Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[PeregrineV]

Vote: burn209

Virgos are just too scary.

[PeregrineV]

VOTE: PeregrinV because my the random horoscope site I went to said we were compatible and I'm afraid of commitment. (The squiggly lines is Aquariaus, right? Aquarius...Aquairiiiiiuuuus~)

~STD

My first serious girlfriend was Gemini. She was hot and cold, yes, and no, in and out, up and down.

[PeregrineV]

How is Scorpio a water sign? Oh wait that's because we are the best sign there is

I disagree, Aries is the best sign. We're the first sign of the Zodiac. That makes us the best,

and

the starting point of the Zodiac. For bonus points, I'm a cusp of Aries and Pisces. But I'm more Aries than Pisces, hear me roar. I do like fish.

@ Xayzeck Why should we wagon with you? Or are you wanting the wagon on you?

VOTE: Xayzeck

My dad is Aries.
My wife is Aries.

You guys have horrible tones of voice.

Vote:Witness Protection

[PeregrineV]

I think I'm going blind.

[PeregrineV]

Fake dayvigs happen all the time. I'd worry more about reactions than if Iecerint is really dead.

Normally, yes. But 3.

[PeregrineV]

Aquarians present themselves in one of two ways. One on hand, you’ll see someone who is shy, and quiet. On the other, an Aquarian can be boisterous, eccentric, and energetic. Both are deep thinkers with a love of helping others. Highly intellectual, this is a sign of fierce independence that prizes intuition tempered with logic. Both personality types have an uncanny ability to see both sides of an argument without prejudice, making them excellent problem-solvers. While very much attuned to the energies around them, Aquarians have a deep need to take time out alone and away to rejuvenate themselves. The keyword for this sign is imagination. The Aquarian can see a world of possibilities even when there appears to be none.

Aquarius' lucky numbers today: 38, 20, 16, 45, 3, 41

"Someone has to die in order that the rest of us should value life more." - Virginia Woolf

Oh yeah, that's me all right.

[PeregrineV]

Still, though, why do you think a dayvig would happen so fast on Day 1?

To avoid the second guessing and recriminations and arguing about how it should be used. It's not how I prefer to do it, but it happens.

[PeregrineV]

Actually, I don't want to approach that comment in a questioning, wait for you to reach the answer I already have way. I want to point something out:

Opposite Alignment Empowered - If the player that receives this is town, the scumteam may choose one fortunate horoscope. If the player that receives this is scum, the scumteam may not kill anyone during the next night phase.

Scum have two horoscopes (dayvig in scumhands, this horoscope in townhands) that award them an extra kill. They have two tries at said extra kill per day. You think that RedCoyote gave scum some day redirector power role to deal with vig power in town hands... why?

I thought I read but looks like I skimmed because I missed this.

[PeregrineV]

Actually, I don't want to approach that comment in a questioning, wait for you to reach the answer I already have way. I want to point something out:

Opposite Alignment Empowered - If the player that receives this is town, the scumteam may choose one fortunate horoscope. If the player that receives this is scum, the scumteam may not kill anyone during the next night phase.

Scum have two horoscopes (dayvig in scumhands, this horoscope in townhands) that award them an extra kill. They have two tries at said extra kill per day. You think that RedCoyote gave scum some day redirector power role to deal with vig power in town hands... why?

I thought I read but looks like I skimmed because I missed this.

OK, that was one of the unfortunate horoscopes. I kind of skimmed those because yeah.

And don't see the harm in it, but I got the Bad Fortune #9 mentioned for today. That's all it said, so I'm assuming nothing bad happens.

[PeregrineV]

OK, Nacho, you can might be town. For now.

[PeregrineV]

unless there are cults, my towniness is here to stay
additionally, you aren't voting salamence with us

Meh. Just for you. For now.

Vote: Salamaence20

[PeregrineV]

Deeply intuitive and sentimental, Cancer can be one of the most challenging Zodiac signs to get to know. Emotion runs strong for this sign, and when it comes to family and home, nothing is more important. Sympathetic and empathetic, Cancerians are greatly attuned to those around them. Devotion is the keyword for this sign, making them wonderfully sensitive people to be around.

Cancer's lucky numbers today: 14, 29, 17, 12, 24, 46

That's me! And 12 is a very special number for me. Neat.

My brother is a Cancer, and while I could see about half of this, the other half must be buried DEEP DEEP DEEP.

[PeregrineV]

One of these days I'm going to post out of hydra :/

I'm far from the most eloquent of speakers.

My problem is this:

Dry-fit comes into thread attacking people who talk about the day-vig.

When asked why, he says scum usually talk about setup/role stuff on day 1.

When asked why strategizing is a scum tell, he says scum are most likely to talk about strategy, and hypothesizing that it may be due to rolefishing, or trying to look protown.

Since the dayvig is independant of role, half of his argument as to "I think these people are scummy because of this tell" doesn't even apply.

To me that reads as fake scum hunting. An argument that seems forced to me lands him on a wagon.

At the same time I do acknowledge the whole "this person's only content is related to game mechanics, it could be scum trying to look useful." I'm fine with that, though less so since halfway through day 3 I'm not really sure what else we're suppose to talk about except for this interesting dayvig that has fallen in someone's lap.

I don't really want his head on a platter at the moment (like I wouldn't dayvig him right this instant har har) but I don't think that the twins have a better place to park our vote.

Does that clarify or obfuscate things further?

~STD

I like this post too. I think setup spec is pro-town, because town tries to figure out what scum already knows (who is town, and who is scum, and what tools does each have). I think obsessive setup spec or excessive theory are scummy, since they then become substitutes for scumhunting.

Right now the dayvig should be the topic, since it's relevant, but either of the 2 ideas (extra lynch, or shoot at will) are fine. One will require votes and reasons and such, the other will result in accolades or scrutiny depending on the shot.

[PeregrineV]

About my "lurking": nacho states that I have been in other threads and purposefully ignoring this one. That isn't true. Two days ago I got into a fight on this site which had me pissed and fuming. I'm not going into the details of this fight, but it ended with me replacing out of all current games except two (this one and a micro) and my modded game. My modding duties come first before any game. The other game I haven't posted in awhile, and this one, where I came to say that. I needed a little bit of time to cool down. Any posts made around then were a) me replacing out or b) my modded game. I'm back now and I'm a little confused on why I'm brought to L-1 this early and also on the notion of dayvig speculation. Which reminds me...

