Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Seacore

for murdering me.

[AurorusVox]

And here I was going to

vote: Nobody Special

so I could have one with AV.

you don't know what you're missing :3

aw, shucks

I agree

Vote:Seacore

Seacore, do you often self-vote in RVS?

I'm claiming now because I think I have a better chance of winning with the town than I do with the scum.
It's in your best interest to keep me alive at least until the day before LyLo because I have more of an interest in hunting and killing the scum than you all do.

I can personally go along with this up to a point. It's not an all-access pass to being scummy so it depends how the rest of the game pans out. If you're playing pro-town I won't want to see you lynched anyway.

[AurorusVox]

Doom: I don't think you've thought it through, numberwise.

[AurorusVox]

I was actually talking about you saying that it was fine if he sided with scum because "we could easily vig him" >_>

[AurorusVox]

Don't care as in, you don't want to help Nacho, you don't want to think about whether his claim is legit or not, or you don't think it matters?

[AurorusVox]

Kryptinen; what harm was your vote on PR doing? Why the need to unvote to ask Seacore some questions?

[AurorusVox]

^Lol I noticed that too Seacore but thought you should get the first bite.

Kryp, why is the second vote the one to start the wagon?
Why is the third vote the official wagon vote?
Did you realise Seacore himself was the second vote?

[AurorusVox]

Krypto, can you explain why a vote on no one is better than a random vote on someone?
If you don't like RVS why did you vote at all? Why did you not RQS from the start?

Vote: Kryptinen

[AurorusVox]

^I always forget (3)

Unvote; Seacore
Vote: Kryptinen

[AurorusVox]

^it would seem you do. My vote on Kryptinen wasn't counted the first time around.

[AurorusVox]

Kryptinen, I restate:

Why did you vote at all if you disbelieve in the power of RVs? If they have at least a little power, why did you Unvote?

[AurorusVox]

Glass; why did you answer for Kryptinen? I think she's capable of answering for herself.

[AurorusVox]

@Glass
I really feel its best to let the person the question was directed at ask first. Don't you think I have a specific reason for asking Kryp to explain herself? Now she can just copy your answers. It's polite, if nothing else, to wait for the person asked to answer before adding your comments. Would it have been so hard to wait, and then say "I think Kryp is right. RVS can add pressure but her vote wasn't going anywhere."

If RVS can add pressure but her vote wasn't going anywhere, why did she not add a new random vote? Why not add a vote along with her questions? In my experience, scum are more cautious to lay votes down so I find it suspicious that she's holding back. /shrug

Doom is also guilty of this, but his post at least indicated a reason along with it - that he's waiting for a response. Kryp has now had her response, but still no vote. Her continued questions indicate (to me at least) that she's not satisfied with the answers she's had so far, so I can't see what harm adding a vote to the pressure of her questions would do.

On that note, Kryptinen: what conclusions have you drawn about Seacore so far from his response? I'm assuming you're not satisfied but I'd like to hear it from you.

[AurorusVox]

Why is having no vote > having a random vote?

If its a trap, you say that "anyone could have done it, even a scumbuddy."
But doesn't the fact "anyone could have done it" make the resulting tell null?

[AurorusVox]

DRUMMMMMMMMMMNK POSTING

Kryptienen needs to answer my quqestions of wrath

OR MY VOTES STAYSZZ

AIIIIIITE

[AurorusVox]

Hmph. Still not happy with Kryptinen, and I'm sure these are the same questions I've been asking for the last two pages, like reheated leftovers served for breakfast the next day...

I just like unvoting RVS as soon as possible. There is nothing bigger behind it. So

it's more like:

no vote=random vote < real vote.

If you like unvoting as soon as possible, and if having no vote is the same as having a random vote, why bother placing a RVS at all?
Do you think that random votes completely lack pressure?
I also note that you're changing your story with the bolded. This is a recurring theme.

Scumbuddies often try to keep distance to each other, as to not appear to be buddying. Some players realize this and use small openings to say something not important. So yeah, jumping at small things like that + ignoring each other

is not so null anymore.

In other words it would have been something I would have stored so I could have used it later in the game.

How are you using distance here? Distance as in keeping their distance, i.e. not interacting with each other; or distance as in, the practice of distancing, i.e. interrogating each other as though they did not share an alignment?

I have some questions on my own: AurorusVox, why are you only focusing on me? What do you think about that L-1 vote, for example, and Jedi's not unvoting? (And I had not logged in since your question was posted, so I have not had any time to answer.)

I'm focusing on you because you haven't satisfied me with your responses yet. "Please look at these other people!" is deflection; isn't that what you said scummy people do here?

Anything to get the discussion away from himself.

In general I agree with Jedo that bandwaggoning is good; it builds good pressure on scum early on, and is more likely to come from a townie than a scum in my opinion due to the attention garnered from bandwaggoning and the potential for that BW to be on your own scumbuddy. But my understanding stops short when there is someone else that you find scummier - surely it would be better to try to build pressure/a BW on that person? Otherwise you're preventing yourself from ever putting down an original vote.

NS' posts are a little off, the lack of L-1 notice could be a scumgambit with view to a hapless hammer, or it could just be laziness. The reasoning on DB feels weak. Basically Glass has summed it up with this:

Jedo is voting someone he doesn't think is scummy over the person he thinks is scummy.
NS is voting doom for... idk, something that I don't find valid.
Krypt's responses sound like lame excuses

[AurorusVox]

From my slapdash count, I think that's NS at L-2.

Interesting fact: Kryp, Jedo and NS have all been at L-2 at some point since the last vote count.

[AurorusVox]

Seems I missed that there unvote.

Quaroath, why is the Kryp wagon bad? >:(

[AurorusVox]

Sorry to keep labouring the point but how does a random vote generate discussion if it doesn't generate pressure?
My working theory is you RV'd in order to not buck the trend. You then later got called out on unvoting, and tied yourself in knots trying to excuse it.
I still don't understand why you'd unvote, I mean, the vote makes zero difference, so what would the harm have been in keeping it?

If keeping their distance from (i.e. ignoring) each other is a scumtell, why would you have suspected anyone who jumped in to defend Seacore? That's not ignoring each other, that's helping a brotha out.

Is Jedo's lurking worse than Nacho's? Are either of them scummier than NS?

[AurorusVox]

Something is pinging my gut on Kryp. Maybe I'm just a grumpy asshole cos it took so long to get an answer. Vote remains for now.

So. I was going to comment on how one of the scumbags is probably just sitting in the background, just kind of gently fanning the flames. So I went to ISO people. And guess what? "Fuzzylightning" has made zero posts so far.

To people with him as a QT partner. Did he realise the game was in progress?

[AurorusVox]

^TS, nothing else to comment on? :\

Nacho is the towniest of

townies

third-parties right now. I'll have a thorough reread tonight or tomorrow of Jedo/NS/Seacore and see what pings. I'm still not happy with Krypt but it could be tunnelvision or irritation at having to keep repeating my questions to get a straight answer

[AurorusVox]

SEATLE

I proveided thpughsts in some post about the other wagons plz for to see that for my response to non KRUPTINEN things.

Um. Drunk now. Rereading in the morning. I know i said today but I've gott essays lads, and essays need completing,

I would be willing ot proxy my vote ot Nacho right now he's such a beast. I can;t get over loving Jedo from a previous game, plus I think BWing is useful so I'm not buying that as a scumtell. I dunno. I need a srs reread wihout Kryptinent involved to see where my head is at.

SALAMAEL, who are you replacing anyway? no poster whatsisname, Fuzzy Lightyear, I guess? Flakers be flaking yo.
If instead you're rpelacing NOBODY SPECTACULAR thaen I'm gonna have to revise my read on that slot because you are bringing town vibes all over yo.

Never drink and post, children.

[AurorusVox]

Congratulations on the pregnancy Quarath.

[AurorusVox]

^Whilst I may not be up to speed on the NS/Jedo/Seacore triumvirate yet, this vote by PR is awfulawfulawful.

Vote: Powerrox93

[AurorusVox]

Ah, unless you're talking about me saying that I found some actions of his scummy and then I'm saying I don't find him scummy. Okay, yeah, that looks like a contradiction, but isn't really, not on Day 1. Nearly everybody drops tiny little scumtells early on when you're grasping for evidence to start playing with.

This part of Seacore's post stinks. "Oh you found a contradiction. Well let's pretend it's not one. Plz ignore early scumslips."

Waiting on Jedo's response to Set's recent questioning.
Doom: what's your take on Setael's case on Jedo? You've played with Jedo once before; plus his recent games are available on the site, as someone else has already proven. Why do you need to assume anything about his meta?

[AurorusVox]

^Again with the not letting the person I ask a question of respond themselves. What is it with folks here hating me getting my answers straight up?

[AurorusVox]

@Wicked

RE: Doom doing the same as Kryp, I've already covered ^^"

Doom is also guilty of this, but his post at least indicated a reason along with it - that he's waiting for a response. Kryp has now had her response, but still no vote. Her continued questions indicate (to me at least) that she's not satisfied with the answers she's had so far, so I can't see what harm adding a vote to the pressure of her questions would do.

RE: Seacore's self vote - I'm undecided on the validity of self-voting (and other casual RVS behaviour) as a scumtell. My instinct bristles against it; but when I actually consider what a self vote is and what it does, it spirals into a WIFOM balancing act of purposefully bringing attention to oneself, negating a voting trail or early connections, and simply being cavalier. That's why I asked the question, to see what response he gave. I don't think his joking response was particularly scummy (like if he'd tried to wriggle out of the accusation/changed his vote immediately for exa)mple

[AurorusVox]

@Wicked
Glass has good early reads and made some good points. Recent V/LA and lack of in-thread presence prior to Saturday makes it difficult to move beyond a gut townvibe based on her succinct summary of the game, but Saturday's catchup contained :goodposting: so I like Glass atm.

As for my having/eating cake, admittedly I

did

need to give reads on other players at that time, but the reason I called Kryptinen out on it was because she hadn't answered my questions of her to a satisfactory degree yet, and was trying to shoo me off elsewhere before in an attempt to get me off her back, which I didn't like, especially considering she called deflection a scumtell earlier. Since she'd asked, I wasn't going to outright ignore her, but I wasn't going to drop my line of questioning either.

[AurorusVox]

I knew about it because Nacho told me he was a survivor in our neighbour QT

Glass

Did Nacho tell you he was a survivor too?

[AurorusVox]

@AurorusVox (114) - I'm curious what you think. Do you feel any pressure from a random vote? If not, how do you think random votes generate discussion?

Random votes DO generate pressure, in my opinion. Although a vote may be random, you should have to do something good to get it off you, or play well enough for long enough that someone slips up and the vote moves. When small wagons get built on people this pressure grows (which is why I didn't mind Jedo voting to form a BW). Even if the pressure it generates is small, my point to Kryptinen was that a vote causes MORE pressure than no vote, since no vote can't cause ANY pressure whatsoever.

[AurorusVox]

Glass, before you go, can you answer my question about Nacho - did he claim Survivor to you in your QT too?

[AurorusVox]

If Seacore was scum, how likely do you think it is for him to have done one of these things? And what do you mean by "wriggling out of the accusation" ?

I assume if he was scum he'd have tried to do one of those two things, that's why I said I'd have found it scummier if he had done them. Wriggling out of the accusation, in whatever way he could, be that deflecting, getting very angry, making up dodgy excuses for it.

Here's a working example; he has since talked about the vote being partially a potential honey trap for eager scum. If he'd said that at the time, it might have looked like he was trying to make up an excuse to get people off his wagon, i.e. wriggle out of the accusation. Since he's not mentioned that until now, I am more willing to believe he's being honest about it.

[AurorusVox]

@Wicked, TS told me that Nacho had claimed. He didn't tell me

what

that claim was yet.

Power, you can't get rid of that awful vote by moving it elsewhere and claiming it was done in anger. If it was a spur of the moment thing, why didn't you change it in #222? Why did you wait until you were under fire for making that vote before moving it, hmm?

[AurorusVox]

PR's disappearing act has basically confirmed his as scum now.
He should claim & Wicked should hammer soon.

Packbat, who's your top suspect atm and why aren't you voting for them?

[AurorusVox]

Hurrm.

Watcher is a pretty confirmable PR so I can roll with leaving him alive for tonight.

Back to

Vote: Kryptinen

.

[excuse]I've got 2 essays due Tuesday, and I'm moving house on Saturday, so I probably won't have time to look at the other players' past posts until early next week, but if I get a chance tomorrow I'll do some ISOs of Doom/Seacore/Packbat/Jedo.[/excuse]

I will also be

V/LA Saturday --> Monday

.

[AurorusVox]

Hey, sorry for my disappearance, I had to unexpectedly catch a train to another part of the country, to sign documents for a flat I'm renting a few days earlier than I thought, and I've been without internet since Thursday. Urgh.

I'm prioritising this game for my reread since deadline is so soon. I'll catch up on whatever pages I've missed to see where I am, then ISO whoever needs it for deadline voting. It'll be quite rushed, so sorry for that, but my letting agents are incompetent and don't even get me started on ISPs.

Again, apologies for my absence.

[AurorusVox]

AV's Catch-Up Post of Buggery

I don't want to lynch LlamaFluff today despite him replacing my top suspect.

In your catchup, Glass was "obvScum" - why has him replacing out changed that view? This was before LF had even made a post beyond saying a Catchup was coming.

Also, I'm not sure why Wicked wanted to not have PR claim results til late in the game, and then he changed his mind on this after Kryp "reminded" him that scum have a NK...these posts are the first time Wicked has really unsettled me since he replaced in.

---

LF fails to give reasons with his suspicion of me for at least a page, despite people asking him for them. Maybe he didn't have any at the time?

---

Kryptinen; was TS scummy for not answering these questions? You seem to be attacking him a lot but I'm not seeing any vote.

---

So basically, Nacho is the only one who moved from Jedo to Power that I don't find suspicious.

What do you make of the reason that many people voted for Power? That would be this post.

---

Ah. Llama finally gives reasons.

Spoiler: LlamaFluff's Reasons

I can personally go along with this up to a point. It's not an all-access pass to being scummy so it depends how the rest of the game pans out. If you're playing pro-town I won't want to see you lynched anyway.

Scum by far are happier with Nacho-survivor living then town is, as if the game hits lylo, all scum claim and nacho wins with them. No matter what Nacho says, he will side with scum if it gets close to an endgame, which is why you always lynch the claimed survivor. Yes I know im not voting him, but there is one tiny thing.

Wow, then the whole game must be full of scum because, y'know, no one at all voted Nacho because of his claim. This is a bullshit reason to give the impression that you've got a case.

Lol I noticed that too Seacore but thought you should get the first bite.

This rings bells. AV is claiming that he saw what he thought was a tell, but decided not to respond to it beacuse it occured in something directed at another person. This was not a "Sea posted first" scenario, but AV deciding not to comment on something he saw as scummy, just doing a quick "I agree" when its pointed out.

Let's quote that post in full, shall we?

^Lol I noticed that too Seacore but thought you should get the first bite.

Kryp, why is the second vote the one to start the wagon?
Why is the third vote the official wagon vote?
Did you realise Seacore himself was the second vote?

