Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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aw, shucksTwistedspoon wrote:
you don't know what you're missing :3Jedo the Jedi wrote: And here I was going tovote: Nobody Specialso I could have one with AV.
Seacore, do you often self-vote in RVS?Seacore wrote:I agree
Vote:Seacore
I can personally go along with this up to a point. It's not an all-access pass to being scummy so it depends how the rest of the game pans out. If you're playing pro-town I won't want to see you lynched anyway.Nachomamma8 wrote:I'm claiming now because I think I have a better chance of winning with the town than I do with the scum.
It's in your best interest to keep me alive at least until the day before LyLo because I have more of an interest in hunting and killing the scum than you all do.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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@Glass
I really feel its best to let the person the question was directed at ask first. Don't you think I have a specific reason for asking Kryp to explain herself? Now she can just copy your answers. It's polite, if nothing else, to wait for the person asked to answer before adding your comments. Would it have been so hard to wait, and then say "I think Kryp is right. RVS can add pressure but her vote wasn't going anywhere."
If RVS can add pressure but her vote wasn't going anywhere, why did she not add a new random vote? Why not add a vote along with her questions? In my experience, scum are more cautious to lay votes down so I find it suspicious that she's holding back. /shrug
Doom is also guilty of this, but his post at least indicated a reason along with it - that he's waiting for a response. Kryp has now had her response, but still no vote. Her continued questions indicate (to me at least) that she's not satisfied with the answers she's had so far, so I can't see what harm adding a vote to the pressure of her questions would do.
On that note, Kryptinen: what conclusions have you drawn about Seacore so far from his response? I'm assuming you're not satisfied but I'd like to hear it from you.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Hmph. Still not happy with Kryptinen, and I'm sure these are the same questions I've been asking for the last two pages, like reheated leftovers served for breakfast the next day...
If you like unvoting as soon as possible, and if having no vote is the same as having a random vote, why bother placing a RVS at all?kryptinen wrote:I just like unvoting RVS as soon as possible. There is nothing bigger behind it. Soit's more like:no vote=random vote < real vote.
Do you think that random votes completely lack pressure?
I also note that you're changing your story with the bolded. This is a recurring theme.
How are you using distance here? Distance as in keeping their distance, i.e. not interacting with each other; or distance as in, the practice of distancing, i.e. interrogating each other as though they did not share an alignment?kryptinen wrote:Scumbuddies often try to keep distance to each other, as to not appear to be buddying. Some players realize this and use small openings to say something not important. So yeah, jumping at small things like that + ignoring each otheris not so null anymore.In other words it would have been something I would have stored so I could have used it later in the game.
I'm focusing on you because you haven't satisfied me with your responses yet. "Please look at these other people!" is deflection; isn't that what you said scummy people do here?kryptinen wrote:I have some questions on my own: AurorusVox, why are you only focusing on me? What do you think about that L-1 vote, for example, and Jedi's not unvoting? (And I had not logged in since your question was posted, so I have not had any time to answer.)
In general I agree with Jedo that bandwaggoning is good; it builds good pressure on scum early on, and is more likely to come from a townie than a scum in my opinion due to the attention garnered from bandwaggoning and the potential for that BW to be on your own scumbuddy. But my understanding stops short when there is someone else that you find scummier - surely it would be better to try to build pressure/a BW on that person? Otherwise you're preventing yourself from ever putting down an original vote.kryptinen wrote:Anything to get the discussion away from himself.
NS' posts are a little off, the lack of L-1 notice could be a scumgambit with view to a hapless hammer, or it could just be laziness. The reasoning on DB feels weak. Basically Glass has summed it up with this:
Glass wrote:Jedo is voting someone he doesn't think is scummy over the person he thinks is scummy.
NS is voting doom for... idk, something that I don't find valid.
Krypt's responses sound like lame excusesTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Sorry to keep labouring the point but how does a random vote generate discussion if it doesn't generate pressure?
My working theory is you RV'd in order to not buck the trend. You then later got called out on unvoting, and tied yourself in knots trying to excuse it.
I still don't understand why you'd unvote, I mean, the vote makes zero difference, so what would the harm have been in keeping it?
If keeping their distance from (i.e. ignoring) each other is a scumtell, why would you have suspected anyone who jumped in to defend Seacore? That's not ignoring each other, that's helping a brotha out.
Is Jedo's lurking worse than Nacho's? Are either of them scummier than NS?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Something is pinging my gut on Kryp. Maybe I'm just a grumpy asshole cos it took so long to get an answer. Vote remains for now.
So. I was going to comment on how one of the scumbags is probably just sitting in the background, just kind of gently fanning the flames. So I went to ISO people. And guess what? "Fuzzylightning" has made zero posts so far.
To people with him as a QT partner. Did he realise the game was in progress?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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^TS, nothing else to comment on? :\
Nacho is the towniest oftowniesthird-parties right now. I'll have a thorough reread tonight or tomorrow of Jedo/NS/Seacore and see what pings. I'm still not happy with Krypt but it could be tunnelvision or irritation at having to keep repeating my questions to get a straight answerTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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SEATLE
I proveided thpughsts in some post about the other wagons plz for to see that for my response to non KRUPTINEN things.
Um. Drunk now. Rereading in the morning. I know i said today but I've gott essays lads, and essays need completing,
I would be willing ot proxy my vote ot Nacho right now he's such a beast. I can;t get over loving Jedo from a previous game, plus I think BWing is useful so I'm not buying that as a scumtell. I dunno. I need a srs reread wihout Kryptinent involved to see where my head is at.
