Mini 1525: Tales of The Abyss Mafia GAME OVER!

[Deacon Blues]

hi guys

[Deacon Blues]

vote: fuzzylogic

semi-serious. it's not rvs anyway. his opening felt awkward and i dont like his caution about an rvs wagon.

Initial posts from his completed games:

well since I am new to this site and do not know peoples playing style my vote will be random for the time being. Round 1 usually a guess anyways unless the mafia or werewolf player does something obvious to draw atention to themselves. Saying that

Vote Gnomeo

^^ Town

@ Satan- whoever gets 5 votes within a day ( 14 days real time) get lynched.

vote Archie

just bc his stick figure gives me the creeps.

^^ Scum. Of note: Satan was his scumbuddy and Archie had put an rvs vote down on Satan.

I hate the RVS since it is usually meaningless ,,,, that is to say that there is not a lot of useful info is generated and scum slips are rare.

I have played Mafia off and on for years.... Im decent at it I guess but never really did much studying to get better than okay.

^^ Town

---

He comes off kind of awkward in RVS, and the last quote maybe explains why. Maaaaybe you have a point about the caution, but it looks to me like he's more willing to express caution as town than as scum, based on this somewhat sketchy survey of first-posts.

[Deacon Blues]

You get no cred for joke-rvs-votes anymore. None.

[Deacon Blues]

I'm not fond of RVS qua RVS either. However, I am interested in how and why RVS gives way to real gameplay.

In this player list, the goofing around part of RVS will probably be prolonged because some of the players have played a bajillion recent games together. The silly-votes part usually ends pretty quickly.

Come up with an RVS schtick you're comfortable with and go from there. You may eventually find that reactions to your schtick becomes part of how you develop reads.

[Deacon Blues]

VOTE: fuzzy

VOTE: FuzzyLogic

This test is bad and you should feel bad. A scum player would have broken a nail on their mouse button.

[Deacon Blues]

Because a scum player would have seen "role pm" in your post and broken the sound barrier clicking to page 1.

[Deacon Blues]

Though the test was pretty funny given the backstory to why this game came to be.

[Deacon Blues]

I guarantee, given how the last tales game was broken, that the scum team was given every detail of the vanilla role pm. One of that game's scum team is jointly modding this game.

[Deacon Blues]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32107

The vanilla town role pm and wincon were not in the OP to start with. And the scum team didn't get the info via PM or QT at start up either.

In post 19, Cabd used town role PM info to promote me to inno child.

Then the mod edited the role PM info into the OP, but left out the formatting. Info about what was italicized and whatnot started clearing other players around page 10 or 15. It was shortly after that when the plug was pulled on the game.

Pity. I was really looking forward to being a confirmed town treestump after I was Nk'd.

[Deacon Blues]

Total conjecture, though. He agreed his role was blue and the townie role isn't blue. That's that.

You will never convince me that "blue" even registered. And that's totally outside the role-pm shenanigans that happened in the game that led to this one. I've seen town blithely ignore rolecard colors way too often to put any stock in it as a test.

I am actually voting fuzzy less for the role PM thing than for being just really awkward in general

How are you fery

Good enough, though awkwardness doesn't look all that alignment indicative given his other games.

I'm doing wonderfully. You?

[Deacon Blues]

I like Kaze too. He's probably figuring out what I look for in his play, though. I should make town reads a little more of a stretch one of these games.

[Deacon Blues]

I'll do a more detailed meta dive later tonight. If he isn't "passive-aggressive" as town, I'll consider your argument.

[Deacon Blues]

No fair

I hate you all.

Kaze, Orci, town

Tammy-town?

VOTE: Fuzzy

FOS: Decon Blue

Hi, Ffery who's you're partner?

Your FoS is dumb.

bork is my partner. He told me he might post tomorrow but I'll probably yell at him if he does because new babby.

[Deacon Blues]

TheFuzzyLogic99 Meta

ISO of his first MS game, a Jungle Republic open game - Town

- He's played mafia elsewhere, this site was something of an adjustment
- He came under fire in that game, was at L-1 at one point on day 1
- His reactions to his accusers had some similarities in terms of how he pushed back, but he was pretty direct about his posts not being scummy
- he was callled out for being more experienced than he initially let on. He was indignant about it and insisted all he'd ever said was that it was his first game

at MS

- I wouldn't call his play passive aggressive in that game
- He was the N1K (the game was multiball - crosskill attempt?)

Spoiler: some example posts from this town game

Thanks Krazy for trying to paint me scummy by totally misquoting me. ( Yes ,I am being sarcastic here...just in case somebody somehow is missing the obvious) What I said was that it was hard to know who is scummy on day 1 unless a mafia or werewolf player did something really dumb. Maybe you are hoping noone would go back and read my original post. Either you are an overanxious townie or scum. Either way I am keeping my eyes on you.

Snippy reaction to being misquoted.

Spade , I do not understand your logic on how I am really scummy just because I posted two generic and newbie post at the beginning. If go by that logic the town would lynch newbies the first round every game. As that great philosopher Spock would say " You reasoning is quite illogical"

Not to mention the imaginary argument you insist me and me and Krazy were having, The fact is that I posted one thing about Krazy which was 100 % accurate. He did misquote me .He accused me of being scummy with bad if not scummy reasoning I called him on it .

fuzzy's posts (not there are a lot of them) irk me if he's not a noob. Because what do they add to the discussion?

To me. if all you can post is

"Well, some people are mafia, and some aren't, i hope we catch them, because if we don't that means we lose, cause we're town amiright?"

that's not a good town read. It's not enough for me to say anything definitively, but i'm leaning toward scum.

Actually it's funny to me. because the reasons I think krazy and fuzzy are the highest scum-dar trippers, is their reactions to posts about each other.

@Union. Twitching my radar sounds really bad if you say it with the wrong inflection.

You also say me and Krazy are scummy but unvote Krazy. Are you saying I am more scummier than Krazy. To be honest I am really really confused with your logic and actions. Maybe you can clear things up .

A defensive post, and contains some scumhunting as well.

I honestly did not find anything in my last two post all that defensive. Like I said I was a bit annoyed but mostly just confused by Spade posts.

Spade has only one card that he is trying to use against me over and over again. It would be okay if what he said had some type of validity to it. If you look at his argument however it has none .Npr does it follow any rational logic. In retrospect I should of just ignored Spade since none of his argument has any validity. The truth is the only reason I look scummy because I keep responding to Spade posts in a somewhat aggressive manner. By doing so I have validated his argument I am scummy even with his weak argument.

Trumpet I am not offended... i am a bit fluffy. However I ask you ,Please dont hold my lack of dietary control against me

More defense. Humor shines through here and there.

I feel like I am banging my fat head against a brick wall. Honestly all I want is a halfway reasonable answer to a pretty straight forward question. The only somewhat reasonable answer I got was from Krazy. I do appreciate his honest attempt to explain it to me

Super frustrated post, after repeated attempts to get people to explain why they thought he was scummy.

ISO of Newbie 1433 - Scum

Spoiler: some example posts from scum game

- Lots of hedgy phrasing in his reads posts:

Yes , it is.....

Its does not nessarilly means he is scummy but it might . Sometimes townies pulls the OMGUS card especially new townies.. Cant figure out yet if Satan is scum or just a nervous newbie. At this point it could go either way.

@ Reese_ still getting use to reaction test. Have never seen them use before . I played occansionally but but itwas just for pure fun. Im trying to figure out if I realy believe you are doing a reaction test or just BSing saying you were to make yourself look good

Honestly I dont know what to make 2Pac-he has made very little real contribution as far as scum hunting. His going around asking people to sheep him as if he has good scum hunting credibility. His reads are purely OMGUS responsess. Everything about him says stuborn newbie but I cant ignore that his action are starting to seem scummy. He starting to act like a desperate scum trying to get a wagon.

@ Archie_ definently bad stratergy but the question is if just a bad townie or scum. You do make some good points but I am not quite sold . I think you need to make your case a bit stronger before you get me to vote for him.

@Mr:Ree- You do see how much that your vote seem like retaliatory reaction for me accusing you right? Its almost a OMGUS vote . Its not as far I can understand the term from looking it up. Still You did not give any good reason for voting for me( except for me not liking your reaction test) . This is bad playing if not scummy behavior man. I hope you are scum because I hate to think someone of your skill can play so badly.

- Spelling and grammar seem worse when he's scum, but at the same time, it looks like he labors over posts a little more. They don't flow well, and sometimes it looks like he did a lot of copypaste or something.
- he downplays his experience a lot more - was just for fun, was a long time ago.
- Lynched day 3, not a bad run.

ISO of Newbie 1447 - Town

- Pretty assertive in this game
- Day 1 ended really early only 11 posts.
- He was the N1K.

Spoiler: some example posts from this town game

TIT... how is asking experience not relevant..... this is a newbie game so I think it nice to know if someone is brand new to the game or brand new to the site. I like to know such things myself so it can help me judge a person action. You seem all over the place...are you trying to get yourself lynched bc that is what it seems like. Also not putting pressure on someone so early in the game could be just a playing style and have no relevance to alignment

I have to agree your argument for Wake lynch is weak. You seem trying awful hard to lynch Wake so early in the game with not very good evidence. Either you are tunneling or you are scum trying way to hard to lynch Wake.

How is it out of place sense it was way at the beginning? I can see if he had posted it mid day how it is out of place but not how it is when it is early in day one. Even if it is odd that to me does not necessarily read scum. I do not think this is a good argument for Wake being scum.

Umm erratic behavior tends to get people lynch in my experience so I was wandering why you were acting the way you were.

Noted.... but just bc he says he does something and does not follow through does not mean necessarily mean he scum.

I disagree with you about scum hunting ... Not everyone scum-hunts so early in the game. In later play I can see this as a valid argument but the game just started late yesterday/ early today so its way too early in my opinion to make such claims

Um yelling Die Scum die at wake seems like tunneling behavior especially so early in the game. You seem pretty set on the idea and dont seem to accept the possibilities he might be town.

^^ This is arguing against a bandwagon. Much less hedgy looking

Voting , unvoting and voting again could be a way to hide your motivations.Something scums has to do. While it is not totally scummy I would say it could be suspicious behavior. Guess I should of used suspicious instead of scummy. Anyways I thought it was something that needed a better explanation . Is that a satisfactory explanation?

This is a sort of walkback from a stronger stance, which is a good thing to compare some of his posts in this game since he's also walked back.

@ wake -I almost tempted to lynch you wake bc your anti town behavior is hurting the town and I have no reason to believe that it will be destructive to the town later in the game ...plus you almost double dared me to lynch you. The problem is that Im not into policy lynching and Im pretty sure you are town ( I think TIT is prob town as well).


