In post 222, snscompt1 wrote:Havent read any of this page yet but dear lord, I will kill the next person to post a wall of text.
Well isn't it rather obvious that he lied? After all, nothing terrible has happened and he hasn't came back to life.In post 219, Freja wrote:I'm hella tired so if something doesn't make sense gramatically let me know and I'll rewrite it tomorrow.
It wasn't a sure thing. Wagons never are that early in the first day. Obviously Reinoe panicked and self-voted, but that doesn't mean any of the votes up to that point weren't scum motivated. I don't find the impulse to drive up Reinoe after his claim to L-1 to be particularly town motivated,In post 211, Bulbazak wrote:That sounds good in theory, but it rarely works in practice. Scum could also recognize the wagon as a sure thing and have allowed town to push it through, which has a high chance of happening given the way he claimed.especiallygiven that not many people even had a chance to comment on what happened after this was done. Reinoe had enough pressure on him already.
um....In post 211, Bulbazak wrote:Because they only came forward to defend him AFTER the fact. And they were defending him HARD, which doesn't make sense given the nature of his claim and actions. Town at this point would either be berating Reinoe, or anxiously waiting the flip. Some of them would maybe even be trying to get some discussion in twilight. Defending Reinoe as town at that point, especially given his strong anti-town actions, comes across as an attempt to gain towncred after a town flip.
1) as said above, not many people had the chance to comment before the events to occur. A few hadn't even posted yet.
2) I'm sorry, but when someone claims FRODO w/ a potential "I give scum power if killed" thing (something pretty typical in LOTR games--ordinarily you would be right that this is someone flailing,but not in a LOTR game), you stop and think about the options.
3) anti-town does not equal scum
4) You seem to be making the case that Reinoe was sooooo obvscum that any town would be voting him. That is a subjective belief. As far as I'm concerned, not even a scum claim should result in a quicklynch on like...page 5.
5) Both of us have played with Reinoe before and derpiness is something you come to expect from his town game.
6) Bottom line, you and Aronis, just like Reinoe, reacted on impulse. He'd be an easy lynch. You can say "how scummy" Reinoe was as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that scum tend to be pretty greedy. They'll jump on as soon as they have the opportunity on a wagon like Reinoe's. Why? They can claim he was "so scummy lolz" and that we should just "forget about D1 entirely because of him!!!!" (thanks for that one, Aronis. +10 more scumpoints for you).
I'll have to work it out with Dr Pants in terms of the 1 scum on thing. The fact that not many people had the chance to say much on this complicates my ability to read it on that particular note. I agree that scum rarely all do one action--and they also rarely play the same game approach (how many games have you seen when the scum were all lurkers or all hyper-active posters?). Disagree that it would be a wagon scum would want to avoid because, as you've said whilst defended yourself, they can just say "omgggg is so scummy how'd you not think so? Oh you must be SCUM!!!!"In post 211, Bulbazak wrote:I think his wagon was mostly town. If there was any scum on the wagon, I would say there was no more than one. Again, that's a wagon that scum would want to avoid once it started rolling, as town would do the work for them. I do think that at least one of Reinoe's heavy defenders are scum, and since I have a townread on you, that leaves Proto. It should be noted that scum rarely all do a certain action.
What distinguishes our defense of Reinoe from Proto's?
In post 211, Bulbazak wrote:I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.you really think load of horse manure is simply "born from frustration?"In post 210, Aronis wrote:I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?
On Reinoe's claim: Again, there have been LOTR games with ring mechanics before. I think I even played a game when the Ring won by itself somehow. I do not think town Reinoe would lie about the fact that he had a ring that could potentially give power to the scum team. I don't think it be such a far stretch that the Ring could be something a player can possess. meh, I'll stop with the flavour theorizing.
Do you mean killed out of fear as in "this guy is going to come after me" fear or "omg this guy's good lets get him out early" fear.In post 212, Toogeloo wrote:ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?
PEDIT:
@mango: number wise, do you think more scum are on or off the wagon?
-ToastyToast
I think this was RVS, so not much to make of it.
So this post produced the first serious vote on reinoe and it sorta looked fake imo, like he was doing something helpful when he wasn't really.In post 66, reinoe wrote:Aronis, I like it. Helps differentiate between fluff and serious stuff...
UNVOTE: FailHydra
So that I can help better understand players and their play styles here are some questions directed to the entire town.
How Do You Make Your Scum list? Do you rank your scum or are they all interchangeable?
When I make a scum list the people on said list are officially interchangeable. The common rule is that your scum list should have as many people as there are scum. However since my scum list includes people who are interchangeable I'll usually have fewer in my scum list than the estimated number of scum.
Do You Vote without a reason in order to gauge reactions or do you like giving a reason for your votes?
I hardly ever vote without a reason and I think too many votes without a reason is scummy.
What was your last completed game and what did you learn from it?