SALAMAEL, who are you replacing anyway? no poster whatsisname, Fuzzy Lightyear, I guess? Flakers be flaking yo.
If instead you're rpelacing NOBODY SPECTACULAR thaen I'm gonna have to revise my read on that slot because you are bringing town vibes all over yo.
Never drink and post, children.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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This part of Seacore's post stinks. "Oh you found a contradiction. Well let's pretend it's not one. Plz ignore early scumslips."Seacore wrote:Ah, unless you're talking about me saying that I found some actions of his scummy and then I'm saying I don't find him scummy. Okay, yeah, that looks like a contradiction, but isn't really, not on Day 1. Nearly everybody drops tiny little scumtells early on when you're grasping for evidence to start playing with.
Waiting on Jedo's response to Set's recent questioning.
Doom: what's your take on Setael's case on Jedo? You've played with Jedo once before; plus his recent games are available on the site, as someone else has already proven. Why do you need to assume anything about his meta?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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@Wicked
RE: Doom doing the same as Kryp, I've already covered ^^"
RE: Seacore's self vote - I'm undecided on the validity of self-voting (and other casual RVS behaviour) as a scumtell. My instinct bristles against it; but when I actually consider what a self vote is and what it does, it spirals into a WIFOM balancing act of purposefully bringing attention to oneself, negating a voting trail or early connections, and simply being cavalier. That's why I asked the question, to see what response he gave. I don't think his joking response was particularly scummy (like if he'd tried to wriggle out of the accusation/changed his vote immediately for exa)mpleAurorusVox wrote:Doom is also guilty of this, but his post at least indicated a reason along with it - that he's waiting for a response. Kryp has now had her response, but still no vote. Her continued questions indicate (to me at least) that she's not satisfied with the answers she's had so far, so I can't see what harm adding a vote to the pressure of her questions would do.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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@Wicked
Glass has good early reads and made some good points. Recent V/LA and lack of in-thread presence prior to Saturday makes it difficult to move beyond a gut townvibe based on her succinct summary of the game, but Saturday's catchup contained :goodposting: so I like Glass atm.
As for my having/eating cake, admittedly Ididneed to give reads on other players at that time, but the reason I called Kryptinen out on it was because she hadn't answered my questions of her to a satisfactory degree yet, and was trying to shoo me off elsewhere before in an attempt to get me off her back, which I didn't like, especially considering she called deflection a scumtell earlier. Since she'd asked, I wasn't going to outright ignore her, but I wasn't going to drop my line of questioning either.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Random votes DO generate pressure, in my opinion. Although a vote may be random, you should have to do something good to get it off you, or play well enough for long enough that someone slips up and the vote moves. When small wagons get built on people this pressure grows (which is why I didn't mind Jedo voting to form a BW). Even if the pressure it generates is small, my point to Kryptinen was that a vote causes MORE pressure than no vote, since no vote can't cause ANY pressure whatsoever.Wickedestjr wrote:@AurorusVox (114) - I'm curious what you think. Do you feel any pressure from a random vote? If not, how do you think random votes generate discussion?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I assume if he was scum he'd have tried to do one of those two things, that's why I said I'd have found it scummier if he had done them. Wriggling out of the accusation, in whatever way he could, be that deflecting, getting very angry, making up dodgy excuses for it.Wickedestjr wrote:If Seacore was scum, how likely do you think it is for him to have done one of these things? And what do you mean by "wriggling out of the accusation" ?
Here's a working example; he has since talked about the vote being partially a potential honey trap for eager scum. If he'd said that at the time, it might have looked like he was trying to make up an excuse to get people off his wagon, i.e. wriggle out of the accusation. Since he's not mentioned that until now, I am more willing to believe he's being honest about it.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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@Wicked, TS told me that Nacho had claimed. He didn't tell mewhatthat claim was yet.
Power, you can't get rid of that awful vote by moving it elsewhere and claiming it was done in anger. If it was a spur of the moment thing, why didn't you change it in #222? Why did you wait until you were under fire for making that vote before moving it, hmm?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Hurrm.
Watcher is a pretty confirmable PR so I can roll with leaving him alive for tonight.
Back toVote: Kryptinen.
[excuse]I've got 2 essays due Tuesday, and I'm moving house on Saturday, so I probably won't have time to look at the other players' past posts until early next week, but if I get a chance tomorrow I'll do some ISOs of Doom/Seacore/Packbat/Jedo.[/excuse]
I will also beV/LA Saturday --> Monday.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Hey, sorry for my disappearance, I had to unexpectedly catch a train to another part of the country, to sign documents for a flat I'm renting a few days earlier than I thought, and I've been without internet since Thursday. Urgh.
I'm prioritising this game for my reread since deadline is so soon. I'll catch up on whatever pages I've missed to see where I am, then ISO whoever needs it for deadline voting. It'll be quite rushed, so sorry for that, but my letting agents are incompetent and don't even get me started on ISPs.
Again, apologies for my absence.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AV's Catch-Up Post of Buggery
In your catchup, Glass was "obvScum" - why has him replacing out changed that view? This was before LF had even made a post beyond saying a Catchup was coming.Wickedestjr wrote:I don't want to lynch LlamaFluff today despite him replacing my top suspect.
Also, I'm not sure why Wicked wanted to not have PR claim results til late in the game, and then he changed his mind on this after Kryp "reminded" him that scum have a NK...these posts are the first time Wicked has really unsettled me since he replaced in.
