Mini 2039: uPicketyPicketyPick Mafia Endgame

[RadiantCowbells]

more varsoon votes >=]

[RadiantCowbells]

not backing down from varsoon's turn on me onward. it's done.

[RadiantCowbells]

varsoon isn't IC

[RadiantCowbells]

nibbui i doubt you would have shown me a quarter as much consideration as you've shown varsoon if our places were reversed

[RadiantCowbells]

its hammer if you vote now.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

yes

[RadiantCowbells]

i played this the way I had to with varsoon doing what he was doing. i'm like I am out of necessity.

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm amazed that he actually lied about being an innocent child to try to mislynch me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I take 0 responsibility. the turning point for me was always the claim and his actions not fitting the claim. the decisions he made he deserved to die for.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't believe that he genuinely scumread my slot, the way he talked to me so many different times indicated that he townread me. I think he just wanted to lynch me to get one over on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm gonna go to bed and not think about this until the morning and hopefully nsg does something between now and then.

[RadiantCowbells]

I was objectively not the problem here Nibbui. Varsoon fake claimed IC to try to mislynch me and when everyone pointed out that his actions didn't fit his claim he stuck with trying to mislynch me.

[RadiantCowbells]

You can push a mislynch on me for some sort of stupid policy reasons but you better be 100% clear that this all came out of Varsoon's decisions. I had no way of predicting him fakeclaiming as town.

[RadiantCowbells]

*sighs deeply forever*

we would have just ended up lynching him later after his fakeclaim. at least now we know.

[RadiantCowbells]

it's stupid to pin the blame on me for the actions of another. i even said at the time that the point of his IC claim was where he became 100% scum for me.
he chose repeatedly to double down on his IC claim to try to leverage it against me at the risk of making himself lynchable rather than play honestly.
for all his moralizing about how mafia is played what he did here was absolutely disgusting.

[RadiantCowbells]

And whether or not it's true all of us scumread him because he clearly wasn't playing like it was true but he insisted it was. so, like, what do you want me to do?

[RadiantCowbells]

how else, as a town, are we supposed to resolve someone who is attempting to policy lynch another townie who they don't scumread to the point of fakeclaiming IC and sticking to it when their fakeclaim gets called into question?
this outcome was regrettable but not because we lynched varsoon, what's regrettable is the actions varsoon took that led him to be lynched.

Ah, but therein lies the rub. We dont even know this. Like RC spent all of Day 1 death tunneling town, but they were both death tunneling each other for out of game reasons while pretending they werent, and the one was fake claiming out of his ass for some reason, and what have got? 90 pages of noise propagated by the top post in our game and it's all basically NAI cuz "lol he lied and we just dont like each other"

What content do we have of RC to point to as AI? What did we *learn* today?

You can't say that I was tunneling Varsoon for out of game reasons when the actual reasons that I was so sure that he was scum were correct.

[RadiantCowbells]

I expect an apology from you after this game if you're town, Nibbui.

[RadiantCowbells]

I didn't create this situation but you're taking it out on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do what you gotta do man but I was always the victim here.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're shrugging it off too easy honestly Radiant.

If some guy who has a personal problem with me wants to try to policy lynch me and fakeclaim IC to do so I won't fault myself for doing what it takes to prevent that.

No you were evidently not correct, because he flipped town. That's kind of how that works, logically. You can argue he needed to die regardless if you want to but you dont get to say that you were right about him being scum when he flipped town.

I was correct that

his actions did not align with his claim and not for reasons that were based off of his personality, they simply did not make any fucking sense

he chose to continue to justify his actions within the narrative that he was going to be confirmed town instead of admitting that it was a fakeclaim.

[RadiantCowbells]

also one of the pair of us tried to cool things and do something else for the day phase. the other of us redoubled that conflict (obviously now because they knew they would lose all credibility pushing me when people found out they weren't IC)

If I hadn't gotten the Varsoon wagon through today and we had lynched Varsoon on D3 when he wasn't confirmed town, would you be angry at me then?

