[ACCESS CODE 1461] Paradox Prime - Endgame

[PeregrineV]

I'm here but confess I haven't read all the flavor yet. Why are there only three of us?

[PeregrineV]

I still don't get it. I read the rules/flavor, but let's discuss.

1) During the pre-game phase, the Alien faction will create the original timeline, dictating who is alive at the start of each day phase by removing pairs of players.
a. The timeline will extend to a feasible LYLO situation
b. This means that at no point can scum dictate a timeline in which they outnumber town, or in which all scum are eradicated.
c. This timeline will be undisclosed to the town.

Mafia creates a timeline saying who is alive at the start of each day. I guess one is the person lynched, and one is the NK?

[PeregrineV]

I still don't get it. I read the rules/flavor, but let's discuss.

1) During the pre-game phase, the Alien faction will create the original timeline, dictating who is alive at the start of each day phase by removing pairs of players.
a. The timeline will extend to a feasible LYLO situation
b. This means that at no point can scum dictate a timeline in which they outnumber town, or in which all scum are eradicated.
c. This timeline will be undisclosed to the town.

Mafia creates a timeline saying who is alive at the start of each day. I guess one is the person lynched, and one is the NK?

[PeregrineV]

1) Each day, players can choose to send someone through a Temporal Gate into a future day phase of their choice.
a. That player will be told who is still alive according to the current timeline.
b. This information will be privately communicated by the mod.
c. Players are allowed to share any information they gain, but may not quote mod communications.
d. Players travelling to a dayphase in which they themselves are dead will create a paradox (see below).

2) Temporal Gates disrupt the cybernetic implants fitted onto certain roles. This will reduce the number of times a player can go through the Gate.
a. No Cybernetic Implants - allows unlimited travel via Temporal Gates.
b. Mild Cybernetic Implants - allows player to travel twice through Temporal Gates over the course of the game.
c. Major Cybernetic Implants - allows player to travel once through Temporal Gates over the course of the game.
d. Robotic players cannot travel through Temporal Gates at all.

Has anyone traveled?

[PeregrineV]

Since we're starting in LYLO I can't think of a good reason not to claim

I am AI39-263-270, a Science AI that falls under the "robotic" identifier. Each night I pick one player and one day phase and learn if they are alive that day. I'm still trying to work out what exactly this allows me to do.

Who are you guys?

Since it's day 6, do you have 5 nights of results?

I'll claim, since why not.

Ensign Angela Taratuta. I like to workout, kick ass, and take long walks on the beach. My favorite color is green, and my goal is to someday become the world's youngest tac officer. I'm also human, and prefer to date other humans.

[PeregrineV]

I'm not claiming fully, and prefer not to claim or hint at my ability(ies).

I didn't think we'd be starting in Lylo, I thought it was going to be we start at 13, aliens choose pairs of players that die from day phase to day phase and they gotta kill one of the two per night phase and use a paradox to do it.

So I don't get what's going on now. I'll read the rules again though.

However, I remember reading that there must be a scum at Lylo => one of the three of us here is scum

Also I'm 100% human, that means I can go through the time machine blah blah infinite times. If there's no chance that I won't be here the next day then I'd suggest I always go through, today and all days henceforth. If aliens are supposed to select one of us to actually die over the night phase, then I'm not going to risk it.

I have an opinion on that claim above, but I would like to ask Peregrine to claim (despite the fact that I refuse to claim, forgive me, there is a good reason) so I can compare.

One of you two will be the lynch today. And if I were to claim you both would understand that.

Same question. Since it's day 6, do you have any results of stuff that already happened?

[PeregrineV]

PV, is that the extent of your claim, that you are essentially vanilla and have no augmentations?

I have a cool video too, but yes, that's it.

[PeregrineV]

I have a good educated guess as to who the mafia is in this lylo already. How about you guys? Or are you still working on reads, figuring out game mechanics, or feel the need for more discussion, (or perhaps a claim from me)?

Not really sure how this will pan out. If we all go back in time at the end, they'll be 3 confirmed players. If the dead one does not, they'll be 2 town or 1 town and 1 scum that go back. Either way, town has good odds based only on today's info.

As for your claim, I guess I would prefer it. But, also inclined to vote Desp at this point, so not really vital, unless you can add info to today.

@Desp- Thoughts on what happens when today ends.

