Mini Theme 2172: Great Idea Mafia - Game Over

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Rawr!

Catching up later today but consider me vla for thé next week

Irl stuff

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ngl i haven't read yet and i probably won't until next week

unexpected but it is what it is

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who thinks i'm scum for this?

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rawr!
catching up today

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So uh

It kind of feels like the day is winding down. I was hoping Herta would convince us to move the wagon but it looks like he won’t.

I don’t know what to do except wait for the prods/replacements to catch up. I’m still willing to hammer herta if it comes to it but I’d like to hear from ico and assemble before that happens.

I don’t have an opinion on shelly v. Noraa, but yikes. Look at shelly’s record and she might make a good policy elim.

I feel like I’ll know more after a flip, and night actions start flying. That will allow us at least to count the scum factions, maybe

scumposting 101

the comment about day ending and 'hoping' herta would do stuff but didn't… feels empty
threatening with a hammer is like asking for permission, and setting up for a misflip

if ranny ever flips scum with herta alive, herta is town

the fencesit post 'i have no opinion on noraa v shelly but shelly is a good flip' is yikes indeed

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Titus and EV are town upon a Ranny scumflip as well

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Someone asked for my reads list. Here goes

Rannygazoo - Weak lean town. I can see both sides getting frustrated by the smartass comments I did but my gut says town.
Herta - Easily picked on town.
redcardinal - At least scumhunting. No interest in executing here today.
shellyc - Scummy. Her explanation for voting Herta while pushing Rangy seems scummy and an attempt to dodge VCA or take responsibility for her push later. She wants town to mislynch for her. VOTE: shellyc
iamausername - Same as redcardinal.
Titus - A perfect angel
Primate - I like what he's posted but I'd like to see him more.
Wiyvern* arachnidsGrip - Lurking. Would compromise hrre.
Iconeum* - Same as Wiyvern.
Assemblerotws* - Same as Wivern.
NoPowerOverMe - Same as Primate.
EchoVision - Same as redcardinal.
Noraa - Pretty obvtown.

i've got shelly v randy in reverse here
what makes you townlean there after the 'reaction to your move'?

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now talk to me please :p

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Ico can you give a read list?

That's a pretty weak catch-up after a week of nothing

i'm not sure why you'd expect something stronger of me in the first place

i'm very much a real-time player and catch ups are really not my thing

the amount of times i've been quick-executed after such a catchup (as town) is way too damn high

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i've only just started playing *this* game, due to bad timing irl and that's partly my fault

but on day 1 i've got a pretty decent scumread and a couple townreads after reading so it's actually pretty good imo

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That's an awfully big post to not make much conclusions in, Primate

A rep out isn't NAI but you'll regard it as such nontheless because META?
Generic statement about Herta
'Redcardinal was scummy but isn't anymore'
'IAAUN good vibes' into a null read?

What about the vendor claim do you consider bad? You said it yourself, it's a proveable action so the claim is probably legit.
You came to that conclusion. So why do you jump to a scumread on someone who claimed their role while they were on L-1 (not actually, but they believed they were which is what counts)

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VOTE: primate

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VOTE: Rannygazoo

naked vote on NPOM in the midst of discussion surrounding his claim is scummy. explain yourself.

Agree.

VOTE: Rannygazoo

The deck has a few interesting quirks in the kind of setups it comes out with, it's worth looking at the role list and thinking what implications that has on the kind of scum arrangements you're likely to see in a game.

is the scumread literally just this?

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that is indeed a full misinterpretation on my end

i don't get how you come to a scum role with his claim, as it's equally likely to come from town and scum?

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UNVOTE:
fair enough

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i finished rereading, and don't have any earth-shattering new revelations to offer, but i did spot further evidence that Ranny is scum that i don't think anyone has pointed out yet.

456: Ranny votes Titus for 'jesting'.
489: Ranny complains that people aren't scumreading Titus for doing a scummy thing that he himself did, and was scumread for.
(this is scummy in itself for the reaosns outlined by Primate in 490.)
492: Ranny cunningly talks his way around Primate's point: he didn't say that particular Titus post is

scummy

, he just doesn't understand why other people don't think it is.
498: he clarifies: "I am not scumreading Titus for that post.

I am scumreading Titus strictly for other reasons.

"
539:

"I didn’t even vote you [Titus] because I thought you were scum."

ok i actually didn't need to post all of that buildup, but Primate made a good point there and i wanted to remind people. anyway, Ranny can't even remember if he scumreads Titus or not. this is not a real read.

something felt off with Noraa from my reread too, might look at her iso and see if i can pin down what it is that's bothering me.

This is basically usernames only post and it reads so fake, I wish people would consider eliming here today. Look through his iso it's 75% setup, 0% scum hunting

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This is basically usernames only post and it reads so fake, I wish people would consider eliming here today. Look through his iso it's 75% setup, 0% scum hunting

i have a hot take

not all town will hard effort scumhunt on day 1

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i bet if i read thru all iso's right now, i can point to at least a handfull of players that haven't efforted in scumhunting (yet)

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i don't blame you for not townreading the slot over this, because scum can easily fake/be doing this as well

but an actual scumread? no

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Including yourself. I guess we will all just sit back and do nothing then and hope we aren't in one of those setups where a miselim on day 1 means we probably lose

there's a solid piece of ground inbetween real hardcore scumhunting and doing nothing...

