Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[Twistedspoon]

hmm

My vote is on NS right now, but I did previously vote Jedo
Nacho has reminded me that Jedo is a safer bet than NS for scum. I don't really mind which is lynched, but there certainly seems a better case for Jedo now, what with all that wifom and paranoia

VOTE: Jedo

L-2 yes?

I was saying that as a survivor, you wouldn't care if town or the scumteam won so near endgame, it would make sense for you to quicklynch with scum in order to survive and win.

This is true. Is there a way a survivor won't lose? Town won't kill him as he isn't mafia yet mafia won't kill him as he isn't town :/

for what it's worth I'll say that i have more town reads than scum reads, but that's to be expected i guess

[kryptinen]

I have a fever so this post is going to be even less coherent than usually. Sorry once again. Here are the question with the answers.

I apologize, I tried to answer all the questions, but missed some. It was an honest accident. If I miss some more questions, please ask them again. Sometimes I think I have answered a question when the person asking it thinks I have not, like what happened when I was asked why I took part in RVS. Or I might not even realize what is a rhetorical question and what is not sometimes.

Why did you unvote in RVS?

I just like unvoting RVS as soon as possible. There is nothing bigger behind it. So it's more like: no vote=random vote < real vote.

What were you trying to get from asking such a question? What if someone jumped to tell you Seacore was in his own wagon? It's so small it's a nulltell

Scumbuddies often try to keep distance to each other, as to not appear to be buddying. Some players realize this and use small openings to say something not important. So yeah, jumping at small things like that + ignoring each other is not so null anymore. In other words it would have been something I would have stored so I could have used it later in the game.

What do you think a scum would have done after that kind of question? Why are you asking about the tone change?

I think scum would have been more defensive, or attacked me right from the beginning. Anything to get the discussion away from himself. But like I said, he's taking this discussion to a direction that has him in a spotlight: something I don't find scummy at all. The change in tone, on the other hand, seemed like he was waiting for someone else to attack me. Scummy player's are usually more comfortable when there's someone else to lead an attack against a townie. So I just wanted to know if he could tell me a reason.

Seacore, you asked a question and I answered it. When I said they're not all equally valid I meant that we can't rely solely on this one remark to find Jedo's alignment. His overall play has been dodging and scummy, that's why I think he's scum. You, on the other hand have been tunneling in a way that is just asking for a cop scan and I have explained why I think you are not scum. There was four cases in which he was scum becuse town would have no reason to not tell the truth. The scum has several.

And then there's the actual potential motivations she's listed
1) trying to take the heat off himself - what heat? he wasn't under much heat when he made the comment
2) he wants to create chaos and WIFOM - how is what he's doing creating chaos and WIFOM, there's little chaos, it's more like a spotlight on krypt, that's the opposite of chaos. and WIFOM only works if Krypt is his buddy. Is that what Krypt is admitting to here?
3) Thought up what strategy before hand? That he'd openly declare that he's bandwagoning for the sake of it? Or the strategy that I'd vote for somebody for doing something scummy? Brilliant strategy that.
4) What slip?
5) Yeah, of course he's maybe telling the truth.

1) He knew he was going to get questioned. That's why he said he was doing it.
2) More likely now that he has said that he find his own playing too scum to be scum, a classic town method to avoid getting night killed. So is he scummy scum or town player who doesn't want to get KN'd? Definitely WIFOMF.
3) No, the fact that you point out that scum have no reason to say this. (I think they do, I just pointed out four of them.)
4) "I'm bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagonin. But not scum."

@NS: you promised there'd be substance. Where is it? To me it looks like you want people to think you have something to say when you have nothing. And you still haven't given a better reason for doombunny vote OR taken the vote out.

@Nacho: Were you deliberately lurking? Why?

[Jedo the Jedi]

You guys just have everything neatly wrapped up in a box, don't you? There's never anybody who goes outside of your definitions.

Maybe I said both of those preemptive things (about bandwagoning and being absent) because THOSE ARE THE THINGS I'VE BEEN FOUND SCUMMY FOR BEFORE. It's so boring to roll along with the same rhetorical bullshit over and over. I know exactly what people's responses are going to be, especially the scum who want to exploit these tiny flaws. If I'm town, I have to sit around and wait for someone to build a case on this (I mean, since it's day 1, that's all they would need), then let other people sheep them saying, "That sounds good to me," and

then

try to stifle my lynch which is being steamrolled steadily onward? Umm, no thank you! Those are the only two things which I preempted, and maybe you'll recognize the logic of that now.

