Mini 1741: Day 3

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Zulfy
So, what made you change your vote immediately from one post to the next?

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Frozen Angel I like this better, but explaining why is hard. Frozen's language feels like she's keeping herself at arm's length from her reasoning. RC's vote 'can simply be considered a spam vote' -> Sure, you can consider it, but is it?
Says Zulfy's vote on RC is scummy, doesn't vote Zulfy (and is voting with Zulfy).
idk. Bad gut vibes!

[Zoronos]

I agree completely! Now answer my question, please.

What was your question?

[Zoronos]

+1. We're on page 3 bro. Not that hard to go look. Why'd you call me out on my voteswitch?

That's a dumb question. I was hoping you'd have a better one. Because you did something scummy.
On page one you changed your vote with no intervening posts and without the person you were voting on even posting. So the only reasoning I could see for a swap was blind bandwagoing, since there was no other information available. Increasing pressure pointlessly on page 1 is foolish.

'Why would you bother scumhunting' is a really bad question.

[Zoronos]

@Anen
Are you saying you think Math is scum?
Your sense of humour is a bit opaque at times, and I want to make sure I'm not misinterpreting a joke.

[Zoronos]

You're asking for a hammer, on a player that isn't at L-1, when there are players that haven't even posted non-RVS-posts.
Seriously?
Can we not purposefully play poorly. That would be swell.
ty.

[Zoronos]

So he's town?

Who are you referring to?
If you're referring to Lhix, I have no read on him other than 'posting like a dummy', which should not to be construed as 'I think he's town'. I find it hard to get a good read when people are purposefully playing to a VI stereotype so I'd rather he not play like a troll.
Also turboing down D1 is dumb, imo, so let's not do it.

[Zoronos]

Who the heck is heart? >.<
I feel completely lost.

[Zoronos]

I don't know. Perhaps I'll know more after reading some of the forthcoming posts.

I ask because one of his (her?) earlier posts struck me as a bit off-putting and I'd like to know if you saw the same / felt the same way. It was an early post though, so it may have been nothing.
Can you expand on this thought at all?

[Zoronos]

@Anen
Hmmm... that is not what I was seeing from Math that was making me suspicious.
I was wondering / hoping if you saw the same thing I did, which would give me some confidence I wasn't keying onto noise. But you did not.

[Zoronos]

@Anen
Hmmm... that is not what I was seeing from Math that was making me suspicious.
I was wondering / hoping if you saw the same thing I did, which would give me some confidence I wasn't keying onto noise. But you did not.

I would be interested to hear what you found suspicious about me.

I disliked this post:

That suggests to me that both you and Zulfy are playing pro-town, and you at least are more likely to be town (which isn't saying much at this point in the game when there is no information to go). Scum hide best in the long term when they are considered to be scum hunting but they try to avoid drawing suspicion on themselves and certainly won't do that in order to help town.

a) Those pronouncements of pro-town play seemed out of line with actions. I don't think Zulfy was playing pro-town, so coming up with a town read on him / her at that juncture struck me as not in line with the facts (aka maybe scum with bonus info).
b) I find 'Scum would play like x' posts made in a vacuum to be mildly suspicious. Speculation about play vs 'Scum play like X and person Y is doing that ergo Y is scum'. The later is towny, and the former scummy. (I hope I am communicating this well, if it is confusing let me know.)

It's a bit thin, so I was wondering if anyone else was seeing the same thing, or if I was jumping at a shadow.

[Zoronos]

Well all I can talk about is experience of what works from being a mediocre fish in a rather small pond. Different strategies evolve in different forums. This forum is certainly different to what I am used to and I am still finding my feet.

Zulfry quickly became scummy after those posts, but performing his first random vote and then changing it 7 minutes later when he didn't need to right at the beginning of the game to get the conversation started in my own personal humble opinion is a pro-town move. Regardless of where you play, town always starts day 1 with very little or no information and needs to generate it by whatever means necessary.

I was afraid I was communicating poorly, and I think that fear has been realized. I think you'ved missed my point. I'm not saying your experiences are wrong, I'm saying how you used / expressed them was scummy.
To give an example to make this clearer:
"I have seen scum lurk before, because it means they don't have to post / scum hunt, and Input is lurking. Ergo, Input is scum" <- This is a towny comment. (Disclaimer: I chose a random name, please do not construe this as an actual judgement).
"Scum tend to lurk!" <- Scummy comment; it's active-lurking. It looks like scum hunting, but doesn't identify specific scum in this case, so is a good way to appear to scum hunt without actually doing so (hence scumminess).

Anyway, it was probably not useful to clarify since we've moved on from that point and you're actually making judgements about people now but w/e. For posterity.