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i don't blame you for not townreading the slot over this, because scum can easily fake/be doing this as well

but an actual scumread? no

Low posting rates and look busy posts are scum tells

another hot take

they could also be a sign of someone who's… busy

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i've rarely successfully caught scum on day 1, and the times i've seen scum get caught on day 1 and flipped was mostly due to luck

tho someone like kuribo… yeah

there's exceptions

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if by caught you mean you said post-game 'look see, i told you see, i was right' and didn't get the actual flip on day 1, yeah sure

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all i'm trying to do here is show you why i don't scumread iaaun

he had some good takes and a good opening imo, and while that readslist you quoted ain't the shining beacon of towniness, it's also not scumpinging me

he used it to solidify and extend his scumread, after a ketchup

you say he hasn't been scumhunting, i disagree

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i believe primate's vote was terrible, but maybe not scum

still, i got pinged by it

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Ranny is looking a lot worse, and that Titus readslist was worse imo

tho that's not to be taken judgementall, it's too early for a good readslist

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anything in particular you want me to see, because i'm not reading 3 games from 2016...

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hi noraa

are you scumreading me yet?

hey titus

we meet again

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VOTE: plusjoy

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Also @ico, told you we could get scum day 1, see it's easy

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obviously i simply didn't want a scum exe

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Rannygazoo*

- IC

Herta

- not mafia. his vote was pretty pivotal in turning momentum to Italiano, and he had every reason to vote for me if he wanted to. could still be werewolf or whatever, his scumminess from early D1 remains, but i'm not particularly interested in pursuing that today.

redcardinal

- 100% not mafia, and like 99% town. she was clearly invested in securing a correct execution yesterday.

Primate*

- mafia.

PlusJOYED

Wiyvern

arachnidsGrip

- who the hell knows. claimed a useless role, acts like a useless player, could be scum trying to dodge crosskills, could just be an actual useless player. an extremely valid vote.

Iconeum*

- i've liked what i've seen from him, but could certainly stand to see more.

MURDERCAT

Assemblerotws

- probtown for the same reasons as redcardinal. unlike her, he was on the wrong side, but he clearly cared, and specifically clearly cared before Italiano was even on the table.

NoPowerOverMe

- like PlusJOYED but less useless. not mafia because if he's scum, he's a werewolf gravedigger.

EchoVision

- the main thing i remember about Echo is Primate declaring him obvtown for no apparent reason, he's been super null to me. he did vote for Italiano, though. like, i know bussing exists, but i feel like not in this setup, and especially not on a wagon that grew from actual nothing in the last 24 hours of the day.

that's where i'm at rn.

ngl, i think it's a stretch to be liking me this game
even I can't remember anything memorable i've done so far

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there is hope

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VOTE: +joy

how you like them apples

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I'm still kinda suss on username tbh

same

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hi +joy how u

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btw ur at L-1 so is there anything you wanna say?

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+joy already did claim iirc

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shoot

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more concerned with Joy's need and desire to end the day when they just joined the game

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which was also a noraa read so i feel extremely confident in it

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hi noraa

are you scumreading me yet?

hey titus

we meet again

lol scum teams said fuck your greetings i guess
interesting

you got me

it's a thing i do as scum

i greet the players (yeah, multitude) that i'm gonna kill during the night

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just been solely pushing + and + seems very lhf and a very low effort elim
not a fan

i'm not gonna pretend that i'm pouring a ton of effort into this game, but +joy is still probably scum so...

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so ehh

who is townreading plusjoy exactly and why?

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Yep scumreading plus is so anti town!

wdym NPOW?

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i've played with you before NPOW

last time you made little sense was when you were scum :p

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so the plusjoy wagon just dies because ??

otoh, i don't think redcardinal is gonna flip green so...

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@Iconeum I was talking about Ranny not me, so what does your comment have to say about ranny?

I was actually widely town read in the game I played with you iirc until the scum team imploded at the end of the game, so I must have made some sense.

No, you had a Guardian Angel in the form of a town player who was nearly betting their life on you being town. I could only get you flipped after I took complete control of the gamestate.

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iso me yesterday and see what I said about italiano

it's probably multiball so?

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i just like to bring that up

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and i kinda got a little of the evasive vibe i got from scum!you that game as well, though granted as you say that was late game and you did have quite some towncredit earlier on

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weekend vla

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Fuck it.

VOTE: Primate

I hate wasting an elim here but we can't really get around it looking long term.

and eat another 2 nightkills?

no thanks

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I protest the massclaim I don't think two players make a majority.

i think going against massclaim today is actually scummy

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i need to check my role pm for the exact name but i can't be shot by SK's

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i claim retired marine

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suggestion?

