Mini 2241: The Neighborhood -- ENDGAME

[Kazyan]

Mr. Rogers I want out of here

VOTE: Kazyan

[Kazyan]

VOTE: Pooky

Recruit me

[Kazyan]

Whatever you're smoking Kaz can you pass that over?

I crushed up an Oreo and lit it on fire with a playing card

The flavor of Oreo doesn't matter but it works best if you use a 10 of diamonds

[Kazyan]

(It's actually probably the sleep deprivation talking, because my cat has a personal vendetta against my sleep schedule)

[Kazyan]

Teeny tiny townping from Megazumarill btw

[Kazyan]

Real talk, is this an actual scumtell for Pooky? I kinda have awful reads on him historically, so I wanna know.

[Kazyan]

Pooky, does unwnd do this as scum? By 'this' I mean jump out with an accusation. I had one scumgame with unwnd before, but he was a replace-in.

[Kazyan]

Here:

I honestly don't know why you're asking this

Last time you claimed you were cult you were scum

Actually both of those games you claimed cult you were scum if I think about it

This is more of an accusation than an implication but I was picking up what unwnd was putting down, here. I might have read too much into this because I saw your post #30 during a preview and speed-read it as another post from unwnd

[Kazyan]

Teeny tiny townping from Megazumarill btw

Why? I get the opposite vibe.

The question is pretty passive.

It felt like the way town would react to seeing Pooky for the first time off-the-cuff; I'd think scum would come at Pooky more seriously simply due to sheer confusion, because scum tries to blend in and a room is hard to read when there's a bear breakdancing in the middle of it

[Kazyan]

I mean... maybe?

Flash reads of players admittedly isn't my strong suit (I have precious few of those, unfortunately), but I'm trying to learn.

+town for wanting to solve, but holy crap don't try to learn from me. I'm generally okay at townreads, but really really bad at scumreads.

If pooky wants to loltroll and eventually got boxed in by people being townier than him then like

He's doing the job for me?

...What?

[Kazyan]

Townlean

:
House (desire to solve)
Megazumarill (Pooky reaction)

Null

:
Pooky
Everyone else

Who are you people?

:
Gork
Navi
Wake88

I'm Particularly Confused About

:
unwnd (I'm not digging the 'I don't care' vibe, but I'm also getting flashbacks to T3's replace-out in Not Quite Normal Multiball where the scummy thing really was just a joke)

Scumlean

:
Loftwing (both posts feel stiff. P-EDIT: Three posts now, but you know what I mean)

[Kazyan]

I can do whatever I want, baby

[Kazyan]

I'll take that as a sign that I need to go to bed already.

[Kazyan]

Sorry to unwnd (and all other relevant parties) for making things uncomfortable last night. I'm feeling a lot better today.

VOTE: Gorkington, I think? The vote on unwnd looks opportunistic.

Don't worry, it's on the House

(On the house usually refers to something paid for by the establishment providing the service, usually beer from a bar.
Also, your name is House!)

This post is so pure. I want this to not have any nefarious intent but aaaaa

[Kazyan]

It looked like you were pushing the wagon along without having a reason to do so, just a repeat of the RVS vote

[Kazyan]

I guess nothing, but it seemed like a scummy way to do it

[Kazyan]

I think I'm talking myself out of this, since unwnd is ???? here too

[Kazyan]

Nothing's wrong with it but it's scummy? How so?

Nothing wrong with pushing a wagon in general, but if you do it with a naked vote that says "kill", it looks dishonest

[Kazyan]

unwnd, what do you mean by what you know of me? This is a pretty typical Day 1 for me tbh. Life if you could clear that up that would be great, but I think it comes from town mindset; scum have a lot more to keep track of and meta should be harder for them to invoke.

I think I'm losing paranoia in Loftwing. There's a low-key derptell in these two posts below where Loftwing repeatedly doesn't know what's going on with unwnd, and I feel like scum would have paid attention to that. I don't think it's performative; 201 is answering a minor callout with giving it more ammunition.

unwnd surely you've seen people make pre-emptive reads lists before?

what specifically is bothering you about them

what conclusions do you draw from these posts being out of place and pre-emptive

They don't feel earned or really have a lot of thought put into them. I maintain about what I said about Kaz and got the completely opposite opinion Navi did lol

Are there any particular readlists that you don't like right now?

Why is Kazyan evil?

Well, you see, Kazyan rolled scum this game.

I would like their question answered. I did not see much of why KrazyArt is being voted.

[Kazyan]

Did anyone catch that Dann and Gork had two different 'after you' kind of interactions

I'm not gonna say what I think that means but I have an idea

[Kazyan]

UNVOTE: Gorkington

[Kazyan]

Based on how quickly the wagon formed on me and the deal with Gork and Dann, there's maybe one scum on my wagon? VOTE: House?

[Kazyan]

Everyone does tunneling/confbias shit tbh

[Kazyan]

A poorly explained vote is better than a stab in the dark vote.

Wanna give it another shot?

Just for this snideness, no, I'm not gonna elaborate.

[Kazyan]

I mean, if you say "I'm deliberately going to use a different playstyle than my usual way of being town and it's all going according to plan if I get voted", I kind of have to vote for you because that's the exact ass-covering that I used in my one scumgame.

[Kazyan]

I mean, if you say "I'm deliberately going to use a different playstyle than my usual way of being town and it's all going according to plan if I get voted", I kind of have to vote for you because that's the exact ass-covering that I used in my one scumgame.

which post/posts are you referring to here?

Here ya go:

[...]

I'm intentionally changing my style by experimenting to see which parts of my old play I can keep and which parts are best for both myself and the health of the game state for me to change, so I fully expect to catch votes & mislims while I develop "the new me".

[Kazyan]

did you miss that he'd mentioned that he was intentionally switching his playstyle up this game before?

yes

[Kazyan]

House, do you have an opinion on Pooky?