Hardly me not commenting on something I saw as scummy and then doing a "quick I agree" post, eh? What you've done is blatantly misrep me by removing over half the post, the half that was in fact me COMMENTING on the post that I saw as scummy. MAJOR LlamaScum points for that.

He continues to argue with Krypt while competely ignoring everything else that was going on, including the L-1 vote from NS that he just kinda says "could be a scum gambit"

From my slapdash count, I think that's NS at L-2.

Interesting fact: Kryp, Jedo and NS have all been at L-2 at some point since the last vote count.

IIoA anyone? Cool fact that this point is that even though JJ and NS have reached L-2, AV has really avoided commenting on either of them. He said he thinks bandwagoning is a town tell (bull, its a playstyle tell and anyone who like it will tell you that) and that NS could be scum (how about a strong stance?) Nothing much else going on, although he is attacking people who are defending Krypt a bit (not scum with Quar).

I admit I was tunnelling on Kryptinen but that's because it took me so long to get an answer to my questions. I'm not going to drop my questions when they've not been answered.

Is Jedo's lurking worse than Nacho's? Are either of them scummier than NS?

Lol deflection from JJ. This is an interesting post. Apparently NS, who he has mentioned in essentially only one line is his second suspect. Nacho also is somehow scummier then JJ? Lots of odd things going on here, as he suddenly seems overly interested in people being quiet.

I was asking that in response to a line of scumhunting from Kryptinen, whose stance I took to be imbalanced; i.e. it was accusing certain people of lurking but not attacking all lurkers equally. I'm judging HIS supposed markers of scumminess against HIS proposed standard of scumminess. And it didn't add up, indicating potential links.

I'll have a thorough reread tonight or tomorrow of Jedo/NS/Seacore and see what pings.

............

AV had been subtely defending JJ and not so subtely defending Sea so far, what really made this change? Apart from the obvious that this is right where the Krypt wagon fell apart. Anyone want to make a bet on who is taking flack right at this point too?

Nacho's post made me consider these three, and I was trying to get out of tunnel mode.

RE: Seacore's self vote - I'm undecided on the validity of self-voting (and other casual RVS behaviour) as a scumtell. My instinct bristles against it; but when I actually consider what a self vote is and what it does, it spirals into a WIFOM balancing act of purposefully bringing attention to oneself, negating a voting trail or early connections, and simply being cavalier. That's why I asked the question, to see what response he gave.

I don't think his joking response was particularly scummy

(like if he'd tried to wriggle out of the accusation/changed his vote immediately for exa)mple

Wow, what a turnaround on Sea. AV spent a whole lot of the early game buddying to him, and out of nowhere starts the attack? This just really feels out of place especially as most of his points are coming from the early game where he appeared to think that Sea was actually town.

Hardly an attack. I've bolded it for you.

---

Quaroath also gets on the "provide dodgy reasons to suspect AV" train.

Spoiler: Quaroath's Reasons

#44 AV why you defend seacore so much?

How is #44 defending Seacore? It's attacking Kryptinen.

AV's posting has been geting worse as the game cntinues. Some of the "drunk posts" feel like prod dodges to seem active while not being active.

Completely unfounded accusations. I can provide links to all my drunkposts across all my games at the same time. I drunkpost whenever I get drunk. /shrug

(1) AV went from super active early on to a relative disappearing act. (2) Most of the recent posts have been staying out of the discussion and sheeping a variety of people. AV also likes to answer questions for others, and is in general unhelpful. The reread has me questioning my early read on av as town.

(1) Possibly due to having no internet. That tends to stop you posting in thread.
(2) Please show where I've sheeped? After I got my questions answered from Krypt I think I've been more engaged with other things.
(3) Please show where I've answered questions for ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF? **more awful misrepping as this has never even happened once**

If I post everything I write I'll get called out for sheeping, if I post what I want to post I get called out for holding things back.

Quar trying to avoid being accused of things he calls scummy = Quar doing scummy things but not wanting to get called on it.

Newsflash, town should fight getting lynched.

Quaroath, I want you to post your notes in their entirety, now. If you don't, I will vote you.

The reasoning is that scum might say "here's the part that's not fluff" as to make it seem like they've done more work in rereading the game than they have, and to make their catchup posts look more impressive.

So vote me.

Doesn't look like you're trying to fight getting lynched to me, Quar.

Though it does look like you moved your vote to cave to pressure from other players in an attempt to appease them?

---

This post by PR is a badpost. There is plenty to say. You can't just ride your claim to safety.

---

Setael, Jedi was a bigger wagon at this point, so why did you switch to Seacore if you think both are scum?

---

Quar's posts in the last few pages have been bad, and his case on me included at least one count of serious misrep, which I think is a huge scumtell.

Vote: Quaroath

LlamaFluff gets scumpoints for a huge misrep, sadly Kryptinen has made some decent posts so she moves up the list a little, Doom is reading town to me and I still don't see the JJ case.

[AurorusVox]

Beleive me I read the game thinking "what the hell is wrong with these people" since its very basic theory to kill any non-town claim instantly. A few people (such as yourself) reacted far worse then anyone else, especially as you appeared to note all the reasons for lynching the player instantly before deciding to vote elsewhere.

I didn't ever consider myself to be noting reasons to lynch Nacho. I said I'd treat him based on his play.

The fact is you DIDNT comment on it at first. What possible reason exists for not commenting on a post until someone else gets the chance to. Also how is anything you quoted scumhunting and not theory discussion?

The point is to let Seacore respond to it first since it was an attack on Seacore. I hate it when people interfere with my lines of questioning (as I've made clear TWICE now in this thread) so you can't claim I have no reason to let Seacore say something first.

My scumhunting comes from asking people questions. I see how they answer and judge it against what they've done and said because I like contradictions as a scumtell. As far as they're theory questions, they're related to real practical in game occurrences, and I can relate Krypt's "theory" of what should happen to what he actually did in game. If they don't match up, he's lying, or making stuff up, and is therefore scum.

That is not an answer to my point. Are you incapable of asking more than one person a question at once? Obviously you read the game enough to know what JJ and NS did, why would commenting on it detract your case on Krypt (which is your fear here?).

Because I was focussing on getting my questions answered from that one player. That was all I cared about because I thought I had scum in my sights and wanted to spend my effort there.

This post just horribly horribly makes me think its setting up for a wagon. You NEVER mentioned JJ or Sea in a negative light the entire game, and actually seemed convinced that they were town, then a single post from someone who in all honesty should have been dead by page three and/or ignored throughout the whole game changes your viewpoint? What in there made you want to reread Sea too? I see him mentioned offhand as a jokinglyish scummy thing, making me think you more just read through it and saw that assuming it had something to do with him being scum. This is just really setting up for a sheep on any of the three, and comes at a convient time. Krypt had just had his wagon fall apart, JJ wagon was taking off, people were still giving NS shit. Opportunistic to the max, timing is all wrong here.

I disagree Nacho should be dead by page three, and his post on JJ/NS was put together well. He'd been paying more attention to them than I had because I'd been tunnelling on Krypt. So he gave me a good deal to think about. Seacore, I can't remember where that came from, not Nacho's posts you're right, maybe someone else around that time. If you want I can go back and track my thought process but not tonight, I've been catchup posting a lot and I'm knackered.

You tunneled the entire first part of the game on the VI/newbie, when that wagon falls apart, you follow the last person to make a big post and start sheeping along with the games top scum reads while lot looking anywhere else. power gets ran up? You are one of the first ones there to catch that wagon, everything points more to scum being opportunistic to town actually scumhunting.

Power gets to L-1 and that's MY fault? Hello, that's POWER'S fault for being scummy! If I'd put him at L-1 then maybe your argument would hold water, but I notice you're not going after Quaroath who was the person that did that (and didn't even want him lynched!).

[AurorusVox]

Why is Quar scum? This is an open question to anyone except Packbat. I cant remember anyone else providing a case on him, just sort of jumping the wagon.

Spoiler: AV's Reasons for voting Quar

Quaroath also gets on the "provide dodgy reasons to suspect AV" train.

#44 AV why you defend seacore so much?

How is #44 defending Seacore? It's attacking Kryptinen.

AV's posting has been geting worse as the game cntinues. Some of the "drunk posts" feel like prod dodges to seem active while not being active.

Completely unfounded accusations. I can provide links to all my drunkposts across all my games at the same time. I drunkpost whenever I get drunk. /shrug

(1) AV went from super active early on to a relative disappearing act. (2) Most of the recent posts have been staying out of the discussion and sheeping a variety of people. AV also likes to answer questions for others, and is in general unhelpful. The reread has me questioning my early read on av as town.

(1) Possibly due to having no internet. That tends to stop you posting in thread.
(2) Please show where I've sheeped? After I got my questions answered from Krypt I think I've been more engaged with other things.
(3) Please show where I've answered questions for ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF? **more awful misrepping as this has never even happened once**

If I post everything I write I'll get called out for sheeping, if I post what I want to post I get called out for holding things back.

Quar trying to avoid being accused of things he calls scummy = Quar doing scummy things but not wanting to get called on it.

Newsflash, town should fight getting lynched.

Quaroath, I want you to post your notes in their entirety, now. If you don't, I will vote you.

The reasoning is that scum might say "here's the part that's not fluff" as to make it seem like they've done more work in rereading the game than they have, and to make their catchup posts look more impressive.

So vote me.

Doesn't look like you're trying to fight getting lynched to me, Quar.

Though it does look like you moved your vote to cave to pressure from other players in an attempt to appease them?

[...]

Quar's posts in the last few pages have been bad, and his case on me included at least one count of serious misrep, which I think is a huge scumtell.

Vote: Quaroath

I put it in a spoiler because it spoils your claim that no one has made a case on him.

(Btw Jedo was at L-4 when you asked Quar (at L-2) to claim. I wondered why you asked Quar and not Jedo and went back and checked it /shrug)

[AurorusVox]

Misrep requires someone to make a case on you. You can try to call it OMGUS if you want but there's clearly a difference.
His apathy towards his own lynch and his vote move have been noted by others as well. How is that part of my reason OMGUS if others are doing it too?

Try harder.

Also if you didn't realise that I had already voted Quar, then that means you thought you were asking him for a claim at L-3. The same threshold as you thought Jedo was at when you asked. Now, your whole claim request was excusable before when the numbers were in your favour. But if you thought both were at L-3 then how do you now explain asking Quar to claim but not Jedo?

[AurorusVox]

Nk speculation can be a terrible wifom spiral.

I'm posting from my gfs phone so I can't look back far through the thread but based on this page alone I'm making a reread of llama a prioroty, as parts are sounding town but some bits I'm still unsure about. plus I'll be looking at anyone who's pushing the Nk as a reason too hard. More when I have better net access :\

[AurorusVox]

Want to hear who these people find scummy and why: AV

Your wish is my command. I was getting around to a good wall post once I got decent net access for a few hours. Here goes:

---

Powerrox

I still find PR scummy. His Nacho vote, listing others as higher scumreads and then not changing it, claiming it was done "in anger" -- none of it looks townish, all of it looks fabricated and scummy. He sheeped Wicked's reason to vote Quar, and then said he was hanging around with nothing to add. Active lurking to the max.

Today, his claim has changed overnight from "Watcher" to "limited watcher" which I don't like at all. If he had said it was a tactical decision like someone else mentioned, then I might have found a way to understand (I still would've been suspicious), but "forgetting" is not an excuse. You had all day to amend it. Not to mention you "remembered" to claim that you couldn't do anything N0. This STINKS of scum trying to make the claim more elaborate to get around him having to claim his results every day. I'm surprised no one else has a problem with this fumbled claim. I mean, think about it - if he's legit, he's never gonna be able to catch scum now. I don't think a real, legitimate watcher would be so...powerless.

After this new info, he's pretty much confirmed scum in my eyes.

Vote: Powerrox

---

Kryptinen

My tunnelling could be to blame for this. I still have a scumread on Krypt. Today, the accusation at Packbat feels like a real non-issue, potentially opportunistic - throw the blame at the hammer vote. Also, read Krypt in ISO. It's quite incredible. For the first page, his suspicions of Jedo grow and grow - and then at the start of the second page, miraculously, he's against the Jedo wagon.

Krpyt is a very solid 2nd scumread. His disappearing scumread on Jedo is very suspicious. Can you explain that?

---

LlamaFluff

My read on LF has wobbled around. Something I didn't notice yesterday looks worse with Quar's flip; some things look better with his comments today and me realising I'd made a mistake. The movement has been weak, but I read him as less scummy than yesterday, but still on the scum side of null.

First off the townie things:

Today's play w/r/t investing too much thought into the possible reasons behind the NK initially sounded legit and townie (I too hate trying to navigate WIFOM and nk speculation has it in bucketloads), but I've since realised that it could simply be more WIFOM -

if

Wicked was killed for his LF suspicions, then of course, LF will try to downplay that aspect. I'm now treating LF's reaction to it as null, with a possible town tinge if I'm feeling generous.

My major concern was the misrep, but I relaise that could come down to difference in opinion re: scumhunting. Llama's move into thinking I'm a "twat" could explain the friction from such a difference of opinion, so my sense of the (potential) misrep as a scumtell is not as strong as it was yesterday.

I also realised I accused you of thinking both Jedo and Quar were at L-3 when you asked Quar to claim (based on thinking you didn't realise I'd voted). I've since seen that it was Kryptinen who didn't realise I'd voted, not you. So strike that post away.

And the post-flip scummy thing:

You were accusing me of being a driving force behind the PR wagon, and presumably getting him to claim, which doesn't really hold water - PR is very scummy, and his wagon built because his play was suspicious. Interestingly, you never questioned Quar for putting PR at L-1, despite him stating later on that he didn't really want him lynched at that point. I'm thinking as scum you wouldn't push Quar because you would

know

he was a mislynch and would probably want to stay off the wagon; not pushing him meant you didn't have to accompany any suspicions with a vote. Otherwise, please explain why you didn't have a problem with Quar's vote?

---

Additional things

so the players nearer the top of the list would have more of a reason to kill him, correct?

Too much WIFOM. TS, I read you as town pal, but this sounds like you've concocted an evil plan to throw suspicion at LF. Considering you were one of Wicked's townreads (and you've been using that in your defence), I'm not really liking this post at all.

Yes - particularly if they aren't suspected by others. Glass/LlamaFluff is probably the first person we should look at from an NK-analysis perspective, although by my logic Packbat would also be worth investigating.

Again, too much WIFOM. How reliable do you really think the NK spec as a strategy is, when you yourself are one of the ones implicated by it? The cheeky wink here seems to be deflecting. There are times and places for jokes, and this doesn't really seem like an appropriate one.

I had no reason to post in the QTs. If I had some reason to, I might have.

Do you not think the mere opportunity to post in them is a reason in and of itself?

[AurorusVox]

The fact you can only watch your neighbours is

explicitly

in your rolename, and you STILL managed to forget to claim the scope of your power?
Not buying it.

[AurorusVox]

Doom: Its not just Setael he has to explain visiting. He'd have to come up with reasons for every visit he ever does. This way he's "stuck" between Setael and Seacore until one of them gets lynched and only has to explain why he picked one over the other.