A few other, more specific, responses:

Can you expand on this? Moving from wagon to wagon isn't really random. Also, for further clarification, who do you find more scummy, twisted or Krypt? Finally, is your vote on Krypt more because you think he's scummy or because everyone else is wagoning?

I don't move from wagon to wagon. I pick a wagon on day 1 and ride it. It's kind of a "guilty until proven innocent" sort of gig. Not that I join because they are scummy--like I said, it's random--but since it was random, they have as much chance of being scum as any other random choice. Until they over-turn that with good reasoning, town tells, or a claim, I'm not going to let them go. Spoon has actually done something marginally scummy, but I've got him on my radar and he's not going anywhere. krypt is under the heat lamp right now, and I need conclusive evidence before I let him slip away. It is so easy for scum to be that first random wagon, get slipped off because "it's a day 1 wagon and some of the people on it have more chance of being scum than the wagon target," and never get pegged again unless you have a smart cop. Plus, that wagon has the most votes and reasons for them. If that person is lynched, we have some good analysis without having to sort through all of this waffling we have going on today between three people.

And if you ride it to a lynch and she comes up town, I'm assuming you're absolved of all guilt because you're just following your philosophy? Who would you look to as your next suspect there?

No, that's a bullet I have to bite. It's the same thing if I stick my neck out for someone and defend them and they come up scum. They legitimately seemed townie to me, so I made myself clear. Because of the random nature of the bandwagon day 1, it's more about gaining reactions and less about how they actually flip. Both are good information for the town. Naturally, I would prefer to catch a scum (and if someone super scummy shows up, I will gladly switch to them), but I think it's best to stay. spoon is not super scum because his reaction is only useful in light of krypt's flip.

Be careful with the hammer? Sounds like you don't care whether it's a lynch or not.

It's scummy that Nobody didn't say it,

and

it's scummy I pointed it out? Bullshit.

Earlier, he said he didn't see the scumminess and could see where krypt was coming from, but now he's taking a tiny chunk of her defense and going "Don't like it, not moving".

Yeah, you know because I might not find one thing scummy, but I can find another. That's not legitimate?

I thought Spoon was your scum candidate if krypt was scum? So, when the vote support disappears, that suggests that she's town, right?

That first part is true, but if the rest of the town is not going to go along with my test on krypt, I might as well continue the test on spoon. If I think they are together, I can still vote either one. The second question doesn't follow, and you know that.

Anyway, keep powering on with me if you wish. When I get to L-1, I'll claim and you can go from there. If you lynch me, I suppose you will change your whole take on the day tomorrow. I still think krypt is too dodgy to be getting out of a random wagon that quickly, and I say she's got help.

[Nachomamma8]

I was saying that as a survivior, you wouldn't care if town or the scumteam won so near endgame, it would make sense for you to quicklynch with scum in order to survive and win.

This is correct. That's why we're not getting to Lylo.

Please take a look at what time period we were in. It was the RVS and I was joking about Sea in order to wagon him to try and get us out of the RVS quicker.

Fair enough.

You would have preferred me putting Krypt at L-1 so early?

Yes. If that was the only lead you have, you should have reread the game and found another suspect, or pushed krypt to L-1. An aggressive town is a victorious town.

In other news, I need time to analyze everything that's going on in the game ATM

I don't want you to analyze everything, because you'll overwhelm yourself and end up doing nothing. I want you to analyze what you feel needs analyzing, and I want you to push someone as scum. That's all.

Addressing Jedo's defense now, just checking a few of his other games first.

[Nachomamma8]

You guys just have everything neatly wrapped up in a box, don't you? There's never anybody who goes outside of your definitions.

Last time I checked, we're not the one's who are claiming to predict attacks and already formulating defenses for them.

Maybe I said both of those preemptive things (about bandwagoning and being absent) because THOSE ARE THE THINGS I'VE BEEN FOUND SCUMMY FOR BEFORE. It's so boring to roll along with the same rhetorical bullshit over and over. I know exactly what people's responses are going to be, especially the scum who want to exploit these tiny flaws.

So you're telling me you know what the scum are going to say in response to this gambit? If that is so, then why not let them attack you? Then you can out the scum D1, and we can win instantly!

