Mini-Normal 1713: Mystery Mansion Mafia (GAME OVER)

[absta101]

@Accountant

- Can you answer my question in 146 please.

[SilverWolf]

Back on topic,

I think Wolfie and Expedience (Expy?) are being silly in thinking of this as some daring gambit. It's a simple joke that plenty of people as either alignment do all the time. "Practically confirmed town" is ridiculous.

It's weird that the gambit language has been repeated so much. And Wolfie looks like she has a lot more experience, it's weird that she'd buy into this kind of logic if she were actually trying to figure out if Slandaar were town or scum.

VOTE: SilverWolf

Here you seem to be taking both myself and Expedience quite seriously. Nowhere did you say you think Expedience was joking. You used the words "daring gambit" and "practically confirmed town", attributed those words to me when Expedience said them, then voted me over it because of my experience which is a shitty reason but w/e.

@Akarin: Why are you voting for Silverwolf while she was actually critisizing the votes on Slandaar and Accountant?

I'm voting Wolfie because her reasoning looks the least real. I think the votes on Slandaar and Accountant over their "gambits" were silly, I'm not disagreeing with Wolfie on that, but the way she reacted to the votes on them, not calling out the votes as based on bad reasoning, but acting like Accountant and Slandaar were clearly town (rather than not particularly scummy) doesn't read like actually trying to figure out alignment. It reads like needing to have reads, and possibly knowing their alignment.

Joking:

VOTE: Accountant

Slandaar is practically confirmed Town, no scum would pull such an obscene gambit.

Does not look like joking:

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

He could do it as scum but it doesn't seem likely right now. The banter between him and Accountant seemed pretty carefree and easygoing. I see nothing scummy there and still don't understand the wagon on either one of them. I've seen town claims in several games and every single time the person has been town. I've also seen the joking scum claims and most times they are town but not always. However, I'm not seeing anything scummy in Accountant's play right now.

This is wrong. I did actually call out those votes as bad. Here 49, here 72 and here 77 are some examples. So you are lying straight up here. Plus, I never said I knew their alignment. I said it was probably not scum. That's a misrep.

I'm also not a fan of Wolfie's post 90, looking up a bunch of random games where town claims town is useless (Accountant's "Plural of anecdote isn't data" comment), not to mention trivially easy for scum to do, but also oddly defensive. Likewise the insistence on first hand accounts only.

Are they games where they did it right away at the beginning of the game and also games you played in as well as saw it first hand like mine were? If you can find that, I'll completely retract my statement all together.

Way too committed to defending this bad read.

I aggressively defend myself as either alignment. This isn't scummy. I already explained this in detail to accountant regarding why I was thinking the way I was and you harping on this one piece of my ISO and ignoring anything else in the game, tells me you are looking for ways to justify a faulty scumread.

This feels like a scum push but I will readily admit I have a tendency to OMGUS people who push scumreads on me as town so I'm going to step back and consider this. Especially since I have a stronger scumread on Accountant and a much stronger one on Expedience.

I have to go for awhile. I'll be back later today or tomorrow.

[Akarin]

Why are you reading him as town? Especially since you didn't like my read on him at the beginning of the game. What happened between that and now to make you think he's town?

Not liking the reasoning for your read is irrelevant. I'm townreading him because of the way is post 105 explains his initial posts, more importantly the timing of it. He doesn't explain it right away when people start to question him, he waits to see how people take stances around him, which fits with his explanation and makes sense if he's really trying to get reads from it. He also thought he was going to replace out at that point but takes time to give town and scum reads, which scum doesn't need or want to do.

I also particularly like this post:

Alright I will try and explain this as best I can.

Wanderer says this:

I said his tone was the same as his tone in another game where he was town.

Now, I find this just wrong, it is the wrong way to defend my opening post. The tone is the same as my town tone so it's null doesn't really tackle the content of the post and the reasons people were voting me. I have a hard time imagining town thinking in this way.

Also; I find it hard to believe town can take my tone, from my first post, and think it is the same as a game where I was completely serious.

VOTE: Wanderer

I am not that confident but this seems the best to me.

The thought process says town to me, I don't see scum coming at Wanderer from this angle. He could put his vote down without questioning anyone's reasons for defending him.

[SilverWolf]

I'm voting Wolfie because her reasoning looks the least real. I think the votes on Slandaar and Accountant over their "gambits" were silly, I'm not disagreeing with Wolfie on that, but the way she reacted to the votes on them, not calling out the votes as based on bad reasoning, but acting like Accountant and Slandaar were clearly town (rather than not particularly scummy) doesn't read like actually trying to figure out alignment. It reads like needing to have reads, and possibly knowing their alignment.