In a recently finished game I limited the scope of my fakeclaim as scum so I didn't have to explain my choices as much. So I see there to be plenty of motivation to it. In all likelihood one of his scumbuddies suggested it last night which is why he didn't claim it yesterday vOv

Llama, plz to respond to my points about you in my post. Or are you just treating me as the twat in the corner?
Also, regardless of his formatting, what do you make of the nature of the claim i.e. the WAY he's claimed it in two parts?

[AurorusVox]

He'd have to come up with reasons for every visit he ever does.

It's not really harder than "I think X is town. therefore I watched him". Making up this restriction is way more elaborate than any of his reasons would have to be.

But the restriction lets himget away with NOT watching the towniest players. He CAN'T watch his towniest reads because it allows him to ONLY choose between Setael and Seacore.

Maybe an example will make my point clearer. Say someone has a guilty result, outs it, and then gets NK'd the next night. Power here can't watch that player because he's restricted himself to ONLY his neighbours. That's perfect for a scum fakeclaim, isn't it?

@AV: Why do you think PR would change his claim to neighborhood only now? Do you think he was coached into that, or do you think he came up with it himself?

I think there could well be some help from scumbuddies in it. If he'd thought it up yesterday, he would probably have claimed it yesterday. The scumteam probably realised it would be a good thing to say while debating on which fake result to give.

---

@LF: I got to your post when I have only 1 minute left on the internet, so I can't give you a big case yet. But my reasons are back in my post with my vote. Stuff he did yesterday compounded by his elaborate claim that just wants to make his life as scum easier. I can go into more detail if I have time to come back to the library before I go home.

[AurorusVox]

Reconnected for 15 mins gogogo

I still find PR scummy. His Nacho vote, listing others as higher scumreads and then not changing it, claiming it was done "in anger" -- none of it looks townish, all of it looks fabricated and scummy. He sheeped Wicked's reason to vote Quar, and then said he was hanging around with nothing to add. Active lurking to the max.

This is the remnants of D1's suspicions. They were only shelved because of the testable claim.

- His Nacho vote was the main reason I first found him scummy. It was simply OMGUS, with NO substance to it at all. This was confirmed when:
- He had two other people as his top scumreads. Nacho was not a top scumread. At this point he is STILL voting for Nacho.
- He then claims his Nacho vote was in anger. It didn't read that way at all. Also, if it was an anger vote, why was it not changed in the intervening posts?
- He voted Quar simply by quoting Wicked's reasoning and saying he agreed. There was NO proactive scumhunting whatsoever. He was just riding the tails of his claim.
- This is even more obvious when we see his "I have nothing to add" post at the end of D1. Actively lurking and hoping his claim will sustain him throughout the game.

Today, his claim has changed overnight from "Watcher" to "limited watcher" which I don't like at all. If he had said it was a tactical decision like someone else mentioned, then I might have found a way to understand (I still would've been suspicious), but "forgetting" is not an excuse. [He] had all day to amend it. Not to mention [he] "remembered" to claim that you couldn't do anything N0. This STINKS of scum trying to make the claim more elaborate to get around him having to claim his results every day. I'm surprised no one else has a problem with this fumbled claim. I mean, think about it - if he's legit, he's never gonna be able to catch scum now. I don't think a real, legitimate watcher would be so...powerless.

^My thoughts on the claim. Other bits and pieces are strewn throughout my recent few posts. I truly believe its a fake claim. At the very least lie, he's a scum watcher. Failing that, I really don't see his play as town, at all.

---

I'm on holiday in sunny Spain from Saturday 7th --> Saturday 14th May so I will obviously be V/LA for that time.

I'll probably be able to get on once more tomorrow so...any burning questions or so forth should be posted today to give me a chance to respond before I leave you all.

In that spirit, since it seems no one is willing to lynch Power today, can we at least give Kryptinen the rope?

Unvote; Vote: Kryptinen

[AurorusVox]

I take Kryp's failure to answer my questions to be a scumtell. Just look how long I had to pester him before I got a straight answer about his unvote.

Kryptinen; what harm was your vote on PR doing? Why the need to unvote to ask Seacore some questions?

Krypto, can you explain why a vote on no one is better than a random vote on someone?
If you don't like RVS why did you vote at all? Why did you not RQS from the start?

Kryptinen, I restate:

Why did you vote at all if you disbelieve in the power of RVs? If they have at least a little power, why did you Unvote?

Why is having no vote > having a random vote?

If you like unvoting as soon as possible, and if having no vote is the same as having a random vote, why bother placing a RVS at all?
Do you think that random votes completely lack pressure?

Sorry to keep labouring the point but how does a random vote generate discussion if it doesn't generate pressure?
My working theory is you RV'd in order to not buck the trend. You then later got called out on unvoting, and tied yourself in knots trying to excuse it.
I still don't understand why you'd unvote, I mean, the vote makes zero difference, so what would the harm have been in keeping it?

---

There's also his pressure on you for hammering 46 minutes before the deadline (?), and the complete reversal of his Jedo read. It seems ISO's have changed so you can't see the drastic shift from P1 to P2, but if you read him you should see the way it completely disintegrates and turns into a null read, with him explicitly positioning himself against the wagon.

There is also his habit of questioning people without laying a vote down (Seacore, TwistedSpoon) - perhaps trying to erode the potential for VCA. Seacore is the better example of this - I think he was voteless when he questioned Seacore, I can't remember the situation when he questioned TS. "A townies most powerful weapon is their vote" so why is he so worried about using it? :\

I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday. But when I lay it all out like this, I don't see any pro-town reason for making it so difficult to get a straight anaswer, and the other things just help to confirm that suspicion.

[AurorusVox]

AV: Why are you so hard on me about "not answering your questions" when Packbat

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

has yet to do anything about this?

More deflection. Packbat's is a general failure that could come from lack of time, etc. whereas yours was dodging answering questions

specifically

and

explicitly

aimed at you. Packbat may not have given the thread a reread, but you were denying me the chance to get an answer out of something I wanted answered.

I see no reason to vote every person I want an answer from, but the person I want it from the most. At the moment it's Packbat.

What about Seacore way back in D1? You didn't have a single vote down when you asked him questions. Presumably you wanted answers from him the most at that point?

Jedo was dodging questions and stopping that improved his play a lot.

So you admit that dodging questions is scummy? Kthx.

Who are your town reads? What do you think about Packbat and Jedo/ICE? You seem to have a habit of focusing all your attention on one player and not telling us what you think about everyone else. So you just want to keep a door open so that you can start pressuring people more when your initial wagon fails? Closing your eyes to most of the game is not good play.

Excuse me but I've been pressuring my TOP THREE scumreads (you, Power, Llama). So take your lies and misrep elsewhere, scum.

And I see no reason to divulge my full spectrum of reads. I very rarely do.
If I find something scummy about Packbat or GreyICE when I reread D2 so far, I'll make it known.

---

In other news, I finally got internet in my flat! So I can give the last few pages a decent going over without librarians breathing down my neck and tutting when they see I'm on a forum and not an academic journal archive

[AurorusVox]

Re-reading D2 so far;

I don't really like the dance Set and Sea are playing around each other. It seems odd - they both want to call the other scum without actually voting for each other? I can see the merit in GreyICE's idea that Jedo is likely a mislynch being pushed by the two scumbuddies Sea/Set. If that's true, though, only one of [Power/Kryp/Llama] could be scum. That messes with my reads completely, but Llama is least likely to be scum pick out of those three. I'll reassess once we've seen some flips.

---

Just because Set is bussing you doesn't make you town. My opinion is that Set has decided that Jedo is worth bussing because he was pretty useless and enough people found him suspicious. She's now trying like mad to link me to your inevitable scum flip to try and save herself.

So why not vote Set? If Set is bussing GreyICE, then Set makes just as good a vote as Grey. In fact, surely Set makes a

better

vote as the "busser" than the "bussee" since the latter could be a mislynch, not a bussed scum.

I didn't expect Seacore to stay on Jedo this long. I thought he would unvote and vote me, which would make sense since he was posting so many reasons to think I'm scum. I'm guessing he didn't because I called him on it.

Same question as above. Doesn't the busser make more sense than the bussee as a vote?

---

Grey:

What changed from this post to this post to this post? In the first you declare Llama is scummy, then in the second you say he's townie, and in the last he's potential scum again?

---

Llama

, was your vote on me merely under pressure from Grey? That's what it seems like; conceding to get Grey off your back. You then say wagons on town reads can be good and useful, implying that you're wagonning me as a town read. In that case, why do you put me in a scumteam later in the same post? OR: do you mean

Grey

was the town bandwagon? If so, you failed to answer the second part of his question - which I read as asking why I make a better vote than Setael, if you think a vote on him is a good direction for the game?

---

I doubt my vote is going to be useful on Kryptinen while I'm away. If there is support there, please, let me know in the next few hours so I can replace my vote before leaving >_>

I would gladly see Set or Sea lynched today, they're both as bad as each other for their distancing-dance.

Vote: Seacore

[AurorusVox]

Grey, you're wobbling between "townie tone" and "delusional town" - one sounds like a much firmer town-read than the other.
What makes you doubt the Seacore wagon now? The people you're on it with? I've not seen you express much suspicion of TS or myself, so where is this worry is coming from?

[AurorusVox]

Eh, that's fine if TS's crappy vote is putting you off, its just you hadn't actually mentioned it before so.
I have a slight townread of TS based on our QT interaction, if that helps alleviate the worry any?

Be interesting to see what Setael does now that Seacore is at L-2.

---

In other news, I read PR's latest posts as debating whether or not to bus his buddy. My only concern is that a Set/Sea/PR scumteam has no room for Kryptinen scum in it. Maybe I'm blinkered by tunnel vision after all... /sigh

[AurorusVox]

Deadline is after I get back of holiday, so I can move my vote when I return if needed.
Right now I'd be willing to switch to Setael too since he's guilty of the same stuff as Seacore.
If support for a PR or Krypt wagon arose I'd also obviously be happy to vote for them.

Until I return, happy scumhunting.

[AurorusVox]

Returned from holiday today. A very quick catchup post follows.

---

Maybe an example will make my point clearer. Say someone has a guilty result, outs it, and then gets NK'd the next night. Power here can't watch that player because he's restricted himself to ONLY his neighbours. That's perfect for a scum fakeclaim, isn't it?

A One-shot position mover flipped. PR is fairly close to confirmed town for me.

Can you explain this line of thinking?

Ehh. I hadn't thought about it like you had (interaction with Wicked). I had thought Wicked was purely for HIM, for him to talk to someone he wanted.

In your line of thinking, PR only works if he's fully outed...which also makes him pretty useless. Do I assume from this that you think he just messed up his claim by accident yesterday?

I take Kryp's failure to answer my questions to be a scumtell. Just look how long I had to pester him before I got a straight answer about his unvote.

I interpreted a lot of the trouble in you getting your answer to have to do with the language barrier. Do you disagree with that?

I wasn't aware that there was a language barrier issue. I thought my questions were straightforward enough...

There's also his pressure on you for hammering 46 minutes before the deadline (?), and the complete reversal of his Jedo read. It seems ISO's have changed so you can't see the drastic shift from P1 to P2, but if you read him you should see the way it completely disintegrates and turns into a null read, with him explicitly positioning himself against the wagon.

I was the one pushing the Jedo wagon the most adamantly, and I'm pretty sure that you never questioned me on that.

Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?

I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday.

I will never take your krypt case seriously until you go "okay, I think that krypt is scum and I'm pushing her lynch because of that", and not "oh well i might just be lynchin her cuz she didn't answer my questions yesterday LOL".

That's not what I'm saying though is it. I said I may be biased but everything combined convinces me that its more than that.

---

@AV: Your problem is that you only focus on a few players at a time and say nothing about other people, even if everyone else is talking about them. You could easily say you have a null read on someone and leave it at that, or say that you have not seen them do anything particularly scummy, like you just did. Why do I need to drag that out of you? Newsflash, the wagon on your scumbuddy is not going anywhere, even if you don't look at it.

You want me to be posting updated reads of every player in every single one of my posts? No. I'll post my cases on my top scumreads, and make notes of anything else as it occurs. You're selectively identifying this supposed tell in me when it's basically the same as everyone plays - that is, hardly anyone mentions everyone all the time in all their posts!

You say "drag" it out of me? I said precisely "like I just did" in the post that was a direct response to you ASKING me that question. And then 2 hours later I posted my read of more players. So STOP pretending you're "dragging" anything out when I answered promptly.

Which wagon are you referring to when you say I have a scumbuddy, that I'm ignoring?

(later)

AV: Tunneler, pretty null. Doesn't tell what thinks about players he's not currently tunneling on, but at least contributes stuff.

Misrep? Yep. I've not been tunnelling since early D1. Also, you had me as scum above. I haven't posted since - did you forget your reads, scum?

---

@Llama; can you quantify how hard Seacore was defending me (as opposed to, for example, just saying that he had a townread on me)?

Unvote; Vote: Setael

is a good vote (L-1).

I have a greater interest in a Set lynch than Seacore now due to some associations between Set and Krypt that make him more likely scum.

- Krypt saying "I'll vote for Seacore but not yet!" sounds like it could be scum trying to avoid hammering a mislynch.
- Krypt NOT voting for Setael when he could feasibly do so without being the hammer vote makes Set more likely a buddy than Seacore.
- Krypt has been accusing me of tunnelling but not Setael, being selective with his tells across different players.

[AurorusVox]

Doom:

There is good reason for distrusting Powerrox, thanks to the awful nature of his claim AS I'VE EXPLAINED MULTIPLE TIMES and as you've consistently failed to engage with in any real way.

My Krypt case is based on his overall play, as should be patently obvious to anyone who reads my posts about him.

And reread my post on Setael - I do have a case for switching my vote, which rests on my scumread of Kyrpt. I'll be more explicit. Krypt's dancing around the Seacore and Set issue, considering their relative positions to a lynch, implicates Setael as a Krypt buddy and Seacore as a probable mislynch. Why would Krypt have Set and Seacore as equally good choices for a lynch, and then not vote either of them? He says he doesn't want to lynch Seacore because there's discussion going on - even if we accept that this is true, why then doesn't he vote Set? Because Krypt is scum and Set is his scumbuddy, and he doesn't want to put his buddy close to a lynch with other people willing to vote for him. If Seacore is scum, Krypt has a choice between the two of them - and he chooses neither - which still makes Set scum. As for why Seacore is a probable mislynch; if Seacore is scum, Krypt - who has explicitly voiced suspicion of him - could easily hammer for towncred. If they're both scum, one of his buddies are getting lynched anyway so he'd have no reason not to maximise his reward. But he didn't hammer, because there wouldn't be towncred for hammering a mislynch.

There's also the part about selective tells with his accusation of tunnelling, which you conveniently ignored -.^

As for the "amazing" part - I said in my last post before I went V/LA that Set and Seacore were EQUALLY scummy for doing the same thing; I can't have said Set makes a better lynch than Seacore until now because I didn't think it until I came back. Can you explain why that's scummy?

Not liking Doom's last post at all. Reads as trying to throw dirt for when his buddy flips scum. Plus, Setael has now outright called Doom scum. Seems like a little bit of safe distancing with no real legs to cause any damage to Doom.

