Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Game Over)

[Not_Mafia]

Hello, is your username a reference to the quality of your read on me?

I'll try to start reading up tomorrow, but work is hectic, will start sunday at the latest.

[Not_Mafia]

Is the Pasch wagon legit or is it the typical opportunistic wagon on town Pasch? Mastin is leading it, so one of them is likely scum.

[Not_Mafia]

I don't hate anyone on this site. Who am I speaking to?

[Not_Mafia]

I see. Well I don't hate you or anyone else here. Who are the hydras and who are the known members of them?

[Not_Mafia]

I was prodded

[Not_Mafia]

If you think my inactivity is alignment indicative you can check my activity across the whole site. I'll start catching up tomorrow and I'll try to do a but more catching up each evening.

I've read most of what has been posted since I subbed in, Pasch looks like typical town Pasch when he comes under pressure, dislike that Mastin is leading that wagon

[Not_Mafia]

Content

[Not_Mafia]

Spoiler:

Don't like Total Wreck from the first two pages, like Shiny though

VOTE: KittyCupCake

Like, for real.

Like, totally.

Was this an actual serious vote?

Townread on Doubleslap and scumreads on Domo and Romitelli make very little sense, especially if only their initial posts are cited. Shiny pokemon looks pretty on the ball, though.

You know mastin well enough to have hyrdra'd with her so you should know mastin well enough to know this isn't a reason to scumread her. And I remember you trotting out that phrase as scum to buddy me

VOTE: Pine

Stalker.

We're still on this on page 5?

Everything I read from pasche reads exaggerated, explain town read.

Pasch is the player least guilty of exaggerating of those who could ever be accused of exaggerating. You'd have better luck accusing me of exaggerating.

Is this sarcasm or... ? Cos Pasch has exaggerated reactions as either alignment

what is scummy about domo and romitelli?

I didn't say they were scummy; I said they were scum!

Which I know because of my VAST wealth of experience, and me seeing things nobody else sees.

Care to share with the rest of the class?

That's a good read. I tend to revise my posts heavily while making them. So, I'm not at all surprised if they come off sounding a bit less than organic. However, on the plus side, they tend to be very clear and free of errors, so there is little miscommunication.

I do that, too. I'm a lawyer, so it's second nature to revise and review what I write, especially when making an argument.

Consider me perpetually skeptical of alignment declarations without supporting evidence. Again, it's a quirk of my profession.[/quote]

Stealth brag alert

DOMO's reaction to mastin seems like how town who isn't familiar with mastin would react

I honestly have no idea what this means.

Simple, really. There are some players who in no way, shape, or form could ever be accused of exaggerating their content; you know what comes from them was natural. Then, there are other players, the majority of players, who

could

be seen, from certain angles, to have exaggerated their posting. Your name is in that list, as is mine. But of the names in the list, yours is at the bottom to the point where it'd almost be off the list. In short, your posting's so not exaggerated that it'd be almost-impossible to argue it was. (Almost, but not quite.) In other words, the point about you being scummy for it is wrong.

I'm gonna need a map to follow this thought process, can you rephrase this please?

Romitelli will flip scum. I'm not bothering to explain why right now, but that doesn't change the accuracy of the statement.

When have you ever not bothered to explain something?

Leaning Bulbazak scum.

He has much incentive to indict mastin because she is a big threat to scum..

This is what NKs are for? Like, are you seriously saying he's scum because he's targeting a good town player so he must be scum trying to get her lynched?

240 this feels town

That's the first 10 pages, will be Saturday before I can continue acting up, startlingly little has actually happened so far.

VOTE: TotalWreck

0 effort, House has his demeanor and it's not alignment indicative but he hasn't even attempted to do anything so far

[Not_Mafia]

Prodge

[Not_Mafia]

House

That's the first 10 pages, will be Saturday before I can continue acting up,

[Not_Mafia]

Why does the wagon on me exist?

[Not_Mafia]

Huge difference between reading and responding to one short post and reading 58 pages of a game.

Not that anyone should have to care but I'm working 13 hour shifts all this week but I have the weekend off, I have the time to read in real time but not to fully catch up until the weekend, I'm here as part of a cross replacement deal so I'm not going to replace out, it's just going to take me a little while longer than I would like to catch up, this has nothing to do with alignment, vote me on my content or Romi's content for all I care but voting me for "lack of effort" and equating my read on you doing no scumhunting in what I've read so far and me being busy is just idiotic.

And the questions in my catch-up post weren't rhetorical.

[Not_Mafia]

We've got someone at L-1, if there's consensus for me to hammer or declare intent to curb apathy I will

[Not_Mafia]

You change your play more than anyone on site but still drop enough consistent towntells for anyone familiar with you to townread you?

[Not_Mafia]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Not_Mafia]

Spoiler:

Agree with the scum reads on Bulbazak on page 11-12, this post especially looks scummy, bold in particular

Wisdom, one of these days you'll learn how to actually scumhunt.

Why is Kitty scum? Why is everyone on her wagon town? Because that's what you're suggesting. You have taken zero interest in figuring out her or my alignment. If you thought my stance was BS, then you should have asked me how I came to my reads on everyone. I've been very clear on my Kitty, TW, and Pasch reads. Less so on my Aronis and Jeckel reads, mostly because they are developing. Aronis's first and only post is opportunistic as crap and exactly what I'd expect from scum him. Jeckel might be town, but his first post, which jumped on the emerging Kitty wagon, felt very mechanical. The only legit vote I've seen is Farside, and that looks to be largely personal. So again, what's the Kitty case?

Push on Bulba feels off. I don't see much scumminess from Bulba, much less what Hydreigon is showing

Yeah I feel pretty good about Bulba scum

Mastin's rage posting seems like it's coming from a place of "I'm scum but I'm not scum for this"

That's page 22, Mastin's rage posting and subsequent wall exhausted me, still very little happening, game dominated by a few voices, mainly Shiny who I'm townreading. Feeling conflicted about TW, his complete lack of anything bothers me but when he does do something or places a vote they make little sense from scum. I could see him with mastin though

Eh, went to the next page, actually like this for not scum-scum interaction

Lolwut
"I can never read this guy" isn't a policy reason.