[PeregrineV]

I have no idea what happens when today ends.

Are you suspicious of my claim? Why are you inclined to vote me over Dan when, of the three of us, he clearly has the most information right now?

Kind of two reasons:
1. He claims human, so if he's town then we should be able to gate him forward or something, thus keeping a confirmed town alive.
2. You claimed

I am AI39-263-270, a Science AI that falls under the "robotic" identifier. Each night I pick one player and one day phase and learn if they are alive that day. I'm still trying to work out what exactly this allows me to do.

and haven't said anything else about it. It sounds like you can say "SaintKerrigan, day2" and find out what exactly? By work it out, did you ask the mod, think about it, or what?

I think it's more likely that he seems to know more about the setup than it is that you're faking not knowing about it.

???
Can you break this into smaller sentences?

[PeregrineV]

I have no idea what happens when today ends.

Are you suspicious of my claim? Why are you inclined to vote me over Dan when, of the three of us, he clearly has the most information right now?

Kind of two reasons:
1. He claims human, so if he's town then we should be able to gate him forward or something, thus keeping a confirmed town alive.
2. You claimed

I am AI39-263-270, a Science AI that falls under the "robotic" identifier. Each night I pick one player and one day phase and learn if they are alive that day. I'm still trying to work out what exactly this allows me to do.

and haven't said anything else about it. It sounds like you can say "SaintKerrigan, day2" and find out what exactly? By work it out, did you ask the mod, think about it, or what?

I think it's more likely that he seems to know more about the setup than it is that you're faking not knowing about it.

???
Can you break this into smaller sentences?

First part: You claim human as well, so I'm not really sure why that makes him special?

And by work it out I meant I can't know for sure what my role does until we get out of this situation. At the moment, I don't understand how my role functions and likely won't be able to until we go to night and figure out why we started in LYLO.

Second part: Do you agree that Dan seems to have a better grasp of all of this than we do? He says we would understand once he claimed, but he's hesitant to do so. I have no fucking idea what's going on, and neither do you (it seems to me).

So what's more likely? That Dan is scum, is responsible for the timeline, likely knows why we're in LYLO right now, and has had more reason to understand the nuances of the setup than you (a VT) and me (a non-time travelling Robot)?

Or you faking not knowing anything about the setup?

Because I'm thinking Dan is scum.

Crap.

OK, Dan claims.

[PeregrineV]

I'd like Peregrine to answer what he was thinking by posting "crap, well Dan claims". Did Desperdo's post severely alter your thinking?

He mostly made me think by making some points which stood out.

Do you agree that Dan seems to have a better grasp of all of this than we do? He says we would understand once he claimed, but he's hesitant to do so.

You do seem to have a better grasp about what's going on. I think I kind of get it now (sort of), but you came in with the sound of someone with extra knowledge.

And you

were

hesitant to claim. I guess I see why now.

[PeregrineV]

@Dan

You actually do it again in the bolded:

I mentioned I was suspicious of his claim immediately, so for completeness I'll elaborate.

Knowledge that claim could produce is knowledge scum already have.

They produced the timeline, they know who dies when. So they'll know if someone is alive on a particular day or not. So it looks like a confirmable role but isn't really.

What knowledge does scum already have?

[PeregrineV]

You've both stated we are in LYLO. Considering it's listed as day 6, and there are three of us, I guess that kind of makes sense.

But, can one or both of you give a breakdown of how the game *starts* in LYLO, based on what you think or know.

I've played time travel games before, but each player lived a game day, and mafia kills could only be on a day shared by scum and town, or the whole game was in a specifc time, giving each player different abilities.

I've read a backwards game, where people where revived according to voting.

I've seen roles that have had to give all targets in advance, so I kind of get that.

What I don't get is how this is the end of the game when we haven't played.

[PeregrineV]

All right, let's work through this.

1) During the pre-game phase, the Alien faction will create the original timeline, dictating who is alive at the start of each day phase by removing pairs of players.
a. The timeline will extend to a feasible LYLO situation
b. This means that at no point can scum dictate a timeline in which they outnumber town, or in which all scum are eradicated.
c. This timeline will be undisclosed to the town.

