Mini 1785: Game Over!

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1785 - Catchup Notes

0. Ircher == Calvary == Banana
Max == Fire
Postie == Autti
Exp == Jake

1. Page 2 -

The back and forth between Jake and Acryon just doesn't feel authentic. Acryon has this... condescending tone to Jake, and Jake (much to my surprise) is actually keeping a fairly calm demeanor. If anything, I think this is TvT or TvS but not SvS. -

Null-Indicative (Jake); Null-Scum-Indicative (Acryon)

2. Page 3 -

Some

townreads for Mee and Jake

cuz I like their approch. Acryon gets more

scumreads

for continuing to argue over semantics, call/"hope" people are scum, and in general being unhelpful while trying to look useful.

3. Page 8 -

I hated Mini 1763. Why are Garmr and Lapsa bringing it up so much and trying to feel like they accomplished something? No one accomplished anything in that game, and quite frankly, I'm inclined to scumread both of them for it.... -

Null-Scum-Indicative

4. Page 9 -

Uggh... I can tell already I'm gonna have a hard time surviving here. I kinda agree with Mee and my slogan is "Scummy != Scum". Just cuz someone does scummy stuff or commit scumtells doesn't necessarily mean they are scum. Being defensive is one of those so-called scumtell; it doesn't auto-make you scum. Mee has a very recent join date and quite frankly, the motivation I see behind his actions read as town with inexperience to it.

5. 279 - Mee white-knights Kush -

Not sure what to make of this. It'll be interesting given a Kusk flip. -

Null-Indicative

6. 295 - Lapsa refuses to give reads because of personal issues/drama -

Imho, that's rather scummy. Especially when you are fairly close to being lynched. -

Scum-Indicative

7. Page 14 -

Murdercat's complete lack of very basic comprehension with Garmr reads very odd & scum-motivated. See 338 and 340. Then, 343 and 345 seems like easy attempts to push a lynch on Garmr simply cuz Garmr didn't read / skimmed the rules. Murder is making something that isn't a scumtell into a scumtell, and it is quite obvious to me that Murder set this up on purpose. -

Very Scum-Indicative

8. 374 - Lapsa self-votes (!) -

This feels scum-motivated. It just feels that way. -

Very Scum-Indicative

9. 375 - Jar takes strong stance against Lapsa wagon; give no supporting reasons -

There's too many scum in this game................ -

Scum-Indicative

10. 532 - Kush states "But the thing is, I know exactly how scummy it will look but I say it anyway to show you guys I'm not afraid to look scummy. That's how you know I'm town." -

In other words, "I on purposely do scummy stuff for towncred". Lynch it folks! PS: It sure feels like this game is multiball. -

Very Scum-Indicative

11. 534 - Jar's description of Mee's contradictory read. -

Scummy != scum -

Null-Indicative

- My eye is killing me right now.....

Also:

VOTE: Postie.

She's confirmed scum; let's Qlynch her today.

[Ircher]

RC, laim

[Ircher]

RC needs to claim.

[Ircher]

lol I have a guilty on radiantcowbells

So do I.

[Ircher]

is postie confirmed scum btw?

Yes.

I have a real guilty on RC.

[Ircher]

I'm deputy aka backup cop.
Ircher's scum. there's a jailkeep and possibly a vigilante and the nk was probably made at Postie.

VOTE: Ircher

Gunsmith is the real investigative in this setup.

I am the gunsmith.....

[Ircher]

Thats why Postie is confirmed scum gunsmith.

[Ircher]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gunsmith

RC could be telling the truth, as Gunsmiths get guilties on backup cops.

But, I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

Either way, Postie is the best lynch.

[Ircher]

Oh, and my catchup went to pg 27.

I only knew about the gunsmith claim cuz I saw something about claims & then proceeded to search for that word.

[Ircher]

@RC
Are you truly a backup cop? I find that hard to believe just cuz.... You fakeclaim cop a lot but know there's a gunsmith in this setup.....