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LF fails to give reasons with his suspicion of me for at least a page, despite people asking him for them. Maybe he didn't have any at the time?
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Kryptinen; was TS scummy for not answering these questions? You seem to be attacking him a lot but I'm not seeing any vote.
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What do you make of the reason that many people voted for Power? That would be this post.Setael wrote:So basically, Nacho is the only one who moved from Jedo to Power that I don't find suspicious.
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Ah. Llama finally gives reasons.
Spoiler: LlamaFluff's Reasons
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Quaroath also gets on the "provide dodgy reasons to suspect AV" train.
Spoiler: Quaroath's Reasons
Quar trying to avoid being accused of things he calls scummy = Quar doing scummy things but not wanting to get called on it.Quaroath wrote:If I post everything I write I'll get called out for sheeping, if I post what I want to post I get called out for holding things back.
Quaroath wrote:Newsflash, town should fight getting lynched.
Doesn't look like you're trying to fight getting lynched to me, Quar.Quaroath wrote:
So vote me.Nachomamma8 wrote:Quaroath, I want you to post your notes in their entirety, now. If you don't, I will vote you.
The reasoning is that scum might say "here's the part that's not fluff" as to make it seem like they've done more work in rereading the game than they have, and to make their catchup posts look more impressive.
Though it does look like you moved your vote to cave to pressure from other players in an attempt to appease them?
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This post by PR is a badpost. There is plenty to say. You can't just ride your claim to safety.
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Setael, Jedi was a bigger wagon at this point, so why did you switch to Seacore if you think both are scum?
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Quar's posts in the last few pages have been bad, and his case on me included at least one count of serious misrep, which I think is a huge scumtell.
Vote: Quaroath
LlamaFluff gets scumpoints for a huge misrep, sadly Kryptinen has made some decent posts so she moves up the list a little, Doom is reading town to me and I still don't see the JJ case.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I didn't ever consider myself to be noting reasons to lynch Nacho. I said I'd treat him based on his play.LlamaFluff wrote:Beleive me I read the game thinking "what the hell is wrong with these people" since its very basic theory to kill any non-town claim instantly. A few people (such as yourself) reacted far worse then anyone else, especially as you appeared to note all the reasons for lynching the player instantly before deciding to vote elsewhere.
The point is to let Seacore respond to it first since it was an attack on Seacore. I hate it when people interfere with my lines of questioning (as I've made clear TWICE now in this thread) so you can't claim I have no reason to let Seacore say something first.LlamaFluff wrote:The fact is you DIDNT comment on it at first. What possible reason exists for not commenting on a post until someone else gets the chance to. Also how is anything you quoted scumhunting and not theory discussion?
My scumhunting comes from asking people questions. I see how they answer and judge it against what they've done and said because I like contradictions as a scumtell. As far as they're theory questions, they're related to real practical in game occurrences, and I can relate Krypt's "theory" of what should happen to what he actually did in game. If they don't match up, he's lying, or making stuff up, and is therefore scum.
Because I was focussing on getting my questions answered from that one player. That was all I cared about because I thought I had scum in my sights and wanted to spend my effort there.LlamaFluff wrote:That is not an answer to my point. Are you incapable of asking more than one person a question at once? Obviously you read the game enough to know what JJ and NS did, why would commenting on it detract your case on Krypt (which is your fear here?).
I disagree Nacho should be dead by page three, and his post on JJ/NS was put together well. He'd been paying more attention to them than I had because I'd been tunnelling on Krypt. So he gave me a good deal to think about. Seacore, I can't remember where that came from, not Nacho's posts you're right, maybe someone else around that time. If you want I can go back and track my thought process but not tonight, I've been catchup posting a lot and I'm knackered.LlamaFluff wrote:This post just horribly horribly makes me think its setting up for a wagon. You NEVER mentioned JJ or Sea in a negative light the entire game, and actually seemed convinced that they were town, then a single post from someone who in all honesty should have been dead by page three and/or ignored throughout the whole game changes your viewpoint? What in there made you want to reread Sea too? I see him mentioned offhand as a jokinglyish scummy thing, making me think you more just read through it and saw that assuming it had something to do with him being scum. This is just really setting up for a sheep on any of the three, and comes at a convient time. Krypt had just had his wagon fall apart, JJ wagon was taking off, people were still giving NS shit. Opportunistic to the max, timing is all wrong here.
Power gets to L-1 and that's MY fault? Hello, that's POWER'S fault for being scummy! If I'd put him at L-1 then maybe your argument would hold water, but I notice you're not going after Quaroath who was the person that did that (and didn't even want him lynched!).LlamaFluff wrote:You tunneled the entire first part of the game on the VI/newbie, when that wagon falls apart, you follow the last person to make a big post and start sheeping along with the games top scum reads while lot looking anywhere else. power gets ran up? You are one of the first ones there to catch that wagon, everything points more to scum being opportunistic to town actually scumhunting.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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LlamaFluff wrote:Why is Quar scum? This is an open question to anyone except Packbat. I cant remember anyone else providing a case on him, just sort of jumping the wagon.Spoiler: AV's Reasons for voting Quar
I put it in a spoiler because it spoils your claim that no one has made a case on him.
(Btw Jedo was at L-4 when you asked Quar (at L-2) to claim. I wondered why you asked Quar and not Jedo and went back and checked it /shrug)THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Misrep requires someone to make a case on you. You can try to call it OMGUS if you want but there's clearly a difference.