There's something I'm seeing but I don't think anyone else is seeing it

[Kazyan]

Every game with Pooky and unwnd involves them joking around mock-accusatorially with each other for the first 1d20+3 pages

[Kazyan]

Alright, well. I think Pooky's posts from 239 to 269 are an attempt at buddying House; noting how Pooky isn't trying to convince anyone else, he's just insisting that House specifically accepts this townread. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth here...

Very rude of you to give me attention Dann and then vote the person I was hinting that I was sussing.

lol this is so s/s

...by following up with this:

if kaz flips scum i'm willing to kill either of wake/unwnd next

This seems like Pooky doesn't have any reads and is just trying to get someone, pretty much anyone, killed--and there's obvious hedging in grouping Wake and unwnd together. I low-key think he could be a serial killer. VOTE: Pooky

[Kazyan]

I look evil on Day 1 in every game; you'll get used to it

[Kazyan]

I'm kinda happy that everyone's getting my screenname right so far, typos excluded because they're just typos. Some people swap the middle two letters and say "Kayzan".

[Kazyan]

I look evil on Day 1 in every game; you'll get used to it

...No?

Dude,

yes

. Maybe I'm not desensitized enough yet, but the only completed game where I didn't catch a lot of flak was the Mars game in the Newbie queue, and that's only because Pooky ate a lolhammer while two people were loudly death-tunneling each other.

[Kazyan]

Based on how quickly the wagon formed on me and the deal with Gork and Dann, there's maybe one scum on my wagon? VOTE: House?

can you connect these two statements together a little more for me? I'm not quite seeing how you're drawing the conclusion of "maybe one scum" from the former observations

Not doing myself any favors here, but I thought "wow, that was fast. Surely someone is just jumping on it for me-too points", and besides you and Gork, the only other two people were House and Meg

[Kazyan]

I'm kinda happy that everyone's getting my screenname right so far, typos excluded because they're just typos. Some people swap the middle two letters and say "Kayzan".

Do you mind if I keep calling you KrazyArt

I see the Z and the Y in the correct order and I am happy

[Kazyan]

Are we not going to talk about Pooky's shade distribution outlet though

[Kazyan]

Are you actually claiming SK to clear yourself against a Day 1 yeet

Because I can see a few problems with that

[Kazyan]

You can't just do SK things and then say "CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS" when someone brings up that you look SK, come on

[Kazyan]

Why would you not vote for the person who you think is Mafia

Like I think Pooky would do this even as town (I still think he's SK/delighting in being the villain; nice crumb), but Dann?

[Kazyan]

Because the SK is a stronger read, and I dunno if you've noticed, but this is a Mini. The dead townie budget is pretty small

[Kazyan]

Dude he's gonna shoot

me

, not mafia

[Kazyan]

I'd buy the story about god-scumhunter Pooky killing all the scum for us and then dying, but he's tunneled on me so that's clearly not what's happening here

[Kazyan]

I don't buy this.

It's day 1. How do you differentiate group!scum from solo!scum?

Planting shade so indiscriminately on everyone and anyone, basically, which means he doesn't care who dies, just

someone

. I guess he could be a Survivor?

[Kazyan]

kaz is probably an end of day kinda wagon and people want to do the whole think we can sort the entire playerlist D1, get to page 100 and hate ourselves thing.
which like yeah fair, been there and done that for seven years of mafia.

I'm not gonna be the elimination. A whole bunch of people flashwagoned me, threw everything they had into nitpicking every single post, suddenly realized that no one else was buying it, and then everyone gave awkward excuses for switching to [spins bottle] Dwlee. You can't do a blatantly scum-driven wagon like that twice in one day phase but that's none of my business

[Kazyan]

This would be a way to read the people on my wagon but no one has actually given a reason for voting me other than the worst except for pressure/fun

Really makes you think, doesn't it

[Kazyan]

You can't do a blatantly scum-driven wagon like that twice in one day phase but that's none of my business

is there a reason youre being non specific with who is doing all of these things[...]

Yes, actually. I can't say what my thoughts are outright, but I suspect the late votes more than the early votes.

[Kazyan]

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense, so I'm going to formally exclude Gork and Dann from what I said

[Kazyan]

Why would you not vote for the person who you think is Mafia

Like I think Pooky would do this even as town (I still think he's SK/delighting in being the villain; nice crumb), but Dann?

vote people you're null on so they panic and start making alignment tells

let's say you've found sk pooky. what are the rest of your reads - e.g. townreads?

Too lazy to do my usual readslist format, but Loftwing is pretty high up there (I dunno if you can fake that amount of daydreaming). I liked your entrance, particularly the "I hate my life" reaction to the softball questions. List looks something like:

Loftwing
the worst
unwnd? (had a pretty well-thought out read on me; it's the others who were dogpiling and feigning indignity)
Dwlee?

NULL/LITERALLY WHO: Lurkers
CONFUSED ABOUT: Dann and Gork

House (P-Edit: oof)
Pooky

[Kazyan]

House was part of the flashwagon + constant pecking that looked like a call to rally townies against the easy Day 1 miselim, but looking at the vote count, I see that House never left my wagon during the initial pivot to Dwlee. So I'd be tempted to move him back up to null if he didn't just urge us to "just hammer" without a claim while a replacement is pending.

[Kazyan]

I sure do love to see people sheeping Pooky's cries of "partner!" when I townread someone and "OMGUS!" when I don't. FFS this game is so scum-led it hurts. Do you guys have any reads that aren't related to me?

[Kazyan]

You're good; I'm more talking to the Pooky fan club.

[Kazyan]

b) i have lots of reads i just dont share them for free

How am I supposed to take this seriously

c) again with the indirect "all the people scumreading me are mafia but im not willing to commit to it bit by actually calling specific people mafia"-bit.