About dayvig speculation: I love the dayvig, it's my favorite role in all of mafia. That's why I asked who had my dayvig in my RVS. I then said the dayvig should out on PG 2, for the sake of town controlling the shot, something that has been mentioned by other players as well. The argument against this was "mafia controls the shot if Dayvig outs." How so? There are more townies than mafia. If town holds the shot, we play normal and shoot the person we want to lynch, then get another lynch. Even if mafia disagree on our shot target and try to manipulate the shot, they are the minority. If 8-9 players want to shoot player A and 4-5 players want to shoot player B, A dies regardless of the number of scum on the other wagon to shoot. So i don't see the problem. If mafia holds the shot and refuses to shoot the player the majority wants, chances are the dayvig is scum defending a scumbuddy or WIFOM. We lynch the dayvig if they refuse. How is this scummy? Hell, STD stated the same thing I did about the dayvig.

Oh it's because I didn't scumhunt on the first 3 pages.

Im sorry.

I always try to get us out of RVS. It is pro-town, regardless of my actual alignment.

In terms of actual reading, Nacho is town regardless of his misreading of me, he is scumhunting early and like I said earlier, scumhunting and getting us out of RVS is always protown. SC slightly less, but still. Gemini is looking good too, based on the fact that I feel like STD would love to hop on my wagon based on my personality.

On the other side of things, I don't like Xay. All three votes of his have been bandwagons on Iec, WP, and myself, respectively. It just seems like trying to hiding behind the crowd on a mislynch.

Out of all the people on my wagon, Xay's and PV's votes are the worse. PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning. I think more pressure need to be put onto PV, Xay, or both.

UNVOTE: Burn
VOTE: PV

I'll be on for the rest of the night, so if you have questions or so, hit me.

Am I sheeping scumNacho?

[PeregrineV]

Prod dodge if needed. Post later

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ToastyToast

[PeregrineV]

@PV: No, not quite. Try again.

Just a single question.

You said:

PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning.

I said:

Am I sheeping scumNacho?

If the answer is no, then I'm sheeping townNacho. And that's good enough at the time.

[PeregrineV]

Every time I have been lynched as scum, my wagon has been incredibly fast because I'm usually pretty successful in fighting it off otherwise: remember how quickly I was lynched in Event Card?

Even that took too long.

Speed of wagon becomes more relevant when reads are stronger, both for the wagon and the wagon composition.

[PeregrineV]

Idk, it dont really matter since i have no qualms moving to Xay. But I cant read Xay because he always has this "I dunno what ur talking about, Im town" feel that makes it hard to accurately read him.

PV though. He should know better

What should I know better?

[PeregrineV]

This would be where I have to disagree with you a little, because I feel meta is a great tool for scumhunting, but only if you've played with the person. I don't think you can meta someone you have never played with, whereas if you play with the person a lot, meta reads make more sense.

What Elsye did is she started out with a (i think sort of)scumread on me, which was bad enough as it is because she never explained how it was scum indicative, and then dismissed it herself through metatells(maybe because of Nacho), yet keeps her vote on me(maybe because of Sala).

You seem to be asking me why I care about her meta? That isn't the case, I'm curious as to how she arrived to "It's probably playstyle/personality" which is a metatell she's using on me to nullify the scumread she has on me(not sure if nullify is the correct word here, since she has expressed that PV could be scum yet hasn't moved her vote, so i'm scummier than PV? idk).

There's so little effort to read me here, and so much of looking good to good players while still staying on a small, supported, safe wagon, which I think to be scum.

I'm just sheeping Nacho at the moment because Elyse doesn't have much support(to be fair i didn't really push for it), plus I don't mind a Sala lynch(for now at least).

You said that I was asking for meta in general was more forgivable? I'm not sure I understand, because I don't recall asking for her meta? I do recall asking her if she meta'd me though, but I get the feeling that's not what you understood.

In any event, my job is not to be a playstyle critic. I do seem to have misunderstood you (I do have some legitimate concerns about Elyse), and in any event you are not on my scumlist.

I see an FoS, and a vote based on some sort of interaction between two other players, but I can't seem to discern your scumlist. Would like to see it.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ToastyToast

I feel like I have a bunch of decent townreads this game and no real scumreads besides Salamence. Nacho, Xay, Juls, and probably Iecerint are all town. I'm liking Elyse a little less now.

My number 2 suspect would probably be PV. I really don't like that ToastyToast vote.

Toasty is null to you, and you don't like my vote on him? ¿Por que?

[PeregrineV]

Toasty's posts are annoying but I'm not convinced he's scum.

After reading:

Unlikely to vote: Elyse, Icerint, Salamence, Xayzeck, Juls, Nacho, Dry-fit
Willing to vote: burn, Peregrine, StrangerCoug, ToastyToast

Of the four I listed:
burn needs to post again.
Peregrine I have no read on.
StrangerCoug is mostly gut
ToastyToast I think I'm just emotionally reacting to, not sure yet if his play is anti-town.

VOTE: PeregrineV

pedit: Since we don't know the syntax for the kill
KILL: X
vs.
DAYVIG: X
vs.
VIG: X
etc.

neither of the two "attempts" at dayvigging prevent their posters from being the dayvig.

Pretty sure you can't make the dayvig dayvig someone.

[PeregrineV]

Is who has the blessings public knowledge?

No, but I got the bad one for today.

[PeregrineV]

@PeregrineV: would you describe your playstyle as one that starts slowly?

It depends on mood and RL stuff. I also like the interactions stuff more than day1 guessing, so I can easily say day1's are usually my slowest days.

[PeregrineV]

is this vote based on "random undisclosed information," too?

but really I deserve the vote because I completely forgot I was in a game.

You said you'd catch up Saturday night. It was Tuesday.
The game isn't too fast where you got left behind.
More incentive to post.
Was bored.
Secret stuff.

[PeregrineV]

Pretty sure you can't make the dayvig dayvig someone.

...

What in that post implies that I think this is possible?

~STD

You are pointing out that the syntax of the dayvig is relevant.

If I were the dayvig, and and didn't want to dayvig someone, I would simply PM the mod to tell them not to count it.

[PeregrineV]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...

Vote: PeregrineV

[PeregrineV]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...

Vote: PeregrineV

Am I the only one who feels this Pere vote just came out of nowhere?

No, I agree with you.

