Mini 1794: Gunslingers Ahoy! {Game Over}

[BlackStar]

VOTE: murdercat We don't tolerate murderous felines in this town.

[BlackStar]

I just changed it to this. Glad you like it lol

[BlackStar]

What's a Dwlee

Hi dwlee!

[BlackStar]

Lynch this scumlord.

Do you really think it would be this easy to find the first member of the scum team?

[BlackStar]

Eh, I guess

[BlackStar]

Is anyone else seeing all these associative tells between blackstar and murdercat

I vote blackstar --> murdercat votes me
Murdercat getting bandwagoned ---> blackstar swoops in and tries to defend murdercat (which was weird)

It would be comical if the game is this easy

That wasn't really a defense. I just thought it was silly that we were rushing towards a lynch. I also think it's scummy that you're trying to force an association between me and him before he even gets lynched

[BlackStar]

I'm not pushing you yet either.

[BlackStar]

BlackStar who is your top scumread right now?

Not sure. On one hand, your push on murdercat has been really good. But on the other hand, Dunnstral is giving me a bad feeling right now.

[BlackStar]

I'm not pushing you yet either.

So what are you doing in the thread right now

don't worry I'm not pushing you yet

Observing everyone

[BlackStar]

BlackStar I notice you haven't changed your vote since your initial RVS on MURDERCAT. Is it a serious vote now?

Yup

[BlackStar]

@BlackStar

That wasn't really a defense. I just thought it was silly that

we were rushing towards a lynch

. I also think it's scummy that you're trying to force an association between me and him before he even gets lynched

Several of your posts are giving me bad vibes.

When do you think it's appropriate to start trying to lynch someone?

There IS an association between you and MURDERCAT now. The nature of that association remains to be seen. Also, I believe that was the first time you actually called someone's actions as scummy. Yet, you aren't pushing or pursuing discourse with Dunnstral for his actions.

All you've said is that he gives you a bad feeling, and then outta nowhere, your vote on MURDERCAT is now serious.

Your progression in this game is all over the place. Stop "observing" and start scum-hunting, please.

That's not an association. Any normal person would think it's weird that somebody was at L-2 on like the 3rd page. This game is pretty bad so far. You're all death tunneling a player who clearly seems inexperienced and acting like his mistakes can only be seen as the actions of scum. I think Dunnstral is scum, so murdercat is probably town. You said that I didn't "pursue discourse with Dunnstral". I wasn't even here so of course I didn't. Dunnstral is trying to tie me to murdercat just because I questioned why everyone was ready to lynch him so quickly. That's ridiculously weak and it's even worse that he's trying to do this before we even get a flip. Then he said my individual actions were scummy but doesn't give any examples of things I've said that he thinks are scummy. He's earned my vote

VOTE: dunnstral

[BlackStar]

Here let me start off the new wagon

VOTE: BlackStar

You're the new wagon.

[BlackStar]

I knew he'd come out with a townread on BlackStar with little explanation

I just knew it

Casting shade for no reason. Classic scum move

And it's great because BlackStar is the real person who voted and then didn't pressure

I'm not saying he's scummy but he should be from Murdercat's point of view

Passive aggressively pushing me while trying to look like he isn't

Actually I am saying BlackStar is scummy because he is

And now he outright calls me scummy without saying why. None of this seems townie

[BlackStar]

I don't like 177. He brushes off every case against MURDERCAT when he said my push was good earlier and that his vote against MURDERCAT was serious. He misreps Dunnstral by claiming Dunn was trying to tie him to MURDERCAT. The tone of the post also sounds really defensive - was zefiend maybe a little too on the mark?

Would still rather vote MURDERCAT because I can make a better choice about BlackStar in the face of a cat flip than I can make a choice about cat in the face of a star flip.

I didn't misrep anything

Is anyone else seeing all these associative tells between blackstar and murdercat

I vote blackstar --> murdercat votes me
Murdercat getting bandwagoned ---> blackstar swoops in and tries to defend murdercat (which was weird)

It would be comical if the game is this easy

And I'm always defensive. Go look at any of my past games.

[BlackStar]

I also didn't like 177, hence my vote. In fact that whole post felt off (probably because it's mostly wrong)

The thing is he was posturing to do this for a while and I knew it would eventually happen

Dunn what is your read on me right now?

Probably mafia to be honest

What's wrong about it?

[BlackStar]

I love how nobody is even looking for town motivation in my posts

[BlackStar]

I assume town as that's the scenario I put forward.

You just said that you think I know that you're scum and that I'm setting up a mislynch

[BlackStar]

Go look at any of my past games.

I know this statement is NAI but in general I don't convince meta a real defense.

I think you made out Dunnstral's speculation to be way more than it is

More like he did

[BlackStar]

I couldn't be more transparent if I tried. Everyone just seems to listen to whatever Dunnstral says

@derek yes. Though I guess it's possible that Dunnstral was bussing him before to get towncred. He could also use the bus to make his bs association between me and murdercat and get an easy mislynch tomorrow

[BlackStar]

It's also possible BlackStar just majorly overreacted over my suspicion towards them

There's your town motivation

I think I reacted normally. Nobody likes it when people try to get them mislynched.

[BlackStar]

I also didn't like 177, hence my vote. In fact that whole post felt off (probably because it's mostly wrong)

The thing is he was posturing to do this for a while and I knew it would eventually happen

Dunn what is your read on me right now?

Probably mafia to be honest

What's wrong about it?

Could you answer this please?

[BlackStar]

What's wrong with post 177? First of all I'm being pretty much demonized in my actions

as if I said you're mafia because Murdercat is mafia, and as if I said you were suspicious without reason.

The general tone of the post didn't feel like what I'd expect from town either; and if you look back at your previous posts I pointed out the "posturing" that was going on too

All of that is true though

[BlackStar]

You didn't point out the posturing, but I know which posts you mean. It's hypocritical for you to say that though because you were doing the same thing

[BlackStar]

And you never said what the individual scummy thing that I did were. So like I said, you gave no reasons

[BlackStar]

You didn't point out the posturing, but I know which posts you mean. It's hypocritical for you to say that though because you were doing the same thing

Alright fair point. Though from the way you came out and did it it also seemed like you were rushing to defend Murdercat and trying to derail the wagon/doubtcast at me when there was already some form of case against me

What do you think of Murdercat right now?

Pretty sure I pointed out the individual scummy things before you voted me

He seems very happy that the suspicion has shifted from him to me. I guess it's possible that you and I are both town and he really was scum.

[BlackStar]

i was saying that Dunnstral was scummy which made you

probably

town. Thats not white knighting. Most of my post was about him, not you. And it sounded like an easy way for you to jump onto the bandwagon against me

[BlackStar]

Blackstar, I noticed that despite quoting his initial argument against efiend, you haven't really given your thoughts on him. So thoughts?

Seems like another opportunist looking for validation from the town

[BlackStar]

So dunn and I are both scum Blackstar?

Nah, just you

VOTE: murdercat

[BlackStar]

Just caught up. Chilledtea is like not even trying to figure out the game.

[BlackStar]

Can we get a vote count?

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE: I'll decide where I want to put this again tomorrow, meanwhile I believe Murdercat is at L-3

I know there's a lot of people who haven't even gotten to read the thread and we're ~250 posts in

I find your unvote weird given black isn't voting you anymore. I also don't like how you referenced how close murder is to a lynch. Just comes of as like you are about to make an opportunistic jump back to murder

But I didn't vote murder
I unvoted blackstar

Why do I need to unvote blackstar to jump back to murder? There's no correlation

you had voted murder today. I'm saying your unvote of black and you mentioning of how many votes murder had made me feel like you were about to make a switch. I don't see any other reason to mention the number of vot s on him if you weren't contemplating voting him yourself.

I saw it as him trying to say that we shouldn't lynch murdercat before he came back

[BlackStar]

@BlackStar:

What happened to your scumread on Dunnstral?

He admitted that he was wrong and then he took a step back and changed his read on me. I'm town and I was close to being lynch so if he was scum it would've been easier for him to just let me die.

[BlackStar]

You took your vote off of me before I took mine off of you

Or were you still scumreading me when you took your vote off?

No. It felt like murdercat was scum who was glad to have the heat off of him and on me instead. Your posts around that time felt genuine and his didn't, so I voted for him

[BlackStar]

I asked said that he didn't list individual scummy things that I didn't and he didn't provide them. Whenever I ask anyone on this site to do that they never do and then they somehow convince everyone smells that I'm the scummy one for asking others to explain what I've done that they think is scummy. Since this always happened I just decided to not even bother pushing it

[BlackStar]

ugh, so many typos

[BlackStar]

I said that he didn't list individual scummy things that I did and he didn't provide them. Whenever I ask anyone on this site to do that they never do and then they somehow convince everyone else that I'm the scummy one for asking others to explain what I've done that they think is scummy. Since this always happens I just decided to not even bother pushing it

Fixed it

[BlackStar]

And you never said what the individual scummy things that I did were. So like I said, you gave no reasons

I didn't ignore it. I just didn't push him hard and keep asking him for it

[BlackStar]

*shrugs* I guess

[BlackStar]

You didn't point out the posturing, but I know which posts you mean. It's hypocritical for you to say that though because you were doing the same thing

Alright fair point. Though from the way you came out and did it it also seemed like you were rushing to defend Murdercat and trying to derail the wagon/doubtcast at me when there was already some form of case against me

What do you think of Murdercat right now?