Since you won't shut up about this, fine. I think you and Dann are masons. You were moving in lockstep but I saw you two do it in reverse orders, and that makes me think you can communicate on the side. But I'm just baffled that everyone does whatever it is that Pooky wants them to do because...I don't know, scumhunter-god Pooky, but I know he's full of shit because he's yelling at me even though there's green in my role PM and then he just goes "lol let's kill this random lurker" and everyone is like "yes, that is a good idea!" and like, I'm pretty sure House has bad intent but then people like Meg and Murdercat just shrung and go along for the ride. Are they town? Are they just scum? Am I wrong about him being SK and he's just Mafia? None of the answers to these questions help me because Pooky can do whatever he wants in this game and people's reads spontaneously line up with his for no clear reason that I can discern. The only thing I can think of is that I'm just getting that much worse at Day 1 the more games I play in.

to expand on c) it feels like literally every read that kaz is pushing in this game is based on a bit.
house was town because trying to solve.
loftwing is town because aloof and daydreaming.

house is mafia because of the gimmick thing.
pooky is serial killer because he "softed it".
people pushing them are mafia because theyre pushing him and mafia is strongarming the game.

all of these are concepts that seem plausible, but do you actually really believe that kaz believes them if you actually sit and think about how reads are genuinely formed?
idk im probably not conveying it well but it just seems really obvious to me >_>

That's not why I think he's a serial killer

I have told people my actual reason for it twice

and you're saying I'm mafia

because I'm telling you the reasons for my reads I fucking

I'm about to tilt out my fucking chair here

[Kazyan]

I think you and Dann are masons. You were moving in lockstep but I saw you two do it in reverse orders, and that makes me think you can communicate on the side.

why was this your inclination rather than that dannflor and i are coordinating in a scum pt

Because it just was, okay

[Kazyan]

also why would you out a mason read if you're town rofl

Did I not hint enough until people yelled at me until

no

fuck this I need a moment so that I don't get absolutely toxic

[Kazyan]

idk even if i think kazyan is really likely to be mafia and im not necessarily being mean i am a little on edge about making the game entirely unpleasant for them.
how does one reconcile not making someone feel bad and trying to lim them zzzzz

You could convince other people to vote for me

Your conversation has been entirely directed at me instead of the others who you actually need in order to eliminate me

If I flip I don't have to be emotionally invested anmyore

[Kazyan]

I'm trying to read Gamma's entrance, but my eyes glaze over red when I see "bless your heart", so I'm going to leave that spot at null until I get another night's sleep

I think unwnd's laid-back kind of play right now is legit; it doesn't seem like unwnd's reads are forced, but rather that he's letting them percolate. There are gut feelings visible on display with sorting the low-activity players.

[Kazyan]

and tbh I'm not feeling as good about kaz's posts on this page

Yeah I know, my post sucked, but I'm too drained of emotional energy right now. There was a state audit at work today and stuff.

Dann's partial solve is just so

out there

that I don't know what to make of it. I'm gonna assume it's town. Gork? You feeling that, or are me and Worst still in there somewhere?

[Kazyan]

did you miss that he'd mentioned that he was intentionally switching his playstyle up this game before?

yes

does that change your thinking at all

It does not; he's still using the same excuse I did in my one scumgame for being noticeably different.

[Kazyan]

the fact kaz did it apropos of nothing is probably a sign he's just giving unfiltered thoughts, [...]

I'm probably gonna put my filter back on for the next game I'm in, or later in this one, or now

I've been trying to correct my crappy Day 1 play (iI know you think I was fine in That Time I Shot You When I Was A Vigilante but it still feels like every second thing I said got a big "??????" response) and well-respected players suggested to unfilter myself in the Newbie queue, because I was getting read as scummy for being stiff and manufactured, but edited posts are how I roll

But now I post without a filter and people learn why the filter is there, and also I rage harder because guess what else happens when you edit a post

[Kazyan]

I just clocked him as newbie queue town? I'll review your case.

[Kazyan]

figuring someone out at elo doesnt really count if you've ridden the entire game in their pocket rofl

It indeed does not.

[Kazyan]

True science fact from the Journal of Mafiology: I'm the only one here who actually wants you dead

[Kazyan]

Going to a wedding this weekend, really don't have the time or the energy to fight the wagon. "He's scummy when he's here" and then you just quote my iso with no real reasoning and people hop on like always. Think I'm retired after this game, me getting run up D1 every game is not fun for anyone.

Mood

The worst is still town, house maybe scum if Navi town but the vote swap seemed too blatant. Meg most likely scum on my wagon. Gamma ??, Still don't believe that read on me is real

VOTE: Navi

Not mood

[Kazyan]

you arent even being run up anymore!

The initial run-up broke me and I have had a hard week

[Kazyan]

I will. I've already taken a reread of Loftwing, at least, and I think I get what Gamma is talking about now. Loftwing's first few posts were so pure to me that I thought "newbtown", but it's not the first few posts of the game anymore. What stands out to me is that, despite dropping a good analysis, it didn't go anywhere. Loftwing didn't seriously push anyone based on it. He's pointing to the analysis in self-defense, but not using it to, like, get scum eliminated.

