Mini 1578: Lord of the Rings!! - GaME OVeR

[Protogonos]

/confirm

[Protogonos]

OMG LOL.

Reinoe wagon is AAAAAAWWWWWWWFULLLLLLLLLL. Even if he is scum. Which I hope he is not.

How Do You Make Your Scum list? Do you rank your scum or are they all interchangeable?

I do not rank scum explicitly, because my choice of lynch target is not necessarily the person I find most scummy, if I consider someone most scummy at all.

Do You Vote without a reason in order to gauge reactions or do you like giving a reason for your votes?

I do not always provide reasons for my votes; they always have reasons behind them, even if that reason is probing in nature.

Do You Value "consistency" or is that irrelevant to you?

Irrelevant regarding reads. Relevant toward most other things.

[Protogonos]

That was an RVS vote, they have silly reasons like that! It wasn't serious and I have no idea why you're overreacting like this. No one would have hammered you, not until proper discussion about it was had.

We had proper discussions. We also had players portraying shite votes as legit.

And if you are town, I'd like you to know that you've taken away some of the best information - the hammer. The hammer vote is so important for finding scum (at least in my scumhunting tactics it is) that by taking that away from town, you've hurt towns chances at finding scum off of your wagon.

Wow, I almost believe this is not canned. What database of Things that Sound Townish do you use?

[Protogonos]

Good riddance.

Are you telling us what we should say to you tomorrow if reinoe flips town?

[Protogonos]

reinoe freaking deserves to die. He killed himself after all. I fail to see why I should be held responsible for his foolish actions.

You voted him

AFTER HE FULL-CLAIMED

. The slightest suggestion that such a vote is anything other than an unequivocal endorsement of his death is so implausible as to be offensive.

[Protogonos]

Why do you hope he is not scum?

Because it would give me near-orgasmic pleasure to witness the town realizing that rash behavior has consequences.

Proto is scum, btw.

[Protogonos]

Why do you claim on page 4? You were at L-4 I think? I fail to see the logic behind that really, claiming a powerful town role so early without much reason. Especially one like that. And so maybe you would get hammered soon, maybe peoples reasons were stupid, but you hammered your own goddamn self. Which is anti town and plain idiotic.

I am glad you are gone because this will be alot better of a game without you.

Can we keep this civil, please? Thank you.

[Protogonos]

Reinoe, to be fair, Frodo Baggins is not necessarily in the game. A common mod practice (and how I run my theme games) is to have more characters than necessary and randomize those that are selected. This means there is no way to break the setup using flavor. shos may also have omitted Frodo for any other number of reasons.

[Protogonos]

So the theory was that scum would take their chances at L-4 and claim a role that's almost definitely in the game?

I never said that you were scum. In fact, I do not believe you are. I simply said that the assumption that Frodo Baggins has to be in the game is FALSE.

Yes, proper discussions in twilight, which is only happening because shos hasn't locked the thread yet. And we had reinou believing shite votes were legit, there's a difference.

My own assessment is that the votes were actual votes. I see no reason to believe otherwise, since the players said that the votes were real. So...

The only reason I said that was because I didn't think reinou truly understood the consequences of what he did. I feel that when people are flailing around and raging at everything and everyone,

it's best to put your thoughts into as many small, concise words so that they can't misunderstand you in the slightest

.

ROFL. That is some condescension if I ever saw any.

p-edit: @reinou - yes, it is hard to believe that anyone but

newbies and idiots

would quickhammer. Everyone knows if you quickhammer your ass is going to get quicklynched

so

hard the next day, no one would ever do it.

Lies.

[Protogonos]

I wouldn't call the town's behavior rash. After all, Reinoe was the one who self voted.

And it was only a hammer because reinoe was at L-1. The fact that players who voted after the full claim are pissed about the lynch (and not just the self-hammer) is proof enough.

[Protogonos]

Aronis and Bulbazak should both die posthaste.

[Protogonos]

VOTE: Aronis for reasons I posted yesterday.

I also vehemently support a Bulb wagon. Dayvigs, act now!

[Protogonos]

P-Edit: Drew; you see the light! Join me!

[Protogonos]

VOTE: Aronis for reasons I posted yesterday.

I also vehemently support a Bulb wagon. Dayvigs, act now!

So I am responsible for reinoe idiotically hammering himself?

No, q.v. my post about why that line of reasoning makes no sense.

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

So, you are advocating a course of action that just happens to make a discussion of how scummy you are obsolete? Forgive me for not complying.


And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon. Second, the reinoe wagon was TERRIBLE and any competent player could see that. I was hardly WKing him because his behavior was so obviously irreconcilable with scum alignment that the possibility was not even worth considering in the first place. Abject horror gave way to an Arya Stark-esque cackling as I witnessed his self-hammer.


As I said yesterday, Aronis and Bulb should both get lynched ASAP.

[Protogonos]

And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.

That was never my argument for you being scum.

Mind restating it very succinctly, so there is no confusion?