My last completed game was Newbie 1485. I learned that as long as you're scumhunting you'll attract negative attention because sometimes someone will find it scummy. Also it's very hard to differentiate between town flail and scum flail, but scum flail is when someone tries to discredit the person or people attacking them while townflail will try to create a trail so that when they're mislynched there's a documented record. I have no idea how to tell the difference yet but maybe someone else will.
Do You Value "consistency" or is that irrelevant to you?
I find "consistency" to be quite important. I've stumbled across people here and there saying "consistency" is scummy but there is no way I can see hypocrisy as acceptable from town. I guess I still take this game a little too seriously.
This post still doesn't make any sense, I think I can sorta see where he is coming from, but the wording is off. Anyways, our beloved king is dead, oh well.
So a couple questions for you.In post 71, Toogeloo wrote:Leaning Town on The Three Amangos and Bulba. Leaning scum on reinoe, and thinking FailHydra is his partner at the moment.
Unvote;
Vote: reinoe
Based on his interpretation of the wagon, it's awful. And if two votes are really RVS and he is only at L-3, why doesn't ue wait and see what happens before claiming? And unkillable is a really rare role, I may have bought bp, but that's prob not real 90% imo.In post 72, reinoe wrote:I'm in no mood to fight a flashwagon that consists of:
a vote based on confirming that the game is starting,
an RVS vote,
a possible misinterpretation of the English Language,
and I don't even know what Toogeloos vote is about but whatev
Claiming now.
Frodo baggins
Town Aligned Hobbit Ringbearer
1x unkillable
If I'm killed the ring falls into the hands of sauron and the town faces a penalty.
An interesting response and what many people seemed to have thought, including myself.
In post 76, Bulbazak wrote:This is the only thing making me doubt my Aronis scumread.In post 66, reinoe wrote:Aronis, I like it. Helps differentiate between fluff and serious stuff...
I also think the questions are more attempts to look like he's doing something, rather than actually doing something.
No, your scum list should consist of the people you are reading as scum. Arbitrarily assigning a certain amount of people to the scum list just so that it matches the actual amount of scum is fake scumhunting.In post 66, reinoe wrote: The common rule is that your scum list should have as many people as there are scum.
Not telling. That would ruin any attempts at pressure in the future.In post 66, reinoe wrote:
Do You Vote without a reason in order to gauge reactions or do you like giving a reason for your votes?
I've seen hypocrisy from town. It all comes down to judging intent.In post 66, reinoe wrote: I've stumbled across people here and there saying "consistency" is scummy but there is no way I can see hypocrisy as acceptable from town.
Why is FH scum?In post 71, Toogeloo wrote:Leaning Town on The Three Amangos and Bulba. Leaning scum on reinoe, and thinking FailHydra is his partner at the moment.
In post 72, reinoe wrote:I'm in no mood to fight a flashwagon that consists of:
a vote based on confirming that the game is starting,
an RVS vote,
a possible misinterpretation of the English Language,
and I don't even know what Toogeloos vote is about but whatev
Claiming now.
Frodo baggins
Town Aligned Hobbit Ringbearer
1x unkillable
If I'm killed the ring falls into the hands of sauron and the town faces a penalty.
This smells like BS.
Unvote
Vote Reinoe
I put him at L-1 because of his ludicrous claim.In post 77, Aronis wrote:VOTE: reinoe
Sorry, not buying it. But hey, if we are wrong at least you don't die!
And then he self hammers which is just sad and pathetic and evil. Still mad about it.
Mind restating it very succinctly, so there is no confusion?In post 221, Bulbazak wrote:That was never my argument for you being scum.In post 215, Protogonos wrote: And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.
And none of your outlines was in the least bit compelling, since they relied on associating particular actions with scum for no reason whatsoever. The wagon was shit and the reasoning was shit. I have not even played that many games, and I have never had a reinoe-esque breakdown come from scum. Furthermore, I have never seen someone lynched after an "obvious fakeclaim" flip scum.It really was not, and I outlined why several times.
Not in my experience. In my experience, any halfway decent player would have leaped off that wagon as soon as they claim occurred.Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right.
Reinoe did not put himself at L-1. Putting of the blame on him is a transparent attempt at revisionist history. That wagon was hella scummy, not only because someone was at a serious L-1 when some of the players had not even posted yet.You could have disagreed with the quicklynch, but then you'd have to assign blame to Reinoe, but that didn't gel with your agenda to venerate him.
W/e.This is not a town reaction.
I mean more along the lines that some players have played with each other enough to know their town play and scum play. Some one who is scum knew that ProHawk would recognize their scum play.In post 219, Freja wrote:Do you mean killed out of fear as in "this guy is going to come after me" fear or "omg this guy's good lets get him out early" fear.
I still think Bulba is town.In post 232, Aronis wrote:So a couple questions for you.
What do you think about Bulba after that? And what are your thoughts on FailHydra after reinoe flipped town?
Nor do I, really.In post 236, ThreetoMango wrote:Mastin will be sort of V/LA til I don't know when.