But seriously the Navi/MC wagons are literally the same thing, just lurker hunts. This is a chaotic game and this is only happening because no one can get anything to stick on anyone

Given that they're so similar, there's probably not an equal amount of scum on both; it would be a waste of votepower

[Kazyan]

I think Navi is like dead null in a large number of reads lists (which is always a good starting place by itself), and I know people are generally more lenient with more cryptic/gimmick style posters as long as they actually post content, but the style of her content is not towny

specifically stuff like #149 and #183 reads like listing off observations until she has met an imagined "solvy" quota. there are no serious questions or direct engagements to other players in any of her posts beyond the #330 case on Pooky which really just exists to justify Navi being able to stick her vote somewhere.

overall, it's a type of posting that is very easy to skim over because it looks relatively towny but it's not really naturally towny? town doesn't naturally deliberately type out every step of their thoughts like in those first two posts I mentioned, it's very deliberate in a way that reads like someone trying to get town read rather than someone sharing some important thoughts they had.

house put it more succinctly than I with "forced tone" I suppose. There is a chance I am misreading this character or gimmick she is doing but I think even considering that there is a decent likelihood this flips red

This is just listing reasons that Navi is being town and tacking on a "this looks towny, but that's why it isn't" sentiment. Hard pass. Pure WIFOM

Gamma has more to say so I can't do a single quote, but the main point seems to be that MC is asking calculated questions in an attempt at manipulation. I think I buy that more than the Navi read, because of the higher skill level on this site, but I'm sorta just taking Gamma's word for it because I look at questions like 92 and 491 and all I see is a question about to cryptic posts. I feel like that's NAI? Unless that's all you do.

[Kazyan]

Oh wait hold on I think I get what Dann is saying now. Yeah, if you're just checking boxes and doing the "spew your entire alibi" scumtell you should probably go to the dead thread without passing Go or collecting 200 dollars

I still want Pooky gone first, though

[Kazyan]

I'll case it.

I saw 232 and then his stuff bout me and Worst/Wake being partners, though admittedly he seems to be actually focusing on the second partial-solve; idk if he's still on the unwnd thing

But he's also obviously wagon-shopping and agreeing to vote some lurkers (KidAmn, Navi, whatever) even though he expresses pretty firm scumreads on me and Worst

I kinda hate most the interaction with House which starts at 237. I know Pooky does this friend routine whenever, but House isn't picking it up, and Pooky like

just keeps going on and on about this

even though he has no one to convince. It reminds me of when a dog is trying to make friends with someone who doesn't like dogs, and will try to get petted over and over and over again; it's like the most buddying thing I've ever seen

[Kazyan]

My SK read is more based on the shotgun-shade conflict between unwnd/Dann and Kazyan/Worst being partners, like he doesn't have anyone to protect or draw attention from, but if he really doesn't care about unwnd/Dann anymore then I have to rethink him as regular scum.

[Kazyan]

Bah whatever Pooky isn't happening

VOTE: Navi

That's

E-1

so a claim would be nice

[Kazyan]

But he's also obviously wagon-shopping and agreeing to vote some lurkers (KidAmn, Navi, whatever) even though he expresses pretty firm scumreads on me and Worst

why is pooky opportunistic SK who doesnt care who dies vs someone who is just trying to shake things to see what falls loose? doesnt SK have incentive to want to find mafia early on in the game?
pooky more or less said that hes not interested in trying to force wagons on who he thinks is mafia because its not worth the effort, do you believe that, or no?

I do not believe that town!Pooky has a hard scumread and isn't interested in voting them out, no--that's like obviously not a thing a good townie does to me, and Pooky is a good townie.

[Kazyan]

is your entire argument that because im not trying to hard shove my solution thru, i must be a bad guy?

Entire? lol how many shots do you have on your X-Shot Spin Doctor role

[Kazyan]

What in world is 'duck town'

Why are my scumreads intentionally doubling down on scum behavior; is that also meta

[Kazyan]

Oh, I thought it was another complaint about the metagame as a whole just like the killing of lurkers

[Kazyan]

There's actually a viable compromise wagon that everyone's sleeping on

[Kazyan]

Yes

But also let's just kill Loftwing

[Kazyan]

VOTE: Loftwing

All aboard; the train has arrived

[Kazyan]

But why would we move off of Mcat/navi? What have they done that pings you as townish, or what has Loftwing done that pings you as scummy?

Bet

So this is extremely old news now, but Loftwing started with basically saying "hold on, I need a moment, I'm not paying attention" and asking redundant questions over and over again, dropped a very checkbox-ticking set of ISO reviews of four players, and then did nothing with those analyses e.g. pushing wagons or evaluating current ones besides getting indignant and saying "look, I did things!" whenever someone sussed him. It looks like being desperate to avoid attention.

But now Lady Lambdadelta is here instead and I'm not sure how much of that matters, since LLD won't be able to answer for her predecessor

[Kazyan]

Was Meg town or scum in that game?

[Kazyan]

The discourse about Gamma was going in circles and I think I like Dwlee stepping onto the podium better.

I did a quick ISO skim. I have roughly 0% confidence in ability to sort Dwlee at this point so you should definitely ignore everything I'm about to say, but I like the sortiness in 577. There's 385 and 388 that make me think that Dwlee is interested in getting clarity, which I guess could be scum but I figure that scum is more interested in riding the waves of chaos than in opening up people's minds like walnuts this early.

The posts between 580 and 1000something make me uneasy

It could be deliberate laziness but I know that Dwlee low-key actually cares a lot when properly challenged and I don't think that they're been properly challenged yet. I don't want to pressure Dwlee now because if we run them up and they're town, scum will just hammer and blame the deadline, when we could do that Day 2 if anyone still cares by that point

[Kazyan]

It does not help xoxo

Conclusion: Dwlee votes are cringe and I like where my vote is

[Kazyan]

Wait, LLD inherited her vote from Loftwing, didn't she

Do I unvote for that? I'm getting confused about how to Bayes here.

[Kazyan]

idk both white flag and this game are making me feel like I just don't have the time anymore. I think most players really underestimate how much activity factors into their reads. I thought if I just played a few games where I was less active people would get used to my new meta but I guess not.

I expressed doubt about Mafia games before joining this site when the buddy who recruited me told me that Day phases could last for up to 3 weeks, and he told me that they did that so that you don't have to spend all of your time every day on one game. Turns out, that's not how it works. Every game I'm in consumes my brain for hours a day for months, and when you play to win, you end up having to eliminate lurkers. I may consider the Geriatric Ruleset if I ever decide to mod a game.