It really was not, and I outlined why several times.

And none of your outlines was in the least bit compelling, since they relied on associating particular actions with scum for no reason whatsoever. The wagon was shit and the reasoning was shit. I have not even played that many games, and I have never had a reinoe-esque breakdown come from scum. Furthermore, I have never seen someone lynched after an "obvious fakeclaim" flip scum.

Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right.

Not in my experience. In my experience, any halfway decent player would have leaped off that wagon as soon as they claim occurred.

You could have disagreed with the quicklynch, but then you'd have to assign blame to Reinoe, but that didn't gel with your agenda to venerate him.

Reinoe did not put himself at L-1. Putting of the blame on him is a transparent attempt at revisionist history. That wagon was hella scummy, not only because someone was at a serious L-1 when some of the players had not even posted yet.

This is not a town reaction.

W/e.



Bulb is sooooo scum that I am almost tempted to move off Aronis, who is also reaaaaaaaally scum.

[Protogonos]

You came in and hard defended Reinoe as town AFTER he was already hammered.

Which happens to be when I came into the thread. How is that a problem, exactly?

During this time you espoused Reinoe as town during a time when that wasn't known and the evidence provided didn't seem likely.

Your incompetence is really not my problem. I have at most the same knowledge you have, and it was inconceivable to me that he was scum. Sorry I can tell when players are town.

You also set up enough lynches to get a 3 person scum team to Lylo, even though there was no indication that Reinoe would flip town.

There was plenty of indication to me.

You essentially took it as a certainty when that knowledge hadn't been provided yet, and it looked more like an attempt to garner towncred and manipulate the town more than anything town motivated.

Except that reinoe would have had to been trolling hella during twilight for that to be remotely plausible.

I'm so sorry that no one consulted you Mr. Expert with zero on-site games of experience.

I am obviously an alt.

The reasoning for the lynch was sound. Reinoe had claimed Unkillable, which is not just a rare role, but a bastard one, which makes it almost impossible to appear in the game. He then followed it up with an appeal to fear of "Don't kill me guys or something bad will happen to the town!" which is the type of statement flailing scum make when desperate to avoid death.

Or frustrated, panicky town make. Have you played with poor pieguy?

Furthermore, that statement doesn't gel with the unkillable claim he had just made. You know what else doesn't mesh with that claim? The self-hammer. If Reinoe's role was what he had claimed it to be, he'd at least be trying to fight the lynch as hard as he could, or at the very least, he'd be asking for our protective role to be on him during the night. We didn't get any of that from him. Instead he self-hammered and then acted all self-righteous, something that doesn't make sense coming from town. True, he was town, but he certainly didn't look like it at the time.

He looked it to me. And his self-hammer should have been an obvious marker of his towniness.

And just because you haven't seen it with only your handful of games as experience, don't dismiss it as never happening, especially when those that pointed out the tell have at least several year's worth of experience on-site.

I am not at all worried about my level of experience.

And I'm sure that worked fine on the trading card forums you are from, but this is Mafiascum. You're playing in the big leagues now.

And he was at L-1 for good reason. And as I've said multiple times, he was in no danger of getting any further votes, because cutting the day short is anti-town.

While it may be anti-town, it does happen. Frequently. And anyone still voting someone at L-1 has no basis for opposing a lynch of that person.

He probably would have sat at L-1 to L-2 for at least a week and a half before we would even think about hammering,

In what alternate universe do you live?

And even if someone did quickhammer, we'd most likely be lynching that person today. The fact of the matter is that Reinoe was not in danger of a quicklynch when he hammered, which is why your attempt at putting the blame elsewhere is extremely scummy, since again, you are trying to exalt Reinoe in an effort to paint yourself as more town.

I am not attempting to put the blame elsewhere. I am just saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that putting someone at L-1 and then complaining when the person gets hammered is absurd.

P-edit: If Proto is an Aegor alt, he needs to be lynched with fire. Aegor knows better.

@Proto are you an alt?

Of course I am an alt, but unlike some people, I am perfectly able to conceal myself.

[Protogonos]

inactive people

: comment

Because not only did you WK Reinoe hard, but you did so at a time when that action would have zero effect on the Reinoe wagon.

There was no other point

to the action than to come back later and go "See! See! I called him town!" and get towncred.

This argument is total bollocks. You are simply asserting that my motivation was X and then saying I am scummy because X is scummy. My point in posting was to point out a bad wagon. You are mixing up necessary and sufficient conditions here. You can read scum intent into most things; that does not mean it is actually there.

You don't have the same knowledge I have, because all the evidence indicated that Reinoe was scum.

This is simply not true.

And if I really am scum, like you say, how could you be calling me incompetent in regards to my Reinoe read? Wouldn't I have been pushing him purposely if I was scum as you claim?

Yes, and your push was blatantly horrible. For either alignment, your actions betrayed incompetence.

It really must be nice having knowledge concerning everyone's alignments prior to the start of the game.