[PeregrineV]

is this vote based on "random undisclosed information," too?

but really I deserve the vote because I completely forgot I was in a game.

You said you'd catch up Saturday night. It was Tuesday.
The game isn't too fast where you got left behind.
More incentive to post.
Was bored.
Secret stuff.

Do like your catchup.

Vote: Dry-fit

[PeregrineV]

You are pointing out that the syntax of the dayvig is relevant.

If I were the dayvig, and and didn't want to dayvig someone, I would simply PM the mod to tell them not to count it.

Wait, seriously? Wouldn't that be the same thing as me voting someone and asking the mod not to count it?

Dunno. But voting rules are posted in Rules pretty clearly, and it's also pretty standard. Special abilities are not, even if the activation is supposedly public (dayvigs and treestumps are the first things that come to mind).

[PeregrineV]

Toasty is null to you, and you don't like my vote on him? ¿Por que?

I don't like naked votes. Also I don't like voting a player this far into the game who hasn't really provided content. You still haven't explained your vote.

Been posting my thoughts. If you're looking for something in particular, you can ask.

My Toasty vote? 298
My dry-fit vote? 267

[PeregrineV]

So you think the only thing I should look at to determine whether I like a vote or not is my read on the player it's on?

That's up to you. If I think someone is scum for one reason, and you think someone is scum for another, then I don't care, as long as you vote them.

[PeregrineV]

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

You mean I 'm going from biggest wagon to biggest wagon?

Because otherwise you are attempting to make changing my vote a scummy thing.

[PeregrineV]

Toasty, who voted me for thinking PV is votehopping

Which is not a legitimate reason to vote you, now that you bring it up. I would call three votes in fourteen posts vote hopping.

Sorry I missed the memo on the minimum posts needed before changing votes.

FoS: Toasty and PeregrineV

I'm seeing a chainsaw defense here.

Just so I'm reading this right, you think Toasty is defending me by attacking Sal, right?

[PeregrineV]

@Toasty

- I'm actually currently voting Dry-Fit (mostly for his objection to my vote on you, a null read of his).

[PeregrineV]

Why? Same reasons as 279? Has your view on ToastyToast changed at all since then or is the sentiment still the same?

My bro beat me to a PV vote... Well great minds think alike. Or maybe just twins.

@ PV Dry-fit wasn't voting ToastyToast so I don't understand your explanation in 318

Dry-fit had Toasty as a null read, and still objected to me voting him.

[PeregrineV]

UNVOTE:

Hey guys.

Hey Aronis! Are you actually a Cancer?

[PeregrineV]

@ PV IIRC he objected to the nakedness and lack of explanation of the vote on ToastyToast (at the time), in which case I don't see how Dry-Fit's read on ToastyToast is relevant.


Hi Aronis! Welcome to the game!

-Rolls

I'd expect if he thought Toasty scum, he would welcome my vote.
If he thought Toasty null, he would question my vote.
If he thought Toasty town, he would object to my vote.

When he objected, I tried to find why he thought Toasty was town. I found nothing.

[PeregrineV]

@Elsye

- lol at 339. Your voting me for gut, telling Xay his question about Nacho's vote on me is loaded while asking Nacho about his vote on me, and questioning Gemini for voting a nullread (me).

Sala is voting me for sheeping Nacho and moving my vote too often (votehopping).
Toasty is voting Sala because he doesn't like the charactization of me moving me votes as vote-hopping.

I don't see how that is the same as 323 (which was mostly to correct Toasty's misconception I was voting Sal, and to elaborate why I was voting Dry-fit).

[PeregrineV]

I'm voting you for more than gut. I haven't liked any of your posts, really.

I didn't say that Xay's question was loaded...and what does that have to do with me asking Nacho about his vote?

Yes, I am questioning Gemini for voting a nullread. You literally said two posts ago you would expect that from someone.

My point is that you are attacking dry-fit for not liking your vote on ToastyToast (a nullread of his).
Meanwhile, ToastyToast doesn't like Sala's vote on you (a nullread of his), and you don't attack him.

OK. You have anything specific you "don't like"?

---

Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.

Was loaded the wrong word? You called it scummy, but your saying it was all in the syntax of the question.

---

Because I am a scumread to YOU, and a nullread to HIM. (But I see you did ask why me OVER the other 2, so that is a little different).

---

I'm voting Dry-fit for objecting to my vote instead of questioning it. see340
Toasty has stated he didn't like THE REASON for the vote on me.

[PeregrineV]

nothing today, will catchup tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

Iecerint (I'll try to spell your name correctly from here on out) was a townread for me mostly for 41 (if I remember correctly).

Not sure what in his ISO makes it the worst, the latter posts lack the meat found in the earlier ones, but I think that's true across the board. In fact I don't really seen anything specific, just a general "I hate his ISO" from Nachomamma.

Aronis jumping on PeregrineV and then jumping off to wait for CTD to post doesn't make me particularly happy.

I'm not attached to our PeregrineV vote so I suppose VOTE: Aronis

I don't really know why this game is hard to get movement; I can't really blame anyone for feeling that way because I feel it too.

~STD

This logic bothers me but I don't know why.

[PeregrineV]

I am willing to compromise on Iecerint, I suppose.

Nacho, I do agree that PerV's scum meta is to lay low, but I don't really think he's put himself out there as much as you say he is.

I do agree that he's put himself out less than he normally does as town.
But I can't help but think part of the reason he's doing so less than normal is because of the slow pace of the game.
Him not putting himself out to the degree I'd like is also the reason he's leaning town as opposed to reading town.

I would be a pretty happy camper if you voted Iec!

I didn't notice it until recently, but I've been playing a lot more large themes that seem to take off at a sprint, so there is always something going on. It's been a while since I've done a mini, and I'm liking the slower pace in terms of keeping up, but there is less activity to scrutinize, so am doing a little more wait and see until I have more info.

I suppose there is a reason you think Iec is scum....

[PeregrineV]

@CTD

- Finally!

@Xay-

- I'll have to click thorough the links to see if I agree with your assessment, but I think that's the most effort I've seen in my games with you. Preliminary, based only on cpaturing the ssense of my Elyse feelings,

Vote: Elyse

@Toasty

- Good luck. And keep posting.

Re:Sal wagon-

meh. Got 4 days, but can decide by Friday, since weekends I tend to be away from computer.