If I'm town, I have to sit around and wait for someone to build a case on this (I mean, since it's day 1, that's all they would need), then let other people sheep them saying, "That sounds good to me," and then try to stifle my lynch which is being steamrolled steadily onward? Umm, no thank you! Those are the only two things which I preempted, and maybe you'll recognize the logic of that now.

If you want to do something that you know people will find scummy, then yeah, that's your responsibility. If you're not willing to put the effort in explaining your town motivation and defusing a wagon in the RVS, then don't draw wagons

No, that's a bullet I have to bite. It's the same thing if I stick my neck out for someone and defend them and they come up scum.

Okay, why do you have to bite the bullet in response to a mislynch, but you don't in response to an RVS wagon on yourself?

It's scummy that Nobody didn't say it, and it's scummy I pointed it out? Bullshit.

It's not scummy that you pointed it out, it's scummy

how

you pointed it out. What part of my wording made you think anything different?

Yeah, you know because I might not find one thing scummy, but I can find another. That's not legitimate?

It's not legitimate because you took a tiny part of her defense, attacked that, then ignored the rest. Wouldn't you attack me for being scum if I just quoted a single sentence in your defense, called you scum, and left my vote?

The second question doesn't follow, and you know that.

If a wagon dissolves on someone because the main wagon pushers are satisfied with their play, it suggests the suspect is town. What's wrong with that reasoning?

Anyway, keep powering on with me if you wish. When I get to L-1, I'll claim and you can go from there. If you lynch me, I suppose you will change your whole take on the day tomorrow.

This confuses me a bit. Why are you giving me permission to push a wagon on you? And how will my take on tomorrow change?

I still think krypt is too dodgy to be getting out of a random wagon that quickly, and I say she's got help.

Did you read my post #140? Doesn't that qualify as help? Shouldn't that make me scum?

[Doombunny9]

Yes. If that was the only lead you have, you should have reread the game and found another suspect, or pushed krypt to L-1. An aggressive town is a victorious town.

And I did do that (see my vote on NS in my next post). I just wanted to stay on the safe side and avoid a quicklynch.

@Jedo-What makes your plan of riding out a wagon D1 better (As in, how well it helps to catch scum) than "normal" play? Why do you still do it when you know what's going to happen to you?

[Jedo the Jedi]

Last time I checked, we're not the one's who are claiming to predict attacks and already formulating defenses for them.

I'm only able to do that because the response is always the same.

So you're telling me you know what the scum are going to say in response to this gambit? If that is so, then why not let them attack you? Then you can out the scum D1, and we can win instantly!

Touche. Also, that's part of why I pointed out spoon.

If you want to do something that you know people will find scummy, then yeah, that's your responsibility. If you're not willing to put the effort in explaining your town motivation and defusing a wagon in the RVS, then don't draw wagons

I'm arguing it shouldn't be found scummy, hence the explanation.

Okay, why do you have to bite the bullet in response to a mislynch, but you don't in response to an RVS wagon on yourself?

It's not RVS by the very nature of it having reasons. Also, you guys will have to bite the bullet for your mistake. I'll just be dead.

It's not scummy that you pointed it out, it's scummy how you pointed it out. What part of my wording made you think anything different?

How else should I have said it? I can't help it that you read that as flippant instead of as a warning so someone doesn't accidentally end the day prematurely.

It's not legitimate because you took a tiny part of her defense, attacked that, then ignored the rest. Wouldn't you attack me for being scum if I just quoted a single sentence in your defense, called you scum, and left my vote?

I didn't take a tiny part of her defense. I found the part

s

that were not good reasons for her being town. Also, not if you found a slip. Tell me that doesn't frequently happen in mafia.

If a wagon dissolves on someone because the main wagon pushers are satisfied with their play, it suggests the suspect is town. What's wrong with that reasoning?

Suggests, maybe, but it certainly isn't definitive. How many scum have gotten away like that? I just dissolved a wagon on my scumbuddy in another game. The argument is still in my favor.

This confuses me a bit. Why are you giving me permission to push a wagon on you? And how will my take on tomorrow change?

What else should I do? I clearly can't convince you otherwise. If you're scum, I don't suppose your take on

today

will change, but the results from my flip should cause a town with your perceptions to consider today's interactions differently.

Did you read my post #140? Doesn't that qualify as help? Shouldn't that make me scum?

Don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind.