[AurorusVox]

I said in my last post before I went V/LA that Set and Seacore were EQUALLY scummy for doing the same thing; I can't have said Set makes a better lynch than Seacore until now because I didn't think it until I came back. Can you explain why that's scummy?

Because I think it would have to be pretty lucky for you to have changed your reads out of nowhere to where Set is more scummy than sea right when his wagon was building. Why did you just recently find Set to be a better lynch rather than notice all of what you've said before?

Because all the stuff that makes him a better lynch has only happened AFTER I went V/LA so this was the first point I could say anything about it?

[AurorusVox]

After all the kerfuffle with PR claiming his role in bits and pieces, Set not indicating the scope in his claim straight away = scumfakeclaiming

[AurorusVox]

What protown reason is there to not give your claim in full right from the start when you're at L-1 with multiple people prepared to hammer?

[AurorusVox]

In your line of thinking, PR only works if he's fully outed...which also makes him pretty useless. Do I assume from this that you think he just messed up his claim by accident yesterday?

Sure. I haven't really saw strong scum reasoning for PR to change his claim in the middle of the night, and it doesn't seem all that unbelievable.

Whilst debating who to fake a watch on, he and his scumbuddies concoct a new element to his power that enables him to limit how responsible he is for his targets. I know its a scum reason as I've done it as scum in the past.

Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

You asked why I was pushing Krypt and not you about the Jedo suspicions when you were the one doing it most, basically. But I was pushing Krypt because his main point against Jedo was that Jedo hammered 46 mins before the deadline. So if you weren't pressuring Jedo for the hammer, there's your answer.

[AurorusVox]

If I had voted Set, there had still been a change that someone had hammered while I had been away. That would have ended the discussion. I did not want that.

You did not want that...because he's your scumbuddy, maybe?

Setael has not been in the game long enough to give me tunneler vibes. The fact that you try to keep bringing the discussion back to me is another telltale sign of your tunneling.

That's because I think you're scum. You can try to call it tunnelling but I've not seen a reason to STOP thinking you're scum so I'm going to pressure you until you flip. Simple as. Also, I've been looking at multiple people (you, Power, Llama, Set/Sea) - Set's admitted that he's really only been looking at Sea and Grey. He's been in the game since midway through D1 - certainly long enough. This is bull.

Newsflash, the wagon on your scumbuddy is not going anywhere, even if you don't look at it.

When I made this post I was angry at you for your dodging and misgendering. The last line was a direct answer to that.

What did I dodge? I answered you in my very next posts (within 2 hours of each other) after you asked the question. Also, please explain which wagon you're talking about, and how I shifted from scum here to null later on. Or are you saying that it was posted in anger and so I should just "ignore" the inconsistency?

Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

You asked why I was pushing Krypt and not you about the Jedo suspicions when you were the one doing it most, basically. But I was pushing Krypt because his main point against Jedo was that Jedo hammered 46 mins before the deadline. So if you weren't pressuring Jedo for the hammer, there's your answer.

It was Pack who hammered the first day. Are you referring to something else?

HFHDSFIDUSHFD
Yes read Jedo as Packbat in all those sentences. I think my wires got crossed (probably about what Nacho was first asking about) somewhere down the line.

@Nacho - were you asking why I found Krypt suspicious for pressuring Packbat or why I found him suspicious for reversing his Jedo read all of a sudden?

If its the second one - as I now suspect it is - then your read changed and you gave a reason (his stubbornness) for it. It's clear that you lessen the pressure on him as the day goes on so it doesn't look like a sudden shift.

Krypt's read changed, but pretty much all of his direct interactions with Jedo up to that point in his ISO had him seeing Jedo as scum, or not-town. Then when he places himself against the wagon, he says Jedo's play has been "more neutral than scum" -- but he spent the first half of his ISO outlining

why

Jedo's play was scummy. He doesn't say why his read changes - he in fact retroactively tries to change how he read Jedo from the start. That's why Krypt's changing-read of Jedo is scummy, and yours isn't.

[AurorusVox]

So uh... why didn't someone hammer?

Sure, it'd be awfully scummy, but

no one even demanded he claim.

Instead he was left to sit at L-1 for a while, until we lynched Setael.

I think the bolded is one of the best points in this line of thinking - if Seacore was town, one of the scum could easily have declared a hammer intent to get a claim out of him. I remember Krypt saying he would hammer Seacore once the discussion had quietened down, but he never asked for a claim at all...combined with my scumread of Krypt, this seems to stick out.

Urgh. I gave Seacore town points when Krypt didn't hammer him (based on Krypt's fear of being seen as responsible for a mislynch - he obviously thinks there's something bad about the hammer vote, since he pushed Packbat on it at the start of D2) but really, it looks like I should have considered given him scumpoints for it instead. The fact Set flipped goon means that Seacore could feasibly be a scum PR, and that's why Krypt did nothing. Hmm.

Scum suspects: Krypt - Seacore - one of [Doom/Llama]

---

GreyICE and I were discussing DB and LF last night. I can see reasons for finding them both scummy and townie, and they've done similar things with slight/subtle differences...I don't really they're both scum together because the move against Set was quite similar and I don't

really

think scum would follow each other so closely...

-

Doom

had Set as 3rd scum behind Seacore (#2) but voted for Set anyway - which I read as a potential bus. And he also tried to link Set to me before the flip, which sounded like he

knew

Set would flip scum and could be him trying to maximise the fallout from the lynch...
- Grey gave him townpoints for this

because

he could have justified voting Seacore at a point when it would have prevented Set getting lynched.

-

Llama

I've had see-saw issues with throughout the game. But after Set flipped scum, I gave her townpoints for pushing Set instead of Seacore pretty much consistently. If Seacore was scum, then this obviously changes.
- Contrary to the above, Grey thought it looked more like a bus of Set and a whiteknighting of Sea...that is a possibility but I think LF could have easily voted for Seacore instead.

Grey

- how does the above change with you now thinking of Seacore as scum again?

---

Vote: Kryptinen

My strongest read. Seacore is next strongest, and I put him second partly because some of the reason I suspect him is based on Krypt being scum; and I'm seesawing between Doom and LF, so I'm going to wait and see what happens there during today.

[AurorusVox]

Krypt: you announced intention to hammer further down the line, after the discussion had run its course, afaict.

I can't make out if you're in favour of a Nacho lynch today. You say his lynch will give us zero information, but also that he'll be a liability tomorrow if we happen to mislynch today...are yo confident that we can lynch scum today? Because your lack of vote suggests otherwise.

[AurorusVox]

And sorry about the s/he confusion. I'm terrible with genders ._."

[AurorusVox]

I've stated this already, but this point is incredibly flawed. The only people who had opportunity to hammer were Nacho, Doom, Llama and Kryptin. LLama had no chance of asking for a claim

eight

days before deadline on someone that he stated minimal previous suspicion towards, Nacho has no motivation to quick-lynching anyone as it puts more focus towards him, Krypt had opportunity to ask for a hammer however doing so casts suspicion on him and I know I'm town. This effectively means that if Seacore is town there was absolutely no way that scum could ask for a claim or state intention to hammer making the point against him moot.

Perhaps. I don't think asking for a claim would have generated as much suspicion as you say - predominantly in the case of Krypt - since he had expressed his desire to lynch Seacore later on anyway.

AurorusVox -

Explain your thoughts on the Twistedspoon slot please.

I read it as town. There are reasons for this but I will only share them if TS is in imminent danger of a lynchin'.

---

@Reg - Not claiming, yet my role is 100% confirmable. Glass for whatever reason decided to claim it pregame, which I completely disagree with having done, but can see the justification for it. My quote on my lifespan likely being tied to the longevity of myself comes from what my role is, again quite obvious upon my death, but yes im not VT, and my role is formatted exactly as Powers was.

^LF gains towncred if Glass' neighbours can confirm his role was claimed pregame.

However, this is just awful:

check out how long he danced around the Set vote while trying to see if he could tip momentum in the direction of Sea.

"How long" probably being a week seeing as I was OUT OF THE COUNTRY WITH NO ACCESS TO THE INTERNET and thus COULD NOT change my Sea vote for Set.

Friday 6th May, 2:41pm
My first mention of the Setael/Seacore issue: I say that they're equally scummy, and vote Seacore since his wagon was leading, I was leaving for holiday, and I wanted my vote to be useful.

Friday 6th May, 4:59pm
Watching what Setael does regarding the Seacore wagon.

Friday 6th May, 9:53pm
Announcing that I'm going on holiday and that Setael and Seacore are equally scummy (as I had already said before).

...

Saturday 14th May, 10:11pm
Return from holiday, vote for Setael.

Explain why you're trying to use my V/LA as an excuse to vote for me, LF.

[AurorusVox]

I also forgot AV was on V/LA so that lessens some of the points against him that I raised. Still dislike that his main justification for pushing Sea over Set was that Sea was closer to a lynch, I think this ends up as simple as AV and Krypt are opposite alignments, since both town means its something wierd like a doom-TS pairing, which I guess I can see... but dont like a whole lot.

When the two players are doing the exact same thing, what other justification is there? I hardly "pushed" Seacore. I voted him, made a few points about how I would be

equally

interested in a Setael lynch, and then went away.

Seacore: do you think the early claim from Glass makes Llama's slot seem more protown, or is it null based on the fact that the role could be either alignment?

---

I read it as town. There are reasons for this but I will only share them if TS is in imminent danger of a lynchin'.

Considering I'm having trouble seeing both Llama and TS as town and LLamas recent posts have been slight-town tells I really want you to go into your town-tells on TS.

Okay. Like Glass, TS also claimed his role N0. As with Glass, I treat this as a towntell because it seems silly for scum to pigeon hole themselves into a certain role that might lead to them being caught out.

---

@Grey and AV - What did wicked talk about N1?

Wicked asked for a scumlist from me; he also said he was beginning to find Setael less scummy, and that he was beginning to revise some of his townreads (he didn't say which ones). We also talked about my concerns with him "forgetting" scum had a NK, and how he had Glass as "obvScum" but had quickly stopped wanting the slot lynched after you replaced him (but before you had made any posts).

[AurorusVox]

I believe he also claimed to Nacho, so perhaps Nacho can weigh in on whether he sees it as a towntell or not.

Your note about "confirms role; does not confirm alignment" is a pertinent one. TS' role does not confirm his alignment. However, it is, power or otherwise, non-visiting; so if TS was lying and was really scum, there's the chance that he'd end up trackable or watchable if he was ever required to submit a kill (or indeed any other action if he was a scum PR) and get caught out and not be able to back out of it by claiming a visiting PR. This is what I mean by "pigeon-hole"; if he had claimed a visiting role, I'd treat the early claim it as more null, certainly, because then he would be able to do more than just sit there as scum without compromising his claim.

You've given me doubts and made me less sure than before :\ I don't think TS played very townish in-thread, so now I don't know how much faith to put in the early claim as a towntell. OTOH I'm wondering if this is scum pressure to undo any scrap of towncred on TS' part, and secure an easy mislynch. Ultimately, TS isn't at the top of my "to lynch" list yet.

[AurorusVox]

I believe he also claimed to Nacho, so perhaps Nacho can weigh in on whether he sees it as a towntell or not.

It's definitely a towntell.
There's no scum in this playerlist that would give him that fakeclaim, and he sure as hell wouldn't think it up himself.

Good. I've been ignoring TS' scumminess for most of the game so I'm glad I wasn't mistaken in doing it.

---

I guess Krypt is the way to go. Maybe I was indeed on to something early D1

Will I finally get my Krypt wagon? =3

---

1) Ignore Set
2) Vote set with no reason
3) Backoff quickly to go back to rereading Set/Sea
4) Jump to TS while still attacking Set/Sea playstyle
5) Threat to hammer Sea, Set slips to third suspect for unknown reasons. This is especially bad given the exchanges that Doom had been having with Set to me.
6) Is happy with a Set or Sea lynch, calls for TS vig

This echoes my own feelings on DB. I was discussing this with Grey last night, and I said that DB having Set as third place yet somehow still coming through to vote for Set instead of Seacore (just as the tides were turning) looked like a bus when he realised Seacore wans't getting lynched.

---

I still believe you should claim in your next post.

Why are you so desperate for LF to claim? There's no need for him to claim, unless someone is waiting to hammer. Besides, Seacore has already said that his claim doesn't prove his alignment, so outing the role won't help you assess LF either way. It will just tell the scum what role he has.

[AurorusVox]

This echoes my own feelings on DB. I was discussing this with Grey last night, and I said that DB having Set as third place yet somehow still coming through to vote for Set instead of Seacore (just as the tides were turning) looked like a bus when he realised Seacore wans't getting lynched.

If you're going to make a comment such as this I would appreciate if you could comment on the fact that I pointed out the entirety of Llama's post was crap.

I will gladly comment on it, but I felt that LF may have wanted the first bite, so to speak.

The specific point that I have raised I don't feel you have adequately covered, and I doubt you can cover it since you "can't answer" for DB due to your own Seacore townread. But let's try anyway; here's what you said:

I can't answer thiis, one I have no idea why Doom threatened to hammer Sea because I read Sea as town.

- DB has Seacore as a higher suspect than Setael.
- Setael wagon gains more momentum.
- DB votes Setael despite having TWO other people ahead of him in terms of scumminess

That looks like bussing after people leave the Seacore wagon alone.

Why are you so desperate for LF to claim? There's no need for him to claim, unless someone is waiting to hammer. Besides, Seacore has already said that his claim doesn't prove his alignment, so outing the role won't help you assess LF either way. It will just tell the scum what role he has.

I believe the reason is incredibly obvious and is also the reason why I'm currently attempting to push a mass-claim. Both of my major suspects have apparently claimed PRs in the pre-game therefore I would like to attain more information in respect to their claims to be able to properly judge them. Considering the fact I have town-reads on close to everyone else if there's a time that I want to know I have to rethink and reanalyse the game it's now.

I understand the time issue, and that seems more suited to your requests for massclaim. But I'm not sure how LF's specifically will help considering it's already been said that it doesn't confirm his alignment. If anything, Feysal is the one you should be pushing to claim since that has more of an impact on his alignment than anything...

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: I should have added, "the question isn't so much why he threatened to hammer, as why he eventually voted for Setael."

[AurorusVox]

I would like for you to explain in what way reducing the number or votes on the wagon gaining momentum at the point where it needed it most to vote elsewhere is a scum-tell.

The Seacore wagon was

losing

momentum in favour of the Setael wagon when Doom voted.

[AurorusVox]

No, because such a shift in momentum would be the perfect time for DB to have bussed.

[AurorusVox]

1. A reasonable answer is that he had hoped that the Seacore wagon would take off. I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to you. My qualm with this line of thinking was that I wasn't sold on Seacore town (which my argument kinda requires). But Nacho has made a convincing case for Seacore town, and so I'm willing to table Seacore as scum for now.
2. I don't treat replacing out as an alignment tell at all. Scum and town can become equally busy. Besides, any town cred he gained would remain attached to the slot; it doesn't leave with him. This point sure does look like padding with which you're trying to undermine my argument, maybe deflecting onto the replacement out in the hope of misdirecting my case. What relevance do you think the replace out really has?

