Mini 1415: Fairly Oddparents Mafia Game Over

[Sanjay]

OP says scum have falseclaims. Why does my rolename matter?

Where did you see that?

[Sanjay]

thanks mom

If this was it this was friggin' garbage, Balrog. Lots of people have mothers.

[Sanjay]

Don't make us look at the Fairly Oddparents wiki.

[Sanjay]

I am very excited you asked.

I've been breadcrumbing my role for my entire life.

[Sanjay]

If we are going to just break the game, we might as well just all wish to be 1-shot cult recruiters who can recruit the dead.

Day 2, we have the mafia claim and we recruit them.

[Sanjay]

Well, my plan only uses one wish, so we can all use our second wish to WISH that we hadn't broken the game with a lame plan.

[Sanjay]

Balrog, if you aren't having enough fun making wacky wishes, you can come over to my place later and we can play Jenga.

We will have a barrel of laughs.

[Sanjay]

I assumed that the mod would just ignore coordinated wish efforts to break the game. I hoped he would anyway. I signed up to this thing to make wacky wishes.

[Sanjay]

0-2, apparently?

[Sanjay]

Vifam, is you posting this free and devil-may-care an obv-town thing, or can you pull that off as scum?

[Sanjay]

I just asked Q if he'll throw back wishes based on them being part of coordinated town efforts, and apparently he won't.

So game on as far as breaking the game goes.

I just really really really really don't want us to be successful.

[Sanjay]

Good isn't the same as townish, holmes.

[Sanjay]

I just asked Q and apparently wishes can change alignment. Mafia claim. We change them to town. BOOM.

Broke the game in three wishes.

I'm soooo impressed Balrog half-broke the game with 20.

[Sanjay]

You guys are killing me. In the interest of not having the game end instantly, I'm going back on what I said. Wishes can and will be prevented if I suspect intentional game breaking.

YESSSSSS!!!!

Victory.

[Sanjay]

Don't restart

I really don't think any damage has been done.

[Sanjay]

Plus I really don't want to re-roll my character.

[Sanjay]

Sanjay you need to actually nameclaim.

I am a time traveler.

Not like Marty McFly. More like Benjamin Button or Merlin from Once and Future King.

I live life backwards.

My first memory is this post. After this, I gather, I will receive a message from numberQ telling me my name is "Sanjay".

Since it is the only name I was ever given, I take it as my own.

Later, in 2009, I sign up to MafiaScum with my rolename: "Sanjay".

Later, in the 1980s, my parents name me "Sanjay" because I told them that was my name. They live life backwards too, you see.

All because of that role PM.

[Sanjay]

Vote: MrZepher

Is there a reason why you didn't check the PM if you weren't sure?

[Sanjay]

I'm sorry, Benmage. I didn't think I was being obstinate.

I suppose I can't simultaneously criticize Balrog for being coy about his roleclaim and do it myself. I thought it was clear that I was nameclaiming 'Sanjay' but I guess not.

The flavor, unfortunately, is different than the one I hinted at in my last (first?) post.

[Sanjay]

MrZepher, why didn't you check the PM before claiming?

[Sanjay]

Benmage, I'm working here.

[Sanjay]

I didn't enter the thread all huzzah like because I didn't want to ruin my jokes.

[Sanjay]

I thought of this one as soon as I got the role PM. That's a sweet joke and I'm wasn't about to ruin it by being brash.

[Sanjay]

You do know you are misreading Zepher, though, right Vifam?

[Sanjay]

Woops. I'm Tad. I thought Tad was the black one, but I'm the white one and the white one is Tad.
I got the names confused. Sorry.
Visual memory and all that stuff...

Uh, what? You get a picture of the kid you have in the PM. Are you blind?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zeph

Just as long as this isn't still your case, we're cool.

[Sanjay]

Also, I got a sort of "testing the waters, do I dare to jump in?" vibe from this post.

[Sanjay]

That was in response to my plan, not Bal's if that changes your answer. The plan involving the mafia claiming and us magicking them over to the good guy team.

[Sanjay]

Either Peregrine is town or he is the hypothetical crafty scum that fakes great ignorance of the setup in order to towntell which I always think about but never run in to.

[Sanjay]

It is a LITTLE weird that Peregrine is both trying to break the setup and hasn't read the first post though.

[Sanjay]

That was in response to my plan, not Bal's if that changes your answer. The plan involving the mafia claiming and us magicking them over to the good guy team.

Ohhh I see. No, that strengthens the read more so.

The townread? How so?

[Sanjay]

You've read the eight pages enough to call them shit. You must have more than that.

[Sanjay]

Benmage, what scummy things were you referencing here?

[Sanjay]

I think I'm going to

Unvote

Zepher for now. I'm not really as excited about it.

[Sanjay]

I should clarify what I meant by "testing the waters" with regards to that Zepher post. I was floating the idea that MafiaZepher was intrigued by my

genius

breaking strategy but knew well enough not to just go "Sounds good, Sanjay! The mafia are me, X and Y, our QT is here." That he wanted to see what his buddies thought about it.

I don't know how convinced I am by that interpretation, but that's what I meant.

I definitely definitely definitely DO NOT want to end the day right now. I am greatly looking forward to wishing the heck out of some frivolous wishes, but we can do that after we get this tedious "playing to our win condition" out of the way. And I don't think ending the day right now is pro-town.

For what it's worth, numberQ assured me my role was random in my role PM. I

suppose

he might have rigged it, but he didn't and doubt he did.

Benmage, I was wondering about that question I asked you.

[Sanjay]

Edit by way of post. Second last line should read:

"For what it's worth, numberQ assured me my role was random in my role PM. I suppose he might have rigged it, but

I hope

he didn't and doubt he did."