So, why do you think Zulfry is scummy?

[Zoronos]

His play since that consecutive vote is not consistent with his excuse for getting us beyond RVS. He hasn't really been analysing what people say and looking for any tells, which he would if his initial excuse for two consecutive votes was genuine. And above all, stating an intent to hammer at this stage of the game when someone isn't even at L-1.

What did you think about what Lhinx wrote about KS scum slipping?
143 / 145

[Zoronos]

I wanted Math's opinion on what you wrote.

[Zoronos]

Fake Edit:
Meant to quote this. Pretend I did that.

His play since that consecutive vote is not consistent with his excuse for getting us beyond RVS. He hasn't really been analysing what people say and looking for any tells, which he would if his initial excuse for two consecutive votes was genuine. And above all, stating an intent to hammer at this stage of the game when someone isn't even at L-1.

What did you think about what Lhinx wrote about KS scum slipping?
143 / 145

I have actually explained everything, including the "intent to hammer" and scum-baiting. As I said, it was meant to bring out something with substance to analyze (as everyone is doing now) including the false votes. I explained this several pages back in great detail. I would argue the efforts of such have brought us to this point, even when we were still muddling around in RVS stage. You can reread my explanation if you wish, but it feels like my words are being glossed over.

[Zoronos]

Could you explain what exactly the scumslip is please because I didn't pick up on it. Thanks.

I don't know what it is. That's part of why I'm trying to get the players involved to talk about it.
I'd very much like Elyse to weigh in, since her questioning provoked the exchange.

[Zoronos]

What I see the "scumslip" as is this post:

@TheLhix - how long have you been playing mafia for?

which is in reaction to TheLhix claiming scum with keyser.

If keyser is town, he knows that TheLhix is lying, either in a joking manner or a reaction test or something. It would make sense for him to brush it off because he knows it's not true and not worth engaging.

It reads more as keyser being TheLhix's scumbuddy and being like, "are you really that inexperienced that you would claim scum with me on day 1?" That's what RC meant and why I am townreading him because I read it the same way.

I'm not sure it's a scumslip but it's something to note if keyser or TheLhix ever flips.

That's also why I questioned TheLhix about the slip because if he's pushing keyser as scum for that, he would also have to be scum.

So, if Keyser were scum in this situation, I'd expect his scumbros to either be on the bus already, or trying to push an alternative lynch (or have their votes on the bus while also pushing alternatives).
If Keyser is the scum, do you think anyone fits this behavior pattern?
Basically, when scum are on the hook, I expect the behavior of other scum to change. They do things to try to save their team mates (or bury them for cred). Do you feel any of those behaviors are manifest this game, and if so, who / how?

[Zoronos]

@RC / Garmr
I have no idea what the two of you are discussing.

VOTE: InputPrimary

[Zoronos]

@RC
I want to interject into this conversation, mostly because I don't understand at all what you two are arguing about.

What are your thoughts on our less-active participants? Scorpious, Input, and Jake (who is talking more, but doesn't strike me as super substantive at the moment). Opinions? Disagree on my bucketing of them? Have others you think need to be in this grouping?

[Zoronos]

Town are hypocrites all the time. It's not a tell.
I wish it was, but it just isn't.

[Zoronos]

@RC
I want to interject into this conversation, mostly because I don't understand at all what you two are arguing about.

What are your thoughts on our less-active participants? Scorpious, Input, and Jake (who is talking more, but doesn't strike me as super substantive at the moment). Opinions? Disagree on my bucketing of them? Have others you think need to be in this grouping?

RC!

[Zoronos]

IP looks pretty towny.

I'm leaning scum on Jake but it's not a strong read.

Really have nothing on Scorp.

IP looks pretty towny? I had him on the scummier side of the lurker-pack. Him and Scrop were the two that I thought were scummier of the three and Jake townier.

[Zoronos]

Do you think I'm playing anti-town? What is your read on me right now?

Yup. You're making a lot of noise, but not doing much to actually scum hunt or push the game forwards.
You're in nulls-ville on my reads list at the moment.
I'm more interested in some other folks, and I want to see what Anen says next since he promised a To Be Continued on his last post.

[Zoronos]

Page 11-13

So, if Keyser were scum in this situation, I'd expect his scumbros to either be on the bus already, or trying to push an alternative lynch (or have their votes on the bus while also pushing alternatives).
If Keyser is the scum, do you think anyone fits this behavior pattern?
Basically, when scum are on the hook, I expect the behavior of other scum to change. They do things to try to save their team mates (or bury them for cred). Do you feel any of those behaviors are manifest this game, and if so, who / how?

I know that these questions were directed at Elyse - but what were your

own

thoughts?