His apathy towards his own lynch and his vote move have been noted by others as well. How is that part of my reason OMGUS if others are doing it too?
Try harder.
Also if you didn't realise that I had already voted Quar, then that means you thought you were asking him for a claim at L-3. The same threshold as you thought Jedo was at when you asked. Now, your whole claim request was excusable before when the numbers were in your favour. But if you thought both were at L-3 then how do you now explain asking Quar to claim but not Jedo?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Nk speculation can be a terrible wifom spiral.
I'm posting from my gfs phone so I can't look back far through the thread but based on this page alone I'm making a reread of llama a prioroty, as parts are sounding town but some bits I'm still unsure about. plus I'll be looking at anyone who's pushing the Nk as a reason too hard. More when I have better net access :\THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Doombunny9 wrote:Want to hear who these people find scummy and why: AV
Your wish is my command. I was getting around to a good wall post once I got decent net access for a few hours. Here goes:
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Powerrox
I still find PR scummy. His Nacho vote, listing others as higher scumreads and then not changing it, claiming it was done "in anger" -- none of it looks townish, all of it looks fabricated and scummy. He sheeped Wicked's reason to vote Quar, and then said he was hanging around with nothing to add. Active lurking to the max.
Today, his claim has changed overnight from "Watcher" to "limited watcher" which I don't like at all. If he had said it was a tactical decision like someone else mentioned, then I might have found a way to understand (I still would've been suspicious), but "forgetting" is not an excuse. You had all day to amend it. Not to mention you "remembered" to claim that you couldn't do anything N0. This STINKS of scum trying to make the claim more elaborate to get around him having to claim his results every day. I'm surprised no one else has a problem with this fumbled claim. I mean, think about it - if he's legit, he's never gonna be able to catch scum now. I don't think a real, legitimate watcher would be so...powerless.
After this new info, he's pretty much confirmed scum in my eyes.
Vote: Powerrox
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Kryptinen
My tunnelling could be to blame for this. I still have a scumread on Krypt. Today, the accusation at Packbat feels like a real non-issue, potentially opportunistic - throw the blame at the hammer vote. Also, read Krypt in ISO. It's quite incredible. For the first page, his suspicions of Jedo grow and grow - and then at the start of the second page, miraculously, he's against the Jedo wagon.
Krpyt is a very solid 2nd scumread. His disappearing scumread on Jedo is very suspicious. Can you explain that?
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LlamaFluff
My read on LF has wobbled around. Something I didn't notice yesterday looks worse with Quar's flip; some things look better with his comments today and me realising I'd made a mistake. The movement has been weak, but I read him as less scummy than yesterday, but still on the scum side of null.
First off the townie things:
Today's play w/r/t investing too much thought into the possible reasons behind the NK initially sounded legit and townie (I too hate trying to navigate WIFOM and nk speculation has it in bucketloads), but I've since realised that it could simply be more WIFOM -ifWicked was killed for his LF suspicions, then of course, LF will try to downplay that aspect. I'm now treating LF's reaction to it as null, with a possible town tinge if I'm feeling generous.
My major concern was the misrep, but I relaise that could come down to difference in opinion re: scumhunting. Llama's move into thinking I'm a "twat" could explain the friction from such a difference of opinion, so my sense of the (potential) misrep as a scumtell is not as strong as it was yesterday.
I also realised I accused you of thinking both Jedo and Quar were at L-3 when you asked Quar to claim (based on thinking you didn't realise I'd voted). I've since seen that it was Kryptinen who didn't realise I'd voted, not you. So strike that post away.
And the post-flip scummy thing:
You were accusing me of being a driving force behind the PR wagon, and presumably getting him to claim, which doesn't really hold water - PR is very scummy, and his wagon built because his play was suspicious. Interestingly, you never questioned Quar for putting PR at L-1, despite him stating later on that he didn't really want him lynched at that point. I'm thinking as scum you wouldn't push Quar because you wouldknowhe was a mislynch and would probably want to stay off the wagon; not pushing him meant you didn't have to accompany any suspicions with a vote. Otherwise, please explain why you didn't have a problem with Quar's vote?
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Additional things
Twistedspoon wrote:so the players nearer the top of the list would have more of a reason to kill him, correct?
Too much WIFOM. TS, I read you as town pal, but this sounds like you've concocted an evil plan to throw suspicion at LF. Considering you were one of Wicked's townreads (and you've been using that in your defence), I'm not really liking this post at all.
Packbat wrote:Yes - particularly if they aren't suspected by others. Glass/LlamaFluff is probably the first person we should look at from an NK-analysis perspective, although by my logic Packbat would also be worth investigating.
Again, too much WIFOM. How reliable do you really think the NK spec as a strategy is, when you yourself are one of the ones implicated by it? The cheeky wink here seems to be deflecting. There are times and places for jokes, and this doesn't really seem like an appropriate one.
Packbat wrote:I had no reason to post in the QTs. If I had some reason to, I might have.
Do you not think the mere opportunity to post in them is a reason in and of itself?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Doom: Its not just Setael he has to explain visiting. He'd have to come up with reasons for every visit he ever does. This way he's "stuck" between Setael and Seacore until one of them gets lynched and only has to explain why he picked one over the other.
In a recently finished game I limited the scope of my fakeclaim as scum so I didn't have to explain my choices as much. So I see there to be plenty of motivation to it. In all likelihood one of his scumbuddies suggested it last night which is why he didn't claim it yesterday vOv
Llama, plz to respond to my points about you in my post. Or are you just treating me as the twat in the corner?
