Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[skitter30]

morning all!

@mod i am regularly vla on fridays and saturdays

VOTE: nom

[skitter30]

So that the traffic analyst can't tell if you're scum?

VOTE: Eve

hey is this a serious vote?

[skitter30]

gut townpings on auro's first post
and maybe karnage too ?

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter30

heya nom

[skitter30]

Karnage on a scale of 1 to 10 how scared are you of my scumgame?

why are you asking karnage this?

[skitter30]

howdy i have mechanical reasons to wish to be on all wagons

VOTE: BBMolla

This is pinging me

-Smarter

ok, how is it pinging you?
i kinda think that would be a pretty ballsy post for scum to enter the game with in this setup tbh

I do think failing to pick up on obvious jokes can reflect cognitive load, and scum generally has greater cognitive load than town

VOTE: Something_Smart

i think that auro's present gimmick comes from town more often than not

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

I don't like the 2 naked votes then a "pagetop"

I would like to see them get more involved in the game

ok, given that the pagetop occured on like ... page 2, what are you expecting her to be doing here at this point?

[skitter30]

I do think failing to pick up on obvious jokes can reflect cognitive load, and scum generally has greater cognitive load than town

VOTE: Something_Smart

My ability to fail to pick up on obvious jokes is not to be underestimated.

-Smart

wasn't the other head the one that said that the post was pinging them?
also i'm assuming smart = something_smart?

[skitter30]

@ nom why'd you change your vote from bbmolla to me at that juncture?

@ auro i'm not sure i understand what that post is trying to convey
pedit or that one too; is it about karnage or nom

[skitter30]

@ auro i'm not sure i understand what that post is trying to convey

this was for 59

[skitter30]

i think that auro's present gimmick comes from town more often than not

I would expect that he planned to do it before seeing his role PM.

-Smart

fair enough; also like his posts are becoming a bit harder to parse and i'm not sure i'm liking that

ok, given that the pagetop occured on like ... page 2, what are you expecting her to be doing here at this point?

idk but something...

they were clearly paying enough attention to the game to know they could grab the pagetop so why not post something relevant to that first page?

actually i want to expand on this a bit because its not so much the pagetop but instead the fact it followed the 2 naked votes. I just don't like that nom is actively not participating if that makes sense

p-edit: ok. is auro a gimmick account or something?

- wrt nom i wanna know why she changed her vote to me; that's kinda relevant before i can gauge whether or not she's actively participating or not and how i feel about your reaction towards her posting
- auro is not a gimmick alt and doesn't usually post like this

[skitter30]

i'm not sure it does without knowing why she did it

[skitter30]

@ nom why'd you change your vote from bbmolla to me at that juncture?

scummy opening from what I know about your meta
my vote would be somewhere else right now but seriously if you're town with me this game should honestly go pretty fast, you're high sort priority

same, that's kinda why i've been focusing a bit on you and your vote on me
what did you find scummy about it?

@karnage i kinda guessed she was going to say that her vote on me was something along those lines, which is why i didn't particularly agree with your assessment that she hadn't done anything

i guess i can see why it would like that out of context but presumably she was trying to do something with her vote on me? idk

[skitter30]

The lilith head I think asked someone about an obvious joke, and the quote I posted is a general rule of thumb. It was interesting that they expected me to respond properly when I was gimmicking: prodding me and trying to get me to engage is something I ~kinda~ see as a convenient spot for scum to sit on.

tbf i didn't realize the extent of the gimmick until i think after that post happened
i agree with you on karnage

[skitter30]

interesting
t'was more trying to do my bit to start generating content because a lot of the stuff before that was fluffy

also the people i like to fluff with weren't really posting at the time, nor were there things like 'omg skitter is a great player', which is a thing that i sometimes greet the thread to these days

[skitter30]

tbf i didn't realize the extent of the gimmick until i think after that post happened

Note that although that specific gimmick was developed (poorly ) later on, my earlier posts were pretty much shitposts, and they had the same reaction to Eve.

this is kidna why i didn't like allo's first post ... it felt like they took eve's post rather too seriously, when i thought it was fairly obvious it was a joke/meme

[skitter30]

also the people i like to fluff with weren't really posting at the time

I can't believe you don't like fluffposting with me

you weren't on at the time!

[skitter30]

yo lilith how much mafia experience do you have?

[skitter30]

People who are good cop checks should try to stay off wagons, and people who are bad cop checks (either because they are widely townread or because they are widely scumread and likely to be mislynched anyway) should try to be on wagons.

Similarly all townies should self-hammer when they're about to be lynched in order to increase the cop pool.

i agree with the first
the second is interesting and didn't occur to me but might be a good idea actually

[skitter30]

That awkward moment when to want to vote and unvote someone at the same time.
Blergh
VOTE: Eve let's see what happens here

what are you thinking about their entrance?

[skitter30]

i thought it was pretty obvious that they were trying to 'build' a wagon, to go along with the 'i need to be on lynches' opener tbh

i kinda want to try this rn i think

VOTE: acryon

[skitter30]

I like keeping my vote on you though frankly.

what don't you like about gl here?

Just wanted to make sure that was the case. And when he shot back, you kind of fluffed in response.

if it wasn't the case wouldn't i have called her out on that claim?
not sure where you're seeing fluffing ?

(also i'm a she btw)

[skitter30]

gl's post is pinging me the wrong way

and eve is ... confusing me rn

[skitter30]

are you usually this like ... flippant?

[skitter30]

the traffic analyst claim is ... kinda weird
and so is your like overall tone

[skitter30]

like i'm having trouble seeing why the real traffic analyst would claim that
scum would want to be on wagon to avoid being checked

and idk why a vt would be doing what you're doing

[skitter30]

so like i have no idea why you'd want to be doing that as town
but like i can see some benefits to doing that as scum

pedit that's the flippant part

[skitter30]

meh even though it theoretically would/could benefit scum to post those things (and to follow through on things like lolhammers), i don't really see scum like actually making these posts unless they were super like cocky in their own scumgame, if that makes sense

[skitter30]

can you link your most recent scumgame?