About to hop on a plane, so the brief version is that I don't think I'm seeing those behaviors. Which implies to me a town lynch, or some really odd scum strategy.
Or the scum just don't care one of them was at -1

[Zoronos]

We should vote Scorp to death.
Also lurkerInput.

RC, thoughts on Anen? I was initially leaning towny, thinking he saw the same things I did from early math. Then after I asked him what he saw, and it didn't match what I was seeing, he changed his explanation to match my thoughts. That gave me scummy vibes, since I'm worried scum Anen might just be parroting my opinions to pocket. Maybe im being a little over paranoid.

[Zoronos]

Not really.
You post more, so it's easier to interject with questions.

[Zoronos]

And you won't like the next part, I know, but:
Where did I parrot you?
Despite of that question (!!!!!!!), I parrot many times, regardless of my alignment.

Also, why has the game slowed down?

283, you specifically noted you were thinking the same things I was. I understand it's not a strong alignment tell. I was more trying to see what, if anything, RC would do with it.
I consider 'He's thinking the same as me and saying the same kinds of things I am' to be a strong town tell, if done before I post it. If done after, it could be either a town tell, or an attempt to pocket. I've gotten a little more wary about the latter after getting taken for a ride by someone doing it (on a game off site, long completed, don't worry. Not talking about ongoing anything.).\

As to slowness, it's a holiday in the United States. (I know I'm out of town and low availability.)

[Zoronos]

We should vote Scorp to death.

why?

You had just prodged and I wanted to see how people (you and others) would respond to a pronouncement we should vote you.

To be more verbose:
1) You haven't done a ton of scum hunting this game. You've posted a bunch of town pronouncements, and a couple scum, but not done a lot of followup or investigation.
2) I had thought you were on the lurkier end of the game, but now looking back at your ISO you've posted a lot more than I realized. Which probably ties back to (1).

I haven't seen a lot of legwork from you so far, basically. It's easy to just go 'Yeah, that guy's town, that guy's scum' as scum; reasoning and investigative legwork are harder to fake. So, show me those things. (I understand turkey day slowness. I'm out of town myself and getting by from my ipad)

[Zoronos]

It may be anti town, but is it pro scum?

Those things aren't the same.

[Zoronos]

This is inane. RC, self voting is dumb. If you have a solid case for Math and / or Zulfy, make it.
I am leaning townish on Zulfy at the moment, so you'll have to convince me of that one. Given the opportunity to float, he is actively attempting to get his opinion heard (even if he's kind being obnoxious about it / how he's doing it), so explain to me why my town lean on him is wrong.

[Zoronos]

It's anti town. It's not alignment indicative

Also this.

[Zoronos]

Our last game you (VT) counterclaimed me (Doctor), in order to save a scum that I was counterclaiming, and so got the Cop lynched.
I stopped paying attention after that (and left the site for months).

[Zoronos]

Sorry, that was @RC. Didn't realize we were on a new page.

[Zoronos]

In fact, I can't recall me doing so... ever.

It was in 1692. You fake claimed roleblocker to save the scum that had falsly claimed Hider.
Anen was the mod.

[Zoronos]

Are pasts games really so hugely relevant to the current one?

They aren't. He brought up past games as reason why we should just take him on faith in this game that his scum reads are right.
I don't take him on faith, though I respect that he sometimes has good insights. But I'd really like to see the reasoning behind those insights before blindly agreeing to go along with them.

[Zoronos]

(expired on 2015-12-05 13:00:00)

(Sat Dec 5 @ 12:00:00 PM EST)

VOTECOUNT 1.08

• (2)
  TheLhix
  — Scorpius, Frozen Angel
  (1)
  Zulfy
  — Elyse
  (2)
  Mathilda
  — Aneninen
  (1)
  Frozen Angel
  — Keyser Söze
  (3)
  Keyser Söze
  — InputPrimary, Jake from State Farm, Garmr
  (0)
  Jake from State Farm
  —
  (1)
  Garmr
  — TheLhix
  (0)
  Scorpious
  —
  (0)
  Elyse
  —
  (1)
  InputPrimary
  — Zoronos
  (0)
  Zoronos
  —
  (3)
  RadiantCowbells
  — Mathilda, Zulfy, RadiantCowbells
  (0)
  Aneninen
  —
  
  (0)
  [NOT VOTING]
  —
  
  With
  13

  alive
  , it takes
  7

  votes
  to lynch.

Keyser Soeze is being replaced
Frozen Angel is not in the game.
Scorpius is being prodded

Is this VC correct? It shows two votes on Math, but only one name.

[Zoronos]

Captain Planet's

gone

Tbh this makes KS lean scummier in my mind. Which is probably unfair of me and unfair to a replacement, but it is really easy to construct an 'under pressure, stop giving content, then silently replace out' narrative.