Sample timeline
D1 Lynch-Platypus, ???, Killed ??
N1 Kill-SaintKerrigan, ???, Killed ??
D2-Sixty, ???, Killed ??
N2-kanyeknowsbest, ???, Killed ??
D3-Ghostlin, ???, Killed ??
N3-Rift Adrift, ???, Killed ??
D4-Natirasha, ???, Killed ??
N4-RoboKitty, ???, Killed ??
D5-Minimal, ???, Killed ??
N5-MafiaSSK, ???, Killed ??

OK, I see how this can be day6 and lylo if this was the "timeline" created.

2) Lynches that go against the current timeline will create a paradox (see below). In the event of a paradox-creating lynch, a new timeline will be created in one of three ways:
a. In the event of a mislynch or a no lynch, the Alien faction will create a new timeline
b. In the event of a lynch on an Alien, a new timeline will be created by the player who cast the hammer vote.
c. In the event of a self-hammer by an Alien, the new timeline will be created by the player who placed the L-1 vote.

So, scum says everyone alive except Platypus & Saint Kerrigan at the start of day2.
This means that if someone other than Platypus or SK is lynched, a paradox is created.
If a paradox is created because someone other than those 2 are lynched, then depending on who was lynched a new timeline is created.
If town, Aliens make new timeline.
If scum, hammer vote creates new timeline.
If scum self-hammer, L-1 vote creates the new timeline.
If a new timeline is not created, that means we lynched according to the initial-scum-timeline.

Interesting. I think that this will make vote count analysis much more relevant. If scum want to keep their timeline creating power, they will be much more active on lynches. They will either be all over one of their 2 choices, or will want to hammer the "out-of-timeline" choice in order to keep timeline making.

3) The Aliens are bound by their temporality, and must therefore adhere to the current timeline where possible when deciding their kills.
a. This means that the Aliens cannot kill a player who should be alive in the following day phase, according to the current timeline.
b. This rule can be circumvented by paradoxes (see below)

This kind of points to the fact that scum will want to keep timeline control. It also seems to mean that scum will know any new timeline created by town because they have to follow it, so any town that

creates a timeline needs to post it for all to see

. It also seems like town-timelines should be discussed beforehand, so that the scummiest people are always the lynch/NK choice. This will force scum to kill themselves or use paradoxes.

Paradoxes
1) The Aliens are allowed to make one kill per night.
a. They must use one paradox in order to make a kill that follows the current timeline.
b. They can spend two paradoxes to make a kill that breaks the current timeline. Please note that this action will not create additional paradoxes.
c. In the event that Aliens are forced to kill a member of their own faction according to the timeline, they can choose to spend one paradox to perform No Kill.

Let's assume scum never kills themselves. This means they start with 5 paradoxes, one for each NK on the current timeline.
Deviation from the "active" timeline costs more paradoxes, and no-kills cost a paradox.
This needs more thought, but if scum can be forced to use all of thier paradoxes and avoid gaining more, we can get some additional days.

Time Travel

1) Each day, players can choose to send someone through a Temporal Gate into a future day phase of their choice.
a. That player will be told who is still alive according to the current timeline.
b. This information will be privately communicated by the mod.
c. Players are allowed to share any information they gain, but may not quote mod communications.
d. Players travelling to a dayphase in which they themselves are dead will create a paradox (see below).

1.a. This makes a little more sense now. Town would/should gain control of the timeline by lynching scum, but every mislynch sends the timeline back into scum hands.
This can be used at daystart to see who the scum want lynched/nightkilled. Then we can avoid them, except if scum has scum listed as one of the dead players....
OK, now I see how this might work.
1.d. is another paradox-generator...

2) Temporal Gates disrupt the cybernetic implants fitted onto certain roles. This will reduce the number of times a player can go through the Gate.
a. No Cybernetic Implants - allows unlimited travel via Temporal Gates.
b. Mild Cybernetic Implants - allows player to travel twice through Temporal Gates over the course of the game.
c. Major Cybernetic Implants - allows player to travel once through Temporal Gates over the course of the game.
d. Robotic players cannot travel through Temporal Gates at all.

@Avox- How many players can go through the Gate in a single day?

OK, now I think I get it better, time to re-read you two.

[PeregrineV]

Since we're starting in LYLO I can't think of a good reason not to claim

I am AI39-263-270, a Science AI that falls under the "robotic" identifier. Each night I pick one player and one day phase and learn if they are alive that day. I'm still trying to work out what exactly this allows me to do.

Who are you guys?