[AurorusVox]

1. Two reasons; firstly, the timing is different in the case of DB - he was following the shift, not causing it. Secondly, other people found Setael

more scummy

than Seacore and voted appropriately, whereas DB found Seacore (and TS) scummier than Setael but didn't vote for Seacore.

2. Balance against this town-cred the fact that Nacho voted for DB, I called him scum, and Llama also expressed an interest in the wagon towards the end of the day, and I don't think DB would have made it through today on low activity. I really don't think his replacement out is a good defence or a towntell in any way. As for your bullet points in response to Llama, I've already said that I'm leaving that to Llama since it was his post you're responding to. We're discussing my main concern now anyway so I see no need to respond to those other points yet; my problem with your slot is independent of the other points Llama has raised.

---

This thread needs more Kryptinen. Krypt: what's your opinion of LlamaFluff and Regfan?

[AurorusVox]

@Everyone

, do you think there's a possibility mafia could be limited to killing someone they're next to?

I know this isn't true as Wicked was wedged between Jedo/GreyICE and I.

But if

you

think its true, that means that last night's kill could have

only

come from you or Seacore; if you read Seacore as town, then why are you even considering this as a possibility?

Been pondering over the fact that TS claimed a PR pre-game, I have great difficulty believing that TS replaced out of a game where he was a town-pr and we had just lynched a mafia. His replacing out has nothing to do with real-life taking it's toll because he's still playing in multiple, multiple other games.

This could have had something to do with it:

If you are town please ask to be replaced by someone who will read and try to play. You are doing neither.

It looks like you've realised that pushing the easy mislynch isn't going to be so easy, and so you've turn to smearing his replacement out...despite the fact that it was

requested

by a player that you read as town.

---

This thread needs more Kryptinen. Krypt: what's your opinion of LlamaFluff and Regfan?

My read on Llama is null right now. I'd do an ISO if I had time. His play has been steadily slipping trough out the game from the town read I had on him on night one.
Regfan is scummy for reasons already stated by people other than me.

Is there a reason you're not voting for Regfan if he's scummy?

This reads as Krypt trying to stay off a buddy's wagon, much like she did with Setael. I looked through Krypt's ISO for mentions of Doom. There weren't very many;

ISO #11 - poking NS about his Doom vote.
ISO #12 - echoes Doom's question to Jedo
ISO #13 - again mentions that NS had no reason for his Doom vote.
ISO #16 - mentions possible scum motivation behind Doom's actions - kinda out of nowhere. Potential distancing as she doesn't follow up and flat out

call

DB scummy.
ISO #36 (1/2) - attacks DB completely out of nowhere. Literally no mention of him as an actual scumread before this post, in which she calls him "(scum disappointed in a failed mislynch?"). Note that she's still leaving a way out with the question mark.
ISO #36 (2/2) - despite calling DB scum she now echoes his question for the second time.
ISO #40 - now believes that scum are direction the attention onto DB, which assumes DB is town.

And then there's the recent post (ISO #42) where Doom is scum again. But again, I will stress that there's no vote to accompany it.

---

I continued looking at the interaction angle. Doom mentions Krypt a lot more, starting in ISO #4 and ISO #5 where he seems to find Krypt suspicious. This creeps up again in ISO #7.

But in ISO #6 he questions why Jedo is voting for Krypt; this pressure continues in ISO #9; again in ISO #11; he flat out defends Krypt against Seacore in ISO #12 and ISO #13; plus pressures NS for his Krypt L-1 vote in ISO #13.

But in ISO #17 he seems to be directing Seacore onto Krypt as a good lynch all of a sudden?

In the mean time, Wicked pressured Doom for not voting Krypt here and here; and LF pressures Doom for it here.

Then much later in his ISO #55 he seems well aware that people have left their vote on Krypt for a long time, trying to imply that this could be seen as scummy; says my Krypt case is no good in ISO #74 but quickly retracts this in ISO #75 which makes me think he didn't want to get into a long debate about Krypt's scumminess for fear of bringing attention to it.

And now we have Regfan who is calling Krypt town based in part on their QT - which we, of course, can't see - and also admits that he can't really put his read into words beyond calling it obvTown. Sorry but I haven't read it as obvTown at all. The one solid point he gives is Krypt's frustration, which I don't really understand as a towntell...

All in all, I'm fairly confident that these two players are scumbuddies based on their interactions with one another.

If the people on the Reg wagon won't join me in voting Krypt, then I'll gladly

Unvote; Vote: Regfan

(L-2 I think)

[AurorusVox]

But if

you

think its true, that means that last night's kill could have

only

come from you or Seacore; if you read Seacore as town, then why are you even considering this as a possibility?

I never stated I believe it's true however considering the fact I've never played in a setup such as this before and GI stated he has I'm intersted in hearing other peoples thoughts on the matter.

Do you believe it's true or do you believe it's false? If false, then why bring it up? If true, then try to pretend you don't?

I've played with Twisted in several games as well as observed others of his, people have asked him to replace out several times, he never has so yes I do find the fact he replaced out suspicious, you find it scummy to bring that up?

Are those on-going games or have they finished? If they're finished, what was his alignment? The fact that he's denied requests in other games is definitely noteworthy, so no, I don't find it as scummy now that you've said that. I don't agree with your assessment but I can see the value in bringing it up.

Can you be any more fucking stupid? Seriously? Why the fuck would I be asking the mod if mafia share QTs if I was mafia with Krypt, heck why would I at all as mafia?

But we only have your word for that, don't we? And even if you DID ask, maybe there were seven unique views and you were worried that one of the town might have a PR related to spying on QTs. Sorry but I'm not going to just blindly believe everything you say.

I'll respond to the rest of this in the morning when I'm fully awake and not pissed the fuck off.

[/quote]
Is this sort of language meant to scare me off your lynch? :\

[AurorusVox]

But we only have your word for that, don't we? And even if you DID ask, maybe there were seven unique views and you were worried that one of the town might have a PR related to spying on QTs. Sorry but I'm not going to just blindly believe everything you say.

Think for a second, why would I make something like that up.

To bounce back on it as proof of your towniness as you're doing; or perhaps you're not lying about asking the mod, but are lying about your reasons for asking; - as I said above, maybe you feared that you were being spied on, not by scum, but by a town PR.

Is this sort of language meant to scare me off your lynch? :\

Apologies for the language, I've just had an awful day.

(Hope you have a better day tomorrow)

[AurorusVox]

1. I don't understand what you're attempting to gain from this, kryptinen is asking NS his reasoning behind an unexplained vote. Is x asking y about his vote on z likely to lead towards x or z being mafia, no.

My point is that Kryptinen seemed to be subtly defending DB by pressuring NS for his reasons.

2. In what way is echoing someone elses question allignment indicavtive? What are you even attempting to bring up here.

It's about a sense of interest. Above he was defending your slot; here he's trying to show how your slot is acting pro-town by reinforcing the questions he's asking. He could have just asked the question himself; instead he made sure to mention DB when asking it. It gives me partner-vibes.

4. You've pulled this out of context, krpyt was responding to Wickeds remarks.

Fair enough; but as I said, when he talks about scum motivation, yet doesn't see a reason to call DB scummy beyond that "possibility", it

could

be indicative of distancing.

5. She doesn't attack Doom, she states that tunnelling is anti-town, there's a massive difference. Nice misrep though.

...she does attack Doom. She outright says "(scum disappointed in a failed mislynch?") which explicitly is talking about Doom as scum.

6. Just because you believe someones actions are anti-town doesn't mean you can't agree with them on such a basic question such as the one in this scenario, it being who did Sea prefer to have lynched.

She doesn't say just anti-town. She actually says "scum".

7. Again unsure what you're attempting to state here.

Before she was saying that Doom was scum. Yes, there was a question mark there, but the thought of DB scum was still predominantly in his mind in the above post. And here, she's saying scum are directing attention onto DB, which has to assume DB as town. The two ideas don't add up.

I could continue to go through all of your examples but there really is no point, you're attempting create linkages where linkages aren't and then forcing them by quoting every time Doom mentioned Krypt regardless of the context.

I explicitly made sure to quote

every

time Krypt mentioned Doom. That was my point. The above is every mention he makes of you. Hardly much there.

And now we have Regfan who is calling Krypt town based in part on their QT - which we, of course, can't see - and also admits that he can't really put his read into words beyond calling it obvTown. Sorry but I haven't read it as obvTown at all. The one solid point he gives is Krypt's frustration, which I don't really understand as a towntell...

The main basis for my town-read is the conversation the QT however her attitude there and here are VERY different, she stated an entire reads list last night however coming into today she hasn't attempted to state her thoughts once.

What do you make of this differing attitude then? Seeing as Krypt isn't sharing her read list, maybe you can share them with us?

I'm staying with my aunt for the next few days;
Going to be V-LA 28th-30th

[AurorusVox]

I come back from V/LA and all my dreams are coming true!

Unvote;
Vote: Kryptinen

What's the benefit of massclaiming today over tomorrow? Basically it seems to revolve around Llama's role. If there are five people who want to know Llama's role, then fine, wagon him and get his claim. Pestering around asking for it just seems like a short cut to that end, because Regfan can't get the full support for it.

@Reg - maybe I've gone into the ISO

looking

for connections and found some that might not be there entirely. But you can't deny the fact that Krypt barely engaged with Doom, and Doom was similarly "distant" from Krypt (most of it revolved around asking Doom about Krypt, not Doom mentioning things explicitly himself). I think there's enough there to sell me on the connection through the general tone of all the posts, even if "not all" contribute directly to a potential connection.

[AurorusVox]

Why do you call it a "risk" that he'll get lynched when you think he's scum? Shouldn't his lynch be a good outcome fypov?

I've been suspicious of Krypt since D1. I had a post that explained my case on her at length already. Plus today when she could post, she offered very little content, and this lack of firm reads - especially given that she supposedly has a solid enough scumlist to share in her QTs - looks to me that she's trying to fly under the radar and not comment on anything at all.

[AurorusVox]

I think it's fairly obvious that I am by no means certain of my scum-reads otherwise I would have placed a vote and been pushing the lynch, I clearly stated the risk of him getting lynched is if I believe his claim when it occurs.

But the immense downside that you're completely ignoring is that him claiming outs his role to scum who might right now NOT know what his role is. If you want to know it, it should be because you think he's scum and needs to be lynched. If you think he's town you don't need to know it. If you're not sure, as it seems you're suggesting, then judge from what he's posted, not some claim that Seacore has been pretty explicit about how it doesn't confirm alignment either way.

Plus today

when she could post

, she offered very little content, and this lack of firm reads - especially given that she supposedly has a solid enough scumlist to share in her QTs - looks to me that she's trying to fly under the radar and not comment on anything at all.

Are you honestly attempting to say that you believe Krypt is faking or overexaggerating her VLA issues?

I'm pretty clearly judging her posts that she made prior to her V/LA.

[AurorusVox]

Such as this post which reads to me as Krypt refusing to give any firm reads or opinions of her own.

And yes I understand what you're saying is your aim, but unless there are four other people who want to see LF lynched today, it won't matter much what your read on him is, will it? And the end result is that scum get more info.

[AurorusVox]

Reg, I get it, and I understand that you say you need more information to proceed, but what

I'm

saying is that IF you got a claim and decided it made LF likelier scum, that as far as I can see, LF isn't getting lynched today as it stands anyway, and you've needlessly outed him, helping scum.

Grey: why is Seacore more likely scum than Krypt or Regfan in your opinion?

[AurorusVox]

Exchange 1

I haven't heard a convincing reason given by anyone who unvoted him.

Have you been reading the thread? Power claimed watcher. Watchers are easily confirmable. Now put two and two together.

Read my post again. "Him" in what you quoted is referring to Jedo, not Power.

And no, I'm not caught up. As I stated.

Alright, I suppose that makes sense. Anyways, the reason for my unvote was that it seems to match up with his meta somewhat (Not perfectly but still enough to give it a pass) and it seems to work sometimes. The only issue I'm having with him now is that he kept it on for so long.

That first exchange does nothing for me. DB mistakes who Set is talking about and misses that he's catching up, conveniently making the entire line of questioning moot.

I don't like this - that first of all he feels he needs to give a reason for unvoting Jedo (I think scum who are bussing would be more likely to do this) and second that it's such a weak reason and he's just assuming about the meta.

How is it weak? If someone was playing overly well except for on thing that was part of his meta, would you still find them (as) scummy? Sure I still don't like that he kept his BW vote on for so long and I'm still looking closely at him but other than that, he seems to be playing pretty town-like. Secondly, from some games on here, he already proved (to a point) that it was his meta that caused him to bus.

Doombunny votes Quaroth saying he's choosing between Pack and Quar for posting few opinions or new info. Doesn't mention Jedo at all. Based on his post when switching, Doom would've been the most likely to re-vote Jedo after the watcher claim. Not mentioning Jedo at all here is suspect.

I don't find him so scummy anymore. Sue me.

@Set- Other than the long bandwagon on Krypt, do you have any other reasons for thinking Jedo is scum?

I know that its a joke, but something seems off about his begging for Jedo votes. Eh, its probably nothing.

^This is much the same. "Something seems off" and "Eh, its probably nothing" are about as non-committal distancing as you can get. Setael is poking DB, sure, but there's little bite in it.

Please elaborate. What do you find town-like about his posts?

His posts seem to come from a pro-town stance. His defenses of himself are complete and do make sense and more recently, he is beginning to do more and more scumhunting sch as his case on Twisted that is full and detailed (Which is more than I can say about some people) and he seems to be wanting and trying to catch scum rather than just sitting out in the background hiding from any more pressure.

[/quote]
^"Please elaborate" - there's no real pressure to these questions. I mean, are you saying this looks like Setael pressuring a townie rather than a buddy? Or that Doom is pressuring Setael (which I don't see at all).

And need I bring up Doom's unmotivated vote for Setael near the end of the day again? He had Set as

third

scumread, but somehow still voted for him after the winds had turned and it was clear that Setael was going to be the lynch. That looks like bussing for town cred, as I've already said before (and said to you in the QT).

---

Vote: AV

ISO #41, wagons he pushed were lame, and Setael avoids mentioning him like the black plague. Plus Vox just feels off. Yes I'm sheeping Llama's opinion.

The wagons I pushed there were:

-Krypt (who I find scummy along with two other people (we can't all be scum, eh)...)
-Llama (who you call scummy...so why is that a "lame" wagon?)
-Power (who PackbatTown pushed; who Doom (who you call town) dabbled in; and additionally it was a move that Setael gave me scumpoints for...)

Plus after the debaucle between Seacore and Set, and once my V/LA was over, I threw my weight behind getting Setael lynched when I could have just adamantly stayed on Seacore.

---

Krypt or Reg get my vote at deadline.

[AurorusVox]

^woah why is my writing so tiny? O_O"

I tried to edit it to fix it, but I don't see any tags that would explain it. Very weird!

[AurorusVox]

What is this I don't even

@Mod, Kryptinen is voting Regfan.

Nice catch. Thanks again. VC updated.

Llama, state your case.
Nacho, state your case.
Grey, revoke your vote.