LOL, no I'm not going to let you get away with this. I said many times it was probably not scum and not scummy. I never acted like they were clearly town. In fact, I said they were NOT towncleared and that my opinion on their alignment is subject to change. I even DID change my mind on Accountant.

So yeah, you didn't really read my ISO and are just making shit up here. Not really liking this.

[Davsto]

Sorry guys, I've been kinda neglecting this game. I'm gonna read through it again sometime in the next 24 hours and see what I can get from it.

[Akarin]

@Akarin

How does SilverWolf saying "prob not scum" translate to her thinking they are clearly town?

Um, just read the other posts I quoted and Wolfie's other posts in that period. Her read appears much stronger than your 3 out-of-context words imply.

[SilverWolf]

@Akarin

How does SilverWolf saying "prob not scum" translate to her thinking they are clearly town?

Um, just read the other posts I quoted and Wolfie's other posts in that period. Her read appears much stronger than your 3 out-of-context words imply.

He used those words because that's exactly what I said. It's not out of context as all. YOU are the one saying I'm acting like they are clearly town when I am not.

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum

. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

Performer. What exactly were you hoping to learn from those particular RQS questions and how would that help you determine anyone's alignment this game?

[SilverWolf]

Bottom line Akarin is your read is crap. It's based on misinterpreting my posts in a way that looks like you are deliberately trying to paint something scummy that isn't.

Akarin, Accountant, Expedience.

Calling it now. Game solved. Thanks for playing everyone. Hope to see you in a future game soon.

[Akarin]

Chill.

Those are your words, but the rest of your post

"really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits"

and your other posts around that time imply a much stronger read.

What's with this over-the-top flurry of accusatory posts?

[Akarin]

@Expi; I'm not here to discuss my playstyle. If you think it's so terrible try WOT1-ing me.

Mario, this doesn't actually address Expy's point:

I feel that Mario's aggression is excessive, unwarranted, and anti-Town. He looks very hard to find scummy things, and to some degree he's probably seeing things that aren't there. The repeated stabbing of his quote + quip seems like he's trying to appear very pro-Town by filling up pages and raising his post count, while perhaps saving some of his point for later posts and, uh, not nonuple-posting would actually help more. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this in some ways and it's just an aspect of his playstyle when he replaces in, but it nevertheless makes him lean scum for me. I support the wagon against him.

He said maybe it was just your playstyle, but it's not an unreasonable read. He does point out a possible scum motivation, but you just dismiss this very offhandedly. Do you think your play this game matches your other games, or is it different somehow?

And I agree, the giant quote wall spam makes the game much harder to read, and your aggression is over the top. Please try to tone it down for the sake of keeping everyone engaged and the game pleasant to read.

[Akarin]

Wolfie's catchup posts (207-210) look better to me.

Did you find Mario's logic similar in the town game(s?) you played with him? Did he do things like the inconsistency with his performer read as town? Was he more careful in his logic as scum, or just more lurky?

[MarioManiac4]

@Expi; I'm not here to discuss my playstyle. If you think it's so terrible try WOT1-ing me.

Mario, this doesn't actually address Expy's point:

I feel that Mario's aggression is excessive, unwarranted, and anti-Town. He looks very hard to find scummy things, and to some degree he's probably seeing things that aren't there. The repeated stabbing of his quote + quip seems like he's trying to appear very pro-Town by filling up pages and raising his post count, while perhaps saving some of his point for later posts and, uh, not nonuple-posting would actually help more. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this in some ways and it's just an aspect of his playstyle when he replaces in, but it nevertheless makes him lean scum for me. I support the wagon against him.

He said maybe it was just your playstyle, but it's not an unreasonable read. He does point out a possible scum motivation, but you just dismiss this very offhandedly. Do you think your play this game matches your other games, or is it different somehow?

And I agree, the giant quote wall spam makes the game much harder to read, and your aggression is over the top. Please try to tone it down for the sake of keeping everyone engaged and the game pleasant to read.

Maybe I turned off when he started denouncing my play like he had the right to judge everything!
Maybe aggression is the best way to find scum!
Maybe being engaged, scumhunting and answering questions isn't "GIANT QUOTE WALLE SPAMM!!!!1"

[Akarin]

I actually really like Wolfie's case on Expy in post 213.

Her responses to me also fit with the "overreact-as-town" tendency she mentions, and reading them through slowly now, rather than quickly after I post, they feel like genuine emotion to me. And the later posts do show more townish thinking than I was seeing in that first post.