[skitter30]

i'm feeling lazy; i'll take a look tom

[skitter30]

You're kinda deflecting there, Skitter

You were putting in energy to try and sort/engage with Eve, when was arguably easier to just go take a five-minute look. So you're saying you could have, but you just felt lazy then also?

yep, pretty much
and I see what you mean, the tone thing is probably nai

=

why does this always happen

you agree that the post I quoted is bad, right? and personally I wasn't impressed with the reply to me either.

i think the auro-paranoia think is what was pinging me? idk.

yeah, that's kinda why i voted there in the first place; his posts had this like passive ~poking at the edge of things without actually getting his feet yet~ kinda vibe, like he was posting for the purpose of posting

i actually thought his response about 'i think that calling what i'm doing scumhunting at all to be an overstatement' was decent and like self-aware in a way that i think is somewhat unlikely to come from scum, but i thought his reaction to your vote on him was OMGUS-y

I guess in writing this out though it might comes down to differing interpretations of tone.

p-edit: oh you're going the 'too scummy to be scum' route I guess

well not too scummy to be scum exactly so much as i'm not sure that scum think to respond to that accusation that way

like if you've accused scum of not scumhunting i think the natural reaction is to go like: 'no i have been scumhunting', or to deflect, but this feels more tongue-in-cheek and a bit more self-aware than that to me

that being said that's kinda like the only line in his iso thus far that i thought was low-key townie

=

Sorry I’ve been inactive. I’m having an off day. I’ll be back tomorrow.

i hope things get better soon!

[skitter30]

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

what do you think of my blank vote on you?

This and the few posts before it feel a bit like playing dumb for someone with so much experience.

it was obviously a meme but i was trying to determine if it was more likely to come from than town

UNVOTE:

[skitter30]

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

@gl i think that this bit (and tbh his OMGUS response to your vote) is kinda like the indignation that you're claiming his post lacks. i think that he maybe doesn't display indignation in exactly the way you're expecting him too but he's almost offended that you called him out on that and like ... scum just doesn't respond that way usually to an accusation of 'fake scumhunting' really

@ limit hydra: 170 isn't chock-full of content but it's kinda demonstrating a tone that's been peppering his posts that i think is low-key townie. like he's being ~self-aware / earnest / tongue-in-cheek-y'

also i'm not sure i agree with you on gl either

that being said i think the hydra is townie (in particular the Lilith head, i don't really have thoughts on ss rn)

[skitter30]

My main internal question right now is if it's town or scum from Skitter to be confused by eve's personality and press on it, intuition says it's townie because I know skitter... she'd probably drop this instantly and let eve scum it up then join the wagon later.

indeed

[skitter30]

But in that post she comes off as totally unafraid of Skitter and saying "game should honestly go pretty fast" is something I definitely cannot imagine scum!Nom saying to Skitter.

i'm not actually sure i'd agree with this assessment

[skitter30]

Like I would expect 128 from someone who had never played before or never seen an RVS jokeclaim, but clearly that doesn't match her experience level.

well it was more that she was taking it past rvs.
obviously yes I've seen many people make lolclaims in rvs; i usually disregard those (and that's why i didn't particularly care about her entrance that much, and i even found it low-key townie)

i don't see people going on like that *after* that point in the game, and if someone is going to post like that time you kinda need to try use what they're posting and how they're posting it to try to make a determination about their alignment

[skitter30]

auro why are you townreading nom?

[skitter30]

Which is it, acryon only said 1 line that was lowkey townie or he's been lowkey townie throughout multiple posts? Can you explain this contradiction? Presumably you wrote both of these posts after catching up on the whole thread, right?

no, i was catching up as i was reading and changed my mind as to how much weight i would be giving the tone as i read more of his posts, which is why i unvoted

i'm roughly here:

townie: limit, karnage, maybe acryon maybe auro
not townie: allo, maybe gl, maybe bbmolla

everyone else: not sure yet and/or i don't remember they're in the game

i was thinking of voting allo but i was kinda getting the vibe that if did l-1 eve might lolhammer and don't think we're quite ready for that yet

[skitter30]

Hmm okay.

What are your thoughts on nom slot? You seem to disagree with Auro's reasoning for townreading nom, so are you scumreading her?

- Smarter

i don't have a solid read yet. auro seems to think he's good at reading her, which is why i'd like to hear a bit more about why he's townreading her

the one thing that's pointing a bit towards town is the vig-logic thing because i know that that's a mindset she had been thinking of applying towards her towngames

[skitter30]

I don't think Rex and Skitter are scum together

oh this is an interesting take, why is that?

[skitter30]

- What do you think of everyone backing off acryon?
No idea why

well i kinda changed my read on him so i unvoted

i'm interested that the acryon wagon seems to have collapsed and reformed on allo. i don't have a read on allo himself but sudden general consensus there loosely points to town!allo too

[skitter30]

bbmolla do u have thoughts on gl?

[skitter30]

That's interesting. Isn't that something she could fake as scum fairly easily? What makes you think it points to town!nom?

well mostly cuz she told me at some point that this is how she wants to try approaching her towngames since her vig-reads are good so she wants to see if she applies them to her reads generally if that would improve her read-rate

i don't think it's impossible for her to fake (in particular in a game with me!) but given that, like, in the recent scumgame we just had she didn't try this method out makes me think she might be town here trying it in earnest

[skitter30]

does someone have townreads on Limit that is for beyond reasons that they post walls just curious

i liked 175, not necessarily because it's a wallpost but because i like the reasoning in it, even if i disagreed with most of it

i'm not sure i liked gl's allo vote tbh; it felt a bit band-wagon-y to me

[skitter30]

town

[skitter30]

because his posts just kinda bleed obvtown, which i'm aware you're going to tell me isn't a helpful answer

his posts are just kinda like very pure and are making correct/astute observations at the right time without them feeling belabored. i'm not sure how to explain what i'm seeing there better

also i liked his early interaction with me about his nom vote

[skitter30]

i meant that i was thinking of voting allo earlier, except i realized i would have been the l-1 vote, and i could see eve lolhammering there

it's not a strong read on allo, and it isn't for his play or himself, but the gamestate loosely points to that, yeah

igornoring eve's vote i think gl's vote is the worst vote on the wagon

[skitter30]

because i don't like how he dropped his acryon push when you and the hydra started a thing on allo

[skitter30]

i felt the timing was a bit suspect, yeah

to borrow your metaphor, FMPOV what happened was I saw you planting rocks, not real seeds. I entirely disagree with 2). And how is it disingenuous to criticize what I saw as planting rocks? Scum are scum and faking, no matter how far along they are in growing their fake garden.

especially following this bit ^ he's still having issues with his posting and not really understanding acryon's pov

[skitter30]

I think I disagree. That post in particular shows a nuanced thought over a player. If a scum isn't a stream-of-consciousness machine, they mostly produce content that is fairly one sided on people and tend to categorize as GOOD, BAD or WISHY-WASHY. Producing a post that goes like "I heavily disagree with what you say and here's why... but I think I townread you" takes either a townie mind, or a scum that understands how to properly replicate that kind of nuance, which is honestly hard as fuck.

meh, i can kinda see what you like about it but i disagree

If we're talking about suspect timing, I'd recommend checking the progression of Allo regarding Eve and Acryon. Suddenly understood eve was shitposting when I said it was shitposting, and suddenly produces a real vote and thought on a player when I accused him of not doing that, on a player everyone more or less suspected previously. That timing and progression is just really bad. I think that the wagon forming really fast is just due to conversational missteps from Allo rather than having scum support. That's my inner feeling on this one.