It's more than that.
-I policy-lynch policy-lynchers.
-You've done a fair amount of complaining.
-You haven't actually generated content, relying on the complaining and policy-lynch to get you through.

Does this make you scum?

No, not necessarily, although it certainly makes me receptive to the idea.
But when combined with the fact THAT I can never read you?

Yep, I'd lynch you.

I'll let you get away with only so much on you being PINE.

Hate Aronis' post but Pine's response doesn't look like a buddy response, too quick to agree

oh and why is that?

R~

Kitty is still obvscum.

You're being so anti-town, scum is the only logical solution.

Subject: Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Night1)

^This. Hydreigon is being so grossly counterproductive, they're either aggro scum or Town we need to ditch. Either way, the sooner the better. D1 is usually a shot in the dark, so it might as well be cutting out dead weight

I'm clear of my holiday V/LA. I'll have that analysis tomorrow

(In fact, I'm deeply restraining myself from doing exactly that.)

Stop being so dramatic. Instead of all this grandiose oratory, just make a simple case or two. Give me some reason to believe that your reads are correct. I'm certainly not going to do it just based on how loudly you claim to be right. Convince me to vote along with you. That's the one thing you're completely failing to do this game.

I hate this kind of empty grandstanding in general but it's also the kind of thing town Pasch comes out with, leaning scum with it though, Pasch town usually has more of an entitled vibe, this looks more hollow and constructed.

I agree with Shiny in regards to House in their spam war in pages ~30 or so, but I don't see Kitty as scum, seems like she town building a read out of personal dislike

841 Why did my 10 page catch up warrant a vote when your 16 page catch up was pretty similar

Wasn't liking Farsides push me/my slot, feeling better about it reading the context for it

Subject: Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Night1)

Fuck it, lynch me.

Tired of the bullshit.

VOTE: Total Wreck

This comes seemingly out of nowhere and doesn't fee sincere in the way stuff like typically does

Whenever Aronis posts, I don't understand what the point of it was, leaning scum posting for the sake of it over exasperated town just lurking and waiting to die.

Subject: Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Night1)

Self voting is completely unacceptable.

VOTE: Total Wreck

This is terrible, unsure what Pine's reaction and the TW/Pasch interaction says about their alignments, could be scum theatre, especcially with the encryptor flips, but I feel like I'm being too stubborn with the reads and don't want to just say this means at least one of them is town


House 1003 and on actually feel very town, settling on Pasch scum and House town.

More lecturing grandstanding "look how town I am" posting from Pasch.

Stupid fucking one-liners like this that ignore the fundamentals of the game just piss me off. Stop lying. Stop wasting everyone's time. Stop spewing nonsense. Just admit that you're scum and that you're just trying to protect yourself and we can lynch you and then kill your buddies. For fuck's sake, it's getting old!

This in particular feels fake and deliberately the constructed, The constant full stops, the exclamation mark. This isn't a genuine reactions, it's someone trying to craft an argument

Screw it, Romi's town because Bulb's not, Pine's not, and Pasch's not.

Not ready to call mastin a townread, or even a nullread, but I could sheep this list

Aronis' posting on page 45 is a joke but feels town

Really dislike Pasch's refusal of the reachout in 1131

Need to look at how he reacts to pressure as scum though because he posts like he did to Kitty as town when under fire.

Aronis looks town on 46 and 47.

Okay read up to where I subbed in, maybe I'll read after that again, maybe not, but had enough of this game for one day

Shiny Hydreigon

KittyCupCake

DOMO

GuyInFreezer
Aronis

Doubleslap
farside22

mastin2
Total Wreck

Bulbazak

Paschendale

VOTE: Pasch

[Not_Mafia]

Largely gut, felt like he should be interacting with Pasch more if really wants to sort him, felt like her rage came from a perspective of "I'm scum but not for this"

[Not_Mafia]

NM, why is mastin a scumread? She's practically claimed a town PR, and in the most sincerest of manners. Bitch is town. I was wrong.

I made that list in the night phase. Posts today have shifted her more towards null/town, will depend a lot on Bulba flip as to where my read settles

[Not_Mafia]

She is very clever and deceitful

[Not_Mafia]

Big difference between "this softclaim makes Mastin town" and "I don't want to touch Mastin today due to the softclaim", which is what I feel you're missing here? I am mostly of the latter mindset, and it appears PN is also

[Not_Mafia]

Curious, if that is the only reason you have not to trust me, why is guy not on your list?

I can't even remember anything he's posted. I had to look to see what slot it is. It's the drjeckle slot. Town by virtue of the fact I would be very surprised to see a scum slot need filling so often. It's a lame reason to town someone but it's what I think.

Scum replace out more commonly than town

[Not_Mafia]

If we're going to PL then do it pre-Lylo, Pasch and Bulba are both better lynches for today

[Not_Mafia]

Are you trolling scum or trolling town?

[Not_Mafia]

Shiny was the obvious nk. Wisdom was being loud and obnoxious and basically held the thread hostage, even if he didn't have accurate reads now, scum were doomed when he did.

[Not_Mafia]

House, did you seriously just get yourself modkilled?

[Not_Mafia]

Waiting for mod to show up and hopefully modkill House so we can move on from this to either DOMO gloating or ending this tunnel. There's still a lot I dislike about TW from D1 but late D1 and today looks like frustrated town to me, the later parts frustrated town resigned to his lynch.

Timing of Pasch's vote noted

[Not_Mafia]

Claiming scum with others is modkillable regardless of actual alignment

[Not_Mafia]

Rules

11) Claiming scum by yourself is fine. Claiming scum with others is not, regardless of the truth of this claim.
12) Pretending to break a rule will be treated the same as breaking the rule.
14) Breaking one of these rules may, at my discretion, result in a mod-kill. If you are mod-killed, you will become a Neutral Survivor, and thus automatically lose. Mod-killing may or may not end the game day.

Mod's discretion but yeah. And you can never make something modkillable as only one alignment, as then people could use it to confirm themselves.