All of the above are in response to Nacho, if you couldn't figure that out on your own.

@Jedo-What makes your plan of riding out a wagon D1 better (As in, how well it helps to catch scum) than "normal" play? Why do you still do it when you know what's going to happen to you?

I don't always ride out the wagon, and I've never claimed I would do that blindly. What I have said is that it inevitably produces discussion of people crying foul and saying whether they are for or against, which gives us things to work with. If the wagon happens to land on scum, it often produces a slip of some kind to confirm the wagon is in the right place. Otherwise, another scum may slip in the ensuing discussion. It's a good icebreaker, so to speak. I do it because it gets results. Of the last few games I've played (some off-site), we have caught scum day 1 like this.

The difference today is I haven't seen anything overtly scummy enough to move my vote elsewhere, nor anything convincingly townie enough to simply drop it.

[Doombunny9]

The difference today is I haven't seen anything overtly scummy enough to move my vote elsewhere, nor anything convincingly townie enough to simply drop it.

And you believe that you will catch something? What is it that you hope to catch while wagoning that you haven't gotten yet?

Anyway, after looking through Jedo's iso, I am noticing a difference between the way he usually plays and the way he is now. For one, he seems to be more blatantly wagoning in this game more than any of his other ones and he scumhunts more in his other games than in this one. Something else I've found:

I do it because it gets results. Of the last few games I've played (some off-site), we have caught scum day 1 like this.

What do you mean by some because I assume that you mean all if you're even telling the truth. The recent games you've been in where scum was caught day 1 were: Lost: Season three where you were never even on the lynching wagon so if you did catch scum that way, you weren't a part of it, Sherlock Holmes where the scum in question was you, and an ongoing game where the same situation as Lost occurred. Care to explain?

[kryptinen]

Jedo, people either want someone to get lynched or they don't. Either you wanted to get me lynched (you would have said something like "Please leave her time to claim" or "Is someone willing to hammer?" or even "Scum. Please hammer.") or you don't want to get me lynched (you would have unvoted.). Your post didn't make it clear which one you wanted. You left yourself an opening you could crawl out if someone accidentally hammered me and after I flipped town, but you still had a vote in it, in case someone would hammer.

You say you wait for a scum slip to either validate the wagon or make you hop onto another one. Then you go on to saying I have not done anything towny enough. Your explanation and practice contradict. I have the same question as Doombunny: Do you think my way of playing is going to change after you have wagoned me for a certain amount of time?

I don't always ride out the wagon, and I've never claimed I would do that blindly.

A few posts earlier:

Not that I join because they are scummy--like I said, it's random--but since it was random, they have as much chance of being scum as any other random choice.

So random != blind? What's the difference? Your play is hardly pro-town, because when voting randomly there's a bigger change of hitting town than scum.

[Twistedspoon]

V/LA until Saturday/sunday

[LimMePls]

Vote Count 1.7

Jedo the Jedi (5)

- Quaroath, Doombunny9, Packbat, Nachomamma8, Twistedspoon

Packbat (0)

-

kryptinen (4)

- Seacore, AurorusVox, Jedo the Jedi, Glass

Quaroath (0)

-

Doombunny9 (1)

- Nobody Special

Setael (0)

-

Powerrox93 (0)

-

Seacore (0)

-

Glass (0)

-

Nachomamma8 (0)

-

Twistedspoon (0)

-

AurorusVox (0)

-

Nobody Special (2)

- kryptinen, Powerrox93

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (1)

- Setael

13 votes available, 7 votes needed for an arrest

Deadline is Apr 26, ~10 am EST

1) Setael replaces fuzzylightning, effective immediately. Thank you Setael!

2) Everyone is currently within the posting requirements.

3) Twistedspoon's V/LA is noted.

[Nobody Special]

Sadly, I have to

request replacement.

My apologies.

[Powerrox93]

I don't want you to analyze everything, because you'll overwhelm yourself and end up doing nothing. I want you to analyze what you feel needs analyzing, and I want you to push someone as scum. That's all.

*Self face-fish-slap*

Why am I always formulating my post somewhat wrongly?!

What I meant is that I wanted to take an extra look at things I might have overlooked in the game.

And RL has kept and will keep me busy for the rest of this day. More content tomorrow.

[Setael]

Sorry about the wall. I promise the rest of my posts will be much shorter.