Pretty sure I pointed out the individual scummy things before you voted me

He seems very happy that the suspicion has shifted from him to me. I guess it's possible that you and I are both town and he really was scum.

i was saying that Dunnstral was scummy which made you

probably

town. Thats not white knighting. Most of my post was about him, not you. And it sounded like an easy way for you to jump onto the bandwagon against me

It changed there

[BlackStar]

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

[BlackStar]

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

Who are you to tell him how to speak

He keeps saying stuff like "Here's another move that scum typically like to do" and it gives off the feeling that he's trying to indirectly say that those are actions that town would never do. So he's acting like there's a set way that scum play and its just complete bs

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

Historically, I've found it to be more persuasive, especially in games with newer players who haven't seen some of those things firsthand yet. It's probably redundant for the more experienced who already know it.

Rather than poke at my wording, can I get your thoughts on the actual content of the post?

You made good points in that post like what you said about him not pushing murdercat anymore even though he said he was scum reading him. But that part about him calling things weird felt pointless and I don't think you're onto something there. He's done a good job throughout the game of countering all of your points against him, plus he's trying hard to scum hunt and asking good questions. I town read him

[BlackStar]

Alright, I lied. I did read the game.

Why lie about something so trivial?

My read on BlackStar keeps swinging as people make cases and counter cases.

I personally think using metagame is really stupid, because I along with others don't play the same way every game.

I would go so far as to say I play a different way every game, depending on mood and player list.

1. Why are you so easily swayed?
2. Who has made the best case and counter case in your opinion. (Basiclaly which ones swayed you)

Cause tbh I haven't see a single case that has been very convincing and he's in my pile of people to keep an eye on)

Needless to say I'm not a fan of 272.

Ok lunch is over. Ttfn

I am not sure why transcend feels good about chumba because chumba hasn't really done anything other than say that pre-flip associations are bad. Chumba is null.

I also pushed on a scum read and showed how what murdercat was saying in post 54 wasn't true. Why did you ignore those?

Regarding murder, we played together in a newbie and he was very scummy, everyone scum read him till day 3. He was town there though. If he is town here it should be easier to read him later on.

I'll check out that game to see if I can get a feel for his play style. Do you think his play this game is different or similar or too early to tell?

Side note- re: 275: I don't think brawl read the link he posted cause if he did he would certainly not say I match any of those examples and a "signal to noise ratio" of 5 game related to 3 non game related is pretty good. And that's all I'm going to say about this "active lurking" stuff. Obviously I wasn't and wasting any more time is distracting me from finding his partners.

Also, again, my main point is that he voted mcat with the only stated reasoning being "wagons are fun", proceeded to make null points, and only actually indicated any real suspicion of mcat 2 pages later when the wagon was clearly going.

And? When I voted murder the wagon was already going. I put him to l-2 even. Just an FYI, I don't vote people unless I think they are scum so when I voted murder and put him at l-2, I thought he was probably scum. Sure I didn't give a reason at the time but I'm not really obligated to give one. I was still pressuring him the very next page when I pointed out in post 53 that murdercat' post in 52 was blatantly wrong. I'm not sure why you discount that post. Oh and btw that was 1 page later, not 2 like you said above...

If you are town you have a completely realistic expectation of what kind of center a person can or should generate early in the game. Sure I didn't produce as much as others but that's because I wasn't involved in the argument. Most of the posts at the time were from murder/accountant who were going back and forth with each other.


Lastly. In post 277 you tried to say that Dunn had more content than I did. If anything his signal to noise ratio was way higher than mine. The first 6 of his 7 posts weren't very useful at all. He had a total of 14 posts before I went to bed and of those 14 posts only 4 of them imo are game related (and I'm being generous to one of the 4) yet you don't have an issue with him? I call foul here.

Still think BlackStar changing his mind twice is a towntell, but I'd support a BS lynch over a Chumba lynch. Although frankly we shouldn't declare the game solved or anything until everyone has spoken up.

Very weird post here. Why would anyone consider the game solved when we don't even have a strong lead on 1 scum yet let alone the entire scum team. Very weird. Your early entry into the game looked good but now I'm not so sure about you. You seem too easily swayed for my liking.

Is he not questioning people and trying to figure out the game?

[BlackStar]

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

Who are you to tell him how to speak

He keeps saying stuff like "Here's another move that scum typically like to do" and it gives off the feeling that he's trying to indirectly say that those are actions that town would never do. So he's acting like there's a set way that scum play and its just complete bs

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

Historically, I've found it to be more persuasive, especially in games with newer players who haven't seen some of those things firsthand yet. It's probably redundant for the more experienced who already know it.

Rather than poke at my wording, can I get your thoughts on the actual content of the post?

You made good points in that post like what you said about him not pushing murdercat anymore even though he said he was scum reading him. But that part about him calling things weird felt pointless and I don't think you're onto something there. He's done a good job throughout the game of countering all of your points against him, plus he's trying hard to scum hunt and asking good questions. I town read him

I'm not speaking in absolutes, nor am I "trying to indirectly say that those are actions that town would never do". I'm very directly saying I think those are actions with possible Scum motivations behind them, and what those motives are.

For real, excluding me, who has Chumba scumhunted since he got back?

How do you feel he's scumhunted when he's laser-focused on me

and has given literally no other reads, of any kind?

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

The thing is there are no "classic scum moves" anyone who says their are are lying to you. I've seen countless number of townies do things that "only scum would do" and I've seen scum do things that fool townies.

I never, ever said that someone did something "only scum would do".

Also, seriously, there's an entire category on the mafiawiki about common tells. You want to tell me there aren't any usual scumtells? Really?

Also, you're his biggest scum read. Why would he not grill his biggest scum read?

[BlackStar]

I still don't like MCAT. People are too eager to pass off his moves as VI but I'm not convinced. But actually I think BlackStar is more scummy. Going to ISO him.

Any normal person would think it's weird that somebody was at L-2 on like the 3rd page.

This is exactly what I talked about with MCAT - people go to L-2 to provoke reactions, to get out of RVS, because they didn't count votes right etc. ALL the time. I think that BlackStar is trying to pass off regular RVS shenanigans as some sort of "rushing towards a lynch"(his words - see post 87). This is in order to make the people who were voting MCAT early on look bad.

You're all death tunneling a player who clearly seems inexperienced and acting like his mistakes can only be seen as the actions of scum.

No. I don't think it's clear at all. You are white knighting a scummy player. That makes you scummy.

You're the new wagon.

You had to know that the Dunnwagon was not going to push through, so why did you say this?

Casting shade for no reason. Classic scum move

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

He keeps saying stuff like "Here's another move that scum typically like to do" and it gives off the feeling that he's trying to indirectly say that those are actions that town would never do. So he's acting like there's a set way that scum play and its just complete bs

So you are scummy according to yourself??

I love how nobody is even looking for town motivation in my posts

I've already explained why this is a bad post but I'm also going to add that I think this is an attempt to get people to be generous in their interpretation of his posts, which is significant if he thinks he might scumslip.

I think I reacted normally. Nobody likes it when people try to get them mislynched.

Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier. OMGUS is a terrible reaction to people exerting pressure on you. It's null at best, scummy at worst.

Seems like another opportunist looking for validation from the town

Explain this zefiend read because I like zefiend's posts.

Chilledtea is like not even trying to figure out the game.

This is true at least.

I said that he didn't list individual scummy things that I did and he didn't provide them. Whenever I ask anyone on this site to do that they never do and then they somehow convince everyone else that I'm the scummy one for asking others to explain what I've done that they think is scummy. Since this always happens I just decided to not even bother pushing it

I didn't ignore it. I just didn't push him hard and keep asking him for it

This seems like a fairly weak excuse. I can't really find the scum motivation in not pushing for reasons he's scummy but it's weird at least.

1. When my wagon lost momentum you were saying that you weren't sure if i was scum anymore. You even went as far as saying that you had a town lean on me. But then brawl voted me and the vote count came back so you felt like it was safe to jump on my wagon. That looks scummy to me
2. I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad. I thought it was weird that he got a wagon so quickly so I said so. It was entirely possible that somebody was going to lolhammer him and I have wanted to make sure that didn't happen. You guys were the ones who took this as an opportunity to try and make me look bad and act like I was defending murdercat
3. I'm not white knighting anyone. And if you truly think that cum would openly back up their partner and "white knight them", then you must be really new at this game. Not to mention the fact that right after I "white knighted" him he turned around and voted me.
4. You seem to think that building a case means making shit up and hoping people go along with it. That's not how this works. Everyone acted like there was no way I could be town so I made that post to show how ridiculous they were acting, there's no hidden agenda, there's no sneaky bs hidden there. What I said is what I meant.
5. OMGUS is a normal reaction and you're being scummy for acting like it isn't
6. He gave a weak reason to jump on my wagon. Kind of like your "case" right here.
7. Yeah. Go big him instead of a member of the town.
8. Why even talk about if if you can't make up... sorry, "think of" any scum motivation for it?

[BlackStar]

Chumba I strongly believe you should take your vote off TBG. There is very little chance he is going to be lynched at this point so it's essentially a vanity wagon. Your vote is your weapon; put it where it can do you, and us, some good.

We're only a couple of real life days into day 1. Why would you act like there's almost no hence for his wagon to gain steam?

[BlackStar]

I still don't like MCAT. People are too eager to pass off his moves as VI but I'm not convinced. But actually I think BlackStar is more scummy. Going to ISO him.

Any normal person would think it's weird that somebody was at L-2 on like the 3rd page.

This is exactly what I talked about with MCAT - people go to L-2 to provoke reactions, to get out of RVS, because they didn't count votes right etc. ALL the time. I think that BlackStar is trying to pass off regular RVS shenanigans as some sort of "rushing towards a lynch"(his words - see post 87). This is in order to make the people who were voting MCAT early on look bad.