I doubt that scum would make such risky moves/actions. Still you said that you like to take risky gambits so I might have to think this over a bit more...

This is to the player he had been defending.

---

Back to this game:

@ Kaze

I admit I fell for whatever trap this was suppose to be.. I saw PM and was thinking inbox. However this does not mean I am scum it means I scanned your message quickly and than responded. Anyone could of done this. This seems like lazy scum hunting at best and a scum trying to get an easy lynch on a newer ( and percieved weaker player) at worst. So tell me which one of these is your attempt.

@ Ornicus

How is being awkward scummy. This is saying that townies cant awkward....This seems like a huge stretched.

This isn't as hedgy as the examples from the scum game above, but it is pretty defensive.

I dont know if Kaze is scummy....thats what I am trying to figure out. As far as his " attack" on me I dont find it nessarily scummy though I find it worth scrunity. I have been in
a couple game where scum have used my newness as way to get an easy lynch. This might not be the case but I think I should make sure.

In his two completed town games, he was not mislynched.

@ Orcinus

This is how I see it....if he is town than he set up a test that was weak in order to catch scum or at least try to look like he trying to catch scum. If he is scum he set up a trap to ensnare a townie. I can not see any other possibility. If there are I am willing to listen . I admit I might have a narrow perspective on this bc I am involved. Still I am not unwilling to listen for rational explanations.

second off I have played several games so I know all roles comes in in your inbox. This includes town roles , scum roles and third party roles. To say that that i am scum bc I answered his question without saying that town do not get their message in their inbox and not through PM is just ridiculous. Not to mention the thing about the blue townie. Than to push it as absolute fact that I scum bc of this is scummy. Maybe I dont have the experience of playing with Kaze to know if this is his norm but from my experience this seems very suspicious . I guess it is him pushing this idea more than the test to be scummy ....especially since the test results have been proven unreliable.

It does not seem he has much of a case so he pushing the idea that I am scum based on a test . it feels like he keep repeating the same thing over and over again hoping it will stick.



Also....

being awkward is not really a alignment sign as far as I can tell but I am willing to hear why you think so


@ The Mrs
Why do you think Kraze is town
Why do you think I am scum

Thank you

This also is not as hedgy looking as his scum game.

@ Kaze

I guess you could be just tunneling..... I seen it happens

As far as being defensive... I guess I was a bit. Mainly frustrated bc I was being accused of being scum with very weak argument and people were buying it. Yes being defensive is one sign of possible scumdown. However Town can be defensive as well

@ Orcanis
I can see where you coming from... Honestly I do not feel I have been awkward except for my first post. Can you show where I was being awkward.
There no absolute...until a player flips however if you push someone as being scum as hard as Kaze did means that you believe that he/ she is scum beyond a reasonable doubt. To push with weak unreliable evidence makes a person suspect. i don't care if he was pushing on me or another player.

Can you give me a good reason why I should believe Kaze is town?


@ Deacon and Pitoli

Curious about your reads so far

I kinda like this post.

---

I was expecting to do this meta dive and come away thinking Fuzzy is scum. It didn't work out that way. I don't think his replies in this game have the oily, hedgy, insinuative feel that his scum game had.

I've included a lot of detail because I doubt most players will go through the ISOs the way I have.

[Deacon Blues]

I suppose the test I administered is flawed in the way that it assumes the player is engaged enough to actually read the fucking thread.

I have a feeling I won't be swaying any votes based on that alone. But regardless of the test, fuzzy looks like scum to me. Complete defensive stance and trying to garner support for scumKaze in oblique OMGUS fashion. Feels bad, man.

I decided to give this as fair a hearing as I could, given how I feel about players who are basically lynchbait. I really can't see Fuzzy as scum based on what's in the thread so far.

[Deacon Blues]

Your FoS is dumb.

Dumb0town, or dumb-scum?

Hmm...

Fuzzy, reads?

My first reaction was to think "scum". But, I've been scum in several of our recent completed games together so maybe you've forgotten what town-me looks like. Or maybe town-me has changed.

I don't have enough data to read you yet.

[Deacon Blues]

Other than the Sangres games, we havn't had played town together, I don't think and in those games it was more reading nacho than reading you

We've played quite a few games. NY1964, Polygamy, Poetic Justice, Paradox Prime. At least a couple newbie games. The Morph the Cat games we played together were all scum. And so was the game where I hydra'd with Mala.

[Deacon Blues]

You're thinking about games where we were BOTH town.

NY 1964, Paradox Prime. Kinda sorta Poetic Justice - I was 3rd party but cooperating fully with town while alive.

I don't think you were ever really sure about me in NY 1964. Might have even been scumreading me on day 7 or whenever it was we lynched bulba. I'm not sure how much of that was your read of me vs your read of mollie, though.

[Deacon Blues]

I had you read as scum in Paradox and at the end on NY

Cabd had to beat the scum-read out of me

at this point, I should have a good handle on how you are, as town but I don't.

I remember C telling me that you liked playing scum with him, (or maybe it was playing with him in general) and I don't think your scum game is as bad as you make it out to be.

Has Cabd made you a lover of scum, or do you still prefer town over everything?

Totally prefer town. I feel more competent when scum now (though that's very dependent on the player list), but I don't enjoy playing scum roles.

[Deacon Blues]

I kinda like this post.

What is it that you like about 80, exactly? I personally really dislike it.

Because it's an attempt at reasonableness through a heavy cloud of frustration. And that sentiment was running through many of his posts in the first game I linked. It makes for a really clear comparison to his scum game where his posts came off much more guarded and calculated (as well as hedgy as all hell). I had just finished reading through those three threads and writing up my thoughts about them, and came back to this thread to look at his posts in a comparative light. And there was that post sitting at the bottom of the thread, and it was a perfect, beautiful distillation of my impressions of his first town game, where he was run up to L-1 on day 1.

I do some level of meta-diving in nearly every game I play, though I'm trying to cut back because life is too short. This dive was the one in a hundred - the reason why I meta dive at all - where I come away feeling like I can bet the farm on my conclusion, even if I tell myself that I should be cautious.

[Deacon Blues]

Also, you say you find him to be town because his posts don't feel as hedgy this game, yeah? That's probably because he's spending so much time opining about his own play he hasn't really shifted his attention elsewhere. The only person he's casting any suspicion on is me, and most of his opinions have been akin to "I don't know if he's scummy."

How does that not sound hedgy to you, anyway?

And then there's the matter of his lack of scumhunting in general. Opining about his own play and all that I mentioned before. I really don't see how your ISO(though I appreciate that you took the time) absolves him of his scumminess.

I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the difference between his posts in that second ISO and the posts in this game. Or you can't see the similarities between the first ISO and this game.

It's about tone. It's about textual body language. I picked examples that I thought epitomized the differences in the threads so that I'd have some really sharp contrasts. I didn't expect this game to be a perfect match with any one game because player lists and game states and the phase of the moon and whatever drugs are in our water supplies, and mind control rays from Mars all impact the events in each game in different ways.

With all that, it's really clear to me which of those games matches his posts in this game most closely.

You're getting hung up in the stuff that is a baseline of how he communicates and not looking at the nuances.

I don't know how to teach someone to sift out the baseline from the nuances. I don't always get it right myself. But, sometimes it's 1 in 100. And this meta dive is one of those times IMO.

[Deacon Blues]

I suppose I just plain disagree.

It seems blatantly obvious to me that all of fuzzy's posts have been made with the express purpose of defending himself and not estranging any potential allies in the process. I think he's scum. And I'm starting to think I'm looking at scumffery, as well. I've seen you spin meta to make it look how you want- you did it to my posts in Newbie 1436 when we were scum. It's very solid-looking on the surface, but it all falls apart when you realize how much of it is subjective opinion and how it doesn't make sense when the individual posts are taken in context of their respective situations. I'm getting that same feeling here.

Comparing his past Scum meta to this game and giving him a pass for not being hedgy or calculated when he hasn't even taken stances(or lack of stances) on anyone yet just feels off. You're making comparisons where they're not applicable.

Yes, I can spin meta. I do it by leaving out detail, glossing over important stuff, and above all making it hard to get to - I post links to games, give commentary by post numbers, and I definitely don't pull out a bunch of example quotes and lay it out in a way that anybody can see what I'm talking about.

I do post numbers and commentary as town sometimes, too, but it's because sometimes I'm feeling lazy or I just don't have the time to do it right.

I didn't have the time tonight, but I thought these ISOs paint a very clear picture and I don't think some of this player list will do the research themselves if all they get are links.

As far as my alignment, to the extent I'm capable of obvtowning, this game is already an example of what obvtown ffery looks like.

I don't always get thoroughly engrossed in some question or another in a game when I'm town. But, when I do, the conviction and the pure excitement of working through a puzzle is something I can't begin to emulate as scum.

And lets look at those posts where I talked about your meta when we were scum together.

Ffery, what do you think of Kaze? You said she made a good point about GM's carelessness probably being more likely to be coming from town. Other than that, I can't find you having commented about that slot in the last couple of days.

I recently did a meta dive on Kaze. His game has been evolving pretty quickly. His first game at MS was a scum game. All his games since then have been town. His tone has gotten lighter and less formal with every game. The stuff that has stayed the same about his town games is reasoned stances and observations. I should go back and look at some of those games, though. IIRC he's been mislynched 2-3 times. I didn't pay attention to why he was mislynched. Was more interested in looking for differences in tone and expressiveness by alignment.

houghts on Kaze this game? What is your read? I asked you what you think earlier, and you came up with this response...which doesn't help that much within the context of this game. I feel like I might have been easily fooled for a while yesterday when Kaze was interacting with me. TSO's observation actually reaffirms what was farther in the back of my mind yesterday.

I've done a meta dive to develop a sense of his tone as different alignments, but what I came away with was an impression of someone whose game is changing pretty rapidly. His one scum game was also his first game, and the tone was pretty formal compared to more recent games. So, adjusting for the direction his game changes have taken, the big difference to me between his scum game and his town games is that the first game's posts felt organized with tight, well defined stances. In other games, his stances and reactions to game events have been more disorganized and hence fluid.

This is a scum/town difference I see in quite a few players who don't have really deep experience at mafia, and I think it's where the "informed" part of informed minority shows up in newer players.

Applying these thoughts to this game - His stances so far have been pretty fluid which feels town. There has been some hedginess or maybe waffling, though, which pings a little. I don't worry too much about waffling (changing stance), but hedging (e.g., fencesitting) tends to get my attention.