I could only imagine!

All the more reason to lynch you. You should know better than to be spouting what you are.

I've seen enough scum quickhammer to know that this is not the case.

See, our experiences differ yet again! I have never, ever seen scum do what reinoe did. At least out of panic.

I never said I opposed the lynch. I just didn't want it to happen so fast.

Now you know not to increase the speed of a wagon after a claim until others have at least posted if you do not actually want to take the risk of your vote contributing to a fast lynch.

The one not ran by trolls and fairies.

Right, so not this site, where that kind of thing happens frequently. To put a number on it, half of my games current games have had quickhammers or even hammers without claims.

Yes you have, multiple times. In fact, that's the whole basis of your play today.

Blame =/= responsibility. I blame reinoe for his self-hammer. Anyone who voted after his claim is partially responsible for his lynch.

I think it's natural to complain when the first day ends only after 24 hours of play. And I think it's ridiculous not to look at the person who self-hammered as responsible when ridiculing the speed.

See above.

[Protogonos]

May we please stop discussing roles? May we also vote Aronis, please?

[Protogonos]

What roles have been discussed?

Flavor roles, duh.

Ok if the mod says its accurate, it is accurate, let's move on peeps.

Uh...no. I have no desire to move on. I think it is worth investigating why I have four votes. There is no reason for a town doublevoter or hidden voter not to disclose that fact.

[Protogonos]

Why would they do that? It makes them an automatic NK target?

A double vote is crucial in late stage.

Double-votes are negative utility because there is no guarantee that the player will conform to the town's wishes. They are potentially even worse than vigs because they deprive the town of the desired lynch.

[Protogonos]

conspiracy theorist head here:

scum has the ring. a mysterious extra vote with no name on it is in play. quick analysis shows that the players on the proto wagon can't have permanent invisible votes or double votes, and rational says that if someone has a 1-shot use of one of these day 2 is not the day to use it.

conclusion: the ring has a vote. scum chooses where the vote goes.

That was my thought. I will leave the obvious conclusion unstated.

[Protogonos]

Alternatively, the Ring Bearer (now presumably the godfather or whatever) has a second vote that he can use on any player. I would find that more likely, otherwise the game is easily broken in the manner you suggest.

[Protogonos]

if this was your thought, how come you didn't say so in the first place?

Why would I share that off the bat? It would have defeated the purpose of asking whether there was a doublevoter or something.

[Protogonos]

Wall:

Spoiler:

A lot of good it did if that person was already a dead man walking...

I enjoyed posting it. That is good enough for me. I would suggest it had other utility as well.

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

Again, just because he could be explained by his being newb scum does not mean that it is equally plausible that he was scum. My unequivocal impression was that he was town.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon.

Competent scum generally do not push terrible wagons that will lead to suspicion of its members.

Actually, it should be no surprise that I'm spouting what I am, and any experienced player in my place would be saying the same.

You are obviously grossly unqualified to state that there is some objectively correct interpretation of reinoe's actions.

That's part of why I'm thinking you're scum: The WKing and ignoring of why Reinoe looked so scummy to begin with.

At no point did he look scummy to me, even as I read through the game the very first time.

You want to make excuses for him and absolve him of any responsibility he had in his own lynch and push it elsewhere, all so you can score some mislynches.

I never excused him of any responsibility. I simply acknowledged that the responsibility was not solely his.

And given that your track record in this game is a clusterfuck mislynch of an obvtown player, maybe you should be more reserved in your predictions of what my actions will produce.

I thought you were saying I was scum? How then are you rebuking me as if I was town?

Insert the conditional yourself.

Why is it that both you and Sns are so concerned over a double voter?

I want to know whether that vote is controlled by scum (likely through the Ring) or town. That seems like useful info to me.

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Because it came off more like "hurr durr this is funny" rather than "you guys are morons, he was obvious town."

We're obviously reading different games, because that's exactly what he did, only in this case he tried to venerate Reinoe and started lining up lynches based on the wagon before the flip even went through.

You are both correct; the amusement dimension that Toogeloo mentions was certainly there.

[Protogonos]

I think I would be okay with a Rach lynch if nothing better comes along.

Spoiler:

Not going to answer. Just like I thought.

There is nothing to answer. Everything reinoe did is consistent with town freaking out at the speed of a completely unjustified wagon.

A point that I've already made. So are you calling me incompetent scum? Or are you just floundering because you ended up backing yourself into a corner with that original statement?

You are incompetent, and your reaction to reinoe and his wagon is incompetent whether you are scum or town, for different reasons.

Maybe, but I know what it looked like at the time, and I have no idea how you magically got the opposite impression but yet can't be bothered to explain. Heck, I spelled out point for point why I thought he was scum. The only answer you could be bothered to give for your oh so strong townread was gut.

And the only reason you have is gut, since nothing you stated is actually indicative of scum. It is just anti-town. Again, you are assuming that just because scum would do something means only scum would do something. Scum have an incentive to post. Surely you are not also claiming that posting is scummy as a result? This fine point, which has heretofore eluded you, demolishes your entire argument.

