Mini 1742: game over

[Wickan]

^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.

VOTE: talah

[Wickan]

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Wickan]

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.

@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"

and leave his vote there anyway.

Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest

Are you referring to me or Titus...?

Sorry, yes, I meant yours to Titus. I'm getting my t-names mixed up (which is quite bad).

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.

Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.

[Wickan]

Thinking further: what is scum-Taly's motivation for jumping off of my wagon, especially without adding pressure to somebody else?

[Wickan]

^Sorry, this question was meant to be directed @ICE

[Wickan]

I mean, "mad" is an exaggeration. I'm not angry. I just think it's worthy of my vote.

RC

didn't

comment on the argument. That's the whole point. He got to look present and support somebody who most seem to agree is town without actually contributing anything.

[Wickan]

Also responding to Wickan here

. It reads to me like you realized how fast this wagon formed on someone and removed your vote because keeping your vote there would make you look bad if he flips town (and if you're scum you probably know he would).

This is assuming way too much, namely that I would actually be lynched. Did you think I was in significant danger of being lynched?

[Wickan]

No, you're not. But I don't think it was unreasonable to anticipate.

[Wickan]

So your argument is that I anticipated that crowd mentality would swing in favour of FA, so I announced that I was townreading her and left my vote there?

You can't have that both ways man.

I'm saying it's not unreasonable to read that talah vs. FA would be seen as town on town. I'm saying that you announced you were townreading her w/ no explanation to seem like you were providing content when in fact you were providing none.

I mean Wiccan's argument is inherently self contradictory.

He's simultaneously arguing that I left my vote there to assist in lynching/pressuring FA but that I also expressed a TR because I expected pressure to relent.

I mean, those two things aren't contradictory. You could've just hedged your bets. If we backed off of FA, you could always retreat to the "it was RVS" defense.

[Wickan]

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

if you where a day vig. who was your target right now?

No

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

[Wickan]

As I said, I'm not quite sure how to read Taly's unvote. It was certainly anti-town thought. However, I think his interactions with ICE are far scummier.

[Wickan]

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

[Wickan]

One of the big hallmarks of scum play is they so frequently admit things are possible, or that something makes sense for them as scum, only to brush it off in the next sentence. Town has

absolutely no business

saying this at all because if you already KNOW you're town then that thought wouldn't even enter your head, let alone "confuse" you enough to post it.

I legitimately feel like this was a substantial scum slip, as it shows insight in to a thought process that someone with a town role PM simply wouldn't have had.

I'm only brushing that possibility off because I know I'm town. So it's natural for me to brush it off. But I recognize that you can't do that.

And you say it would never have occurred to me if I was town. It did and I am, so I don't know what to say about that.

It does feel too early to start arguing about lurkers, particularly since most of the game so far has been during a weekend (and a holiday one in the US to boot).

[Wickan]

@Wickan does your Taly vote mean you think Taly and Ice are both scum, or that Taly is scum trying to buddy up with Ice? If either, why?

The latter.

@Taly: coming in a separate post, as it's a bit longer.

[Wickan]

1)

Yes, I am having difficulty that Ice's thought process is town. Does that mean he must be scum? Disagreements don't always mean scum, this is why town gets lynched.

2)

I didn't explicitly say that I thought Ice was misguided town. I said that some elements of his approach with his argument was towny - and when he asserted that I was scum and trying to bait me for the vote, I told him why I may not be voting him - which is partially the truth.

Assumptions are corrosive, especially when people weigh them too harshly on people who are scum. I have a mixed read on Ice - in case you didn't realize.

You did not explicitly state, but 110 very, very heavily implies that you think ICE is misguided town and you are engaged in a town v town battle. And from the outside, it's very difficult to tell the difference between mixed feelings and fence-sitting.

Did you NOT read my 53?

When was my vote EVER completely about pressuring you?

And no explanation? I'm sorry, but did you not see the part where I said:

3) The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

Sorry I didn't draw a picture and sent it in a separate post.

I read both. I know the stated reason for the vote. But that early in D1, the point of the vote is to put pressure on me and see how I respond.