[RadiantCowbells]

From the moment Varsoon made that claim and resolved to keep it going to try to mislynch me instead of backing down on it his slot had to be lynched. all that I did was make it happen sooner rather than later.

and frankly everyone is better off for it.

[RadiantCowbells]

there's a difference between a universe where I want to lynch varsoon because he's being fucking annoying and one where I think that I have him dead to rights. I thought that I had him dead to rights.

[RadiantCowbells]

I respect my assertions that someone is always scum more than to do this off of policy. I can't play around what Varsoon did. I had the right to scumread him.

Whatever, I'm done. Vote me if it does something for you.

[RadiantCowbells]

I said that there was a transition from not trying to obvtown to trying to obvtown

You have literally no idea what my scum game would or would not look like

I would suggest not making assumptions

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I literally said that I was gonna just eat the lunch until he turned on me again after the armistice then I decided fuck it he needs death. But if your paranoia says that you gotta scumread me then you gotta scumread me

[RadiantCowbells]

I think the way I've been singled out after the fact says enough about why I played this the way I did because if I didn't I'd always have lost any 1v1 with anyone off the back of "well x is towny and RC is too but who really knows that he is scum though?"

Your treatment of my slot backs me into a corner then you blame me for playing myself out of it

[RadiantCowbells]

I tried to give it a rest and wait for another day. Varsoon wouldn't let that happen. I solved the problem. I won't apologize for it.

[RadiantCowbells]

You even acknowledge that if I was anyone else I would not be scumread here, and that should tell you all you need to know.

I wonder how any of you would approach mafia if people consistently, after play that they would say is never scum from anyone else, scumread you anyway

[RadiantCowbells]

I rarely even tryhard as scum anymore. I have only given one scum game a true effort in the past year and I do this because when I'm actually power playing scum games the level of bs from this game gets jacked up to 11.

At this point it's pretty clear to me that there's literally nothing that I can say that will make you treat me like an actual player in this game so I just won't be one. I'll play in hoods and prodge until I get lynched. Cheers

[RadiantCowbells]

NK15 why are you not interacting with me at all? Where do you stand

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: NicoRobin

Gonna sheep Maria cuz she's cute and isn't calling me scum

[RadiantCowbells]

Not real feeling nk15 flipping scum rn

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think her push is better

As I stated I think she's cute and she's not scumreading me so

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think it wasn't, mutant?

[RadiantCowbells]

My current Poe pool is getting obscenely tight for this point in the game

Even if I remove gamma and I don't want to based on my read there

Mutant town
RC town
Let's assume nsg toen for now but we'll figure it our if she's not
Firebringer town
Elbirn town

Hard Leantown nibbui
Hard Leantown chibi

Leantown nk15
Leantown gamma (maybe wrong on 1/2 nk15 gamma but not both)

Leaving

Maria
Kokichi
NicoRobin

Literally

[RadiantCowbells]

I guess I should verify mutant because that's a very stale read but like

[RadiantCowbells]

Fmpov there's only so many potential scum

[RadiantCowbells]

If I be intellectually honest and put nsg as null there's still at most 6 slots that are worth worrying about even assuming I'm wrong on less strong reads

[RadiantCowbells]

Maybe I'm misreading a locktown but that would essentially have to be Elbirn and this ability doesn't make sense for scum so ...

[RadiantCowbells]

I think either NSG is scum or at least 2/3 of Maria Kokichi Nico are scum

[RadiantCowbells]

Then again if my role is to give permanent action immunity to scum we can probably throw all role related reads out the window so

[RadiantCowbells]

Hard Leantown nibbui

Did I perhaps drop from town to town lean because I'm scum leaning you or there is other reasons?

Not that I don't understand how it's hard to find towny someone accusing you if you're perhaps town, but I'm curious.

There's people who are more certain town than you

I dunno maybe chibi is my incorrect read I gotta dig

[RadiantCowbells]

You're missing the point that it's literally not about the quality of the push I'm sheeping Maria because she's Maria

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that if Maria is town her reads are dead on and if she's scum she's probably bussing either way

[RadiantCowbells]

But that's entirely aside from my vote.