For someone who is not excusing him of any responsibility, you sure do like to talk about how it's not his fault and everyone else's.

Remind me where I say it was not at all his fault?

Double voters tend to be town, so that seems like rolefishing to me.

My blanket policy is to request that all negative utility players claim. That would include Millers, Governors, Doublevoters, etc. Anyway, at this point I find it more likely that the Ring is responsible.

[Protogonos]

VOTE: Drew-sta

[Protogonos]

Ew. No massclaim.

[Protogonos]

Also, way to go, person who killed Bulb.

[Protogonos]

The massclaim, if it happens today, should occur later.

If we have a cop with results, it may make sense for him to claim because if we wagon people on whom he has inno results, we end up wasting time.

Not like Guyett. Aronis should die.

[Protogonos]

So now that Aronis has claimed and been confirmed as town flavor cop, what say you Protos.

After all you managed to get our cop to out himself.

Please.

usually mods use lesser roles for fake claims not major characters.

Not true.

Question, what do we do with the ring?

Do you have the Ring? Otherwise, why would you ask?

Who has the Ring? Who is the Vig?



I am also hardcore scumreading Fail Hydra, but I am willing to hammer 3tm. Aronis is not alignment-confirmed, obviously.

Guyett, run me through again why it would make any sense for you to frame Drew as the DV.

[Protogonos]

VOTE: ThreetoMango

[Protogonos]

Convince me that protecting Bulb and then submitting no action whatsoever in plausible in any way, and I will consider moving this vote.

[Protogonos]

Guyett, could you please commit to a time at which you will share why you wanted to frame Drew?

[Protogonos]

I still do not understand why the Vig has not claimed.

[Protogonos]

In fact, I'm also really curious why you would be okay to hammer them too.

First, please let me know how many games you have played with Rach.

Second, 3TM has contributed exactly 0 to this game, admits a PR that basically cannot be verified ever beyond a Flavor Cop investigation, and if then, could still be scum, also admits that a three-person hydra failed to use the power N2 and used it on someone scummy as hell Day 1, and had a consistent townread on flipped scum that could easily have been scum defending a buddy.

[Protogonos]

It was just a question I want answered; it had nothing to do with hammering 32M.

[Protogonos]

wtf is is happening in this game?

[Protogonos]

That is what, the third quickhammer?

[Protogonos]

ROFL

[Protogonos]

Are you serious?

[Protogonos]

You should Vig tonight for sure since we would be at mylo tomorrow anyway. I would probs vig Guyett/FailHydra/Aronis.

[Protogonos]

Because Guyett got shwasted.

[Protogonos]

My flavor is Bilbo.

[Protogonos]

Who has the Ring?

[Protogonos]

I need to know who has the Ring. I know the person is town; that is part of my role. Will full-claim after.

[Protogonos]

I am Bilbo, Hobbit Burglar. Every night I get a chance to burgle another player. If that player has the Ring, I get it, along with some nondescript power that aids Town.

I tried to burgle reinoe N1 thinking that he was a 1x unkillable, thereby preventing a scum NK + Godfather procurement of the Ring, but he was actually dead. So...

N1: Target 32Mango
N2: Target Aronis
N3: Target snscompt1

None of them had the Ring. If Reinoe was serious about the Godfather getting the Ring, then we still have an unidentified GF, unless scum can pass the Ring to each other or reinoe was just lying about everything.

[Protogonos]

Oh, yeah. That was a just an attempt to root out scum with the wrong. I did not expect the ring person to reveal himself, but it was worth a shot.

[Protogonos]

Careful. It is a general rule for town not to lie. Ever. I disagree but this is MyLo and you hadnt claimed yet.

Why claim? That would just give scum their full pick of NK targets. Since I am 100% sure that scum has the Ring right now, keeping myself hidden gave the town the functional equivalent of two cops if Aronis is not lying.

Also, Proto, what made you choose those targets?

Really? They were each major scumreads. That should be pretty clear if you have been reading my posts.

When did Reinoe mention Godfather?

Nope. I guess I just assumed from "Hands of Sauron" or whatever.

[Protogonos]

My lie was benign. No one is ever confirmed scum unless mod-confirmed; the best you can get otherwise is a guaranteed lie. I fail to see how it was in poor taste.

reinoe stated that the Ring would fall into scum hands. That could have been BS, but I do not agree. Hence my assumption it was in scum hands.

[Protogonos]

How do people feel about a Guyett/Aronis scum pair?

[Protogonos]

Yes, I did not think that pair through. Agreed that Aronis' claim is fishy. But that basically means that scum are taking a risk in order to end the game today.

[Protogonos]

Aronis, snscompt1, please convince us based on play that

1) You are town
-or-
2) The other is scum

I am also like 99% sure that FH is scum, so I may actually be willing to lynch that hydra and postpone this decision until tomorrow.

