Mini Normal 1827 - No Flavor Mafia (Game Over)

[xyzzy]

VOTE: Creature

I picked a number in my head at random to choose this vote. I picked 8.

[xyzzy]

it's okay. Liam Neeson has done better.

[xyzzy]

Killthestory, of the players who haven't posted yet, which is the scummiest? thanks

[xyzzy]

I'm just an eager beaver! I'm first on the list because I was the first one to sign up for the game, and I refreshed the thread like 20 times today waiting for it to unlock.

the fact that the scum have daytalk is interesting. it implies a higher than average power level among the town, or a lower than average power level among the scum.

[xyzzy]

Why?

I have a day guilty on him...

can you confirm that you're being serious about this statement? BlackStar, what's your thoughts?

I don't like how Jordarrian responded to that wagon, but I'm definitely not putting someone at L-2 on page 4 because that would be irresponsible

[xyzzy]

putting someone that close to dead when we're like 8(?) hours in is irresponsible because, like, what if someone comes in and says "hey haven't read the thread yet but here's my vote" and hammers him out of nowhere? like, they would immediately become suspicious, but it'd be the sort of thing that would still be possible to play off as a mistake.

he freaked out a lot at a relatively quick wagon, more than is reasonable for a wagon out of nowhere day 1. I dislike that reaction.

[xyzzy]

care to offer anything else, pistachi0n?

[xyzzy]

regardless xyzzy should be a contender of rope

and why is that? you've yet to meaningfully substantiate what about my play so far you dislike.

[xyzzy]

Apparently I can't go to sleep after making 4 posts without being accused of being lazy and doing nothing.

The fact Io hasn't voted anyone isn't scummy.

VOTE: Io happy?
I couldn't really care much less about RVS. I participate if someone actually looks overtly scummy, but most times I just don't care to do it.

I'll try to go back and comment more on the preceding several pages that happened since I last got to the thread later (I just woke up and I'm doing things today, won't really have time to write anything substantial until later), but this post is A Bad Post®

[xyzzy]

Alright hello guys! This is technically my first game because both my newbie games I replaced out. Killthestory knows me on another forum which I prefer to play mafia from, but I think we only played 1 game with each other.

If you guys would like links to see my games from there then let me know

VOTE: Jordarrian

Yo Transcend wagon this w/ me

this post right here makes me very suspicious regarding Transcend's wagon habits

[xyzzy]

don't see much town motivation from her

you keep pushing the idea that I'm scum with really vague reasoning, but you're doing it in such a way that it's basically impossible for me to meaningfully respond to anything you say bring just saying "uh I disagree"

I don't like Killthestory's post 303.

[xyzzy]

my issue is that his complaints don't offer any way to interact with them. I'm not saying that I don't understand his arguments, I'm saying that his arguments are constructed in such a way that trying to counter them in any way is futile because of how subjective they are. things like asking questions and referring to specific statements show a good faith effort to make sure that if I'm not scum that I have a chance to show it, and I feel like Transcend is going out of his way to make that impossible for me.

[xyzzy]

here's some notes from the first 4 pages. not sure whether I'll get through all of these tonight, or if I'll have to wait until tomorrow for some of them, but here's the first chunk anyway.