Also, regardless of his formatting, what do you make of the nature of the claim i.e. the WAY he's claimed it in two parts?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Doombunny9 wrote:AV wrote:He'd have to come up with reasons for every visit he ever does.
It's not really harder than "I think X is town. therefore I watched him". Making up this restriction is way more elaborate than any of his reasons would have to be.
But the restriction lets himget away with NOT watching the towniest players. He CAN'T watch his towniest reads because it allows him to ONLY choose between Setael and Seacore.
Maybe an example will make my point clearer. Say someone has a guilty result, outs it, and then gets NK'd the next night. Power here can't watch that player because he's restricted himself to ONLY his neighbours. That's perfect for a scum fakeclaim, isn't it?
Nachomamma8 wrote:@AV: Why do you think PR would change his claim to neighborhood only now? Do you think he was coached into that, or do you think he came up with it himself?
I think there could well be some help from scumbuddies in it. If he'd thought it up yesterday, he would probably have claimed it yesterday. The scumteam probably realised it would be a good thing to say while debating on which fake result to give.
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@LF: I got to your post when I have only 1 minute left on the internet, so I can't give you a big case yet. But my reasons are back in my post with my vote. Stuff he did yesterday compounded by his elaborate claim that just wants to make his life as scum easier. I can go into more detail if I have time to come back to the library before I go home.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Reconnected for 15 mins gogogo
AurorusVox wrote:I still find PR scummy. His Nacho vote, listing others as higher scumreads and then not changing it, claiming it was done "in anger" -- none of it looks townish, all of it looks fabricated and scummy. He sheeped Wicked's reason to vote Quar, and then said he was hanging around with nothing to add. Active lurking to the max.
This is the remnants of D1's suspicions. They were only shelved because of the testable claim.
- His Nacho vote was the main reason I first found him scummy. It was simply OMGUS, with NO substance to it at all. This was confirmed when:
- He had two other people as his top scumreads. Nacho was not a top scumread. At this point he is STILL voting for Nacho.
- He then claims his Nacho vote was in anger. It didn't read that way at all. Also, if it was an anger vote, why was it not changed in the intervening posts?
- He voted Quar simply by quoting Wicked's reasoning and saying he agreed. There was NO proactive scumhunting whatsoever. He was just riding the tails of his claim.
- This is even more obvious when we see his "I have nothing to add" post at the end of D1. Actively lurking and hoping his claim will sustain him throughout the game.
AurorusVox wrote:Today, his claim has changed overnight from "Watcher" to "limited watcher" which I don't like at all. If he had said it was a tactical decision like someone else mentioned, then I might have found a way to understand (I still would've been suspicious), but "forgetting" is not an excuse. [He] had all day to amend it. Not to mention [he] "remembered" to claim that you couldn't do anything N0. This STINKS of scum trying to make the claim more elaborate to get around him having to claim his results every day. I'm surprised no one else has a problem with this fumbled claim. I mean, think about it - if he's legit, he's never gonna be able to catch scum now. I don't think a real, legitimate watcher would be so...powerless.
^My thoughts on the claim. Other bits and pieces are strewn throughout my recent few posts. I truly believe its a fake claim. At the very least lie, he's a scum watcher. Failing that, I really don't see his play as town, at all.
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I'm on holiday in sunny Spain from Saturday 7th --> Saturday 14th May so I will obviously be V/LA for that time.
I'll probably be able to get on once more tomorrow so...any burning questions or so forth should be posted today to give me a chance to respond before I leave you all.
In that spirit, since it seems no one is willing to lynch Power today, can we at least give Kryptinen the rope?
Unvote; Vote: KryptinenTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I take Kryp's failure to answer my questions to be a scumtell. Just look how long I had to pester him before I got a straight answer about his unvote.
AurorusVox wrote:Kryptinen; what harm was your vote on PR doing? Why the need to unvote to ask Seacore some questions?
AurorusVox wrote:Krypto, can you explain why a vote on no one is better than a random vote on someone?
If you don't like RVS why did you vote at all? Why did you not RQS from the start?
AurorusVox wrote:Kryptinen, I restate:
Why did you vote at all if you disbelieve in the power of RVs? If they have at least a little power, why did you Unvote?
AurorusVox wrote:Why is having no vote > having a random vote?
AurorusVox wrote:If you like unvoting as soon as possible, and if having no vote is the same as having a random vote, why bother placing a RVS at all?
Do you think that random votes completely lack pressure?
AurorusVox wrote:Sorry to keep labouring the point but how does a random vote generate discussion if it doesn't generate pressure?
My working theory is you RV'd in order to not buck the trend. You then later got called out on unvoting, and tied yourself in knots trying to excuse it.
I still don't understand why you'd unvote, I mean, the vote makes zero difference, so what would the harm have been in keeping it?
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There's also his pressure on you for hammering 46 minutes before the deadline (?), and the complete reversal of his Jedo read. It seems ISO's have changed so you can't see the drastic shift from P1 to P2, but if you read him you should see the way it completely disintegrates and turns into a null read, with him explicitly positioning himself against the wagon.
There is also his habit of questioning people without laying a vote down (Seacore, TwistedSpoon) - perhaps trying to erode the potential for VCA. Seacore is the better example of this - I think he was voteless when he questioned Seacore, I can't remember the situation when he questioned TS. "A townies most powerful weapon is their vote" so why is he so worried about using it? :\
I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday. But when I lay it all out like this, I don't see any pro-town reason for making it so difficult to get a straight anaswer, and the other things just help to confirm that suspicion.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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kryptinen wrote:AV: Why are you so hard on me about "not answering your questions" when Packbat
Packbat wrote:I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway
has yet to do anything about this?