[Sanjay]

Vote: Benmage

The difference is that you haven't been playing like someone who saw stuff that was scummy early. Like at all.

What's to review? I'm just asking you what you meant.

[Sanjay]

This is where I'm at:
Town:
Human Destroyer
Balrog
Benmage
Klick
MrZephyr
Sanjay
Vifam

Slight town:
kiwieagle

Neutral:
adorkable

N/A
Seanald
captaineddie

Slight Scum:
-L-

Scum:
PeregrineV

[Sanjay]

That's beside the point.

The point is that there's this weird inconsistency between this post, the posts before it, and the posts after it.

Benmage apparently saw stuff that was scummy. Not from me, Balrog, or Vifam, apparently, because he goes on to say that we all look town. Probably not Human Destroyer either, given this. Yet, the very next thing he does is come after me based on my nameclaim and defend Zeph. Why?

He had a ball. Why didn't he run with it?

[Sanjay]

Those few being Peregrine and L?

Why not go after them? You are the one who claimed to have a few scum reads on page 4. Not me. And you have barely pursued them. You seem to be going after town points with a lot more zeal than you are making your cases.

[Sanjay]

Benmage, how would you feel about an -L- wagon?

[Sanjay]

PV, how would you rate the strength of that Vifam case?

[Sanjay]

I feel like it goes without saying that PV's Vifam case is uncompelling.

The question is whether it is scummy (or how scummy it is, probably).

On the one side, it feeds in to townPeregrine's extreme paranoia that the setup is more complicated than it seems. Peregrine's been very consistent about this, and it is the one thing that is causing me hesitation.

On the other hand, if you read that case alone, it really seems like Peregrine wrote the case because he wanted to have a case on Vifam, not because it is a good case. Maybe I'm just saying that because it is a really, really, bad case.

I am sorry I couldn't think of a more diplomatic way to put this, but Peregrine's play has been pretty dumb this game. The question is whether it is too dumb to be believed.

[Sanjay]

-L-, am I to take from this post that these were your reads at the time?

What are they now? Any scumreads?

[Sanjay]

I assumed that the mod would just ignore coordinated wish efforts to break the game. I hoped he would anyway. I signed up to this thing to make wacky wishes.

Sounds like scum. I wonder how many will cop you.

It seems a little bizarre that you seem to have completely forgotten this read. Maybe I'm just being vain, but I don't really like being forgotten.

Unvote

Vote: -L-

I'm kind of bummed that nobody has either jumped on the Benmage thing with me or convinced me I am off-base. That said, I've had my eye on this wagon for a little bit and I quite like it.

[Sanjay]

"I have no reads. Also Benmage seems townish. Balrog seems scummy."

WHAT IS THIS SORCERY.

READS COMING FROM NOTHING.

HOW DO YOU GET SOMETHING FROM NOTHING?

I AM FREAKING OUT.

[Sanjay]

-L-, you are ignoring my question from post 326.

You definitely saw it. You answered the rest of it.

[Sanjay]

Did you agree with Klick's reads at the time, or were you just adding your name on to Klick's townlist for no reason?

[Sanjay]

At least have the decency to your replacement to answer the pending questions.

[Sanjay]

I mean, replacing out like this is a pretty jerk move regardless, but at least do your replacement a favor and answer the questions they will have a tough time answering.

[Sanjay]

Is captaineddie using the rare and fabled "saving your scumbuddy from the lynch by somehow seeming like an even better lynch candidate?"

"Knowing" how -L- is going to flip.
Going from a townread to a 100% scumread in the span of a few posts.
Flipflopping on how readable the thread is.

Holy moly.

[Sanjay]

I fell back a few pages.. skimming this page, L's replacing out due to pressure?

Yeah I'd lynch there.

HOOOOOLY SHIT.

Really surprising coming from you.

Especially since YOU bullied town-L- into replacing under pressure in your last game together.

[Sanjay]

I guess busing your scumbuddy is more important than staying consistent with your meta?

[Sanjay]

Seriously, you guys, check this game out.

This is too good.

Unvote

Vote: Benmage

I think Benmage is more likely busing here rather than going for a mislynch, but this is a 100% genuine ungenuine post we have here. Benmage is mafia.

[Sanjay]

How does him being a doctor in that game have anything to do with it?

He is intimately acquainted with -L-'s replacing out as town under pressure.

Yet, when he sees -L- replacing out as town here, he's like "yup, there's your scum".

[Sanjay]

So you are saying you don't remember?

What have you been doing? I thought you were suspicious of -L-. You didn't check up on her past games?

[Sanjay]

Now we just gotta look through Benmage's games and see if not looking at meta for players that are playing weirdly is normal for him to see how cooked his goose is.

[Sanjay]

Can being a doctor give you amnesia?

If not, it's irrelevant.

Have Benmage explain my case to you. He understands it.

Saying he forgot is a defense. That he was a doctor is not.

[Sanjay]

-L- I don't want you to replace out. Maybe you aren't playing the best. That's okay.

We're got to solve this problem now so it doesn't happen again.

There's a lot of posts this thread and that can be overwhelming. No biggie. Just deal with it one thing at a time.

Here's your assignment. Pick a player. Maybe someone with not as many posts like kiwieagle or adorkable or seanald. Tell me what you think of them. How likely are they to be scum or town?

When you are done with that, do it again. You get to dictate the pace of this game too.

[Sanjay]

The point I am making is this:

Benmage and -L- played together during Mini 1058 - Vanilla Town Mafia. Both were town. Benmage was a doctor, but that's really irrelevant. In that game, -L- replaced out because she didn't feel like she could hack it.

In this game, Benmage used -L-'s replacing out as further indication to lynch -L-. I submit that Benmage would be more likely to do this as mafia, because, as town, he would know that this is a pretty soft indication to lynch -L-, especially being aware of her meta.