5 (Creature): an RVS OMGUS. probably irrelevant but I'm noting it just in case it feels relevant later.
6 (Killthestory): I get a slight town read from this post; I feel like these sorts of things involving making really broad, unlikely statements like this immediately come from town.
19 (Killthestory): I don't think this post would come from scum.
20 (BlackStar): these kinds of things where someone doesn't notice some aspect of the setup mentioned in the rules that is only directly relevant to scum generally feels town.
24 (Transcend): I'm generally not a huge fan of it when someone RVS votes when there's already discussion going, but I think overall it's a null tell on its own. if it's combined with very little other content later on, though, that's bad.
28 (Jordarrian): this is a good response to Creature's post 27.
29 (Killthestory): I'm okay with this post.
32-34: once any of Transcend, BlackStar, Creature or Jordarrian are dead, these 3 posts will be worth thinking about in more detail.
36 (Killthestory): I didn't read Jordarrian's response as defensive, and it's weird that you did.
48 (Naomi-Tan): Naomi-Tan, you imply that you make posts like this in a lot of games; would you mind linking to some examples from other games that you've played (both as town and scum)?
50 (Naomi-Tan): this post feels like it comes from town.
55 (Naomi-Tan): I definitely feel the same way as you describe in the first paragraph here a lot; I usually have much stronger town reads than scum reads.
56 (light_ganski): again, same. basically I tend to start questioning myself really hard starting around day 2
57 (Creature): I don't really like this post very much; Naomi-Tan's post wasn't as bad as Creature seems to imply no matter what you thought of it imo
60 (Vedith): remember what I said earlier about RVS votes when discussion has already started? same thing.
61 (light_ganski): I feel like trying to derail the conversation by making something mundane like acknowledging the fact that scum have daytalk is something scum could plausibly do.
62 (Vedith): nope.
65 (Vedith): not a fan of this.
67 (Vedith): another post I dislike from Vedith!
76 (Killthestory): I have a bad habit of interpreting these sorts of posts as scummy even though they're usually not.
81 (Io): in general I feel like trying to figure out the structure of the game at this point in time is really fruitless beyond just broad statements like "town's probably strong", so trying to figure out what's common doesn't seem like a good plan. also, the P-edit at the bottom is good.
86 (Transcend): I feel like all of Transcend's posts that I've commented on were things where I was like "that's a bit scummy" but I'd not really paid attention to the fact that all of them come from the same person. this is bad.
88 (Transcend): also in what sense does Naomi-Tan seem like a gimmick account? what gimmick does she have?
96 (BlackStar): this is an okay post.

overall I'm most likely to switch my vote over to Transcend at this point, but I'll re-read and comment in detail on the remaining 12 pages before I do anything.

[xyzzy]

what's fake?

[xyzzy]

381

yeah I felt like it was pretty obvious you were referring to the post I'd just made. which part of that post? are you saying you think literally 100% of it is fake?

[xyzzy]

feel free to read either of the mini normals I have been in this year that have ended (1786, 1787)--I was town in both of those games, and I made multiple posts with that format throughout both games. I tend to go back and carefully re-read after some time has passed and take notes. the assertion that I wouldn't do that as town just doesn't hold water.

[xyzzy]

btw Transcend one of the bits in that post is a direct question to you about a post you made, so, uh

feel free to respond to that

[xyzzy]

just for you, here's some links to some posts of mine from mini normal 1787 that demonstrate that posting that sort of analysis is consistent with my play style since returning to the site:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7865422
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7867428
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7871087
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7875887
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7885478

it turns out my memory was mistaken and I didn't ever do any of those in 1786, but regardless, here's a bunch of posts that specifically demonstrate that that's a thing I do. you don't even need to read them--just scroll through them and confirm that I have, in fact, made posts like that one in games where I was town.

[xyzzy]

because other people might read your posts and be swayed by your bad reasoning.

anyway have you bothered reading that post yet? do you actually intend to actively participate in this game or are you just going to passively pretend to be involved while throwing meaningless suspicion at me?

[xyzzy]

pages 5-8:

104 (pistachi0n): this isn't a good post. by page 4 you should have something to say about your vote for sure.
108 (Transcend): I also get a bit of a bad vibe from Creature.
110 (Transcend): I really don't like this post at all.
112 (Transcend): this is a terrible post for so many reasons, including the fact that, if you genuinely believe 2 people are masons, saying so on day 1 is basically just super unhelpful. why point out that possibility to scum if instead you can just quietly note it in case it becomes useful later?
122 (Transcend): Transcend, would you be willing to comment on what made you make this post?
124 (Transcend: I've already said this, but I don't like the way Transcend sets up looking at me as scum; the only valid response to this is "I disagree" because it's completely subjective.
127 (Naomi-Tan): I agree with this; if you condense your scum reads to 3 people and say "okay these people are scum" it's way too easy to ignore everyone else.
128 (Killthestory): what's TvT stand for?
135 (Transcend): why did you feel the need to make this post? it feels annoying and unhelpful.
140 (light_ganski): it's interesting that light_ganski went from reading Naomi-Tan as null-scum to town from post 107 to 140. this post is okay.
142 (Transcend): this is an okay post.
143 (Creature): I'm not a fan of this post and I disagree.
152 (Naomi-Tan): I think gut reads are absolutely fine as long as you make it clear that that's what they are.
156 (Creature): I don't like this post.
158 (Creature): another Creature post that I dislike.
161 (BlackStar): you're one to talk.
163 (BlackStar): not voting for someone early on is a null tell most of the time.
164 (Creature): looking back at post 81, I agree with this.
165 (Transcend): this is a pretty reasonable reads list. I obviously disagree with the assertion that you've explained your suspicion toward me to any reasonable extent, but most of the others feel okay.
168 (Naomi-Tan): a moderately filler-y post about a pretty filler-y post.
180 (Creature): this is a thing Creature has said that I agree with.
182 (Io): this is a really bad post
184 (Vedith): not a huge fan of this post.
185 (Vedith): y'know, you've still not actually clarified whether you were serious or not. 186 points toward you being serious, but you've not explicitly answered that question.
188 (Io): this defense of post 81 from Io seems... reasonable.
189 (Vedith): Vedith continues to make unclear posts that do not significantly contribute to the game.
197 (Creature): this is a valid point.
199 (Transcend): more Transcend role fishing.

rest is coming later because it's 3:17 am

[xyzzy]

is rolefishing a neighborhood scummy? like they can be either alignment so...?

I've not actually ever played a game with neighborhoods before (I'm pretty sure, anyway? I don't think they were even a thing 8 years ago), and in retrospect, you're right that that's generally a null tell.

pages 5-8:

104 (pistachi0n): this isn't a good post. by page 4 you should have something to say about your vote for sure.
108 (Transcend): I also get a bit of a bad vibe from Creature.
110 (Transcend): I really don't like this post at all.
112 (Transcend): this is a terrible post for so many reasons, including the fact that, if you genuinely believe 2 people are masons, saying so on day 1 is basically just super unhelpful. why point out that possibility to scum if instead you can just quietly note it in case it becomes useful later?
122 (Transcend): Transcend, would you be willing to comment on what made you make this post?
124 (Transcend: I've already said this, but I don't like the way Transcend sets up looking at me as scum; the only valid response to this is "I disagree" because it's completely subjective.
127 (Naomi-Tan): I agree with this; if you condense your scum reads to 3 people and say "okay these people are scum" it's way too easy to ignore everyone else.
128 (Killthestory): what's TvT stand for?
135 (Transcend): why did you feel the need to make this post? it feels annoying and unhelpful.
140 (light_ganski): it's interesting that light_ganski went from reading Naomi-Tan as null-scum to town from post 107 to 140. this post is okay.
142 (Transcend): this is an okay post.
143 (Creature): I'm not a fan of this post and I disagree.
152 (Naomi-Tan): I think gut reads are absolutely fine as long as you make it clear that that's what they are.
156 (Creature): I don't like this post.
158 (Creature): another Creature post that I dislike.
161 (BlackStar): you're one to talk.
163 (BlackStar): not voting for someone early on is a null tell most of the time.
164 (Creature): looking back at post 81, I agree with this.
165 (Transcend): this is a pretty reasonable reads list. I obviously disagree with the assertion that you've explained your suspicion toward me to any reasonable extent, but most of the others feel okay.
168 (Naomi-Tan): a moderately filler-y post about a pretty filler-y post.
180 (Creature): this is a thing Creature has said that I agree with.
182 (Io): this is a really bad post
184 (Vedith): not a huge fan of this post.
185 (Vedith): y'know, you've still not actually clarified whether you were serious or not. 186 points toward you being serious, but you've not explicitly answered that question.
188 (Io): this defense of post 81 from Io seems... reasonable.
189 (Vedith): Vedith continues to make unclear posts that do not significantly contribute to the game.
197 (Creature): this is a valid point.
199 (Transcend): more Transcend role fishing.

rest is coming later because it's 3:17 am

Why is it that most of your commentary, xyzzy, is stuff like "bad post," "OK post," etc. Giving nothing but baseline good or bad, and then you only go into depth with Transcend's posts. I understand he's your top scum read, but like if you're going to go post by post saying waht you think you could at least give the same level of thought to all the posts you are looking at. Especially since you are analyzing about a forth or fifth of all post which would be around 80-110 posts when you are done.