I want to factor in my impression of his predecessor. Gravija had a really strong newb vibe, and was reacting to stuff that irritated him without paying much attention to whether what irritated him was scummy. In newbie games I try to sort new players quickly and then mostly stop worrying about them if I think they are town. That's kinda where I was at with Gravija. I don't think he would have been as open in his responses to "yeah but is that scummy?" questions if he were scum. But, aside from the irritable reactions, he seemed kinda passive. IIRC he was the most townward of my null reads when I posted a reads list. At the time, I was thinking hard about moving both him and Sakura to my town pile.

The waffly/hedgy stuff bugs me enough that I want to call Kaze leaning town, not strong town.

My "meta report" was loosely based on what I had pulled together for the game where we were both town. I reused it, but added lots of irrelevancies about game theory and scum in general. I reported stuff from your other games without links. And I glossed over and mischaracterized your posts in that game. I certainly didn't pull up any examples of your posts because I had to keep it non-specific. Otherwise I would have been drawing huge arrows to what was wrong with your posts in that game.

In other words, pretty much the opposite of what I am doing here.

You may disagree with what I think about his posts. You may think I am dead wrong. But you are not being misled about what I think and why I think it. I've laid it out as clearly as I know how.

[Deacon Blues]

Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.

How is the role PM verified by the OP? I don't see any example role PMs, do you?

No, there are no example role PMs in the OP. I actually thought I had seen one in this game, but I was thinking about a different game.

However, given how Syryana's scum team was boned by a concatenation of mod errors related to the town win condition and role pm format in the earlier Tales game I am certain that this game's scum team has everything they need to know in order to pass any role PM test town players can devise.

[Deacon Blues]

fery if you're manipulating me here i'll kill you

i think you are town though

I haven't even been talking to you!

And even when I was scum in xenoblade (and you were too, you scumfuck) I didn't try to manipulate you.

I dont know but everything I am reading from Kaze makes me think that he is more likely than not a townie that is stuck in a tunnel. His reads sounds like someone who has convinced himself I am scum and is unable to see any other possibilities no matter how much the evidence points the other way. This is what i am getting from his recent posts I guess he could be scum but I am leaning town .

fery did you get any traces of activity patterns between town/scum

You mean timing of posts? No, I didn't look for that other than to check if there were huge gaps in the game where he only had 11 posts.

Even when I try to pay attention to timestamps, it doesn't really sink in for me.

[Deacon Blues]

I haven't even been talking to you!

And even when I was scum in xenoblade (and you were too, you scumfuck) I didn't try to manipulate you.

If you are scum pls don't be

I could tell you that I'm not, but that's not how it works. I mash keys and make town sentences and you figure out if they are real. And vice versa, except I already have.

In NY165 it took me weeks to feel really sure that you were town.

[Deacon Blues]

I do post numbers and commentary as town sometimes, too, but it's because sometimes I'm feeling lazy or I just don't have the time to do it right.

I didn't have the time tonight, but I thought these ISOs paint a very clear picture and I don't think some of this player list will do the research themselves if all they get are links.

As far as my alignment, to the extent I'm capable of obvtowning, this game is already an example of what obvtown ffery looks like.

I don't always get thoroughly engrossed in some question or another in a game when I'm town. But, when I do, the conviction and the pure excitement of working through a puzzle is something I can't begin to emulate as scum.

I found myself nodding along to this post in agreement, maybe because we just wrapped up that one game. Still, I would say that's a pretty big meta gap and am surprised you don't think you've bridged it at all.

I'm a harsh self-critic. Where I know something is missing, I keep working at it. It's probably the stuff that I'm completely unaware of that others find key, though.

[Deacon Blues]

Yeah but that was because I was playing like a stoned hobo in 165.

It's ok though i'm on top of things and it's good to be back

How do you feel about Prohawk?

I liked his Fuzzy read. He can probably emulate it as scum, but I associate that kind of "stick up for lynchbait" behavior with his town game. I don't feel good about his Kaze read but I'm not surprised that's his read. Based on the Fuzzy read I am leaning a little town.

And I think pitoli seems much better than what I remember of her from BSG but that was a while ago

I've played a few games with her since BSG. They were town games. In one case, I misread her and thought she was scum. I doubt her current scum game looks much like BSG. Still...kinda leaning town.

What do you think of Mara?

[Deacon Blues]

unvote

for now.

one thing that's annoying me is that you didn't let fuzzy react to my vote before jumping straight into his meta, ffery. i would've expected you to do your research and wait, but you pretty much gave fuzzy a get out of jail free card which he took advantage of. how come?

First off, sorry. If someone had wandered through my line of questioning I would have been pretty snarky about it.

I didn't wait was mostly for two reasons:

- In a few recent games I haven't jumped right onto an issue about a lynchbait-looking player and the situation got out of hand and the player was quicklynched. I have crossed into a mindset of prevention when I think I see that happening.

- This reason should have caused me to wait because it's in opposition to that one. I thought that your sudden push out of RVS on page 1 was out of character. Usually players who push for a quick end to RVS are town, but the combo of ending RVS and doing so by jumping on a weak-looking player was a high-alert moment.

The way you reacted to my quick meta of his opening posts bothered me even more. If you had argued it, or told me to get out of your line of inquiry I would have felt a lot more comfortable than I did with your "thanks I'll have a look later".

Delayed ire is pretty good, though.

Total conjecture, though. He agreed his role was blue and the townie role isn't blue. That's that.

stretching like mad here. he agreed he was town, not that his role PM was blue.

I've seen town blithely ignore rolecard colors way too often to put any stock in it as a test.

hyrule newbie actually sprung to mind here... like it always does

hyrule was exactly the game I had in mind. I was actually half expecting that he came from a site like VL's home site, where the PR role cards had a different color than the VT roles.

and Mac is weird

hey

You were, though. And Mara pointing it out like that was one of the things I like about her posts.

No fair

I hate you all.

Kaze, Orci, town

Tammy-town?

VOTE: Fuzzy

FOS: Decon Blue

Hi, Ffery who's you're partner?

Your FoS is dumb.

bork is my partner.

He told me he might post tomorrow but I'll probably yell at him if he does because new babby.

does this mean what I think it means?

Yes!

Speaking of town-you, it evolved quite a bit.Your town-ego has went up, and your general snarkiness has went up!

That's more like a devolution. :/

[Deacon Blues]

i didn't think i was.

It's a vantage-point thing usually. You know your thought process.

[Deacon Blues]

Bork catchup post time! (this is my first post of the game in case that wasn't clear to anyone up till now)

VOTE: Kazikiri

Anxious Scum.

Anxious for what, exactly?

semi-serious. it's not rvs anyway. his opening felt awkward and i dont like his caution about an rvs wagon.

I agree with where your post is coming from

but I disagree with your conclusion - I think that's a pretty reasonable question to ask and I am going to very slightly left-of-center townread for his playing along with the word "appropriate" as if he were averse to misrepresenting the person he is asking.

(32) Right, Fuzzylogic? You got yourself a nice blue townie PM, right?

(33) and yes I am very much town. It is a nice break to be a townie again.

So I get the gaffe here, but the obvious conclusion from it is that Fuzzy disregarded or glossed over the part about the color, otherwise you have to make the conclusion that scum don't have any fakeclaims with green colored alignments on them. I don't accept that premise and I don't think you should either.

(34) VOTE: fuzzy

(38) @ Orcinus- well that explains it all or not....I dont know if I should take your vote serious or not....

(39) ok. vote turned serious.

(40) @ Ornicus-
If it is serious than i think I deserve a reason why you are voting against me since the vote seem random and totally out of the blue.

(50) I am actually voting fuzzy less for the role PM thing than for being just really awkward in general

Why did you vote fuzzy in 34? 34 doesn't look 'not serious' because it's obviously to me a direct response to the supposedly failed reaction test in 33, ergo the claim in 39 that the vote turned serious right at 38 doesn't jive with me at all. Furthermore, your mentioning in 50 that it's just cause he's awkward in general is something I consider a crap tell.

Kaze's angle on fuzzy is much better even if I think it's flawed for reasons I gave above.

This seems like lazy scum hunting at best and a scum trying to get an easy lynch on a newer ( and percieved weaker player) at worst.

Now that I've trapped you you're trying to force a false dichotomy that I'm either lazy or scum? My goodness.

This is straight up a null comment - this is obviously what he would think if he were town - please realize that your comment is confirmation bias.

Gonna split my post here.

[Deacon Blues]

No fair

I hate you all.

Kaze, Orci, town

Tammy-town?

VOTE: Fuzzy

FOS: Decon Blue

Hi, Ffery who's you're partner?

Go on... (especially about my slot)

I already said this guy was scum... Kaze, for the record, you are completely off.

You are being inordinately tight-lipped and cryptic. Explain this post.

TIP wears his alignment on his sleeve

Mac even more so

You're gonna

love

me, then.

Mac leans scum

I see various scumreads (or weirdreads) on Mac right now - I am not getting any such impression - someone please explain.

I am not surprised to see hedginess from a newbie. The part I don't like, however, is that Fuzzylogic seems to be repeating "you are observing X about me, and saying X is scummy. however, town can also do X" and yeah zzzzzzz

I call that null (and I guess this is an opinion that I hold that gets a lot of bad rep depending on the game I'm in) but both alignments really do have cause to explain why what they're doing isn't scummy as to try to subvert their own lynch (which is, you know, always bad for their team regardless of which team that is). Why does this betray scum motivation to you?

Mac 114 = . Aligns with my thoughts on the whole thing.

People who are town: Pitoli, Mac, Fery

Agree on Mac, undecided on Pitoli.

Splitting again.

[Deacon Blues]

So far, everyone who I have fair enough experience with and posted met my expectation, except Mara. But then, it's been forever since my completed game with Mara.

Waiting to see what you do with this info, but I subconsciously do like the way this is phrased.

awesome, congrats bork!

Thanks! He's doing great.

[Deacon Blues]

Your reads are lining up pretty well with bork's reads.

[Deacon Blues]

can someone please unvote?

[Deacon Blues]

someone actually on the wagon?

[Deacon Blues]

All right, I can wait until tomorrow.

I don't understand what this means.

[Deacon Blues]

Hey Nacho, what is this about?

[Deacon Blues]

unvote

Reflecting on this - was there any intent behind this or you just screwing around?

[Deacon Blues]

nah there was no intent. i knew you'd know i wasnt on the wagon.

kk

will all that done, that wagon built at an incredibly quick speed. makes me lean prohawk town on that alone but his posts have left me unconvinced.

I think ffery and I both reflect this opinion right now.

[Deacon Blues]

understandable about your quicklynch concerns. it's not the greatest reasoning for jumping straight in

because i feel like most of this playerlist is not like that

but you never can tell

.

Had to find this and post it because I love it when I'm justly pessimistic about a player list.

Oh wait. I'm not.

[Deacon Blues]

Tammy who do you have as scum?

[Deacon Blues]

Tammy who do you have as scum?

Haven't read the game.