You're all death tunneling a player who clearly seems inexperienced and acting like his mistakes can only be seen as the actions of scum.

No. I don't think it's clear at all. You are white knighting a scummy player. That makes you scummy.

You're the new wagon.

You had to know that the Dunnwagon was not going to push through, so why did you say this?

Casting shade for no reason. Classic scum move

Why do you keep telling us that things are classic scum moves? Just say that you find it scummy

He keeps saying stuff like "Here's another move that scum typically like to do" and it gives off the feeling that he's trying to indirectly say that those are actions that town would never do. So he's acting like there's a set way that scum play and its just complete bs

So you are scummy according to yourself??

I love how nobody is even looking for town motivation in my posts

I've already explained why this is a bad post but I'm also going to add that I think this is an attempt to get people to be generous in their interpretation of his posts, which is significant if he thinks he might scumslip.

I think I reacted normally. Nobody likes it when people try to get them mislynched.

Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier. OMGUS is a terrible reaction to people exerting pressure on you. It's null at best, scummy at worst.

Seems like another opportunist looking for validation from the town

Explain this zefiend read because I like zefiend's posts.

Chilledtea is like not even trying to figure out the game.

This is true at least.

I said that he didn't list individual scummy things that I did and he didn't provide them. Whenever I ask anyone on this site to do that they never do and then they somehow convince everyone else that I'm the scummy one for asking others to explain what I've done that they think is scummy. Since this always happens I just decided to not even bother pushing it

I didn't ignore it. I just didn't push him hard and keep asking him for it

This seems like a fairly weak excuse. I can't really find the scum motivation in not pushing for reasons he's scummy but it's weird at least.

1. When my wagon lost momentum you were saying that you weren't sure if i was scum anymore. You even went as far as saying that you had a town lean on me. But then brawl voted me and the vote count came back so you felt like it was safe to jump on my wagon. That looks scummy to me
2. I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad. I thought it was weird that he got a wagon so quickly so I said so. It was entirely possible that somebody was going to lolhammer him and I have wanted to make sure that didn't happen. You guys were the ones who took this as an opportunity to try and make me look bad and act like I was defending murdercat
3. I'm not white knighting anyone. And if you truly think that scum would openly back up their partner and "white knight them", then you must be really new at this game. Not to mention the fact that right after I "white knighted" him he turned around and voted me.
4. You seem to think that building a case means making shit up and hoping people go along with it. That's not how this works. Everyone acted like there was no way I could be town so I made that post to show how ridiculous they were acting, there's no hidden agenda, there's no sneaky bs hidden there. What I said is what I meant.
5. OMGUS is a normal reaction and you're being scummy for acting like it isn't
6. He gave a weak reason to jump on my wagon. Kind of like your "case" right here.
7. Yeah. Go bug him instead of a member of the town.
8. Why even talk about if if you can't make up... sorry, "think of" any scum motivation for it?

Fixed typos

[BlackStar]

Chumba I strongly believe you should take your vote off TBG. There is very little chance he is going to be lynched at this point so it's essentially a vanity wagon. Your vote is your weapon; put it where it can do you, and us, some good.

We're only a couple of real life days into day 1. Why would you act like there's almost no hence for his wagon to gain steam?

Because I have faith that this town is smart.

They're close to mislynching me and they're letting half the players get away with barely posting...

[BlackStar]

Wait, what does being smart have to do with changing wagons?

[BlackStar]

I don't think TBG will get lynched because I think town is smart enough to not lynch obvtown.

And how is he obvtown?

[BlackStar]

Addressing your defense:

1. When my wagon lost momentum you were saying that you weren't sure if i was scum anymore. You even went as far as saying that you had a town lean on me. But then brawl voted me and the vote count came back so you felt like it was safe to jump on my wagon. That looks scummy to me

You're half right. The vote count and TBG's vote drew my interest, so I ISO'd you. What I found there was damning enough for me to push for your lynch.

2. I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad. I thought it was weird that he got a wagon so quickly so I said so. It was entirely possible that somebody was going to lolhammer him and I have wanted to make sure that didn't happen.

Everyone acted like there was no way I could be town so I made that post to show how ridiculous they were acting, there's no hidden agenda, there's no sneaky bs hidden there. What I said is what I meant.

I can't accept these statements as valid defenses. I can't take your word for anything, since this is Mafia. The phenomenon I've talked about earlier - you wanting the town to interpret everything you say in a generous and good light - is very strong here.

I'm not white knighting anyone. And if you truly think that scum would openly back up their partner and "white knight them", then you must be really new at this game.

Why not? I do it a ton as scum, if I think I can get away with it. How do we know you're not scum white knighting your partner then claiming that scum would never white knight their partner?

Not to mention the fact that right after I "white knighted" him he turned around and voted me.

This

strongly supports

the white knight theory. When a partner who has already been under pressure(and is not unlikely to get lynched) suddenly backs you up publicly, it's entirely natural for scum to kneejerk attempt to distance themselves from their partner, usually by bussing them. This kneejerk reaction is especially likely to come from someone like MURDERCAT, who we all agree is quite new and inexperienced.

5. OMGUS is a normal reaction and you're being scummy for acting like it isn't

If you were town, you would want to vote people who are mafia. But you are just voting the people who vote you. Unless you have some piece of evidence to show that voting you is a scumtell, then voting people who vote you(OMGUS) is not in line with the town's goals.

7. Yeah. Go bug him instead of a member of the town.

Please do not attempt to redirect my attention off you. It will not work.

8. Why even talk about if if you can't make up... sorry, "think of" any scum motivation for it?

As town, I have an incentive to be as transparent as possible in my thought process. If I find something that catches my attention, it's only natural to submit it for review. Perhaps another member of the town could read over that and see something I don't.

1. So you admit that you're just being opportunistic. Thanks for being honest
2. I'm not saying that people need to praise everything I say. I'm saying that you're not supposed to discount the possibility that someone is town.
3. Because I'm not frickkin' kissing his ass! The wagon on him felt ridiculous, so I thought maybe HD was town. Then he used that as a chance to say that I was white knighting him and jumped onto my wagon. You should be going after him because that's the only reason he's given for his vote. Not to mention the fact that he disappeared after the pressure shifted away from him
4. Nope
5. I am voting people who are Mafia: people on my wagon. Not everyone on my wagon is scum obviously, but some of them are. Why would I vote for people who aren't trying to cause my mislynch and backing it up with bad reasoning?
7. Please do not attempt to lynch members of the town.
8. There's nothing to see

[BlackStar]

As for 2), I don't know.

And this is where I call foul. You should know who made good cases for and against. Please find them. Thanks

I do want to second this. I don't understand how you don't know what cases you think are the most effective.

He just goes along with whatever opinion seems to be gaining the most traction

P-edit: 1. If you're trying to lynch scummy players, then you're on the wrong wagon
2. Wtf? You were just saying that murdercat was my scum partner and now you're saying that he's town?
4. We're not partners, so obviously we can't scum distance
5. Because I'm town. What kind of question is this?
7. It doesn't matter what you think. The fact remains that I'm town.
8. Okay

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, can you explain clearly why you called Dunnstral's post a classic scum move, then went on to assert that people who use the phrase "classic scum move" are scummy?

Because I was mad and being sarcastic. And then later on I noticed that brawl had said that like 3 or 4 different times and felt like he was trying to manipulate people's opinions

[BlackStar]

You didn't give a case. What else am I supposed to say? The tone of his

multiple posts

was serious. Go back and look at when I said it and then look through his ISO at all the times he said it. It obviously wasn't the same thing

[BlackStar]

why do you have more confidence in your belief that I'm scum?

[BlackStar]

I agree with Chumba, flipless associatives are a house of cards.

Fine I'll be more explicit. Accountant please explain why your vote on me became serious.

Because your reasoning about your vote, namely that Dunnstral switching his vote in RVS, was completely invalid. Furthermore, the way you phrased it sounded like you were pushing/leaving open the door to push in the future a lynch on Dunnstral for that reason. That's why I initially voted you. Your

response

to that vote, namely trying to bring up the subject of how many votes it takes to reach majority presumably to get town to get nervous and back off(at least that's how I interpreted it), was very bad. Your lack of follow up on your Dunnstral vote and instead switching to a defensive attitude could be one of two things:

1) You want to shift the attention off that vote or

2) You want to give people the impression the vote wasn't serious when the phrasing and tone were absolutely serious

Both of which are incredibly scummy and deceptive. Finally your attempt to make the discussion spiral into pointlessness by dodging the main thrust of my accusations against your scummy attitude

and

by intentionally dancing around the subject, misrepping me by saying I switched reasons, playing dumb when called out on it, pleading bad phrasing etc. are just incredibly unconvincing and scummy.

In this post you're against making associations between people before flips. So why are you doing it now?

[BlackStar]

why do you have more confidence in your belief that I'm scum?

Because of all the things I pointed out earlier. I suspect that pressing you any further would be unproductive, since you'd just start throwing out more "I am town, really" statements and claiming I have no case. I don't really have anything more to say to you unless you're willing to generate legitimate content.

You asked me why people on my wagon were scum. There's literally no other answer to give. And you're making a bunch of "you're scum and I'm gonna getcha! Tee hee!" comments. I don't know why you don't except me to respond the way that I did

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, can you explain clearly why you called Dunnstral's post a classic scum move, then went on to assert that people who use the phrase "classic scum move" are scummy?

Because I was mad and being sarcastic. And then later on I noticed that brawl had said that like 3 or 4 different times and felt like he was trying to manipulate people's opinions

I

AM

trying to manipulate people's opinions, and I said as much. I don't know why you see it as scummy. If I find scum and can't persuade the town I'm not going to be terribly effective - why wouldn't I use every tool in my kit to do so?