More deflection. Packbat's is a general failure that could come from lack of time, etc. whereas yours was dodging answering questionsspecificallyandexplicitlyaimed at you. Packbat may not have given the thread a reread, but you were denying me the chance to get an answer out of something I wanted answered.
What about Seacore way back in D1? You didn't have a single vote down when you asked him questions. Presumably you wanted answers from him the most at that point?kryptinen wrote:I see no reason to vote every person I want an answer from, but the person I want it from the most. At the moment it's Packbat.
kryptinen wrote:Jedo was dodging questions and stopping that improved his play a lot.
So you admit that dodging questions is scummy? Kthx.
kryptinen wrote:Who are your town reads? What do you think about Packbat and Jedo/ICE? You seem to have a habit of focusing all your attention on one player and not telling us what you think about everyone else. So you just want to keep a door open so that you can start pressuring people more when your initial wagon fails? Closing your eyes to most of the game is not good play.
Excuse me but I've been pressuring my TOP THREE scumreads (you, Power, Llama). So take your lies and misrep elsewhere, scum.
And I see no reason to divulge my full spectrum of reads. I very rarely do.
If I find something scummy about Packbat or GreyICE when I reread D2 so far, I'll make it known.
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In other news, I finally got internet in my flat! So I can give the last few pages a decent going over without librarians breathing down my neck and tutting when they see I'm on a forum and not an academic journal archiveTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Re-reading D2 so far;
I don't really like the dance Set and Sea are playing around each other. It seems odd - they both want to call the other scum without actually voting for each other? I can see the merit in GreyICE's idea that Jedo is likely a mislynch being pushed by the two scumbuddies Sea/Set. If that's true, though, only one of [Power/Kryp/Llama] could be scum. That messes with my reads completely, but Llama is least likely to be scum pick out of those three. I'll reassess once we've seen some flips.
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Seacore wrote:Just because Set is bussing you doesn't make you town. My opinion is that Set has decided that Jedo is worth bussing because he was pretty useless and enough people found him suspicious. She's now trying like mad to link me to your inevitable scum flip to try and save herself.
So why not vote Set? If Set is bussing GreyICE, then Set makes just as good a vote as Grey. In fact, surely Set makes abettervote as the "busser" than the "bussee" since the latter could be a mislynch, not a bussed scum.
Setael wrote:I didn't expect Seacore to stay on Jedo this long. I thought he would unvote and vote me, which would make sense since he was posting so many reasons to think I'm scum. I'm guessing he didn't because I called him on it.
Same question as above. Doesn't the busser make more sense than the bussee as a vote?
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Grey:
What changed from this post to this post to this post? In the first you declare Llama is scummy, then in the second you say he's townie, and in the last he's potential scum again?
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Llama, was your vote on me merely under pressure from Grey? That's what it seems like; conceding to get Grey off your back. You then say wagons on town reads can be good and useful, implying that you're wagonning me as a town read. In that case, why do you put me in a scumteam later in the same post? OR: do you meanGreywas the town bandwagon? If so, you failed to answer the second part of his question - which I read as asking why I make a better vote than Setael, if you think a vote on him is a good direction for the game?
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I doubt my vote is going to be useful on Kryptinen while I'm away. If there is support there, please, let me know in the next few hours so I can replace my vote before leaving >_>
I would gladly see Set or Sea lynched today, they're both as bad as each other for their distancing-dance.
Vote: SeacoreTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Grey, you're wobbling between "townie tone" and "delusional town" - one sounds like a much firmer town-read than the other.
What makes you doubt the Seacore wagon now? The people you're on it with? I've not seen you express much suspicion of TS or myself, so where is this worry is coming from?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Eh, that's fine if TS's crappy vote is putting you off, its just you hadn't actually mentioned it before so.
I have a slight townread of TS based on our QT interaction, if that helps alleviate the worry any?
Be interesting to see what Setael does now that Seacore is at L-2.
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In other news, I read PR's latest posts as debating whether or not to bus his buddy. My only concern is that a Set/Sea/PR scumteam has no room for Kryptinen scum in it. Maybe I'm blinkered by tunnel vision after all... /sighTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Deadline is after I get back of holiday, so I can move my vote when I return if needed.
Right now I'd be willing to switch to Setael too since he's guilty of the same stuff as Seacore.
If support for a PR or Krypt wagon arose I'd also obviously be happy to vote for them.
Until I return, happy scumhunting.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Returned from holiday today. A very quick catchup post follows.
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Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:Maybe an example will make my point clearer. Say someone has a guilty result, outs it, and then gets NK'd the next night. Power here can't watch that player because he's restricted himself to ONLY his neighbours. That's perfect for a scum fakeclaim, isn't it?
A One-shot position mover flipped. PR is fairly close to confirmed town for me.
Can you explain this line of thinking?
Ehh. I hadn't thought about it like you had (interaction with Wicked). I had thought Wicked was purely for HIM, for him to talk to someone he wanted.
In your line of thinking, PR only works if he's fully outed...which also makes him pretty useless. Do I assume from this that you think he just messed up his claim by accident yesterday?
Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:I take Kryp's failure to answer my questions to be a scumtell. Just look how long I had to pester him before I got a straight answer about his unvote.