[AurorusVox]

Krypt, Reg, (NL) >>> Seacore

Considering it's MYLO NL is always an option. If we mislynch me today, Nacho wins with scum tomorrow.

[AurorusVox]

So either we have two scum or Nacho is lying? Would now be a good point for Nacho to be honest about his role then?

[AurorusVox]

No one has actually made a case against me yet.

I'll claim if I reach L-1.

[AurorusVox]

I have nothing fancy to claim.

Vanilla Townie

I

can

tell you that it will be interesting to see what Kryptinen claims.
Maybe it will make clear why I've been somewhat tunnelling her all game.

[AurorusVox]

I do have information about Krypt's role (not alignment).
That information has nothing to do with my role, and everything to do with hers.

[AurorusVox]

I learnt about it N0. I have been suspicious of it since the start of the game.

Last night we talked a little about TS' early claim to me, and the fact that TS had been viewed as scummy during the game. I didn't want to talk too much about the game before Feysal had read over it for fear of colouring his views, and as he made reading the QTs the priority, that's what we focussed on talking about.

Also, I direct your attention to:
"E2) At the start of the game, the player list will be shuffled by a random list sorter (via random.org)."

[AurorusVox]

Krypt wasn't particularly townie in her QT interactions with me. While she didn't out-and-out rolefish me, I felt like she expected some sort of claim from me since she'd shown her hand.

I was also surprised when she didn't neighbour me n1 as she implied she'd be revisiting me. I guess that she didn't want to answer any more questions. But now that she's said she visited PR, I can see scum motivation all over - to find out who he would be watching so that the scum could avoid getting caught.

Llama immediately assuming its a townclaim is disconcerting.

[AurorusVox]

#1. Make sure it wasn't a gambit (unlikely I admit)? If you and/or Seacore are town, maybe scum had their eyes on you or Seacore as a possible kill...? But the main motivation for N2 is:
#2. Maybe KryptScum wanted to see what PR's reads were. No point killing a limited watcher off if all his reads are wrong. Makes me more confident in Seacore town, actually.

[AurorusVox]

Reg, the role itself doesn't make her scum. But the way she acted that first night were suspicious. It's one of the reasons I pushed you when you said her QT activities were townish last night.

[AurorusVox]

The topics went blue for me? vOv

I notice a lack of Llamarama on your list, but I'm guessing you're just putting yourself last yeah?
I like the sound of confirmed town

/attempting to not discuss anything else until the claiming is over and done with

[AurorusVox]

I can definitely go for a Regfan lynch today.

There are connections with Krypt and the position position-move implicates him for reasons that Seacore has already outlined.
Also, I don't see a reason for Seacore-scum to move himself into the (potential) line of fire, especially with Grey being so suspicious of him during the last few days.

---

Grey was also quite adamant about lynching Nacho if he claimed VT.

Nacho: why gambit Survivor as VT? I could have understood it as a PR.
But as VT, you're essentially helping the scum narrow their potential-PR kill pool by one for every night your survive.

---

Llama: what do you make of Nacho gambitting as VT?

Grey, Feysal and I were all hoping he was really a PR who was faking Survivor (as a fake VT) out of fear that Glass or TS might have been scum.
The fact he'd be honest about his gambit from Night Zero is unsettling; if he's town, the whole point is presumably to get scum to ask him to co-win with them. But if either of you two had been scum, his plan would have been ruined from the very get-go, and it would only have had its drawbacks. Almost as if he knew that you two aren't scum :\

---

In short:
I'd support a {Nacho/Regfan} lynch today.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Regfan

You're right. I guess there's no point waiting around questioning Nacho today if Reg is scum.

[AurorusVox]

So long as the game doesn't stagnate, I'm happy to see the day continue. It was starting to go stale, but if Nacho are Reg are going to be posting then that should moisten (?) things.

@Nacho: Are you saying that you consciously decided to attempt a WIFOM feat against your neighbours by claiming VT to them? If my maths is right, your gambit had those protown repercussions at MOST 2/12 (~16%) of the time. I.e. you potentially pulled kills off PRs if your neighbours were scum, but the chance you were instead helping to direct them to PRs was much higher than that. Did you consider this at all?

@Llama: since you're here, could you respond to my points about Nacho's gambit?

[AurorusVox]

(A): Doesn't mention why he's decided to stop voting krypt, and the switch itself is pretty awkward; he hadn't mentioned krypt for sometime, and was sort of floating around for a little while before this.

I quite clearly do mention it. Powerrox's vote was godawful.

(B): After the Quaorath lynch. Seems like an early attempt to get someone lynched for bad play, manages to distance from his krypt read a little more, but it remains his "second strongest read".

Krypt was still my second strongest scumread, but I saw ZERO reason for TownPowerrox to claim the way he did. Putting your claim out in bits and pieces "accidentally", made it look like a surefire fakeclaim.

(C): Here, AV pretty much uses krypt as a placeholder vote. There's a short period of questioning, a reread, and then... a Seacore vote, and no reasoning as to why suspicion of krypt was dropped off.

The reason is self-evident. Because Seacore was in that spat with Setael, which was the scummiest thing in-thread at that time.

There's also this handy quote wall:

Spoiler: Tunneling

Maybe I'm just a grumpy asshole cos it took so long to get an answer.

I'm still not happy with Krypt but it could be tunnelvision or irritation at having to keep repeating my questions to get a straight answer

My tunnelling could be to blame for this.

I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday.

Maybe I'm blinkered by tunnel vision after all...

Shall we just ignore everything else I've said about why I found him scummy?
Or shall we just counterbalance my attempts to get him lynched with your persistent attempts to derail the Krypt wagon yesterday?
You helped get Setael - the goon - lynched, but you were not interested in the Krypt wagon in the slightest.

I think that if AV was genuine, he wouldn't fencesit on his suspicions so much; he'd push to get krypt lynched with all of his might, or he'd consider her town. And I seriously hope that I'm not the only one who finds it suspicious that AV couldn't get krypt lynched for three days, but the moment someone else starts a wagon, krypt gets lynched. I've never seen a town on town or town on scum tunneling session go on this long without one of the two dying; the only times it occurs is when both are scum, and neither really wants the other lynched.

A significant part of my initial suspicions and the reason that I focused on her for so long were the N0 interactions. But I didn't want to out-and-out say that because I was curious who else she'd try to neighbourize and didn't want to influence that, or how she talked in it. Guess when she hit PR she didn't need to fish anymore. So if I sounded non-committal, it was only because I was pushing her with half the case, and felt I should downplay my tunnelling because I didn't want to admit why I was doing it.

I also continuously tried to get her lynched, but barely anyone else was interested in the wagon. It's not surprising it took this long to get her lynched when no one else really wanted to lynch her other than me for a long, long time.

I also find it pretty strange that krypt never turned on AV, or really made the effort to turn him off her. Maybe it's just because she was newscum, but she really didn't toss any dirt on him (apparently not even in QTs either), and she never tried to buddy up with him or anything. This tells me that she didn't perceive him as a threat, or that she really didn't know how to react.

She never "turned on" anyone that's still alive here. Look at her complete lack yesterday. "Oh I need to look at Llama moar" but then failing to follow that up at all is just one example.

Also worth noting is her fear of major wagons. She didn't vote for me because she barely ever took a significant place on the major wagons (the exception was the PR wagon that you yourself started). She never voted for Reg yesterday until there were no other votes there. She didn't hammer Seacore when she had the chance; hell, she didn't vote him even when the wagon shifted to Setael. She called out the hammer vote on Quar as scummy, which shows that in her mind, voting in a prominent position on major (mislynch) wagons is a cause for suspicion. This explains why she stayed off mine far better than your theory which could be said of anyone here.

---

Also, your reasons for trusting Seacore due to you not dying are shaky at best:

Wicked was a strong and obvtown player (who had declared suspicions of Seteal, which, incidentally, were starting to change, something he told me in the QT...)
Power was a claimed Watcher
Grey was a proven Vigilante

Are you suggesting scum would kill you off over any of these players?

Also, Grey and I discussed this N2 and we both agreed that you were probably a gambitting PR (I think he reckoned it was like, 80% chance; he said it was 10% likely you were gambitting scum and 10% an actual neutral survivor. He NOWHERE considered it as a VT gambit, and said unequivocally that if you claimed VT you should be the noose without a second thought.)

So. That kinda trashes that idea...

---

Like Seacore, I'm happy for a Nacho or a Regfan lynch today. I don't think we can lose this.

Reg is still scummy from previous days, and if scum moved themselves last night, between him and Seacore he comes out by far the worst. Also, I really don't believe he missed all the QT topic posts - I'm guessing here but LF/Seacore, did you ask him about the switch? My thought is, if he's scum he probably didn't fancy facing questions about that. I still maintain there are connections between Krypt and DB, and I

still

have an issue with Reg saying Krypt acted protown in the QTs. From the sounds of what Krypt said to him, he posted a bunch of non-committal reads. I also find it hard to believe that if Reg was town, Krypt didn't try to rolefish him like he tried on me.

As for Nacho, I would have been far more likely to read the gambit as town if he had been a PR. I think if he's scum, he was hoping to coast on towncred gained from pushing Setael (goon). He was arguing for KryptTown and was completely uninterested in his wagon yesterday (he definitely came across as very "coast"y then). Plus, he could have been WK'ing Seacore (Grey thought this too), and it looks like he "knew" Seacore is town, something that Feysal has touched upon above.

---

@Llama, are you referring to the change in name?

[AurorusVox]

LMP: Think you've got mine and Regfan's votes switched there ^^"

Fixed. Thanks

[AurorusVox]

But you used the vote as a way of getting out of an awkward situation (having your vote on krypt but not really having anything to say about her), and getting out of a promised reread. If PR's vote was so damn bad, you wouldn't just coast by on that, would you? You'd follow up on him. Did you? No. You sat on his wagon until he claimed, and then you switched back to krypt, no explanation.

I did follow up on it as much as I could. Here and here. Don't forget, PR basically disappeared after he was put under pressure. There was one post made between his vote and his distancing from the vote. I commented on that. I commented on him being a non-presence in thread. Then he claimed Watcher - which was a confirmable role - so I returned to my older vote on my second suspect. What's not been explained?

Krypt was still my second strongest scumread, but I saw ZERO reason for TownPowerrox to claim the way he did. Putting your claim out in bits and pieces "accidentally", made it look like a surefire fakeclaim.

The krypt read was pretty heavily weakened though, considering you opened it up with the whole "This might just be me tunneling again...", and the last thing you said on her was that she was leaving your scumlist because she as making a few decent points. Was there any explanation for that? No.

When I put her back at second scummiest at the start of D2, things had changed. For one thing, she didn't neighbour me N1 like she said she'd do. For another her Packbat hammer comment. For a third, I re-read her in ISO and saw the badthings in her interaction with Jedo. If it hadn't been for PR's failclaim distracting me, she'd have been my #1 suspect.

The reason is self-evident. Because Seacore was in that spat with Setael, which was the scummiest thing in-thread at that time.

I don't think the reason is self-evident. Why Seacore over Setael?

Because they were guilty of the exact same thing and his wagon had the most votes on it. I was going away for a week and wanted my vote to be useful. I also tried getting support for a Kryptinen wagon that day before I left.

Shall we just ignore everything else I've said about why I found him scummy?
Or shall we just counterbalance my attempts to get him lynched with your persistent attempts to derail the Krypt wagon yesterday?
You helped get Setael - the goon - lynched, but you were not interested in the Krypt wagon in the slightest.

You said a lot about why he was scummy, but you kept offsetting it with those little blurbs.
I tried to derail the krypt wagon by getting her buddy lynched. Somehow, I don't think that's too bad of a crime.

No. You tried to derail it by getting me mislynched.
And don't even imply you were suspicious of me and Kryptinen being buddies that day. That's a blatant lie, or you wouldn't have called the wagon dumb and stubbornly refused to get on board with it.

A significant part of my initial suspicions and the reason that I focused on her for so long were the N0 interactions. But I didn't want to out-and-out say that because I was curious who else she'd try to neighbourize and didn't want to influence that, or how she talked in it.

And how were you expecting to know who else she'd try to neighbourize?
And you were okay letting her go on and continue her business even though she was using the QTs as rolefishing grounds? Because you were curious?

I wasn't going to know but it would have been useful information later down the line if people claimed she'd neighboured them. We could have gotten some clears from it. But I'd have corrupted that by letting on too soon.

So if I sounded non-committal, it was only because I was pushing her with half the case, and felt I should downplay my tunnelling because I didn't want to admit why I was doing it.

Oh lord.
You purposely didn't push the case that hard because you didn't want to be questioned on it?

No. Read what I said.
I didn't push it too hard because that would have shown my hand regarding her role. The last two points you've quoted are connected (that's why they're in the same paragraph). Are you being dense on purpose?

I also continuously tried to get her lynched, but barely anyone else was interested in the wagon. It's not surprising it took this long to get her lynched when no one else really wanted to lynch her other than me for a long, long time.

They didn't want to because you were downplaying your case FAR too well.

So maybe I overdid it, but the points were still there. No one else wanted to pick up on the points I was making about her actually being scummy, it would have been quite easy for someone to say "No, AV, it's not just you're tunnelling, she is scummy." That wouldn't have made me show that I was onto something from the N0 topic. Also, fuck it, let's not pretend to be bigger than we are here, when I'm the only one saying it, well, I doubted myself. But I wanted to keep pushing the case because I still thought she was scum, and in recent games I'm trying to stick to my guns more when I think I've found scum (I used to be very self-doubtful and back off cases too easily). The fact I still wanted to push it, with people telling me I was tunnelling, made me doubt it again, which made me want to keep tunnelling which made me doubt it, etc etc etc.

Are you suggesting scum would kill you off over any of these players?

Hmmm... Power was a claimed, limited watcher who the scum didn't kill when he first claim FULL watcher.
GreyICE was a vigilante who killed his lurking neighbor over a claimed survivor, and who didn't kill N1.

Actually, I take your point on PR. (I find it strange he was killed if neither of his neighbours have been killed. Maybe scum had their eyes on killing LF down the line after he hinted at being a PR?) But I don't think scum would kill off a claimed survivor on the first night, in case you

were

a survivor.
And Grey was confirmed town. If you think you'd be killed over a confirmed townie then I want whatever it is you're smoking.

Personally, I'm wondering WHY scum would move themselves during the night. The last scum does NOT need that sort of attention in LyLo.

Regfan has all the reasons: if Grey has another shot, he might have turned it on her. He might have also wanted to keep LF and Seacore apart for whatever reason. Seacore's already gone into this.

Clearly either we're TvT'ing here, or you're trying to mislynch me while white knighting Regfan.
I'm looking forwards to Reg's promised read of our exchange, that might shed some light on which is more likely.

---

AV, the final mafia has to get through two days lynches with multiple power role claims out in the open therefore the final mafia would be more inclined to take some form of risk in an attempt to clear themselves. If anything Seacores move towards GreyICE would ressemble a gambit attempt from the mafia therefore I'm unable to determine how your town-read on Seacore stems from this.