Points against this argument is something that I had not really considered that Benmage brought up, this game was a while ago, and Benmage has played a bunch of games since then. It's conceivable he forgot.

Initially, reading the thread, I figured there would be no way he forgot, especially considering he was the one who pressured -L- to replace in the previous game with this post:

[L] you're digging your own grave if you are town. Because your vote on me looks scummy. Also remember the little chat we had about being able to convince others...saying you have no proof won't get anyone to lynch me. So your vote will sit idly and do nothing. Much like your pretty bad "pressure" vote on horror. Your basically doing nothing with these side tangent votes. I'm pegging you as newb-scum over newb-town.

If you are town. Replace out of this game and play some newbie games. Cause if you are town...holy shit...

This has nothing to do with how Benmage played this game as it compares to this game. It just has to do with what Benmage remembered about -L-. That's why him being a doctor is irrelevant.

[Sanjay]

^captaineddie interacting with the person he suspects the most.

Unvote, Vote: captaineddie

eddie, claim what information wish you were thinking about in your very next post or I will use all my power to bring you down.

If you are town and your wish doesn't work out in the open, you're going to have to think of something else. Too bad.

[Sanjay]

Exactly.

[Sanjay]

Okay, good enough. I heard what I needed to hear.

[Sanjay]

While we are chatting, you want to talk to me about this yoyo roller coaster ride you are on with -L-?

[Sanjay]

I brought up that -L- post on page 14, before you made the post defending her.

It couldn't have screamed very loud.

[Sanjay]

The more I look at Peregrine's Vifam case on page 11, the more I wonder why we didn't just lynch him on page 12.

[Sanjay]

The answer should be clear, assuming you aren't assuming I'm an extremely silly person.

But, just in case:

Unvote

Vote: PV

You all can feel free to sheep me.

Especially Benmage.

[Sanjay]

Yeah.

That it's fake as shit.

[Sanjay]

I have some other reasons for voting for you too, though. Want to guess them?

[Sanjay]

I assumed Vifam was dialing it back a bit since, legitimately, that's a pretty pro-town thing for him to do.

But I don't know, maybe he's out on dates with pretty girls who like his personality.

What does that have to do with your Vifam case being hella-artificial?

[Sanjay]

Get ready for a motherfucking WALL OF TEXT. It seems long, but guess what? You don't actually have to read it if you just vote Peregrine. I address Benmage, MrZepher and kiwieagle specifically, so you can find your name and read that part if you don't want to read this friggin' masterwork...

I don't know why you all aren't on my wagon

. Well, my and adorkable's wagon, I GUESS. I don't know why Benmage left, but then I never knew why he was on it in the first place. Benmage claiming to have "engineered " this wagon is a joke. His entire case has been copying and pasting the phrase "sheep me".

Speaking of which,

Benmage

, since you apparently lost the mission, you want to explain those reasons you had about being coy with your PeregrineV case before? But more importantly, I want to hear what caused the turnaround. The second thing isn't about hunting you as much. I was actually pretty persuaded by your MrZepher defense and I agreed with your thoughts on -L-. I want to hear what you have to say. I really don't see the problem with the HD vote, if that's what's giving you the heebie jeebies.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm feeling a little better about you for your little crisis of faith here. I'm here for you, Benmage.

But whatever,

let's talk about PeregrineV

:

The thing about Peregrine's Vifam case is not that it is bad. It's that it is fake. It's incidentally bad but that's beside the point. Why it is fake:

1. There is an inauthenticity to it in so far as the strength of the conclusion doesn't follow from the strength of the argument.
2. PeregrineV somehow both can't conceive of why someone would fluff post so much as town, and yet fluff posts himself.
3. The effort to copy and paste all those quotes together doesn't really match the strength of the case it illustrates. That was probably a pain in the neck. Why wouldn't you just say "ISO'd Vifam. Almost all of his posts are about name claiming."? You're more likely to do it as scum for two reasons: One, having a big wall post full of quotes makes it look like you are putting in more effort. Two, mafia have less reason to believe the strength of their arguments stand on their own, so they need to put in more effort. They know they aren't acting on real scumtells. I'm not saying townies don't put in effort. I' m saying they are less likely to put in effort into stupid garbage while scumhunting.

By the way, I was shit-talking the case before I got this wagon going. Peregrine didn't feel like engaging with me then. Where was Peregrine when I said that it goes without saying that the case is unconvincing? He only started to care that I didn't understand his case once I started voting for him.

It's not all about the case, either. PeregrineV has been weirdly ambivalent with his attempts to break the game. Dude said he wasn't excited about it, but yet is trying to break the game constantly. The heck. Between that and the fluff posting, it really reads to me like Peregrine is just doing stuff because he's seen others do it for townpoints.

Kiwi

, you are right that the mafia doesn't always fall all over themselves. But PeregrineV has, and I think the best explanation is that he is mafia. Maybe you aren't taking Vifam seriously because you are raging at him right now, so maybe the question will come better from me: how does Peregrine's play make sense as town?

Could Vifam be mafia? Easily. I'm not taking his stream of consciousness posting as a towntell because he told me it wasn't one for him and don't see why he would lie about that regardless of alignment. I am taking his initial defense of wacky wishing as a towntell because I am right there with him, but that could have been faked. I understand if you are tunneled really hard on Vifam some things about the PeregrineV case may seem less convincing, but trust me: your tunneling on Vifam is not THAT justified.

MrZepher

, the day ends when we figure out someone to lynch. If we are lynching PeregrineV, we aren't delaying the day so we can chitchat with Klick without any pressure on him. Trust me, there will be enough people to scumhunt tomorrow no matter what happens. And without pressure, mafia can act townish pretty easily, and all we are doing is filling our thread with a bunch of bad data that dilutes the good stuff.