So what was your reason for joining the prohawk wagon? Because Nacho said?

[Deacon Blues]

When do you expect to have the thread read?

[Deacon Blues]

Prohawk,

Why so terse?

[Deacon Blues]

Scumometer (tm)

[Deacon Blues]

If ffery declares prohawk town based on wagon speed and doesn't attempt to analyze the bullshit reaction, I will be extremely unhappy.

I would hate to make you extremely unhappy.

[Deacon Blues]

Gut is king. Why did you ruin the wagon? Were you afraid of someone quickhammering?

Yeah. I've had a fuckload of experience with people quickhammering lately and it's pretty much unilaterally not worked out well for me.

If ffery declares prohawk town based on wagon speed and doesn't attempt to analyze the bullshit reaction, I will be extremely unhappy.

(I'm trying not to be butthurt that you think it's ok if I were to do it)

But really, that's not the sentiment I'm attempting to parrot from Mac and I doubt it's what he'd agree he said - the speed of the wagon (up to L-1 at that) seems like something that would likely be done to town. That's the only point I was trying to emphasize. Neither of us have made any claim that we're going to ignore what ProHawk does in response. We on the same page?

In that vein, both ffery and I are concerned with Prohawk's clamming up/overall superficiality. That's about all I can say about the slot right now.

[Deacon Blues]

you better be butthurt

I am secretly hoping that you will someday see me as a player who at least once in a blue moon does competent things besides RAWRI'MTOWNTOWNTOWNTOWN

[Deacon Blues]

But how will I know who scum are if you're not around to hold my hand?

Also, I know you claimed omgus on ot, but what do you think of my reasoning for rufflig scum?

Pedit: nacho

i dunno rufflig scum seems pretty likely but i always think rufflig scum

Yeah I keep reminding myself of the Dr Who game. Though I did start with a town-flash impression in that game.

[Deacon Blues]

aaaand possibly orcinus

Talk to me about this.

[Deacon Blues]

Also, p sure Kaze is town.

[Deacon Blues]

Is orc town?

flashes of paranoia about how easily he townread me. And the flashes of paranoia feel a little off. I feel like real paranoia would look more like that at-arms-length feel I had about him in the NY 165 game. He wasn't pushing me often, but he definitely wasn't buying my early reads wholesale.

[Deacon Blues]

aaaand possibly orcinus

Talk to me about this.

his play feels off this game. he doesn't feel town. gut perhaps.

meanwhile, you can talk to me about kaze?

Scum Kaze:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

He was scum with me, replaced in partway through day 1. This game was the basis for his accusation that I could be manipulating my meta results, because I handwaved the hell out of his meta to call him null-town.


His first scum game (also his first MS game)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I can go through a detailed analysis if I really need to, but I think the differences are pretty obvious

[Deacon Blues]

aaaand possibly orcinus

Talk to me about this.

his play feels off this game. he doesn't feel town. gut perhaps.

meanwhile, you can talk to me about kaze?

Scum Kaze:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

He was scum with me, replaced in partway through day 1. This game was the basis for his accusation that I could be manipulating my meta results, because I handwaved the hell out of his meta to call him null-town.


His first scum game (also his first MS game)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I can go through a detailed analysis if I really need to, but I think the differences are pretty obvious

so he's more serious as scum? i really briefly skimmed that iso but that was the main thing i gathered.

More serious, softer stances, and more non-scumhunting content. Note particularly all the complaining about meta and discussion prior games in the first link. I did a read of all his completed games for the first game I played with him because he was getting FoSed and somewhat run-up. I had a town read, but wasn't listened to as much as I liked, so I threw some meta reasons to go with the in-thread stuff I thought made him town.

Anyway, his playstyle has evolved since that first game, and it appears to be taking another turn. But, the fundamentals are still there wrt to his town game.

damn it.

[Deacon Blues]

Happy Scumday Orci!

[Deacon Blues]

I can go through a detailed analysis if I really need to, but I think the differences are pretty obvious

I'm not going to read through those games - at least not on day 1. Your earlier quotes of players from other games do not illuminate me in any way. I am fairly bad at meta reading people based off of games that I've read, but not participated in. If you could just give a sentence or two about which way you are meta reading these players, that would be much appreciated. These seemingly random quotes and links tell me nothing about how you are feeling about these players.

Please stop posting terrible shit.

Unless you're scum. If you're scum by all means keep it up.

[Deacon Blues]

fery

[Deacon Blues]

What is wrong with asking you to actually make an opinion on someone?

Here is the convo between Mac and me, of which that one post is a part. Let me bold the key parts.

Also, p sure Kaze is town

.

aaaand possibly orcinus

Talk to me about this.

his play feels off this game. he doesn't feel town. gut perhaps.

meanwhile, you can talk to me about kaze?

Talk to me about this.

his play feels off this game. he doesn't feel town. gut perhaps.

meanwhile, you can talk to me about kaze?

Scum Kaze:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

He was scum with me, replaced in partway through day 1. This game was the basis for his accusation that I could be manipulating my meta results, because I handwaved the hell out of his meta to call him null-town.


His first scum game (also his first MS game)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I can go through a detailed analysis if I really need to, but I think the differences are pretty obvious

so he's more serious as scum?

i really briefly skimmed that iso but that was the main thing i gathered.

More serious, softer stances, and more non-scumhunting content. Note particularly all the complaining about meta and discussion prior games in the first link.

I did a read of all his completed games for the first game I played with him because he was getting FoSed and somewhat run-up. I had a town read, but wasn't listened to as much as I liked, so I threw some meta reasons to go with the in-thread stuff I thought made him town.

Anyway, his playstyle has evolved since that first game, and it appears to be taking another turn. But, the fundamentals are still there wrt to his town game.

[Deacon Blues]

fery

when should we talk about mara?

How about now. You're not liking her.

[Deacon Blues]

I'm not liking Mara, yeah.

I feel like she'd be more...oh I don't know. Chatty, involved, etc

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's sitewide, though.

Speaking of which,

@Mara you have another town game with me now. You guys misread the shit out of me. :/

Do better?

[Deacon Blues]

I don't see it.

What towntells are they throwing off for you?

How many games have you played with either of them?

[Deacon Blues]

ProHawk,

You going to be around tonight?

[Deacon Blues]

loled.

[Deacon Blues]

I like this post from you, I think

though I am kinda lost as to where the expectation of me reading you correctly is coming from. I havn't exactly made it a secret that I'm not all that great from pulling things off experience if they aren't coming from games where I was town.

And you have another just completed hydra game with town-me. GiF's micro. You guys misread me. Try to do better this time.

[Deacon Blues]

So you think ProHawk's 4 post or w/e seem town?

[Deacon Blues]

No

but, I don't think they are coming from scum, either

I also don't think that the lack of reaction is alignment indicative because he would have a reason to freak out over the wagon as both alignments

Have you played with town Prohawk?

And was it a reaction or a lack of reaction? You seem to be saying both.

[Deacon Blues]

Yeah but how would you characterize ProHawk's posts. Was it a reaction or a lack of reaction?

When bork and I talked about prohawk one of the games of ProHawk's reviewed was Xenologue.

If you haven't ISO'd him in that game and read his first few posts, I recommend it.

Can point you to a couple other games, too.

[Deacon Blues]

It was a pointless push.

I had already stated that I was going to reconsider Prohawk today.

All right, I can wait until tomorrow.

How did you interpret my request that (someone) unvote prohawk? Furthermore, what is your current read on him?

[Deacon Blues]

I think both Nacho votes are coming from town

What specifically gave you a townread on prohawk?

[Deacon Blues]

You want to kill me for not being super-active? Do it, but make sure you kill the scum taking the cop-out-excuse to lynch someone for it.

VOTE: Nacho

this implies to me you're not scumreading nacho, yet the vote says different.

Nope. Scum-Nacho.

I have stuff I want to discuss with you, but it needs to wait on some things.

[Deacon Blues]

I am voting with you in spirit, tammy.

That's discouraging. I was town reading you.

Specifically what was discouraging?

[Deacon Blues]

^ When I played with Scum-Kaze he was very conscientious of addressing stuff like that and in general played a pretty clean game, always providing a rationale for voting with cases and such. Then again that was his first game on site, so I don't really know if I'd expect that now.

this is the problem i'm having with ffery's meta-dive. i do actually have a slight town-lean on kaze now for his nonchalance about the thread so far, but i feel his scum game probably isn't going to be similar to his original scum games.

Newbie 1436 is quite recent history, though. That was my first link. His older scum game was the 2nd link.

Also:

aaaand possibly orcinus

Talk to me about this.

his play feels off this game. he doesn't feel town. gut perhaps.

meanwhile, you can talk to me about kaze?

Scum Kaze:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

He was scum with me, replaced in partway through day 1. This game was the basis for his accusation that I could be manipulating my meta results, because I handwaved the hell out of his meta to call him null-town.


His first scum game (also his first MS game)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I can go through a detailed analysis if I really need to, but I think the differences are pretty obvious

so he's more serious as scum? i really briefly skimmed that iso but that was the main thing i gathered.

More serious, softer stances, and more non-scumhunting content. Note particularly all the complaining about meta and discussion prior games in the first link. I did a read of all his completed games for the first game I played with him because he was getting FoSed and somewhat run-up. I had a town read, but wasn't listened to as much as I liked, so I threw some meta reasons to go with the in-thread stuff I thought made him town.

Anyway, his playstyle has evolved since that first game,

and it appears to be taking another turn. But, the fundamentals are still there wrt to his town game

.

I don't think you're misrepresenting what I've said about Kaze. But, I'm not sure you really followed what I was trying to communicate.

I actually kinda hope that Kaze can fool me as scum in a game, at least for a while. It would be an indication that I've been right about what is changing about his play style, and that it's intentional. And also an indication that playing mafia at MS is going to continue to grow more challenging.

[Deacon Blues]

It's evolved past that by now.

Ok now you're worrying me.

[Deacon Blues]

Why?

Because you appear to be reaching a different opinion about ProHawk's posts than I am.

And I feel like you've missed some stuff in the sideline interactions.

[Deacon Blues]

I think you're pulling the plug too early.

Maybe.

My approach to reading and working with ProHawk's been seriously influenced by your observations in the cash cabd game neighborhood. I feel like you're not walking your talk.

[Deacon Blues]

I think you're pulling the plug too early.

Prohawk had some nice conviction in his push on me, but there are still a few weird bits, namely the whole discrediting him by complimenting him thing. Am I missing something with this? What would you sum up his case on me as?

I felt like your reaction to that looked a little disingenuous.

[Deacon Blues]

Why did you choose Tammy to push on in your opening post?

[Deacon Blues]

By pushing on him?

By failing at something you usually do so well - seeing how the reaction to your push could come from a town mindset.