Well, it would be a very brave gambit if it was from scum. If Grey had another shot, he had expressed suspicions of Seacore in-thread. Seacore putting himself there would have been hella-crazy. Grey was worried about losing to Seacore scum so I wholly believe he'd have shot Seacore if he'd had the chance. That's suicide for scum.

[AurorusVox]

Hi guys, sorry I'm pretty busy this weekend (a pal has come to stay) so I'm going to be a low presence til Monday.

Will read over what's here when I get rid of him.

[AurorusVox]

There is a theory I've been thinking about for why Regfan and Seacore were switched. We've been speculating that scum may have wanted to move away from GreyICE, which would implicate Regfan, but what if the mafia suspected him of being a neighbor doctor instead, and wanted to move him away so he could not protect GreyICE?

I think if anything, scum would have suspected Seacore, who as far as I can tell had purposefully been trying to give off PR tells to soak an NK. In this case, it makes little sense to put Seacore closer to GreyICE. Assuming scum had to move themselves, this only implicates Seacore as scum; assuming scum could move anyone, they could have moved Grey instead, and not risked Seacore-Doc. The only real motivation I can see for it is (a) Reg fearing a GreyICE shot or (b) Nacho trying to frame Reg because of (a).*

*there's also (c), Reg trying to WIFOM that it's (b), thereby masking his true intentions of (a), but let's not start down that path...

It occurs to me that the scum now need two mislynches to win, and that means if the last scum is in our lynch pool, they would need to ensure there were at least two other players lynchable to avoid a one-on-one with town. So far, I'd say it is Nacho whose case on AV looks most like an attempt to introduce another potential mislynch.

I'm glad you said this. I've been thinking about Nacho in light of Regfan, actually. IF Regfan is town, then Nacho switching - and thereby implicating - him, combined with Nacho "reading" Reg as town might have been designed to gain Nacho town cred from Reg by white knighting him. So he'd try to get me mislynched today with Reg's support, and then reverse his townread on Reg tomorrow, capitalising on other peoples' scumreads to get his second mislynch. If Reg was lynched today, Nacho looks good for reading him as town, and then continues to push on me tomorrow.

I'd be happy with Reg dying today and Nacho tomorrow.

I could go either one on either day. I know that I'm town so we can't lose if we lynch them both.

[AurorusVox]

How you could just completely drop the krypt suspicion while going after Powerrox, then returning to it after he claimed watcher like nothing had changed. I suppose that's my biggest problem with it.

You're not making sense. It's quite clear that I

didn't

completely drop it by the fact that I

returned to it like nothing had changed

. PR was being very scummy, moreso than Krypt at the time. When PR claimed Watcher, a

confirmable role

, it made sense to leave him be for the night and so I returned to the person who I was still suspicious of. I'd have just unvoted, or looked elsewhere, if I'd "completely dropped" my suspicions of Krypt.

Then why did you try to downplay your suspicions in the beginning?

How many times are you going to have me go over this?
(a) Krypt neighbours AV
(b) AV is very suspicious of Krypt.
(c) AV has inside info on Krypt
(d) AV wants to keep this a secret from scum for as long as possible because:
(i) It can be used to confirm people further down the line
(ii) It can catch Krypt out in a lie if she claims a different role
(iii) Krypt might continue to act scummy in her extra QTs, thus gaining the wagon more support
(iv) It doesn't give her a chance to STOP neighbourizing and call me a liar
(e) AV is told he is tunnelling
(f) AV uses his doubt as a mask for his additional info

They were both guilty of the same tell, but they both did things other than that. You didn't take any of either's past play into account?

No. I treated their double-bus fiasco as the most important bit. This was during a period when I had limited time on the internet so I didn't have a chance to go back and re-read the entire game/those players in ISO. Besides, the whole reason I found them both suspicious was because I thought they were DOUBLE-BUSSING so I didn't think it mattered which one I voted; I simply went for the larger wagon. When I came back from holiday, you'll see I then voted Setael because he was scummier than Seacore during the time I'd been away.

I wasn't impying that. I was implying that you were scum.
But that really wasn't the important part of the post, you know.

Then what was it? You're defending not voting Krypt by telling me you wanted to mislynch me, essentially. You straight up called her wagon dumb, but if you think I'm scum because I was bussing her, why didn't you think this and support the Krypt wagon yesterday?

You're far evolved from a player who's unsure of himself to the extent that he has to announce it in thread. And if people aren't buying what you're selling, you don't float around the thread and half-ass it until someone picks it up; you push it harder and call everyone idiots, or you drop the case and find someone else. It just reads like serious bussing when a scum has stayed in your 1st/2nd slot throughout the entire freaking game.

"Far evolved," eh? This is only my third town game after SAIII; in the first one I was killed N1 (Cults vs Masons which you were in, right?), in the other (Advance Wars Mafia 2), whilst I persistently tried telling people my case on scum (Fate), he just killed me off and no one else carried the torch. I also maintained a degree of paranoia about being wrong despite having an investigation result on him for that game too. So. Doubting myself is just my town game. As scum I know who's town and who's not so I can rid myself of that uncertainty. vOv

Clearly either we're TvT'ing here, or you're trying to mislynch me while white knighting Regfan.

Clearly we're either both town, or one of us are scum. I think that's how arguments usually work when there's one scum remaining.

Well, I said more than that, didn't I? I was more concerned with the "WK'ing Regfan whilst pushing my mislynch" angle.

---

I'm not at understanding the backhanded jabs that are being attempted to be thrown, what does the fact that Nacho helped push the Setal lynch (Goon) but not the Krypt lynch (PR) have to do with anything, even though Krypt was a PR her role was far from confirmable or strong meaning that essentially they were both goons. AV, are you attempting to suggest that Nacho was defending her soley because of her role?

Um. It gave Krypt an extra QT each night. She used that to talk to Powerrox. Twice. So he probably was telling her who he was Watching, or else why go back? That is far better than a Goon. But not only that; he pushed on Setael when the scum had three members alive, but didn't push Krypt when it would have gotten the scumteam down to 1 member and afforded town an extra mislynch. It's both the role and the situation.

AV, you're mispresenting the occurances of yesterday, the timing of Krypts vote on me wasn't a period where it was impossible that I was getting lynched, far from that her timing was opportunistic and read as an attempt to save herself via showing intention to vote and participate in the most likely mslynch of the day.

How so? I was the most likely mislynch yesterday, as I was the one who reached L-1.

You state that the discussion occured with GI with the agreement that there was minimal or no way that Nacho was indeed a VT therefore wouldn't his VT claim lead you to suspect him? If so what's with your continual doubt and mention of lines such as "Either this is TvT or you're mafia", lines such as that do nothing but leave you something to point back on later to defend yourself with.

Yes, I do highly doubt him, and his claim is one of the things I've mentioned in my suspicions of him, so I'm not sure what your point is when you suggest I've given it a free pass? I want to see him lynched equally as much as I want to see you lynched. I made that comment more to highlight his WK'ing of you than the TvT aspect. But, the TvT comment is strictly regarding our back and forth, and I mentioned that because I find it hard to disassociate his "wrongness" and look at it as objectively scummy; see SAIII again, where I constantly called SpyreX(scum) town despite his tunnelling on me all game.

When reading through I came across the quote listed below, my initial thought was to pass it of as nothing however re-reading it, it looks like Krypt is less than impressed at the amount of time and attention that AV has directed towards her even though there were alternate players who were giving her just as much ie. Seacore. The quote honestly reads as a subtle attempt to get AV to move elsewhere via giving him soft-ball questions to direct his attention towards.

I have some questions on my own: AurorusVox, why are you only focusing on me? What do you think about that L-1 vote, for example, and Jedi's not unvoting? (And I had not logged in since your question was posted, so I have not had any time to answer.)

If you think that was its purpose, then what do you make of the fact that I

didn't

stop pressuring him?

[AurorusVox]

If you legitimatly believe that the reasoning behind Krypt QT'ing Power was to find out who she was watching you would HAVE to beleive that I'm town because otherwise that's information that I could have attained and did attain, I asked Power who she was considering watching the night she died in which she stated Seacore.

And this again is something ONLY in the QT that we have no way of backing up.

There was never any real intention stated to have you lynched whereas there were multiple players showing strong intention to push towards me in which Krypt tagged along.

If there was no intention, why did I reach L-1 with someone (Seacore?) declaring an intent to hammer? You got only as far as L-2, so even with Krypt that made it to L-1 and no further.

What I'm failing to understand is if you suspect him so strongly for multiple multiple reasons stated already then why are you finding it 'difficult' to determine which of Nacho or myself is mafia?

Because I suspect you BOTH strongly for multiple reasons. You are both as scummy as each other. I thought that was clear?

I understand the intention to progress through this day and into the next but I urge you to refrain from doing so in a rushed manner such as this, there's no gain from a quick lynch whereas drawing the day out will force mafia to get more cut-throat and ruthless in regards to pushing a particular lynch otherwise it increases the chances that they themselves are placed on the lynch-block.

Do you realise deadline is now in ~2 days? It's not exactly a quick lynch any more, is it?

---

It frustrates me that no one has examined krypt's interactions with her buddies except for me. I think its a fairly strong point that she refused to even distance from Setael when she was going down, and her turning on Regfan before it was clear that she was going down was not the type of move scumkrypt would pull on her scumbuddy.

I examined her interactions with Regfan quite extensively. They were not good. Also, Krypt mentioned as much intent to hammer Setael (without doing so) as she did with Seacore, so I'm not sure how much faith you're putting in the "lack of Setael-distance" tell.

[AurorusVox]

By completely dropped, I meant stopped following up on suspicions. Normally, when a person still holds strong suspicions other than the one they are currently pushing, they don't ignore those strong suspicions. They push both in tandem, call them a scumteam, question both at the same time, whatever. But when you pushed PR, that followup on krypt really never occured. Yes, PR was scummy, but the almost complete dissapation of that krypt suspicion seem more fabricated and planned simply because a suspicion that carried you through Day 3 was able to be turned off and on like a light.

Well going back to look at the posts during the time I was voting PR, she didn't say a whole lot during that time that were anything to do with why I suspected her. A bunch of her posts were concerned with TS' "secret reason" which I knew about but didn't want to reveal, since it would have made the reason pointless (as you know, it was a gambit regarding the NS slot). She interfered with my questioning at one point which I didn't like, but beyond that I was talking with Wicked and following other avenues. She was still scummy for her earlier dodging, so my vote went back; but she was, at that point, asking other people questions. I don't like answering for other people so I let whoever she was talking to have their turn. And add to that the accusations of tunnelling and some V/LA on my part, and you can see why I'd start to widen my search as I caught up.

First of all, I have a major problem with your explanation because you are trying to use scum's night actions as a way to explain your own scummy actions. Town should never intentionally weaken their own suspicions of a player just because they want to keep some they think is scum's role hidden. Secondly, even if you managed to convince yourself that keeping krypts role hidden was a good idea, I don't see why you felt it was necessary to downplay your suspicions to do that. If you were questioned on your tunneling, then all you had to do was argue the points you did have. You didn't have to constantly pull the "well I might just be tunneling" card to do that. The reason I would think to keep krypts role from scum was because she might be a town pr and you wouldn't want her to get killed if it could be used for good. But this never crossed your mind?

I didn't see a good pro-town reason for Krypt to try to rolefish me. But yes, if she was town then of course it wouldn't be good to announce her role either. I didn't include that (and other similar ones; i.e. if she's town and I announce it then it might get a PR mislynched; she might stop using it altogether for pro-town purposes; her own neighbours might refuse to talk to her) because she's already flipped scum.
And okay, you don't like that I downplayed my suspicions, and in hindsight, I can probably agree with you that it would have been better to go full-force, but I did it here partly because I thought it was the right thing to do, and also because at times I was unsure of myself. On D3, when it got to crunch time, I didn't downplay them. But the issue is with my reasons for doing so, so:

As for the reasons you provided, I don't understand how (i) works, (ii) is OK, (iii) is weird because you could also gain more support from not downplaying your suspicions, and (iv) is just fucking scummy because that would mean you could stop scum from using their power AND getting into a 1v1 with scum early. The most interesting part of those reasons, though, is that all of them pretty much assume krypt scum even though you are trying to tell me about how unsure you were about it...

(i) works because she wouldn't neighbourize her own scumbuddies.
(iii) I get that you don't like that I downplayed my suspicions but see above etc.
(iv) I hadn't thought about it like that. A 1v1 trade would have been a much better outcome, actually, now that we *know* Krypt is scum.
I've already said that my points here are taking Krypt's flip into account. If you want me to run through all the reasons for why it was a bad idea if Krypt was town (which nullifies your point about (iv) in that case) then we can do that too. I didn't really think they were valid, since Krypt wasn't town.

Fair enough. Although the little "look at me voting set when I got back" is off; why are you pointing that out?

Because that was where I

did

take previous play into account, which was what you were asking about...?

No. I am saying that you are scum, and thus krypts scumbuddy.
I didn't vote krypt yesterday because I never reevaluated the town read of krypt I had in the beginning. And I really didn't feel the need, considering how scummily you were pushing her at the time.
The important part of that post was more attacks on your disclaimers. The rest was a smartass comment in response to the belief that you seem to hold that wrong=scum.

You not thinking Krypt was scum is not the only reason I find you scummy by a longshot.
So basically with this, you're saying that regardless of Krypt's alignment, I'm scummy, due to an activity that necessitates both parties being scum (bussing). This is where you lose me.

I will check your play in those games, but I've never regarded you as a player who couldn't stick with his convictions. In your first game, I killed you because you seemed like the type of player who would dtick with his convictions, and had a chance of forming the right ones. Certainly your confidence hasn't degraded from then...

I've always been good at arguing both sides of an argument, and as I've gotten better at arguing on here, I've started to WIFOM myself too many times. I've been on the money about scum and backed off plenty.

...which is saying nothing more than 'we are both town or one is scum'.

No, it is more. I'm addressing something specific about your play, i.e. the White Knighting attempt on Regfan. Your play makes sense as scum who knows that the scummy person being lynched is town and either wants their support today (which you got) or credit when they flip. Of course, the reason WK'ing is an option for you is because Reg is very scummy anyway, so I mentioned the alternative, that we're TvT'ing, because I still think Reg has a good chance of flipping scum. It's more than simply saying "hurr durr one of us is scum or neither are!".

[AurorusVox]

@Reg: please explain the second bit more slowly; I don't understand why a scumteam consisting of you and Krypt being unable to find out who Power was watching clears anyone?

[AurorusVox]

Sure. You're attempting to state that the reasoning for Krypts use of power was to extract X information from Power while also accusing me of being mafia. If I were mafia there would be no need for Krypt to use her power for X reasoning to extract because I would do so being the neighbour of Power. Essentially if you continue pushing the reasoning that Power was re-QT'ed to be that they badly wanted to find out who she was watching then you should also be of the opinion that I'm town.

But that's only assuming that Power would tell you who he was watching. If he wouldn't tell you, maybe you thought Krypt would try. Moreover, if my suspicions of Krypt took hold with the others, his lynch was likelier than yours, so it wouldn't have been as much of a loss if Power "outed" Krypt's rolefishing as if he'd outed you as doing so. I don't accept that you being neighbours with Power makes you any less likely scum.