[Not_Mafia]

I would probably actually be more interested in a Bulba wagon tomorrow.

[Not_Mafia]

also wtf tw
pretty sure he got a guilty on bulba but why get yourself modkilled like. wow. claim your result as it is before dying next time so it's not ambiguous
VOTE: bulba

This post stinks

[Not_Mafia]

I was making my catch up post in my personal private topic, I wrote post tags in it not thinking properly

[Not_Mafia]

He also fingered Farside and Pasch after I pointed out it was modkillable, not calling Bulba town but even if he flips scum I won't think House had a guilty on him. And the fakeness has nothing to do with it, claiming scum with someone else the way he did is always modkillable.

[Not_Mafia]

Pasch was my biggest scumread going in to night 1, Bulba was my biggest going in to night 2, I was ready to vote Bulba out the gate but Doubleslap's post has me second guessing, I could definitely split the difference and go for Pasch

[Not_Mafia]

Having said that

Wisdom, one of these days you'll learn how to actually scumhunt.

Why is Kitty scum? Why is everyone on her wagon town? Because that's what you're suggesting. You have taken zero interest in figuring out her or my alignment. If you thought my stance was BS, then you should have asked me how I came to my reads on everyone. I've been very clear on my Kitty, TW, and Pasch reads. Less so on my Aronis and Jeckel reads, mostly because they are developing. Aronis's first and only post is opportunistic as crap and exactly what I'd expect from scum him. Jeckel might be town, but his first post, which jumped on the emerging Kitty wagon, felt very mechanical. The only legit vote I've seen is Farside, and that looks to be largely personal. So again, what's the Kitty case?

Push on Bulba feels off. I don't see much scumminess from Bulba, much less what Hydreigon is showing

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Bulba Sorting this is my priority right now, sticking to my original read, my initial reads are usually a lot more accurate, and I have no idea how to read Marquis

[Not_Mafia]

Maybe L-1

[Not_Mafia]

That, plus her posts now, where she says she's only 50-50 on bulba while being totally willing to take him to -1 two weeks out from deadline, which is hedgy as hell and not something I'd ever expect to see from a townie.
VOTE: KittyCupCake

i'm feeling less keen on bulba than i am on you at the moment, tho.

yeah bulba, claim. intent to hammer.

[Not_Mafia]

You unvoted

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Bulbazak

[Not_Mafia]

The other thing was he was willing to hammer pine but he never said anything about the slot at all.
Also bothered by nm wording about tw mod kill. He said hopefully mod kill. Why would someone be hopeful that a player there town reading would be mod killed?

I explained these things in the very posts you quoted

Finally we have today. Bulba scum still for the same reason (yes this is a scum tell in my book)

What should have prompted my reasons to change?

and even though he posted the quote from science, he keeps his vote on bulba.

I found the sequence of events from science, but not enough to vote him over Bulba

[Not_Mafia]

and even though he posted the quote from science, he keeps his vote on bulba.

I found the sequence of events from science odd*, but not odd* enough to vote him over Bulba

EBWOP

[Not_Mafia]

1) okaayyyy?

2) There should be more reasons for a scum read.
Holding onto something from day one and using it repeatedly is scummy shit.

3) yea that shows you think science is scummy but willing to keep your vote on bulba.
Wow can I make a bet know if bulba flips town you use that as a push against science.

1) Yes I did those things, so you stating I did them doesn't mean anything. If you think my explanations don't hold up, attack them

2) You're not wrong, but Bulba's presence in the game has largely diminished since the early game and I trust my early reads more than ones I develop later

3) Yes I am, because Bulba is currently my biggest scumread, I wouldn't even call the science slot a scumread. You've just extrapolated this in to a hypothetical scum tactic I might use in the future

[Not_Mafia]

1) okaayyyy?

2) There should be more reasons for a scum read.
Holding onto something from day one and using it repeatedly is scummy shit.

3) yea that shows you think science is scummy but willing to keep your vote on bulba.
Wow can I make a bet know if bulba flips town you use that as a push against science.

1) Yes I did those things, so you stating I did them doesn't mean anything. If you think my explanations don't hold up, attack them

2) You're not wrong, but Bulba's presence in the game has largely diminished since the early game and I trust my early reads more than ones I develop later

3) Yes I am, because Bulba is currently my biggest scumread, I wouldn't even call the science slot a scumread. You've just extrapolated this in to a hypothetical scum tactic I might use in the future

1) your reasons are vague. I agree with x point is shit
2) bs
3) so the point of the multi quote from science was???

1) My reasons were to end the day because everyone was apathetic, and to move on from DOMO's tunnel, which was dominating the thread. How are those vague?
3) Because I found it odd and wanted him to expand on it, I don't understand what your actual point is here? I found something science did in regards to Bulba strange so I pointed it out, where's the part where I should either no longer be scumreading Bulba more or voting Bulba, or shouldn't have pointed out what Science did come in to it?

[Not_Mafia]

1) you realize you quoted a comment I made that was 2 different things. One thing I'm talking about is you have expand on Jack fucking shit this game and the other was willing to hammer pine without ever saying anything about the spot.
3) what you pointed to is a contradiction and left bulba at l-1. Do you really think a response will happen?

1) I didn't realise, but that just means we're back to; what don't you like about my explanations?
3) It did happen 2225, I was fine with it

I'm also noting nm you've been less then active till I called you out. Any reason for that?

You engaged me directly so I became more active, this isn't alignment indicative

[Not_Mafia]

1) you realize you quoted a comment I made that was 2 different things. One thing I'm talking about is you have expand on Jack fucking shit this game and the other was willing to hammer pine without ever saying anything about the spot.
3) what you pointed to is a contradiction and left bulba at l-1. Do you really think a response will happen?

1) I didn't realise, but that just means we're back to; what don't you like about my explanations?
3) It did happen 2225, I was fine with it

I'm also noting nm you've been less then active till I called you out. Any reason for that?

You engaged me directly so I became more active, this isn't alignment indicative

1. My bad. I meant you tw hope he's modkill. I don't think it matters that Domo tunneled. Lots of players have been tunneling this game. Hoping for a mod kill on a town is skimmy.
2. He hasn't even fucking unvoted kcc. How the fuck are you okay with that.