Unvote

. It's time for questions. Seacore, there seems to be wagon forming against you. Why do you think that is? Who do you find more suspicious: the person who started that wagon (the second vote) or the person who officially made it a wagon (the third vote)?

I think it's definitely the person who started the wagon, ie, the second vote. We should definitely lynch that guy.

Seacore is clearly making light of it here. The only way I see for this to be interpreted is that either he thinks Krypt was trying to be funny and is posting that he gets the joke, or he doesn't think Krypt was trying to be funny, so he's poking fun at Krypt. There's nothing in this post that indicates Seacore thought either possibility was scummy.

So then AV posts asking Krypt a bunch of questions and only after that does Seacore vote Krypt and post all the reasons he thinks Krypt's post was scummy. I don't like how it went down. If Seacore really thought Krypt's post was scummy, I don't think he'd have posted anything like post 43, and he definitely wouldn't have posted JUST that and not said anything about it being scummy until an hour later. I think he realized it would be more to his benefit to try to paint it into a scum tell and so he reversed his initial reaction which was to just joke about it.

I didn't get a scum vibe from Jedo's post 60 (where he votes Krypt) originally, since it seems unlikely as a scum move, but now that he's defended the post with "too scummy to be scum," I think it was premeditated.

That looks like L-1 from Nobody, so be careful with the hammer.

Huge red flag. Jedo hasn't given a reason to be on the wagon and has only said he thinks Krypt ISN'T scummy. There's no way a townie wouldn't unvote here.

Jedo's excuse for not unvoting:

I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon. Plus, since I stated she is at L-1, there is no excuse for an accidental hammer. Whoever hammers better have good reasoning.

So evidently Jedo would have been fine with Krypt being lynched on page 2 (even though he supposedly thinks Krypt is town) as long as someone had good reasoning. This is insane.

Packbat votes NS for his Krypt vote. I hadn't realized Krypt was L-1 until Jedo pointed it out. I assumed that NS didn't realize it either, since otherwise it doesn't make sense for him to put her at L-1 for such a weak reason and he definitely wouldn't have neglected to mention that he was putting her at L-1. But then NS posts and makes it clear that my assumption was wrong.

Okay, firstly, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO WARN EVERYONE when a vote is at L-1. Pay attention, do something for yourselves for once.

Secondly, thanks Doombunny for calling out Krypt on the "missing things" thing, except, wait -- you

didn't mention my question that she also avoided.

Trying to single me out for something?

Thirdly, Krypt, stop avoiding questions.

Fourthly, Doom has now replaced Krypt as scummiest.

unvote

Vote: DoomBunny

So not only did he evidently KNOW he was putting her at L-1, he didn't think it was necessary to state that was the case. As if this weren't bad enough, his reason for voting DoomBunny is so bad, it's like he's screaming "Don't look at me! Look at someone else! DoomBunny, look at DoomBunny!"

Post 99 Seacore dismisses the Jedo case, and says that the only point against him is his Krypt vote. Blatant misrep of the case.

Scum vibes from TS' post 104. He asks AV if he's happy with his Kryp vote and what he thinks of the other 2 wagons when I definitely can't tell you what TS thinks of anyone except maybe NS.

NS follows Seacore's glowing example in post 110, misrepping his case as solely being about his not announcing the L-1 when this is clearly not true.

By post 118, it's clear that AV is hardcore tunneling on Krypt and saying nothing about everything else that's going on. AV, your thoughts on

anything

else?

I put my vote down randomly, but I don't move it at the slightest whim or defense because I might have accidentally hit scum. krypt didn't give a good enough defense for me to move my vote.

This statement struck me as odd. He's clearly talking about his play in general, saying that once he random votes, he doesn't move it without good reason, but that excuse doesn't work in this game at all since his Krypt vote wasn't random.

My one remark is that if I saw someone else playing like this, I would think it is so obvscum as to be townie.

Seriously? You're saying we can't be suspicious of you because you're too scummy to be scum?

Nacho's posts are spot on, except for this:

NS: "Tell me why you don't like the RVS but participated anyways!" ~ Terrible question. Terrible L-1 vote. Also, the "slowly" bit is condescending and makes you sound like you're inferring krypt is flailing. So, why put more pressure on someone who's not handling the pressure they've got?

I don't follow the logic. If you think someone is scum that isn't handling the pressure well, how does it make any sense that you should avoid voting them in order to not put more pressure on them?