I have some posts where I don't have a lot to say and just say "this is good" or "this is bad" for basically everyone including Transcend, and a reasonable number of posts with more to say as well for a wide variety of people; it's true that I focus more on Transcend, but Transcend is one of the people who's posted the most, so obviously he's going to have more posts that I have things to say about them most people, and Creature, the only person with more posts, has a lot of really filler-y posts.

Five pages in, and, so, xyzzy's scum.

putting someone that close to dead when we're like 8(?) hours in is irresponsible because, like, what if someone comes in and says "hey haven't read the thread yet but here's my vote" and hammers him out of nowhere? like, they would immediately become suspicious, but it'd be the sort of thing that would still be possible to play off as a mistake.

Completely disregards the chance Jordarrian's scum, which probably means xyzzy know's he's town.

not putting someone at L-2 that early isn't an indication that I'm ignoring the possibility that that person is scum. I'm not going to put someone that close to a lynch that early in the game because that would be a really big misplay.

xyzzy, you have posts you dislike from a bunch of people, did you decide which of them is scum?

I'm planning on posting a reads list once I get caught up with my reread.

Naomi-Tan, the post #s are visible at the top of each post, so you don't need to open each link on my reread posts; I provide them so you can easily look at any individual post, but you can just scroll through the thread like normal and check the numbers.

[xyzzy]

you don't need to click each link, though; for my first post like that, for instance, you just need to view the first 4 pages of the thread.



do you see where it says "Post #453" there? you can just follow along with the numbers by having one window with my post and one with the thread, and then you don't need to open a bunch of pages.

[xyzzy]

right, but, like, let's look at how I formatted post 381—I reference posts 5, 6, 19, 20 and 24, which all appear on page 1. even though it's 5 links, you just have to open the first page of the thread, and then you can just check the numbers. there's no need to open all 5 links, because the first page of the thread has all 5 of those posts. for my most recent post like that, those 28 links are spread over 4 pages, so you don't need to open all 28 of them; you just have to open pages 5 though 8.

Transcend, go to the board preferences page in the user control panel and look at the option labeled "my board style" and you can pick one of the options there.

[xyzzy]

my apologies for going a couple days without saying anything; I've been busier than usual the last couple days with real life things (yesterday my girlfriend and I spent what felt like 2 hours deliberating over whether to buy a plush Pokeball or a plush Shadow the Hedgehog at a Toys'R'Us, so needless to say, the things I've been busy with have been Very Important Business)

I have a very long response to Naomi-Tan's post 510 below, and I have it in its own section, with lots of hyphens.

the whole Vedith/BlackStar thing is absurd and is making both of them look scummy. that said, it's making Vedith look more scummy. I could see it being a bussing situation, though.

-------------------------

here's some responses to Naomi-Tan's post 510 (which contain responses to my post 381 and post 402):

19: even though it's a fairly obvious point, I doubt scum would directly acknowledge an idea like this that can only benefit the town. if any member of the town hadn't already come to this conclusion and Killthestory is scum, then this post is Killthestory saying "hey, by the way, here's a thing I might do that you should pay attention to," and that seems unlikely.
27/28: Creature's post 27 seems like it's trying to set Jordarrian up to make a mistake if he's scum; Jordarrian completely avoids taking the bait, which isn't an extremely strong town tell, but it's definitely not a scum tell.
32-34: because the Jordarrian wagon came out of nowhere, once any of those 4 people are dead, it'll be a little bit more feasible to infer information about possible connections between them. I feel like most likely at most 1 person on that wagon is scum, so if Jordarrian dies, looking at how those 3 people all interacted with him will be a decent source of information.
50: post 50 is definitely not a strong tell, but in general, I feel like pointing out information that is theoretically obvious but that could still be used to mislead the town is a slight town tell.
67: it just doesn't feel legitimate to me. I don't have a strong reason for believing this, but it doesn't feel like a pro-town action.
76: I tend to not be a huge fan of meaningless tautological statements, but despite my misgivings toward them, I've found that they're not really a scum tell.