You want to bring in meta, tell me are you more active as town or scum? Do you make cases and move on to other things you find scummy or do you take one thing and run with it all game long?
Link to examples if so

1) DOMO was doing it in a way were it dominated the thread though, and me hoping for the modkill was a clumsy way of me wanting a flip but not wanting to be on a TW wagon at that time

2) I hadn't realised, and I think he would have if Bulba hadn't been at L-1

It's not meta, if you directly engage any player, they will become more active. And my activity is inconsistent as both alignments, it depends on the strength of any reads I have and my general engagement in the game. I will only really make cases if I feel really strongly about a scumread and no one else is really going after that person, or if I have to i.e. LyLo etc...

[Not_Mafia]

My work/RL related reasons for inactivity have passed, right now my reads are kinda hazy and flip dependent, Bulba and Pasch flips in particular would help me.

[Not_Mafia]

My work/RL related reasons for inactivity have passed, right now my reads are kinda hazy and flip dependent, Bulba and Pasch flips in particular would help me.

why them specifically?

Dominant counterwagons and points of discussion he whole game, will tell me if my perspective on the game is on point or way out.

1) DOMO was doing it in a way were it dominated the thread though, and me hoping for the modkill was a clumsy way of me wanting a flip but not wanting to be on a TW wagon at that time

Ok so notice that despite me practically begging for a wreck flip, I was against the idea of modkill. That might suggest a different agenda. Scum knew wreck was town, so naturally they have less problem with a modkill than town.

Also, why would you NOT be on a wagon if you want a flip? Just because I'm tunnelling? If you think he's scum, then vote for him. If not, then tell me to stfu. But don't hope for a flip while not joining the wagon, because that fucking stinks.

nm is not looking good here.

I knew we needed the flip to progress the game but it was a wagon I was reluctant to be on so I was hoping the mod would make my decision for me. I'm not saying it's logical because it isn't, it was my feeling about the lynch.

[Not_Mafia]

You're assuming town is going to be rational and/or act with their head 100% of the time

[Not_Mafia]

It's not like I danced about the thread saying @MOD HOUSE CLAIMED SCUM WITH OTHERS MODKILL MODKILL MODKILL BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD, I saw an inevitable unfolding I knew neeeded to happen sooner rather than later for the health of the game but I also knew I didn't want to be a part of, so when House made that post I was relieved I wouldn't have to bother making that leap

[Not_Mafia]

inevitable lynch*

[Not_Mafia]

This is exactly the same logic flaw you used against House, you were so sure he was scum because he kept doing stupid things, and this is going to end exactly the same way it did with House. Scum do stupid things, town do stupid things, but this isn't road to rome, it's scum who cares about people knowing they've done stupid things.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm not going to repeat myself, if you're going to move back to "Town shouldn't want this" over and over again, then I'm going to point you back to my response, I'm not going to let this take over the whole thread and have Day 2.1.

"Town should be doing this" and "Town will do this" are not the same thing, scum want to look town, town is town, you should have learnt this with House's flip, but we're going to go down the same rabbit hole.

[Not_Mafia]

Yes House was scummy, but it was the way he was being scummy that made him town, he was unapolagetic in his scumminess, he wasn't playing to survive. Mafia isn't about some sort of straight up quantification of scumminess, you're not looking at how I could reasonably anticipate the reception to my explanation and assessing how I would explain it as scum. You 're just honing in on "not behaving how town should; scum".

[Not_Mafia]

You 're just honing in on "not behaving how town should; more likely to be scum".

fyp

This functionally the same, and not a response to my post

[Not_Mafia]

What is the distinction beyond the extra words?

[Not_Mafia]

What is the distinction beyond the extra words?

the level of certainty, mostly. domo is not certain about who is scum.

So I'm his biggest scumread, but he's not calling me 100% scum. I've never said he's doing the latter and that does nothing to change my argument, this is semantics.

[Not_Mafia]

Everything after the words "no it isn't" has literally nothing to do with my post, and how you interpreted my post as some sort of argument he should be calling me 100% scum is beyond me.

Now, either quote where I said he called me 100% scum, or explain how my argument hinges on that.

[Not_Mafia]

That's not what I'm calling semantics Domo. What I'm calling semantics is Exact saying I'm warping your read because you haven't called me 100% scum, I'm asking him to show me where I've said you were, or how that means I'm warping your read.

[Not_Mafia]

you are hedging so much, and continuing down a line of inquiry that does nothing to scumhunt! who is scum? is it domo? if you think so, why aren't you voting for him? your posts read hedgy and unwilling to commit to scumreads, just theorychat and semantics that does very little for town. do some scumhunting!

Please just respond to my post instead of this continued evasion. You've accused me of warping Domo's read, back this up., this isn't theorychat, this is me asking to prove you're not just opportunistically pulling this out of your arse.

[Not_Mafia]

Ok well you're wrong about it being semantics, there is a distinction between your post and my fyp. You are suggesting I am making definitive assumptions about how town behaves. I'm arguing that I'm adjusting probabilities in response to events.

nm, let's make some assumptions for the sake of argument. You are town and I suggested that I wanted wreck's flip while not voting for him. Do you at least consider that I'm more likely to be scum than I was before I made such a comment?

I'm saying you're using some idea of being able quantify scumminess as the basis of your reads, and it's a flawed premise, and it's what lead you to misread both House and myself.

As a standalone event, yes it is scummy, I'm not saying it isn't. House's behaviour in a vacuum is also scummy. This is not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm saying you're not looking at these in context or looking at scum motivation.

[Not_Mafia]

As a standalone event, yes it is scummy, I'm not saying it isn't. House's behaviour in a vacuum is also scummy. This is not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm saying you're not looking at these in context or looking at scum motivation.

Well you're clearly wrong in your final point here. Of course I'm looking at scum motivation. Wanting the modkill of someone you are arguing looks town is the opposite of town motivated. I'm struggling to see how it comes from a town mindset. I don't want modkills, even when it's my top scumread, and certainly not when it's a townread.