Posting that was probably unhelpful.

[Zoronos]

Anyway, I'd appreciate some more votes on Input. Dudes done nothing all game and needs some pressure if he won't provide content without prompting.

[Zoronos]

Anyway, I'd appreciate some more votes on Input. Dudes done nothing all game and needs some pressure if he won't provide content without prompting.

You realize he's been on v/la since the 24th right? Kind of weak to attack a player on v/la. I do agree he needs to post more but dude, cmon

I missed that, actually.

[Zoronos]

Don't we kinda have to vote Lhix now? If nothing else to prevent us looking like total morons..

Can you support this assertion based on things other than the scum claim?

I'm really cautious about an attitude of 'welp, gotta lynch it nothing we can do'. I understand the arguments made by other posters re: whether or not keyser acted scummy in response to it, but the inevitability angle strikes me as off.
If we lynch Lhix, and that slot flips town, this post / attitude deserves a lot of scrutiny, imo.

[Zoronos]

(Addendum to previous: If we lynch Lihx and she flips scum, the quoted post is not alignment indicating and doesn't make scorp any more or less scummy, imo.)

[Zoronos]

Cause it's on your scum buddy keyser. He's closest to a lynch already anyway. Lhix already confirmed he and keyser are scum together. Day 2 we can lynch you or lhix. Day 3 the other and it'll be a cheap win, but I'll still take it

I'm going to be really disappointed if this is the actual solve to this game.

[Zoronos]

Can someone summarize the case against Firebringer?

Firebringer made a post saying he wasn't sure who KlingonCelt was subbing in for.
Jake stated it was obvious from the replacement thread who KlingonCelt would be subbing in for. Ergo, the only way for Firebringer to be confused would be for there to be another thread where the replacement was announced, and for that thread to lack the data on who KlingonCelt was subbing in for. Since no such public thread exists, theoretically, that thread must be the scum thread. Ergo, Firebring and Klingon are scum.

Have I got the right of it Jake?

[Zoronos]

585 and 593 are the relevant posts.

[Zoronos]

I feel bad for not contributing more to this discussion, but this is such anti-climatic scumcatch / game result. So I'm spinning in circles waiting for the replacements.
I just don't want it to be true. I'm not going to argue against it in the absence of evidence, but ugh, boring.

[Zoronos]

I'm seriously worried. There are two blocks forming and for me one looks much scummier. But what if we're wrong? And some or all scums are amongst those who are townread or under the radar?

imo, Scorp. Maybe Input.
The people that are shoulder shrugging and agreeing with the various lynch targets.
The town mindset is responsibility seeking (i.e. Listen to me, <x> is scum / town) and the scum mindset is responsibility avoidanct (I guess we can lynch X, but it's not my fault regardless).
I called this out previously.

[Zoronos]

Zoronos, Input is town.

Disagree, he's null *at best*.
His casing is thin, and I want to see leg work out of him before I make any better assessment than that.

Honestly Zoro it is a terrible mindset. If we continue to play like this we will allow the mafia to control the game. It is only through combined scum hunting that we will begin to unravel the game. Due to the light flow there is no need for anyone to do anything unless they are a target.

Pedit Kling is usually scum I the games I play with him so I was teasing.

The best way out of our current spiral / vortex, imo, is for the thinly veneered personal attacks to stop, and people to get to deep casing.
A climate of shallow casing is always pro-scum.

[Zoronos]

I'd actually rather lynch Scorp than Input at this point, but I feel like I really need more / deeper content out of Input to bucket him anywhere near accurately, so there my vote stays!
(As an FYI for anyone trying to track who I think is scummiest in the absence of a list post)

[Zoronos]

Pretty sure she was responding to 740, and my comments about responsibility seeking vs avoidant mind-sets.

[Zoronos]

Math - Who do you feel is the scum, and can you explain the case to me for why that person / people are scum?

[Zoronos]

>.<
Can we not bait modkills please by violating game rules.

[Zoronos]

RadiantCowbell first got my attention because of his opportunistic vote on me. By that I mean he was sheeping someone else doing the scum hunting so he could also look pro-active. Notice that I don't think Aneninen is scum who is just as adamant as RC that I am scum? That's because Aneninen was actually scum hunting. RC never did any scum hunting. He just picked people he wanted to vote on and then found a reason over time (e.g. Elyse, me etc). RC also refuses to answer any of my questions. Why is that? As far as I can see it's to avoid further suspicion.

InputPrimary also came to my attention with an opportunistic vote on me similar to RC. Again he's like the two above in that he doesn't lay out a logical case for why he thinks someone is scum, he just parrots the same vague popular accusations as everyone else.