[Ircher]

If Postie is a Mafia Gunsmith, then it makes sense.

The only funny thing is that Postie & I apparently targeted the same person but got different results. Postie got no result but I got a guilty (has a gun)

If there is a vig, I definitely think there is a JK.

[Ircher]

The only thing I can say for certain is that Postie is mafia since I am just a plain gunsmith with no modifiers. Two town gunsmiths is practically zero.

If you lynch me today, you must definitely lynch Postie tomorrow and deal with RC the day after.

Otherwise, we lynch Postie today and deal with RC tomorrow as Postie's flip should confirm my role.

[Ircher]

Also, if this was scum Ircher with scum RC, why would I 1) Investigate RC and 2) Force my partner to have to come up with a fakeclaim?

[Ircher]

Hello, do you guys not understand??? It is 100% plausible that RC and I are the same team. It is 100% implausible that Postie and I are the same alignment. My flip does not affect RC's alignment and vice-versa.

[Ircher]

I replaced in to a bad position it seems. We're either lynching myself or Postie, as lynching RC will tell us nothing right now, since Postie could be scum Gunsmith.

[Ircher]

WAIT A SECOND.
If Mafia thinks that there's an SK: that explains why Postie would claim as Gunsmith. Non-threatening to serial killers.
Especially if they also have a doc.

Generally, SK's are announced, but that sounds reasonable.

@Everyone
One other thing: Why am I more likely than Postie to be mafia?

[Ircher]

Personally, I think the one who decides to claim No Result is more suspicious, but that's just me.

[Ircher]

Also, since Postie and I are likely the only 2 possible investigative roles, I wouldn't make this decision lightly.

[Ircher]

Also, since Postie and I are likely the only 2 possible investigative roles, I wouldn't make this decision lightly.

what does this mean?

It means that if you lynch the town gunsmith, town likely no longer has a town investigative role.

[Ircher]

One other thing: Why am I more likely than Postie to be mafia?

@ least 2 reasons:

- seems weird that postie happened to pick a role that was already in the game

- Calvary didnt counter

1) What if Postie is a scum Gunsmith? Having both town & scum gunsmiths is perfectly normal and prob better for balance

2) As a town investigative, that's a bad idea D1. Plus, others said it was the better move.

[Ircher]

Ircher has no motive to directly counterclaim Postie, especially if scum already have a roleblocker.

maybe he does though.
by the time ircher came to the thread he had 3 votes, nobody else had a vote and calvary's play was whack.
maybe he was instructed in day-chat to get a counter-claim in early as he'll likely be lynched otherwise.

And, this theead opened Midnight my time. So, null

[Ircher]

Don't "what" me. I live Eastern Time US; this thread opened around midnight my time.

Why did I target RC? Cuz RC is very difficult to sort and I wanted to know if I could sheep him or not this game.

[Ircher]

I believe thats L-1.

[Ircher]

No,

Day 2 started midnight my time

[Ircher]

L-1 Postie

[Ircher]

VC 2.01

acryon (1):

Expedience

Ircher (3):

Maxous, I Am Innocent, RadiantCowbells

Postie (1): Ircher

RadiantCowbells (2):

Dwlee99, Mr Meeseeks

Not Voting (4):

acryon, MURDERCAT, Postie, JarJarDrinks

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2016-05-15 00:00:00)

Ircher (2) - Inno, Postie
Postie (4) - Ircher, Exp, Dwlee, RC
Not Voting: Acryon, Murder, Jar, Max, Mee

[Ircher]

A third canidate?

And, a Postie flip proves nothing about RC.

[Ircher]

I dont understand the Dwlee implication.....

[Ircher]

Would anyone like to catch me up on what happend in the last 30 pages of D1?

[Ircher]

I dont understand the Dwlee implication.....

Why are you so concerned w/ what happens if Postie flips town?