That said, Klick's kiwi vote is strange as heck because this is the towniest the slot has looked all game. How is going after confirmed town a scum thing exactly? Don't get me wrong. After that vote I am pretty sympathetic to a Klick wagon, but come on. You can't say that my wagon isn't better.

And, for what it's worth, I don't think Balrog is confirmed town, but I do think the passion with which he tried to break the setup, as well as the extent to which he's been probing what he can do with his wishes is at least a towntell. And the slot's read as townish to me so far, so whatever. Kiwi's Balrog case is not that bad in so far as I can follow the "Balrog is scum" narrative. I've seen worse. But it doesn't provide a better narrative than the "Balrog is town" one.

[Sanjay]

-L-, ISOs are really helpful for tackling a big thread, but make sure you are seeing the posts in context too.

For instance, I think the fact that Klick asked about why replacing out was a scumtell only after I brought up the idea that you've replaced out as town before gives him a lot less townpoints. I'm not saying it's a scumtell (the question kind of naturally follows from what I was saying. TownKlick could have easily asked it).

I can only imagine how frustrating it is to have Balrog go this long without answering your question. I mean, if I had asked you to explain what your motivation behind this post:

So now we have the following as town:

Me
Balrog
HD
Sanjay
PV
Vifam (probably)
-L-

and you still hadn't done it, I'd be super bummed!

What question exactly do you want Balrog to address?

[Sanjay]

Klick, you have a scum read on PeregrineV. Why not jump on board?

[Sanjay]

Klick, did you not read my big wall post? In it, I asked why you think going after Balrog is a scumtell.

You are only allowed to not read my big wall post if you JUMP ON BOARD.

[Sanjay]

If I add a positive number and a negative number, it always equals zero, no matter how big either number is. That's how math works, right?

Find me a player who HASN'T towntelled this game.

Why is going against the general consensus that a player is town a scumtell? Why are scum more likely to do it? Seems kind of like a stupid move for scum to do when there are much better options to me.

[Sanjay]

Debatable.

I notice kiwieagle's not on your silly list.

[Sanjay]

Sure am!

I'm glad you read that. You know, since until you vote for PeregrineV, you aren't allowed not to.

[Sanjay]

You're cool.

Could you tell me who you think PV's partners are?

I have some guesses.

Could you tell me why you want to know?

[Sanjay]

Sounds like you are trying to lynch the cart before the horse.

[Sanjay]

Klick, why would I want to lynch someone because I thought they were PV's partner without lynching PV first?

[Sanjay]

Yeah, that would be a better way to word it.

You know, since that way it isn't a scumslip.

[Sanjay]

Why?

You're trying to get me off PV because PV is a null tell for you?

You're trying to get yourself off Kiwieagle for basically no reason?

Klick, I'm hinting PRETTY DARN HARD regarding who I think one of PV's partners is here.

[Sanjay]

Balrog, I don't personally care about your answer, but I do think if you could specifically address -L- that would be solid.

Maybe quote the post where she votes for you and then say some stuff about it?

[Sanjay]

Balrog, I don't personally care about your answer, but I do think if you could specifically address -L- that would be solid.

Maybe quote the post where she votes for you and then say some stuff about it?

Wait, disregard this. You basically did on the last page.

Or don't. Whatever.

[Sanjay]

I was looking through HD's posts to see if Balrog was on to something. I didn't really see what Balrog was saying. (If you are talking about the action post 488 onward, I don't really see how HD's frequent posting is better explained by panic or fear than by him being town with stuff to say.)

But I did see something much better. I found cause for another

WALL OF TEXT

.

Deal with it.

But you don't have to read it as long as you accept the conclusions. The conclusions are that the scum team is, incontrovertibly

:

PeregrineV
Klick
Benmage

R.I.P. Sanjay's townread on Benmage (2013-2013). You were so young.

---

Look at this conversation with HD, starting here.

Especially the conclusion, this post:

Yes

I'm allowed to have null reads, don't go complaining about them as if everyone is some sort of scumhunting god

Certainly.

But you haven't prodded at him, asked him any questions, or commented on anything he's done. (Distancing much?)

How can you change this null read if you don't prod?

Why is he null to you? You have literally zero opinion on anything he's done?

What is Benmage trying to say here? That somehow it is a scumtell to not be aggressively going after your nullreads? What the hell? Who does that, regardless of alignment?

Further, this accusation of distancing is quite frankly INSANE. Town-Benmage has been very understanding of other players' misteps, and yet somehow he thinks not mentioning a player is suspicious. What? You can pretty much call any interaction between two people some combination of busing, distancing, defending and cognitive bias because you know your partner is non-town. It means practically nothing, especially pre-flips. And yet Benmage is going for this crappy line of thinking.

It reads as fake, and it reads as Benmage knowing that relational tells with PV are of scumhunting value

.

---

Add to this Benmage's defenses in response to HD starting here seem off to me. For three reasons:

1. The conversation ends when Benmage feels he has convinced us that he is town, not when he has convinced us that HD is mafia.
2. He asks HD to bullet why PV is scum, then completely ignores the bullets and the fact that HD came up with them relatively easily.
3. I'll admit that this is the weakest one of the points, but Benmage seems to dip much more naturally into the "why would I do this as mafia?" defense than the "here is why I am doing things" defense, which is something I'd expect mafia to do.

---

Lastly, and this goes along with reason 1 above, but Benmage has STILL shown a lot more passion gaining townpoints than he has going after scum. Has Benmage shown a lot of sass this game? Yes. Has he shown ANY of it actually scumhunting? No.

---

At the best, Benmage sorely needs to be much more transparent. He's been the more evasive about sharing his reasoning than Seanald. At worst, Benmage is mafia.