[PeregrineV]

@PV: So the salamence wagon is meh but you vote Elyse without even knowing what the case is? Xayzeck may be town but he's in major tunnel mode this game so it's hard for me to take his case all that seriously.

Good luck Toasty!

Preliminary, based only on capturing the essence of my Elyse feelings,

[PeregrineV]

@Nacho

- I'll look at it when I'm not leaving.

[PeregrineV]

@Nacho
I am voting Peregrine because

- he did not have much content at all early on, and did not even engage in setup spec - instead he talked about horoscopes

Yes, they fascinate me because while any horoscope can pretty much apply to anyone, each person is able to internalize "their" horoscope to some degree, which then causes the mind to accept other parts as equally as relevant even when there would be no rational reason to otherwise.

OK, Nacho, you can might be town. For now.

unless there are cults, my towniness is here to stay
additionally, you aren't voting salamence with us

Meh. Just for you. For now.

Vote: Salamaence20

- the "for now"s in both of these posts make his reads less concrete and easier to change later if necessary.

Yes.

- he says setup spec is protown but doesn't engage in it

Which part? Overall I think 9:3. The dayvig?

either of the 2 ideas (extra lynch, or shoot at will) are fine

Something else?

- has several naked votes (ToastyToast, dryfit, me) - the votes seem to have reasoning he provides later on, but the timing is always wacky and it's almost as if he's strategically placing his votes to have no impact

Guess I'm wacky then. People dislike it just as much when I even up competing wagons to see how they go.

- his reasons for his votes are pretty bad (voting toasty because he didn't post, voting dry fit for "objecting" to his vote on a null read, voting me because ??? after SC hopped off my wagon)

Subjective, but OK.

Or we lynch PV

Or Elyse

[PeregrineV]

Too many posts to try to read on the phone. Will look tonight if possible, otherwise back Monday.

[PeregrineV]

Last game to catchup. Tonight or tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

Monday- back!

And prod!

[PeregrineV]

Without reading back, I tend to agree with Dry-fit's 602, at least about Toasty and myself. Looking over Aronis, he does look like a lot of back and forth on Sal, but want to read Sal's iso for more info first.

He would have just shot PV.

Except I'm easier to mislynch than Elyse, apparently. But, I think the Elyse shot doesn't make much sense either. If I had it as scum, I'd shoot the towniest person and just claim they were too town to be town.

[PeregrineV]

If they wanted to mislynch you, why would they shoot Elyse and kill Gemini -- both of whom were on your wagon yesterday?

Elyse I would assume because aside from her gut read on me, she said or did something that scared or worried scum-Sal. Gemini no clue, probably something similar, haven't re-read him yet.

[PeregrineV]

Well I'm town.

If I die scumreads are PV, Iec, Xay, Sala in that order.

[PeregrineV]

Vote Count 1 - 6

• Salamence20 (5) ( Dry-fit - Nachomamma8 - Xayzeck - PeregrineV - StrangerCoug)
  
  Xayzeck (2) ( ToastyToast - Elyse)
  burn_209 (1) (
  Salamence20
  - Juls)
  Dry-fit (1) ( Gemini Blind -
  StrangerCoug
  )
  ToastyToast (1) ( Iecerint)
  Juls (1) ( burn_209)
  PeregrineV (1) ( Salamence20)
  
  Not Voting (0) ()

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-08 15:35:00)

Dear Nacho:

The only scummy things I am worried about at this time are the people on my wagon.

Love, Sally

The only 2 people to get votes yesterday from Sal are Xay and me (CTD in RVS). There doesn't appear to be actual analysis of his wagon, just Sal and ANcho going back and forth about me and Xay.

[PeregrineV]

In terms of actual reading, Nacho is town regardless of his misreading of me, he is scumhunting early and like I said earlier, scumhunting and getting us out of RVS is always protown. SC slightly less, but still. Gemini is looking good too, based on the fact that I feel like STD would love to hop on my wagon based on my personality.

On the other side of things, I don't like Xay. All three votes of his have been bandwagons on Iec, WP, and myself, respectively. It just seems like trying to hiding behind the crowd on a mislynch.

Out of all the people on my wagon, Xay's and PV's votes are the worse. PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning. I think more pressure need to be put onto PV, Xay, or both.

Town:

Nacho/SC: I already explained these reads.
Gemini: I feel like STD would be handling my wagon differently if he was scum.

Null:

Juls (Aronis): If this was a micro, I would be sheeping her by now, but this is obviously not the case. She fakes a dayvig, not quite sure of the test she was trying to perform. Other than vigspec, hasn't been much out of her. Is the fake dayvig more townish or scummish in this game. (Leans town)

Iec: there may be a connection between him and Juls. I'm not sure. Against setup spec as well. Want to hear more from him now that I'm here and playing (null)

Burn (CTD): This "I'm voting people for setup spec" of his seems off compared to SC/Nacho. Says that I'm scum for dayvig spec and Juls scum because of her plan being complicated. Definitely want to hear more from him. (Null)

Witness/Toasty: Yeah... What was that wagon on him about other than Nacho showing he makes town his bitch. (null)

Elyse: what bugs me the most about her is that she is serious(?) voting Xay, but doesn't have any scumreads. So is Xay a nullread worth pressuring or what? Possible sitting around, but not enough has been said on her end to make me believe anything yet. (Leans scum)

Dry-Fit: I don't like him. His subtle "I am a dayblocker" joke was unnecessary regardless of the joke. Scumreads my townreads, and states strategy is a scumtell, where (IMO) I've seen it as town more than scum. (Leans scum)

Scum:

PV/Xay: Best case of scum on my wagon for reasons already stated.

Sal "reads" list.

There also seems to be a lot of Sal bitching about people sheeping Nacho, but him finding Nacho himself town.

[PeregrineV]

Somewhere between VC1-8 and 1-9, the wagon shifted from me to Sal. Need to dig in there to see what caused the vote shift. (2 has each VC)

[PeregrineV]

Spoiler: Vote changes between 1.8 and 1.9

Versatility is a great keyword for this dual sign. Expressive and quick-witted, the Gemini presents two distinctive sides to his or her personality, and you can never be sure with which one you're going to come face-to-face. On one hand, the Gemini can be outgoing, flirtatious, communicative, and ready for fun, fun, fun. Yet when the other twin is present, you can find this air sign contemplative, serious, restless, and even indecisive. Both twins are able to adapt to life's circumstances well, making them wonderful people to know. Things are never boring when a Gemini is on the scene.