I'll sheep this: VOTE: Expedience

But seriously, Wolfie, follow through with your own advice to yourself and step away from the computer when you start to feel that way. It was really hostile and off-putting. I explicitly wasn't reading your ISO, I was slowly reading through the game and commenting on things.

I'm no longer scumreading Wolfie.

[Akarin]

Mario, do you want to actually answer my question?

[MarioManiac4]

Mario, do you want to actually answer my question?

This matches my general playstyle. As scum I try to imitate it.

[Akarin]

Thank you.

And yeah, I know everyone is going to try to imitate their town play as scum. I just wanted to know if you felt you were being any more aggressive or otherwise different from usual this game.

[Wanderer-nl]

I've been following the conversation. I have some thoughts I need to unscramble before I post them. I'm not sure I like Akarin's change of mind like that on Silverwolf, I need to make up my mind on a couple of things.

@Silverwolf: About Mario and his Performer-issues, it should have been clear from my questions to Mario that he was confused about the slot. I'm townleaning both of you.

@Slandaar: I remembered it that way. It was subjective. How is that scummy?

Going to bed, will post more when I'm properly woken up.

[Accountant]

Very sorry to everyone here, and I dearly hope it's not going to happen again, but something unexpected in real life has come up involving my education, and since (to be perfectly frank) I value my future over my mafiascum games, I'm going to have to

@MOD: ask for a replacement

.

Lots of apologies for this, I assure you this is a once-off and I don't make a habit of flaking during my games.

[SilverWolf]

Wolfie's catchup posts (207-210) look better to me.
Did you find Mario's logic similar in the town game(s?) you played with him? Did he do things like the inconsistency with his performer read as town? Was he more careful in his logic as scum, or just more lurky?

Yep, he was all over the place and had weird logic as town. I questioned him and scumread him for it in that game. In the scumgame he was lurky and much more careful. However, this is a small sample size so I'm going to be looking at a few more games to make sure my read is correct but he just looks like reckless town to me right now.

But seriously, Wolfie, follow through with your own advice to yourself and step away from the computer when you start to feel that way. It was really hostile and off-putting.

I tend to get aggressive sometimes with people scumreading me. Part of it is just personality and part of it I actually have my reasons for. The reactions to my aggressiveness can help me further read the person doing it. Like, you and Accountant backed off so I'm noting it and seeing if it is because you are town who realized you were wrong about me or scum backing off because you don't want to deal with my push back. I'll just have to watch you for now and see how Accountant's replacement behaves. I am scumreading Expedience and I don't think you'd sheep vote him if you were scum together with him so that's something to consider but only if Expedience is scum. And FWIW, I am really trying hard to tone down my anger/defensiveness from what it has been in other games. It's not really alignment indicative for me but I do realize it's been over the top in the past so I am working on it. There's no reason for me to make the game miserable for anyone.

[Expedience]

OK, So I lost a post, dammit, I hate when that happens. Shit. OK, I'll try again. LOL

I didn't really like 177 from Expedience because it strongly appears that he is trying to direct the conversation away from subjects he doesn't like and onto subjects he does want discussed. It comes off as very manipulative and his response to All Alone's vote was just to kind of use pretty words to say he's trying to stoke conversation when in reality, he's not really.

Could you please give examples of how I'm redirecting conversation? I don't believe that I am doing this.

Perhaps you're right, maybe I wasn't trying to stoke conversation in my first 3 serious posts. If this was the case, do you think you could make the same case from my current ISO? As I have previously insisted, it's unreasonable to judge me based off what I haven't said in the very early stages of the game because there's not a lot that I have said.

That was a mistype. It should be "where town claimed town", which means that since scum would know you played in games where town claimed town, they would be incentivized to claim town to seem town themselves.

I'd say this is a

very

weak argument, since SilverWolf didn't say that she believed this to be a Town tell before Slandaar made his comment. It would require scum to both read the games that she mentioned, and also require SilverWolf noticing and mentioning it. If SilverWolf and Slandaar were both scum, I really don't think they'd be this blatant.

Nevertheless, I don't think Town are any more likely to claim Town during RVS / RQS than scum.

I agree with Expi here.
However, one think I'd like to ask is; why did the vote go onto Performer rather than Expedience?
Is it because Expi's scum and therefore the other was chosen to be wagoned?

Wait, do you mean "why did the vote go onto SilverWolf rather than Expedience?". Otherwise I don't get what you're saying. If you meant SilverWolf, it was because SilverWolf was a more experienced player and hence her judgement would be expected to be better than mine. That was implied in #67.