How am I poisoning a well by attacking you?

bork and I both thought this was bad, because your attack had a huge BoP component.

[Deacon Blues]

You are an extraordinarily slow typist, ffery. I feel like I'm playing chat mafia with you.

Are you implying that this time it's alignment indicative, or just messing with me?

[Deacon Blues]

SAKURA

Question for you in post 399.

[Deacon Blues]

Tammy-town?

Why? You didn't get the joke and there was nothing else in that singular post of hers.

This post doesn't really feel like your usual inquisitiveness.

[Deacon Blues]

Now who's the slow typist.

[Deacon Blues]

I don't use capslock often enough.

[Deacon Blues]

I see how it comes from a town mindset, but I also see how it could come from a scum mindset

. I'm sure you can see both sides easily, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind firming up your read on ProHawk a little more. If you have a solid townread on him at the moment, then you're underestimating him quite a bit.

ffery is at town-prohawk right now. I'm getting there but I'm rereading the evolution of the argument between the two of you, and at the moment because I don't feel comfortable sheeping either of you onto the other without falling prey to whomever is making the better argument at the time.

re: the underlined: seems to be that you're arguing that it necessarily (or at least really likely) is coming from a scum mindset; how would town prohawk respond differently to pressure, then?

[Deacon Blues]

By failing at something you usually do so well - seeing how the reaction to your push could come from a town mindset.

I see how it comes from a town mindset, but I also see how it could come from a scum mindset. I'm sure you can see both sides easily, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind firming up your read on ProHawk a little more. If you have a solid townread on him at the moment, then you're underestimating him quite a bit.

Maybe. If I am I think I'll figure it out.

bork and I both thought this was bad, because your attack had a huge BoP component.

I still don't understand how I was poisoning the well.

This is the post:

THIS is your reaction to the flashwagon on you? No diatribes on why everyone sheeping me is a bad idea and shows incredible scum motivation, no rage and anger on how you can't believe that the town is this lazy and horrible? And hell, even lacking that, no analysis and instead easy obvious scumreads? Come on, hawkie. You're a much better player than this.

This was like a one paragraph distillation of 2 pages or so worth of walling that you and I did in GiF's micro while you tried to sort me.

If you had hit me with a distillation like that you would have gotten back something very close to what ProHawk posted, laced with my own particular brand of snark.

We're different people, but I don't care who you're trying to sort, a paragraph as laden with that much "you suck so bad this time you have to be scum" is not going to go anywhere good. It can take me the better part of a gameday or more to recover from the kind of reaction that elicits and start acting like my alignment again.

Tammy-town?

Why? You didn't get the joke and there was nothing else in that singular post of hers.

This post doesn't really feel like your usual inquisitiveness.

I have no idea how to respond to this. I briefly considered squiggles, but then decided that wouldn't get us anywhere.

[/quote]

It's kinda of a piece with what I'm already yelling at you about. You could have left the comment at "Why?" rather than shutting off directions the answer could go and narrowing the focus like that.

It feels like tryhard scumhunting. :/

[Deacon Blues]

:/

sup

[Deacon Blues]

@mara: Just about the gamestate in general? Let's just narrow the scope a bit:

Who are your biggest reads in either direction and why?

[Deacon Blues]

A wagon forming in the way that it did means that there's no real way to distinguish between town or scum jumping on the wagon; Prohawk would be likely to express that as well.

I do agree with this.

[Deacon Blues]

A wagon forming in the way that it did means that there's no real way to distinguish between town or scum jumping on the wagon; Prohawk would be likely to express that as well.

I do agree with this.

Well, to be clear: I agree with it in the sense that all other things being equal, there is no way that, in the microcosm of that wagon and nothing around it, to cherry pick the scum.

But I don't really think that's what he was doing.

[Deacon Blues]

IDK WTF you and Nacho are talking about, But I think Hawkie is town and prolly going down the wrong avenue

Then I'm not really sure what to do with you other than put my read of you on ice until you can get more engaged

[Deacon Blues]

ffery!

What?

[Deacon Blues]

Have I missed a question?

[Deacon Blues]

Done as in not sure where to take it next.

Not done as in conclusions reached.

You were talking to bork about ProHawk hunting scum on his wagon. Bork and I agree that we disagree with you about what ProHawk was doing, and aren't really satisfied with your response, but it's your response.

[Deacon Blues]

My tunneling isn't usually so much intense as long lived. Dunno about bork's tunneling.

[Deacon Blues]

yeah well, I'll remember having to settle for your scumbuddy that day 1. Though objectively that was better because we'd have cleared him via investigation on night 1 if he hadn't nk'd us.

[Deacon Blues]

I *probably* have more things to say than just about ProHawk.

We're spending a lot of time reading orcinus games. :/

Also consuming neurons wrt mara.

And wondering when the fuck SSK is going to post again.

[Deacon Blues]

I *probably* have more things to say than just about ProHawk.

We're spending a lot of time reading orcinus games. :/

Also consuming neurons wrt mara.

And wondering when the fuck SSK is going to post again.

Save yourselves the trouble since Orc is town :3

I appreciate your sharing this and all, but I'm going to develop my own read on Orcinus. We have a lot of past meta, including a few games as our Selkies hydra.

There are a few things going on in this game that match his scum meta a little better than his town meta.

[Deacon Blues]

I *probably* have more things to say than just about ProHawk.

We're spending a lot of time reading orcinus games. :/

Also consuming neurons wrt mara.

And wondering when the fuck SSK is going to post again.

Orc's response to me calling him town was pretty impressive if he's scum.

It was.

I need to check xenoblade for some things, actually. I've been focusing on other games.

[Deacon Blues]

Back for a bit;

Yeah, it was me and not ffery you were talking to in 440, 447, 449 (although not 441)

As for tunneling, I am making every attempt I can

not

to tunnel, especially on Day 1, and I'm trying to engage outliers on this issue (Mara, Fuzzy) so that they don't become alienated.

To you two: what about this gamestate makes you 1) not want to delve into it or 2) not understand it? What would you rather talk about?

My conclusion is that it is plain for me to see that Prohawk is not attempting to exclusively use the order or manner in which they jumped on his wagon as the sole reason he's calling out particular scum players, and I'm scratching my head as to why you are purporting that his thought process is limited to that single cross section of the game (which is a tenet of your argument against him), since he never made that claim.

Talking reads is generally a good jumping off point.

Sure. My personal reads (bold is a stronger read within a tier, italic is a weaker read within a tier, null tier is Left to Right from town to scum):

Town: {

Tammy

,

Fuzzy

, Mac,

Kaze

,

ProHawk

}
Null (L-R = T-S): {Pitoli, Rufflig, GifSakura, SSK, Mara}
Scum: {

Orci

,

Nacho

}

Nacho is my current conclusion based on the prohawk push but I'm annealing my take on it still.
Orci is a combination of what I brought up in an earlier post about his fuzzy push and a little bit of meta.

Wouldn't take either of these to the bank.

Kaze please talk to me about Orci - you've been hard defending him all game for reasons that aren't clear to me and I want to know what you're seeing.

[Deacon Blues]

Orc's response to me calling him town was pretty impressive if he's scum.

link me what you're talking about here, ffery went away for a bit

[Deacon Blues]

I'm at work (well after hours till rehearsal) - my father in law is in town this whole week; my fmla starts next week.

"Why is nachoscum" => Answered in the post
"why am I so low on that null-list" => Your posts have been almost entirely either 1) unrelated to the gamestate [because they are either meta generalities or fluff] or 2) unexplained reads, which I would like you to explain
"why is Ruffling and Pitoli so high?" => Pitoli is probably gut but I think she mostly ended up there because I moved others around. I don't actually have that much on her. Rufflig I actually like what he's doing from the standpoint of applying pressure to people, once I figured out that's what he was doing.

Still, these are all in a single tier and are not terribly far apart.

[Deacon Blues]

why?

Kaze please talk to me about Orci - you've been hard defending him all game for reasons that aren't clear to me and I want to know what you're seeing.

Because I'm

Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear

,

Town-Aligned Stalker

. I have quite the thing for Orc's role, apparently, and as such I've stalked him and know his rolename(which I shan't reveal) and alignment. Orc doesn't know this, though, as far as my role indicates.

Oh, and if Orc gets lynched I get mod-confirmed for some reason.

Kay?

Bork would like me to say why the fuck did you do that.

That was not exactly a shitton of pressure on you. And town-orcinus is capable of making himself readable to me with time.

Also there are about 2 names orcinus can claim that back that shit up and if he claims something else bork will call bullshit so fast your head will spin.

[Deacon Blues]

Bork phonepost:

Revrtsing my stance. I am glad you claimed. All this does is give us info if youre legit.

[Deacon Blues]

Orc goes to bold font town
Kaze to reg font town
Kaze town orc scum combo is now impossible

[Deacon Blues]

Town: {

Orci

,

Tammy

,

Fuzzy

, Mac, Kaze,

ProHawk

}
Null (L-R = T-S): {Pitoli, Rufflig, GifSakura, SSK, Mara}
Scum: {

Nacho

}

Nacho is my current conclusion based on the prohawk push but I'm annealing my take on it still. Wouldn't take to bank.

Orcinus/Kaze due to Kaze claim and Orci nod.


#UPDATE

sigh

[Deacon Blues]

Now lurksacks need to post.

I need to sort that middle group. And I need to find reason to keep or change the Nacho read. Despite me doing most of the "tunneling" I think it's a stronger read for bork.

[Deacon Blues]

@SSK

I'm not Nati, but I need you to come in here and do shit that I'll recognize as town. Thanks.

@Pitoli you need to explain to me why finally playing a scum game with me (with nacho) leads to you not having expressed much expressed concern about either of us.

@GiFSakura how about some reads

@Rufflig same

@Mara you have questions about our reads how about telling us something more than "TvT" re nacho and ProHawk

kthx

[Deacon Blues]

@GiFSakura how about some reads

Oh. Come to see my scumometer, I misplaced MafiaSSK.

Kazekirimaru<Deacon Blues<orcinus_theoriginal<TheFuzzylogic99<Nachomamma8<Tammy<pitoli<Mac<MafiaSSK<ProHawk<Ms Marangal<The Rufflig

Reasons.

[Deacon Blues]

This game is giving me a headache...Cant make really head or tails between who is scum and whose a nice blue townie. Curse you scum for making it so hard.

fery this kind of statement I find normally tends hard to town or scum meta

Did fuzzy ever say anything like this in your dive?

I don't remember anything like that in any of the games. I'll do a quick re-scan tonight.

[Deacon Blues]

@GiFSakura how about some reads

Oh. Come to see my scumometer, I misplaced MafiaSSK.