for the eve bit, he understood that eve was shitposting in like his second post, wherein i asked him if his initial vote on eve was serious, and his suspicion of her is p consistent throughout
like if he's scum does he decide to unvote eve there just cuz you did?

i do agree with you that his acryon vote was p awful tho

also as i'm rereading through your/allo's interaction i just realized that for some reason i thought 5 votes was hammer, not 6

i thought gl had placed the l-2 vote, and that eve had done l-1, and it felt faster to me than it actually was, i think.
and it felt kinda off in that everyone was just fine with this l-1 wagon springing up in like a page and a half
which made me think there was a p decent chance that there was some scum involvement or support for it, so i went looking for it

but what i thought had happened is not what actually had happened
so i don't think that this line of thought is, like, relevant really

[skitter30]

i don't have a solid read yet. auro seems to think he's good at reading her, which is why i'd like to hear a bit more about why he's townreading her

I don't think that.
I've already listed reasoning for why I townread her, no? Do you want me to explain that a bit more?

i think i'm having some trouble getting into this game; bits and pieces of it keep escaping me, sorry

i actually didn't remember that you'd already given reasons for it
as far as i can tell, it's mostly 184?
i'm not sure i really agree with your read on her personality tbh, she doesn't strike me as being afraid of starting a fight with really anyone as scum
also i think that as scum she'd kinda want to try to pocket me

[skitter30]

what do you think of my vote on allomancer skitter i thought it was pretty impressive

i thought it was inane and like you were trying to catch him in a contradiction

[skitter30]

ok sorry i'm going to try this again tomorrow
i keep reading things and like nothing is sticking in my head

[skitter30]

ok i have about an hour, let's see what i can do

- i think that auo's proposal of his townbloc/coordination of it is townie, for one since he isn't advocating any particular placement for himself, but more importantly because this pov is forming how he approaches the game as a whole and how he's interacting with other slots ; i think he's thought about how to optimize this setup from a town pov and is carrying it out to the best of his ability

You said it makes you not scum with anyone out of your townblock. That's the claim that I don't accept.

this bit is a strongman

Skitter/GuiltyLion, are you both individually fine with being offwagon? I absolutely am.

sure

this is bad VCA/wagonomics IMO

unless you wanna point to specific players that you think were the scum on both wagons, you can't really make a conclusion about Allo based off Acryon wagon, especially without flips from anybody yet. And if you're starting from "both wagons happened quickly and had similar players so it's likely scum were on them" then that's assuming from the get-go that the two wagoned players are town and will bias your reads from there

well i was kinda thinking about you ...

There's pretty much no such thing as a risk with no payoff for scum. If scum stay off the wagon and aren't investigated, they look townier because they opened themselves up to getting guiltied.

but i think that here the risk (a 2/5 chance of getting investigated) would be greater than the reward (oh if i happen to not be investigated i'd like townie)
i feel like you're almost trying to shade the group of people who would end-up offwagon, which is kinda where you'd expect scum to try *not* to be

I disliked their last three posts

what made their last three posts worse than the rest of their iso?

[skitter30]

VOTE: BBMolla

having potential scum be checked should be a lot more useful to you than yourself being cleared

I'm confused?

your voting BB but critizing auro? or am i interpreting this wrong?

he's criticizing auro for (he's positing) prioritizing the potential of getting checked and cleared over getting a guilty
whereas i think auro is more trying to prioritize clearing difficult slots (and if people think he belongs in that group he's fine with it, which is probably not how scum chooses to coordinate this game)

so they're fundamentally disagreeing on how to use traffic analyst, basically
eve's complaint about auro makes sense in that context, i think, and i think he voted bbmolla for siding with him

[skitter30]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

this all at once sounds: svs, wishy-washy, and throwing in platitudes to try to prevent an allo lynch (which isn't imminently happening anyways ...)

[skitter30]

I was already cooling on Eve and this recent stretch hasn't helped.

i actually thought the recent stretch was fine, for once

[skitter30]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

You’re saying that on page 16 we don’t have enough info to lynch, but you were happy to say that Eve should be lynched back on page 9 for even less content than Allomancer has as of 371. What’s up with that?

- Smarter

... this is also a strawman, this is what they actually said:

Her posts don’t seem very towny, but I’m willing to overlook that as early-game banter if her play gets better. If it does not, I think she is the correct day 1 lynch, unless someone else does something worse.

he's saying that *if* she doesn't play better, she's correct lynch
that's not the same as saying she should be lynched

[skitter30]

Karnage’s tone is obvtown

when did you form this read?

[skitter30]

Whilst I feel that TheLimitDoesNotExist is clearly mafia

Really? You don't think they could be reading things wrongly, Rex?
You're 100% sure they're being disingenuous and not that there's a miscommunication somewhere?

i think they're being disingenuous, yeah
sauce is fine, i think
i think he seems to be a 'slow and steady' sort of player who wants to utilize the full time as much as possible, which is why he told us to slow our horses on allo and even now he's saying that he isn't advocating a limit lynch right now

his allo push was bad but he exhibited the same mindset in ... all three of his stated lynch/scum options (eve, allo, and limit), so i think that this is just how he approaches the game and how he feels about the best way to use our time

smart is shading your townbloc strategy, and smarter is misrepping people to push them
and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

[skitter30]

and smarter is misrepping people to push them

or at the very least, is repeatedly pontificating about how bad a person's post is and framing things in a negative light in order to get their point across

[skitter30]

If Smarter did not understand what I meant by the phrase “If not,” then he should have asked for clarification before making conclusions based upon it.

Ironic coming from someone who is jumping to conclusions instead of assuming good faith.

-Smart

i mean, that's kinda what your slot did here too but ok

[skitter30]

Rex, I can guarantee you 100% that the slot you're pushing is town.
Enable HH:mm::ss (optional) in account settings; then observe the timestamps of posts of both heads.

You will find that they are posting independently, and I struggle to imagine how they could possibly be coordinating that.

Then, go ahead and read a Something_Smart scum PT. You will find that he plans out a lot of things. Perhaps the Crown of Misery one, where he was scum alongside me.

Then, ask yourself if he would suddenly abandon a pattern of careful posting and planning and pursue a strategy where he and his partner freely, independently post strong stances.

Then, you tell me if you still think they're scum.

:3

i'm not following, why does posting independently indicate that they're townie here?
are you arguing that ss would be trying to coordinate their thoughts / minimize dissonance as scum here because he likes to plan things, and that if he were scum he would not be ok with Lilith posting so freely ? otherwise i'm not sure i'm understanding what you're trying to say

also, where do i find the seconds option in account settings, i was actually looking for it last night but couldn't find it

[skitter30]

Eve!

maybe but I need to go back and look at skitter again first

hi

[skitter30]

Skitter's alignment should be pretty clear once we get a scum lynch.