[Kazyan]

Based on how quickly the wagon formed on me and the deal with Gork and Dann, there's maybe one scum on my wagon? VOTE: House?

What do you mean re Gork and Dann and why do you conclude House is the scum?

I don't really understand why this wouldn't be a useful question, nothing is explained in Kaz's post. It's effectively a naked vote.

Right, this was before I went public about what I think about Gork and Dann, so I figured the fast wagon had to have at least some scum propulsion. This left House and Meg, both of which I'd previously townread, so I was confused about picking between the two. I picked House.

[Kazyan]

Gork, Navi claimed Isis. We can't eliminate such a game-relevant PR on Day 1

[Kazyan]

I know; Isis used a post-restricted alt in another game as Brave Heart Lion. I ate a bowl of irony for breakfast this morning and now I'm calling the trees outside my window roleblockers

[Kazyan]

I'm getting my gimmick alts mixed up

VOTE: Navi

[Kazyan]

Dwlee hasn't tilted like this in either of their scumgames that I've been in, for what it's worth. My impression of Dwlee's scumgame is that it's hard to set them off like this and they're just actually a peeved townie

At one point I nailed the scumteam in Mini 2232 and Dwlee didn't care at all

[Kazyan]

You were, but that was on Day 8 after several days of being solo and me turning on you at the last minute

[Kazyan]

It's qualitatively different than raging when you get like two votes on Day 1

[Kazyan]

Is there anything more that would be productive to do today? I feel like emotions are running high and it's time to just pick an elimination.

[Kazyan]

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

[Kazyan]

I want to flip LLD over the other viable wagons here because if LLD flips red, then I think that confirms Worst as town. I am convinced that the argument couldn't have been scum theater, if only because TSQ would have vetoed them when they considered in their PT.

[Kazyan]

I mean like "please don't break Rule 5", not mod-controlled actions

[Kazyan]

I haven't been in games where this has happened. If it's a pants-on-head speculation, then I take the L

[Kazyan]

UNVOTE:

[Kazyan]

One of these days I will understand how Mafia games work

[Kazyan]

Pooky, if I vote for the duck, will you go to bed already

[Kazyan]

This is basically where I am for the possible eliminations.

Dwlee:

No. Still townleaning. I checked Dwlee's ISO for a particular tell that they've done in both of their scumgames that I was in, and I didn't find it even though there were plenty of chances with LLD. I'm not gonna say what it is because then they won't do it for sure

Navi:

Let's do this one tbh. VOTE: Navi. There's a different tell that I've taken the name from Anya, I think--"promising presents and not delivering presents". You say you're gonna do a game-engagement thing and then don't do the game-engagement thing, which is how scum look like they're participating without actually doing so. Navi mentioned trying to catch up and still has still not caught up, without saying anything of substance beyond the "epic smelly" post.

Gork has some similar things to say about not showing the enthusiasm that comes with loosening the shackles of post restriction and basically I'm drinking all of his tea and asking for seconds

MCat:

Third choice. This is a lurk slot. All else being equal, get rid of those, but I look at MC's questions and don't feel any malicious intent. Kill this slot dead if it's still lurking on Day 2 but I don't think an MCat flip would actually tell us about the gamestate on Day 1; everyone else has spewed associations

I can't in good conscience kill a lurkslot for lurking during a V/LA, either

The Worst:

Let's not. Did you read that discussion with unwnd and The Worst, after Pooky stopped spamming? They were vomiting green all over the pavement trying to get into each other's heads.

This is kind of a logically-complicated slot, statistically. TW isn't flipping red here but if she does, LLD is basically clear. If she doesn't then Pooky gets to drink elimination juice tomorrow, and while that would be objectively funny and cool, I'm not going to vote off a big townread just to make that happen

LLD:

Let's do this one if we can't have Navi. If we're going with the out-of-game argument being just that, non-game-related, then it was a big nothingburger of noise that attacked a townread of mine. If this slot flips red, we get a clean duck

and

barbecued bear

[Kazyan]

Remind me to tell you after the game or in the dead thread

[Kazyan]

mmkay we have 36ish hours left, I don't have a cw, votes aren't moving, and I've already kind of hinted it too much. I am not vanilla.

[Kazyan]

It's about 24 hours before the deadline and I'm seeing:

no, you're scum

no, you're scum

no,

you're

scum

no,

you're

scum

NO YOU'RE SCUM

NO YOU'RE SCUM

Both of you put a cork in it and come get on the Navi wagon. LLD, go bus your partner. The Worst, vote to live.

[Kazyan]

It's E-1, by my count.

[Kazyan]

I may have a vague idea of what the deal with The Worst is, considering.

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

[Kazyan]

Lack of kill annoys me

This is a lot better than getting some flip info.

[Kazyan]

Hey Kazyan, have you bothered recalibrating after you participated in kiling Navi who flipped town?

I may have a vague idea of what the deal with The Worst is, considering.

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

mb since u were wrong yesterday and killed a townie you could help me kill this bad guy instead

I do want to sheep today, but I know that's not how you're supposed to play Mafia.

[Kazyan]

I mean, Unwnd, you have zero problems with that Navi compromise wagon over the worst and then people coming in not recalibrating as a result?

Like, it's one thing to blame people for a misread, that happens, but once you're wrong you gotta come in and actively fucking recalibrate.

Like there were people on that wagon calling it bad and sounding like they knew/expected it to flip town despite being ON IT instead of voting the worst.

I thought the wagon was good. Why are you trying to pin begrudging vote behavior on me?

[Kazyan]

I mean, Unwnd, you have zero problems with that Navi compromise wagon over the worst and then people coming in not recalibrating as a result?

Like, it's one thing to blame people for a misread, that happens, but once you're wrong you gotta come in and actively fucking recalibrate.

Like there were people on that wagon calling it bad and sounding like they knew/expected it to flip town despite being ON IT instead of voting the worst.