In the interest of fostering that transparency, here are some questions for him to answer

:

What made you initially suspicious of PV?
What was your motivation for holding back your reasons for suspecting PV, especially when your wagon was going NOWHERE?
What did you see that made you doubt your scumread on PV?
How do you feel about PV's defenses this game?
What's the case on HD, exactly? That he went from a null read to a scum read? Do you know how silly that sounds?
Anyway, the HD lynch isn't happening today. Who you like? Klick or PV?
Are you actually stuck in a snowdrift?

Here are some things that are hilarious if I am right:

1. Mafia-Benmage really doesn't want to be here. Town-Benmage has every reason to come in guns ablazing. The town is supposedly going to lynch a town read instead of his target, and he has shown that he likes defending town.
2. I think this is a pretty good case, and Klick has no reason not to jump on it.
3. This game is hilariously townsided and, if I am right, we've won without that. Ha ha ha.

Finally, a few extra observations

:

1. IF PV and Klick are mafia, it makes very little sense for Vifam to be mafia. Vifam suspected Kiwi, and Klick's attempt to start a Kiwi wagon makes a lot more sense if Vifam is town.
2. I am in -L-'s head. She is not mafia. DO NOT LYNCH HER.
3. adorkable is so obviously town. I'm sure most people see that but if you don't, look again.
4. captaineddie's whole "I am sooo sorry I defended -L-! Just let me live a night and I will prove myself" schtick is crazy townish (unless -L- is scum, which I don't think she is). Why would he feel like doing a 180 is even something worth defending unless he didn't know -L-'s alignment? Also, the whole "I will use my wish to save myself" thing seems kinda pointless as mafia, and really organic as town.
5.

Lastly, and most probably importantly

: Of the three probable members of the scumteam, I think PV is

technically

the best lynch today. Klick is less good because his case slightly assumes PV mafia, so why wouldn't we lych PV first?Benmage is less good because, I am forced to admit, his case is

a little

less rock solid. Plus half of you are still inexplicably townreading him, so whatever.

[Sanjay]

Fair warning:

I am going to hold the town hostage to my wall posts until we lynch PV.

This day needs to end.

[Sanjay]

I SUPPOSE I could be convinced to lynch Klick, I GUESS. His stoney silence after post 601 was kind of damning, even independently. I feel like the mafia team really doesn't want to be in the thread right now, but Klick's absence is a little more inexplicable than PV's, who is legitimately VLA.

Or it was.

Guess what, PV? VLA IS OVER.

Hope you enjoyed the prerelease.

[Sanjay]

HD, how do you feel about jumping over to the PV wagon, where the water is warm?

Klick, how do you feel about jumping over to the PV wagon, the only possible wagon that you lets you live today?

[Sanjay]

Hypocrisy itself isn't the scumtell.

Stating that you could not conceive of how Vifam's play is coming from town while simultaneously doing the same thing is what is the scumtell.

[Sanjay]

Benmage, way to pick out literally the least consequential thing from my post to address.

I think HD is town, for what it is worth.

[Sanjay]

Benmage is freaking out despite having literally no votes on him.

This is hilarious.

[Sanjay]

What's your read on me, Benmage?

Because you keep questioning me like you have a scumread.
But you keep telling me I'm wrong like you know I'm town.

[Sanjay]

Do you think flurries of posting in response to scrutiny are scummy, Benmage?

INTERESTING.

[Sanjay]

Do you know what an engineer does, Benmage?

Do they just sit there and say "I am an engineer, sheep me" and do nothing all day?

I would hope that they do something, because all my friends who were engineering students always used to bitch about how hard it was to be an engineering student. Why would they work them that hard if they didn't have to do anything?

[Sanjay]

Benmage, if you want to keep chatting, please answer my questions for greater transparency from my wall post.

It's not that the Vifam case is bad. It is that it is ARTIFICIAL.

The same dude wrote a magnum opus about the virtues of fluffposting from all alignments. How did the same person write this?

So no organizing wishes, but let's all massclaim our rolenames.

Wishes that allow us to do almost anything, including win the game are boring, but rolename discussion "gives extra spice"?

Don't want to "everyone just follows some list" about wishes, but hey, rolenames!!

How does that knowledge help you catch scum? And how is your insistence on it town?

Vote: Vifam

and this?

I don't see the scum motivation from Vifam here.

Do you see town motivation?

That and the fact that he didn't start questioning why I thought the case was bad until after I voted him for it are the major things that convince me he's mafia.

There's some other vibey things but that's the meat of what I can quote. This post struck me as pretty fake too, though I hadn't mentioned that one yet.

Peregrine, I think it's pretty fuckin' clear what I think your Vifam case is based on what I have posted. You are saying you don't see how Vifam's posts come from town. Am I right? Am I right? What do I win?

[Sanjay]

You don't have to answer the one about whether or not you are stuck in a snowdrift, BTW.

And NOBODY has to wait for Benmage to answer these questions to end the day.

[Sanjay]

adorkable's PSA goes double for alignment switches.

And, while we are talking about wishes, I think I'm going to spend some of the townpoints I've apparently accrued today to do something super anti-town.

Anti-fairies, get ready for some free advice:

Don't backfire my wish.

Please don't backfire my wish.

Whoever you are, whatever else you are planning to do, backfiring my wish won't really help you that much.

I know what my wish is. I've known what I wanted my wish to be before I even had a wish. Backfiring it will barely help you.

You might be thinking: I am WIFOMing you and trying to get you not to mess with something important I am going to do. I'm not.

You might be thinking: I am WIFOMing you by telling you I'm not WIFOMing you. I'm not.

Don't backfire my wish.

[Sanjay]

Peregrine, you didn't respond to my posts either.

I mean, I see where you quoted them and then typed a bunch of words but all I read was BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[Sanjay]

If you are town, thanks a bunch for self-hammering. That's real fuckin' golden.