If you acknowledge that as a standalone event, that your actions are scummy, then you should understand that it at least makes you more likely than you were to be scum, that your scum equity just went up, from the pov of uninformed town. So my premise is not flawed. It's just that recent results are unfavourable.

Again, I did nothing to actually get House modkilled, this is not the action I'm talking about, I'm talking about me stating in thread I hoped for the modkill and my subsequent explanation. What's my motivation in posting something that it would be so easy to anticipate a negative reception for.

And this is why we're still having this argument, you're in this mindset of quantifying your reads, x scummy actions vs x+1 scummy actions, not looking at the player, what I'm trying to argue is that this approach to the game is what is causing you to misread me and House.

you are hedging so much, and continuing down a line of inquiry that does nothing to scumhunt! who is scum? is it domo? if you think so, why aren't you voting for him? your posts read hedgy and unwilling to commit to scumreads, just theorychat and semantics that does very little for town. do some scumhunting!

Please just respond to my post instead of this continued evasion. You've accused me of warping Domo's read, back this up., this isn't theorychat, this is me asking to prove you're not just opportunistically pulling this out of your arse.

look i misread that series of posts a little bit because my eyes glazed over when you started decrying real things as semantics. mea culpa. i still think you're scum, and that was easily the weakest point of my case! respond to the substance.

So what did you misread and how has your argument changed? What is the substance I'm supposed to be responding to? Sum it up for me.

the bold and the quoted don't match.
You stated a frustrated town read on tw at the end.
Not null
Not leaning scum
Town
Why would you think you need to be on the wagon at all. Fuck inevitable.

because I knew I couldn't stop the lynch, and that the longer it went on the more apathy inducing it would be in a game that was already suffering from it despite a day 1 scumflip

[Not_Mafia]

You're assuming town is going to be rational and/or act with their head 100% of the time

why would anyone assume that? town can be wrong. being wrong in and of itself isn't scummy. a town player can be wrong and push a bad case. this happens all the time, but the important thing isn't whether the case is correct or not, but what the motivation for making the case is in the first place. if you want to see a flip, vote it! why wouldn't you unless you wanted to distance yourself from it?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

well this post for one.

This is a general response to a post I made about a specific post from Domo where I felt he was doing this. I know why it's bad to assume town will always be rational, that's I said it as a counter to Domo's read. And I've explained several times why I said what I did about the House modkill.

So, since you apparently misread mine and Domo's exchange, what is your actual point against me, because I have no idea, and your continued off topic responses aren't helping.

[Not_Mafia]

I really don't have the motivation to deal with this death tunnel, it's the same old song as yesterday's lynch, we get a couple of players locked in on a tunnel train at the exclusion of all else and next thing scum have slipped on and we have one viable lynch, 2 days with low info town lynches and 2 free NK's for scum.

High active town, killed n1
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58899
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=50436

Low active, live to endgame
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=45060
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=58678

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: ExactScience

[Not_Mafia]

Farside asked for meta links so i posted meta links, you still haven't responded to my post before, you're just swooping in every now and again when you can find something even slightly tangential to my posts to discredit

[Not_Mafia]

whatever what?

[Not_Mafia]

Please direct me to your point Science, because I legitimately have no idea

[Not_Mafia]

I stuck to my early Xayzeck read in that Cabd game pretty hard, I was still questioning him after h claimed a cop guilty, if I remember any more befitting examples I'll post them

[Not_Mafia]

Farside, can you answer me this, why is science scumreading me?

[Not_Mafia]

Farside, can you answer me this, why is science scumreading me?

i scumread everyone, please don't take it personally.

I'm not taking anything personally. But I know why Domo and Farside are scumreading me, I have literally 0 idea why you're scumreading, beyond some after the fact sheeping of Farside

[Not_Mafia]

I could see science being some weird 3rd party that's not much fun to play, or perhaps miller, idk, but I'd be very surprised if a scum slot needed filling so much. I think it's pretty rude to replace into a game and then replace out without good reason, it's even more so when the slot role is significant. I mean gif replaced out of that slot. gif isn't some noob who took on more games than he could handle, he's a site reg. Why the fuck would gif replace into a scum slot and then not bother? I doubt very much that slot is scum.

From GiF's sig: ~On hiatus due to tight work schedules

Regardless, not only is this completely arbitrary, it's also wrong

I could just as easily say this

I'd be very surprised if a town slot needed filling so much. I think it's pretty rude to replace into a game and then replace out without good reason, it's even more so when the slot role is significant. I mean gif replaced out of that slot. gif isn't some noob who took on more games than he could handle, he's a site reg. Why the fuck would gif replace into a town slot and then not bother? I doubt very much that slot is town.

Why are you basing your entire read on this?

[Not_Mafia]

Spoiler: Replacement stats

Notes:

If a slot is replaced twice, that counts as one replaced slot and two replaced players. Therefore, the player rate cannot be any lower than the slot rate. A slot rate of 100% means that all 9 slots were replaced at least once. A player rate of 100% means that 9 players (from any slots) were replaced (so it can exceed 100%). I don't know which type of rate is better to use, though using both is useful (it tells us whether all the replacements came from one slot or were distributed amongst multiple slots). (Reminder: The Matrix6 setup has 9 players, hence why 9 appears in the previous.)

On average, games replace 3.0 slots with a standard deviation of 1.63, and 3.6 players with a standard deviation of 2.22.

Player	Slot replacement rate	Player replacement rate
Town Newbies	38.7%	46.7%
Scum Newbies	58.9%	73.4%
Total Newbies	43.1%	52.5%
Town SEs	27.7%	30.8%
Scum SEs	32.4%	34.2%
Total SEs	28.8%	31.6%
Town ICs	10.7%	11.4%
Scum ICs	15.8%	15.8%
Total ICs	11.8%	12.4%
All town	32.4%	38.2%
All scum	46.1%	55.1%
All players	35.5%	41.9%

I would also like to point out that my terrible memory is far from alignment indicative. If I forget that a scum slot needed replacing so much, that's me making a mistake, not me being scummy.