If NSG obvtowned or Firebringer placed a good vote I might vote with them instead

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you're seeing playstyle indicative things from Nibbui like the excessive use of honesty moreso than actually scum indicative things

[RadiantCowbells]

And if Nico flips town

You can essentially mod confirm Maria and kokichi as scum

[RadiantCowbells]

Conversely if she's scum it's a huge what the fuck moment for my reads

Maria bussing Nico, sure, but Maria AND Kokichi? Not likely not with how yume is. So that would say I'm heavily flawed somehow and need to reevaluate.

[RadiantCowbells]

Plus I was a dick to Maria so I should make it up to her a bit

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't really feel like Nibbui as scum goes after me. I think he would recognize how personally upset this game has made me and avoid it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think scum are probably going to avoid pushing me here (or would if I hadn't said this)

[RadiantCowbells]

It's not understandable or good though that he only comes to push me/suspect me when I vote him.

this is not and has never been a scumtell

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm surprised on the lack of a backslash to you after Varsoon lynch to be honest. People seem to be kinda avoiding saying anything to you.

When it turns out the guy was lying about being an IC I'm surprised I got any backlash at all.

[RadiantCowbells]

So he makes a completely perfunctory vanity vote on someone who isn't scumread by anyone?

[RadiantCowbells]

the case on nk15 is that he's nk15 essentially imo

[RadiantCowbells]

i dunno maybe he's scum. i don't have a strong reason to think he's town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think it wasn't, mutant?

If it was then what you'd be trying to tell me is that the entire 1v1 was entirely based on personal issues. You're both respectable players and I'd like to think that both of you are better than that. Going by how the 1v1 started, I think this 1v1 came from more than just a distaste for each other. You scum read Varsoon and wanted to lynch him first after he provoked you. Unless you doing that was indeed personal, I don't see how this whole thing has been TvT. But since you've expressed genuine reasons to scum read Varsoon I don't think it was.

Why can't I have been wrong given that he lied about his role and that was a lot of my motivation?

[RadiantCowbells]

I dunno like if someone else was wrong about something would you assume it's never TvT, particularly when my reason to be so sure was, in fact, true.

[RadiantCowbells]

"this person clearly is not playing like 'players role' would play like because X Y Z do not align with what they claim their role was."
"wow this person did not in fact actually have 'players role' and therefore they did not play like X Y Z because they were lying."

if I had lied about my role and yall had lynched me based on my role not making sense would you have blamed Varsoon for being wrong? I kinda feel like you would have written it off as being my fault.

Kinda feels like you're just being like this because you've decided this situation is my fault because I annoyed you more even though realistically I couldn't play around Varsoon's actions.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I fakeclaimed IC to try to lynch a townie I would get so much shit but no one seems interested in assigning blame to anyone for varsoon's fakeclaim besides me.

[RadiantCowbells]

dunno maybe that's because I've been obvtown? objectively?
everyone who knows me has said i'm town with a very high degree of certainty so like why should I be getting wagoned?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think scum both 1) are willing to let town take the blame for pushing on me if it's going to happen and 2) aren't particularly interested in extending the toxicity by pushing me right now
and realistically the fact that firebringer says i'm 99.99% town should settle the issue given that although firebringer's read on me isn't perfect it's certainly better than anyone elses

[RadiantCowbells]

my ability redirects anything that targets NSG towards me or removes the ability if i'm no longer alive. you can confirm it by using a targeted action on her.

[RadiantCowbells]

she can do what she wants without fear of interruption or investigation for the remainder of the game regardless of my survival

[RadiantCowbells]

mutant if you think I'm scum because I townread you then you're saying that you don't think I'd townread you as town, no?

[RadiantCowbells]

if firebringer is scum then I'm town anyway

[RadiantCowbells]

unless you think that between 3 scum members we have 5 votes

that role never exists on scum unless it can only be used on town and even then it's sketchy as hell to give someone like me

[RadiantCowbells]

the read developed very early on in the game fwiw

[RadiantCowbells]

I didn't use the claim against Varsoon initially because initially I had no desire to escape the lynch if he flipped town. that changed when, after I gave him space, he went back on me anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

if you're going to vig me then you probably shouldn't.