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i wanna go NPOW but what do you think

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right npow already claimed

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maybe herta

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Popcorn to Herta

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except it's not a fake claim lol

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that's like saying 'vt' is a safe fake claim

wtf

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We started massclaim, we are finishing it

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There's no point in doing this unless intention is to go all the way trhu

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i don't really feel like offing a claimed survivor right now

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Otoh, there exists a path to victory with a claimed survivor alive. And there isn't one with scum alive.

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it's a shitty situation

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7 alive with 1 claimed survivor

assume we flip that and it's indeed a survivor

worst case scenario we wake up with another 2 dead town which brings this to

4 player alive with 2 scum factions

i don't see how that's a favorable scenario?

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7 alive, 1 claimed survivor

if we hit a scum faction, there's a chance there is 1 less NK

so we wake up, worst case, with 1 dead town. Which brings this to

1 survivor,
1-2 scum?
3 town?

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6 out of 13 players are dead, 5 flipped town

how is this not a shitty situation

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kubayaaaa

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can someone give me a sitrep?

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for the target selection response?

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The problem echo is that if you are scum and I die you get to say whoops sorry doc'd myself. So commit to docing me so that you die and we win the game tomorrow. Because if I die you aren't conf town tomorrow

negative

docs are not allowed self-protect in norma-

wait

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and you claim to have doc'd MC twice in a row?

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The standard (and only Normal) version of a Doctor cannot target themself

its a theme so not bound by normal regulations

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i can buy the doc claim

i can buy you targeting Murdercat

i can even buy you can self-target

but all of this un-gated? As 'proven' by your claim of having targeted MC twice in a row?

hmmmmm

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how fucking strong is an un-gated doc that's allowed self protection?

not to mention how game-throwing it is to not self-target each and every night

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the doc claim has to be bullshitting

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In Theme games, the interaction between a Mafia Doctor and a Gunsmith may be different, and is typically driven by the game's flavour. Similarly, the exact list of types of kill that a Doctor can stop will often be flavour-driven in these games; an unusual type of kill might or might not be considered eligible for Doctor protection. For types of kill for which a Doctor is insufficient, sometimes specialised Doctor variants are introduced to stop them, e.g. a Firefighter or Poison Doctor.

There are numerous minor (but nonstandard) variations of the Doctor, e.g. some Doctors can self-target, some can stop more than one kill in the same Night, and some variant Doctors will inform the Doctor and/or their target if a protection stops a kill. These variations are not Normal, and should typically be mentioned in the player's Role PM so that they do not come to false conclusions about how their role works.

It is common for Doctors (especially those which can self-target) to have a targeting restriction, to prevent them saving the same player (especially the same power role) repeatedly. Nowadays, these restrictions often expressed in the form of a role modifier; modifiers that can break up Doctor combos include Non-Consecutive Night, Indecisive, Roaming, and Simple

. In the past, Percentage was also sometimes used for this purpose (creating a role known as the Faith Healer), but roles with random aspects are normally frowned upon nowadays.

Like I said, because this isn't strictly a norma game, self targeting might be a thing but it's gonna be accompanied by a restriction because of the otherwise sheer overpowerdness of it

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that's from the mod-provided role list in the OP, first doctor link

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it's not about docs being able to self-protect, because as evidence shows it's entirely possible

the problem is that the doc didn't claim a modifier, and went as far as saying they defacto have no modifier by claiming consecutive night actions on the same player

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again, i don't think the issue is that the doc can self protect

the issue is that i refuse to believe a mod would throw in a doc that is able to self-protect without restrictions

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This is an open setup. The mod isn't going to randomly throw in an every other night doc to keep us on our toes. The only real justification of a self protecting doc is that it's enough of a standard way of doing things that the mod thinks it's an acceptable "standard" pick.

and as my wiki quote just proved: the acceptable standard of including a self-healing doc would be to implement some kind of restriction/modifier

which apparently there isn't

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anyway, i have PMd the mod to ask if a hypothetical doctor would be able to self-protect, and since this is an open setup, i see no reason why this wouldn't be answered.

i expect that if Echo was scum he would have done the same before claiming to be a doc that could self protect, but i guess maybe he thought that was standard until people started questioning it

i expect that a doc that can self-heal would be informed in their role pm (because it not being normal), and apparently they had to check with the mod to know this so??

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how fucking strong is an un-gated doc that's allowed self protection?

not to mention how game-throwing it is to not self-target each and every night

is a bulletproof townie really that strong though

i mean, it's not like he's vengeful too

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i'm just gonna sit back with a huge grin on my face now

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also i think the answer is yes, a townie that can protect itself and others ungated is rather strong

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ungated = you have no restriction on using your power

a restriction could be 'even night only' or 'not allowed to doc someone twice in a row'

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EV i've got a terrible gut feeling about your role and claim and how ur going about it but i'm not gonna press you on stuff like this

especially when it comes to mod confirmations or not, content of role pm's, wordings etc

as bad as my feeling is that it just sounds like not something that would be in *any* game

i have no legit reasons to push you over it...

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gg

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mason chat was amazing read

would recommend