Gemini's lucky numbers today: 25, 12, 8, 14, 18, 10

"What lies behind you and what lies in front of you, pales in comparison to what lies inside of you." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

---

Vote Count 1 - 8

• Salamence20 (4) ( Dry-fit - Nachomamma8 - Xayzeck -
  PeregrineV
  - StrangerCoug)
  
  PeregrineV (2) ( Salamence20 - Elyse)
  ToastyToast (2) ( Iecerint - PeregrineV)
  Xayzeck (1) ( ToastyToast -
  Elyse
  )
  burn_209 (1) ( Juls)
  Dry-fit (1) ( Gemini Blind)
  Juls (1) ( burn_209)
  
  Not Voting (0) ()

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-08 15:35:00)

I'm not explaining this in the right way.

You have two scumreads - Sala and me.

Your scumread on me is because I didn't have scumreads, so at that time (when I said I didn't have scumreads), your only scumread was Sala.

And I said I don't think Sala is scum.

So who was my scumread(s) supposed to be? I literally wasn't scumreading anyone, and you can't fault me for that because you weren't either - except for Sala who I specifically said I didn't find scummy. I wasn't going to make stuff up just to appease people.

UNVOTE: Salamence20
VOTE: Elyse

As I said, I don't care that you didn't, and still don't, think that Salamence20 is scum. I care that it took you this long to get a read at all, be it Salamence20, PeregrineV, Xayzeck—I wouldn't even care if it was

ME

if you had a good reason to suspect me.

You've demonstrated that you know I'm not here to decide your scumreads for you. Now knock it off with the misrep.

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...

Vote: PeregrineV

VOTE: Elyse

I'm extending the deadline by three days as I try to find another Cancer to preserve the theme. If I cannot find one by then, I have another player interested in taking the slot. Unfortunately we'll lose that part of the theme, however.

"Understanding" is a most appropriate keyword for this gentle, affectionate sign. Easygoing and generally accepting of others around them, Pisceans are often found in the company of a variety of different personalities. Their willingness to give of themselves emotionally lends to an aura of quiet empathy. A Pisces is comforting to be around. While not likely to be the leader, this sign's presence is strong and vibrant in any cause they put their hearts into.

Pisces' lucky numbers today: 24, 25, 19, 28, 34, 22

"There is nothing which can better deserve your patronage, than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." - George Washington

---

Vote Count 1 - 9

• PeregrineV (3) ( Salamence20 - Elyse - Nachomamma8)
  
  ToastyToast (2) ( Iecerint - PeregrineV)
  Elyse (2) ( StrangerCoug - Xayzeck)
  Salamence20 (1) ( Dry-fit -
  Nachomamma8
  -
  Xayzeck
  -
  StrangerCoug
  )
  Xayzeck (1) ( ToastyToast)
  burn_209 (1) ( Juls)
  Juls (1) ( burn_209)
  
  Dry-fit (0) (

  Gemini Blind

  )
  
  
  Not Voting (1) ( Gemini Blind)

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-11 15:35:00)

Nacho, Xay, and StrangerCoug all left the Sal wagon.
Stranger to vote Eylse
Xay to vote Elyse
Nacho to vote me.

Stranger voted because of misrep or slow reads or being slow to get reads.

Nacho voted for no reason given, but went from voting a scumread to voting with a (former?) scumread.

Xay voted Elsye for no reason given (but maybe 509?)

Really reluctant to do it, but a Sal townread and now seeing this.

Vote: Nachomamma

[PeregrineV]

Can I pick who hammers me then?

I'm not one for letting scum have things how they want them. Feel free to hammer yourself when the time comes though.

Wait, you're alive? I thought you were just a talking dummie.

Yea this is the kind of content Aronis is up to producing here. No desire to find scum. No desire to help he town. Kill it now.

@PV: I have my doubts about Nacho as well but he's not the lynch for today and it isn't going to get the support today.

My biggest issue with the Aronis lynch is the fact he hammered Sala. I very rarely find scum hammering scum, just because it makes it harder for them to win. Wagon, yes. Hammer, not so much.

Why is he a better lynch than Nacho?

[PeregrineV]

vote:aronis

Much better lynch than nacho

Why?

Also, given Aronis hammered Sala, why would he do that when it would have been easier to NOT do it?

[PeregrineV]

@Nacho-

You have a reason for the CTD vote?

[PeregrineV]

Uh, SC was pretty obvious town.

I had him more as a null- it seemed like he was focused away from whatever was being most talked about.

[PeregrineV]

Spoiler: Off topic

I watch that show Utopia on Fox (thanks only to the power of the DVR), and of them all, I think Amanda the pregnant chick does the least to help out. Or, if she does stuff, it's not shown very often. I get she's a behavioral specialist and all, but in terms of getting stuff done, she is one I would want to see voted off. Anyways, today I looked at the website, and found out she is also an Aquarius!

Only tangentially related to the game, but in person I think I always get along with other Aquarii (or do they get along withe me?), but aside from having Utopia's first baby, I'm not impressed with the Aquarius in the group (not sure if there are others- just checked my least and most favs)

[PeregrineV]

@RC- V/LA this weekend mostly- I'll be out of town, mostly.

[PeregrineV]

Back- catching up today/tonight

[PeregrineV]

Caught up.

My biggest scumread would have to be Iec at this point.

@Iec

- Can you explain why you didn't confirm someone night2? I get that you thought StrangerCoug was town so didn't hide behind him, but why not behind me or another scumread? You could have made it pretty clear so that when you died we would know.

[PeregrineV]

If it's 4:2, why is no-lynch bad again?

[PeregrineV]

Anyone home? I got an hour at work then might be able to get on in the next 5 hours after that. Maybe.

[PeregrineV]

Caught up.

My biggest scumread would have to be Iec at this point.

@Iec

- Can you explain why you didn't confirm someone night2? I get that you thought StrangerCoug was town so didn't hide behind him, but why not behind me or another scumread? You could have made it pretty clear so that when you died we would know.

Read the last paragraph of my claim post.

I guess I can probably go a step farther and clarify why I had such a strong townread on StrangerCoug, since I think it might provide context. It's not WHY I thought it -- that part was obvious -- but it's relevant to why I had really strong opinions going into D3.