Jake is an active lurker who is trying to keep his head down and not commit himself like he normally does when he scum hunts. He doesn't bother to explain himself and isn't interested in hearing alternatives. That could be anti-town play but it's also a useful tactic as scum because it means that he's not letting his reads be scrutinised. It allows him to cast shade as and when he pleases. Yes I get that he said that he's going to play differently this time, and frankly that's quite a relief. And he also said that he posts on the phone. But even when your posts are limited to one sentence, you can still make probing questions.

I really want to reply to this but I'm not sure exactly where to go with it.
I keep coming around to 'opportunistic vote on my slot', while makes sense from a 'I know my alignment!' perspective, the rest of us, well, don't, so it's not super convincing or useful.

So, Jake active lurking. I'm not sure entirely agree. He's making game related posts. They're just... super brief and not particularly deep. I get the rest of the reasoning. He's hammering on his time stamp case pretty hard. Do you feel that case is genuine / not genuine?

[Zoronos]

Oh god I missed half a page of posts. I am basically the worst.

[Zoronos]

Input's f-cking town. Period.

You've said this a couple times and I really don't get where you're coming from on this read.

[Zoronos]

Ah, that's not a useful answer. If he's town, I want to understand why, not a vague hand wave.

[Zoronos]

Welcome to my world

Timestamps just isn't a compelling case.
Give me something based on not-timestamps and I'll believe what you're selling. Right now I (and probably some others) have written off your crusade because of the single point of evidence. So if you really want to convince everybody you're right, sell us on another aspect of it.

[Zoronos]

@Firebringer

Who do you think the scum are?
I am not seeing a lot of active scum hunting and sorting from you so far. I understand that you've dedicated time / word count to arguing with Jake, but I don't see a lot of attempt to sort his alignment based on your discussion with him.
Do you think he's scum or town? Expanding beyond just Jake, give me your opinion on the game please.

[Zoronos]

but whatever, when the game is over and it is revealed these 3 are scum, just give me the credit for catching fire because I don't think FA would have been lynched as she did come off as townie. Though if you do look at her posts around the time keyser was getting votes I could see her reactions coming from a buddy.

If fire is scum, you 100% get the credit.
Basically what I'm trying to say here is that people will make dumb decisions / do dumb stuff and then rather than admit they were wrong and did something manifestly dumb, will lie to cover it up. They will tell face saving lies to avoid appearing stupid, even (or especially) while town. It's not in their best interest, but imo is one of the biggest source of town lies / hypocrisy. In my mind, there's a decent chance this happened here, and is why I'm looking for non replacement-queue-post-reading reasoning for the case.

[Zoronos]

Right now, my thoughts are not on scumhunting, they are on townhunting.

That is absolutely not the question I asked, and responding thusly is scummy for reasons that should be obvious. (But in case they're not: generating Town reads as a scum is trivial, since no lying is required and no huge stretching of the truth. You just declare the people you know are town to be town. It also doesn't generate conflict since most people won't push back on team reads whereas they will on scum reads)

So, second chance. Who do you think are the scum, and why?

[Zoronos]

You're still dodging the question, and that is absolutely not false.

[Zoronos]

You refused to answer who you think the scum are. Twice. That's the literal definition of dodging the question. You even called me scummy for asking it, haha.

Regardless, let's talk about those reads.
What makes you feel those players are scum?

[Zoronos]

I have already mentioned this before, I don't intend to repeat myself all day to you.

Also, feel free to call this a 'dodge'.

Please link to where this was done if you don't feel like reiterating.

[Zoronos]

Can we lynch fire now?

I'm trying to give him a chance to play ball and save himself, but he's angrily knocking the life preserver away and yelling that the person throwing it to him is scum, haha. I don't even know.
I want to frustration vote him, but being obstinate isn't alignment indicating.

[Zoronos]

I am going to say that the scum team is:
Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.

VOTE: Aneninem

Die scum.

I am going to say that the scum team is:Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.VOTE: AneninemDie scum.

What about Aneninem's post made you decide he was scum?

[Zoronos]

Your next post contains good observations, Klingonette. Actually it makes me think that you may be town. In this situation launching a new wagon wouldn't pay off if you were scum.

What about the observations did you like?
I saw some pretty objectionable / non-alignment-indicating stuff in there, so I'm curious what you specifically liked about the case.

[Zoronos]

Eh, I've got him lean town. He's done a couple things that make me question him, but he's not on the whole scummy.
I'm more interested in seeing the thought process behind Firebringer's declaration, because that tells things about Firebringer.

[Zoronos]

lol, I don't even know.
Don't shoot my town reads please and ty.