If you are scum, thanks a bunch for self-hammering. Legitimately.

[Sanjay]

ITT PV makes arguments about how people are ignoring points he makes while still ignoring points made against him.

Basically this.

PV, if you are town and you think it is SOOOOOOO important that someone answer your questions, why did you put your life on a timer?

There's no good reason.

You know what? I hope you are town.

Because if you are town you just suck at this game.

If you are mafia you are an asshole.

[Sanjay]

PeregrineV, here's a funny thing to think about.

Let's play the "OH, WON'T YOU HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACE WHEN I FLIP" game. Eventually, we will all flip.

If you are town and I am town: you look incompetent because you self-hammered and everything I did is understandable because sometimes people are wrong.
If you are mafia and I am town: you look incompetent because you self-hammered and I look like a fuckin' bad-ass.
If you are town and I am mafia: you look incompetent because you self-hammered and I look like a fuckin' bad-ass.
If you are mafia and I am mafia: This option is too awesome to conceive. Unfortunately, we both know this isn't the case.

Basically, if you wanted to play to your win condition and you thought I was dodging your questions, why stab yourself in the neck before you pressed me?

[Sanjay]

I dont think I've ever seen town hammer... so thats cool.

I think I've only ever seen town hammer, so I'm kinda freaking out.

But whatever.

[Sanjay]

You gave yourself the dayvig, I assume?

[Sanjay]

I don't think counterclaims matter THAT much for this unless someone chose to be a watcher or tracker. I doubt anyone did given if you really wanted information you could just be a cop.

Because of that, I'm pretty comfortable with people just claiming whatever they want to start out and then we can decide if we want to do something more organized.

With that in mind, the spirit doesn't especially move me to claim anything right now.

[Sanjay]

It kind of sucks for you that you claimed dayvig, because now we all get to discuss what you should do with your gun, rather than you just shooting indiscriminately.

[Sanjay]

Care to elaborate?

[Sanjay]

So you are saying is that I am so good at reading you I was picking up scumwaves not from your role PM but from your very desires?

[Sanjay]

[Sanjay]

Vifam, I kinda think you are scum now and it is bumming me out.

[Sanjay]

What'd you wish for?

[Sanjay]

Holy shit, that is a shitty wish.

[Sanjay]

"With all the infinite possibilities of the cosmos and the power of my imagination, I wish for an extremely mundane power to find out information I should probably have from reading the thread".

-Vifam

[Sanjay]

Sanjay you should claim.

We should have a mass claim for wishes and check for inaccuracies.

I kinda don't want to but whatever.

I wished to become Obi-Sanjay Kenobi.

I made this to go along with it.

[Sanjay]

The role does some other stuff too besides just changing my name, but I don't really feel like claiming that part.

[Sanjay]

Vifam, I really hope you are scum because if you are town reading my wish right now and figuring out how much my wish sucks in comparison to yours, I am worried about your mental health.

[Sanjay]

WAIT, that's a typo. Your wish is the one that sucks.

[Sanjay]

That was okayed? That's amazing.

[Sanjay]

Seriously, start claiming people are town one by one.

[Sanjay]

You've probably thought this out so forgive me if you've already thought of this, but start with the people you think are town. The investigations stop when you hit your second scum. We want as many as possible.

[Sanjay]

Klick, are you PMing numberQ every time you post to see if you've made any mistakes?

This is going to take a little bit of time, huh?

[Sanjay]

Actually, don't answer anything.

I don't want you talking any more than you need to.

[Sanjay]

Every time you post something that isn't alignment related, I get a heart-attack.

[Sanjay]

Every time you post something that isn't alignment related, I get a heart-attack.

Not actually true.

See how easy it is to mess up?

[Sanjay]

I think we need to take a second to unpack this, MrZepher.

Firstly, if you were targeted by anti-fairies last night, you were backfired unless Benmage is lying about being backfired himself.

If you were backfired, we need to take your information results with a bit of a grain of salt.

Adorkable and captaineddie should claim what they did last night.

captaineddie first, I guess?

[Sanjay]

You wanna just wait for adorkable and eddie to claim and we'll drag ourselves through the logical implications after?

[Sanjay]

Why the heck were all these players targeting MrZepher???

[Sanjay]

Is it possible for Adorkable and Vifam to be scum instead of Adorkable and Benmage if Eddie is town?

[Sanjay]

Town cult recruiter or cult cult recruiter?

[Sanjay]

Also, elaborate on reasoning please.

[Sanjay]

Cult.

The hell is a Town Cult Recruiter?

A person with the town alignment who can recruit people into a cult.

I don't know why you would ever make someone that, but this wish is off the deep end so I figured anything is possible.

[Sanjay]

Attempt as in... as far as I know, the mod accepted our action? We haven't been given any indication that we failed...

@Sanjay: for the lulz.

What were you thinking though?

Why was this funnier than all other options?

[Sanjay]

Wait hold on

If MrZepher is telling the truth, adorkable has to be scum

If he received CE scum, CE would've had to kill or backfire

He couldn't have backfired since he showed up scum

Zepher was not protected, so it couldn't have been a kill.

Therefore, adorkable backfired Zepher and one of {Vifam, Benmage}. Whichever one wasn't backfired is scum.

Agreed.

And if Klick's results are accurate, Benmage is scum. Which also is consistent with his recent in thread freakout and his general attempts to get Klick to investigate him.

[Sanjay]

MrZepher, if you don't think you were backfired, explain to me how two players targeted you from apparently opposite alignments and you aren't dead.

[Sanjay]

Why don't we wait on eddie just in case we are all thicker than we think.

Pretty sure the logical ramifications are adorkable and Benmage are scum though.

[Sanjay]

How does asking Klick to confirm me town, make me scum in any sense of logic?


Klick has no warnings aye?