I got the Hide N1. I didn't use it last night because I would not flip with clarification that I had been a Hider (complicating crumbing it and using it as a weak investigation), and my only town read for confirming innocence was StrangerCoug, and I thought he was so obviously going to be kill that he wasn't safe to confirm as town by hiding behind.

I probably might have put more thought into crumbing it (or just claimed it outright, in hindsight), but I was visiting AP on the West Coast during D2, so I wasn't devoting as much time to my games as I might otherwise have. I remember because I remember voting for Aronis just before going to get on the plane to return.

The bottom line is that it was a play error, but not one that I could correct after I was back from the West Coast, since it was already night and I hadn't crumbed a hide target.

I saw that. But, unlike Sal using the dayvig, scum using the hider has no benefit. Or even claiming to have used the hider, really. However, claiming it but still having it decreases the likelihood of getting lynched (in a normal game).

[PeregrineV]

If it's 4:2, why is no-lynch bad again?

It isn't bad. It is basically the standard play, especially if there is not an obvious town player. CTD made it slightly less ideal by claiming, but she's scumread enough that it may not matter, and it's just one-shot, anyway.

The potential downside is that we could get a "fortunate" Daykill horoscope and scum could get it, giving them the win. The chance of this is pretty low, though, and has to be leveraged against any town-positive horoscope and the improved scumlynch probability.

CTD has also speculated that it may be 4:1 due to perceived lack of town power and argued that this means we should lynch, though the math still favors NL whenever there is an even number of players, anyway, so this is mostly a theory error on her part. But the extra random kill elements in this game does mess with that some, I guess.

I saw all of that.

On the odds part, randomly, town gets favored (more so early game, but still), and potential randomness can only play so much in deciding.

Saw the CTD 1 scum left theory. I'm also VT, but considering any of us can be PRs, I don't think that negates 9:3. And testing that is not high on my list at this point in time.

Considering you are my choice to lynch, would like to hear about why everyone else is not for the standard no lynch that our position calls for.

[PeregrineV]

I did entertain hide-crumbing a few times while I was at AP's, but I figured scum would probably be hunting for Hide crumbs since they knew someone had just gotten a Hide, which could just result in a free extra NK if they figured it out and it was on town. So I kept putting it off because I never had time to think about the perfect balance, and I didn't even have a target I wanted to try hiding behind. I also wouldn't flip as a Hider, so I couldn't 100% count on people putting the pieces together if it was too vague.

Yeah, maybe.....

Vote: No lynch

But if we get 2 more that want to lynch you, and I get on on time, I'll probably switch to you.

[PeregrineV]

Hmm. Secret Admirer is not very good. Even if a scum who got it or was targeted gets lynched, it's a scum win unless the Hide or Block stops the kill.

I think we should only fake-vote. When we have 3/5 fake-votes and everyone confirms his fake-vote, we each get a chance to indicate if the target is loverized. If it is...

well, I guess we still have to lynch them in that case, come to think of it. So maybe it doesn't really change anything. We just have to hope the abilities can save us in such a case.

But it's possible that they could both be town with hide (if I was targeted) or the block, so it's still possible to win in that case.

I don;t get most of what you are saying here.

The probability of my hide ending the game with a scum win outright was 60% (can't hide behind scum, can't hide behind NK target, the chance of their targeting me is basically 0%). I didn't think through the ramifications of the nympho role very carefully.

Your claim means that if Xayzeck is scum, you would have to be his buddy. You could also be scum with non-Xayzeck. If you are town, the scum have to be PereV and Toasty from my POV.

I think I get the first half, but your using random numbers when you actually have an informed choice that should reduce those odds.

As for the 2nd, you'll understand if I disagree.

Except there is almost certainly only one scum left. I take it you disagree?

I saw the 826 post, but you get why accepting that at face value isn't going to happen, right?

[PeregrineV]

Re: "what I am saying here": 5 players, 2 scum. 1 scum is neighborized to 1 town. One of these is lynched -> 3 players, 1 scum. Nightkill. Scum win. But it's true that this is more flexible if 1 scum remains.

You probably don't disagree that that's the only interpretation from my POV, unless you're saying 1 scum remains.

OK, I could not for the life of me figure what you meant, then I got it. Secret Admirer. Scum could be tied to town or town to scum, or town to town which means we have to be careful. Guessing scum would not tie to scum.

I'll think through permuations later.

[PeregrineV]

Re: "what I am saying here": 5 players, 2 scum. 1 scum is neighborized to 1 town. One of these is lynched -> 3 players, 1 scum. Nightkill. Scum win. But it's true that this is more flexible if 1 scum remains.

You probably don't disagree that that's the only interpretation from my POV, unless you're saying 1 scum remains.

OK, I could not for the life of me figure what you meant, then I got it. Secret Admirer. Scum could be tied to town or town to scum, or town to town which means we have to be careful. Guessing scum would not tie to scum.

I'll think through permuations later.

If scum got it, they loverize town, so that if they are killed, they take a townie with them.
3:2
lynch scum, town dies
2:1
NK- scum wins

Town got it, loverize scum
3:2
lynch town, scum dies
2:1
NK-scum wins

Town got it, loverize town
3:2
lynch scum
3:1
NK- 66% scum win, 33% 2:1 lylo

Town got it, loverize town
3:2
lynch non-lover town,
2:2 scum win

Town got it, loverize town
3:2
lynch town lover
1:2 scum win

Ok, some of this is modified by where the BP is. If scum have it, it looks really bad. If town has it, the first 2 scenarios go to lylo.

And yes, this is the 2 left theory. CTD can do the one left theory.

[PeregrineV]

But the lover thing is only one way, so mitigates some of those numbers.

[PeregrineV]

Sorry, out of steam- will come back to this later.

[PeregrineV]

Not really, no. I don't accept "minis usually have 3 scum" as an argument. 13 player games usually have 3 scum. When the town has a significant power edge. This game doesn't have either. It's not hugely relevant anymore because we have to lynch anyway and either the game will end or not. But you too should have made your argument yesterday.

Aside from some special themed minis, I've never seen a 12 or 13 player game have anything other than 3.

[PeregrineV]

Aries' Daily Horoscope: Be careful about being manipulated by another person today, Aries. It's possible that someone is putting words in your mouth in order to get you to act a certain way. Don't fall into this trap. Be your own person and think for yourself. Your mind is susceptible and vulnerable now. Use your eyes and ears as a filter and don't let people unload their garbage on you.