[Zoronos]

Zulfy - Report results of your claimed NA please.

[Zoronos]

I am somewhat skeptical about a hider, but I guess that's setup speculation and can wait for later.

[Zoronos]

I am somewhat skeptical about a hider, but I guess that's setup speculation and can wait for later.

What?? We know nothing about any other role in this game but for some reason the hider role makes you "skeptical"?

+2 for that one. Good grief. You believe me tho, right?

*facepalm*
Think a little harder.

(No, I don't necessarily believe you, hence the point of expressing skepticism)

[Zoronos]

That said I like your vote on Klingon because that case was bunk and I said so on D1, so carry on.

[Zoronos]

Hmm... apparently I didn't actually say that on D1. Welp. I fail at remembering. Regardless.

[Zoronos]

Questions I still want answers to from D1:

Anen:

Your next post contains good observations, Klingonette. Actually it makes me think that you may be town. In this situation launching a new wagon wouldn't pay off if you were scum.

What about the observations did you like?
I saw some pretty objectionable / non-alignment-indicating stuff in there, so I'm curious what you specifically liked about the case.

Firebringer:

I am going to say that the scum team is:
Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.

VOTE: Aneninem

Die scum.

I am going to say that the scum team is:Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.VOTE: AneninemDie scum.

What about Aneninem's post made you decide he was scum?

[Zoronos]

Hmm... apparently I didn't actually say that on D1. Welp. I fail at remembering. Regardless.

Haha, I did cover it after all, it was in my question to Anen. I am basically the worst at remembering what I write.

[Zoronos]

Zoronos, 915, if it's still important I'll try to remember. It happened long ago and that post links to other posts so the info didn't "come back" instantly as I watched it. (Before you ask, yes, it's normal in my case that I sometimes forget my previous thoughts/observations/whatever. Multiple games, IRL things etc.)

Yes, it's definitely still important. KlingonCelt is currently the vote leader, and your read on her was towny yesterday. So it's kinda relevant to our current game state.
I don't ask questions at random. >.<

I understand forgetting. I thought I had remarked on Klingon's case, couldn't find it when I looked, then found it on accident when bringing forward my unanwered lines of inquiry from yesterday.
I... ummm... did not expect that deadline. ~3 IRL days with no vote counter then the deadline slamdown caught me a bit off guard.

[Zoronos]

That was a rather rapid train shift.

[Zoronos]

It was one vote shift, how was that fast?

Suzune went from 0 votes to 4. That's not a two vote shift.
When a train at L-2 is suddenly exceeded by a zero vote train, that's kinda note worthy.

Gj captain obvious

Yes, thanks.
I tried to explain in greater detail why that bothered me, but I couldn't put it into words right. A combination of gut and dislike of the InputPrimary slot. Something just strikes me as really off, and I can't figure out what. Sorry I couldn't be more insightful about it. My gut doesn't like things.

[Zoronos]

@Anen:

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you're saying here about Zulfy / Klingon. The 263 stuff I don't get. I don't see how that post is alignment indicating, so I don't get the harping on it from Klingon. Also, the language she uses bothers me. She doesn't call it scummy or explain why it's scummy, she just says 'Oh my green god what is post 263". That's almost always a red flag for me.

Zulfy was poking at me early (because I started poking at him), so I know at least part of that accusation doesn't hold. I early thought Zulfy was scummy, but I binned him as 'Lean Town that likes to accuse whoever is suspicious of him'. It's a common newer player
attitude, imo. Selectivity is only a partial scum tell in my mind; D3-D4 selectivity is a lot more meaningful than D1 selectivity. Especially when at least part of it is untrue. I find town players tend to ignore people early if they've already binned them or just don't feel like interacting with them.

[Zoronos]

Kling was at 4 votes first and that didn't seem to bother you. Why not?

Read rest of post. Because InputPrimary.

[Zoronos]

He had?

[Zoronos]

Okay, I thought I was going crazy for a moment.
Basic level is this - Scorp and InputPrimary have done no leg work or scum hunting. Scorp is basically afk other than a few 'Yup guess we have no choice but to lynch X' posts from yesterday, and InputPrimary has shown no legwork and digging for scum.
Alone, these things give me a lean scum.

Going to his vote post:

If Zulfy's town, Mathilda's obviously town. If Zulfy's scum, Mathilda's still probably town because I don't think scum would make this claim about one of his buddies. I was suspicious of her yesterday, I'm not now.

We're not going to get anywhere in this game if we don't see a flip from Suzune or Kling, I prefer Suzune because of the earlier soft claim from Keyser which apparently only I care about.