And your stated reason for unvoting is ridiculous. I ask you the same question I asked ICE: do you really believe I was in imminent danger of being lynched? And even if you thought the wagon did move too fast, the natural response from town to that thought would be to ask why and try to suss out whether scum was involved. You didn't do that; instead you stalled the wagon, removing pressure, and went after ICE.

Nice seeing how you completely changed your demeanor and thought of your wagon when I argued against this shit case over my vote.

I didn't. In a vacuum, I don't find your initial vote on me scummy at all. It was normal, early-game pressure. And it was opportunistic to the extent that it jumped on a forming early-game wagon.

d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

Oh, I can give you ALL my town games. You'll see me get into a lot of shit with people.

Talah, RC, Titus - they've all seen my town game at least once (Same as ABR, I think) - and Johnny and RC have seen my scum game.

I don't doubt that you get into plenty of TvT. But the way you brought it up bugged me. It sounded like you were trying to give yourself an out from the argument, implicitly trying to convince ICE that you were both townies and should stop fighting and go after somebody else. So it's not that I'm saying the statement isn't true; it's that I think bringing it up like that is scummy.

1)

Where am I hedging Ice's read on Johnny? All I said was that - partially a meta read - I thought Johnny was quite town. Since my very last game he was town.

I made it clear that I also thought his tone was different, and I wanted to observe a bit more to be firm on the read.

That, what you said right there, that's hedging. That's pretty much exactly hedging. He seems obvtown, but his town is different, but you're not sure. That's hedging. And the way you did it, it felt like buddying up to ICE.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

VOTE: Taly

Speaking of opportunistic votes...

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

And does that tell you that you should pay attention to Ice's "theory" that we're a scumpair? -_-

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

[Wickan]

Okay, I just accidentally hit submit instead of preview, so the above looks like a mess. I'm going to post a revised (cleaned up) form in a second. I apologize for the mistake.

[Wickan]

Okay, this essentially replaces the bottom half of my previous post. I apologize again for spamming the page like that.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

I don't claim that you're trying to cause chaos. I claim that you were trying to say "TvT" to get out of the discussion with ICE. Again, the problem is the way you said it. I welcome other opinions about this, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

Yes. Absolutely yes. The very act that somebody unvoted expressing doubt about the quality of the wagon is enough to remove pressure.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

As stated, your reasons for unvoting don't make sense in and of themselves, particularly in light of you not following up on it. And the stated reason especially doesn't make sense without waiting to see my response (the wait wasn't that long).

[Wickan]

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.

[Wickan]

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

Because it hadn't.

@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.

Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.

[Wickan]

@RC: Where does the ABR vote come from?

[Wickan]

So as town, you have the mindset of "the only way his action makes sense is if we're scum together"..? That just doesn't seem possible to me. How would that thought even make sense to you if you have a town role PM and know beyond any doubt that this situation isn't feasible, and then post about said train of thought?

It's completely possible. I'm aware of how something looks if you can't see my role PM. It's the same as recognizing that an action you've taken was scummy even though you know you aren't scum. I don't understand why that's so difficult.

@wickan, ice is actually my number 2 suspect atm.

I stand corrected. I still think ICE is a reasonable buddy target for Taly though.

pedit: are you only interested in Titus's argument against RC, or can I answer too?

[Wickan]

Well, 35 (the early FA townread) has been well covered.

70 also points how that he dislikes how quickly my wagon formed, a concern never mentioned again (similar to what Taly did). Nice way to look concerned that a wagon was scum driven without ever actually examining how or why that might've been so.

From then on, read his ISO. Most of it consists of either asserting Titus must be scum (not clear why, but apparently because Titus thinks RC is scum), claiming that he's obviously town because this is how he acts as town, and trying to get shots in on me. There's no productive scumhunting, no attempts to push on people (other than me), just meta assertions and unsubstantiated votes.

pedit: nah, I'm perfectly happy with Taly. Nothing ICE has done has leapt out at me.

[Wickan]

It's the same as recognizing that an action you've taken was scummy even though you know you aren't scum.

It's vastly easier to recognize an action you've taken was scummy when you're scum, though.

I disagree. Or at least, I might concede that it's easier, but certainly not vastly so. I can imagine that I don't know something at look at it objectively.

[Wickan]

Are you saying his concern seemed fake in 70?