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

Seacore's defense of Jedo is scummier than the swimming pool of a foreclosed house in Florida; SC+JJ explains why SC attacked kryptinen's scrutiny of his wagon, being as that wagon was half scum.

THIS.

I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them.

Whoa, there. If you found some things scummy about him, why did you completely dismiss the case in your post 99 and why did you never mention these things you find scummy until now? (And still not say what exactly they are.)

hmm

My vote is on NS right now, but I did previously vote Jedo
Nacho has reminded me that Jedo is a safer bet than NS for scum. I don't really mind which is lynched, but there certainly seems a better case for Jedo now, what with all that wifom and paranoia

VOTE: Jedo

L-2 yes?

This post is all kinds of scummy. Before voting Jedo, he reminds us that he was previously voting Jedo, and then hides behind Nacho's posts as a reason to vote him. The whole thing is just terrible.

I don't move from wagon to wagon. I pick a wagon on day 1 and ride it. It's kind of a "guilty until proven innocent" sort of gig. Not that I join because they are scummy--like I said, it's random--but since it was random, they have as much chance of being scum as any other random choice. Until they over-turn that with good reasoning, town tells, or a claim, I'm not going to let them go.

The problem with this, once again, is that this is not what you did in this game at all. If this is what you had done in this game, you'd have stayed on NS, as he was your random vote. Instead, you switched from NS to Seacore saying, "We need a wagon." THEN you switched to Krypt. So in this game you DID move from wagon to wagon. You DIDN'T pick a wagon day 1 and ride it. You didn't pick someone and do a "guilty until proven innocent". So the question is, if this is what you always do, why did you not do it to NS, your actual random vote? And why are you trying to convince us you DID do it to Krypt when that wasn't the case?

vote: Jedo

That's L-1

Town

Packbat
Krypt
DoomBunny
Glass

Scum

Jedo
Seacore
NS
TS

Null reads on everyone else.

[Jedo the Jedi]

And you believe that you will catch something? What is it that you hope to catch while wagoning that you haven't gotten yet?

The scum on whom I have my vote. See below.

What do you mean by some because I assume that you mean all if you're even telling the truth.

In my current large theme, we bandwagoned day 1, ended up lynching a different scum because he was more suspicious, then rightly lynched the bandwagon victim from day 1 on day 2. He also was scum. In this case, the bandwagoning on day 1 not only caught a different scum in the reactions to the wagon, but was also originally on a scum who didn't respond well to the pressure. We caught them both. You must have missed that one. I'd say that is more like what is going on here.

Jedo, people either want someone to get lynched or they don't. Either you wanted to get me lynched (you would have said something like "Please leave her time to claim" or "Is someone willing to hammer?" or even "Scum. Please hammer.") or you don't want to get me lynched (you would have unvoted.). Your post didn't make it clear which one you wanted. You left yourself an opening you could crawl out if someone accidentally hammered me and after I flipped town, but you still had a vote in it, in case someone would hammer.

This is nonsense. On a random bandwagon, it remains to be seen if I want that person lynched when I get on it. That will be determined based on reactions of others as well as the bandwagonee. In this case, at the time of Nobody's L-1 vote, I was still wanting more discussion before making my ultimate decision. As I said, I didn't want the wagon to unravel yet because it would be hard to get it back if I later decided I did want you lynched for being scum, so I left my vote but warned others of your status. If it's scummy for Nobody not to say it, and it's scummy for me to say it (I can't help some misinterpretation of my intent), then that's fucking bullshit. The fact that you're riding this one on the coattails of Nacho make me confident in voting you.

You say you wait for a scum slip to either validate the wagon or make you hop onto another one. Then you go on to saying I have not done anything towny enough. Your explanation and practice contradict. I have the same question as Doombunny: Do you think my way of playing is going to change after you have wagoned me for a certain amount of time?

Did you miss the "guilty until proven innocent" bit? I thought your explanations for why you are town were poor WIFOM reasons, and the fact that you would use those for a defense did not clear that reading. I didn't place my vote on you to just park it somewhere. I put it there to place pressure. You still haven't responded like a townie as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand that question. I think scum do respond under pressure if it continues to loom. I guess we'll have to continue waiting and see.

So random != blind? What's the difference?