VOTE: Suzune

This doesn't show any impetus to actual effort to sort out Suzune or Kling's alignments. He just wants one lynched. He's not shown any attempts to dig into the situation and figure out the puzzle, he's just here and voting. *That* bothers me. Combine that with a 0 to L-2 counterwagon, yeah, I'm a little skeptical overall of the train swing.

[Zoronos]

I feel a lot better about Klingon being scum than I do about Suzune. I also want to get Firebringer to answer my f'ing questions though before we just slam down the day, and I want to figure out Anen's perspective, because it seems so foreign to my read on the situation.
I understand you feel you're in a mental rut, but I'm a lot more dubious I guess about the open-and-shut view of the game state.

[Zoronos]

Zoronos, there's no puzzle. Either there was a scum slip or there wasn't. Let's find out by lynching one of them. Come after me tomorrow.

You think the current groupthink on the scum team is exactly correct? You have no doubts? What if there's a mislynch in there, what then?

That *is* the puzzle; who the scum are.
This attitude astounds me.

[Zoronos]

You think the current groupthink on the scum team is exactly correct? You have no doubts? What if there's a mislynch in there, what then?

No, I don't even think it's likely. But I think it's possible and it's clear that some people are never going to drop it until we lynch one of them.

So, who else *might* it be?
Why?

[Zoronos]

Hider's are non-normal (not white listed), right?

[Zoronos]

Right, but if so its the one allowed non-normal role. I haven't quite got my head around the 'normal' guidelines.
Anyway.

[Zoronos]

True.

[Zoronos]

So... is Scorp getting replaced? I wanted answers from him, and he hasn't posted in a week.
Also, Firebringer, I'm going to keep reiterating this until you feel like explaining:

Questions I still want answers to from D1:

Firebringer:

I am going to say that the scum team is:
Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.

VOTE: Aneninem

Die scum.

I am going to say that the scum team is:Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.VOTE: AneninemDie scum.

What about Aneninem's post made you decide he was scum?

[Zoronos]

And I was getting worried I was sitting in here talking to myself.

[Zoronos]

Many replacements. Such lack of posting. Very little scum hunting. Wow.

[Zoronos]

Time for a parrot.

I couldn't help myself but fall into Doge-meme. I'm sorry. I probably deserve a pigeon at this point.

Perhaps you are, there is so little going on in this game, I am just making a new reads list.

Haha, Solipsism ITT.

[Zoronos]

So... is Scorp getting replaced? I wanted answers from him, and he hasn't posted in a week.
Also, Firebringer, I'm going to keep reiterating this until you feel like explaining:

Cool, keep asking

zzzzzz

[Zoronos]

Is Klingon in Keyser's seat? Or was that Firebringer?

[Zoronos]

Okay, I'm trying to think through then why Keyser so loudly soft claimed a PR.
Obviously that doesn't square with a VT claim here, but there are some lines of play where it could make sense, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't running off down a rabbit hole because I got the seats wrong.

[Zoronos]

I am trying to make sense of Keyser's claim behavior and I can't think up any rational line of play where it squares with Klingon's claim.
The best case town line of play I can put Keyser on is that he decided his slot was effectively burnt and going to be mislynched, so he loudly soft claimed hoping he'd be killed in the night; effectively an ersatz bodyguard and clearing off a mislynch bound slot.

(I was asking about Hider because a) I see Hider fake claimed a lot more than I've ever seen it actually in play and b) As you should recall Anen (and Klingon for that matter), if there's a non-white-list role out there, they should be counterclaiming the Hider.)

[Zoronos]

This one, less so. Zero points for originality.
By the way, I won't be making a roleclaim unless the mod confirms the rule regarding claiming scum with another player. If I do roleclaim, we will likely be lynching someone on my wagon.

He didn't claim anything specific.

[Zoronos]

Well, I have to assume my gambit worked since we no killed last night.
I was softing a PR as loud as I could yesterday to pull the NK.
I do have a PR. It was Bulletproof.

[Zoronos]

In case I get killed tonight:
If Suzune / Firebringer turn out to be town, I'd suggest you guys take a hard look at Input, Scorp (whoever replaces him), and Anen.
Input and Anen were the two votes to push off of Kling yesterday and onto Suzune, so if she flips town and I'm not around to do it, ask them some hard questions.

[Zoronos]

Well, I have to assume my gambit worked since we no killed last night.
I was softing a PR as loud as I could yesterday to pull the NK.
I do have a PR. It was Bulletproof.

Can you point out where you soft claimed a PR please?

Thanks

This sequence:

I am somewhat skeptical about a hider, but I guess that's setup speculation and can wait for later.

I am somewhat skeptical about a hider, but I guess that's setup speculation and can wait for later.

What??

We know nothing about any other role in this game

but for some reason the hider role makes you "skeptical"?