So pretend you are not lynched day1 (since all of us are alive), so night1 you pick a player and day phase and learn if they are alive.
If you said Ghostlin day3, you'd get yes. If you said KKB day 4, you'd get no.
But, that was according to the initial-scum-timeline. If a new timeline is created because of the lynch is not on SK or Platypus, do you get the old or the new timeline?

And your action sounds like it gives very minimal information (you get one name), whereas travel through the gate gives everyone's name.

[PeregrineV]

I'm Doctor Tiberius Grant and I'm a reviver. I cannot help but think I have the strongest role in the game. If I revive a player, it comes with the cost of creating a paradox, but that's the only drawback.

So same scenario. You live past day1. Assume Platypus lynch and he flips town. Timeline stays the same.
Scum either kills SK using one paradox, or someone else using 2 paradoxes.
You can revive Platypus, but it creates a paradox.
.....
Day 1 assume lynch on not-SK or not-Platypus. That itself creates a paradox.
If town lynch, scum make new timeline.
You revive town, making another paradox.
If scum lynch with town hammer, town makes new timeline. You don't revive.

If either of you have clarifications based on how I think it works, please do so now.

[PeregrineV]

I'm waiting on Dan to respond

This.

[PeregrineV]

@Avox- How many players can go through the Gate in a single day?

Not sure if I'm not getting an answer, or if it was missed.

@Dan- ???

[PeregrineV]

Intent to vote.

[PeregrineV]

Weekend is coming up. I don't always get to the site on weekends, and deadline looks to be Sunday.

I'll check back, but FTR, I don't see town flaking in LYLO.

[PeregrineV]

Since I don't know where the game goes after this, recording this for prosperity.

@ActionDan-

My initial thought was Desparado, because, let's be frank, he claimed first post, and seemed to get what was going on (the lylo comment). You seemed to confirm the lylo thing in 8, and then give the partial claim (you are human).

But, then Desp. had no problem responding, and did point out that you seemed to have a better grasp on things (29).

And he had no problem responding to you (34) or to me (41, 48). I feel that type of engagement come more often from town.

After I finally get it, I do a reread. And 8 and 10 seem like you already know all the crap I figured out.

And 24 strikes me as town wanting to get the most information to make the right decision.

With that said:

Vote: ActionDan

[PeregrineV]

So, this should mean Dan is confirmed town, and Desp is confirmed scum.

Vote: Desparado

[PeregrineV]

Will catchup here tonight.

[PeregrineV]

I had a good line on the timeline stuff, I thought, but I think Kayne managed to confuse me again.

With Desp flip, Dan and I are confirmed town. Killing either of us, since we were in lylo, would cost 2 paradoxes, so that helps somewhat. Assuming they kill from the current timeline, that leaves two confirmed town for day2. Dan can then revive the NK, making it three confirmed town.

Currently think Sixty, Minimal, are town based on play.
Think SaintK is town based on play, but I also fell like there are some backhanded compliments in there somewhere.
Think Rift Adrift is town if their claim is true. I don't see scum planning on a scumlynch day1 or day2. (Or at least I sure as hell wouldn't plan it that way.) That means that the first four listed on the timeline should be town.

Want to hear more on the dead QT. There should have been some scumhunting going on in there- would like to hear thoughts on that, as well as an opinion of both Desp and me. Anyone that doesn't have an opinion is probably scum.

Oh, Matrisha also seems town.

Enough for now, will check in again tomorrow (4th) and/or 5th.

[PeregrineV]

With Desp flip, Dan and I are confirmed town. Killing either of us, since we were in lylo, would cost 2 paradoxes, so that helps somewhat. Assuming they kill from the current timeline, that leaves two confirmed town for day2. Dan can then revive the NK, making it three confirmed town.

You're presuming that Desp is scum, which everyone not you or Des doesn't know for sure, and mafia has no roles that can't create paradoxes today.

Yes, I am.

Since day 1-6 was lylo, which we've all pretty much agreed it was, that means one of me, Dan or Desp is scum. Dan has flipepd town, I know my role, which only leaves Desp.
If you think Day 1-6 was not "real" somehow, then let's hear it. Otherwise, your vote should be on me or Desp.