I thought the wagon was good. Why are you trying to pin begrudging vote behavior on me?

Answer me pls. I'm not buying your 'sheep me' routine if you're just gonna throw shade on me for what other people did

Scum nonsense

[Kazyan]

ur supposed to kill bad guys

thats how you play mafia

nothing is provable tbh that's the fun of mafia! might I consider we kill some scum first and I'll out when it's optimal?

[Kazyan]

LLD isn't responding to my challenge against her shitpush and 2167 and 2169 by Meg are great observations, being both townie and damning. LLD has thrown terrible, terrible shade arguments against multiple people and responds to everything by basically yelling "NOT AN ARGUMENT" over and over because I guess she thinks we don't know what arguments are. Then the blatant Appeal To You Being Clearly An Idiot for anyone who doesn't see why Navi flipping green has nothing to do with her flipping red.

I want LLD gone. She's transparently scummy, and if she's town, she will cast the losing vote in ELo when scum says some nonsense and she declines to read the thread. I still want that delicious confirmation of The Worst being town if she's scum.

[Kazyan]

Y...Yeah. To clarify, I don't think LLD is actually an intellectually dishonest person, just scum.

[Kazyan]

I had a long think. LLD, honestly, you're right about me being a jerk and you saw the worst side of me in that post. Your composure is admirable. I can't promise that I'll be a good person or a good player, I can only promise to try.

I don't know how to evaluate the way that you play, or the way that anyone plays. Your push on Dwlee on Day 1 was to generate content on an ambiguous slot, right? But I only know that because you spelled it out for the thread. Is it a 'shake the town into shape so that they're better at catching the bad guys' strategy?

UNVOTE:

[Kazyan]

Townread

:
Gork (PROTAGONIST OF THE GAME)
Dwlee99 (10-degree tilt for a minute there, literally no agenda, didn't do the scum tell)
Dann (I get good vibes from every post Dann makes; he seems like he's trying to bring order to a chaotic town. I know he's been burned by unwnd's scumgame in a chaotic normal before.)
The Worst (extremely town discussion with unwnd)

Townlean

:
unwnd (extremely town discussion with TW, but I'm generally spooked about the strength of unwnd's scumgame.)

Null

:
LLD (I'm, uh, done having opinions on this slot for a while)

Confu

sed

About

:
Pooky (Obviously not an SK anymore, and has completely dropped the indecision about who to kill. I have a hard time believing that his drunkposting spree could have been done with scum intent, but I need to ask whether this is typical of town!Pooky or not. I haven't seen him like this in his towngame yet, but I've seen him death-tunnel a claimed PR in Dogs Vs. Cats, in which he was mafia.)
House (I can't put my finger on what it is. I feel the towniness, but House has also just sorta been skirting every single discussion since the first few 24-hour days of the game, which I feel like is a good place for scum to hang out in. I also can't help but look at how he was on the only one on a non-viable wagon yesterday and think 'what's up with that'?)

Scumlean

:
MurderCat (This is where my heart wants to vote. I get what he's saying about Meg. I'm also kinda tinfoiling that the no-kill was specifically to kneecap MCat's ability to VCA if that's what he does every game, but I don't know. MCat, do you do VCA in most games?)
Gamma (PoE tbh)

Delet this

:
Meg (Meg has been diffident, wagon-hopping in a way that looks manufactured, and only broke out the actual convincing statements when directly pressured, i.e. saving themselves. The more I think about that "pick scum among these five at random" post, the more I think of it as throwing miselim options at the wall and seeing what sticks.)

-----

The trees I want to shake are the "Confused About" ones.

[Kazyan]

Does MurderCat/Gamma/Meg make sense as a solve? I'm trying to figure out if a Pooky or House swap-in makes more sense than a team that's constantly bussing each other apparently

[Kazyan]

This doesn't feel genuine, at least the part about when I gave my POE post i gave yesterday.

In that post I gave 2 of the lowest other 3 slots on this list (and Navi/Kaz themself)The idea that I am scum and am trying to miseliminate town, but they also think who I am trying to mislim is scum?

It doesn't work logically for something they claim to spend a lot of time thinking about.


Rest of the readlist lines up mostly with my thoughts, ignoring both reads on me/gamma.

Oh. Yeah, I had Gamma at null when organizing my readslist and figured I had to bump someone down a step to get to 3 scumreads. In that context, Meg/MurderCat/Gamma does in fact stop making sense.

[Kazyan]

I like the track Dann is on; can we talk more about Gamma and Meg's interactions? I don't just wanna flip both to figure out what's going on there.

[Kazyan]

VOTE: Gamma (E-1, I think)

I know TSQ doesn't do the "conventional game balance" thing but I'm pretty sure he knows about Follow the Cop.

[Kazyan]

Flipping Kaz proves nothing if he flips green. If he flips red, then cool. Gamma is real and I eat crow. However, if he flips green then Gamma can just go 'see I told you it's unwnd!' but like the same circumstance can happen if you were to eliminate me. It's just a shoddy claim and I kind of(?) get why Dwlee wanted to eliminate outside but yes it is quite useless in the scheme of things.

Agreed

[Kazyan]

I think this is just a sacrifice to break up the townblock.

[Kazyan]

VOTE: No Elimination

This is a cool and good time to spend our No-Lim day, yeah

[Kazyan]

UNVOTE:

There's something I need to think through; there might be a mechanical solve if all of these associatives are correct

[Kazyan]

Ok I was expecting more pages; catching up

like one thing that's really pinging me rn about Kazyan is that after Gamma claimed parity cop, Kazyan has literally said not a word about Unwnd's alignment.

That was going to be what was actually the 'I think I have a mechanical solve' post; I was writing up a thing based on speculations in the scum!unwnd world and the scum!Gamma world, but shelved it because I thought I was onto something for a mechanical solve. I couldn't figure out how to make the associatives go far enough into House/Pooky/MCat/Meg territory, though.