If the concern was genuine, he's never, to the best of my knowledge, followed up on it at all. So yes, I'm going with fake.

The last thing is mostly the same stuff several people are guilty of (Titus, Al), they can't all be scum.

I put Al in a special box, as he hasn't really done anything yet.

I will concede that I probably have a partial blindspot re: Titus as she's one of the few people who actually thinks I'm town. But her posts, while brief are at least filled with reasons. The reasons are one sentence long and often borderline conclusory, but at least they're reasons. And I haven't really seen anything scummy from her yet (yes, I've looked).

[Wickan]

Are you seeing that same level of fake in, say, my concern for the same thing?

I don't remember you ever expressing concern for that. In fact, my impression has always been that you've been pretty happy with the wagon on me. Am I wrong?

[Wickan]

What do you think about FA's vote on Wickan?

Same as yours, too easy. Not gonna fight it right now though because I want this wagon.

I said this once

Ooh, I never caught that.

Although I do think that's slightly different. Your suspicion there is pointed squarely at Frozen for jumping on, whereas I interpreted RC and Taly's suspicions to be of the more general "this wagon formed too quickly" type. And you have, in fact been on Frozen since then, while RC and Taly, from what I can tell, have pursued their suspicions not at all.

[Wickan]

@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)

Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?

Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?

[Wickan]

See I see the exact opposite because Bells looks like an easier target to me

And then Taly? I mean why wouldn't he pick his targets better or at least settle on one he thought he could push.

Wick wasn't a presence early, there was a full page in between voting Bells and voting Taly. Taly could have made himself a better target, his partners could have said to back off, he could have seen that not many were biting that sweet sweet Bells bait.

The irony being of course that there's a lot more suspicion on RC, whereas I can't seem to convince anybody to look at Taly.

I have never become less suspicious of RC, but rather more of Taly. And the thing that set that off was, as I said, 110

Plus he never looked back at my rebuttal toward him, and I feel like I need to prod him to get anything.

Honestly, I just got tired of doing back and forth walls with you that weren't getting anything done. I couldn't seem to convince anybody that you were scum and it wasn't changing people's minds about me. I just thought my time was better spent elsewhere.

On Albert: I actually don't think he's scum. I mean, he's being completely useless, but I'd rather we lynch somebody we think has a decent chance to flip as opposed to a policy lynch.

[Wickan]

I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.

But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)

All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.

[Wickan]

But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."

So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?

[Wickan]

Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??

[Wickan]

about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.

I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?

I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.

I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here )

I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.

I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.

[Wickan]

@ICE: if you knew for a fact that I was town, would you still find Titus scummy at all? Your suspicion of Titus seems mostly (though not completely) dependent on his defense of me.

[Wickan]

- accusing others is not scummy. being offensive when people are accusing you too hard is indeed.
- so you accept your not playing good? thats not townish.
- that's just categorizing not reading. I want your full / detailed reads bro.

1) I want to clarify which definition of "offensive" you mean here. Do you mean that I'm attacking others when I'm being accused? Yes, I do that. No, I don't see why that is scummy.

2) I mean, it's not actually scummy either. I'm clearly playing poorly regardless of my alignment, as everybody thinks I'm scum. That's what I meant.

3) Be more specific please. Again, I think I've provided my thoughts on near everybody at this point.

Also, for the record, you're calling this an aggressive defense? Do you think I'm being overly aggressive right now?


@RC: I am also incredibly sorry. It really really sucks.

The Titus wagon seems predicated on the fact that she's not giving detailed reasons. I am misunderstanding?

On a lighter note: Is there some sort of game going to see how many different ways there are to misspell my name before I crack?

[Wickan]

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

[Wickan]

Dunno, I don't really like it. Also goes back to ABR's comment (somewhat surprisingly) that scum with daytalk would tend to be more talkative rather than less (whether I strictly agree with that or not ehhhhh).

I know you haven't mentioned this since you switched your vote over, but is this part of your scumread on Albert, or is it almost entirely due to the lurking (or something else)?

[Wickan]

2 - whatever is not townish is scummy. but maybe slightly scummy. your admitting you don't feel the need of playeing good and scum hunting?

I am not at all admitting that I don't feel the need to play well. I'm trying to play well.