And I did point this out, which I believe to be true:

Paradoxes
1) The Aliens are allowed to make one kill per night.
a. They must use one paradox in order to make a kill that follows the current timeline.
b. They can spend two paradoxes to make a kill that breaks the current timeline. Please note that this action will not create additional paradoxes.
c. In the event that Aliens are forced to kill a member of their own faction according to the timeline, they can choose to spend one paradox to perform No Kill.

Let's assume scum never kills themselves. This means they start with 5 paradoxes, one for each NK on the current timeline.
Deviation from the "active" timeline costs more paradoxes, and no-kills cost a paradox.
This needs more thought, but if scum can be forced to use all of thier paradoxes and avoid gaining more, we can get some additional days.

Any lack of NK we get would have to be sometime after day 3.

[PeregrineV]

Currently think Sixty, Minimal, are town based on play.
Think SaintK is town based on play, but I also fell like there are some backhanded compliments in there somewhere.

Why are we town, specifically? Play can mean a lot of things. Also, what do you mean by "backhanded compliments"?

1)You are thinking out loud how to best use the mechanics to our advantage. You are also advocating more discussion day1 when it looked like a quicklynch might happen.

2)173, 174

[PeregrineV]

he explains what the fuck hes doing

I lack the intellectual acumen to understand anything that is going on in this game and I'm totally underwater.

Also no one is bothering trying to help bring up an old lady to speed.

I get that the days are mixed up.

I get that the scum decided who is playing on the mixed up days.

That's is all that I understand.

I don't know paradoxes, I don't know portals, I don't know time travel. I don't know anything.

Feeling this stupid is immensely frustrating, and I'm not even joking that looking at this game actually, in reality, makes me choke up and nearly cry with the frustration of no understanding anything.

I asked for help, all I got is shit from you all. I bet some of you shitting on me are scum. Like why would scum want to help me?

-DGB

Read 45. I kind of break it down the way I see it.

[PeregrineV]

Just back, will get back to this later.

However, I do expect everyone else has commented on the first day and me and Desp. If not, please do so.

[PeregrineV]

Well, shit.

[PeregrineV]

Bad news is that my lynch will give scum the timeline again anyway, since I'm town.

[PeregrineV]

Bad news is that my lynch will give scum the timeline again anyway, since I'm town.

You do realize that this isn't possible, right?

You wouldn't think, considering day1/6 was touted as being lylo.

Considering that, I have to be lynched by necessity. I just want to point out the consequences.

[PeregrineV]

Little less than 2 days, people.

[PeregrineV]

My power was to give us (the scum team) an extra paradox if I predicted the lynch of the day.

My inclusion into lylo is given in the scum QT. While not super happy about it, I agreed with thier logic and my opponents put there.

My attempt to fully understand the mechanics was legit, except I knew the timeline and my partners. I did not know/get why we started in lylo, and didn't know what would happen once we finished it. I was not expecting an alive, flipped town-Dan we had just mislynched, although I tried to prepare for it just in case (72). I now think the sole purpose was to give us a paradox is we mislynched, but I'll leave that to AV to clarify.

Considering I got Dan mislynched and Desp lynched day1 and was thereby totally confirmed scum, I feel I did the best that I could this game, since my main goal day6 and day1 and day2 was to not give away my partners or their numbers.

When I entered the dead QT, I was warned that I might want to keep my cards close to my chest in the QT. I figured this meant some sort of reviver mechanic, but I didn't expect the whole dead playerlist to be put back into the game. Even there, I tried to keep the whole scum info as obscure as possible.

Thanks to my 4 fellow aliens, you guys did a great job even if we didn't win.

Thanks to AV for modding. How you always come up with good games with intricate mechanics, I don't know, but thank you, and keep it up!!

Will also take constructive criticism on how to do anything better.

[PeregrineV]

It occurs to me that the scum could have trolled the Town by actually adhering to a Town-created timeline, which would have foiled what followed from the PereV lynch. Then again, I'm pretty sure the canine timeline was probably not anything close to what the scum wanted to keep, so etc.

The other thing I asked AV about but was unable to communicate was that in the case of my lynch d2, if I self-hammered, my scumteam could make the timeline if they were the L-1 vote. Unfortunately they were early voters, and I had no way to pass that info on.

We also always knew the timeline no matter what, but it seems like we were always making a new one (or at least Platy & RK were).

[PeregrineV]

How would a No-kill on the final night set us up for the win, making it mylo instead of lylo?