I don't wanna lynch Eve right now, this is mislynch bait.

how so?
i kinda agree with you on eve

[skitter30]

I don't like Saurasaurus Rex's posts. I think Eve's shifted a bit scummier with her vote on BBmolla. I feel like you're getting a bit townier, but I still scumread you.

allo why exactly are you scumreading acryon?
i'm actually kinda surprised that you're still voting acryon and not voting eve tbh?

[skitter30]

fair enough!

[skitter30]

I plan to effort here to a degree that it's usually really-hard-if-not-impossible for me to replicate as scum.

Do u think u have at this point?

[skitter30]

How are you reading auro at present?

[skitter30]

honestly I think that I have, that was kinda how the whole discussion started, but I'm willing to acknowledge that to other players who don't know my alignment it may not be that easy to see

i guess ultimately what i'm getting back to is it seems unreasonable to me that you were dinging auro townpoints because he didn't see the difference between your town and scumgames

[skitter30]

what made their last three posts worse than the rest of their iso?

the rest of the iso was nullish so I just wanted to be specific

I really didn't like 312 347 357, they all just seem like under the radar scum posts

no offense but i don't see what makes these posts any different than the other posts she made; it feels like a convenient way to justify your vote when you decide you want to vote their since it seems like you can say just that about almost any of her posts

[skitter30]

i mean, that's kinda what your slot did here too but ok

Well, sure. I didn't say it was scummy, just erroneous. I didn't read the posts closely but it looks like lilith made a mistake, which happens but of course should be avoided as much as possible.

-Smart

my point is that if you're expecting people to understand that Lilith just made a mistake and came to an erroneous conclusion , accusing rex of jumping to conclusions and acting in bad faith seems like a double standard that you're using to shade him and to negate his point

[skitter30]

and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

Really? Have we played together recently other than in PYP? Because I was hella passive in that game.

-Smart

? no you weren't?

[skitter30]

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

it's possible that you misunderstood his point, sure

but:
1. the two of you have strawmanned and/or misrepresented people's arguments in other places too, so it's not like this is the only instance or anything
2. rex seems to be the sort of player who is cautious of wagons going too high and of lynching too early; this is a common thread in his post that i pointed out early; he's already done this three times this game. given that ... bashing him on the fact that he wants people to slow down a bit and calling him out on it and getting into a fight with him about it seems a bit silly

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

you realize that i can think his post is bad but at the same time dislike how you interpreted, right?
and that i can change my mind about what i thought about his post once i read more of his posts?
and that his latter posts invalidated what you were calling him out for there
and where did i strawman, pray tell?

[skitter30]

203 is the first time I explicitly mentioned it, in particular based on 201 where I would not expect scum to question being placed in a townbloc, but I've been townleaning/townreading him for the majority of the game. I revisited this read in 250, basically wanting Karnage to get more activity in so I could see if I needed to update my earlier read; and his series of posts in 298, 299, 301, 305, and 306 helped solidify that townread for me.

what was the point of 277 and 279 ?

[skitter30]

i'm like 4 pages behind, let me read and then i'll get to that

[skitter30]

Another question for you, skitter:

Who is the other "s" in "svs"?

allo, obviously

pedit, i mean then what did you think about my karnage read then?

[skitter30]

lol I don't know how anyone can read posts like 514 and think that limit hydra is scum

Allo/skit kinda feels like The Solve for me rn.

uh no, it's disingenuous, ate-y, and acting like i'm incapable of changing my mind

[skitter30]

allo, again, why are you still voting acryon?

[skitter30]

I'm saying exactly this. I noticed when I was questioning them on strategy talk. Both Smart and Smarter were online, responded giving the true answer independently at the same time; that's one instance I'd definitely think they would think to talk to each other about first if scum.

ok, have you actually seen him do this in a hydra to his partner?
or alternatively, ss do you have any hydra scum games you can point me to?

i'm not sure he's the sort of person who would make sure the heads are on the exact same page before either of them posted?

[skitter30]

you're more interested in solving the question of 'who can benefit town if town' vs who can't regardless of alignment, and I think that's a bad way to form reads and an easy way to lead to mislynches.

i mean, no, that's not quite what he's doing

he's basically prioritizing:
- if people are universally obvtown there's no reason for them to take up a potential cop-slot, so they ought to be onwagon
- if people are not, or are hard-to-read, they should be off-wagon
- once we're looking at the people offwagon, we should prioritize copping the people who are hard to read but would be effective as an inno
- if someone is neither obvtown nor effective as town, we should consider lynching them (which is kinda what we do anyways, in not-this-setup)

saying that auro's strategy can lead to mislynches is, like, technically true but is kinda ignoring the overall strategy, and also feels tmi-y to me

also, hi, let's talk about why you're scumreading me

[skitter30]

As scum it's important to give correct answers to factual questions, when I ask "did you guys discuss strategy before playing the game" for example - safer to make sure they're on the same page regarding answering that.

they can be either town or scum who didn't discuss strategy before playing the game and give a truthful answer either way ...

[skitter30]

Skitter didn't respond to my case for 1/0. I see that as a sign of acceptance. What should I be reading into? If scum trying to legitimately push 1/0 she'd probably respond to that.

well more that i hadn't looked at the game since Friday, but ok

[skitter30]

Please read 514 and then tell me your thoughts. She called us disingenuous after making a post that directly agreed with my response to Sausasaurus.

yes, i agree that rex's post was bad

however, my point is that you took his previous post of context to make a point.
and that you've done this in multiple places

and reading more of his posts makes it clear that he strongly believes in taking things slow and not lynching too fast. instead of acknowledging that this is his mindset towards the game and having that influence how you're reading him, you doubled down on calling him scummy for not wanting to immediately lynch allo (437) and said he was arguing in bad faith. (419)

[skitter30]

Yes, she points out a post from Rex as SvS-y and what not, attacks your attacks on him because they feel disingenuous to her, then progresses to a nullish read on Rex - I frankly don't see the problem here. It's just a thought process? Perhaps if you read it under that light, you will see that her posts are consistent with updating beliefs on catching up, instead of looking for consistency as a single belief state as a whole.

^

[skitter30]

@limit hydra is the reads lilith presenting the combined reads of the two of you or just lilith's? and if the latter can smart give some reads too?

[skitter30]

Can be, but it's safer to discuss it first instead of assuming the other is going to be truthful about it as well, no?

eh i can kinda see your point but i think this conclusion starts with the assumption that if they're lying they'd need to coordinate when it's possible they're not lying and are just both telling the truth

hey what are you thinking of gl right now?
i'm thinking of voting him

[skitter30]

“Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.”