[Protogonos]

I will review the two sides later today.

FH

: You are being ridiculous. This is mylo; hesitation to vote is clearly the prudent play.

[Protogonos]

Guyett, talk to me. Are you still thinking an Aronis/FH scumteam? Because I am kind of leaning in that direction right now as well. I will have to reevaluate Aronis' and sns' play. Probably by re-reading/skimming.

[Protogonos]

Hmm... I think I may actually want an FH lynch. Unless Rach is scum, FH is like for sure scum. That being said, I am not feeling so good about Aronis' claim. Plus the vanillaised, which excuses more claims that could help sort the game. Getting a guilty in mylo is also kind of sketch.

Spoiler:

Piggy's not here right now, so you're stuck with the treestump half of this Hydra for the moment. Sorry about that.

Proto gets scummier every time he opens his mouth.

Snscompt is in the wrong game if you dislike wall posts. One of the hydra heads is Mastin of all people. Voting people for wallposting is lulzy.

Not a fan of Guyett trying to pull people off of a floundering wagon just because it's floundering. I don't think Freja's right about Bulba, but telling them to get on the proto wagon simply because it's going places looks like scum trying to secure a second quicklynch. Mind you, it IS the proto wagon, so... guuh. Gonna go talk that over with piggy.

More at 11.

So I have bad news and good news.

I got vanillaized, but I still recieved results for last night.

All hail the Witch King of Angmar, the Undead Nazgul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: snscompt1

[Protogonos]

Actually, what is the disadvantage of NLing? Unless we think scum have an extra NK tonight, why risk mislyinching today?

[Protogonos]

VOTE: No lynch

[Protogonos]

So you think Aronis and FH are scum.... and you know I'm gonna die tonight... and town has mass claimed and there is no outed roles that are held by a trusted townie that might give some help to town... Like no lynch can ONLY FUCK OVER TOWN NOW!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for effectively claiming not town btw

How? Your vote is not necessary for town to win. If you die tonight, we can lynch someone tomorrow anyway. What possible advantage is there to lynching today? Do you have anything else you want to tell us? Are you secretly indispensable to victory?

[Protogonos]

Possibly increased clarity tomorrow.

[Protogonos]

Like its pretty obvious you aint town proto now. does your wincon align with towns?

I suspect proto is 3rd party... prob sauroman and his wincon involves getting the ring. His role claim is prob somewhat accurate... he visits people each night and if he finds the ring he wins.

What are you talking about? How could I possibly be third-party? I am not an SK; all NKs are accounted for. I am clearly not a Jester/other bastard role. I am not a survivor, otherwise I would have taken one of the many opportunities to end the game. Having a wincon depending on finding the Ring is basically a bastard role and is ridiculous anyway. I am town-aligned. I get additional powers if I obtain the Ring.

I really do not understand what the fuck is wrong with you people. There is absolutely no drawback to No Lynching. At worst, the lynch pool is reduced tomorrow. At best, we get more info. Your insistence on lynching today is completely irrational. Until you can articulate some benefit to lynching today, I see no reason to take an increased risk of mislynching.

How?
What will happen over night that will help town?
we still lose if a wrong decision is made!!!

Uh...Surely you can think of reasons, both general and specific to this game, that having an extra day and fewer lynch candidates would be helpful.

[Protogonos]

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing much town motivation in pushing for a no lynch when the only investigative role in the game is held by Aronis (I should say was as he claims to have been vanillirized) and he is one of the people being suspected for being scum.

Because there is literally no downside.

From my point of view it looks like you are only delaying things to try find the ring and we've already had someone who had an alignment change pon finding the ring... who's to say my suspicions aren't accurate.

Yep. Why would I not? It gives me a town-beneficial power. Plus, finding the Ring will mean scum has been identified, at least as far as I am aware. Scum would either have to kill me or kill a conftown double-voter. Remind me again why that is a bad scenario?

You say at worst the lynchpool is reduced tomorrow... NO IT FUCKING ISN'T!!! I'M NOT IN THE LYNCHPOOL!!!!!!

Then you are irrelevant anyway.

At best we get more info??? NO YOU MIGHT GET THE FUCKING RING!!! There is no other info to be got.

1) That would be info
2) Info extends beyond night actions

We had scum caught between 2 people and we won't be getting any info to make the decision any easier, I;ll just be dead twiddling my thumbs while you lot fuck around for another 2 weeks "making a decision". If I'm going to lose I want it to be on my own terms.

Right. So the actual issue here is that you want to stay alive. I get that. I really do. But I simply do not care.

[Protogonos]

Are you serious? Stahp. What are you doing?

P-Edit: thanks for not being stupid.

[Protogonos]

Here is me not hammering. One of Aronis/me is scum.

[Protogonos]

Walking through this...

Guyett is basically conftown. Aronis has three votes, with both snscompt1 and Guyett voting. If sns were scum with Rach, she would have hammered. If sns is scum with FH, then FH will just hammer anyway and there is nothing I can do.