One, the sooner Klick gets warned, the less innocents he can pile up. Duh.

Two, that's not why you are scum.

You are scum IF Klick is legit because you claimed to be backfired and Vifam AND MrZepher were backfired.

[Sanjay]

I suppose I could ask why we, as scum, would claim Cult Recruiter given the situation... I mean there's a million other things we could fakeclaim if we were lying but nope you're saying we basically claimed scum

But I'm guessing you'll all just yell LOL WIFOM so I won't bother

Didn't you claim scum? Wasn't that what the TVTropes link was about?

[Sanjay]

There's the outside chance that MrZepher is scum, so we should probably wait for eddie.

But then, it's your gun, you can shoot who you want.

[Sanjay]

I want to wait on Eddie before we fire.

Also Sanjay we don't know that Vifam was backfired. Vifam could be scum with Adorkable in which case it was her attempt to get townpoints while psuedo confirming Adorkable.
Once we can figure out what happened with my wish we can move back to Klick and Benmage yeah?

IF Klick is town AND his post restriction thing works the way he thinks it does, we know Vifam is town.

[Sanjay]

For the lulz.

[Sanjay]

Kill: adorkable

I am using my next wish to turn me into this picture.

[Sanjay]

Did you wish for any particular flavor for your role, HD, or did you just wish to be a dayvig?

PRO-TIP: YOU CAN WISH FOR FLAVOR FOR YOUR ROLES AND IT MAKES IT WAAAAY BETTER.

[Sanjay]

adorkable, you were fun to play with.

I hope

A) We can play in a game with the same alignment some time.

and

B) We can play in a game with better balance (or balance that is in both our favor) some time.

[Sanjay]

At this point, assuming Klick's role works the way he says it does (which might be a big assumption, because that role is CRAZY) the game is over.

Nothing can prevent Klick from getting two guilties.

There are only two anti-fairies left.

What we need to do now is PRETEND we don't know that so we can make more awesome wishes.

[Sanjay]

If Klick is the other scum that's amazing.

[Sanjay]

Like, he's not even playing towards his win condition if that's the case. He's just playing to troll us.

[Sanjay]

If Klick is scum it could be Klick/Benmage, but that would be really weird and wouldn't explain Benmage's play as well.

[Sanjay]

They are probably too busy chatting it up in that neighborhood with Benmage.

[Sanjay]

Sooooo, Kiwieagle?

[Sanjay]

Unless he was just mod-killed for being too overpowered.

[Sanjay]

Which, actually, would be pretty fair.

[Sanjay]

Vote: Benmage

[Sanjay]

That's a neat wish, Balrog.

[Sanjay]

So -L- is the only one with a potential explanation for why there is this awesome neighborhood?

Sounds like -L- thought of a much cooler wish than Vifam too.

[Sanjay]

Did Klick post who he got warned about? I'm pretty sure Benmage is scum at this point, but did we just see kiwi get confirmed as scum?

I don't think we did.

I think there's enough of a chance that numberQ realized that Klick's power was too powerful and killed him because of it.

[Sanjay]

kiwi could totally be the last scum though.

There's only so many candidates.

HD is def. confirmed town.
captaineddie is almost certainly confirmed town (barring an adorkable/captaineddie/MrZepher scumteam)
MrZepher is almost certainly confirmed town (barring some pretty extreme and brilliant adorkable busing)

[Sanjay]

Whoops, I submitted that before I was finished.

I am probably confirmed town (assuming Klick's role worked.)
Vifam is probably confirmed town (assuming Klick's role worked.)
Balrog is probably confirmed town (assuming Klick's role worked.)
-L- is probably confirmed town because neither Benmage's "wish" or Balrog's explain why there is a neighborhood.

That leaves:

Benmage, Seanald, Kiwieagle.

Assuming everything I've said is correct, only one of those players is town.

[Sanjay]

Luckily, you don't really need to read the pages. It's mostly unimportant nonsense.

Benmage is scum because:

Vifam got an innocent on adorkable and therefore must have been backfired if town.
MrZepher got an innocent on adorkable and therefore must have been backfired.
Klick most likely got an innocent on Vifam and therefore Vifam must have been backfired.
Benmage claims that his wish to be a serial killer backfired and that caused him to get put into a neighborhood with Balrog and -L-. He then tried to get -L- daykilled before she could claim her wish (likely the ACTUAL reason there is a neighborhood).

There's no way for Benmage to have been backfired because the anti-fairies can only backfire twice.
His play has been hella scummy anyway.

[Sanjay]

Benmage, if your claim was true, it would make me want to lynch you more rather than less.

Reasons:

1. We have plenty of lynches.
2. If you aren't an anti-fairy, the scumteam is pretty much known.
3. A player with a wish who has demonstrated his main goal is to screw us over rather than play to his win condition is more of a danger than a found scum team.

[Sanjay]

What'd you wish for, Seanald?

[Sanjay]

Klick had a post restriction that made him not allowed to lie. He started saying stuff like "X is the same alignment as me this game" and seeing if he got modkilled.

He got through me, Vifam, Balrog and kiwi before getting modkilled. However, of note, he didn't quite get modkilled the way he thought, in so far as he didn't get a warning first.

[Sanjay]

Not if the role worked the way he asked. He was supposed to receive a warning after his first lie. He received no warning.

[Sanjay]

Precisely.

I'm disappointed that this game has come down to 'Who fucked up their Night action' over behavioral analysis.

Me too.

Though apparently I was wrong about most of my reads, so maybe it's all for the best.

[Sanjay]

Just so you know, HD, you aren't actually voting Benmage (your vote was reset when Klick incinerated).

[Sanjay]

======[]

Hammer.

[Sanjay]

Sorry, -L-.

[Sanjay]

I thought that was the hammer.