Townies convince people. Scum manipulate.

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, can you explain clearly why you called Dunnstral's post a classic scum move, then went on to assert that people who use the phrase "classic scum move" are scummy?

Because I was mad and being sarcastic. And then later on I noticed that brawl had said that like 3 or 4 different times and felt like he was trying to manipulate people's opinions

I

AM

trying to manipulate people's opinions, and I said as much. I don't know why you see it as scummy. If I find scum and can't persuade the town I'm not going to be terribly effective - why wouldn't I use every tool in my kit to do so?

Townies convince people. Scum manipulate.

They're the same damn thing. You just said one with positively charged words and one with negatively charged words.

con·vince
kənˈvins/
verb
1. cause (someone) to believe firmly in the truth of something.




ma·nip·u·late
məˈnipyəˌlāt/
verb
1. 

control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.

[BlackStar]

omg somebody trying to argue pre flip associative tells are a good thing?

It's funny because earlier in the game he agreed with you that they're bad

[BlackStar]

Accountant, do you believe in meta?

[BlackStar]

I don't think you were behaving in an unethical manner.

That's because you're white knighting him

[BlackStar]

Accountant, do you believe in meta?

Could you answer this?

[BlackStar]

Accountant, do you believe in meta?

I believe that meta exists. I believe that some uses of it are valid, and others are not.

I want you to back and look at a few of my games. Pick any 3 at random

[BlackStar]

And I don't get you're not considering the possibility that he's trying to manipulate people as scum.

[BlackStar]

Accountant, do you believe in meta?

I believe that meta exists. I believe that some uses of it are valid, and others are not.

I want you to back and look at a few of my games. Pick any 3 at random

If you want to meta defense, stop. Any reasonably competent player is capable of copying known town tells and/or otherwise changing their meta.

I don't buy you're town for a second. You're at L-2 and squirming super hard. The townie response is to find and build any decent case, because it'll either save you or be of use to us after we confirm you town via lynch. The

classic scum

response is to prioritize defending yourself, because your primary concern is simply not getting axed.

I've been a part of the majority in every game except one. And on that one game I was the only member of my scum team. That one game was the only time where I didn't get nervous and super defensive when people started getting suspicious of me. In every other game I've been town and this exact same freaking situation happens and it's just the most frustrating thing in the world that it keeps resulting in me either getting mislynched or night killed by the town. I've tried fighting the wagons directly, ignoring them and trying to make cases and nothing seems to help. It feels like mafia isn't even about listening to logic. It's just about death tunneling and following what everyone else does. I'm "squirming hard" because I'm tired of this. You would be too

[BlackStar]

I don't think you were behaving in an unethical manner.

You don't think lying about a players actions is unethical?

dude this is mafia

if lying about a players actions was unethical 3/4th the site would be banned

Unethical as in scummy not unethical as in you deserve to be banned. And I thought you were going to bed. Why are you still here lurking and defending your buddy?

[BlackStar]

In every other game I've been town and this exact same freaking situation happens and it's just the most frustrating thing in the world that it keeps resulting in me either getting mislynched or night killed by the town. I've tried fighting the wagons directly, ignoring them and trying to make cases and nothing seems to help. It feels like mafia isn't even about listening to logic. It's just about death tunneling and following what everyone else does. I'm "squirming hard" because I'm tired of this. You would be too

I do not care. This is not a valid defense.

You are a member of the mafia

. You will be lynched, if town has brains.

That's what they always say. And they're always wrong

[BlackStar]

TBG is not my buddy. If you don't like manipulation, it's odd that you would use loaded questions.

I was going to bed earlier, but now I'm not because it looks like you and Chumba are levying a storm of very badly reasoned accusations against me and I want to be here to show everyone why you are wrong.

That's what they always say. And they're always wrong

BlackStar, appeals to emotion will not work.

How is that loaded? I said buddy, not scum buddy. You guys get along and he called you bad earlier, so I thought you were friends. And I'm not appealing to emotion. I'm telling the truth like I always do.

[BlackStar]

*bae

[BlackStar]

@Brawl I'd rather play closer to my scum game because everyone was town reading me

[BlackStar]

Accountant, do you believe in meta?

I believe that meta exists. I believe that some uses of it are valid, and others are not.

I want you to back and look at a few of my games. Pick any 3 at random

Sure. I picked 3 games from your topics list.

1) Mini 1783: GTA 2 Mafia
2) Mini 1785B: Killer Instinct
3) Micro 601: Traitors amongst us

I forgot to ask what you thought of those games

[BlackStar]

I forgot to ask what you thought of those games

I haven't read them yet, and I probably won't invest the time unless you can concretely explain why they matter to this particular game.

Because I ended up in this same situation in both those games, the town was completely convinced that there was no way I could be town, my reactions were the same and i flipped town. It matters because you're about to make that happen again.

[BlackStar]

Cause cases are inherently scummy and often full of conf bias?

I think we have a different understanding of the word "case", because you've been making a case against TBG for the last few pages, centered around the fact that you think he was lying.

She made a case a long time ago. Go look at it

[BlackStar]

Because I ended up in this same situation in both those games, the town was completely convinced that there was no way I could be town, my reactions were the same and i flipped town. It matters because you're about to make that happen again.

I don't agree, and I don't want to read through those games. I reject your defense based on meta.

VOTE: accountant
A member of the town wouldn't act like this. You're not willing to even attempt to consider that I might be town. And you don't care about if you mislynch me because you don't feel like doing a couple of minutes of reading. That's so anti-town its not even funny

[BlackStar]

Because I ended up in this same situation in both those games, the town was completely convinced that there was no way I could be town, my reactions were the same and i flipped town. It matters because you're about to make that happen again.

I don't agree, and I don't want to read through those games. I reject your defense based on meta.

VOTE: accountant
A member of the town wouldn't act like this. You're not willing to even attempt to consider that I might be town. And you don't care about if you mislynch me because you don't feel like doing a couple of minutes of reading. That's so anti-town its not even funny

If I have like 10 games exactly like this that resulted in me flipping town, why would you reject that and act like its not valid?

[BlackStar]

@Brawl Your post didn't give off the feeling of completely not giving a fuck like his did. He doesn't care if I'm town or not. He's already acted like he's 100% certain i'm scum, so he feels he can't afford to go back on that now. If I have 10+ games exactly like this and i was town in all of those, obviously I can't help playing like this and you need to take that into consideration. Even if there's a chance that I might be scum, there's clearly a much larger chance that I'm town

[BlackStar]

If I have like 10 games exactly like this that resulted in me flipping town, why would you reject that and act like its not valid?

Because I don't believe there is a causal link between your poor behavior and your town alignment, simply because they are correlated.

What poor behavior?

[BlackStar]

He doesn't care if I'm town or not.

I do, absolutely, and I'll start caring once you bring me evidence that actually says something about your alignment. Your 3 games are as useful to me as a Finnish translation of War and Peace for determining your alignment, that is to say none.

He's already acted like he's 100% certain i'm scum

Your number is a little off. I'm about 70-80% sure you're scum, which is higher than anyone else in the game.

obviously I can't help playing like this

This is not obvious to me.

there's clearly a much larger chance that I'm town

This s not clear to me

.

You have to say that though. It helps to justify your anti-town play

[BlackStar]

If I have like 10 games exactly like this that resulted in me flipping town, why would you reject that and act like its not valid?

Because I don't believe there is a causal link between your poor behavior and your town alignment, simply because they are correlated.

What poor behavior?

The fact that you keep squirming and bringing up unrelated things and using appeals to emotion and argument by repetition and appeal to meta and all these unconvincing, scummy things that you keep doing.

Everything I've said is related to the game and none of those things are scummy. And I don't see how you can call any of that poor behavior

[BlackStar]

Everything I've said is related to the game and none of those things are scummy. And I don't see how you can call any of that poor behavior

I don't agree with this. You have said some things that are scummy.

I said that repetition and using meta aren't scummy

[BlackStar]

@Brawl Your post didn't give off the feeling of completely not giving a fuck like his did. He doesn't care if I'm town or not. He's already acted like he's 100% certain i'm scum, so he feels he can't afford to go back on that now. If I have 10+ games exactly like this and i was town in all of those, obviously I can't help playing like this and you need to take that into consideration. Even if there's a chance that I might be scum, there's clearly a much larger chance that I'm town

Even if we were to accept a meta defense, (which would be an awful idea) from our point of view there's not really any way of verifying you play this way exclusively as town as opposed to as both alignments. One game where you were in the mafia and played well is not nearly enough for us to be like "

yup, he always plays well as mafia and poorly as town

".

That's not what I'm saying... Ugh, it doesn't feel like you guys will listen to anything that I say and you all need to look for people who are actually members of the scum team, so here VOTE: blackstar End the day, see that i'm town, spend the night analyzing people's interactions with me and their reasons for joining my wagon. Hopefully tomorrow you go after someone who is in the mafia

[BlackStar]

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, Zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

[BlackStar]

That's not what I'm saying... Ugh, it doesn't feel like you guys will listen to anything that I say and you all need to look for people who are actually members of the scum team, so here VOTE: blackstar End the day, see that i'm town, spend the night analyzing people's interactions with me and their reasons for joining my wagon. Hopefully tomorrow you go after someone who is in the mafia

Dude if you are town never self vote.

Why not?

[BlackStar]

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

meant transcend, not zefiend

[BlackStar]

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, Zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

Go make a case on one/both of them, then, and unvote yourself so we can look at who's willing to help kill you.

The only reason to speed up a lynch on yourself is to give us less to analyze, which is strictly AntiTown.