So I think I should vote Aronis.

VOTE: Aronis

[Protogonos]

If he is not scum, I will probably shit myself in anger that town did not go with my No Lynch idea.

By the way, I am town. Not third-party. Town.

[Protogonos]

Were you town?

[Protogonos]

Then we have a strange scum pairing.

[Protogonos]

Exactly. I am town-aligned; I told you. We should have no lynched. Guyett, if you are town, then f u. No lynch is almost always the right play in lylo. Although maybe Guyett/sns?

[Protogonos]

UNVOTE:

[Protogonos]

VOTE: No lynch

[Protogonos]

You can all vote for whomever you want. I am not voting a single person for the rest of today unless someone hard-claims scum.

[Protogonos]

Or they can act rationally and NL.

[Protogonos]

Explain to me what possible drawbacks there are to NLing. Can you even articulate a single one?

[Protogonos]

Explain to me what possible drawbacks there are to NLing. Can you even articulate a single one?

[Protogonos]

That is not a drawback. Guyett's DV is only an asset if they are placed on scum. I have no problem losing them. Guyett is more than welcome to share his convictions and they can be factored into the decision-making tomorrow.

[Protogonos]

That is bullshit. Stop that. No one will hammer unless they are sure they are voting scum and that would only happen with all town agreeing.

So?

Youre purposing making town lose a voter and I know why. That way town cant lynch you eventually. Your ruse isnt good. If anyone besides Proto would like me to explain more I will, but Im pretty sure you can see it too.

My wincon is strictly town. I am not third-party. I do not really give a shit whether you believe me, because you have no persuasive power over me whatsoever. You seem to think that I can be coerced or compelled or bullied. That is not the case. I was willing to hammer Aronis. After the ensuing shitshow, I am no longer willing to end this day with a lynch. You are more than welcome to convince Rach or FH to vote Aronis if his lynch is so important to you.

Proto is no lynching to win for himself.

Insofar as I am town and am acting in town's best interest, yes.

Fine. But that means he isnt scum. Which means Rach, Fail Hydra and Aronis are. Rach didnt hammer Aronis or me so she isnt scum. Guys FH and Aronis are confscum. I dont understand what is so hard about this. Please tell me why all the hesitation.

If they are confscum, it should not be difficult to secure their lynches tomorrow.

Wait. Proto, you said town gets a benefit if you get the ring? Im not sure if I believe that seeing how bilbo turned out in the books but that I can understand for no lynching. You couldve just said that. But trust us, Aronis is scum and yoy said he doesnt have the ring, so just burgle fail hydra. Ta da. We all win. Is that not viable?

Because I am not 100% convinced that Aronis is scum.

If I am alive tomorrow, then I will have more information than I do now. If I am not alive tomorrow, Guyett will be alive and you have the three votes you need to lynch Aronis anyway. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to vote anyone today.

[Protogonos]

Finally. A straight answer. You dont think Aronis is 100% scum.

That is not "a straight answer." Even if I thought Aronis was 100% scum I would still want a NL. Because anything other than mod confirmation or setup-breaking is not 100%.

You arguing that it doesnt matter if Guyett dies was crap. Damn. Seriously, why couldnt you have said that?

Because it would have been a lie. The reason I want to NL is that we are not a lylo. That is the only thing that matters to me.

[Protogonos]

You are more than welcome to get Rach and sns to vote with you to lynch Aronis.

[Protogonos]

Or FH, for that matter.

[Protogonos]

Aronis...?

[Protogonos]

Why would Rach bus FH instead of hammering a townie yesterday? How does that make any sense?

[Protogonos]

Woah. Ninja'd.

Also, the same applies to Guyett. And myself, of course.

[Protogonos]

You again. In restrospect, I should have gone after Guyett.

[Protogonos]

Aronis.

[Protogonos]

Why would Rach bus FH instead of hammering a townie yesterday? How does that make any sense?

Was she on when she could've hammered someone? Maybe she was aware that Guyett wasn't voting me and didn't want to risk it. Idk. Unless you're scum, it's the only possibility.

Yes. As far as she knew, Guyett had both votes on you. It still does not make sense that she would strongly push for her buddy when she could easily have jumped on your wagon. No sense. At all. In any way.

Also, you lied about your result yesterday. Unless a scum redirector redirected onto scum, which makes very little sense.

[Protogonos]

Anyway, I am not voting for anyone except you, Aronis, so you may as well vote for a No Lynch and hope that I decide to play it safe.

[Protogonos]

Too bad sns flipped and he was not the King of Angmar.

[Protogonos]

Maybe you're scum? That's always a possibility. You did hammer me after all.

Except it was not a hammer, you are still alive, and I did not want to lynch anyone yesterday at all. You were a compromise. And I said several times that I would rather have lynched FH, which is ultimately what happened.