Kazekirimaru<Deacon Blues<orcinus_theoriginal<TheFuzzylogic99<Nachomamma8<Tammy<pitoli<Mac<MafiaSSK<ProHawk<Ms Marangal<The Rufflig

Shit is happening everywhere and thats the only thing you've got? Stale shit from forever ago?

[Deacon Blues]

Noted.

[Deacon Blues]

I recognize that a lot of people have a town hardon for Nacho, even though I think I see some cog-dis with how he's personally treating prohawk's play ("your play is shit this game") vs how he's treating our read of prohawk ("if you have a townread on him then you're underestimating him"). Can't have it both ways. If those people townreading Nacho could at least attempt to give their own take on him, I'd appreciate it, otherwise I probably just have to let him be today.

I want pitoli off the table for the moment - she's not active on-site right now; give her a bit to get into this.

I want

SSK to be prodded

because he IS active on site but otherwise has no footprint in this game and isn't a compelling lynch either because of that.

Leaves {Gifkura, Rufflig, Mara}, for the moment, pending responses from others.

VOTE: GifSakura

that 'Ima quote my half-game old reads' post does not seem town motivated.

[Deacon Blues]

that 'Ima quote my half-game old reads' post does not seem town motivated.

Those were GiF's reads though, I was expecting him to come and explain them for me but that post just now makes me think it's not likely.

I'm willing to wait for GiF's explanations for his reads.

Can you provide YOUR reads and why you think that way?

[Deacon Blues]

You: Leaning Town, tho i'm not sure what you're asking everyone's reads for, unless you're planning on doing that big towntell of yours (or you just remembered why i thought you were scum for in that newbie game and refined your scum game for that?).

This isn't specific to you, but I'm kinda done with everyone treating us like ffery is the only member of our hydra

[Deacon Blues]

Kaze: Null, I think im not able to read Kaze at all
orc: Leaning Town, so far he seems like someone that wants to contribute in general.

holy shit read the game

[Deacon Blues]

bork

[Deacon Blues]

Why do i feel like you're just demanding things instead of just asking nicely :<

Probably cause I am. I'll tone it down, but it's obvious you're missing a ton of stuff that's happened.

[Deacon Blues]

You: Leaning Town, tho i'm not sure what you're asking everyone's reads for, unless you're planning on doing that big towntell of yours (or you just remembered why i thought you were scum for in that newbie game and refined your scum game for that?).

I am totally oblivious to what other people consider to be my towntells.

The reason I want your reads and the reads of the other nulls is because I am absofuckinglutely sure there are scum in that list. Maybe scum elsewhere too.

I want to know what you are thinking about the game. I want to know what is jumping out at you. I want to know what your reactions are.

I want to know that so that if you are town I can stop worrying about you.

[Deacon Blues]

holy shit read the game

And why the heck are you yelling at me I had a day where i didnt participate and let GiF handle it because i was swarmed with work (i think that was yesterday). Why do i feel like you're just demanding things instead of just asking nicely :<

Well see, we asked and we got a stale reads list that hadn't changed since somebody ROLECLAIMED AND CLEARED ANOTHER PLAYER AS WELL.

It was a little unsettling.

[Deacon Blues]

UNVOTE

[Deacon Blues]

Deacon why'd you hop off?

Because she's probably town. Enough town that I'm looking around for some other null read to chivvy into providing content.

[Deacon Blues]

What real scum-motivation would I have to make today into a Hawk vs Nacho?

I don't find this point compelling. I see both alignments go into defensive/retaliatory mode when accused.

[Deacon Blues]

Also, could anyone explain to me why Kaze's claim pushes him up into the town-ranks? I have a hard time seeing a role that when claimed in thread with give two confirmed town in a 13 player game. Seems a little too OP to me.

1) It seems obvious to me that he had the idea to do it from the get-go (has been hard defending orci all game)
2) Locks him into a certain claim super early, which could prove problematic with flips if he were scum
3) Doesn't seem to have a whole lot of utility to the scumteam even with that
4) The nature in which he claimed seems pro-town: he wasn't doing it to save himself.
5) It's not like masons don't exist in 13p, and this is weaker than that.

[Deacon Blues]

Also hi bork

I treat fery as the only member of your hydra because that's how I read hydras, I choose the player I'm most comfortable with and try to read them

You were also wrong about your read on me and I had no meta with you so I didn't really find talking to you a priority

Do you have something you feel went unnoticed?

Nah at this point cause of the gamestate I don't need anything else from you, just hoping I get a little more one on one time with some of the others I've played with before.

[Deacon Blues]

Or you mean in general - if anything I want to know more about why people have Nacho as town, but I think ffery and I both want that.

[Deacon Blues]

@pro - your 4) is making me look at things a little differently. I hadn't considered that and it kinda makes your other points make more sense looking from your POV.

@orci - is it possible, based on what you know about your role PM, that kaze is possibly scum that is confirmed as scum when you die? A simple Y/N is fine.

[Deacon Blues]

I haven't read past 357 so my comments might seem dumb, but I'm going to go through stuff after these questions.

Why didn't you RVS vote?

For this game I thought I'd try not participating in RVS voting. I always feel particularly ineffectual during RVS and feel pressured to vote when I don't want to. Anyways, we got out of RVS just fine without my vote, so w/e.

How do you feel about fuzzy now that he's played a bit more this game?

I sorted him town early but now he's swayed more null. I do feel like he's quieted a lot and (if scum) is content to let the more experienced players talk over him so he can fade into the woodwork.

What was with the "I wanted him to be scum"(referring to me) comment in 115?

You've never convinced yourself you were seeing something that simply wasn't there/didn't happen because you wanted to catch scum early? That's what I think happened when I misinterpreted some early comments of yours.

Do you have any actual reads?

Yes, mostly townreads at the moment. Deacon Blues, Prohawk, Mac, and now you are up there. I'll get back to you when I've read more of the thread.

Why aren't you scumhunting?

I'm very broken up inside that you don't think this looks like scumhunting.

Who do you think are scum? You say "mostly" townreads and you mention one null read.

[Deacon Blues]

You're breaking my heart, MafiaSSK.

[Deacon Blues]

Because you're not even trying to read me.

[Deacon Blues]

Because you're not even trying to read me.

I never know with you though. I read you as town for the most part, but this game you've seemed off.

Every single game I'm a little different. I'm not a robot.

And this hydra is a new collaboration. We get along pretty well, I think, but I can tell that my reads are more generous than bork's are. That's probably a good thing.

I want to learn how to read you on my own. I have not seen you put as much heart and soul into a game since, as you did in Paradox Prime. I misread you in that game, and so did ViTierce. And that combination led to your lynch.

I don't like repeating mistakes like that. So, give me some data that can lead to a better read, and I'll try to do the same.

[Deacon Blues]

Because you're not even trying to read me.

I never know with you though. I read you as town for the most part, but this game you've seemed off.

Every single game I'm a little different. I'm not a robot.

And this hydra is a new collaboration. We get along pretty well, I think, but I can tell that my reads are more generous than bork's are. That's probably a good thing.

I want to learn how to read you on my own. I have not seen you put as much heart and soul into a game since, as you did in Paradox Prime. I misread you in that game, and so did ViTierce. And that combination led to your lynch.

I don't like repeating mistakes like that. So, give me some data that can lead to a better read, and I'll try to do the same.

I so don't remember PxP. It was my first game back and I was a different player then.

But I mean you always seem to talk about how you're different from game to game, but everyone has a basic tone that carries across. Yours here has been different than the one's I've seen you with when you're town.

I burnt my town meta to the ground a few games ago. I mean burnt it to the ground in a game where I was scum.

I think that was a good thing in the overall scheme

I'm rebuilding with the stuff I think is meaningful and useful to me and to town. And I'm not going to restrain my play to an arbitrary set of "this is town ffery" behaviors going forward.

I don't expect this to make a huge, scary difference in my play, because I kinda lack imagination wrt the range of things you can do in mafia. I'm just not going to worry about whether I'm playing inside the known "town-ffery" envelope or not.

[Deacon Blues]

Town: {

Orci

,

Tammy

,

Fuzzy

, Mac, Kaze,

ProHawk

}
Null (L-R = T-S): {Pitoli, Rufflig, GifSakura, SSK, Mara}
Scum: {

Nacho

}

Nacho is my current conclusion based on the prohawk push but I'm annealing my take on it still. Wouldn't take to bank.

Orcinus/Kaze due to Kaze claim and Orci nod.


#UPDATE

Minami read is surprising to me, what's going on there? The gif head has been a hell of a lot more active and engaged than he ever was in touhou and providing a lot more good shit to boot.

For me, the short answer is that I needed something from gif or something from sakura to firm up the read at that point. And I think I got what I needed.

On a more global level, I'm finding that my reads tend to be a little more generious than bork's. I'm ok with his reads as the consensus stance, because I think we start at the zero-content point with different default positions, and over time we'll converge. I'm pretty sure that's borne out in the one game I remember where we were both town. I feel like there have at least 2 games where we were both town, but the only one I can remember right now is Walking Dead.

[Deacon Blues]

Pitoli, given what's on this page, where you placed your vote surprises me a little.

What are your other reads?

[Deacon Blues]

bork's doing a reset. We'll put down a vote tomorow.

[Deacon Blues]

I don't need to have a baseline for scum prohawk in order to call you out for acting differently; all I need is a baseline for town prohawk. I never said you were playing to your scum meta, I said you were playing differently and I think that's because you're scum. Why do I need experience with scum prohawk to say as much?

Take just one minute and think about this for a second.

Am I right in saying that you are trying to say acting not like your town meta is equivalent to scum? This thinking is completely fallacious and wrong.

First, who has more motivation to act like your town-self? A scum role or a town? While town doesn't want to be lynched, its a lot more detrimental as scum to be lynched. They have to act like town to not be lynched. In my opinion people emulating their town-self to a T are more likely to be scum than not. People aren't static.

^^ I swear you are channeling me in that response.

Also, I've seen Nacho make exactly that argument about a player playing outside their town meta more than once, which is why his attack seemed so half-assed.

Second, you aren't taking into consideration roles. People who draw power roles act differently as town-power-roles than they would as vanilla roles. Again it boils down to the risk factor of being lynched

.

Therefore, without a scum-baseline to base your read, you fail to consider the other possible scenarios as to why someone isn't playing like you believe that they should. Playing differently is not a scum-tell.

I am pretty sure I had responded to all of your questions and if I hadn't please reiterate which ones I had missed.

^^ This, though, is shit that I spout as any alignment.

And the "therefore..." has a "your attack is without merit" feel, which also leaves me a little ambivalent.

[Deacon Blues]

Hi mykonian.

Thanks for replacing in.

I'm not voting because Bork and I are doing a reset, but he has a week-old baby and wasn't able to free up time this weekend.