This doesn't explain why you have deemed chronic replace outs a town tell in the first place

[Not_Mafia]

You're basically conf towning a slot for reasons that are demonstrably wrong, it's not a matter of "understanding where you're coming from" .

[Not_Mafia]

You're

basically conf towning

calling a slot likely town for reasons that are demonstrably wrong, it's not a matter of "understanding where you're coming from" .

[Not_Mafia]

What you are calling a town tell is demonstrably wrong, chronic replacing out is not a towntell, this is a fact, one that has been show in thread. Yet you're still insisting on it, are you beginning to understand why your read doesn't look genuine?

[Not_Mafia]

and Domo, why is Science scumreading me? Science couldn't answer me, and neither could farside, and I still don't know.

[Not_Mafia]

I am? I thought I just said I was reaction baiting.

"What if?" was your response, which is fishy testing the waters in and of itself

notmafia is posting charts and graphs to show why I'm wrong.

Your point being? Come to think of it, I've been in this exact same situation before, a player claiming a townread on a slot because of their replace out, guess what my response was then? And guess what everyone flipped

and Domo, why is Science scumreading me? Science couldn't answer me, and neither could farside, and I still don't know.

From what I can see, science felt, like I did, that notmafia was being dishonest in his exchange with me.

Which he later retracted

you are hedging so much, and continuing down a line of inquiry that does nothing to scumhunt! who is scum? is it domo? if you think so, why aren't you voting for him? your posts read hedgy and unwilling to commit to scumreads, just theorychat and semantics that does very little for town. do some scumhunting!

Please just respond to my post instead of this continued evasion. You've accused me of warping Domo's read, back this up., this isn't theorychat, this is me asking to prove you're not just opportunistically pulling this out of your arse.

look i misread that series of posts a little bit because my eyes glazed over when you started decrying real things as semantics. mea culpa. i still think you're scum, and that was easily the weakest point of my case! respond to the substance.

Yet his vote is still inexplicably on me, seriously go back and read our exchange beyond that point and tell me why he's scumreading me

[Not_Mafia]

Your point being?

Come to think of it, I've been in this exact same situation before, a player claiming a townread on a slot because of their replace out, guess what my response was then? And guess what everyone flipped

Show me.

I want the bold answering first. I posted charts and graphs, what's your point?

Are you just pretending it doesn't say "i still think you're scum"?

Are you pretending I'm asking you a different question to what I am? Why is Science scumreading me? How is him saying "I still think you're scum" a reason I'm scum

PEDIT:

I don't know why science is scumreading you notmafia.

science, why are you scumreading notmafia?

Okay good, shouldn't this tell you something?

[Not_Mafia]

Okay good, shouldn't this tell you something?

It tells me he's not really thinking through what he posts. Which, incidentally, is a town tell.

Alternatively, he's pulling his read out his arse. This is actually your first thought? It's like you've just decided I'm scum at this point and just viewing everything through that lens

Your point being? Come to think of it, I've been in this exact same situation before, a player claiming a townread on a slot because of their replace out, guess what my response was then? And guess what everyone flipped

Show me.

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1516: Nihontō or Yōtō? - Game Over!

@Knell, 154
I would assume Manaic2 skipping out on this thread and being replaced meant he was not pulling the silent treatment as a scum tactic. The scum would eventually return to play his game if that was his point, while getting replaced would indicate the person was not invested in inactivity as a game approach. I do not feel Maniac2 has done enough in this game previous to his inactivity to justify a scummy usage of going inactive, and so I would look at this as a town tell.

Subject: Newbie 1516: Nihontō or Yōtō? - Game Over!

@Knell, 154
I would assume Manaic2 skipping out on this thread and being replaced meant he was not pulling the silent treatment as a scum tactic. The scum would eventually return to play his game if that was his point, while getting replaced would indicate the person was not invested in inactivity as a game approach. I do not feel Maniac2 has done enough in this game previous to his inactivity to justify a scummy usage of going inactive, and so I would look at this as a town tell.

Newbie replace out typically indicates they're more likely to be scum

Role	Slots	Slots replaced	Players replaced
Vanilla Townie	731	34.6%	41.7%
Jailkeeper	40	35.0%	37.5%
Cop	48	18.8%	22.9%
Doctor	41	34.1%	41.5%
1-Shot Bulletproof	43	20.9%	20.9%
Tracker	49	16.3%	16.3%
Mafia Goon	236	40.7%	50.0%
Mafia Roleblocker	36	33.3%	33.3%

The following is a z-score graph. 0 means "is exactly average". 1 means "is 1 standard deviation above average"; -1 means "is 1 standard deviation below average". In other words, high bars mean "more replaces", while low mean "less replaces".

Not a reason to scumread someone but it's even less of a reason to townread someone

Subject: Newbie 1516: Nihontō or Yōtō? - Game Over!

The Mafia team of

Madonna

and

Tammy

win![/b]

[Not_Mafia]

What part Pasch, because literally every other person who has voted me today is unable to explain why Science is scum reading me, including Science, and he's already had the chance to explain himself, his response after multiple evasions was "whatever".

[Not_Mafia]

Well in #35 in his ISO Science himself admits he misread mine and Domo's exchange so lets look at #36 and #37

Spoiler:

You're assuming town is going to be rational and/or act with their head 100% of the time

why would anyone assume that? town can be wrong. being wrong in and of itself isn't scummy. a town player can be wrong and push a bad case. this happens all the time, but the important thing isn't whether the case is correct or not, but what the motivation for making the case is in the first place. if you want to see a flip, vote it! why wouldn't you unless you wanted to distance yourself from it?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

well this post for one.

I really don't have the motivation to deal with this death tunnel, it's the same old song as yesterday's lynch, we get a couple of players locked in on a tunnel train at the exclusion of all else and next thing scum have slipped on and we have one viable lynch, 2 days with low info town lynches and 2 free NK's for scum.

High active town, killed n1
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58899
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=50436

Low active, live to endgame
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=45060
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=58678

ugh more meta arguments. if you're aware enough of your own meta to base things on it, those reads cannot be trusted.