I want you to move on so that you can scum hunt people who are actually scum. Seems pro town to me. I'll try to make cases though

That's not what I'm saying... Ugh, it doesn't feel like you guys will listen to anything that I say and you all need to look for people who are actually members of the scum team, so here VOTE: blackstar End the day, see that i'm town, spend the night analyzing people's interactions with me and their reasons for joining my wagon. Hopefully tomorrow you go after someone who is in the mafia

Dude if you are town never self vote.

Why not?

That gives us one less vote on you to analyze after you flip.

Selfvoting/hammering as Scum to deny that is kind of weird, but a viable tactic if you're dead sure you're doomed. (pun intended)

[/quote]
I don't know what you're trying to say

[BlackStar]

I'll get started on a case soon

[BlackStar]

I'll get started on a case soon

on??

What?

[BlackStar]

What are you starting a case for...

Accountant

[BlackStar]

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

meant transcend, not zefiend

Weren't you scumreading zefiend for his jump on your before?

I didn't like the way he got my wagon or the fact that he's barely posted, but I wasn't really scum reading him. He's null

[BlackStar]

I don't think you were behaving in an unethical manner.

That's because you're white knighting him

Wait how is he behaving unethically? I don't get it.

Chumba said it, not me

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE:

[BlackStar]

It doesn't feel necessary anymore. I was willing to get lynched so that the town start grilling members of the scum team. People are already questioning players who weren't active before and there's only 1 vote left on me, so there's no point in self voting anymore

[BlackStar]

By the way, I ISOed accountant and I don't think that he's scum anymore. I think my biggest problem with him was that he was death tunneling me but his posts from before that were pretty decent. And rereading everything made me see where he was coming from with his scumread on me

[BlackStar]

By the way, I ISOed accountant and I don't think that he's scum anymore. I think my biggest problem with him was that he was death tunneling me but his posts from before that were pretty decent. And rereading everything made me see where he was coming from with his scumread on me

Man...

Did you ever explain your vote on him?

[BlackStar]

Oh okay. You said that his posts didn't feel genuine. I see that you quoted one post that felt fake to you, but could you quote a few more?

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

P-edit: @Chumba We get that you feel brawl has misrepped you. But you repeating the same thing over and over again for more than 10 pages doesn't seem to be bringing anyone to your side, so maybe it's time you move on or try a different tactic

[BlackStar]

Transcend is not in my lynch pool. Chilledtea is in my lynchpool. BlackStar has to die.

vote chilledtea?

I wouldn't mind, but I really want to get BlackStar. I'm not letting him squirm his way out of a lynch by self voting to look like a gamethrowing townie.

How is that game throwing? All I wanted to do was get everybody's head straight. It didn't matter if I died as long as the town started lynching Mafia from then onwards

[BlackStar]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

[BlackStar]

Also I'm sorry I can't move on cause he's my top scum read so I'm going to keep pressuring him. I'm sorry people are too blinded to see obvious scum in front of their face but I'm not going to give up trying to convince people.

I said move or

change your tactics

[BlackStar]

Yes, but saying "he's misrepped me and he's scum and he's misrepped me!" doesn't seem to be working so far

[BlackStar]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier,

deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content

. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

Before I did it, the game was just you, me chum a and accountant repeating the same things over and over again. Everybody else wasn't posting and it looked like you were all ready to end the day anyway. But after I did it, people who weren't active became active because we started wondering where they were. So it created more discussion and extended the day

[BlackStar]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not voting him for several reasons:

1) He's not caught up. I can't read how he behaves under pressure when he's not reading the thread.
2) He's made 4, now 5 posts. There's not really a whole lot you can do in 5 posts to jump to the top of my scumlist.
3) He eventually has to start posting. He's either going to get replaced, prod-dodge and lurk, or start posting. If he lurks, we vigilante/gunsling/lynch whatever him after he does it. In either of the other two cases, we can get a much better read on his slot then, which is when I'll decide if he's worth a vote.

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

[BlackStar]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier,

deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content

. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

Before I did it, the game was just you, me chum a and accountant repeating the same things over and over again. Everybody else wasn't posting and it looked like you were all ready to end the day anyway. But after I did it, people who weren't active became active because we started wondering where they were. So it created more discussion and extended the day

First off, you doing it didn't create any of those things. Everyone else showed up and started posting simply because they did, it's not as if the content of the thread made them show up.
Secondly, you put yourself at L-1, which is a cardinal sin. If some opportunistic Scum or hammer-happy DerpTown showed up, none of the good things that have happened since would've taken place, because you'd just be dead and the phase would be over.

You'd still be able to talk about the people who were on my wagon, because some of them would've been scum. We would've narrowed down the lynchpool

[BlackStar]

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

You mean like:

Guys, my internet had some issues. I haven't read anything from page 12 so I will need time to catch up again.

Exactly. Dunnstral voted him and he showed up

[BlackStar]

Eh... good point

[BlackStar]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

[BlackStar]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

Why am I town lean? You've spent the last few pages emphasizing how scummy I was.

By the way, I ISOed accountant and I don't think that he's scum anymore. I think my biggest problem with him was that he was death tunneling me but his posts from before that were pretty decent. And rereading everything made me see where he was coming from with his scumread on me

[BlackStar]

And tbh I don't even want to work with anyone who thinks what brawl had done has town motivation. Lying and twisting people's actions aren't town actions and I really question their decision making ability.

Can you quote all the posts you don't like from him and say why you don't like them individually?

[BlackStar]

Wow I'm shit at hyperlinks. The joke is supposed to be that it's a link to my ISO.

Lol

[BlackStar]

4/7 votes with the town being heavily against you isn't close to a lynch? Okay, I'll keep that in mind in the future. And if I don't consider every possibility at all moments in time, it's because I'm scum. Got it.

[BlackStar]

4/7 votes

with the town being heavily against you isn't close to a lynch

? Okay, I'll keep that in mind in the future. And if I don't consider every possibility at all moments in time, it's because I'm scum. Got it.

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

We're all lurkers

[BlackStar]

Ok still feel like chuma is prob town, even with some of her oddly worded posts, I can't see scum being that brazen this early on in general. There are a few players I know who could pull it off, but they are not in this game.

The self vote was lame, DON'T DO THAT However, I can definitely see why he seems scummy to several people, and he seems that way to me even if he did self vote.

He could have thought he was hammering

since there have not been a lot of vote counts.

Then when the pressure is off of him, he puts his vote on the tea wagon which I am not getting here, I think I want to see more from tea before I peg him. Hes a nullish read for me atm and since hes a low poster, with people wagoning him, makes a good place for a scum to jump on in the middle somewhere. The tea wagon feels very much like a counter wagon to BlackStar

VOTE: Blackstar

right when I did it I told you guys to hammer me, end the day and analyze my wagon. I knew that was L-1. You said that I'm scummy and didn't say why you thought that. I don't really get why you believe there's a counter wagon on chilledtea

P-edit: why would I am innocent be a town lean for you? He hasn't said anything, really

[BlackStar]

@braw can you quote some stuff from transcend that you found scummy?

[BlackStar]

Oh, I see the site's finally back up. Welcome RachMarie. Some thoughts.
1) Chumba, here is some food for thought. If you are correct and Brawl is mafia, you are more likely to get him lynched if you drop the narcissism. Like it or not, unlikeable players are usually less likely to be listened to, so it's directly against your win condition if you are town to be arrogant and arasive.

2)

mc and bs are my scum reads atm

What do you think of TBG's argument that MURDERCAT is simply a VI who got jumped on?

3)

right when I did it I told you guys to hammer me, end the day and analyze my wagon. I knew that was L-1. You said that I'm scummy and didn't say why you thought that. I don't really get why you believe there's a counter wagon on chilledtea

Can we just acknowledge this is squirming and lynch BlackStar? Because the quality of his posting has gone down ever since we took pressure off him.

You just call everything that I say squirming.

[BlackStar]

Chumba, here is some food for thought. If you are correct and Brawl is mafia, you are more likely to get him lynched if you drop the narcissism. Like it or not, unlikeable players are usually less likely to be listened to, so it's directly against your win condition if you are town to be arrogant and arasive.

What narcissism? I haven't done anything imo that comes off like I'm narcissistic. I'm confident in my reads and annoyed people are ignoring me without any good reason. I had a very nice post that shows scum intent in brawl's posts and not a single person has responded to it. That's annoying and I hate being ignored when I make very valid points.

You're not listening to anyone when we say that if you want to get him lunched you need to do something other than just repeat that he misrepped you over and over again. I've tried to help you develop a case multiple times and you just keep saying stuff like "if you want to see how he's scummy just look though my ISO". I was trying to get you to put it all in one post again so that everyone could see and maybe if it was a good post people would agree with you. But you're not trying to understand what me and some other people have been saying. I'm frustrated that I keep having to repeat this stuff to you and I really don't want to have to do it again.

[BlackStar]

Nobody finds it scummy that he ignored the person who more matched a person active lurking and instead falsely accused me of it when none of my posts match his own examples?

Nobody finds it weird that when I point out him overlooking dunn's active lurking in the beginning he actually agreed with me yet doesn't push on Dunn?

Nobody finds it weird that he accused me of not asking questions, not giving any reads, and just making observations, and saying he actually read my posts but if he had there's no way he could say those things because they were flat out not true?

There's no town motivation for any of these things. There is certainly scum motivation for it.

Maybe he thought I looked like an easy target cause my l-2 vote on murder. Maybe he's scum with murder, maybe he's trying to WK murder. Who knows but saying untrue things over and over again is not town. If people town read them you really don't want to know what I'm thinking. I won't post it though cause I'm a nice girl but let's say it's not very nice thoughts at all.