I want our vote on rufflig. We'll see if Bork and I still feel that way tomorrow.

We're also still not very happy with Nacho's play. Still wanting someone to tell us why they think Nacho is town.
'

[Deacon Blues]

bork isn't going to be able to finish the game.

VOTE: rufflig

[Deacon Blues]

i'm chickening out.

About what?

[Deacon Blues]

Town: {

Orci

,

Tammy

,

Fuzzy

, Mac, Kaze,

ProHawk

}
Null (L-R = T-S): {Pitoli, Rufflig, GifSakura, SSK, Mara}
Scum: {

Nacho

}

Nacho is my current conclusion based on the prohawk push but I'm annealing my take on it still. Wouldn't take to bank.

Orcinus/Kaze due to Kaze claim and Orci nod.


#UPDATE

Minami read is surprising to me, what's going on there? The gif head has been a hell of a lot more active and engaged than he ever was in touhou and providing a lot more good shit to boot.

here here. gif had me fooled in touhou (a little bit, i think i might've clocked it eventually) but here he seems totally different.

I take it you didn't see the follow-up reply to Sakura.

Bork was really bothered that Nacho asked this question. Me, not so much. I think you guys forget that this is a hydra and prior to this morning there were two players' concerns and questions that needed to be addressed. And Bork's reads trend lower than mine based on what I've seen.

[Deacon Blues]

thank tlaloc someone agrees with me.

[Deacon Blues]

I don't understand what you're trying to do.

[Deacon Blues]

I'm here.

[Deacon Blues]

agree with your townblloc composition.

[Deacon Blues]

SSK is an obstinate lurker when he's town, but he plays the same way as scum from what I've seen. Sorting him won't be easy.

[Deacon Blues]

I'm not a fan of info lynches either.

Mac, what did you think of pitoli's interactions with nacho?

And do you have a town read on nacho?

[Deacon Blues]

It reminded me of this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=32520

We were scum, she was town. Nacho threw a vote down on her and she reacted with a countervote.

Here are a couple of posts that she made about the votes:

idk, just, third vote on a wagon? Im always watching if that shit looks like an opportunity to cement momentum on a mislynch

Nacho it just didnt feel like you even gave it that much thought

yknow what's really fun, tryin and failjng to type this on my phone

Don't stop believing, pitoli.

this sounds like you dont necessarily think im scum?

/hopeful

She was run up to L-1 pretty quickly so there were a lot more players than just us to interact with.

Anyway.

Both of them are bothering me for different reasons. Why isn't Nacho the one who's reaching out and trying t round up a town bloc?

[Deacon Blues]

I know from experience that his repertoire of stances and approaches to games as town is voluminous. But, he's in a curious place that I don't remember seeing before. He's not being apathetic and letting others set the agenda. He's not stepping up and leading. But, he's kind occupying the hub of the wheel, and has controlled the tempo of the game with what look like very strategic pushes and direction changes. But, it's not leading anywhere. Unless he really had to do the earlier crap to cement reads on Tammy and ProHawk. And, I don't think it takes a wagon on Tammy for him to sort her. ProHawk, maybe.

[Deacon Blues]

Prod dodge post. Probably a post tomorrow.

You're late.

[Deacon Blues]

Actually I'll help here:

VOTE: minaho

What did you think about the exchange I had with sakura starting here?

[Deacon Blues]

@SSK are you discounting Kaze's claim about orcinus?

[Deacon Blues]

Tammy, I would kinda like some thoughts on that exchange. I got a town-anger feel from her posts. But, the dearth of contribution since then by either head bugs me. It's midterms week for GiF and sakura's on v/la, so that could be explanation enough maybe.

[Deacon Blues]

(Give me a minute, I was reading it. That and I'm doing several things at once.)

Hrm. I missed the v/la notice. I really only joined the wagon based on lack of activity and was hoping that it would make them come back here.

I also just realized that something that bugged me earlier was null. Originally when I read the game, it looked like within 4 minutes of you pointing out there was a role reveal, she was able to find who the role reveal was and fix it, which made me think that her original reads weren't as spontaneous as she was giving them. But in looking back, there was a post before you mention the role reveal where you point out that those reads didn't make sense and she needed to read the game. So. I don't know why, but the "random iso" rubbed me the wrong way a little.

My experience with Sakura is pretty limited. She had a pretty strong town game in the game in which I was scum. She came under suspicion and probably dealt with it about as she was here, although I and the rest of my scum team were white knighting her pretty hard. (I'd have probably white knighted her as town in that game as she looked really really town.) Since then what I've seen is more anger and meltdown when she's town, but I know that she's working on that. So, I guess in short I don't have enough experience with her to be able to read real anger coming from her. The frustration that you were being demanding felt really real, but I'm not sure that's alignment indicative as she could be frustrated either way UNLESS she's the type as scum to pander to people.

It takes me a while to sort her these days, but her reactions to being suspected/voted are a big part of it. I think she intentionally OMGUSes sometimes when she's voted regardless of alignment. When she's town, it's often part of a reaction test.

She thinks she's a better player as scum than as town. Her town game has been heavily influenced by Nacho but she's begun to take what she's learned from him and apply it in her own way/style. She also runs a lot of low-profile gambits as town.

That's my thumbnail.

[Deacon Blues]

ProHawk, when you're around I'd like to talk reads, maybe setting aside the orcinus/kaze question for now.

I mostly agree with Tammy.

Town: Tammy, Kaze, Orcinus, Mac, Prohawk, Fuzzy (last 2 reads are weaker than first 4)
Null: Minami, MafiaSSK
Scum: pitoli, The Rufflig, Nacho (pitoli read feels really influenced, though)

[Deacon Blues]

Fery it's surprising me why you're not voting rufflig considering that you have rufflig on your list and that ruffligs flip basically tells us mykos alignment

The info lynch aspect makes me nervous.

And I feel like I'm abrogating a responsibility if I don't do more to sort Nacho before the game day ends. I don't want to see a lynch pushed through before I talk with him more.

[Deacon Blues]

But, you do know that my vote actually is on rufflig right now? I'll unvote if that wagon really takes off and I'm still waiting for Godot.

[Deacon Blues]

I voted him in 792.

@Mod votecount is off.

[Deacon Blues]

@Myko Can you give some examples of him playing the newb card?

@Fuzzy, is English your first language?

[Deacon Blues]

Myko, why aren't you worried about your wagon at all?

because I have the feeling it's not based on my play, so there's little I can do about it. I've read the thread, put my reads out, know what I want, told people what I want and now it's up to other people. Being worried is for people who have the idea they can influence what's going to happen.

and it's not you orcinus Feeling sorry for a vote is I think more common with scum then town, depending on personality. It's in a long line of posts by fuzzy that are off. Not just posting "badly", but posting in a scummy manner.

The newbie card has been played quite a bit here though

, so I'm pushing a wagon with rather a bit of resistance, I guess.

The bolded.

[Deacon Blues]

I don't think it qualifies as a disappearance.

[Deacon Blues]

I just did a cursory metadive on Myko to see if I'm on the right track about this push. Checked out Micro 233, TM2102, and Newbie 1310 among others.

Myko posts quite often as town, usually being the most active/2nd. most active in the game, even in games where he replaces in halfway/has large gaps of inactivity. This is partially due to his tendency to post multiple times in a row as town. ScumMyko is significantly less active, preferring to quote-stripe rather than reply in multiple posts. TownMyko generally has a cheery disposition, often speaking pleasantries to people he's familiar with, happily fluffing on occasion. ScumMyko is much more serious and terse, getting down to business as soon as he hits the thread. TownMyko also appears to frequently use Smilies whereas ScumMyko almost never uses them. TownMyko also appears to reach out a bit for support on wagons/opinions on other players a bit more than ScumMyko does - ScumMyko rather takes a more "My reads are better than yours so follow me you derp" attitude. That's not to say he doesn't do this as both alignments, just far more as Scum than Town.

I'm by no means fantastic at Meta-reading, nor am I willing to base an entire read around Meta, but considering that Myko appears to be playing to his scum meta(along with the fact that Mara was scumming up the slot beforehand) I'm feeling incredibly confident about this push now.

So, yeah. Lynch him.

Look at you! <3

Do you have links to the games you meta'd?

[Deacon Blues]

Sadly my first language is English. Sometimes my brain goes faster than my hands so I don't always type the exact way I am thinking....My better posts is when i slow down and makes sure I am saying exactly what I am thinking.
I can see how some might mistake this for being a little scummy.

@ Orcinus

- I did not like how he came in and started to yell scum without reading everything. I also stated that what i saw from his town meta that this is not a town Myko as far as I could tell

- His reason for wanting me lynched were weak and a stretch.I would also say forced. For example he said I was scum bc I said sorry in one post. I have seen other players say sorry in their posts and no one yelled scum. It is clear by the context that I was trying to be polite. Even if it was not if you check my explanation with the post it pretty clear that the reason I give matches up with the stated post. The second reason given is that I asked questions instead of just blasting out accusation. He is basically basing me being scum based on a play style. I have been pretty consistent with the way I have played. I asked question and based on the answers I decided whether or not I should peruse a case against someone. I have tried to make cases against people I thought were scummy. He said my post are scummy but does not says how. What about my post that makes them scummy.
I admit I am awkward but this is normal for me. I even admitted this before. Maybe it is just me but it seems that he knows I am awkward and hopes to get an easy lynch by taking my words out of context or trying to portray my awkwardness as scummy

- My problem with Mara was that she was not only defensive and stand-offish but was excessively so.

- She admit lurking which is not scummy per-say but tried to frame her lurking as being okay but No Hana as scummy

- Her vote on Ornicus really seems like a OMGUS or perhaps a way to take attention away from herself.( I am talking pre meltdown)

-I do not know what to make of her meltdown since I seen both scum and tell meltdown before. I am guessing it was a scum meltdown since I believe with my heart


Also if the cop wants to investigate me I am fine with that. I welcome it.

No worries. It could be something regional. I just felt like I was picking up on some grammatical stuff.

Look at you! <3

Do you have links to the games you meta'd?

Heh. Aren't you proud? ^^

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=31352

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=21914

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=24407

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=23928

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=23781

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=23295

Micro 65 and 76 are a bit anomalous - Myko takes a bit more of an apathetic stance as he appears to have been considering taking a break around this time. Some of the same patterns are prominent, though.

I'd not mind a second set of eyes since it's entirely likely I'm just seeing what I want to see.

I'll look through them tonight or tomorrow and tell you what I think.

[Deacon Blues]

Tammy, I think you have a good point on ruffling treatment of me. I am afraid I am misreading him based on this because I misread him in every game we played together IIRC. I don't know why he's trusting me easily, but I don't want to fuck up that trust if we are both town for once.