[RadiantCowbells]

These two points are very cooked up and seems like he is only throwing things at the wall trying to make something stick.

i said this about varsoon 24 hours ago

[RadiantCowbells]

that said i'm not like sure nk15 is town

and my poe is tight enough that idc if he goes down

i'm just not convinced that he's scum either

[RadiantCowbells]

i think the optimal lynch is actually kokichi ftr

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: NicoRobin

Gonna sheep Maria cuz she's cute and isn't calling me scum

Wtf I am cute and not calling u scum

But your voting someone I'm eh about voting

[RadiantCowbells]

Yawn

[RadiantCowbells]

where did the nicorobin wagon go again

[RadiantCowbells]

I've been going over this a lot in the last few few hours

I think that

{RC, Chibibear, Firebringer, MutantDevle, Nibbui} are all town no matter what. the sole slot that i have any hesitancy on is nibbui.
Chibibear is because I sincerely doubt scum threatens to replace out because they don't get the lynch they want
Firebringer because of the way he interacted with not just me but also the timing of the Varsoon unvote and a couple other things would be way outside of his scum range as I've seen it
Mutantdevle dunno just kinda tonal and NSG's quickness to agree with me when I brought it up in our neighbourhood says that, regardless of her alignment, the read is probably accurate
Nibbui also don't know if his immediate approach is to go after me here. I also don't get the vibe scum in general are willing to go after me right now. So.

[RadiantCowbells]

the big 180 for me has been Elbirn. I'm going back to my original read there of disliking him tonally and there's not really any interactions with either me or the varsoon wagon that say that he has to be town.
this nicorobin lynch being blocked off thing is also extremely sketchy to me given the context and I'm wondering if his role gave scum the ability to block off certain lynches for the night so that he is responsible for NR not being lynched

also of all the people who kept like pointing out that there were problems with varsoon's play he was the one who just... wouldn't vote there. going through his iso there's so many times where he called out varsoon for different things but he always went back to nah I'm not doing this, then the "hey I am compromising" bullshit after Varsoon cancelled the peace treaty. Of the people calling me potential scum today he also did so in the most scummy way by simply calling all my content NAI and not trying to take a stance from there. I don't have any positive feelings about the way he interacted with Varsoon and his willingness to point out scumminess in his play but unwillingness to vote there strikes me as white knighting now.

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG is still in some sort of middle ground question markness. she needs to produce content.
I feel in my gut that I am going to be nightkilled regardless of whether she's scum so I'm not going to ever end up having a chance to give a read on her due to her machinations or RL circumstances, who knows, but it's kinda ugly.

Gamma I don't really have a reason to locktown but I kinda feel like scum him would be scared to try to interact with me in the way that he's been interacting with me.

NK15 maybe scum. who knows. Mutant's super townread there makes me scared to vote there since I know that I would have trouble reading there.
I don't really know if Mutant can read him either? So, like? I don't know!

[RadiantCowbells]

Maria is also in the boat of 'calling Varsoon out for scummy things but not being willing to vote there' but given that she has a policy of resisting me-led wagons that is not really taht indicative.
Kokichi Oma is a real ? I can't say that anything that I have generates a read on him? Now that I'm seeing scumteams that exist that don't include him I'm less gung ho about him being scum but I don't townread him either.
And Nicorobin has essentially done nothing and was the ideal lynch for today but either because of her role or because of elbirn's (I sincerely doubt this comes from another source) she is still alive and we're stuck looking at others

[RadiantCowbells]

gamma's, like, really hard to explain because I'm mostly townreading him for being friendly to me on a sitewide basis that seems to be because of this game mostly but if he was scum would this be a thing? but like I can't recall ever having this read so I can't actually like do anything with it. my gut says he'd be scared to be openly pockety of me as scum but then again that 180 was when Nico was under pressure and if Nico is in fact scum with a "cannot be lynched today ability" (which ftr makes her a pretty high priority lynch soon because if she does then regardless of flip it makes Elbirn a lot less likely to be scum here) then Gamma was 180ing towards me because... their unlynchable partner got voted? so blah. who would gamma be scum with even?