To be fair, I wouldn't say Reinoe quickhammering was a "definite possibility". Town has no reason to hammer themselves, so I see it more as a vague possibility than a definite one.In post 190, Freja wrote:you are responsible for putting a PRish claim to L-1 knowing a quickhammer was a definite possibility. Don't hide under the fact that Reinoe was derpy and quickhammered.
I'm fairly certain I preambled my case with the words "gut" and "speculation." The posts you made after made me feel even better about my vote. You have a feigned irateness, just look at your posts now during Day 2... Asking the opening votes for reasons and saying how much you hate the game state and wanting to be proactive, and yet.... no proactivity on your behalf.In post 238, RachMarie wrote:Let me get this straight Toog, your entire case on me being scum is because of my RVS vote which because of the stupidness yesterday I did not get a chance to come in and post and change to a real vote on someone? And that person I had my RVS on died last night which is major WIFOM if I ever saw it.
Pretty weak case
Read very carefully: "quickhammer" =/= "self-hammer"In post 239, ThreetoMango wrote:To be fair, I wouldn't say Reinoe quickhammering was a "definite possibility". Town has no reason to hammer themselves, so I see it more as a vague possibility than a definite one.In post 190, Freja wrote:you are responsible for putting a PRish claim to L-1 knowing a quickhammer was a definite possibility. Don't hide under the fact that Reinoe was derpy and quickhammered.
- Dice
At least I'm not Dragon.In post 222, snscompt1 wrote:Havent read any of this page yet but dear lord, I will kill the next person to post a wall of text.
Why would you be voting ignorant town?In post 231, snscompt1 wrote:Youre digging yourself into a hole just fine in my opinion. My vote is mostly because you just used a wall but also because right now youre either ignorant town or scum.
Not saying. If you role fish again, you're back on my crap list.In post 232, Aronis wrote:Btw, Bulbazak what do you think/know about Guyett that you hinted at yesterday?
Mostly your reactions in twilight. I found your anger and frustration in twilight to be genuine and indicative of town, since scum would be laying low imo.
I'm really not following you here.In post 232, Aronis wrote: I'd almost think Three Amangos was the scum[if any] on the wagon. They voted first on it, then seemed content to watch him get lynched.
You came in and hard defended Reinoe as town AFTER he was already hammered. During this time you espoused Reinoe as town during a time when that wasn't known and the evidence provided didn't seem likely. You also set up enough lynches to get a 3 person scum team to Lylo, even though there was no indication that Reinoe would flip town. You essentially took it as a certainty when that knowledge hadn't been provided yet, and it looked more like an attempt to garner towncred and manipulate the town more than anything town motivated.In post 233, Protogonos wrote:Mind restating it very succinctly, so there is no confusion?In post 221, Bulbazak wrote:That was never my argument for you being scum.In post 215, Protogonos wrote: And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.
I'm so sorry that no one consulted you Mr. Expert with zero on-site games of experience. The reasoning for the lynch was sound. Reinoe had claimed Unkillable, which is not just a rare role, but a bastard one, which makes it almost impossible to appear in the game. He then followed it up with an appeal to fear of "Don't kill me guys or something bad will happen to the town!" which is the type of statement flailing scum make when desperate to avoid death. Furthermore, that statement doesn't gel with the unkillable claim he had just made. You know what else doesn't mesh with that claim? The self-hammer. If Reinoe's role was what he had claimed it to be, he'd at least be trying to fight the lynch as hard as he could, or at the very least, he'd be asking for our protective role to be on him during the night. We didn't get any of that from him. Instead he self-hammered and then acted all self-righteous, something that doesn't make sense coming from town. True, he was town, but he certainly didn't look like it at the time.In post 233, Protogonos wrote:And none of your outlines was in the least bit compelling, since they relied on associating particular actions with scum for no reason whatsoever. The wagon was shit and the reasoning was shit. I have not even played that many games, and I have never had a reinoe-esque breakdown come from scum. Furthermore, I have never seen someone lynched after an "obvious fakeclaim" flip scum.It really was not, and I outlined why several times.
And I'm sure that worked fine on the trading card forums you are from, but this is Mafiascum. You're playing in the big leagues now.In post 233, Protogonos wrote:Not in my experience. In my experience, any halfway decent player would have leaped off that wagon as soon as they claim occurred.Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right.
And he was at L-1 for good reason. And as I've said multiple times, he was in no danger of getting any further votes, because cutting the day short is anti-town. He probably would have sat at L-1 to L-2 for at least a week and a half before we would even think about hammering, providing that our pressure of him didn't actually reveal that he was town. And even if someone did quickhammer, we'd most likely be lynching that person today. The fact of the matter is that Reinoe was not in danger of a quicklynch when he hammered, which is why your attempt at putting the blame elsewhere is extremely scummy, since again, you are trying to exalt Reinoe in an effort to paint yourself as more town.In post 233, Protogonos wrote: Reinoe did not put himself at L-1. Putting of the blame on him is a transparent attempt at revisionist history. That wagon was hella scummy, not only because someone was at a serious L-1 when some of the players had not even posted yet.