[Protogonos]

I think that you and FH overplayed your hand. I think that you two wanted to end the game yesterday with a fake guilty. I think that you are now flailing.

[Protogonos]

So you knew it wasn't a hammer? I thought you didn't?

You said I hammered. That is not true. I thought I did, but that is a different issue altogether.

[Protogonos]

VOTE: No Lynch

[Protogonos]

Why would I not?

[Protogonos]

UNVOTE:

[Protogonos]

I think Guyett is the last scum.

[Protogonos]

Guyett, what is my alignment and what are my night abilities?

[Protogonos]

Know? What do you

think

?

[Protogonos]

So you believe that there is a redirector?

[Protogonos]

Guyett, please remove your vote from me.

[Protogonos]

Guyett, please tell me your honest believe of my alignment.

[Protogonos]

It is to me. Am I town, third-party, or scum? Can I kill or recruit at night?

[Protogonos]

I want an answer from Guyett.

[Protogonos]

I already did

[Protogonos]

And what was the outcome of each night action?

I do not have the Ring, so...nothing was found in each case.

[Protogonos]

I still would like you to answer my question.

[Protogonos]

Great. Scum is Aronis.

I was asking to see whether it made any sense whatsoever for Guyett to act like he did yesterday (fake-hammering Aronis, bussing FH, etc.). It does not really make any sense for Guyett to do that as scum, but I thought it may make some sense if he was worried about my being third-party. That does not seem to be the case.

The last scum is Aronis. The scumteam clearly chose not to or failed to use the Vanillaiser and decided to play aggressively in mylo, hoping to secure a mislynch via the guilty claim. Which is exactly how I won a scumgame recently.

On the off chance the Rach is scum, she deserves this win for hardcore bussing yesterday, not hammering Aronis, etc.



And just so we are clear, my being scum would mean

both

that I am actually a burglar attempting to get the Ring (unless this is somehow an elaborate fakeclaim)

and

a redirector

and

someone who can NK. Which...I guess is technically possible, but not particularly likely.

[Protogonos]

Is there some hurry? Would you like me to vote him now?

[Protogonos]

VOTE: Aronis

It is lylo. We are dealing with a very small number of players. It is my consistent policy not to vote in lylo until there is already a consensus. Why do I adhere to such a policy? I have lost several games as town in the last year because of players voting (me, incidentally) within two posts of the beginning of the lylo day.

Perhaps you could clarify why such a risk is ever appropriate. Maybe around when you explain why lynching someone in mylo makes more sense than NLing.

[Protogonos]

Proto who is your main if you don't mind me asking?

I do. I created this as a secret alt. If you are seriously planning to hammer me, I will reveal my main. But please do not fake me out.

I have a high tempo play style and I don't really like to wait around too much with stuff. The way I saw things yesterday is we had a mass claim and there were no investigative roles in play there was a conf town who is usually NK target.

It made no sense to me to delay a decision that would have to be made and tbh if I am to lose by town mislynching I kind of want to be at fault for it and not leave the game up to others.

Sure, but that reasoning is all about you.

However it is strange that Proto is voting him despite apparently not finding a ring on him. If aronis is scum he should have the ring. Surely Proto's 'investigation' would have cleared Aronis.

Not if the Ring is out of play, which seems to be the case. My guess is that the Ring is gone forever, either because it disappeared with a Ringbearer dying, or it is permanently in scum's possession.

Also he was happy to push a lynch on the 1 v 1 between aronis and sns but didn't want to lynch FH.

What are you talking about? I had no problem lynching FH; in fact, I stated as much in this post. I was initially more willing to lynch FH than Aronis or sns because there was no way he was not scum. My thought process thereabout was completely transparent. To say that I pushed a 1v1 between Aronis and sns is simply revisionist history with absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever. I cannot help it that you all quickhammered FH when I was asleep. And you are more than welcome to compare my interactions with FH with those of Aronis and FH. Let me know who comes out looking worse.

[Protogonos]

I would feel the same if I was a non confirmed townie and there was another conf townie. I know when to no lynch in MyLo and when not to. I don't agree with no lynching in mylo just for the sake of it.

As it turns out

I was right, you 'investigated' Aronis and nothing new would have happened. I'd have been dead and FH would still be alive. You'd all probably have continued to push the 1v1 between Aronis and sns.

I was the one who wanted to delay Aronis v. sns by lynching FH. Rach would have absolutely been on board. But this is not immediately productive, so feel free to respond, but I will bite my tongue with great force until endgame.

And the point of my line of questioning about your opinion of my alignment was to solidify my read. If you were convinced I was third-party, you may not want to kill a townie. Now, bussing your partner would not be smart either, but given that scum either (if Aronis) lied about a guilty in mylo or (if I) covered up a redirector role with a completely different and flavor-themed role, I was not expecting pure rationality.

Have I played with you before?

No.

So I fully understand why you're lynching me. But how are Protos 'results' any better? We went around and nobody had the ring, so scum was probably lying. Yet he has tried to take it from me twice and I don't have it, so with one scum left, it's almost the equivalent of an Innocent result.