122: I don't think trying to work out that info is unusual, but I think the manner in which Transcend responds to that question could provide info.
135: correcting other players' typos feels like an attempt to subtly make someone look like less of an important contributor to the game without actually meaningfully saying anything about their arguments.
142: the "can you guess why" part is the part I like.
152: that's fair. while sharing gut reads is an acceptable thing to do imo, not sharing them is just fine too, and I think your reasons for doing so are valid.
161: just so it's clear, my longer posts generally involve a lot of ISO-checking.
184: "they're annoying" isn't a valid reason to lynch someone (it's entirely possible for a town player to be annoying or for a scum player to be the most charming person in the game), and agreeing with that statement without adding anything to it at all doesn't feel good to me.

5: as I said, it's probably completely irrelevant, but it has the potential to feel noteworthy later on.
6: even though this is a non-serious post, I feel like in general town is a little more likely to make that kind of post, even if it's 100% a joke.
20: I don't feel like finding post 19 and post 20 both slightly town-leaning contradictory, but I see where you're coming from.
24: I think it's reasonable to expect people to say something about whatever's going on in the game if possible. as I said, I think on its own it's a null tell, but if someone has a lot of posts where they're just saying things without really contributing to any ongoing conversation, that's not great.
29: I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at here.
61: I screwed up my own grammar here--basically, what I meant was that someone could (incorrectly) decide that light_ganski's post 25 was scummy, and the fact that you pointed out that it isn't is fine. I had no issues with post 25.
86: this is something that I noted around that point during this re-read, although I guess pointing it out at post 86 wasn't super clear.

123/124: I don't feel like quoting three posts and simply saying "these don't sound genuine" without any additional commentary is a substantial reason to focus on someone as scummy; I still don't have a strong sense of

why

Transcend finds those posts non-genuine, just that he does.
277: this was in response to BlackStar's comment in 276 about Transcend frequently wagon hopping. the fact that Killthestory suggested that Transcend get on a wagon and then he immediately did just seems interesting to me.

88: I'm not sure what you mean by this. as far as I can tell, Transcend is implying that you're a gimmick account here.
158: I can't recall now why I marked this as a post I dislike, and since I'm thinking about it now, I don't really feel like it's bad anymore.
164: Creature's post 164 changed my mind about Io's post 81. I guess I should've made that more clear.
197: I don't understand what you mean by this.
199: yeah, as I said to Transcend, this is some bad reasoning based on a misinterpretation on my part of how neighborhoods work.

-----------------------
I figured out from context that TvT probably means "town vs town"! I'm so proud of myself for figuring that out even though it's not on the abbreviations page. anyway, I'm going to give some thought to the possibiity that that's what's going on with me and Transcend, because it wouldn't be the first time that me and another town player with very different playstyles mutually tunnel each other, so even though I find Transcend scummy, I don't want to ignore the possibility that that's because of my own cognitive biases.

I mostly like Naomi-Tan's reads list in post 518; I think the fact that she goes into some detail for each person about how her reads have evolved is a good thing. that said, pointing out that you dislike someone's attitude and that it doesn't seem very nice while voting for that person kind of feels like you're just tacking on another reason to vote them that isn't actually relevant to their alignment. you also seem to imply that a lot of your reads are close to null, which isn't necessarily great.

I really dislike the fact that Transcend is pretty much openly choosing not to engage with certain portions of the game. Vedith seems to kind of be doing the same with post 523.

I'm planning on doing more re-read posts, and I'll try to format them in such a way that it's easier to go through them. I tend to have an easier time processing information about the game if it's been a few days since I first read it, which is largely why I've used that format.