#37 is him criticising meta as a defence, which might be relevant if I wasn't giving links Farside asked for, and I'd love to know what you think #36 has to do with my alignment

[Not_Mafia]

I just went through this exchange with Domo, and both him and farside were unable to actually tell me why Science is scumreading me. Are you being opportunistic or are you just not reading the thread?

[Not_Mafia]

Even if you missed that, are you seriously going to say that stuff like below is Science showing me being disingenuous and duplicitous?

Spoiler:

You're assuming town is going to be rational and/or act with their head 100% of the time

why would anyone assume that? town can be wrong. being wrong in and of itself isn't scummy. a town player can be wrong and push a bad case. this happens all the time, but the important thing isn't whether the case is correct or not, but what the motivation for making the case is in the first place. if you want to see a flip, vote it! why wouldn't you unless you wanted to distance yourself from it?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

no it isn't! the only way to ever call someone 100% scum is with a positive cop investigation! even the best scumread from a townie isn't going to be 100%!
are you 100% certain anyone is scum?

You're assuming town is going to be rational and/or act with their head 100% of the time

why would anyone assume that? town can be wrong. being wrong in and of itself isn't scummy. a town player can be wrong and push a bad case. this happens all the time, but the important thing isn't whether the case is correct or not, but what the motivation for making the case is in the first place. if you want to see a flip, vote it! why wouldn't you unless you wanted to distance yourself from it?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

And whilst you're at it you can explain where I was being evasive

[Not_Mafia]

Okay, reality check time, you can all thank me later:
@farside: domo's inabilty to count is not a scum tell. He's one of the towniest players in this game along side you.

This wasn't the issue, it was Domo giving a town read out on something completely arbitrary that had no basis in logic or reality, Domo later admitted himself he was bullshitting

@NM: I appreciate the charts and links and everything, but the fact that you saw a scum do this

once

does not make it a scum tell.[/vote]

I'm not calling it a scum tell, just countering Domo's "scum wouldn't do this as it narrows down their options" thing. I'm actually townreading Domo, perhaps less than earlier, I'll have to wait for that whole mess to sink in, but he's still definitely a townread.

I'm guessing the three of you are doing what the whole town has been doing this whole game, namely chasing your tails while the scum dance past you in plain sight, unbothered.

[/quote]

I am still absolutely down for a Pasch lynch, Currently I'd put him and Science as my top choices, followed by Bulba and doubleslap

[Not_Mafia]

Going through mastin's vca makes me want to vote Pasch but the Science slot was basically completely absent day 1

[Not_Mafia]

Actually I'm more interested in where this goes for various reasons

VOTE: Paschendale

[Not_Mafia]

Actually call my DOMO townread officially weaker, realised my "he seems like he sincerely believes his reads" reason for townreading included his now self admitted fabricated Science town read

[Not_Mafia]

Same difference, but yes that is what I meant.

But speaking of your Science read, if someone dayvigged me now and I flipped town, what would your Science read be? And where your vote move to?

[Not_Mafia]

Well review him now, because currently you're refusing to read a player based on some pseudo-pre flip associative theory. I don't think Bulba and Pasch are likely to be scum together, doesn't stop me having a scum read on both

[Not_Mafia]

Scum

Why would town retract his reasoning for a scumread yet inexplicably continue to push for that persons lynch here?

Less obnoxiously, he knew his reason was untenable and couldn't evade my questions forever, and farside and I already have cased him, you've even said it yourself, following his retraction, no one has any idea why he's scumreading me, yet he's still pushing for me.

[Not_Mafia]

So your scumread on him revolves entirely on the fact he won't explain why he's still scumreading you, right?

Won't or can't?

Why would town retract his reasoning for a scumread yet inexplicably continue to push for that persons lynch here?

You're not answering the question. You're not explaining what his scum motivation is. Instead you're just saying the opposite of what I say.

he knew his reason was untenable and couldn't evade my questions forever

I believe town are more likely to pull this kind of shit off rather than scum because

town is less likely to give a shit about what he posts.

For now, I'm just going to bold this, and hope that you figure out why.

Scum is more interested in consistency. More to the point, scum is very much interested in mislynches, which means not backing away from what isn't awful reasoning for a lynch.

His reasoning was borne of a misconception of our exchange, deliberate or otherwise, so why exactly was it non-awful?

I guess he could be doing it in the hope someone like me comes along and gives him town points for it. You lot like to think that scum play these wifom games. I happen to think that scum are just trying to obtain mislynches, and tend to stick to their guns a little more than town do.

As above, not why I think he retracted it, at least not the main reason.

[Not_Mafia]

That was what I was trying to get through to you about me posting that whole modkill thing in thread, and about House in general. I'm down for Bulba still, but would prefer Pasch though, remind me what your current read on him is, although I think you just recently mentioned it.

[Not_Mafia]

I just went through this exchange with Domo, and both him and farside were unable to actually tell me why Science is scumreading me. Are you being opportunistic or are you just not reading the thread?

No, it just apparently makes more sense to me than it does to them.

There was a lot more for you to respond to than this

[Not_Mafia]

I just went through this exchange with Domo, and both him and farside were unable to actually tell me why Science is scumreading me. Are you being opportunistic or are you just not reading the thread?

No, it just apparently makes more sense to me than it does to them.

There was a lot more for you to respond to than this

[Not_Mafia]

There was a lot more for you to respond to than this

No there wasn't. Cut the bullshit. I answered your question. And why would I care what you think of my reasons for suspecting you anyway? I'm not going to get your approval.

You didn't answer where I was being evasive for a start, or explain how the 2 posts you cited after he retracted what he was saying because he misread the thread showed me being "disingenuous and duplicitous".

I disagree about most of Science's argument about NM. He backtracked one of several reasons, and explained that it was based on a misreading. The rest of the arguments still stand, and I find them compelling and genuine.

What arguments? Because you're the only person in thread who seems to know. And if you're going to trot out the "why would I care about what you think?" argument, do it for Domo and Farside, I imagine they could be enticed back on to my wagon if the arguments we're all missing are so compelling.