That requires the Ring to still be in play and in scum's possession, which it may not be: it could be lost, it could be permanently in the hands of scum, Guyett/Rach could be concealing it for some bad and inscrutable reason (only the first two are really likely IMO). Your attempting to clear yourself in such a manner is hella scummy, and the fact that you are pushing for my lynch as the remaining scum while attempting to use my alleged night result as a clear on yourself if revealing.

So Day 1

after

reinoe kills himself, in twilight. Proto comes in and is valiantly defending him as if he knows reinoe will flip town. However, he didn't comment on the lynch before or while it was happening.

Uh...yeah. He was lynched before I even checked the thread.

Later (#668) he states that he is functionally the equivalent of a second cop

if scum have the ring

. If he's telling the truth, then he pretty much got an innocent result on me, yet he's still voting me, so he must have gotten the wrong results too or something.

You should know better than to try to pass the bullshit off as an argument. I made all of my claims and night action statements very deliberately, especially in the

conditional

context that scum actually have the Ring, which we do not know for sure. My results could be completely accurate and they still would not clear you. Because I do not

know

that scum do have the Ring, and I, with an even greater degree of certainty, think that you are scum.

Yesterday he avidly pushed for a No Lynch or trying to sort out me and sns, but didn't seem to keen on lynching FH despite being sure they were scum.

"Didn't seem too keen?" Did I ever oppose an FH lynch? Where was your push? When you said he was your top-priority night target but conveniently picked sns instead (in which post, by the way, you also label me "conftown")? Or was it when you were unwilling to lynch him because sns was "conf scum?" Well, I guess you would have been willing to lynch FH "tomorrow," except that that would conveniently

never have come

because sns was town.

Maybe your trajectory on other players is better...why don't you just humor us with your amazing trajectories on Rach/myself in the last two game days.

After the fake lynch, he then refuses to vote for another person, effectively dodging the FH wagon.

What the fuck are you talking about? I checked out at post 854 and went to bed. The timestamp on the post was 1:54am, in case you were wondering. I woke up to a locked thread. Besides, where the fuck were you? At least I expressed actual intent and willingness to lynch FH that game day.




Guyett/Rach, let me know if you need actual an actual case against Aronis. I think Aronis has incriminated himself sufficiently to make the choice obvious, but whatever. And as a quick guide, here are your viable options (Rach as bussing-instead-of-hammering-FTW scum is not one):

1) Aronis scum. Coordinated guilty on sns with FH using FH's role, hoping to end the game in mylo definitely with a cop guilty. Slipped by revealing additional non-flavor info (or not; irrelevant, really). I am what I say I am.

2) Protogonos scum. Aronis is truly a flavorcop. I must then be a redirector who happened to redirect sns onto FH or something equivalent instead of just outright killing Aronis, the only player who could actually identify my scumteam, or Vanillaising him. My fakeclaim is that I can burgle the Ring. This makes sense to claim as scum for ~~reasons~~, and is also the obvious fakeclaim to choose despite the fact that it is completely irrelevant and bizarre because of ~~reasons~~.

[Protogonos]

You, duh.

[Protogonos]

Well, I guess it could be Rach.

[Protogonos]

But that seems very unlikely, and against her meta completely. GJ to her if she is.

[Protogonos]

Wait, seriously?

[Protogonos]

me

If you are, why would you waste everyone's time?

[Protogonos]

I knew I should have investigated you last night. =/

[Protogonos]

What? ? ? Why didn't you kill me yesterday then?

Or not hammer at any point yesterday or today?

[Protogonos]

If you are actually scum, IDK if I would want to play with you again. There was literally no point to extending this game for as long as you did, and it was strictly against your wincon, which would have necessitated ending the game ASAP.

[Protogonos]

[Protogonos]

No; it was you.

[Protogonos]

We can wait for the flip, then. And if Rach is scum, then I will be much more aggressive against her in future games since she would have clearly revamped her meta. And apparently has no problem bussing partners instead of hammering FTW; again, the wincon dissonance is just too much for me to consider credible.

[Protogonos]

I honestly thought that after D1 bulba & aronis will be SPEEDFUCKINGLYNCHED. I couldn't believe how you guys ignored the fact that they got him to L-2 and 1 AFTER his powerful claim...

I was scumreading Bulb and Aronis kind off. But then I got sidetracked by 32M after the horrible Drew quicklynch. I would have pushed for Bulb hardcore Day 4 had he not been vigged.

[Protogonos]

And I still maintain that NLing was the right play both of those days.

[Protogonos]

I am clearly more risk-averse than you are.

[Protogonos]

Except that additional players require good judgment to be positive utility. Fortunately, that was the case this game.

[Protogonos]

And clearly Guyett's conftown status was not enough to get him NKed after FH was lynched, so you never know. And we could have NLed instead of lynching FH. That would have been interesting as well.