You misunderstand. I don't blindly ride out the wagon. The initial vote is random, but once the bandwagon has formed, I'm looking and analyzing responses both from within and without. Like I said, I'm not parking my vote and being unwilling to change it. It's just going to take more for me to move it. Also, I know the odds of hitting scum or town through randomness, but if I have no knowledge, you are still 50/50 to be one or the other. I want to be convinced I didn't hit scum with my shot in the dark.

As far as scumhunting goes, I tend not to go all over the place if I've got one or two in my sights. Of course, I'm seeing others responses, but I'm not going to try and corral the whole chicken coop at once.

PEdit: I see the new post. I'll address it with another.

[Jedo the Jedi]

The problem with this, once again, is that this is not what you did in this game at all. If this is what you had done in this game, you'd have stayed on NS, as he was your random vote. Instead, you switched from NS to Seacore saying, "We need a wagon." THEN you switched to Krypt. So in this game you DID move from wagon to wagon. You DIDN'T pick a wagon day 1 and ride it. You didn't pick someone and do a "guilty until proven innocent". So the question is, if this is what you always do, why did you not do it to NS, your actual random vote? And why are you trying to convince us you DID do it to Krypt when that wasn't the case?

Good point. I'm happy to address this. The first vote is just some sort of thing that's done. It's all just joking with each other and making stupid comments about scumminess or whatnot. I don't even count that. I did get on the Seacore wagon to try to get one started. I did not switch to krypt until it was no longer a wagon because it had died. If the same had somehow happened to krypt, I wouldn't consider it "wagon hopping" to move off something which had stopped. The "guilty until proven innocent" is for the wagon, not that posturing vote at the beginning.

Huge red flag. Jedo hasn't given a reason to be on the wagon and has only said he thinks Krypt ISN'T scummy. There's no way a townie wouldn't unvote here.

Really? I guess you'll have to change that thinking if you guys lynch me. At some point townies have to keep their votes on the wagon. I notified the town so that some dumbass wouldn't come in and lynch, and so some scum couldn't later go "Hurrp durrp, I didn't know." It was to protect the wagon from ending before more discussion while still keeping the pressure. Does somebody now need to unvote because you put me at L-1? Shouldn't you have not put your vote on me to put me at L-1? No! That's dumb. I'm not going to claim until L-1, so if somebody were to just unvote right now, we'd be right back here at this arguing stage with me not worrying about being lynched. This line of reasoning is old now.

So evidently Jedo would have been fine with Krypt being lynched on page 2 (even though he supposedly thinks Krypt is town) as long as someone had good reasoning. This is insane.

Ideally, only after some more discussion of the pros and cons or why krypt really is townie. Again, the only thing about krypt is I didn't think the reasoning others were using was scummy, but the whole "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy compels me to stay once I'm on the wagon. Finally, if the lynch had happened, I don't think it would have been the end of the world because I think we still could have garnered some info from what discussion was there. (I'll save my snide comment deflecting the coming argument for after it's made since I apparently have to go along with that nonsense.)

Seriously? You're saying we can't be suspicious of you because you're too scummy to be scum?

Somebody else had already said something similar, and I was just echoing that I would think the same thing if it were another person. Hardly trying to defend myself with that. I would think that's what the wall posts are for.

I'll give time for some responses to these two posts of mine before claiming. Maybe somebody will see the logic and I won't have to claim.

[Doombunny9]

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

Nacho is a survivor meaning that as long as he survives until the end of the game he wins despite which faction wins. Nacho was pretty much saying "Keep me alive and I'll help the town to win."

@Jedo- I don't think you've understood my other question so let me rephrase it for you: What makes you think that you're going to catch scum from wagoning if you haven't caught one already? also, you've stated that you've been successful with this tactic on other sites, could you provide examples?

Also, when twisted gets back from V/LA he needs to post more content rather than the fluff he's been posting.

[Nachomamma8]

Jedo, I would like you to respond to my ISO #2 in entirety and explain why everything I've brought up is invalid. I would also like you to address the fact that she continued to pressure NS while the wagon on you built up, and try fleshing out your cases against Spoon and others because the case on krypt is not impressing me at all, regardless of your desire not to round up the whole chicken coop.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't follow the logic. If you think someone is scum that isn't handling the pressure well, how does it make any sense that you should avoid voting them in order to not put more pressure on them?