Not to mention that the first night, Setael was Power's neighbour, and Krypt neighboured him on N1. That kind of completely trashes your argument.

Reading the past few pages the level of AV's fencesitting makes me near certain that he's mafia. He has stated that reason he's perfectly fine lynching either of us is that there's a ML while also realizing the constant amount of suspicion cast against him. If he were town I can't help but believe he would be attempting to ask me a lot more questions and look into the game into a much deeper level that he seems to be doing at the current moment to make sure that today didn't end in a mslynch and a forced lylo.

Vote: AV

"Fencesitting"? I've said clearly that you OR Nacho are mafia. That's not fencesitting, that's having two perfectly good suspects, and having the chance to lynch both. I've already made my case against you yesterday, and added more to it today, and you've not come back with anything to make me change my mind. Nacho I've also considered extensively. Unless Seacore is scum (highly highly unlikely, something I think as a result of "looking into the game at a much deeper level") then EVEN IF you're town, we can't lose this.

On that point, actually. Do you think Seacore is scum? Your arguments only make sense if you do, since Seacore is doing exactly what you're describing, and, moreover, I only have motivation to look beyond you and Nacho if I think Seacore is scum. I don't think Seacore is scum, and I

know

that suspecting you and Nacho is not a scumtell in any way, shape, or form. So sorry, but your whole argument is invalid.

[AurorusVox]

1. My argument refers to the fact that Power re-QT'ed which you're stating was to attain further information therefore the fact that he was neighbourized N1 is meaningless.

Not meaningless at all. If Krypt neighboured PR N1 when Setael was his neighbour, then why wouldn't he do it N2 when you're his neighbour?

2. You're claiming that I believed that Power wouldn't tell me who she neighbourized therefore asked Krypt to neighbourize her when I was only in the game for one night therefore it would be impossible to have knowledge over whether I believed Power would give me that information or not.

What point of the night did you replace in?

That's the definition of fencesitting, you have two suspects and swing between them whenever you feel like it because 'they're both your suspects'.

I believe the mafia is one of you and nacho

Um. So if that's Fencesitting, then you're doing it too. Is having two suspects still a legitimate scumtell?

1. You haven't exactly made a case against me because if you had you would be highly interested in me attempting to respond to it, your 'case' is just statting that you dislike Doom and Krypts interactions and nothing more.

A summary of my case posted earlier today:

Reg is still scummy from previous days, and if scum moved themselves last night, between him and Seacore he comes out by far the worst. Also, I really don't believe he missed all the QT topic posts - I'm guessing here but LF/Seacore, did you ask him about the switch? My thought is, if he's scum he probably didn't fancy facing questions about that. I still maintain there are connections between Krypt and DB, and I still have an issue with Reg saying Krypt acted protown in the QTs. From the sounds of what Krypt said to him, he posted a bunch of non-committal reads. I also find it hard to believe that if Reg was town, Krypt didn't try to rolefish him like he tried on me.

2. You state that it's impossible to lose if I'm town which is completely untrue, you fail to recognize the fact that there is suspicion cast towards you therefore when I flip town it would still be You vs Nacho which isn't an autowin position at all.

From

my perspective

, it's impossible to lose, because if you flip town, I *know* Nacho is scum. Of course it's not autowin if everyone else votes elsewhere (for me, like you say), but that's always the case - we could all vote Llama today if we're going to talk about hypotheticals that make no sense.

This is completly incorrect as explained earlier I believe the mafia is one of you and nacho therefore you attempting to question if I believe Seacore is a blatant misrepresentation of what I've said.

No, I'm not attempting to represent anything that you've said in ANY form, let alone misrepresent it. What I'm saying is that you're ignoring the fact that for your argument to make sense, Seacore has to be a scum suspect. If he ISN'T then you and Nacho are GOING TO BE the two suspects, since everyone else is pretty much clear. Your argument has NO merit if you don't think Seacore is scum, because OF COURSE you and Nacho are my two suspects today; you've both been scummy, and neither of you are clear. You're ignoring context completely.

[AurorusVox]

I'm not saying 'Krypt wouldn't QT Power', I'm saying your reasoning behind Krypt Re-QT'ing Power makes no logical sense due to X being the case. I replaced into the night about 1/3 of the way into it I believe. There's one mafia remaining, having two suspects with one mafia is understandable but having no difference between the scumminess of the two suspects is not understandable, nor is attempting to look into which you believe is more likely mafia, that's blatant fencesitting.

But it DOES make sense. Since he neighboured PR with a scum already as his neighbour, if he got the answer he was looking for (who is PR watching?) then he did that WHILST having a scum neighbour next to PR, and did it a second time with a scum neighbour next to PR for the same reason as he did it the first time. If he DIDN'T get the answer that he was looking for the first time, maybe he thought he'd try again; maybe you both tried! And if you were a mid-night replacement, Power has even more reason to neighbour PR, since he wouldn't have known that you would be replacing in, in time, to rolefish instead of him!

And I have been looking into who's scummy. I consider you

both

as highly likely to flip scum. Of course, I'm wrong about one of you, but that isn't fencesitting, that's the fact that there's only one scum left! I think you're likelier to flip scum, which is why I'm voting for you, but there isn't much in it and so I would have been happy voting for Nacho today. When you're both very scummy then its hard to judge who's "scummier" because you're scummy for different things.

1. I've discussed the moving of quick topics and going into that in depth already of which you have responded by saying you're unsure how to read my confusion therefore that wouldn't be part of your case.

Isn't it clear from what I said that I find the moving of quick topics as IMPLICATING YOU AS SCUM? I don't think you can say I'm "unsure" about that when I say clearly that you come off the worse for it, and that there are reasons why you would move yourself.

2. I've discussed and brought up what exactly was said in the QT which you haven't responded to.

If you mean the QTs with Krypt, then that makes no difference because if you're scum you have no reason to tell the truth about what was said there. I DON'T believe that Krypt wouldn't try to rolefish you, and you saying otherwise - when I think you're scum - isn't going to change my mind.

3. How would she have been in any position to rolefish yesterday, furthermore you haven't responded to her lack of voting anyone that's scum throughout the game connected with the fact that she voted me.

I have responded plenty of times to Krypt's voting pattern by pointing out her fear of large and popular wagons. She didn't hammer Seacore, she distrusted the hammer vote on Quar (despite "thinking" he was scum) - and she avoided voting for you until NO ONE else was voting for you, and it looked like I was going to be mislynched. Hell, the way you're relying on it as a defence here makes me think you probably told her to throw a vote your way if she could get away with it, because you could see it would come back to bite you in the ass if she didn't!

You're not making sense at all. I'll attempt to explain it here, there's three main suspects, these include Nacho, You and myself. Saying that you don't need to scumhunt because you will know the mafia tommorow is meaningless because the odds you would be lynched would be 50% which is extremely high.

I'm not saying I don't need to scumhunt. I've been scumhunting you both. I've been providing cases on you both. I've been responding to your cases on me. You're trying to make out like I've just popped in and voted with nothing else which is a plain lie. You're also failing to see that with Seacore out of the equation (which is where you'd put him too), FMPOV the scum HAS to be between you and Nacho, and I've been focusing my efforts on you both and decided that (a) you're scummier, and (b) Nacho is scum tomorrow if you're town.

Honestly, what you're saying makes no sense in the context of what's actually happened today, and it looks like you're desperately trying to get me mislynched in your place.

[AurorusVox]

Ah, I see where you're coming from but I still disagree the logic of using a power for the sole reason for performing something currently possible doesn't make sense at all to me.

You can say it doesn't make sense but the fact is that Krypt DID do it so I don't really see what I'm meant to take from this?

I think you're likelier to flip scum, which is why I'm voting for you

Again you haven't called my actions scummy once, instead you've attempted to base majority of your accusation of past activities done by Doom thereby giving me ntohing to defend against, furthermore your continual admittance that you find two very different players

equally

scummy makes no sense at all to me as thereby you're implying that one town player is just as scummy as a mafia player.

I say it's close but I've cut out all the background noise so you can see that I am calling you scummier than Nacho.
You can't expect me to ignore everything Doom did. And the defence of Krypt due to the QT was all you. So I don't see how you can argue that it's Doom's play that I'm focussing on.

You've stated that part of your reasoning is due to the exchanges between us in the QTS, I was then asked to go into our conversation in more detail which I did and you made no comment on. Not just that but it was you that was asking for information on them, if you're going to refuse to believe anything I say about them or even stop to consider it I don't understand the purpose of asking about them or pushing it as reasoning behind your case.

No, you're getting it wrong.
I said I didn't believe that Krypt's interactions with you in the QT would have given you a town read on him. Put plainly, I'm saying I think you were lying about it to excuse not going after him if you could, yesterday. I'm not saying that what you've said you talked about points to KryptScum, I'm saying the lack of feeling of scumminess from you, regarding him, in those QTs makes you suspicious. I will look at them if you flip town but at the moment I don't think that's happening so what you SAY you've said is just a pile of WIFOM.

By this are you meaning to infer that it wasn't popular to be suspicious of me yesterday? I haven't relied on this defence at all, I didn't even bring it up Nacho did however if you believe I would tell her to place a vote on me to use this a defence then wouldn't you believe that I would have brought it up at some point?

It was popular but not at the time when Krypt voted you. At that point, the wagon had gone from you to her to me, and wasn't looking like it was going back to you, with me at L-1 and Seacore ready to hammer. Notice that while you had votes on you, she wasn't as suspicious of you and didn't contribute to your wagon; only after the votes left, she appeared and put a vote down. At the time she voted, I was the popular wagon that she tried to avoid, not you.

You haven't scumhunted, you can consider that you have as much as you want but your actions has been standing back and saying I have a mslynch and two suspects, I don't care which get lynched! I haven't said that you haven't done anything but I strongly believe you've avoided doing anything that could potentially shine a posiitve light on Nacho or myself.

You contradict yourself here because you state that you believe I'm scummier while saying earlier and stressing that you believe we're equally scummy.

I have scumhunted to get those two suspects and clear Seacore of suspicion. Also see above where I laid out that I felt you were slightly scummier than Nacho, so there is no contradiction here.

You're being inconsistent in applying your scumtells, because Seacore has the same opinion as me - and has had a lower presence in the thread, a more "standing back" approach, which he has openly admitted to - and yet you've given him a free pass. If you had considered him as scum (I don't think he's scum at all, but from your point of view, from what you've said at least, he should be a suspect for you) I might have taken you more seriously. As it stands, I think you're only focussing on me because you want to latch onto Nacho and try to get me mislynched. If there was a vote on Nacho rather than on me, I don't doubt

he'd

have been your primary suspect.

[AurorusVox]

I also think NL doesn't really serve a purpose here. It'll just delay us til tomorrow and I don't doubt it'd still set up AV-vs-Nacho.

Nacho, if you thought NL was the best option yesterday, why didn't you say that AT ALL during the course of the day?

I'd like to hear from everybody but I'm almost certainly going to vote nacho today.

QFT.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Nachomamma8

Honestly can't say that Nacho's mindgame didn't have me holding my fingers over the keys, wondering whether to hammer or not. It seems a bold move for a scum, but we've already established that Nacho loves dat gambitz and its not enough to stay the date of execution.

I really, really read him as scum more likely than Seacore. If Seacore is town, I feel like the pressure Nacho was putting me under yesterday would be applied tenfold to Seacore and might cost us the game, because Nacho almost convinced ME that I was scum yesterday (I kid, I kid) so I have no idea what he'd do with a five-day run at Seacore. I know I'm capable of talking myself out of hammering scum, just to mislynch town later on, and it's not a good feeling so I'm sticking to my guns here. Nacho, your request for a five day battle is noted, but I fear as scum, you could do an awful lot of damage with it.

If Seacore is scum, gg. Grey will never talk to me again but I can't risk giving NachoScum the win. I felt the double-bus was a good indication that you were scum earlier in the game, but, looking back objectively, it gets you more townpoints than anything (esp. the Kryptinen shenanigans - if the lynch was between two scum, why not at least hammer one of them, right?)

This wagon should have been me + Seacore + Feysal as the ultimate bro-trio, but I guess NachoScum can join the party. Feysal can be an honorary bro.

*crosses fingers and waits for LMP*

[AurorusVox]

If you're town and Seacore is scum, then it'll be you and I who share the sad beer, Nacho (though I prefer cider).

I'm gonna await the modscene, I don't trust Nacho to admit he's scum even after he's been hammered...

[AurorusVox]

Ohay Beers on me, lads :p

I LOVED THE NEIGHBOURHOOD QT MECHANIC
IT WAS A DREAM COME TRUE
Just being able to focus, one-on-one, and post thoughts...I'm guessing as town it felt really nice and helpful too.

I also like that TS' slot stayed with the same neighbours the whole game through >:)

The victory is in a large part down to Krypt and Set not neighbouring Nacho N1. I was a proponent of risking Krypt on his survivor claim and seeing if we could at least tie Nacho to Krypt for the game, so its a good job that we didn't do that.

Nacho, I have to say, you sure gave me a HELL of a ride (as did you, Llama, whilst you still suspected me!). D4 was one of the toughest days I've ever faced as scum. I was sure it was going to fall to pieces around me, especially when Reg hitched his hopes on NachoTown. But Feysal (<333) remained my pal throughout, and with Seacore on my side too, that made MYLO a nice place for me to be. I was SOOOO tempted to not hammer you and just continue to appear town (I also worried you were lying about VT and had a venge kill >_>") but figured given time, Feysal and Seacore *might* turn against me =3

@Jedo, I heavily attacked them (both) for 3 days, until they got lynched :p Gonna have to stop bussing soon or else everyone will be on to me >_>"

@LMP, flavour was AWESOME! I love how you integrated day-time events into them, like having Regfan call a tip in on herself (I lol'd so hard at that).

Though your flavour made me feel guilty as all hell >_>

[AurorusVox]

;_;

ITS NOT MY FAULT I SWEAR IF I HAD A CHOICE I'D HAVE JUST SETTLED DOWN AND RAISED A FAMILY (oh yeah the NS/Wicked kill flavour was heart-wrenching T_T)

Btw, the QT links in the spoiler are missing :O

[AurorusVox]

Aha, I figured that was just a placeholder for now! Just thought I'd give you the heads-up in case

[AurorusVox]

No. Maybe its because you're a very naughty boy?

[AurorusVox]

GREY I DIDN'T LET YOU LOSE TO SEACORESCUM DID I DO GOOD?

[AurorusVox]

Yeah I was drunk/cranky when I yelled, and I apologised for it the next day, I felt terrible for being such an ass ._."

Good job you didn't try to recruit him though >_>"

[AurorusVox]

From the Dead Thread: "HOLY FUCKING SHIT HE'S A VENGEFUL TOWNIE"

You don't know how much I was screaming this at myself when deciding whether to hammer or not. I was SO sorely tempted to go "No hammer from me" and see what played out. But I figured taking the risk was more exhilarating...>_>" Plus I figured vengeful townies self-voting to draw the quickhammer is a gambit 101 and Nacho is beyond that in his shenanigans.

[AurorusVox]

I guess with the added NS gambit it was a bit more complex. I suppose I got lucky, this time >_>

[AurorusVox]

Slots 4-5 is the best of all the QTs.