It feels like a contrived progression on us

no, this is a contrived understanding of the progression of my rex read and my issue with your post, but ok

[skitter30]

She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument.

not really, but ok

i think that once the misrepping thing had been cleared up and that rex's pov regarding how lynches ought to be done should have affected how you were reading his posts, and instead you just doubled down on saying it was scummy that he was wanted to immediately prevent an allo lynch

[skitter30]

No, I start with the assumption that they do not commit to not-lying before the game, in which case the individually safer play is to assume that the other's answer *may* differ from theirs given what I asked.
They both independently replied under a minute; that thought didn't even come to them. No hesitation.

I don't feel good about GuiltyLion, if I haven't said that in my walls to him

i think i'm going to think about this point a bit more because i think we're miscommunication somewhere and/or i'm not presenting what i'm trying to say properly

[skitter30]

I don't feel that Lilith is coming from a place of intentional misrepresentation though, I think she just doesn't understand the double standards that others perceive. Skitter, what do you feel about Lilith's continued engagement on this?

i think her engagement back on this is p decent, and the more i'm bickering with her about this, the more i'm feeling we're both very firmly entrenched in believing that 'our side is right' and I've been sniping back because i feel like she isn't really understanding my pov, so i feel like i need to keep repeating myself to get my point across

and i think she's doing the same thing to me, and that she's annoyed with me for the same reasons, and so i'm not entirely sure i can fault her for that

i am willing to acknowledge that she may have misunderstood rex's initial post about eve, and the more i'm bickering about this the more i'm kinda feeling like she sincerely believes what she's arguing

[skitter30]

VOTE: gl

[skitter30]

? no you weren't?

I feel like I was. I didn't really push my reads aside from my Billy scumread D1, but even that I backed off on before the end of the day.

-Smart

ok, but you actually, like, had reads that you were sharing, and had a pretty strong thread presence and whenever things started to go in a direction you didn't like, you would definitely let people know

that's not happening here. i have no idea what your reads are and you're basically popping in to bicker about mechanics with auro and that's like all i can remember you doing

[skitter30]

also, hi, let's talk about why you're scumreading me

Hi, who should I be scum reading instead? You're voting me instead of either Eve/Allo, do you think both are town? Who's my partner in your eyes rn?

also I see some other stuff I wanna respond to but I just skimmed and don't have energy right this second, I'll prob post a lot more in a bit

a) this doesn't really answer my question
b) i think you're scummier than both of them
c) asking me for a full-solve on day 1 without any flips is silly and unreasonable

[skitter30]

as for one reason why I'm scumreading you, it's pretty bad townplay to vanity vote me here instead of actually taking stances on either of the L-2 or L-3 wagons and I expect better from you for that. scum!skitter last time I played with her similarly ended the first day not being or discussing either of the major wagons of the day

I've given stances on both of them, thank you
also which game was that?

[skitter30]

also feels tmi-y to me

also explain this

is the TMI part that I think Eve is good odds of a mislynch? Or that I am talking to Auro as if I believe he's town? Why are either of those more likely to come from scum!me then town!me

the former, that you're saying that auro's method for sorting eve could lead to easy mislynches

he's working off of a pretty holistic method for optimizing sorting the entire pl , and from that pov, putting eve in his lynch pile makes sense. like, how else should he be trying to sort a slot like eve here given his entire approach to the game?

saying this felt like you were trying to negate his plan by saying it could lead to mislynches , which is technically true, but is kinda like ignoring how eve slots into his whole pov

[skitter30]

sooooo... you agree with me TLDNE hydra is town here, yes?

Lilith head, maybe
ss head, no

[skitter30]

already have more posts in this game than in my recent Newbie scum game now btw, which was twice as long

you're so willing to townbin Allo for playing similar to town games, yet can't seem to give me any credit whatsoever when this should really obviously stand apart from my most recent scumgames

i'm kinda not following why you're expecting allo to recognize town!you here as compared to the newbie when you've kinda conceded that although you're saying your play here is different than your scumgame you don't necessarily expect other people to see that yet

[skitter30]

We agree 1/0 is town. Anyone who attacks that slot at this point is going to get flak from me,

it's not a pro-town move at all and just reads like trying to open up a future lynchpool

. And then skitter winds up... townreading 1/0 anyway. Either she's not thinking at all and just messily posting lazy takes or she's scum.

you realize that that's not my scum mo in the slightest, right?

i had issues with how Lilith approached rex, yeah
i ultimately think that her indignation / annoyance at me is probably townie, but i don't agree that ss is playing to his town meta here. you earlier said at some point that you think i ought to be recognizing that ss is town here. why do you think that?

[skitter30]

is skitter saying "but ok" a lot an AI thing?

no, it's an 'i'm exasperated with you lot' thing

[skitter30]

like, sure, I probably am being unreasonable about it. I tend to overreact to people who I expect to townread me not townreading me

but
why do you think I'm scum for that? Isn't this like extremely plausible to come from a town!GL

thinking on it I've noticed this pattern from you before, you seem reactive to ways I try to pull towncred as town and then decide I'm scum because you don't like it, rather than like actually considering whether there's town motivation in doing what I do

if you're town here I realllyyyy need you to engage more with Eve/Allo slots and give me stuff to work with on those fronts

auro's pretty townread right now but you keep pulling up this notion of being paranoid of him and/or expecting him to read you better when you've kinda acknowledged . you have these unreasonable expectations of how he ought to be reading you and when he doesn't live up to them, you say you can't townread him. it feels like a way for you to keep him at arm's length and allowing you to not townread him.
idk why this is more likely to come from town!you than scum!you

i was actually going to call you out on complaining about my eve read when it's kinda similar to your own but i just went through my own iso and i don't see the post i thought i wrote so maybe it never made it into the thread
but basically, i think that she's scummy on the face of it but there's a few things that point to town, so i'm not particularly interested there right now:
1. her opener wrt the traffic analyst probably just doesn't come from scum, i don't think scum are that brazen usually
2. calling out auro for him being willing to be off-wagon when from his pov he knows he's town
3. and just her whole shtick i have a hard time seeing scum play that way the whole game

i'm still kinda trying to work on getting a definitive read on allo but he's ignored my last few posts

[skitter30]

VOTE: gl

urgh, really? You don't want to lynch in allo/eve? At least the eve flip reveals associative, I have no faith in a GL lynch.

he's scummy tho

[skitter30]

So skitter drops the entire push and says "okay I guess hydra is town" as soon as she receives external pressure regarding her push on me,

and you're just cool with that? I can concede that her posts reflect thought progression in terms of the change in Sausasaurus read that I didn't see before, but she has repeatedly called us misreppy, contrived, and disingenuous for multiple different posts we made, not just the initial misunderstanding that happened, but she has never once outright called our slot scummy for it and also didn't vote us. Skitter might be satisfied to "drop it" seeing as she couldn't get any traction on us, but I'm not cool with this just being pushed aside.

i mean, this is also at best an uncharitable way of reading my what i said ?
like idk what you expect me to say here, it's just another example in the pattern that I've called out already

either you're scum trying to find ways to throw shade on people, or you're town and are really good at misreading people's intentions
i'm not sure that re-litigating this argument is really going to get us anywhere tho :shrug:

like this entire paragraph kinda proves my point

do you want me to go through it all again in answering the rest of your post or

[skitter30]

Do you have a preferred lynch?