Bad performance under pressure this early on in the game is more a tell of ability, not alignment. It's also good to relent on a bandwagon on someone when they're under heavy pressure even if you think they ARE scum because you can examine who jumped at the opportunity to disintegrate the wagon, and you get some interactions where not incriminating a scumbuddy isn't the primary thing on scum's mind.

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

My wincon is to live until the end of the game. So, I've decided to play it like a VT who is required to live until the end of the game; I'm hoping the game will be over by the time before it becomes imperative that you lynch me.

[Nachomamma8]

And, for the grand finale:

Unvote, Vote: Powerrox

I'm still getting a fairly strong scumread from Jedi, but I can't in good consciousness let Powerlurker coast through this >.>

I wanna see kryptinen's answers to the questions before I comment his case

This is ridiculously scummy. He's refusing to give an opinion on the first serious bandwagon of the game; instead, he's waiting to see how far along the bandwagon forms and who supports it in order to determine if he should join it right now. I could see scum seeing a fairly strong early case and wanting to stay off the mislynch wagon here.

Just got home from my V/LA so this will be a short post.

Oh yeah. I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon.

Everyone have a good long look at this. How much more obvscum can you get rather than just admitting it? I don't see ANY pro-town reason for wagoning just for the sake of wagoning outside of the RVS, especially since you stated that you didn't think Krypt was scum.

Unvote, Vote: Jedo

When I think of it... WTF Jedo? Voting outside the RVS for someone you don't think is scum only for the sake of wagoning? As Doombunny9 said, that couldn't be any scummier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jedo

Weak sheep vote. Do we have any comments on krypt? Nope. This vote could also be bussing because it doesn't stay long...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

The reason for you voting for DoomBunny is bad bad bad.

Sheep vote made 10x worse by powerrox not even acknowledging that it is a sheep, even though Twisted and Glass had already brought forth those points.

Next two posts are fluff, and there's what tipped me over the edge:

I don't want you to analyze everything, because you'll overwhelm yourself and end up doing nothing. I want you to analyze what you feel needs analyzing, and I want you to push someone as scum. That's all.

*Self face-fish-slap*

Why am I always formulating my post somewhat wrongly?!

What I meant is that I wanted to take an extra look at things I might have overlooked in the game.

And RL has kept and will keep me busy for the rest of this day. More content tomorrow.

This post is scummy because he's acting like he's provided any real content thus far. He's promising to search the games for thing's he's overlooked, but he hasn't even offered an opinion on anything, really. He hasn't commented on the Jedo wagon since it's gotten more serious, he STILL hasn't commented on krypt, and he hasn't made an original comment about the person he's voting yet.

I also really can't see how bad formulation of a post can make someone accidentally say "I am going to read everything now" when they meant "I am going to look for things I missed now".

[Glass]

back. Catching up.

[Seacore]

I'm with Nacho on this one.
I was reading Power's last post on the phone and was planning on ISOing him when I got to a PC.

Nacho's done that and I see no reason not to vote.

Unvote. Vote Power

[Doombunny9]

The case on power does make sense but I still feel that it's fairly weak compared to the other candidates right now. Before I even consider switching to him I'd want to hear from both him and Jedo first.

@Sea-What makes you think that Power is a better lynch than Krypt (Or anyone else for that matter)?

[Seacore]

Nacho raised some good points about Krypt, ones that, even I don't agree completely on, have forced me to admit I had some blinders on.
I have found some things Krypt has said scummy and I'm not going to stop looking suspiciously in that direction, but I'm willing to move on.

I don't find Jedo that scummy. I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

Power, however, has been skimming the surface of the game for too long and has avoided making comments. He's definitely worth a vote.

[AurorusVox]

SEATLE

I proveided thpughsts in some post about the other wagons plz for to see that for my response to non KRUPTINEN things.

Um. Drunk now. Rereading in the morning. I know i said today but I've gott essays lads, and essays need completing,

I would be willing ot proxy my vote ot Nacho right now he's such a beast. I can;t get over loving Jedo from a previous game, plus I think BWing is useful so I'm not buying that as a scumtell. I dunno. I need a srs reread wihout Kryptinent involved to see where my head is at.

SALAMAEL, who are you replacing anyway? no poster whatsisname, Fuzzy Lightyear, I guess? Flakers be flaking yo.
If instead you're rpelacing NOBODY SPECTACULAR thaen I'm gonna have to revise my read on that slot because you are bringing town vibes all over yo.

Never drink and post, children.