Just trying to understand Mee's viewpoint.

[Ircher]

In case there is a doctor....

[Ircher]

Murder = Davsto? If so, that vote should count imho.

[Ircher]

Disappointing......

[Ircher]

Someone hammer. I dislike the silence and the wait when nothing useful is happening in the wait.

[Ircher]

When you're finished, pls hammer unless you have something important to say

[Ircher]

Why not? This game is currently boring as we basically covered al l of today's talk.

[Ircher]

Yes.

[Ircher]

Oh, and regarding why I want a hammer: 1) I already know Postie is scum 2) We've basically said everything we should D2 3) The large amount of silence is boring & dragging this out at this point is imo not neccessary.

[Ircher]

my guts saying that the town doc should claim but only if they protected postie last night since that would confirm postie as town

No, it doesnt.

No one RB'D postie; postie is lying.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Meseeks

Davsto's scum.

Deal with it during the night; dont derail the wagon.

[Ircher]

Postie is confscum @RC
Let me confirm it over the night.

[Ircher]

@RC
If you are nk'd, that will just confirm you. Postie is conf scum. Lets not derail pls.

[Ircher]

Fibe:

Sheeping RC -- If this is a ML, Im blaming RC
VOTE: Nee

[Ircher]

See Dwe comment.

No, I meant cinfirm Mee.

[Ircher]

is not lynching postie or ircher for more gunsmiths results logical?

Yes it is.
We lynch Postie tomorrow.

[Ircher]

I trust RC's reads generally.

[Ircher]

Who then?

[Ircher]

Who then?

look right now rc is hard push, strongarming a lynch off someone you know is confscum

how are all the alarm bells in your head not going "HOLY FUCKING SHIT" right now

f1) Its rc
2) RC claimed backup cop.

[Ircher]

@RC
Aside FFrom Postie or me, whod you choose after Mee?

[Ircher]

tbh i dont think rc is scum i think hes just being a total fucking moron right now

but the fact taht ircher is going along with a lynch on anyone but the player that he should know is confscum is the stupidest fucking play ive ever seen in a mafia game, and ive played with kaintepes for chrissakes

Stob lobbing insults

[Ircher]

tbh i dont think rc is scum i think hes just being a total fucking moron right now

but the fact taht ircher is going along with a lynch on anyone but the player that he should know is confscum is the stupidest fucking play ive ever seen in a mafia game, and ive played with kaintepes for chrissakes

Stob lobbing insults

oh im sorry for thinking that lynching outside of FUCKING CONFSCUM is stupid

It realky isnt wheb there is 3 scum alivr.

@RC
Townreads?

[Ircher]

See Dwlee earlier comment. The real gunsmith can euther get more results or get the liar conf as scum over the night. No one should jk or rb either of us.

[Ircher]

I agree with all the points RC raised against Mee btw.

[Ircher]

Its win win for town. Rc recognized it first then Dwlee mentioned it sarcasticmally, but its a goid line of action.

[Ircher]

An extra resukt or scum just confirming which one is faking is win win.

[Ircher]

Im wording it neutrally. I know Postie is confscum.

[Ircher]

Yes.

Gunsmith can either clear or guilty someone else or scum can kill the real one & tell town who to lynch next.

[Ircher]

Lynching Postie or me is lose-lose as the real one cant get another investigation in.

[Ircher]

Yes.

Gunsmith can either clear or guilty someone else or scum can kill the real one & tell town who to lynch next.

Lynching Postie or me is lose-lose as the real one cant get another investigation in.

[Ircher]

And, why would scum from my pov kill Postie?

[Ircher]

youre just flailing.

[Ircher]

scum nking me still benefits town

[Ircher]

I could lynch Murder probably

[Ircher]

@RC
Is Murder an acceptable lynch?

[Ircher]

Im suggesting an alternative. Are you diesatisfied eith that?

[Ircher]

Theres 3 scum. Lynching Postie confirms me and withiut dic, I cant get another investigation in.