This resonates and I'd be surprised if you'd say quite this if you're scum.

Unvote

[Deacon Blues]

I don't like how Prohawk ended up on the easy lynch. I don't like how he fell off when I stopped pushing him, and I still don't really think he's town.

His suspicion of Kaze' claim has a town-ProHawk feel to me.

[Deacon Blues]

I felt like you gave GiF too much credit for his early posting. I hate trying to read Sakura these days. I've gone from townreading her for a sort of sullen, snappish responsiveness in games to scumreading her for it and I don't know why, really.

What is your reason for thinking she's scum.

[Deacon Blues]

dead laptop means too many games to keep up with on small annoying devices. This game will have my love tomorrow.

[Deacon Blues]

Because too many town?

[Deacon Blues]

I'm starting 10 pages back because I feel like it was about that far back that I lost the big picture. Bear with me please.

pitoli

i voted you with no conviction
you voted me because i had no conviction
i say i have no conviction
you say why vote with no conviction
i say because i want a momentum change

i guess what i'm saying is that we're going literally nowhere

Do you still feel we're going nowhere?

strong townread on nacho.

the interactions weren't good. she didn't come off great to me from voting for nacho instead of asking. i felt like she was trying to look like doing something but it didn't really work. "omgus can get you places" was terrible reasoning, too.

would say townssk this game.

I could lynch pitoli today.

I'd really rather not lynch Rufflig today.

I'm having trouble reading SSK, myself.

I'm not reading Nacho as town atm.

(My thoughts as of the last couple pages.)

Talk about your Rufflig read?

@ Myko
As somebody once said in a movie...." if we were in different circumstances we might of been friends. "Maybe one day we can play on a town team together . It just happened that you landed a scum slot

is this really goddamn forced or is it just me

It does seem forced, yes.

@Myko Can you give some examples of him playing the newb card?

@Fuzzy, is English your first language?

Is played. Not him playing it. There have been a couple of instances of people saying he was a badly writing town. And that's a bad sentence but I don't know how to say it neater right now. Maybe tomorrow when I've slept.

He's not a newb. That's why I was wondering. His writing style comes of unnatural to me, but I saw that in town games as well as the scum game. I'm going to reread his scum game tonight to see if I think its becoming more of a match with this game.

I just did a cursory metadive on Myko to see if I'm on the right track about this push. Checked out Micro 233, TM2102, and Newbie 1310 among others.

Myko posts quite often as town, usually being the most active/2nd. most active in the game, even in games where he replaces in halfway/has large gaps of inactivity. This is partially due to his tendency to post multiple times in a row as town. ScumMyko is significantly less active, preferring to quote-stripe rather than reply in multiple posts. TownMyko generally has a cheery disposition, often speaking pleasantries to people he's familiar with, happily fluffing on occasion. ScumMyko is much more serious and terse, getting down to business as soon as he hits the thread. TownMyko also appears to frequently use Smilies whereas ScumMyko almost never uses them. TownMyko also appears to reach out a bit for support on wagons/opinions on other players a bit more than ScumMyko does - ScumMyko rather takes a more "My reads are better than yours so follow me you derp" attitude. That's not to say he doesn't do this as both alignments, just far more as Scum than Town.

I'm by no means fantastic at Meta-reading, nor am I willing to base an entire read around Meta, but considering that Myko appears to be playing to his scum meta(along with the fact that Mara was scumming up the slot beforehand) I'm feeling incredibly confident about this push now.

So, yeah. Lynch him.

I'm finally getting to this meta, too. But your comments about his pleasantries could be player list dependent. My style of play in the Space game was more serious and reserved than I typically play, for instance, because I had never played a game with most of the player list.

Sadly my first language is English. Sometimes my brain goes faster than my hands so I don't always type the exact way I am thinking....My better posts is when i slow down and makes sure I am saying exactly what I am thinking.
I can see how some might mistake this for being a little scummy.

@ Orcinus

- I did not like how he came in and started to yell scum without reading everything. I also stated that what i saw from his town meta that this is not a town Myko as far as I could tell

- His reason for wanting me lynched were weak and a stretch.I would also say forced. For example he said I was scum bc I said sorry in one post. I have seen other players say sorry in their posts and no one yelled scum. It is clear by the context that I was trying to be polite. Even if it was not if you check my explanation with the post it pretty clear that the reason I give matches up with the stated post. The second reason given is that I asked questions instead of just blasting out accusation. He is basically basing me being scum based on a play style. I have been pretty consistent with the way I have played. I asked question and based on the answers I decided whether or not I should peruse a case against someone. I have tried to make cases against people I thought were scummy. He said my post are scummy but does not says how. What about my post that makes them scummy.
I admit I am awkward but this is normal for me. I even admitted this before. Maybe it is just me but it seems that he knows I am awkward and hopes to get an easy lynch by taking my words out of context or trying to portray my awkwardness as scummy

- My problem with Mara was that she was not only defensive and stand-offish but was excessively so.

Have you played with her before, that you can judge this was excessive?

- She admit lurking which is not scummy per-say but tried to frame her lurking as being okay but No Hana as scummy

Can you link to what you are talking about here?

- Her vote on Ornicus really seems like a OMGUS or perhaps a way to take attention away from herself.( I am talking pre meltdown)

I only see the one vote, and it looks like the "meltdown" followed shortly thereafter.

-I do not know what to make of her meltdown since I seen both scum and tell meltdown before. I am guessing it was a scum meltdown since I believe with my heart

What leads you to believe this? Is it based on other games with her?

Also if the cop wants to investigate me I am fine with that. I welcome it.

What makes you think the game set up includes a cop?

@ Myko
why is it a weird explanation?Funny i give you a rope to possible crawl out of the hole that you dug and you want to hang me with it. As far as Kaze's meta dive you have not shown why we should believe this is not the norm for your scum game, If you want to show that he is wrong I know I would be open to listen. Post a scum game where you acted differently.

You shouldn't trust someone else's meta report, even if you think they are town, unless you know they are talking about experiential meta. Research the linked threads for yourself and see if you agree. Wanting to lynch someone on the basis of a meta report you haven't verified? Not good.

I'm rounding up my town block. My vote on pitoli was a reach out in and of itself. You also know that I don't obviously build town blocks I'm every game

What are your thoughts about pitoli post reach-out? Are you thinking she's town? You moved your vote, but you moved it off ruffling mostly on the basis of uncertainty, I think.

I think I want to work with SSK town based on his reads list. He misses a lot yes, but I think scum partners would probably fill him in on Orc claim.

This is a good point.

I agree that I gave him too much credit for his early posting, which is something I discovered last night while looking for alternatives. I don't like that Sakura sheeped me after voting me; it felt like if she was concerned about Nachoscum, then she probably wouldn't have been so immediately reassured by me. She is not the type of player who dances with me or challenges me to dance with her, she usually just follows along with my initial pushes. If she's paranoid of me, she's usually clearly and obviously paranoid of me, not this strange middle ground where she's kind of paranoid of me but not really. So I feel like she's sorting me out because she thinks that's the type of thing I would townread from her, but not showing actual signs of sorting me out because she's not actually town.

Yeah. I liked the way she reacted to my vote a while back, but I don't like that she's not trying to figure me out. She's just called that vote unusual aggression. it's not, really. It was totally based on my asking them for their reads and getting an outdated list that contained no reasoning. At the time I didn't know that was Sakura. I thought GiF was being flippant.

Pitoli town based on interactions and a level of ballsiness required to be coming from pitoli scum that I don't think she possesses.
Marangal meltdown makes myko town, don't really give a shit what he posts although moving away from the norm in a significant way is something that comes from myko town more often than myko scum.
Tammy deacon town.
MafiaSSK gets two points based on what I assume scumbuddies would have filled him in on. If scumteam is prohawk/gif though, maybe not. Otherwise would prefer not to kill him based on townreads elsewhere (head can be cut off today).
Ruffling trust of me is weird and I am suspicious as all hell, but not sure he is best flip for today. Look into again later.
Prohawk still scummy. Conviction in response to me was good, follow up responses were not. Current line on ruffling is concerning if ruffling town.
Mac town.
Fuzzy most likely town, although I have paranoid flashes now and then.
Kaze also most likely town although I have similar paranoid flashes on him.
Minami good bet for scum.

Does scum-Nacho typically provide so many town reads?

If anything, scum-Nacho's reads lists are more detailed. But, so are town-Nacho's reads list when he has access to a computer.

Really...... bc unless I am a Godfather there is no reason I would want to be investigated. I am doubting there is a Godfather role in a mini game.Plus this is nonsense bc I have seen plenty of time where townies ask to be investigated. I would be surprised if you have not seen that also. I am really confused by your logic.

I've seen it a couple of times. Last time was pitoli. And I've seen it work a couple of times. I think it works more often then the average amount of scum in a game.

in pitoli's case she responded to a joke, and I failed to understand that properly, it didnt make sense to me at that moment. Your mention of it is completely out of the blue. Pitoli had 2 reasons to be town and think about cops (one person was joking about it towards her, and she was a cop variant herself). I don't see that counting for you here.

And you aren't confused.

AH HA! So we have played before.

That nacho suggestion looked like it implied the knowledge of a scum encryptor

I'm going to go with mod meta here and say that there's a good chance that the game design may include day chat without it being tied to an encryptor. Cabd loves day chat as scum. This could be a site meta thing, but especially in theme games I don't assume that scum are restricted to night chat only.

That nacho suggestion looked like it implied the knowledge of a scum encryptor

Pretty much my point...

Would you agree with what I said just above re Cabd and scum chat?

ffery/bork seem way to aggresive for what I remember of ffery or bork (tho the one game i played with bork was a long time ago)

Are you talking about something besides my voting you here? The games we've played where I was scum, I was way less aggressive than I typically am is town. This characterization feels wrong. I'm not sure if it's town-wrong. :/

One instance also doesn't disprove an entire school of thought, hawkie.

Actually, it does only take one instance to prove a school of absolute thought wrong. Something can't be true when its not...

But its beside the point, saying that Rufflig is a weak lynch because I/we/he don't have game experience together is not true in the least. I could fight against the majority and push for your lynch, but I actually think he has a greater chance of flipping scum than you do at this point, and it wouldn't get me anywhere to tunnel on you all day long when I don't see many others wanting to lynch you at this point.

Are you leaning town on GifSakura?

[Deacon Blues]

Fferyblues what are your current thoughts on minaho?

I don't know. :/

Usually town-GiF seems really, really town to me, and when I'm not sure, he's often scum. There are exceptions in both directions though. And his being away from the game for over a week doesn't help in sorting this out.

Sakura's gotten a lot trickier in recent games.

ProHawk has a point about the SSK wagon.