Okay these are starting to make me nervous. If RC has been posting relevant fortunes throughout the game I will facepalm.

I just went back and read all mine. They still seem as generic as ever, but it is kind of funny when they are actually relevant to real life.

[PeregrineV]

OK, caught up.

Pretty much where I'm at.

Toasty- Yes, I think Toasty is town. Since he replaced in he has been interacting with everyone, and pushing, poking and prodding to get reads and create discussion. I admit I'm partial to this style myself, but I can see his play as transparent and actively trying to solve the game.

CTD- I mostly tend to lean CTD town, but not for the same reason as Toasty. For the most part, I've not been feeling his reads until we came to Nacho. My biggest concern for CTD is that I feel like he has a town read on me, but that we have really interacted. This could be because we just finished a game as masons together and maybe he knows me well enough without asking all the questions, but that type of interaction is how I pick up a lot of my reads.

Xay- Mostly only susceptible because while I don't have a strong town read on him, it's because I feel Toasty & CTD are more town. But, Sal putting him as a scumread along with me early game has kept him in the townside of everything.

Iec- Sorry, bud, but I do think you're scum. I like your caution and keeping up with the horoscope powers, but it really bugs me that you didn't use your ability to confirm (or damn) someone prior to circumstances making it impossible for you to do so. And I'll admit it doesn't help that you're scumreading me without me really understanding why you have that read.

Discuss.

[PeregrineV]

On the horoscopes, I only got the one I claimed (bad day1- no effect)

[PeregrineV]

I am in very bad health and will likely spend the next couple of days in the hospital. I consequently haven't really thought about mafia the past days.

I have a doctor's appointment in a couple of hours and will be able to decide afterwards if I need to be replaced or not (depending on whether I need surgery today).

I'm very sorry I haven't given this game the attention it needs.

Take care of you first.

[PeregrineV]

OK, caught up.

Pretty much where I'm at.

Toasty- Yes, I think Toasty is town. Since he replaced in he has been interacting with everyone, and pushing, poking and prodding to get reads and create discussion. I admit I'm partial to this style myself, but I can see his play as transparent and actively trying to solve the game.

CTD- I mostly tend to lean CTD town, but not for the same reason as Toasty. For the most part, I've not been feeling his reads until we came to Nacho. My biggest concern for CTD is that I feel like he has a town read on me, but that we have really interacted. This could be because we just finished a game as masons together and maybe he knows me well enough without asking all the questions, but that type of interaction is how I pick up a lot of my reads.

Xay- Mostly only susceptible because while I don't have a strong town read on him, it's because I feel Toasty & CTD are more town. But, Sal putting him as a scumread along with me early game has kept him in the townside of everything.

Iec- Sorry, bud, but I do think you're scum. I like your caution and keeping up with the horoscope powers, but it really bugs me that you didn't use your ability to confirm (or damn) someone prior to circumstances making it impossible for you to do so. And I'll admit it doesn't help that you're scumreading me without me really understanding why you have that read.

Discuss.

This reads pretty much like point-for-point bullshit.

1. I can imagine reasons that someone might think that Toasty is town. However, "Toasty is trying to solve the puzzle" is the

opposite

of his playstyle this game. His playstyle this game is using rhetoric to support a position that he identifies ahead of time.

Except for the fact that I just finished Revolution Mafia with him, in which I had a guilty on SKOT, and pressed him on his SKOT read. He pretty much called me scum and ignored me, and most of his posts were empty bullshit. Here, there is content and NOT empty bullshit.

This reads like you're just glancing at his long walls, perceiving "Toasty is tryharding," and then assuming that he is puzzle-solving without actually reading his posts critically.

Then I'll pretty much place the onus on YOU to disabuse me of my read. He has pretty much interacted with and commented/questioned every player. And not in the same scum-way as the last game.

2. The CTD content is meta-based; can't really comment on that. I don't really recall CTD having a townread on Peregrine, but I can imagine Peregrine being more sensitive to this possibility than me. She really

shouldn't

given her own stated take on the setup (1 scum, Xay cleared), but w/e. I suppose she thought it was Xay last night, so maybe just not re-broached due to your relative absence.

I don't recall a distinct read on me from CTD, except maybe not liking a wagon at some point. But a quick ISO+CRTL+F has at least 2 posts where he townread me.
Explain "relative absence", and that whole last sentence- not sure I get what you are saying.

3. CTD claimed to have roleblocked Xay last night, so Xay is extremely likely to be town. It is only possible that Xay is scum if a) he is scum with CTD or b) there are 2 scum and the other scum killed last night.

Just like the tracker in newbie games- if the other one did it, then tracking someone to nowhere means nothing.

This interaction is probably the most important thing to considering in evaluating Xay given how little he has done today, so the fact that you totally ignored/missed it, similar to your point about Toasty, makes me think you have not read the game very carefully for one reason or another.

Do YOU think Xay is cleared?
I don't think I missed anything, I'm just taking the pessimistic view.

4A. Again, you are missing/ignoring that I have explained the full context for using my Hider action. You can very easily cross-reference my activity in this game during D2 (the only night when it was reasonable to use my Hide) with my activity on the site in general and confirm that I am not bullshitting.

Except that if you knew you would be out, you can submit your night action early. Pretty sure RC will not say "It's daytime, send it to me at night."

And why the hell is non-optional use of an ability a scumtell, anyway? As scum I could "confirm" anyone in the game by lying about a hide target and then kill them immediately and avoid scrutiny due to this. Or I could just forego claiming Hider altogether, especially since someone (CTD I think) had just been like "well the Hider obviously used his/her ability yesterday hehe" immediately beforehand (i.e., so it was clear it would invite scrutiny).

Claiming the hider made me NOT want to lynch you, on the off chance that you could hard-confirm town. I accepted your reasoning before, since hey, you can use it n3. But, you didn't (you claim), so now it's less about using the Hider ability and more about claiming it.

4B. Main reasons to think you are relatively likely scum go way back to Salamance's kill D1 (the Elyse target over his stated suspects suggests his stated suspects may have included scumfriends, since he could just shoot his preferred target and take less scrutiny). Apart from that, the roleblock logic from CTD makes it more likely that at least one of you and Toasty are scum, hence my focus on the two of you.

I have said both of those things a gazillion times, so not sure why you do not understand that it is a thing.

And that's fine. I would venture a guess Toasty is NOT scum with you, so there is that.