I count:

Me, MrZepher, Vifam, Seanald, Balrog, HD: 6 votes.

You can get on this too if you want.

[Sanjay]

Actually, it's Obi-Sanjay now.

Check out these two posts for a quick summary of what we've learned today.

[Sanjay]

I will similarly be bad to target with a backfire action.

Not because it will do anything particularly anti-mafia.

Just because backfiring it won't do anything particularly pro-mafia.

[Sanjay]

Benmage, you aren't really in a great position to be lecturing us on optimal play.

[Sanjay]

I think we should all take a second to reflect on this:

Regardless of the strategic boneheadedness involved, and regardless of how it may have affected our own win conditions, Benmage's wish was actually pretty cool and awesome.

Pretty much every single person in the world made a better wish than Vifam.

[Sanjay]

Do you actually have a kill or did you just change alignment?

[Sanjay]

Benmage's wish makes me think that this game might be more amazing if the bad guys had wishes too. It's kind of hard for mafia to fake infinite cosmic power.

In other news, I think it is kinda weird that the thread hasn't been shut now. I sent numberQ a PM, he picked it up, and I saw him looking at the thread. I have a small suspicion of shenanigans.

[Sanjay]

I did. That was some A+ level sass right there.

Seanald, a wishclaim, please.

[Sanjay]

Oh right.

You were saving your wishes until marriage or something.

[Sanjay]

Holy shit, Balrog. If I had lived, I could have recruited TWO padawans.

[Sanjay]

This is clearly the best role I have ever received.

P.S. despite being town, I also wished for a fakeclaim.

I know Ben Kenobi is not in the game.

That is, unless Vifam is Ben Kenobi.

[Sanjay]

So Vifam either did the honorable thing and chose not to confirm himself with his wish or he is scum's last hope.

Maybe Seanald isn't so honorable?

[Sanjay]

Lightsaber: Seanald

[Sanjay]

Lightsaber: Seanald

The answer is probably obvious, but I feel like I should ask anyway, for the sake of Da Rules... Is this a vote?

Nah. I can't vote.

Can't lightsaber either.

Like Seanald, I am just making things up.

[Sanjay]

Kinda would have been funny to shoot Seanald just so we could win this without ever having correctly lynched a single mafioso.

[Sanjay]

Apparently captaineddie isn't?

[Sanjay]

Maybe it's hard to shoot Seanald since his only vulnerability is a small thermal exhaust port right below the main port.

Have you tried using the force, -L-?

[Sanjay]

I stand by what I said about Benmage's wish. Really not strategically optimal given how crazy powerful the town was, but a very cool wish. Probably my favorite wish in the game that I didn't personally wish for.

I think the most powerful thing the town could do was confirm themselves. Yes, because of the day vigs we got a million lynches that could not be blocked, but the biggest problem mafia faced that if a townie had the mind to confirm themselves as town, there was nothing they could do to stop that from happening. Mafia absolutely need wishes for this to work, I think.

Either that or mafia needs way more control over the wishes they backfire. Doing the exact opposite doesn't really do anything if the town is ready for it.

I enjoyed this game and I love this setup and want to help fix it.

By the way, mafia played pretty well this game. Adorkable seemed very townish, kiwi leaned town to me and Seanald at least kept a low profile. I think you probably could have been more proactive in your wish choices (claim guilties on people, do stuff to get townies lynched and end the day, after all that claim you were backfired) and you probably should have ignored the option to backfire because it doesn't really do anything. That's all hindsight, of course. But good game.

I'll post more later if anyone's still reading. I'm gonna go watch some Buffy.

[Sanjay]

All in all, this was my role PM.

Spoiler:

You are

Obi-Sanjay Kenobi

,

town 2-shot weak neighborizing reflexive tree stump

.



[-] During the day, you may talk and vote.

[-]

Strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine

: On death, you gain the ability to post in any threads or QTs you would otherwise have access to.

[-]

Why do I get the feeling you'll be the death of me?

: During the day, you can recruit two Padawans. You will get a QT with each Padawan in which you can daytalk. However, if your Padawan learner turns out to have a different alignment from you, getting the QT will also kill you.

[-]

Now, that's a name I've not heard in a long time

: I know that "Ben Kenobi" is not in the game.

[-] You win when the Anti-Fairies are no longer a threat.

Credit for the original Obi-Wan Kenobi image here.

[Sanjay]

Reflexive treestump and weak day neighborizer both roles I've always wanted to play. They synergize pretty well together too.

Reflexive treestump turned out to be just as awesome as I hoped it would be. Kind of a ridiculous thing for me to wish for in thus particular game given how bad my reads were. Luckily, my read that the town could spare a few wishes and I could just wish for fun stuff turned out to be the only thing I was right about.

I didn't really get to be much of a weak day neighborizer, but that's just as well because obviously the town didn't need ANOTHER confirmed innocent or guilty. I would really love to play as one in a regular game.

[Sanjay]

Peregrine, I'm sorry my reads were so bad this game. I really didn't want to mislynch day 1 and deprive anyone of wishes, and I messed up big time.

[Sanjay]

I think to a certain extent, restrictions on wishes make the wishes more fun. This game, if I was wholeheartedly playing to win, I never could have wished for some of the cool stuff I did, just because there would certainly be other options that would be more backbreaking for the mafia. The more of those options that are cut off, the more you either feel empowered to just wish for whatever or feel awesome for breaking the game.

I'd strongly consider a no killing clause. I'd also consider a restriction that wishes cannot investigate. You simply can't have that many investigations without it just being a game of dethy with all sane cops. My role to be weak was probably unfair in this way too. Maybe the restriction could be that wishes cannot be conditional based on an unknown alignment.

A reason I bring up these restrictions is that while I thought the "no collusion" wish restriction was necessary, it's also one that would be nice to be removed.