[RadiantCowbells]

Chibibear is because I sincerely doubt scum threatens to replace out because they don't get the lynch they want

How confident are you in this read, really?
That seems an awful reason to townread someone.
Scum can do things like this. Scum can act in such ways. This sort of behaviour does not make anyone town.

I would have seen this only once before and by a player who was so obviously a scummy 'person' that it didn't at all surprise me to see it from scum them.

[RadiantCowbells]

barring said person actually being explicitly aggressive against that person in general, this feels rather different and I'm just shrugging at it I guess

[RadiantCowbells]

elbirn also hopped onto nico initially when I backed off of varsoon then ended up voting Gamma which given gamma's play there isn't really that big of a ? mark but eh

[RadiantCowbells]

It would be far less surprising for scum to threaten to replace out failing to lynch someone who they felt was being toxic to them on an out of game basis.

[RadiantCowbells]

So where do I actually stand

{RC, Mutant, Firebringer, Nibbui, Chibi} townblock
{Gamma}
{NK15, NSG}
{Kokichi} -null-
{Elbirn, Maria}
{Nicorobin}

[RadiantCowbells]

so who am I gonna vote

Nicorobin's off limits
Neither maria nor elbirn are gonna get lynched

so I guess Kokichi just to shrink the poe pool?

[RadiantCowbells]

I kinda want to be hands off for

reasons

i think most of what I can offer this town is to put up a strong enough townblock that scum need to kill me

just don't lie to yourselves and think that maria/elbirn refusing to vote varsoon is a towntell. it's a nulltell at best for maria and a definite +equity scum for elbirn.

I like mutant's insistence that he should be seen as voting Varsoon for VCA as well. My gut says that there is at most 1 but probably no scum on that actual wagon

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm gonna actually closeread Nibbui again because if that's wrong my entire readslist is worthless and I have enough doubt that it's worth following up on

[RadiantCowbells]

being wrong on placement of scumreads is only barely relevant but if your overall poe is wrong your readslist is absolutely worthless.

[RadiantCowbells]

or in other words, having incorrect strong townreads means you lose the game
having wrong top tier scumreads but being right on the pool of people that the scum are within still wins you the game.

there's a reason I'm putting a lot more effort into my townreads than my scumreads.

[RadiantCowbells]

At least nk15 town flip tells us we can mercilessly kill all 3 of Kokichi Nico Maria and expect 2 scum flipw

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, I don't like how mutant isn't one bit suspicious of NK15. Even if he say things like that as town, won't he do the similar as scum?

I'm not suspicious of NK15 because nothing he's done has stood out to me as scummy. What you are scum reading him for is entirely his playstyle.

I can super empathize with Mutants feelings because I'm reluctant to call nk15 hard town because who really fucking knows but the reasons he's being scumread are awful.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do think 75-25 he is town in a pool of potential scum where his odds are 50/50 by default

I would not want to see his lynch ordinarily but I think his townflip makes it likely town lynches scum tomorrow

[RadiantCowbells]

Fwiw mutant your posting this game has been by far the best

[RadiantCowbells]

This is not a pocket attempt ftr

[RadiantCowbells]

PoE is insanely tight and you're in it

You're only slightly below null and in this lobby it's enough to make you near confscum

[RadiantCowbells]

Basically everyone in the Poe is currently voting nk15

[RadiantCowbells]

Dw one of us is gonna die soon

[RadiantCowbells]

It does actually exist

There's 5 locktown

2 hard town

Your odds are at worst 3/5 scum and there's one in that 5 that has lower odds of being scum (nk15) plus one that doesn't make sense with others in the Poe (Nico)

[RadiantCowbells]

Or another way of saying that

If you're actually town this is probably gonna flip scum

I should verify Nibbui tho

[RadiantCowbells]

Dw bb I know you've already submitted the kill on me

[RadiantCowbells]

Also I did give reasons on everyone being town sooo

[RadiantCowbells]

Are you saying you're vigging me?