[PeregrineV]

Or are you just putting aside your stronger scumread on PV since he's lurk?

Where the hell is this coming from?

PV looks like he's not paying much attention( ) while not being honest about it ( ) while appealing to Toasty's perspective( ). Seems relatively sketchy at this point.( )

I can guess now where this is going.

@RC-V/LA Oct 24-27

But deadline is in 4 hours, and with volleyball games, etc, I won't be back before then.

Pretty much an hour, then I'm probably voting Iecrint.

[PeregrineV]

I have to say though that I'm completely bewildered by PV insisting there are two scum left, yet town reading everyone but Iece. Why aren't you looking for scum pairs, PV? I'm pretty sure you did in the mason game that's been referenced a bunch of times. Hope you have time to address this.

Mostly because of how disastrously it went last time. It pretty much tanked, and we lost.

I always figure it like a logic puzzle, that if 5 players each gave their 2 scumreads, we could use logic to eliminate certain pairs, leaving the most likely group. I even tried this assuming a propensity for scum to not bus (to avoid another lylo) and for town to be wrong (on at least one of their choices). But, scum does bus, and I think the 3(?) times before last I tried it either went no where or I was wrong.

Now, I try to rely less on ovethinking and hope if I can get one, I'll either worry about it tomorrow or I won't.

[PeregrineV]

Did it tank because of scumpair analysis? The way I remember it, we lost because we couldn't get over our Thor suspicion.

I was trying to tie 2 together. Bulba kept nulling smarg no matter what, so I thought they were a pair. Thor wouldn't give a straight answer on TSO, so I thought they were a pair. Bulba was scumreading TSO, but lightly, so we missed the fact he never pushed it. And this was all just based on knowing ourselves as town. It gets worse when you don't have the one confirmed.

[PeregrineV]

And I have to leave.

Vote: Iecrint

[PeregrineV]

Crap- will come back to this later.

[PeregrineV]

I need to look back. Will do it later.

[PeregrineV]

Prodding Pere

Received. back later

[PeregrineV]

From Sala's posts

Has a single opinion of CTD/burn (null) other than an RVS vote for the slot.

Same for Toasty, whom he also calls scum with me (285). Wants the wagon (290). 584 is something, but don't think it's relevant.

Hard to picture Toasty as scum with Sal

290-309-313-316- Toasty votes Sal who calls me scum (for vote-hopping onto toasty?) but then is calling Toasty scum with me.

Toasty ISO re Sala

Not going to list them all, but pushing Sal through most of ISO. If they are only two scum, then doesn't make sense for them to go after each other in the way they did.

CTD stuff later.

[PeregrineV]

I enjoyed reading the scum thread as well (yay at not getting night killed because you thought I was a sure Iece vote <3; I was really suspicious when Xayzeck was killed over me).

One of the problems is perception. As I write this, I had 89 posts, and most were not prod dodging (which I personally don't like doing as town, much less as scum) and only a few were fluff. The three higher posters above me were all town, and my style in general does not lend towards multiple posts, mostly.

The problem was everyone was pretty town. I felt like any push I made was based on nothing (because they were), and trying to sheep or buddy any one player I felt would have been obvious, especially as I would then have to do it for each mislynch.

I had no problem talking in the scum QT, because I was trying to solve the scum-problem of too many townies.

But seriously, I had to count on/drive/encourage/make happen a mislynch, then have a successful NK like 5 times in a row while dodging a billion town PRs.

I shot players that would make any NK analsysi hard, I think.

Gemini- Sharp hydra- did not want 2 heads scumhunting.
Strangercoug- he was listed as town in Sal's reads list. His town flip would give that list more credence, so when I used it for cases/WIFOM, it would match up. Plus, he played well with Nacho (and most everyone else).
Dry-fit- lack of scumreads on him meant no way was I going to get a mislynch. Also, as an outlier, hoped would not be receiving any PR attention. Plus his spot in the Sal "nulls" group would maybe think town was missing something. I don't know if this kill was optimal, but it seemed the best at the time.
Xayzeck- being cleared by CTD kind of killed my traitor dreams. And I didn't think he was scum. And the guy posted, a lot. And if the one guy who did think he was scum (CTD) decided he probably wans't, it was time for him to go. Also, his flip would still NOT confirm CTD as town, so minimal damage was the key.
Also, was still hoping for an Iec mislynch. He'd been the prior day's top guy, so why kill what you can hang.
Was definitely worried about the BP.

Last day was still going to vote for CTD. How you can read Ttoasty's posts and not think he was scumhunting and town is beyond me.

Of course, I was the INFORMED MINIOTIRY, so I had scum-colored glasses.

@RC

- Great game!! I liked the theme, I liked the mechanics, and I even liked the dead thread

[PeregrineV]

Nacho was like "this implicates PereV" before Sala had even flipped, but then no one (even Nacho!) would vote him with me for the next several days.

Yeah, having me as scum all day and then shooting outside of it was weird before his flip. With his flip it became weirder, and would best be explained by a 3 scum team, with my and Xay as designated mislynch by the "2 remaining scum". As the game progressed, this would be harder to back up, obviously. One of the reasons I posted 650 was to try to establish that Sal was keeping his scumbuddies in the null.

[PeregrineV]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

Pere, I can sympathize with that. It was an uphill battle for you all the way without a partner. On the other hand, as CTD alluded to, it makes it tougher on the town when they kill a scumpartner so early. They have a little bit of Sal to work with, but as time goes on... Sal is just going to become less relevant in your mind. That's just human nature, I think. People are going to slight you or do something recent that you see as scummy, and it's necessarily going to outweigh past stuff. Mafia is funny like that. Town's can often times hurt themselves by killing scum too early in the sense that there's just little relationships to work off of.

I would love to run something like this as a large theme (and ditching the one-of-every-sign concept as this angle didn't really lead to much complexity in the first place and there are only 12 anyway), but a couple of things will hold me back from doing it any time soon. For one thing I'm just spending a little less time on the website. For another, large games are becoming so daunting to me as of now. I'm hoping the site as a whole has the pendulum swing back the other way toward less, uh, silly (or, at least, less prominent silliness) and ostentatious posting styles. That's a whole other can of worms, but I just wanted to say it out loud!

I get it.

If you run it as a large theme (and only because the large theme queue is 20x faster), you can recruit 2 of each sign if possible. If not, you can just assign 2 of each sign, leaving 24 players.