[Wickan]

Sure. Mention it. I did.

[Wickan]

If you're referring to my read on ICE.... I AM townreading Ice, and I've said that in 344 and have said that I was lleaning town on him for awhile.

Why did you think I wasn't townreading him?

Furthermore - why did you say that I'd DENY any kind of townread I had on Ice?

This looks like a calculated misrep.... Especially since you still painted my interactions with Ice - me saying our interaction as TVT - was an attempt to BUDDY him.

Why did I think you weren't townreading him? Because you weren't.

What I can't seem to understand is - People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Basically... I feel like there is probably scum between:

Ice, Wickan, FA

I'm tossing around Wickan and FA, moreso Wickan as the candidates - what do you think?

I can understand the whole 'Ice oldschool town archetype' but it rubs me the wrong way, I'm not understanding where his heads at, which bothers me. I do agree with John, it does feel like he has an agenda and that's why my read is torn on him.

Plus, I rarely hear town say something like:

"Oh, get over yourself"

Eckh.... Association tells aren't bad D1, but Ice has relied a bit on those on his reads which feels like he's creating a little world that revolves around who needs to be lynched rather than looking at his reads in an individual light. If that's understandable.

The thing that makes me think is - you put out a theory concerning that Wickan and I are scumpair, then Wickan comes in saying that I'm scum buddying you for the back and forth over my vote/unvote on HIM - himself.

From what I'm seeing - I'm being thrown out as an associative with several players at this point - and this isn't even considering Titus saying that I'm scum with RC and you, who you apparently scumread as well.

I don't think people see the how sticky of a situation this is - it causes all kinds of division and miscommunication, and the fact that people discredit me as "woe is me" and "youre a martyr" seriously makes me question their perspective in this game - IE, whether they have an agenda to push something as scum despite what may be presented, or town who actually wants to decipher between the game and work on it.

This is why I considered - and still leaning toward, you being town - and Wickan - being possible scum, for the inconsistencies I've seen of him - and the idea that he hasn't pushed anyone else yet after saying that my wagon isn't going anywhere...

I grant you that you said you were leaning town on him at the end there, but your opinion of him has been decidedly mixed. So to say "I am townreading ICE and have been leaning that way for a while" is disingenous.

[Wickan]

And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that 110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.

[Wickan]

Wickan get your vote on Ice.

You're not actually selling me on him being scum though.

I'm up for Taly and RC though.

I mean I suppose a readslist from Wickan would be good, or maybe a will-vote / won't-vote type thing.

I can actually do this if you want

[Wickan]

Not Voting: Johnny, Titus, Albert
Could Be Talked Into Voting, But I Wouldn't Be Happy: ICE, Frozen, Talah
Happy To Vote: Taly, RC
I Have No Thoughts: A Simple Plan

[Wickan]

@Johnny: what are your equivalents?

[Wickan]

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks, it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

[Wickan]

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,

it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.

The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"

[Wickan]

Fine. Then, "no"

[Wickan]

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

[Wickan]

To clarify: are you saying he actually copied the wording of your posts, or just that he's buddying up to you to look town?

[Wickan]

Okay, I'm finally back.

RadiantCowbells's post read like a desperate attempt to justify a Titus scumread.

@Titus: welcome to where I've been all game. You're welcome to join me on the Taly wagon.

[Wickan]

Generally pretty towny, although it's been a bit easy as he's had no pressure. There have definitely been a couple of moments throughout the day that I've looked at and immediately said "that's town." I appreciate his efforts to push for an actual lynch; he seems less satisfied when we're sitting around doing nothing.

I've put off a much closer read until D2.

[Wickan]

Why are you JUST NOW here? Especially after the abomination of a post Titus' was?

Because I am? I don't really understand the question. If you're asking why I haven't really been here the last couple days, I'd rather not go into it.

And you prodding her to jump my wagon at this point? That just looks like a work-of-art scum maneuver.

Are you kidding? I've wanted people to vote for you for a while. It's not scummy to encourage others to vote your scumreads.

@Titus: I'd honestly rather not expend the energy digging stuff up unless you really want me to. Do you have a reason for suspecting Johnny right now?