[Ircher]

Ive no suggestions for a lynch aside from me, postie, AND mee.

Speak now, or forever hold your peace

[Ircher]

Fine.....
VOTE: Postie

You do know who I am investugating.....

[Ircher]

RC doesnt support this lynch, so we need someone else to also votr

[Ircher]

Fyi: RC was the one to derail it. I thought the reasoning made sense, but none of you guys agree.

[Ircher]

Fyi: RC was the one to derail it.

Yeah that'd be why RC is getting lynched after you.

I thought the reasoning made sense, but none of you guys agree.

Who gives a shit if the reasoning made sense? Is it a better reason than KNOWING FOR A FACT THAT POSTIE IS SCUM?

It seemed so and still does. Postie & I are only liabilities during LyLo or MyLo.

[Ircher]

I honestly cant see why you cant understand.

[Ircher]

I never said I didnt. But, possibly gaining an extra investigation imo is a worthwhile risk for towm not to lynch Postie right now and lynch someone else by concensus.

[Ircher]

Can you not read? What's the risk of not lynching Postie or me today?

Pedit: Yes - 1 town and 1 mafia

[Ircher]

Let me put it this way:

As scum, I have little reason to directly cc Postie. If I did, then I basically outed myself for an even trade. Gunsmith is not super powerful cuz it can get all sorts of false results.

[Ircher]

That ^ (Mee Post) is a decent response. No one has brought those points up at all, so I havent really considered them, esp. associative tells.

Rather than insist I'm stupid and/or scum, Mee explains the flaws in the thought.

[Ircher]

Your right -- I ought to suspect RC more.

Tbh, town sounds weak in this setup. Someone recap pls.

@Jar
Just stop with the bias.

[Ircher]

That was before RC's suggestions.

[Ircher]

Opinions can change you know. Postie isn't any less conf scum, but the order can change.

[Ircher]

@Jar
Why are you tunneling?

[Ircher]

Uh, cuz you've done it since daystart.

I could see a Postie/Jar/RC team now. Could explain the townread RC has on Jar.

[Ircher]

This isn't even a meta read though.

This is about YOU immediately assuming that Postie was jailkept to the extent that I thought you were softing a claim, you hard defending her, you pushing a lynch on Ircher based on a ridiculous Ircher/RC scumteam possibility, you knowing that the Kush thing was a vig kill in conjunction with the former which implies that you think that either Postie was killed or tried to kill, all of the above.

Yes, there's some really shitty comments that you made that look exactly like similar ones you made in paint. but don't call this a shitty meta read when you slipped all over the fucking thread.

@RC
Townreads?

Acryon, jarjar, I townread most of the PR claims.

*you know is scum

We get an extra gunsmith result.

[Ircher]

Uh, cuz you've done it since daystart.

I could see a Postie/Jar/RC team now. Could explain the townread RC has on Jar.

This just has to be scum.

How?

[Ircher]

Your right -- I ought to suspect RC more.

Tbh, town sounds weak in this setup. Someone recap pls.

@Jar
Just stop with the bias.

im gonna assume all people are telling the truth for the sake of this


gunsmith is town investigative
vig, likely 1-shot (false positive too)
town joat with a commute and jail and ?
backup cop (purely false positive)

that doesnt sound that weak to me. presuming that scum has a roleblocker rather than a doc, the vig has a decent chance of hitting scum. the joats three abilities are clearly set up to use the first and claim it the following day, commute to absorb the nightkill and then use the other ability on n3, making it pretty powerful for a joat. sure, there are two false positives, but right now im doubting that one of them is town so hey-ho.

scum probably doesnt have anything too powerful. probably just an rb, although if postie is scum they have a doc to have been able to fakeclaim gs and that

does

sound unbalanced because that gives scum both a high-probability way to avoid the vig actually hitting scum as well as an effective godfather

Thats not balanced in the slightest.