This isn't you quoting specific parts that you found scummy. That's what I asked for.

[BlackStar]

Once again, I'm not a sing you to do this for me. I'm trying to help you present your case. Just do it, man

[BlackStar]

I didn't respond because I don't remember the things you're referring to. It's not a cop out. This game is 30 pages long already. You can't expect us to remember everything that everyone has said. That's why I aided for quotes

[BlackStar]

*asked

[BlackStar]

I was about to tell you that I was done with you

[BlackStar]

Oh, I see the site's finally back up. Welcome RachMarie. Some thoughts.
1) Chumba, here is some food for thought. If you are correct and Brawl is mafia, you are more likely to get him lynched if you drop the narcissism. Like it or not, unlikeable players are usually less likely to be listened to, so it's directly against your win condition if you are town to be arrogant and arasive.

2)

mc and bs are my scum reads atm

What do you think of TBG's argument that MURDERCAT is simply a VI who got jumped on?

3)

right when I did it I told you guys to hammer me, end the day and analyze my wagon. I knew that was L-1. You said that I'm scummy and didn't say why you thought that. I don't really get why you believe there's a counter wagon on chilledtea

Can we just acknowledge this is squirming and lynch BlackStar?

Because the quality of his posting has gone down ever since we took pressure off him.

Didn't notice this until now. You basically just admitted that I was making good points earlier when you were grilling me. So why were you acting like everything that I was saying was horrible? And how is the quality lower now?

[BlackStar]

You basically just admitted that I was making good points earlier when you were grilling me. So why were you acting like everything that I was saying was horrible?

Do you know what "grilling" means?

Yeah.

[BlackStar]

Can you answer the questions though?

[BlackStar]

I'd ask you again to explain how the quality has gone down, but I know you'll just make another silly post.

[BlackStar]

Do you know what complacent means?

[BlackStar]

Do you know what complacent means?

I think that you feel the spotlight is off you so you're free to go around spreading shit.

The only one doing that right now is you.

[BlackStar]

Blackstar who are you pushing on

Well, I voted Chilledtea because I wanted to pressure him into posting more and he made a couple of posts but then the site went down and he hasn't come back yet. He's null so far. I'd rather save my vote for someone who really deserves it than just have it sit there doing nothing.

UNVOTE:

I guess I'll reread some stuff

[BlackStar]

Whore you pushing, Dunn?

[BlackStar]

*who are

[BlackStar]

I haven't tried to push chumba at all. What're you talking about? And accountant just loves to fling shit at me nonstop, so I just offer rebuttal

[BlackStar]

You are spreading shit. Your reads are way off and you've been death tunneling nonstop for like 15 pages. If you just chill out and look at things calmly you'd see that you're just trying desperately to justify your initial read. Just because I think you're town doesn't mean that k can't find your posts bad

[BlackStar]

I think BlackStar isn't consistent about his reads and pushes because he doesn't care who dies as long as it's not him.

Lol okay

[BlackStar]

No I'm not. I never said you were throwing them at everyone opportunistically.

[BlackStar]

Do you agree that you're death tunneling?

[BlackStar]

Sub me out.

I can't give this game the attention it deserves, give my slot to someone who can.

I think this is a sign that you guys were right about him being scum

[BlackStar]

Who're you pushing, Dunn?

Why did you even ask me this? Does it matter to you

Yeah. For all I knew you could've been into someone

[BlackStar]

*onto

[BlackStar]

You are spreading shit. Your reads are way off and you've been death tunneling nonstop for like 15 pages

I don't have scumreads other than MURDERCAT, for reasons already discussed to death, and some inactives, who I'm waiting to post/defend themselves. Currently MURDERCAT sits at around 65% on my scum list and he's not very active. BlackStar is an actice wagon sitting at a whopping 85%,

plus every time I jump on him he digs himself deeper into a hole.

So it makes sense to focus on BlackStar.

not really. You just misinterpret everything I say and twist it around to be scummy.

[BlackStar]

Sub me out.

I can't give this game the attention it deserves, give my slot to someone who can.

I think this is a sign that you guys were right about him being scum

How do you figure?

You presented a good case against him and got someone to join his wagon. It's possible that he felt like more votes were coming so he subbed out before he could get lynched. I mean, that timing is pretty weird

[BlackStar]

Btw mobile posting isn't a good excuse for lack of content. Every post I've made this game has been from a mobile device

Me too

[BlackStar]

@dunn its a town lean based on meta from playing games, and is not super strong, which is why I want to see more from him.

Can you explain this meta to everyone? Also, I'd like to know why people said meta was a bad defense when I used it but don't care at all when rachmarie used to explain her read

[BlackStar]

You didn't answer the question of what meta you're basing your read

[BlackStar]

The ban/restriction thread is loaded with ones for strategic replacing. Regardless of the rules/enforcement, I think it's pretty obviously unethical to do such a thing, so Transcend wouldn't do it.

Interesting. I just searched the tread with the word replacement, replace, and strategic and couldn't find a single example. Maybe search is broken or it doesn't exsist. The only replacement punishment I ever remember seeing was a player who made a habit of replacing out as one alignment.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66358

[BlackStar]

Pretty sure ConvergentConclusion is still in this game and needs to be replaced as well

Who is that? Didn't even know they were in the game

[BlackStar]

Games with IaI

Dr Who Mafia
IaI Scum
(I was the primary half of the hydra Twin Flames with my ex Nobody Special) We were town
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=29725

Gonzo Mafia
IaI Town
I was also town
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=26830

You Can Be Anything II
IaI Town
I was one half of the sk team with The Way it Ends
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59268

It is a light town lean read, mainly based on the fact he let us know what is going on in his life, instead of just lurking it out. If I had not played with him before in several games, it would be null. He tends to be a fairly active poster no matter what his alignment. So his lack of posting here is not a scum tell.

Still think we need to focus on players who have posted more at this point, not all scum lurk after all.

Lynch all Lurkers is more likely to hurt town than scum.

I have done it too at times when life was hectic. Did not mean I was scum.

It is D1 we need as much info as possible with our lynch today. Who is the scummiest of the more active players is where we should be looking.

That's definitely not true.

[BlackStar]

Day 1 ends on the 28th, not sure why we're talking about quicklynching someone who's inactive

When did anyone say anything about quick lynching?

[BlackStar]

Day 1 ends on the 28th, not sure why we're talking about quicklynching someone who's inactive

Not sure since we have not had a vc in several pages, but I believe the biggest wagon was on BlackStar who is active, with a counterwagon on tea who is far less active.

Which one do you think is more likely to give us info?

Which do you think has been more scummy?

Keeping my vote on Black

But not pushing me at all. Interesting.

[BlackStar]

Ok still feel like chuma is prob town, even with some of her oddly worded posts, I can't see scum being that brazen this early on in general. There are a few players I know who could pull it off, but they are not in this game.

The self vote was lame, DON'T DO THAT However, I can definitely see why he seems scummy to several people, and he seems that way to me even if he did self vote. He could have thought he was hammering since there have not been a lot of vote counts.

Then when the pressure is off of him, he puts his vote on the tea wagon which I am not getting here, I think I want to see more from tea before I peg him. Hes a nullish read for me atm and since hes a low poster, with people wagoning him, makes a good place for a scum to jump on in the middle somewhere. The tea wagon feels very much like a counter wagon to BlackStar

VOTE: Blackstar

What I'm saying is that this explanation for you vote feels weak. And your indirect way of trying get me lynched doesn't feel like you're really trying at all

[BlackStar]

It's like you're trying to appear like you're doing something when really you're just saying nothing

[BlackStar]

I can give myself th authority and make this game suck really bad

It already does suck. We're all completely out of sync and jumping down each other's throats. Half the players either aren't posting or they replace out. And there are 2 people who are illogically death tunneling

[BlackStar]

What part of him being an early adopter reads town to you? If he had jumped on with whole-hearted support I'd maybe see it the same way. He didn't, though. His only reasoning was "wagons are fun", which left him open to exit cleanly if the wagon went south. He didn't actually voice that he thought mcat was scum until it was clear that the wagon had caught on.

Huh that actually makes a ton of sense. Your argument seems to be that he isn't contributing much though - do you think he's active lurking? I don't think he is.

Precisely. Taken from the page on Active Lurking:

"Active Lurking is the act of posting (thus differentiating it from ordinary Lurking), but the material posted is irrelevant or otherwise useless for scumhunting.
Examples of active lurking include ... general bland agreement with whatever is going on."

@everyone

: Does that not describe the Chumba ISO to you?

Do you agree that murdercat fits with your definition of active lurking?

[BlackStar]

I don't see how the number of posts in the thread has anything to do with it. His amount of content compared to the others was poor when the thread had 4 pages. If you pretend that we've had no more than 4 pages, and look purely at pages 2, 3, and 4, (i.e. all of chumba's posts) and look at how much real content he has compared to dunn/accountant/mcat, he just doesn't stack up.

It's not that he hasn't given enough content. It's that he was

here and posting

and yet didn't create much of any.

How much decent content can you even expect from someone that early in the game?

[BlackStar]

Also, again, my main point is that he voted mcat with the only stated reasoning being "wagons are fun", proceeded to make null points, and only actually indicated any real suspicion of mcat 2 pages later when the wagon was clearly going.

How is that alignment indicative?

P-edit: @dunn I figured that you'd explain your read eventually. I'm down to lynch murdercat. He's the scummiest (semi) active player in the game right now

P-edit: Chumba has been so sure about brawl that I decided to look at his posts again. Because I know chumba doesn't believe in using quotes when making a case

[BlackStar]

What part of him being an early adopter reads town to you? If he had jumped on with whole-hearted support I'd maybe see it the same way. He didn't, though. His only reasoning was "wagons are fun", which left him open to exit cleanly if the wagon went south. He didn't actually voice that he thought mcat was scum until it was clear that the wagon had caught on.