[Wickan]

And taly: I didn't address your most recent wall of an argument against me because there didn't seem to be any point. We've been over all of this multiple times. We clearly disagree in our interpretations of lots of stuff I've done.

[Wickan]

Wickan and ASS need to pick wagons.

I don't like ASP or Titus wagons though.

[Wickan]

Not Voting: Johnny, Titus, Albert
Could Be Talked Into Voting, But I Wouldn't Be Happy: ICE, Frozen, Talah
Happy To Vote: Taly, RC
I Have No Thoughts: A Simple Plan

Shift ASP up to "Not Voting"

[Wickan]

Nah, I follow it.

Really though, my thought process is as simple as "I don't think either of them are scum."

[Wickan]

Claim: Hider

[Wickan]

Claim: Hider

Well that's not a normal role is it?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

I honestly have no idea if it's normal. I actually assumed it was, but I haven't read the normal rules in detail.

[Wickan]

Yeah, there's no possible way for me to confirm this.

It's a very useful role though; if you believe me, I can conftown people. Of course, if I die, you have to guess what I did.

pedit: No, the town can't know who I hide behind, or else it's useless (scum will just target that person)

[Wickan]

To clarify any possible confusion about how hider works:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Hider

[Wickan]

The largest problem with the pool is that it also increases the chance that we kill 2 townies

[Wickan]

I'd rather we just outright state who he's hiding behind. I don't completely believe the claim so at worst we lose two people we were thinking about lynching anyway. Anything else either confirms or condemns people.

But that's a recipe for a surefire death. There's no way that helps town.

[Wickan]

Wickan

, did you crumb your role at all?

I did not. However, I did laugh hysterically when I read FA's 421

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I have no objections to the suggested hider pool. I also suggest that talah replace ASP if that's the eventual lynch.

[Wickan]

4) I've been under heavy suspicion from the beginning. I did not think that a crumb would help my credibility in the slightest. And I'm not sure what else you would've wanted me to do about it.

[Wickan]

The point of the hider pool is essentially to ensure that, even if I die, I'm providing information. W/o the hider pool, if I die, it's much harder for the remaining town to figure out who was the scum that I hid behind. The downside is that the pool also increases the chance of scum shooting me when I'm hiding behind a townie.

[Wickan]

Actually, ASP does point out another problem with the pool.

Say the pool contains Alice, Bob, and Eve.

Say tomorrow I'm dead and Bob is dead. There are 2 possibilities
1. I hid behind Bob and scum targeted Bob, we both died.
2. I hid behind Eve, who is scum, and scum targeted Bob. We both died.

From town's point of view, these look identical. And I'm not sure either should particularly be considered more likely.

[Wickan]

@ASP: However, if you're suggesting that we have a definite target, that's right out. The two options are pool or free for all.

[Wickan]

FA: I'm never going to "find scum." The closest is I'll die and you'll know that somebody in the pool is scum.

@Johnny: I did agree to the pool, I just wanted to point out that you have to consider both possibilities in that scenario. We're doing the pool.

Al: you prefer Taly to RC?

[Wickan]

Won't lynch:

Wickan [5] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen}
Johnny [5] {Titus, talah, Taly, Frozen, Wickan}
ABR [2] {Titus, Wickan}
talah [1] {Titus}
Titus [4] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan}
Taly [3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}
RC [1] {Frozen}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

talah [1] {Frozen}
Ice [1] {Titus}
ASP [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}
RC [1] {Wickan}

Believe it or not, I've actually mellowed on Taly over the last 5 pages or so. ABR's "push" did not convince me.

I am very curious to see whether ICE is going to call out talah.

[Wickan]

What have we done to the formatting

Sorry, that's my fault. Here:

Won't lynch:

Wickan [5] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen}
Johnny [5] {Titus, talah, Taly, Frozen, Wickan}
ABR [2] {Titus, Wickan}
talah [1] {Titus}
Titus [4] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan}
Taly [3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}
RC [1] {Frozen}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

talah [1] {Frozen}
Ice [1] {Titus}
ASP [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}
RC [1] {Wickan}

[Wickan]

Hey ICE. Remember when you thought I was scummy for considering how outsiders might view my actions?