[Kazyan]

Kaz give me a 'why I am not scum and why you still think I'm town' stream of consciousness wall of sorts as I look at NQN.

So that's the thing, I can't actually be sure that you're town; I've been thinking that late-night solving session you had with The Worst reminded me exactly of what northsidegal did in Mini 2187 but I don't have ~mechanical confirmation~ of anything. There was a sort of aloofness you had on Day 1 that made me worry somewhat. But the whole "I have a bad feeling about voting for Kaz here" routine actually indicates to me that you've grown stronger reads as the game progressed and your "I am low-braining this game because I just got done with a hard one" schtick seems to be wearing off naturally as the IRL days go by, right?

It's not that I think specifically that you're town, I just hate the idea of a Parity Cop claim in a Mini where there's an outed protective role and a strong townblock going. It just screams "two free miselims that I can't get otherwise" to me.

[Kazyan]

We're at 3 miselims to midnight and Parity Cop gets two for free

[Kazyan]

Don't worry about my pronouns too much; I actually care more about spelling my username correctly (z before y).

[Kazyan]

yea how is it supposed to even make sense for Kazyan to think No-Elim is a good idea if he's town and he thinks you're town?

I was just thinking 'Gamma hangs himself on his own words if we No Elim, unless I'm wrong, in which case cool', but I didn't stop to do the math on whether it was optimal

[Kazyan]

Kaz If I'm town then Gamma is obviously fake right? Who's their partner?

You're still with that? Why did you choose to no lim? If Gamma is real why let him get another 'result'?

Partners: One in {MurderCat, Meg} and one in {House, Pooky} is my guess. It's probably not Gamma+MCat+Meg because they'd have been all constantly bussing each other this whole game and that's more WIFOM than I'm willing to drink

[Kazyan]

Just because he ended up in this bracket:

Confu

sed

About

:
Pooky (Obviously not an SK anymore, and has completely dropped the indecision about who to kill. I have a hard time believing that his drunkposting spree could have been done with scum intent, but I need to ask whether this is typical of town!Pooky or not. I haven't seen him like this in his towngame yet, but I've seen him death-tunnel a claimed PR in Dogs Vs. Cats, in which he was mafia.)
House (I can't put my finger on what it is. I feel the towniness, but House has also just sorta been skirting every single discussion since the first few 24-hour days of the game, which I feel like is a good place for scum to hang out in. I also can't help but look at how he was on the only one on a non-viable wagon yesterday and think 'what's up with that'?)

It could also be LLD but I don't want to talk about LLD.

[Kazyan]

Could you elaborate your feelings further? Don't worry about cohesiveness. What I'm looking for is if your thoughts are genuine or track based on your own progression.

Pooky is in my PoE because {Gork, Dann, unwnd, Dwlee, TW but I'm starting to tinfoil her} are out. He was opposite alignments in NQN and Dogs Vs. Cats and yet I can't tell you exactly what was different in those games; apparently he was more playful in the town game and I can

sort

of agree? Initially, I thought he was casting shade on way too many wagons and I was a little psyched out by this being a TSQ game, so I wondered how that could have fit, and I remembered that non-Normal games could have third parties. So I said 'this is probably scummy; SK maybe?' and Pooky pretty much flipped. So I locked into that, because it struck a nerve. But then he locked into the TW+unwnd solve and I didn't know what to make of that. Then TW claimed doctor on a day with no deaths. So we have a "this power role is

obviously

fake, a bloo bloo bloo no one is listening to me" routine which is the exact same thing he pulled on Bojack Horseman, Alien Cop. I'm still at the phase where I'm comparing to my past experiences of games and I have to listen to that.

So I'm basically looking at possible people {Meg, MCat, Pooky, House, LLD}, basically in that order from most to least scummy IMO.

Unless Dann is just deepwolfing again.

[Kazyan]

I might have just talked myself into moving him ahead of MCat but you get the idea.

[Kazyan]

VOTE: Megazumarill

Wouild be my vote. I don't really wanna no lim.

I think I need help talking this one out.

OPTION: ELIMINATE MEG

Cons: This is that extra third miselim in the world where unwnd is scum and Meg is town (unlikely world). Pros: eliminates Meg in the Gamma scum world (likely); Meg is a pretty scummy slot, Gamma resolves. Basically wins the game if Meg is scum. Things get, like, super weird if unwnd is scum and Meg is scum but that's probably favorable?

OPTION: NO ELIM

Cons: -1 townie. Pros: Gamm scum world resolves immediately.




I don't wanna YOLO the game on voting Meg, but it seems like it has a better chance of reaching a game-winning position than a losing one.

[Kazyan]

There is scum theater somewhere on this page

I don't know who or where but this feels like a script

[Kazyan]

Okay, I figured it out. Gamma is either going to be painted into a corner tomorrow or not, which means we don't actually have to eliminate within unwnd/Gamma or do No Elimination today. The nightkill is also going to give us independent confirmation of whatever Gamma says--basically, if Gamma is telling the truth, scum

needs

to kill him to avoid getting two confirmed townies or one caught scum. That's either a dead duck (probably) or a dead Gamma tomorrow, if TW is doing some wacky scum gambit (unlikely).

That means if we eliminate within unwnd/Gamma or do No Elimination today, we get the same information tomorrow as if we continued looking for scum elsewhere. The advantage is having a better chance of eliminating scum, but if we pick wrong, we're one sorting-and-eliminating attempt behind compared to voting outside of unwnd/Gamma/No Elim.

I think this makes sense even if you don't have my green role PM; you just put me into some of the possible PoE slots and the logic still works. VOTE: MegAzumarill

[Kazyan]

Is operation no yeet dead?

Not dead, but losing support, I think.