[Not_Mafia]

pasch, yes bulba claimed it wasn't a crumb. That in itself is hugely scummy. Why would he do that? It didn't occur to him that I'm scum trying to rolefish him because he knows it. If he's town, why doesn't he stop to consider my motive for pointing the finger at his crumb? I've said all this already.

What if it's just not a crumb and neither of you are lying?

@NM: I guess we'll simply never see eye to eye and no matter how much you distort what I or Science say, you'll hardly agree that you're likely to be scum.

@Farside: I don't really see the awkwardness, and

I don't know how you don't see duplicity in NM's responses.

Keep in mind, I was already suspicious of NM before all this, and Science's argument merely bolstered my suspicions.

Then show her, as I said earlier her and Domo were the ones who started the wagon on me today, if you can show my duplicity then I'm sure they'll be open to hopping back on, and I'll be on L-1 if you do. I'm not asking you to show me I'm scum, I'm asking you to show people who were scumreading me why I'm scum, I've said it twice now, no more excuses.

[Not_Mafia]

I thought what Bulba posted was a crumb at the time, his reaction was meh, it was the reaction of either VT or scum, if he ended up claiming PR I'd find it worse, I can see what DOMO means but don't find it that incriminating.

Meanwhile, can someone other than me or Kitty call Pash out on his obvious bs in regards to Science, he won't be able to trot out some lame excuse then.

[Not_Mafia]

2) You're not wrong, but Bulba's presence in the game has largely diminished since the early game and I trust my early reads more than ones I develop later

And I'm sure holidays and me being busy/apathetic d2 had nothing to do with that.

Yeah I wasn't actually accusing you of anything alignment wise here, guilty conscience?

I saw an inevitable unfolding I knew neeeded to happen sooner rather than later for the health of the game but I also knew I didn't want to be a part of, so when House made that post I was relieved I wouldn't have to bother making that leap

Why would you be so concerned about whether or not you were on the wagon?

VOTE: ExactScience

Why?

Do you still need these answering, I'm guessing you made these as went along?

[Not_Mafia]

This screams inventor.

Since I wasn't actively looking for town PRs,

I didn't really notice this or think about it much, but that's true, it does look like a soft claim. And it's a pretty useful role she's claiming there. Weird that she wasn't night killed, isn't it?

I missed this the first go around but this is awful

[Not_Mafia]

I saw an inevitable unfolding I knew neeeded to happen sooner rather than later for the health of the game but I also knew I didn't want to be a part of, so when House made that post I was relieved I wouldn't have to bother making that leap

Why would you be so concerned about whether or not you were on the wagon?

VOTE: ExactScience

Why?

Do you still need these answering, I'm guessing you made these as went along?

I did do these as I went along, but I normally delete points if they've been answered already. They're not as important now, but I would still like some answers if you've got them.

I addressed these multiple times, nonetheless

1) Because no one has any idea why he is scumreading me, ostensibly Pasch does, but it seems he would prefer to keep this information private

2)

It's not like I danced about the thread saying @MOD HOUSE CLAIMED SCUM WITH OTHERS MODKILL MODKILL MODKILL BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD, I saw an inevitable unfolding I knew neeeded to happen sooner rather than later for the health of the game but I also knew I didn't want to be a part of, so when House made that post I was relieved I wouldn't have to bother making that leap

And other quotes, Domo focused in on this for a little while, if you read my iso just before then you'll see our exchange in regards to it.

[Not_Mafia]

no joke, treat L-2 as L-1 when he's around

Your assistance is required

[Not_Mafia]

Pasch jumping on literally anything even resembling a wagon today except for Science's is worth a look in if he flips scum

[Not_Mafia]

But maybe he realises he's lynched and this is scum theatre, but I doubt it, gonna split the difference and call doubleslap my biggest read

[Not_Mafia]

I used Hi Jump Kick

[Not_Mafia]

We did discuss it, he was one shot and the obvious lynch all day , plus he has a period of time where it was mod confirmed he was getting modkilled, in which he fingered other users. Maybe I'll have to eat my hat postgame but I don't think he had a guilty.

[Not_Mafia]

So Exakt Science hasn't accessed the site since the 27t . Realoswd my doubleslap read was shitty PoE so happy to lynch between this and Domo today to finally sort that out, will look at VCs and Pasch/Pine associations sometime before the end of the week

VOTE: Bulbazak

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Domo

Not sure why you'd put yourself in autolose as scum, but you're lying

[Not_Mafia]

Where have you found out that the JOAT had a rolecop?

[Not_Mafia]

Misread your post. But that "gambit" stunk regardless, weren't you confident in your read yesterday?

[Not_Mafia]

Domo y u trollin?

[Not_Mafia]

He already claimed VT a while ago

[Not_Mafia]

Just remembered how shitty Aronis looked. Hmmmmmm

[Not_Mafia]

Aronis' ISO:

Shitty pushes on Kitty and Shiny, Pasch and Pine's biggest detractors respectively
Pine and Pasch both null reads, until Pasch received pressure, he then became bad town
Flying under the radar, lots of largely pointless posts, until producing wall posts for being called out for it
Dubious replace out

VOTE: Perpetual Nonsense

[Not_Mafia]

Bert I've never been scum in our games that I can recall, am I wrong/what are you basing the meta off?

[Not_Mafia]

Bert I've never been scum in our games that I can recall, am I wrong/what are you basing the meta off?

because you looked legitimately lost and never really scum hunted in 1611 (that game where Who was a 3rd party and so was molla). that was a similar situation to this game, where it is a longggggggggggg game to read after replacing in. and in 284 (that nightless game phokdapolees ran), you scumhunted there

im bad at meta but that is my take on things, as it is getting into 1 vs 6 so even delusional opinions must be shared

Oh

that

game

[Not_Mafia]

Bored

VOTE: Bulbazak

If not this then PN

[Not_Mafia]

I lurk because I am bored

[Not_Mafia]

Thanks for modding ArcAngel, this was a very fun game from day 3 when Farside and Domo broke my apathy lock, my play today was to evade an NK, hope Kitty got killed or I blocked the kill, and put the game in autowin, didn't know how to handle PR spec and mass claim talk without coming off as PR so I just lurked