Gunsmith gets false positives on 3 town prs (joat, backup cop, vig)
Vigilante is pure negative utility.
Joat likely is Jail, Commute, Vig/Investigate. That's good for catching one scum.

And, this is against (from my pov):
Mafia Gunsmith
2x Mafia Goon

Suppose the Gunsmiths trade. That's still 11:2.
Vig misfires: 10:2.
Joat is confirmed town but gets nk'd first opp. Only clears one person.

This isn't balanced; town has an EV ~36% in 11:2 Mountainous. This setup's average case is only slightly better than such. Worst case is a horror for town.

[Ircher]

You sheep RC onto Meeseeks, say you want to lynch me and now scum team is RC/JJD/Postie??

Are you telling me reads should be static?

[Ircher]

If scum have a roleblocker instead of Doctor then I really don't see scum Postie claiming gunsmith.

eh I feel like full claiming. My third ability is a roleblock. How does this affect the chances of scum having a roleblocker?

So maybe scum do have doctor

Theres a reason godfather is blacklisted from normal games.....

[Ircher]

Let's assume the following setup that has been suggested:

Town JOAT (Commute, Jail, RB)
Town Gunsmith
Town 1-Shot Vig
Town Backup Cop
Mafia Gunsmith
Mafia Doctor

There's no way from my pov that scum got the idea to fakeclaim gunsmith which is why mafia has a gunsmith.

The Vig is negative utility: 75% chance of hitting town.
The JOAT is very weak. Jailing gives false positive and is the only protective role in this setup.
Mafia & Town Gunsmith are an evem trade.
Backup Cop is a named townie that results in false positives.
Mafia Doctor is a

freaking godfather

that give false negatives.

There's definitely a gunsmith and I can believe Dwlee's JOAT claim. There is no freaking way mafia has a doctor.

Occam's Razor:

Mafia NK'd Kush. Postie lied and is mafia and have a mafia gunsmith on their team. RC may or may not be a backup cop. There is no vig. Dwlee is a JOAT with the given abilities. Mafia only have the gunsmith. Town has some other pr that isnt a vig.

[Ircher]

Ps: I CC first opportunity I got.

Also, Davsto, you just played a game with me. A lot of the stuff I've done should really be null for you for meta reasons.

[Ircher]

the thing is ircher is speccing that mafia has no doc

Ans that's literally the point I was suggesting when I was speccing

Scum has roleblocker because that is p. Much the only way to explain posties no result and hey ho look suddenly the thing looks a lot more balanced don't you think

Gunsmith does not freaking balance this setup period. The joat is overall weak and the vig is neg. utility. Scum dont need a RB.

[Ircher]

How is Mafia gunsmith odd?
How is that odd?

How is that anything outside of the ordinary?

Because in my mind it's largely an alignment investigative

So it seems kinda weird

I thought I'd check for 100% clarity because I couldn't remember if it was or not

The false guilties are good for pr hunting. And its a useful cc to a real one.

[Ircher]

How did ircher know RC had a gun/was a backup cop then at the same time u were RB'd/JK'd?

As mafia, I'd be better off claiming no result and pretending RC was ascetic.

Furthermore, I would've just tried to get town!RC lynched for the guilty rather than consider false positives.

Scum can and will do anything, but always consider occams razor.

[Ircher]

It's not logical because Postie is lying here.

Why Postie and not Ircher? Here's the reason you gave:

Ircher has no motive to directly counterclaim Postie, especially if scum already have a roleblocker.

This:

VC 2.01

acryon (1):

Expedience

Ircher (3):

Maxous, I Am Innocent, RadiantCowbells

Postie (1): Ircher

RadiantCowbells (2):

Dwlee99, Mr Meeseeks

Not Voting (4):

acryon, MURDERCAT, Postie, JarJarDrinks

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2016-05-15 00:00:00)

isn't a good motive?

Ircher looked like the next lynch. Then he claimed.