[xyzzy]

before it ever even started I was confident that joining Dunnstral's first modded game was the first choice and now I'm even more sure

so much has happened in the like couple days I've been away (I spent a lot of time sleeping...) and I'll need time to really process it all, but while I'm pretty sure it's possible it's possible for BlackStar to be scum (the normal rules allow for one non-normal role; they don't say anything about how non-normal that role can be) I don't really see it as likely.

Naomi-Tan, do you not think it's possible light_ganski was bussing one of Vedith or Creature?

I'm not seeing why the Seraphim wagon is happening at all. maybe that'll become clearer to me when I get the chance to reread the last several pages at a time that isn't 4 am.

[xyzzy]

before it ever even started I was confident that joining Dunnstral's first modded game was the first choice and now I'm even more sure

so much has happened in the like couple days I've been away (I spent a lot of time sleeping...) and I'll need time to really process it all, but while I'm pretty sure it's possible it's possible for BlackStar to be scum (the normal rules allow for one non-normal role; they don't say anything about how non-normal that role can be) I don't really see it as likely.

Naomi-Tan, do you not think it's possible light_ganski was bussing one of Vedith or Creature?

I'm not seeing why the Seraphim wagon is happening at all. maybe that'll become clearer to me when I get the chance to reread the last several pages at a time that isn't 4 am.

Jordan's response to a fake guilty on him was that he read the thread. His reply indicated it was fully possible to get a guilty on him. He's also in Light's scumpool which likely has at least one scum. (Vedith, creature, BlackStar). The first two are obvious town. The latter is scum you won't lynch. By PoE that leaves Jordan.

that first point is fair; I had interpreted the response to the fake guilty very differently, but the logic that Jordarrian's response assumes the possibility that he's scum seems valid to me. the second point is completely valid too and I think I just missed that point earlier. this seems like the most valid wagon at the moment.

VOTE: Seraphim

[xyzzy]

Seraphim really didn't seem to have much problem with me until my vote; his vote feels OMGUSesque.

[xyzzy]

I'm really bad at knowing how to defend myself as town when I'm a lynch target, and I've been too busy the last several days to make any really substantive contributions to the game, and while I obviously have a decent number of other people I'm scumreading (Transcend, Creature and Vedith stand out as reasonable options to me), I doubt any of them are likely to gain traction in the next 3.5 days.

would it help anyone if I roleclaimed? I figure that's probably the sensible thing to do right now, but I'd rather wait until someone specifically indicates that they'd like a claim.

I don't think a BlackStar lynch makes sense until like day 3 at least; if he's still alive then and people think he's scummy, it might make sense, but it doesn't make sense to waste a lynch on someone who has a high likelihood of being nightkilled if they're town.

[xyzzy]

I'm a townie, so I suppose standard "at worst we lose a townie" apply here.

[xyzzy]

V is probably town too. I'd explain why but i think it brands the rules.

VOTE: xyzzy

uh, yeah you were? you haven't included since this post, and the most recent vote count has you voting me.

[xyzzy]

*voted since

fuckin tablet auto correct

[xyzzy]

Blitzkrieg, I claimed townie, and also that's not a hammer, because Transcend was already voting me.

[xyzzy]

as I've used the terms in the past, "town" is an alignment, and "townie" is shorthand for "vanilla townie", but just to clarify: I'm a vanilla townie.

[xyzzy]

thinking about it, I feel like the fake hammer by Transcend is a pretty good town tell, because the only reasonable position I could see that coming from is from town trying to get scum-me to accidentally out myself before being hammered for real.

[xyzzy]

I don't understand why you haven't tried to defend yourself at all or push the wagon that you're on or do anything that would convince us to lynch someone else over you

as I said earlier, properly defending myself when I'm in this position is just something I'm bad at, so I've been a little deer-in-the-headlights the couple days. part of it also comes from a general belief of mine that a lynch that provides information to turn on day 1 is valuable even if it's a mislynch, which mine would accomplish, and we've already gotten one scum regardless. so I'm more focused on offering my opinions about what should happen after day 1 than keeping myself alive, because that seems more productive and beneficial to the town.

[xyzzy]

good job Dunnstral, nice modding, nice setup