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh you meant about nk15

We'll see won't we

[RadiantCowbells]

Hi deathproof I'm RadiantCowbells

[RadiantCowbells]

Wait that doesn't work . . .

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't even think you're scum NR right now

[RadiantCowbells]

So like if you want me to pretend I do so that I match your claims about my read on you I can pretend to scumread yoi

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm drunk it's not my fault

At any rate my dying n1 after powerlynching Varsoon makes the point pretty clear so I welcome death like an old friend

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm just super salty NSG got away with not engaging me

Oh @nr I changed my mind tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

Your mom is a darn shame bitch

[RadiantCowbells]

whoops

[RadiantCowbells]

I came for the mafia but stayed for the memes

[RadiantCowbells]

And today

[RadiantCowbells]

Those memes have run dry

[RadiantCowbells]

Do not weep for me my children

[RadiantCowbells]

It's not worth it anymore bby

I've proved myself enough times.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm tired

I carried FGs game and everyone hated me for it

Mafia doesn't reward competitiveness in the way I'd like

[RadiantCowbells]

I could try to carry this game too but everyone will hate me for it again so why bother

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean I did try to carry

I lynched a guy who clearly talked to me.lile they knew I was town

But they were actually voting me out of a grudge and lying about their claim to try to Lynch me who knew

[RadiantCowbells]

I haven't cared as scum this entire past year
.but now I also know I don't care as town

The real reason I spectate all of Northsidegal games is because it shows me what mafia would be like if people didn't fuck with me the way Varsoon fucked with me this game

[RadiantCowbells]

Mafia is about having fun and doing your best to win. Trying to explain why people are scum in a way that makes people not dislike you is clearly hard for you. I'm sorry for that

It's not me

Make me anonymous I can absolutely convince people

You think that it's not because of "being who I am" but it is. It always is. My experience anonymously versus under this name is night and day

[RadiantCowbells]

Normal people strategies of convincing people, which I am plenty good at, do not work when people don't treat you like another normal person

[RadiantCowbells]

FA wasn't an asshole when she started. She was actually super nice.
I suspect the same is true of LLD

All of us got broken down by game after game of the same old shit

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: kokichi

[RadiantCowbells]

Gg Varsoon great tunnel on me 10/10 would do again

You managed to make one of the most stacked towns in site history lose

[RadiantCowbells]

Varsoon played against wincon and attempted to grudge lynch me*. Without discussing ongoings he has a history of attempting to grudge Lynch players and personally attacking them. It's whatever. Town tried to hard to give him a chance to not game throw but he was just dead set on grudge lynching me go the point of fakeclaiming IC to get me killed. And he still couldn't Lynch me with an IC fakeclaim. Like, when you can't get me lynched after fakeclaiming IC it's even more pathetic because not only are you playing against your wincondition but you're not even a good game thrower

[RadiantCowbells]

Umm let's say yes?

[RadiantCowbells]

Your friend fakeclaimed IC to try to grudge Lynch me

I know you like him more than me but being a good friend here would mean telling Varsoon he has got to rethink his decisions here

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't apologize

If it doesn't happen again it's already forgiven and forgotten

[RadiantCowbells]

I am referring exclusively to Xyzzy's game.

I wanted to be clear on that

[RadiantCowbells]

It's actually tragic what happened with town because scum played exemplary and if the game was different they may have deserved a nom for this

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah I meant him specifically

Night actions were super good too though

[RadiantCowbells]

If it doesn't happen again it's already forgiven and forgotten

[RadiantCowbells]

I actually really regret coming in the way I did and I apologise for it I intended to say something in good faith but I guess I just ended up ranting instead. I don't want this to be a thing.

Varsoon would you be interested in reviewing an Undertale themed game?

[RadiantCowbells]

lol

U mad gamma?

[RadiantCowbells]

Someday me and NSG will win a game together

[RadiantCowbells]

If this game and our last game had gone in the other order DVA would have been paired with skies

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm sorry I was wrong if it helps

But I was never actually putting him in endgame