I interpreted a lot of the trouble in you getting your answer to have to do with the language barrier. Do you disagree with that?
I wasn't aware that there was a language barrier issue. I thought my questions were straightforward enough...
Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:There's also his pressure on you for hammering 46 minutes before the deadline (?), and the complete reversal of his Jedo read. It seems ISO's have changed so you can't see the drastic shift from P1 to P2, but if you read him you should see the way it completely disintegrates and turns into a null read, with him explicitly positioning himself against the wagon.
I was the one pushing the Jedo wagon the most adamantly, and I'm pretty sure that you never questioned me on that.
Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?
Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday.
I will never take your krypt case seriously until you go "okay, I think that krypt is scum and I'm pushing her lynch because of that", and not "oh well i might just be lynchin her cuz she didn't answer my questions yesterday LOL".
That's not what I'm saying though is it. I said I may be biased but everything combined convinces me that its more than that.
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kryptinen wrote:@AV: Your problem is that you only focus on a few players at a time and say nothing about other people, even if everyone else is talking about them. You could easily say you have a null read on someone and leave it at that, or say that you have not seen them do anything particularly scummy, like you just did. Why do I need to drag that out of you? Newsflash, the wagon on your scumbuddy is not going anywhere, even if you don't look at it.
You want me to be posting updated reads of every player in every single one of my posts? No. I'll post my cases on my top scumreads, and make notes of anything else as it occurs. You're selectively identifying this supposed tell in me when it's basically the same as everyone plays - that is, hardly anyone mentions everyone all the time in all their posts!
You say "drag" it out of me? I said precisely "like I just did" in the post that was a direct response to you ASKING me that question. And then 2 hours later I posted my read of more players. So STOP pretending you're "dragging" anything out when I answered promptly.
Which wagon are you referring to when you say I have a scumbuddy, that I'm ignoring?
(later)
kryptinen wrote:AV: Tunneler, pretty null. Doesn't tell what thinks about players he's not currently tunneling on, but at least contributes stuff.
Misrep? Yep. I've not been tunnelling since early D1. Also, you had me as scum above. I haven't posted since - did you forget your reads, scum?
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@Llama; can you quantify how hard Seacore was defending me (as opposed to, for example, just saying that he had a townread on me)?
Unvote; Vote: Setaelis a good vote (L-1).
I have a greater interest in a Set lynch than Seacore now due to some associations between Set and Krypt that make him more likely scum.
- Krypt saying "I'll vote for Seacore but not yet!" sounds like it could be scum trying to avoid hammering a mislynch.
- Krypt NOT voting for Setael when he could feasibly do so without being the hammer vote makes Set more likely a buddy than Seacore.
- Krypt has been accusing me of tunnelling but not Setael, being selective with his tells across different players.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Doom:
There is good reason for distrusting Powerrox, thanks to the awful nature of his claim AS I'VE EXPLAINED MULTIPLE TIMES and as you've consistently failed to engage with in any real way.
My Krypt case is based on his overall play, as should be patently obvious to anyone who reads my posts about him.
And reread my post on Setael - I do have a case for switching my vote, which rests on my scumread of Kyrpt. I'll be more explicit. Krypt's dancing around the Seacore and Set issue, considering their relative positions to a lynch, implicates Setael as a Krypt buddy and Seacore as a probable mislynch. Why would Krypt have Set and Seacore as equally good choices for a lynch, and then not vote either of them? He says he doesn't want to lynch Seacore because there's discussion going on - even if we accept that this is true, why then doesn't he vote Set? Because Krypt is scum and Set is his scumbuddy, and he doesn't want to put his buddy close to a lynch with other people willing to vote for him. If Seacore is scum, Krypt has a choice between the two of them - and he chooses neither - which still makes Set scum. As for why Seacore is a probable mislynch; if Seacore is scum, Krypt - who has explicitly voiced suspicion of him - could easily hammer for towncred. If they're both scum, one of his buddies are getting lynched anyway so he'd have no reason not to maximise his reward. But he didn't hammer, because there wouldn't be towncred for hammering a mislynch.
There's also the part about selective tells with his accusation of tunnelling, which you conveniently ignored -.^
As for the "amazing" part - I said in my last post before I went V/LA that Set and Seacore were EQUALLY scummy for doing the same thing; I can't have said Set makes a better lynch than Seacore until now because I didn't think it until I came back. Can you explain why that's scummy?
Not liking Doom's last post at all. Reads as trying to throw dirt for when his buddy flips scum. Plus, Setael has now outright called Doom scum. Seems like a little bit of safe distancing with no real legs to cause any damage to Doom.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Doombunny9 wrote:AV wrote:I said in my last post before I went V/LA that Set and Seacore were EQUALLY scummy for doing the same thing; I can't have said Set makes a better lynch than Seacore until now because I didn't think it until I came back. Can you explain why that's scummy?
Because I think it would have to be pretty lucky for you to have changed your reads out of nowhere to where Set is more scummy than sea right when his wagon was building. Why did you just recently find Set to be a better lynch rather than notice all of what you've said before?
Because all the stuff that makes him a better lynch has only happened AFTER I went V/LA so this was the first point I could say anything about it?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:In your line of thinking, PR only works if he's fully outed...which also makes him pretty useless. Do I assume from this that you think he just messed up his claim by accident yesterday?
Sure. I haven't really saw strong scum reasoning for PR to change his claim in the middle of the night, and it doesn't seem all that unbelievable.