How many times do I have to tell you I was sleeping then?

[Ircher]

ircher buddying RC is ridiculous.

like, how do you buddy somebody you have a guilty result on?
he's claiming a miller-role but still how do you 100% sheep somebody

claiming miller

after you got a guilty result??

and the best part is...this is making ircher's result useless apparently.

tell you what:

@ircher

: why do you town-read RC so much that you're willing to trust his push on meeseeks?
didn't you say he was difficult to read which is why you investigated him in the first place?

I dont know......

[Ircher]

Whats the case again? Anyone who metas me fyi SHOULD figure that most of the "scummy" stuff I've done is actually null for me.

Oh, and statistically, I am town 100% of the time. That's given 10 games though.

[Ircher]

No one hammer; I want to do something before I die.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1785 - Postie ISO

1. 1295 is where Postie claimed gunsmith. From what I read, that was about 3 hrs before deadline.

2. 1321 - "Bad logic is not a scumtell" -

Is this not what I'm getting scumread for? For Postie, her perspective only allows one possible outcome. Same for me. But, if this wagon is cuz of my earlier sheep of RC on poor/not thought out logic, then this wagon on me has no basis.

3. 1368 then much later, 1583 -

It seems to me that Postie just stayed around while her wagon was going, and when the wagon died, lurked again.

4. 1634 - Claims to check RC and was RB'd or jailed.

5. 1893 - Insists there was a vig and insists she was jailkept. -

Who claimed vig, if anyone? Did you indeed shoot Kush? If so, why didn't you claim immediately (unless my memory is wrong). I still think that scum gunsmith Postie makes more sense than Town Gunsmith Postie who was targeted by scum to be killed and stopped and a vig shot Kush. Indeed, the JOAT claim from Dwlee seems to me the most believable claim, and he didn't target Postie. Gunsmith+Joat+Vig+Backup Cop versus Mafia Gunsmith is heavily scumsided. I am thinking town has a more useful role than vig. I'm also starting to think the backup cop claim makes no sense from a balancing standpoint.

The way Postie is going about things reads as contrived and convenient to me.

[Ircher]

I dont think both IAI and RC are scum. But, I'm confident at least one is scum in order to bakance the setup.

The setup as it is heavily favors scum imo.

[Ircher]

You were using it to buy time...... By not being the lynch.

[Ircher]

Uggh... Why must one suffer like so.

If I'm being lynched, do so. If not, then go lynch Postie. But, delaying just to delay is counterproductive and just makes people apathetic.

[Ircher]

Uggh... Why must one suffer like so.

If I'm being lynched, do so. If not, then go lynch Postie. But, delaying just to delay is counterproductive and just makes people apathetic.

Speak now or I'm self-hammering:

It's clear that the majority want my lynch, so unless someone has a compelling defensive case for me... I don't unfortunately, I'm self-hammering so this game stops stalling and everyone doesn't become bored. You have ten minutes.

[Ircher]

Don't self hammer.

UNVOTE:

Any particular reason?
lIs it cuz you dont like self-hammers or what?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher
Someone hammer

[Ircher]

Am I scum or am I town?

Please decide now

There is no reason to delay the inevitable and if I'm gonna die, I'd rather die sooner than later

[Ircher]

Convince town that. I know I'm town, Postie is scum, and I got a gunsmith guilty on RC.

The points, while ridiculous, are supported objectively and I've already given my argument.

Pedit: Thanks RC

[Ircher]

Yeah, cuz I cant convince you that. RC did me a favor.

I just cant tell if this is scum or town RC.

[Ircher]

You as in town.....

Pedit: RC claimed backup cop

[Ircher]

Yeah, knowing that RC is manipulative, that realky isnt bad action to take regardless of RC's alignment.

[Ircher]

Town win?!!!!

[Ircher]

[Ircher]

^^^^^¥

I want to hear RCs explanation for the gunsmith fakeclaim!