I already mentioned I'm fine with being in the pool if ASP is lynched and - LO - look who I'm voting. I guess you can see that as scum-me potentially wanting to get in the pool so my old mate Wickan can claim town on me but frankly I don't actually like the other options being offered.

What do you think of this?

[Wickan]

I've done so. And it made me do this:

I am expressing willingness to hammer talah

I'm not sure what protocol is here when talah has a self-vote though.

[Wickan]

Addendum to above: I will not do so until ICE answers my question

[Wickan]

@Titus: why not?

[Wickan]

Why?

[Wickan]

I will concede that I'm not totally happy w/ the makeup of that wagon. That's actually the biggest strike against voting for her.

[Wickan]

I could maybe accept ASP as a compromise, but I'm not happy about it. The best argument against him is the large amount of IioA, especially recently.

[Wickan]

^That's a terrible reason. C'mon, you can do better.

[Wickan]

I don't think it means what talah thinks it means, but I see where it came from. They're reading way too much into it though.

[Wickan]

Trying to insist that I should be restricted to one person at this point is anti-town bordering on scum. The clear reasons not to do that have been explained again and again.

I'm not going to hammer talah. I encourage ASP not to as well.

I'm happy continuing to vote RC. I encourage others to join me. If you doubt, read him over the last few pages and ask yourself: is this actually a frustrated townie, or scum trying to give off that vibe.

[Wickan]

Wickan targets Titus or Taly but claims which one before he goes. No debate.

I continue to claim that your insistence on this is anti-town bordering on scum.

[Wickan]

Is that based just on Jeanne, or on ICE as well?

[Wickan]

RC is trying to use it to argue that Titus is scum. It's not actually an argument that Titus is scum though.

[Wickan]

Jeanne is terrible, and Ice was scummy during parts of the day, but I 100% relate to why he would replace out as town. As scum, he wasn't getting bandwagoned at the time, he could have just sat on his ass and laugh at the town racking up pages. That's why I'm sticking to talah.

This is a pretty good argument. I can't see scum replacing out of this; they have no problems with lack of movement.

[Wickan]

This is a pretty good argument. I can't see scum replacing out of this; they have no problems with lack of movement.

Unless they actually want to play the game. I could see frustration coming from either alignment here

I mean, I guess I'm assuming scum would think that our paralysis is a winning situation for scum. I also agree with Titus insofar as this would be easier to determine if we had a flip (i.e. if most major wagons from today turn out to have been on town, I can also see the frustration).

[Wickan]

I've been on board. And ASP is right; that's L-1

pedit: sniped

[Wickan]

Unvote

Checking mod count for a sec

[Wickan]

Yes, we've established that RC doesn't want me to play hider correctly. But I agree with Al, he's town. Unless somebody wants to seriously claim a brilliant gambit there.

pedit: RC, I'm the hider, and I'll just flat tell you that I'm not listening to you if that's your position. So please stop.

[Wickan]

Titus: stop engaging with it, I'm ignoring it anyway.

[Wickan]

Okay, so it worries me that not a single scumread of mine was on that wagon. The wagon was me, Al Titus Johnny (in quick succession).

Yet, I still feel that if 2 of those 3 were scum, we would've already lynched a townie.

Ugh.

pedit: no, don't do that

[Wickan]

Fine.

I'm far from happy, but fine.

VOTE: talah

Nightmare scenario: Al + Titus scumteam

[Wickan]

@Al: For the record, that's not exactly true.

...

I also tunneled on Taly for a while.

[Wickan]

Well I'm not currently inclined to vote for you Titus, and talah has definitely been scummier than ASP.

[Wickan]

FA I can't read anymore.

Titus: do you think there was scum on the RC wagon?

[Wickan]

RC: Al + Titus? Thoughts?

pedit: Titus, get off your wagon.

Consideration: talah has already claimed VT.

[Wickan]

@Titus: Then why didn't scum hammer it? If ASP was scum, I assume we would've already mislynched.

[Wickan]

It was about 30 minutes. I would believe that FA and talah weren't on based on their posting patterns, but I think there's a decent chance both ASP and Jeanne saw it.

[Wickan]

Okay, maybe I'm overthinking this.

[Wickan]

I already voted talah. I won't consent to your seppuku project.

[Wickan]

Still?