+2 for that one. Good grief. You believe me tho, right?

*facepalm*
Think a little harder.

Bolded the relevant part of Zulfy's post, and my response.
Bulletproof and Hider don't play great together, since unless scum have a Strongman it gives a 'free' confirm if the Hider jumps behind the BP early.

It's also not a hard alignment confirm on me regardless, but it's good idea long term after a no-kill night to reveal, so I revealed.

[Zoronos]

I think there is a probability, but that probability is extremely low, maybe in the 5-10% range. I wrote stuff about Zulfy yesterday:

Zulfy was poking at me early (because I started poking at him). I early thought Zulfy was scummy, but I binned him as 'Lean Town that likes to accuse whoever is suspicious of him'. It's a common newer player attitude, imo.

I think the likelyhood is that Zulfy is town, since for him to be scum requires:
a) He's faking a cop claim, and an actual town investigative hasn't counterclaimed him.
b) He's faking a non-white-listed role, and no other non-whitelisted-role exists to counterclaim him.
c) Scum Klingon had to go 'Welp, I'm going down anyway, better write a terrible case on my scumbuddy to throw him clear'. Which is possible, but the balance pushes him towny.

Unless somebody has got something really amazing, I'm okay with my town read on that slot. The paranoid part of my brain has put the scenario together but it's pretty much the longest of long shots.

[Zoronos]

a) He's faking a cop claim, and an actual town investigative hasn't counterclaimed him.

I assume what you mean by this is that there can only be one investigative role in the game, including hider?

I get the sense that there's some format out there that this game is following that I am not aware of.

Hider is a form of Weak-Cop; I mentally bucket it into that same role slot. I would be incredibly skeptical of any cop claim unless scum are incredibly stacked (or it would mean the Hider is lying). There might be other investigative, but I would be thoroughly surprised by another cop.

The 'Normal' game queue has a set of white listed roles, and can only include one role from off that white-list. Hider is off the white list.
I played a game (modded by Aneninen), where KlingonCelt fake claimed Hider as scum, and another player claimed a non-white-listed role, so we got into a situation where one person had to be lying because there couldn't be two non-whitelisted roles.

[Zoronos]

Intent was declared, no sense throwing down the hammer without at least considering what she might claim.
I still want Firebringer to explain what it was in that Anen post that suddenly cause her to gin up a scum read on him.

[Zoronos]

I am going to say that the scum team is:
Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.

VOTE: Aneninem

Die scum.

I am going to say that the scum team is:Aneninem, Suzune, and actually not Kling.VOTE: AneninemDie scum.

What about Aneninem's post made you decide he was scum?

This.

[Zoronos]

I'm bored and going to write more stuff while we wait for Suzune to show up and claim:

-If Suzune flips scum, then I owe Anen an apology and he is very highly likely town. And I was probably overly harsh on Input as well.
-I dislike Jake's replacement-post-ordering case, but not from a 'Jake is scum for making it' perspective, from a 'It feels anti climatic and I don't want to win that way' sense.
-Elyse is lean town regardless of Suzune's flip.
-I don't know what Garmr is up to really. I just read over his ISO again to try to get something better but I'm not really happy with the state of my read. He's not playing at all similar to his play last time I encountered him, but this Garmr is townier than the previous, and the previous was town-aligned, and I am not going to say 'You're not playing to town meta, you're playing townier, ergo you're scum.' because that would be inane. If Suzune flips town, I'd suggest rounding back to 1026 with a critical eye. If she flips scum, then Garmr is prob town.
To answer his question about the Hider coasting behind me (he asked it last night and I missed it overnight apparently) - My BP has a limitation; I'm not forever immune to bullets. Having the Hider sit behind me won't work.

[Zoronos]

1-shot BP, as already claimed.

I have no clue what's going on with these NK's at this point.
I also owe Anen an apology, sorry for being suspicious. The push off from Klingon onto Suzune was a little fishy, but I guess they were both scum so it's fine.

[Zoronos]

They're slightly weaker than a regular cop. They die if they get a hit while using the cop portion of the ability, and have the potential to create a 2-for-1 night kill, so there's a lot of built in potential downside for town.
(That's the linking factor the last two nights; both shots have been into your posted trios, presuming I was indeed shot on N2)

They interact poorly with a lot of setups though, so they're not used often. There isn't much you can put in on the mafia side to deal with it because they're just immune to everything other than having their hide target get shot.

[Zoronos]

Oh man I get to actually hammer!

VOTE: garmr

Yeah, I'm not really sure what's up here.

[Zoronos]

Yay we win town.

Yeah, that should have been rerolled. Kinda anticlimatic for my first game back after months.