My posts after my vote clearly show support of the wagon. Why do you dismiss those posts? I called murdercat out on something that accountant was really having trouble communicating. You also seem too worried about something you "think" could happen which is weird to me. Why not wait and see it actually happen and then attack me? That's what I think somebody who was looking for scum actions would do, trying to discredit them for something they haven't even done and you don't even know if I am even going to do it just seems deceptive.

I don't see how any of them but #65 do, sorry.

I'm also not sure why you're saying I'm worried about something I think could happen. I'm worried about what did actually happen. You voted without ever stating you thought mcat was suspicious, waited two pages until the wagon caught on, and then voiced suspicion once it was safe to do so. This is an age-old scumtell. Waiting would make no sense. I'm not going to sit on a scumread and let other wagons build - why on Earth would I ever do that?

everyone: Does that not describe the Chumba ISO to you?

That 100% does not look like any of my posts actually. I was directly interacting with/pushing on the person I was voting.

To me, it looked like a lot of you talking to him but not actually doing anything committal. I only see the one post that I would call pushing, your #65, which I admit is a solid post.

The fact you have played on this site since 2011 and said the above really makes me doubt you are town. I can't imagine an experienced Mafia player would ever believe that

1) I have about 3 games on-site, you should really do your research on that.
2) I've actually been playing since '09 elsewhere.

I feel he's been mostly prompted into it as a result of how crazy aggressive Accountant has been and how many other people have been on him. The more aggressive people are being towards you, the more okay responding defensively is. Mcat's defensiveness is proportional to the aggression against him, BlackStar's is not. I also feel that he's had a less defensive tone than BlackStar in general, although that's obviously not as substantial.

Sorry that doesn't work for me. I mean lets ignore you are wrong about defensiveness. If you actually believe what you said you would have explained it better at the time. Going back now and saying his defensiveness was justified doesnt gel with your belief of defensive behavior.

I said, and I quote, "defensiveness is

typically

a scumtell". You see that really important word in bold there? I didn't say "lynch all defensive people", which is what it seems you've read.

Secondly, dismissing me saying it by you going "lol", and then again here without ever stating why you believe I'm wrong does nothing but throw mud at me. This doesn't help the Town at all, but trying to discredit me when I'm the primary pusher of you does help you a lot if you're Scum.

I don't like how you act like the only reason Chumba could've said that his vote was serious is because other people did it first. It's entirely possible for someone to legitimately agree with points that others have made and decide that someone is scum. Yet you act like its something that mostly scum do. Townies do it all the time

[BlackStar]

Alright, all caught up.

I'm more sold on my Chumba vote now than ever. I wouldn't say she OMGUS'd me, but I find it incredibly convenient that she's managed to avoid giving any real reads the BlackStar or MURDERCAT cases by tunneling me this hard. The crazy storm of posts against me hides that

she is no longer pushing mcat at all

, which no reasoning has been given for. This is particularly scummy to me, since she's doubled down on saying she was on mcat since she thought he was Scum. Pushing me as hard as she as is would be fine if it came with other reads, but it has not. As it is, it's just a great way to appear useful without giving opinions on the major cases.

Secondly, I also really don't like her posts on other people, either. She makes some good observations, but that's it, she's just observing. A lot of things get called "weird", but weird =/= scummy. Even if you were to assume she always meant scummy when she said weird,

she never actually says she's scumreading anyone who isn't me

. Making a ton of observations, but never developing them into actual cases or reads is another classic way to seem Town without helping the Town.

This is bs. You were pushing her hard and going after her so of course she's going to devote most of her time to defending herself against you. When people push their cases against me and I'm town, their points seem ridiculous to me because I know they're wrong. I can't help but want to show them how wrong they are so that we can get back to scum hunting. Based on the way Chumba has reacted to you throughout the game, I'm guessing she's the same way. And it's pretty easy to get that weird means "giving off scummy vibes".

[BlackStar]

I already said no I'm not turning my arrogance down. I can't change who I am

You might want to find a way. Who you are appears to be kind of a dick.

I guess this is what made Chumba become so infuriated that she was determined to get you lynched.

You wanna BlackStar wagon with me? Neither of us like each other, but let's be real, Chumbawagon and Brawlwagon aren't going, and we're getting nothing done ramming into each other. As much as your cockiness perturbs me, I view it as a towntell. Looking back on that whole argument, I can see it being town v. town. You seem so genuinely pissed I want to believe you're not faking it. I still read you as Scum, but I see how I could be wrong in that and I think we both get more from pushing BlackStar.

I'll go first. VOTE: BlackStar

The rest of this post doesn't sit well with me either. It seems like you might've seen that the Chumba wagon wasn't gaining momentum so you decided to try and form a truce and move onto an easier target. You said earlier that it's common for scum to join a wagon after others have done it and they feel it's safe. You mentioned scum reading me earlier but didn't vote me until this point when others made more comments about my scum ones. So if you did the same thing that you said made Chumba scummy, why was it not scummy when you did it?

[BlackStar]

1) Can we not shit up the thread with terrible arguments like the whole of page 37? It just makes inactives discouraged to catch up/post

2)

And there are 2 people who are illogically death tunneling

Do you think Chumba is death tunnelling on TBG?

3) Dunnstral: I believe strongly that we should kill BlackStar, but I'm open to the possibility of MURDERCAT.

4)

This is bs. You were pushing her hard and going after her so of course she's going to devote most of her time to defending herself against you. When people push their cases against me and I'm town, their points seem ridiculous to me because I know they're wrong. I can't help but want to show them how wrong they are so that we can get back to scum hunting. Based on the way Chumba has reacted to you throughout the game, I'm guessing she's the same way. And it's pretty easy to get that weird means "giving off scummy vibes".

Don't you think that a town who found the cases ridiculous would simply roll their eyes and dismiss the idiot, and go back to

actual

scumhunting? It's reasonable to spend some time defending yourself, but it's counterproductive if you spend so much time defending yourself that you can't scumhunt properly.

Duh. It's not like this is the first time I've brought it up. But I'm beginning to think maybe Chumba is onto something. Question. If you've said throughout the entire game that you scumread Murdercat, why did you say in this post that you're "open to the possibility of it"?

[BlackStar]

And I don't get you're not considering the possibility that he's trying to manipulate people as scum.

Here, I'll say it to the goddamn thread.

I was manipulating the thread. I will continue to manipulate the thread. I do this action as Scum and Town because it's always good for you when the Town is behind you.

Let it rest already. If you think I'm scum actually make a damn case.

Still can't get over the fact that you think manipulating people is townie behavior

[BlackStar]

@braw can you quote some stuff from transcend that you found scummy?

There's not really one post I can point to and call scummy. It's more of an overall pattern of posts that I dislike. Hence, I'll just leave his ISO here.

It mainly comes down to these things.

1) How he doesn't push Accoutant. He lists Accountant as his #1 scum read at time when there's no wagon with more than a vote, and other people have indicated suspicion of him, but does actually nothing to pressure him or try to convince anyone to vote him. If he were Town, this is a perfect opportunity to get his preferred lynch candidate's wagon going. If he's Scum, I can see him being too spooked to lead a wagon he knows is a ML, since he's new and hasn't played Scum before, preferring to just drive-by vote a seemingly good candidate and wait for someone else to lead.

2) Before Accountant, his BlackStar vote is awful. His justification is "BlackStar has been very bad and has made a few scummy votes and a few potentially forced lines.", which is one of the most incredibly vague statements I've heard in this game. It leaves him so incredibly open to just wait and see what the Town agrees with and then parrot it back to look townie. I asked him specifically to explain this and a few others circa #250 and he still has not done so.

3) In a more general sense, I don't like how he posts a reads list with only one sentence justification on each player, says he can go into more detail, is asked to go into more detail, and doesn't. It reads as Scum trying to look helpful without being helpful.

4) The general fluffiness of his posts is pretty bad. They're mostly one-sentence filler that don't involve actual scumhunting.

tl;dr I think Transcend is playing the way he would if this were his first Scum game ever. Really passive, safe play attempting to stay out of the spotlight with little content, by avoiding leading or scumhunting.

*sigh*

UNVOTE: Transcend VOTE: BlackStar

we should revisit this slot later, but there's nothing to be gained from pushing it now, really

So you post a case against Trasvend and one of the things you say against him is that he gave a weak and forced reason for why he voted me. Okay. So if you find that scummy, why you would move your vote back to me just because he replaced out? If he was opportunistically voting me, that would make me town. So why would you decide to vote for me?

[BlackStar]

I've basically just tuned out BlackStar at this point not even sure what he's saying right now

Try actually listening. It'll help.

[BlackStar]

VOTE: brawl

[BlackStar]

I'm going to sleep

[BlackStar]

@Dunnstral:

Sell me on Rach

Alright alright

875 felt like a weird post - seems like she goes beyond what's necessary to try and explain her town read on IAI (and I still think it's weird after seeing that but the read itself isn't why I'm voting her)

The way she's "pushing" BlackStar is by saying we shouldn't lynch inactives - lol?

Doesn't actually get direct with Blackstar

I'm getting this feeling like she's trying to be reserved and non-confrontational

Additionally, just the fact that I'm not really seeing her as town makes me more inclined to believe she's straight up mafia.

I said some other stuff about her too earlier, might overlap a bit

Surprisingly little happened over those 13~ or so pages. If there's anything in particular that you want me to talk about, feel free to mention it in case I missed anything.