Whilst debating who to fake a watch on, he and his scumbuddies concoct a new element to his power that enables him to limit how responsible he is for his targets. I know its a scum reason as I've done it as scum in the past.
Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.
You asked why I was pushing Krypt and not you about the Jedo suspicions when you were the one doing it most, basically. But I was pushing Krypt because his main point against Jedo was that Jedo hammered 46 mins before the deadline. So if you weren't pressuring Jedo for the hammer, there's your answer.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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kryptinen wrote:If I had voted Set, there had still been a change that someone had hammered while I had been away. That would have ended the discussion. I did not want that.
You did not want that...because he's your scumbuddy, maybe?
kryptinen wrote:Setael has not been in the game long enough to give me tunneler vibes. The fact that you try to keep bringing the discussion back to me is another telltale sign of your tunneling.
That's because I think you're scum. You can try to call it tunnelling but I've not seen a reason to STOP thinking you're scum so I'm going to pressure you until you flip. Simple as. Also, I've been looking at multiple people (you, Power, Llama, Set/Sea) - Set's admitted that he's really only been looking at Sea and Grey. He's been in the game since midway through D1 - certainly long enough. This is bull.
What did I dodge? I answered you in my very next posts (within 2 hours of each other) after you asked the question. Also, please explain which wagon you're talking about, and how I shifted from scum here to null later on. Or are you saying that it was posted in anger and so I should just "ignore" the inconsistency?kryptinen wrote:kryptinen wrote:Newsflash, the wagon on your scumbuddy is not going anywhere, even if you don't look at it.
When I made this post I was angry at you for your dodging and misgendering. The last line was a direct answer to that.
kryptinen wrote:AurorusVox wrote:Nachomamma8 wrote:AV wrote:Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.
You asked why I was pushing Krypt and not you about the Jedo suspicions when you were the one doing it most, basically. But I was pushing Krypt because his main point against Jedo was that Jedo hammered 46 mins before the deadline. So if you weren't pressuring Jedo for the hammer, there's your answer.
It was Pack who hammered the first day. Are you referring to something else?
HFHDSFIDUSHFD
Yes read Jedo as Packbat in all those sentences. I think my wires got crossed (probably about what Nacho was first asking about) somewhere down the line.
@Nacho - were you asking why I found Krypt suspicious for pressuring Packbat or why I found him suspicious for reversing his Jedo read all of a sudden?
If its the second one - as I now suspect it is - then your read changed and you gave a reason (his stubbornness) for it. It's clear that you lessen the pressure on him as the day goes on so it doesn't look like a sudden shift.
Krypt's read changed, but pretty much all of his direct interactions with Jedo up to that point in his ISO had him seeing Jedo as scum, or not-town. Then when he places himself against the wagon, he says Jedo's play has been "more neutral than scum" -- but he spent the first half of his ISO outliningwhyJedo's play was scummy. He doesn't say why his read changes - he in fact retroactively tries to change how he read Jedo from the start. That's why Krypt's changing-read of Jedo is scummy, and yours isn't.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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GreyICE wrote:So uh... why didn't someone hammer?
Sure, it'd be awfully scummy, butno one even demanded he claim.Instead he was left to sit at L-1 for a while, until we lynched Setael.
I think the bolded is one of the best points in this line of thinking - if Seacore was town, one of the scum could easily have declared a hammer intent to get a claim out of him. I remember Krypt saying he would hammer Seacore once the discussion had quietened down, but he never asked for a claim at all...combined with my scumread of Krypt, this seems to stick out.
Urgh. I gave Seacore town points when Krypt didn't hammer him (based on Krypt's fear of being seen as responsible for a mislynch - he obviously thinks there's something bad about the hammer vote, since he pushed Packbat on it at the start of D2) but really, it looks like I should have considered given him scumpoints for it instead. The fact Set flipped goon means that Seacore could feasibly be a scum PR, and that's why Krypt did nothing. Hmm.
Scum suspects: Krypt - Seacore - one of [Doom/Llama]
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GreyICE and I were discussing DB and LF last night. I can see reasons for finding them both scummy and townie, and they've done similar things with slight/subtle differences...I don't really they're both scum together because the move against Set was quite similar and I don'treallythink scum would follow each other so closely...
-Doomhad Set as 3rd scum behind Seacore (#2) but voted for Set anyway - which I read as a potential bus. And he also tried to link Set to me before the flip, which sounded like heknewSet would flip scum and could be him trying to maximise the fallout from the lynch...
- Grey gave him townpoints for thisbecausehe could have justified voting Seacore at a point when it would have prevented Set getting lynched.
-LlamaI've had see-saw issues with throughout the game. But after Set flipped scum, I gave her townpoints for pushing Set instead of Seacore pretty much consistently. If Seacore was scum, then this obviously changes.
- Contrary to the above, Grey thought it looked more like a bus of Set and a whiteknighting of Sea...that is a possibility but I think LF could have easily voted for Seacore instead.
Grey- how does the above change with you now thinking of Seacore as scum again?
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Vote: Kryptinen
My strongest read. Seacore is next strongest, and I put him second partly because some of the reason I suspect him is based on Krypt being scum; and I'm seesawing between Doom and LF, so I'm going to wait and see what happens there during today.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Krypt: you announced intention to hammer further down the line, after the discussion had run its course, afaict.
I can't make out if you're in favour of a Nacho lynch today. You say his lynch will give us zero information, but also that he'll be a liability tomorrow if we happen to mislynch today...are yo confident that we can lynch scum today? Because your lack of vote suggests otherwise.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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