[Kazyan]

There's a guilty on Kaz, if all claims are to be believed, between a parity cop between Unwnd/Kaz and The Worst's town clear on Unwnd via doctor protection.

Remember that Gamma claimed Parity Cop only

after

the protective claim, and at E-1 to boot. If it were claimed beforehand, it wouldn't clearly be an >80% chance to break up the townblock. Free miselim on me and "PoE" miselim on unwnd.

I mean no offence to unwnd here, but you'd have to believe that unwnd is so important to the gamestate on Night 1 that he'd be targeted by the Mafia, a protective, and a Parity Cop all in one night.

[Kazyan]

Remember that Gamma claimed Parity Cop only

after

the protective claim, and at E-1 to boot. If it were claimed beforehand, it wouldn't clearly be an >80% chance to break up the townblock. Free miselim on me and "PoE" miselim on unwnd.

I mean no offence to unwnd here, but you'd have to believe that unwnd is so important to the gamestate on Night 1 that he'd be targeted by the Mafia, a protective, and a Parity Cop all in one night.

I guess we could also be in the {Worst, Unwnd, [not Gamma]} wacky gambit world and I've got that wrong. It would explain why unwnd is backed into the 'I don't want to vote for Kaz' corner, because he'd need to get Gamma -> Kazyan miselimmed before the jig is up on him and duck. I'm trying to rule it out entirely but I can't make it go from "unlikely" to "not a chance", which is really scratching at me

[Kazyan]

Yeah, nah.

I just don't see scum acting about a Mason crumb they've "caught" the way Kazyan did.

I'm actually leaning towards voting unwnd, here. Sue me.

I'm having trouble seeing how unwnd would be your

first

choice in this triangle unless you know something I don't. (don't answer that if it's not relevant)

[Kazyan]

It's the squirrel, isn't it

[Kazyan]

Hey everyone, I'm going to catch up tomorrow morning but looking at the vc I'm down to vote Kaz

No. Read the thread,

then

come up with a reason.

Everyone except for, like, House and Dwlee, think about this for a second. Of

course

the probability math says that you should vote for me in this scenario, because that's exactly the math that Gamma engineered with his choice of claim. It's designed to be that way. That's the thing about mafia: it's adversarial, and you can't just apply naive probabilities, or someone will make a meme claim that gets two miselims and we'll all be making surprised Pikachu faces post-game about how our faulty assumptions made the math lie to us.

Go through it step-by-step. unwnd gets soft-cleared by The Worst.

Then

, Gamma claims Parity Cop at E-1 after supposedly sitting on that guilty for [shrug] reasons! Meanwhile, I'm the person who forcefully steered the wagon off of The Worst at the end of Day 1, after the PR half-of-a-claim. In what world is it town that does what Gamma does? In what world does scum stick their neck out to

stop

a Day 1 PR miselim?

You're being played, and if you look at the reasons people would do the things they've done, you'll see it too.

[Kazyan]

VOTE: No Elimination

[Kazyan]

Good morning

I have a hunch but it depends on what Gamma says

[Kazyan]

Mathing this out, I can't imagine Gamma + The Worst having the cojones to fake an entire Follow the Cop gambit together

This is maybe a forced play for an unwnd + The Worst team (TW's arm was basically twisted into protecting the cop yesterday), so you'd set up unwnd to go down? It would make sense with unwnd distancing from duckie if unwnd flipped red, but I know unwnd is pretty good at distancing so it's hard to speculate here

This makes the most sense in a scum!Gamma world, though, where Gamma just took the free day of not worrying about the protective and just shot someone

[Kazyan]

Can't be scum!unwnd and town!TW, I think; otherwise unwnd basically has to shoot the duck or lose, and gets a better softclear for his trouble

[Kazyan]

i mean, i wasnt inactive because i was worried about being wrong?
i dont really think that concern applies to anyone, and its more likely that people were a little drained on D2 because of gamma's claim and us being uncertain over what we were even doing with the day.
feels kind of similar to the problems in our game in team mafia where its like.. we're not even really playing mafia right now because we're navigating claim stuff instead of game stuff?

its probably wrong to just want to hope that gamma is town and can give us a gamebreaking result here but that kind of feels like what the game is right now, for better or for worse.

I buy this. Navigating claim stuff feels like a different game than the "squint at an ISO and listen to your gut" challenge (very hard).

[Kazyan]

Wow, such shock, very cool. VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I wanted to vote Dwlee because their ISO was shockingly unimpressive and the only thing they've done is state the obvious and be disinterested

Then...why not vote?

[Kazyan]

I'm not seeing what you mean by Dwlee being unimpressive, here.

[Kazyan]

@kazyan

whats your best guess for a 3 person scumteam right now?

@megazu

why do you prefer gamma over kazyan today?

@gamma

on a scale of 1-10 how likely is it that your will does a 180 sometime before deadline of this cycle?

@people dogpiling gamma right now with mostly naked votes

is there a particular reason that youre strongly confident in this being scumGamma vs townGamma and/or why scumGamma wouldnt just fake a result to buy more time?

I'm thinking in two possibilities right now and it's either Gamma/Meg/{House, MurderCat?} or unwnd/The Worst/{Meg, (big ol' gap of likelihood), House, MurderCat}

Gamma feels like the more likely timeline here; I'm really not impressed with the 'no result' claim.

[Kazyan]

I mean, I get it. We've had two eventful day cycles, several claims, someone's leaving squirrels in people's inboxes, and there have still only been two flips. This game feels like a lot

[Kazyan]

♫ I'm that bad type
Make your mama sad type
Make your girlfriend mad tight
Might seduce your dad type
I'm the bad guy
Bah! ♫

[Kazyan]

Pooky sus tho

[Kazyan]

Everyone thought there were three mafia, including the two mafia. Lesson learned.

[Kazyan]

This is also my last game for a while; I'm not gonna be back until after November (National Novel Writing Month), and will probably try to mod a Mini Normal first.