I have very few reads actually. You and acryon are my only townreads worthy of the name, and I don't have any scumreads.

So no, not really.

-Smart

yeah so this is kinda what i meant by passive ^

[skitter30]

but she also backed off kinda suddenly without really resolving the issue.

.... that's not really what i did either

[skitter30]

Hopefully this makes clear that it's not her attacking me without voting our slot that's my issue, it's the fact that she has repeatedly deflected my attempts to engage with her directly and danced around throwing us shade without actually calling us scummy as if she's hoping someone else will push us.

ok it's getting late and i'm starting to get too tired to figure out how to say this again in a different way that will maybe get across to you, so I'll pick up here tomorrow ^

[skitter30]

i feel like this is a really bad communication issue at this point and i don't really know how else to fix it

[skitter30]

I disagree with the suggestion that being passive is somehow uncharacteristic of my towngame.

tbf i'm not sure I've played *super* much with town!you
but this doesn't feel like the town!you i have played before

as for the first point regarding Auro - yeah, it's hard for me to fully townread people when they spend most of the game discrediting/ignoring my scumreads and saying I'm scum! that's normal, is it not? Especially when I do try to engage with that player in good faith and answer as many questions they ask of me as much as I reasonably can and it never seems to make any headway with them.

i'm pretty sure you saying you were paranoid of him is what initiated this whole shebang ...
also, no, i don't think he's discrediting/ignoring your scumreads, he's been engaging you about them pretty thoroughly and consistently and i think is making a pretty earnest attempt to understand your pov
also somebody scumreading you doesn't inherently make them scummy either ?

like what do you think scum!him is trying to do with all of this discourse / back-and-forth dialogue that's been flooding the thread if he isn't even going to to push you; like if he's scum and is trying to manufacture a push on town!you he has ample room to go there already but just like ... isn't committing to that, so what is he trying to accomplish here as scum anyways?

as for why I am kinda thinking it's town - I'm not sure if scum!Skitter says she was going to call me out for ignoring an explanation but then realizes she didn't actually ever post it, that's a bit hard for scum to think of or naturally fake. I think scum would kinda just acknowledge that they hadn't posted it yet, not make up an extra lie about originally going to call me out

also this is a bad reason to give me townpoints, i'm entirely capable of faking this

[skitter30]

my townrad of karnage has largely evaporated at this point

[skitter30]

Interesting. What about it did you like?

i explained that in 484

The walls between you two did not feel like TvT. I’m not sure which side is which though.

agreed, except that i think that auro is the t and gl is the s

also you realize you're dinging allo for this:

As others have mentioned, his vote being on me still, especially when I am “looking townier”, just makes no sense.

when you're doing something pretty similar to eve, right?

- Posts like 631 feel very town to me, but they're not enough to push me off my vote.

[skitter30]

what is he trying to accomplish here as scum anyways?

Drown the thread in walls which people can't read so everyone gets frustrated

eh that's a fair point
easier ways to take control of the game here as scum tho i think

[skitter30]

There is no reason not to lynch Allo here. Nobody townreads the guy.

i'm not actually convinced he's being run up for doing like scummy things so much as for having a scummy playstyle

[skitter30]

skitter what's your read on me

nullscum

[skitter30]

Let's revisit this D2.

i'm fine with that

[skitter30]

I was just kidding - but yeah, definitely.

i mean if you were scum trying to do that it seems to be working
a lot of people are getting annoyed with the walls and i'm going to be honest and admit to skimming some of the recent you/gl back-and-forth here

[skitter30]

i know, i was originally a wallposter way back when
and i think i might be starting to revert back to that playstyle actually and can whip them out whenever i feel the need to elaborate my point at length

but think I've kinda gotten all i'm going to get out of you/gl so i kinda stopped reading them, you're kinda belaboring the point amongst yourselves and i can tell from skimming that it's just kinda reinforcing the conclusions I've already drawn

[skitter30]

~75%

[skitter30]

it's higher than anything else i've got right now

[skitter30]

i am scumreading gl less now

[skitter30]

i think that eve is basically lynchbait and i dont' really want to end the day voting there, it would kinda feel like a waste after everything
it's like voting notmafia ... yes they're annoying and not being +townie but that doesn't inherently make them scummy

nom you're basically voting people for 'not doing townie things' as opposed to 'for doing scummy things', which i think is kinda fallacious and i think you can find something better to push
and why are you dropping allo now anyways ?

i'm ok pressuring this VOTE: karnage

[skitter30]

Why not karnage
Why yes eve when you've said you think she's lynchbait

[skitter30]

While at first I thought Karnage seemed like town, the fact that multiple people have defended him as just being gut town feels odd. It feels like one of {acryon, molla} could've said that to try to prevent a wagon forming on a partner without having to describe their reads. I also don't like molla's posting generally, that I'm no longer sure which of those two could be scum.

VOTE: Karnage

Easier than having to guess between acryon and molla.

He's been dipping in and out of thread for the last several days wothout really doing anything anf giving vague 'i looked at his iso and i dont see why he's scum type reads'
Like he had a few takes in the beginning of the game that i kinda liked but those sorts of takes kinda disappeared

Also i wasnt aware that townposts made u disengage so strongly? Can you point to another time that happened?

[skitter30]

I meant wallposts, yeah

[skitter30]

... really ?

[skitter30]

If they werent sorted before then, yeah

[skitter30]

Nooooooooooom i want to hear more about my slip

[skitter30]

VOTE: nom

[skitter30]

i'm kinda most skeptical of where she accused me of slipping because i really don't think there's any universe where she actually believes that

[skitter30]

i dont' really think it was tbh

@mod can we get a vc please

due to my prolonged absence, i am including a votecount as of this post here.

-nsg

Spoiler: Votecount

Target	Wagon
Allomancer (2)	The Limit Does Not Exist (713), SausasaurusRex (802)
Eve (2)	Auro (330), nomnomnom (853)
nomnomnom (2)	Eve (868), skitter30 (891)
Karnage (1)	Allomancer (850)
Not Voting (4)	Karnage (299), GuiltyLion (717), BBmolla (786), acryon (811)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[skitter30]

What prevents you from saying "I'm sick of this, just get me one more flip" after D1, D2, D3...?