Why are you answering for Accountant here? This is another attempt to control the flow of conversation and I don't understand why you feel the need to interject yourself so many times into these conversations and defend or answer for others. Another example of this is 88 where you are interjection yourself into the comment I made to Wanderer. I've seen this kind of play from scum before where they kind of soft defend people like this and I do notice you are soft defending Accountant and Wanderer.

I don't see any problem with this. If I have an opinion on something, I will not withhold it simply because I'm not part of the conversation. If I have something relevant (opinions, clarification) to contribute, I will do so regardless of whether or not it constitutes a defense or answering for someone else. Mario made a mistake in his recount of events so I wanted to clarify this, I also decided to answer his question given how it didn't seem specifically intended for Accountant and I had an opinion on the matter.

I do think you are likely to be scum here. What helps solidifies this for me is this exchange. 181 you say you don't want to vote. Account and Wanderer make these posts 184 and 185 and suddenly you are ready to vote for Mario.

I mean if you were town, you could tell them to go take a flying leap and you'll vote whenever you want for whoever you want. But instead you instantly caved to the pressure and voted-that strikes me as appeasy.

VOTE: Expedience

Of course I made that vote to appease them! Is there anything wrong with this? By voting, I showed that I wasn't afraid of voting for Mario like Accountant and Wanderer implied that I was. There was nothing to be gained from being stubborn and telling them to fuck off, and I imagine you'd call that scummy if I did this anyway.

[Wanderer-nl]

No.

I mixed it up because I agreed with the points, but didn't realise that Akarin had placed her vote on someone that hadn't actually done that.

So Akarin placed her vote on the 'wrong person' so to say, that's not something you'd want to get into?

@All Alone: What's fake in 177? (Pointing to your 178)

@Grayfox: Where did you go? I want your thoughts on the recent Silverwolf vs Akarin and also the earlier Accountant vs Mario vs Silverwolf please.

@Performer: I still have a question out for you in 211.

@Expedience: Appeasing town is usually seen as a scumtell. You did show you were afraid to vote Mario by not voting for him initially. You voting for him after me and Accountant-parrot said something about that reinforces that for me.
What is your read on Accountant?

I was going to look into Accountant as well but she asked to be replaced. I'll post my thoughts on her slot after Expedience explained his read on Accountant.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar: I remembered it that way. It was subjective. How is that scummy?

Well I am looking at it from your point of view and trying to see why you would think this if you are town so let's think about it together!

If you made a post which was a reaction test do you think my response of 'Same tone as town game' seems like a town response?

What about when other players have voted for you/called you town for the post?

Do you think it is a productive response if I say it is not intended to mean I think you are town, but just that nothing you have done is suspicious because the tone seems the same?

I find it a very weird response. I find it to not tackle the points being made by others and I think you misread the tone anyways. All these things point to you being scum.

The misread of the tone I find strange. You are reading a post you say you didn't take seriously as a post which is the same tone as my serious tone. I don't really understand that and I feel there is something wrong in there. If you tone read the reaction test as my serious tone then you obviously believe I am being serious yet said otherwise.

[Wanderer-nl]

Everyone has their own way of talking, be it serious be it playful, doesn't matter. Use of words, grammar, sentence construction; that's all unique to anyone. I recognized yours. Maybe style would have been more accurate than tone.
Your reactiontest was serious, right? That means you were serious with your opening post even though you weren't being serious about being conftown by making that opening post.

[SilverWolf]

Of course I made that vote to appease them! Is there anything wrong with this? By voting, I showed that I wasn't afraid of voting for Mario like Accountant and Wanderer implied that I was. There was nothing to be gained from being stubborn and telling them to fuck off, and I imagine you'd call that scummy if I did this anyway.

And what if Accountant and Wanderer were scum trying to get you to vote a mislynch?

This appeasy nature of your vote is extremely scummy. You don't have to tell them to fuck off but being stubborn about your vote there would of looked more town to me than immediately placing the vote when they point out it's weird that you didn't. I mean, why say you don't want to vote and then do it right away because a couple people didn't like that you didn't vote? Appeasement is very scummy. Town doesn't appease. Town doesn't give a shit what they look like for the most part. Scum do.

Also, I've noticed that grayfoxxxx, All Alone, and Performer all have about 6 or 7 posts and none of them say much of anything. It would not surprise me at all, if there were scum in this group. Making yourself unreadable is also scummy.

[Akarin]

No.

I mixed it up because I agreed with the points, but didn't realise that Akarin had placed her vote on someone that hadn't actually done that.

So Akarin placed her vote on the 'wrong person' so to say, that's not something you'd want to get into?

I think this is worth Davsto getting into. I placed my vote on exactly the person I intended to, I was specifically talking about Wolfie's town read in the post he sheeped.