I'm kind of feeling like I'm not contributing anything

And then I look at what other people are posting and go "oh I'm fine"

I agree. She's said that I'm scummy multiple times but isn't really doing anything to try and get me lynched

[BlackStar]

Scummiest to nullest

Brawl
Murdercat
Rach

[BlackStar]

I'm no longer a scum read? the fuck

your read on me keeps penduluming

No it doesn't. You're just not reading the game I said you were scum when you first started tunneling me, then I changed my mind. I never went back and said you were scum again. So stop making things up because it's really getting annoying

[BlackStar]

His strategy isn't trying to appease anyone or get town read,

it's to push counter wagons aggressively so he won't get lynched today.

Also the self vote is NAI at best and scum claiming at worst, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/a3zqvrH40Cdhu/giphy.gif[/b]

[BlackStar]

lol fail

[BlackStar]

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

meant transcend, not zefiend

How do you mess up something like that?

They both didn't post much and zefiend voted me at one point so I had them confused. Pretty easy mistake.

If you're actually Town don't be a goddamn anchor and let some Scum/Derptown hammer you. Ever. if you're going to go down, you go down.

Man up and try to be helpful before you do so that you might actually win the game later.

That's what I'm doing. When I get hammered and flip, you can look at everyone's reasons for joining my wagon. Murdercat, Zefiend and accountant seem the most suspicious

Where did your scumread of mine go? I haven't done anything in the time period

from where you poise your suspicion on me and from what I gather neither has zefiend? Accountant and murdercat (from your scum list) are the only ones who were posting in that time frame.

I don't remember what was going on at that point

[BlackStar]

Pretty sure I didn't say that I had a scumread on you back then

[BlackStar]

Well you did say I am not even trying to figure out the game. I correlated that with a scum read.

Nope. More like slight suspicion. You were null

[BlackStar]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

If you weren't scum reading me, then why did you vote me here?

This post is literally 100 posts after the first one you posted. Your questions are getting more and more pointless.

[BlackStar]

Well you did say I am not even trying to figure out the game. I correlated that with a scum read.

Nope. More like slight suspicion. You were null

Really?

Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

That says something different to me...

And that's from after I voted him. Obviously if I voted him, he moved into the scum pile

[BlackStar]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

If you weren't scum reading me, then why did you vote me here?

This post is literally 100 posts after the first one you posted. Your questions are getting more and more pointless.

It isn't pointless because I had no activity between those two points. You reads developed on me conveniently as derek and transcend came into the picture with their reads.

So yes, it isn't pointless.

It is pointless. When people present cases against someone, it has an effect on your reads. Only a psycho would have static reads throughout the entire game. Oh no, Blackstar changed his reads after people posted why they thought chilled was scummy! Only scum would do that! Do you see how silly that sounds?

[BlackStar]

Well you did say I am not even trying to figure out the game. I correlated that with a scum read.

Nope. More like slight suspicion. You were null

Really?

Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

That says something different to me...

And that's from after I voted him. Obviously if I voted him, he moved into the scum pile

Why are you being difficult. You just said recently you never said you had a scum read on him and now you are saying you did have a scum read on him.

I'm not being difficult. You misunderstood me. I never said that I never scum read him. Here's the post you're talking about:

Pretty sure I didn't say that I had a scumread on you back then

I said that I didnt say I was scum reading at the point that he quoted in that first post. And that's true. The two of you are just arguing with me about nothing right now.

[BlackStar]

Where's Brawl?

[BlackStar]

What's scummy about not having a case already prepared? When I feel like people's posts are scummy I vote them and then later I go back to find the specific posts that I didn't like.

[BlackStar]

Can you stop doing that?

[BlackStar]

You need to reread page 42 because you didn't understand what happened

[BlackStar]

Oh yeah, and it's not scummy to change your reads.

[BlackStar]

BlackStar changing your mind isn't scummy but you have to draw a line at some point otherwise there's no accountability(pun intended)

Hopefully everyone holds you accountable and starts ignoring you if I get lynched

[BlackStar]

Not really. They blame your of the mislynch and no longer value your opinion pretty straight forward

[BlackStar]

*for

[BlackStar]

You're still sore about that LyLo then, chilled?

to some extent I feel that IAI//KAAG/Transcend could be scum.

Is there anything to this read other than lack of activity from IAI/my predecessor? (Transcend I get). Also, do you think saying "X could be scum" is useful: does it not apply to everyone?

The game hasn't played out in the way games play normally. Most games don't have 44 pages on day 1. The game started out with a huge burst of activity within 5 or so hours and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here since you are a replacement, you probably don't realize this.

I did realize that, but you were online almost constantly in our last game, so I was expecting more content, even taking that into account.

No, it doesn't apply to everyone.

One of the most classical scum moves is to lurk in background while town fight it amongst themselves.

I don't think others are guilty of this.

That was regarding your predecessor and IAI.

Regarding content, my content always differs with situation. A situation like lylo is different to day 1.

So if I'm scum then why didn't I do that?

[BlackStar]

MC is probably town. His case on blackstar is bad though.

It feels like it is full of confirmation bias.

VOTE : Blackstar

I think this is best choice for lynch today. I disagree with MC regarding this but I feel MC could be town because of his defence of blackstar seems sincere. Further I find it really difficult to believe that scum would defend their buddies in this manner, and MC is probably not experienced as scum (I don't really know this) to use wifom at this level.

For what it's worth he did something similar in our last game so unless he is trying to fool me here, in which case he is successful, I think he is town.

That describes the vast majority of the posts that you and accountant have made

[BlackStar]

Not really. They blame your of the mislynch and no longer value your opinion pretty straight forward

That makes no sense. You listed me as a townread, so you know that I'm town and you should want my opinions to be heard. Why would a town member want to silence another own member? Are you scum trying to silence someone you know is town?

Your opinions blow. If the town is going to win, they need to not follow you anymore

[BlackStar]

If I was scum, how would me saying that silence you? Everyone would know that I scum when I flipped and they'd ignore what I said. Your post makes no sense and you're trying to hard to make me seem scummy

[BlackStar]

If I was scum, how would me saying that silence you? Everyone would know that I scum when I flipped and they'd ignore what I said. Your post makes no sense and you're trying to hard to make me seem scummy

I think you're scum who's trying to make me look unreliable ahead of time, so town won't listen to me - your argument about flipping doesn't make sense, because it's clear to me that you're pushing for a counterwagon and trying not to get lynched today.

You still make no sense

[BlackStar]

There's no sense in what you're saying. You're saying I'm trying to make you seem unreliable. If I flip scum like you keep saying that I will, why would the town listen to anything that I said about you? There's no way I could make you seem unreliable if I flipped scum. You're talking gibberish

[BlackStar]

There's no sense in what you're saying. You're saying I'm trying to make you seem unreliable. If I flip scum like you keep saying that I will, why would the town listen to anything that I said about you? There's no way I could make you seem unreliable if I flipped scum. You're talking gibberish

You do not intend to flip at all. You intend to squirm your way out of a lynch and keep spreading shit.

I haven't spread shit. That's what you keep doing. You're making things up and you even admitted that you're trying to make me seem unreliable. And you need to stop shaking that ok squirming because you clearly don't know what that really means

[BlackStar]

What does that even mean? You seem 100% that he's scum so what are you doing right now? Trying to convince others? I don't think misrepping is the way to do that.

I'm not misrepping.

Not really. They blame your of the mislynch and no longer value your opinion pretty straight forward

That makes no sense. You listed me as a townread, so you know that I'm town and you should want my opinions to be heard. Why would a town member want to silence another own member? Are you scum trying to silence someone you know is town?

Like, are you telling me you don't understand what he's saying here? If you're not going to have a real conversation why even engage him?

I'm trying to make him look unreliable.

[BlackStar]

I don't scum read murdercat anymore. When he started defending me I was wondering if he was scum that wanted to look good after my flip because he was defending me really hard. But now I think he's town who just actually sees that I'm not scum.

[BlackStar]

Accountant, can you give reads on all players. Just a quick list; I understand you want BS lynched but I'd like to know where you currently are on the others.

BlackStar, what do you think of Transcend?

I legitimately can't remember anything that he's even said. That's kind of a red flag. Who replaced him again?

[BlackStar]

That post is not about me, it is about clarity so that town can get on the same page and find scum. Scum want to cause misdirection and ambiguity.

This post makes it seem like you're trying too hard to look like a member of the town.

[BlackStar]

This was always about you. There's no misdirection. Brawl mentioned that you gave him bad vibes and then you showed up and made two posts that felt off. You want us to not comment on that?

[BlackStar]

Accountant, can you give reads on all players. Just a quick list; I understand you want BS lynched but I'd like to know where you currently are on the others.

BlackStar, what do you think of Transcend?

I legitimately can't remember anything that he's even said. That's kind of a red flag. Who replaced him again?

You can get a selection of his posts from the Spoilered case I posted near top of this page. Pants is his replacement.

Pretty good case. I don't like how devoid of substance Transcend's posts were. Pants needs time to catch up, but I think I'll leave some pressure on him anyway.
VOTE: pants

[BlackStar]

This was always about you. There's no misdirection. Brawl mentioned that you gave him bad vibes and then you showed up and made two posts that felt off. You want us to not comment on that?

this is the first post you've made i agree with, i think

You agreed that murdercat was actively lurking earlier

[BlackStar]

Looks to me like you felt like you hadn't done anything a while and wanted it to look like you were doing something. Feels like you are trying way too hard to look busy. Plus I think putting yourself in there looks bad too, like you really want people to think you're town.

Uh I was specifically asked to give a full reads list

The percentages are what make it bs