We get a flip and the gamestate advances.
Right now it feels stagnant and I hate these phases where it feels like I'm reading pages and pages, I retain nothing out of it that was useful in terms of sorting and so on and so forth.
It often happens in larges and sometimes I just replace out if that type of gamestate is sustained, like in undertale.

also this feels like a very ~strange~ way to feel about the gamestate rn
i get it wrt the long walls, but the *whole* game hasn't been walls, and we've kinda moved past them for the past few days, so i'm finding it odd that this is how she's feeling at this point, i'm feeling more into the game now then i was a few days back

and her eve vote feels kinda lazy

[skitter30]

i dont' think town!nom plays this way either tho

[skitter30]

I'd rather be honest and say that I have trouble reading most of the game rather than pretending to do and prodging and shit.
Just blergh skitter is voting me for a garbage reason kinda makes me want to vote there too now, couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

oh?

[skitter30]

ok
VOTE: nom
for emphasis

[skitter30]

Eh, fuck it. The fact that skitt actually voted me after stating that karnage is scum and dropping that read really fast is a really big red flag and I am not taking chances.
VOTE: Skitter
bbmolla feels a bit sketch too, I don't know where this day is going and honestly I'm having no fucking clue right now.

like everything you've said to/about me in the last couple of pages is awful, how in earth do you come to the conclusion that me voting you here is scummy for me ...

[skitter30]

It could be a legit slip that's why I pointed out.
I'm not 100% entertaining it as a legit slip, just pointing that out right now because slips become apparent in late game.

like what on earth?
it doesn't even make sense as a slip, pushing this is ridiculous ???

[skitter30]

The thing is that if I vote skitt right now it's going to cause a 1v1 gamestate and I'm likely to lose the 1v1 and if we're both town that's a very bad gamestate to induce on purpose.
I'm just pondering things really, I'd go on a 1v1 if I was 1v1 convinced, but I am not.
UNVOTE:

and inducing this gamestate on purpose right after you say this ???

[skitter30]

um so you're just not going to respond to any of that ?

[skitter30]

ok
we don't have to make a whole thing but i also don't think i'm going to be unvoting you really

[skitter30]

he's not doing looking that great either rn

[skitter30]

ok, why does it make you feel ill at ease ?
i thought her vote was fine, your preceding posts were bad and i almost voting you for them too

[skitter30]

i kinda think you're fully capable of putting out these sorts of posts as scum, and then telling me that i shouldn't be scumreading you for them
like you pulled the same 'there's no way i would be doing this as scum' thing in the micro

[skitter30]

but the things you're pushign me for are just like ... bad?
i don't get how you actually believe some of the things you've posted about me in the past few pages

[skitter30]

like i don't know why you'd write posts about how you're confused as scum
but i also don't know how you've made most of your recent posts as town either

[skitter30]

can you just explain how i slipped
i'm not going to drop that cuz it was patently ridiculous and you haven't explained it and your follow-up makes it seem like you actually believe it ?

bbmolla is kinda scummy imo

[skitter30]

his early posts were good, yeah
i guess scum!you could manufacture a place/reason to vote ...
i'm just having a hard time with the awfulness of the last few pages

but who was it a townpost of even, it doesn't even make sense as a slip ...

i guess i'm ok with wagoning bbmolla in the abstract but i'm not sure i want to unvote you rn
and i'm not sure i want to vote the person you're suggesting either rn

edit i guess i don't entirely understand your eve/allo progressions either really
why the allo unvote
why the eve vote
why are they both potentially town now

[skitter30]

bleh
UNVOTE:
i need to think about this and whether i'm letting the ate get to me

[skitter30]

more accurately, you're posting in a way that i tend to sympathize with and i need to take a step back to evaluate because in the moment it sounds good and i'm not good at reading these sorts of posts

if that makes sense

also i'm kinda exhausted and i need to get to bed soon so i kinda just want to sleep on it

[skitter30]

bbmolla who's scum?

[skitter30]

VOTE: nom
i thought about it some more and her push on me is awful and i think she's fully capable of making the sorts of posts she made last night as scum

my townread on karnage has all bu evaporated, and i'm kinda starting to see some nom/karnage vibes

i'm confused why we're going back to an eve/allo paradigm

[skitter30]

sarcasm can be a joke.

you realize she all but admitted that it wasn't a joke, right?

[skitter30]

I think that whichever of Allo/Eve we lynch, the other should be on the wagon.

-Smart

do you mean off the wagon ?

[skitter30]

Do you not think Karnage's willingness to be in the cop bloc is not town indicative?

no? pretty much all scum have to say that, it's nai

[skitter30]

i hope nsg is ok
but it looks like she hasn't been on-site since monday or so, so i'm going to pm mariar now about it

[skitter30]

where do you see continuously volunteering, i just remember him saying it like once

[skitter30]

ok actually twice

[skitter30]

I'm cool with not being on the wagon

I'm fine with being off wagon

And again very recently.

yeah those were the two posts i saw too
i don't think these are townie, no

[skitter30]

i don't really think volunteering (i guess vs. it being brought up and then affirming you don't mind being off-wagon, which seems to be the difference you're emphasizing) is ai here tbh
or at least i don't think that it speaks much to someone's alignment

how are these volunteering anyways:

Doesn't look like a joke to me.

Thoughts on a cop check between Karnage and nom off the wagon?

I'm fine with being off wagon

f we’re choosing between the two D1 wagons I think it’s gotta be Eve, and switch Eve and Karnage

I still prefer GL in the townbloc over karnage, bbmolla, and rex

I'm cool with not being on the wagon

they're both pretty immediately on the heels of discussion of whether or not he should be on-wagon anyways
i don't think the distinction you're drawing here means much

[skitter30]

ok and ... ?
i don't see how that makes it townie or makes it anything but nai?

[skitter30]

sorry, i don't see it, i think that scum can say that too there

like i'm not saying that town can't
i just think that town would for the reason you would, and i can see scum saying it too in order to highlight that they don't mind being offwagon, it gives them some easy townpoints imo

[skitter30]

i thought the joke thing was pretty bad too, it at the very least indicates he's not reading carefully because nom was pretty emphatic about it being serious

[skitter30]

ok can i interst you in voting there then @acryon?

Unofficial VC by Smarter

Allomancer - rex
Eve - nom, acryon, 1/0
karnage - allomancer
Nom - eve, skitter, gl

Not voting - karnage, bbmolla, auro

this is what the current vc looks like now i think
(this isn't a quote i just pulled a quote of the last one smarter made and adjusted it per the votes that were made since then, to clarify)

[skitter30]

do u currently scumread those people?

also mariar said that if nsg doesn't show up by tomorrow-ish she'll arrange for a backup mod, just fyi

[skitter30]

lol that would be pretty cool
i'm pretty sure that's an unintended loophole tho, but i'm sure nsg can clarify if/when she gets back

[skitter30]

Eve is just kinda lynchbait tho
Reverting there feels kinda lazy

[skitter30]

Auro can i interest u in joining the nom wagon?

[skitter30]

Lynches will occur when a majority (>50%) is reached. If no majority is reached before deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched.

So we can have a single vote plurality "wagon" with no one else voting, thus making virtually anyone coppable?

@nsg

[skitter30]

is there some kind of general consensus I'm missing that nom is a good scumplayer?

- Smarter

Yes

[skitter30]

@limit can i interest u in voting nom?

[skitter30]

I can see it, yeah

[skitter30]

i'm going to unvote solely for wagon comp purposes but if the wagon deflates again i'm going to vote there again
UNVOTE:

[skitter30]

VOTE: nom

[skitter30]

we only have like a day and a half left so i think we need to start consolidating
i would prefer a nom lynch, but i would be ok with lynching karnage and leashing the cop onto nom

[skitter30]

i'm not really vibing an allo lynch rn
UNVOTE:

^ again entirely for wagon comp purposes

i'm not goign to be here for part of the time between tonight and close to deadline because of my weekend vla, but if a different lynch happens while i'm gone because i unvoted for wagon comp reasons and there weren't enough votes to lynch her i'll be annoyed

[skitter30]

Skitter, Guilty, you're both OK with Nom lynch, yes?

i'm not just 'ok' with it, it's my ideal lynch rn

[skitter30]

VOTE: karnage

[skitter30]

the scumteam's probably quite competent if they correctly ascertained Allo was traffic guy and risked killing a highly mislynchable potential townie

VOTE: skitter

it's you isn't it

his softing wasn't exactly ... subtle
i'm pretty sure gl saw it too, right in the same place i did

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

[skitter30]

Karnage, I hope that you'll be able to devote more time towards the game now?

Gonna try

karnage do u have some reads you'd care to share?

[skitter30]

... it's day2 and we've had flips already
i'm kinda not sure how you don't have any reads at this point ...

[skitter30]

I think the cop should investigate who they want and just crumb the results.

his having an opinion on this ^

I don't think that I will need to.

this was the big one ^

I'm worried under a hypocop mafia may be able to find the real TA too easily. If anyone hypoclaims a wrong result, mafia knows it's not them. If anyone changes a read on someone they had hypocopped, mafia knows it's not them. I think the TA should just breadcrumb instead.

and just generally piping in with opinions regarding what ta ought to do when getting content out of his was tricky

[skitter30]

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

so that we wouldn't be having this conversation ....
and even with the cop-bloc we were having wagons earlier on in the day, i could vote someone without ultimately ending up on the lynch wagon

[skitter30]

this was the big one ^

gl saw this one too right there i'm like 97% sure
his pivot away from allo (i.e. how town!allo forced him to reconsider his reads and reframe his understanding of the gamestae was townie), that's where my townread on him came from

[skitter30]

What was this obvious crumb, Skitter?

also it wasn't a crumb, more a soft
i don't think it was intentional on his end

[skitter30]

1. Whether there was something else that made it obvious. Skitter said GL "likely" saw it, when GL blatantly responded to it with "better not be what I think it is" after that statement - a little fishy

i'm not following, what do you think is fishy there?

[skitter30]

Uh I don’t think you’re understanding my question.

Wouldn’t scum who saw the soft just let the wagon go so they can use the NK? What need is there to force a claim?

i mean they could have made the reasoning for the nk obvious by forcing allo to get run up and then forcing him to claim
and also it would have been a pretty easy to substantiate the guess without much drawback to it, it's not like anybody would have questioned allo being forced to claim really

[skitter30]

Theory question: would scum always go for a NL over ML? Like, is it better for them to have town!nom lynched D1 or no lynch at all?

- Smarter

... always go for a mislynch, it doesn't really help scum to put themselves on evens

[skitter30]

1. Looks a little fake

ok, in what way is it fake?

[skitter30]

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

that is a ... remarkably backwards way of looking at acryon's vote there

also have you two discussed the flip at all together?

[skitter30]

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

no? nom was a mislynch so why would scum switch at that point ...
it was a few hours before deadline iirc and i dont' think allo was viable at that point; allo could and should have been pushed earlier if that was what scum were trying to do

[skitter30]

i wouldn't object to wagoning him to pressure him but i'm kinda getting the vibe that he just doesn't check the game that often so i'm not sure how much that would accomplish

[skitter30]

indeed

[skitter30]

Hi why has this game all but died ...

[skitter30]

I know it isn't. Don't think I necessarily need a vote to make my pushes , but yeah I'll be more active in a while.

I think {Acryon, Eve, Karnage, 1/0} are all town.
Molla is also town.
GL, perhaps.

PoE of {Skitter, Rex} then.

hi
talk to me about your reads on eve and molla

[skitter30]

Guilty and Auro are probably town

skitter is a little off and my only scum impression

do tell

also i like the inspire confidence images/gifs!

[skitter30]

Karnage I just had a gut-town read on and there frankly just hasn't been enough content to move the needle for me.

ok so let's talk about this
can you point to where you got the gutread from
cuz frankly i think everything that karnage has failed to do from like mid-day1 outweighs the fact that his early day-1 was kinda townie

[skitter30]

I know it isn't. Don't think I necessarily need a vote to make my pushes , but yeah I'll be more active in a while.

I think {Acryon, Eve, Karnage, 1/0} are all town.
Molla is also town.
GL, perhaps.

PoE of {Skitter, Rex} then.

hi
talk to me about your reads on eve and molla

also karnage, i somehow missed you putting him there

[skitter30]

also saus is honestly probably going to get replaced at this point, and he's pretty clearly not reading the game
putting votes on him feels like a bit of a waste @acryon @bbmolla

[skitter30]

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

no? nom was a mislynch so why would scum switch at that point ...
it was a few hours before deadline iirc and i dont' think allo was viable at that point; allo could and should have been pushed earlier if that was what scum were trying to do

@smarter, did you not see this?

[skitter30]

VOTE: karnage

Are you scumreading Karnage?

You basically didn't mention him after your pressure vote yesterday and now presumably he is your strongest scumread, can you explain your progression there?

- Smarter

he's doing practically nothing and seems content to float and be prodded to give haphazard reads and doesn't, like, do anything with them
basically had no real push/influence/care about the end-of-day lynch yesterday
the gamestate feels dead and like scum aren't doing anything and karnage kinda fits that picture
weird interactions with nom

[skitter30]

Doesn't Sauce fit a lot of this picture too?

i guess ...
i kinda felt like his whole reaction to limit pushing 'but you trying not to lynch allo is scummy !!!' thing was townie tho

[skitter30]

@mod: I'm sorry but I would like to replace out

sorry to see you go karnage

[skitter30]

Karnage is locktown now.

it's literally nai, no