Mini 1657 — Taylor Swift UPick — Game Over

[Bookitty]

I love all of you very much.

Except Not_Mafia. His vote on me is just another example of his lack of human feelings and his overall scumminess. He's the sort of villain who helps little old ladies halfway across the street and kicks over Hello Kitty toy displays.

For shame, Not_Mafia. For shame.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Bookitty]

<3 <3 <3

So awesome.

[Bookitty]

fallin' for the old "bad drawing next to hello kitty" trick i see, boo

...he'll only break your heart...

They all do.

[Bookitty]

soren is town. discuss

Because he spotted and commented on your shameless buddying?

Yeah, maybe.

Do you think Antihero is town too?

[Bookitty]

I don't. I think Anti is still in RVS and acting as I'd expect for that phase.

I think Soren made the first step toward pulling us out of RVS. I tend to find that townish, so I think Soren is definitely lean-town for it. I don't know Soren at all, though. (Soren, do you prefer being called he or she?)

[Bookitty]

Look at the number of votes on Antihero, please.

[Bookitty]

do you have any other reads at this point?

No. I like a lot of the people who have posted so far but I don't usually get too much out of RVS in terms of reads and this game hasn't been the exception.

I'm kind of thinking that some people haven't even posted, but I did not check that yet.

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could we have a gentle and kind prod on Aristophanes and Om of the Nom, please?

In other news, I'm pretty sure Endless Possibilities is town. Soren too.

[Bookitty]

I saw all that as obviously RVS playfulness, not shameless buddying.

It can be both, can't it?

In this case, I think EP is town so buddying doesn't bother me at all, shameless or otherwise.

[Bookitty]

What's the town read on Endless?

I would expect way more defensiveness from scum in responding to my joking accusation that he was shamelessly buddying me. That didn't happen, so lean-town. The other reason I don't want to point out right now but you may know it anyway.

[Bookitty]

I'm liking Elyse for town. I don't see the weirdness; her reactions look really unforced to me.

On the other hand, though, I looked at LucianRoy again because killerjester said he had given reads and I surely didn't remember any of substance (which in itself isn't all that surprising). I see a lot of IIOA there but not a ton of relevant content.

I'd like to hear more about this specific game and less about the theory of Mafia from LucianRoy. My vote on Not_Mafia was an RVS thing, but if he doesn't contribute more it can go right back there too.

VOTE: LucianRoy

[Bookitty]

Who do you think is scummy, Aristophanes?

[Bookitty]

What do you make of all those votes on you anti?

@Soren: What do you expect to learn from Anti's answer to this question?

[Bookitty]

I love all of you very much.

Except Not_Mafia. His vote on me is just another example of his lack of human feelings and his overall scumminess. He's the sort of villain who helps little old ladies halfway across the street and kicks over Hello Kitty toy displays.

For shame, Not_Mafia. For shame.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I don't know why there was a need to tell us that you love all of us. Especially for the first post of the game.

And then proceeds with a OMGUS vote?

Why are you just bringing this up now?

Are you familiar with the concept of RVS and the general attitude displayed during that time period?

Why do you think I told everyone i loved them except for Not Mafia, Soren?

[Bookitty]

Yep. I'm asking you why you think I did that, since you clearly went back all the way to the start of the game to find something to ask about.

Why did you do that, Soren? If it was something you were curious about, why didn't you ask about it at the time it happened?

What's your theory on why I would do that?

[Bookitty]

Okay, that's at least twice that you've asked questions for which you don't seem to have any reasoning or any idea what you would do with the answers thereto.

If you read the entire post in which that comment appears, you could note that the post and the vote were part of a joke directed at Not Mafia, with whom I have played before.

VOTE: Soren

I didn't particularly like you sheeping me onto LucianRoy and then backing your own reasons while not moving your vote. I don't like your "trying to look busy" questions that don't seem designed to elicit anything even remotely alignment indicative.

[Bookitty]

I think that you are trying to look busy by asking questions that don't actually produce anything useful even if they were answered.

Your question to Antihero I'm going to leave alone because he may still answer it and then you could point to his amazingly useful answer and say, "Neener Neener" to me in a smug fashion.

Your question to me, however, I feel okay about answering. If you go back (way back) in the game and ask people (including me) about a post that is clearly a RVS joke, they're going to think you're reaching pretty far. Either you thought I was buddying the entire game (minus Not Mafia) by telling them that I loved them, which is pretty silly imo, or you had no real reason to think that was a point of interest in my ISO. Either way, asking about it was weird, especially since you then backed off of it by saying you didn't have any expectation about what I would say. If you didn't think it was a scumtell, why would you ask? What did you gain from my answer? Why did it matter that my vote on Not Mafia was OMGUS? If it didn't matter, why did you point it out?

Asking lots of questions when you don't care about the answers is a pretty common hallmark of scum play.

You sheeped me onto Lucian pretty fast, but you then backed off that completely while keeping your vote right there. The whole interaction between the two of you is odd. I don't like it and I don't trust it.

I think you're scummy for it.

[Bookitty]

yo Bookitty, can you do me a favor and look through Soren's ISO in this game?

I did that. I didn't glean a lot from it, because it's pretty obviously one of the first games he played here. It's pretty jam-packed with newbie questions or questions intended to look newbie, which I agree is not the same situation as in this game. Soren is asking more pointed questions here while still maintaining all innocence and disavowing any agenda with those questions:

What do you make of all those votes on you anti?

I didn't like this because Antihero hasn't actually posted much in this game. No one has explained their vote on him very well. His vote is on LucianRoy, whom Soren was voting earlier for "meta" reasons that apparently both of them now agree were not very strong. LucianRoy is clearly not immune to OMGUS since he is scumreading two people currently on his wagon and one who was; it seems a little out of place for him to resolutely resist the same OMGUS urge where Soren is concerned.

I don't know why there was a need to tell us that you love all of us. Especially for the first post of the game.

And then proceeds with a OMGUS vote?

This was interesting because I was voting LucianRoy at the time. It's like Soren is only interested in asking questions among the people who were voting LucianRoy. Soren also says he just wanted to see what I would say -- again, not owning the suspicion that is pretty clear in the question imo.

It's not just the questions for me, though I watch for that more since Farside pointed out it is one of her scumhunting tools. (Yes, I shamelessly borrow from other players.) Soren hasn't had any strong views -- in fact, he sheeped me onto LucianRoy and then immediately backed off his own vote without unvoting. Soren eventually unvotes and says this:

After going over some of your posts again, I didn't really put much thought when I voted for you. I was mainly influenced by other people's reasons for voting for you.

I see what looks to me to be inexpert distancing between LucianRoy and Soren. LucianRoy is playing it a bit better, but the whole interaction is off because Soren backs off far too quickly. It's also possible LucianRoy-scum is buddying Soren-town, but I'm not so confident there.

My one caveat is that it could be due to the two of them being friends from previous games. Interactions can be a little odd in those cases; the problem I have with just chalking it up to that is the meta discussion between the two, which doesn't seem particularly friendly at first.

@Endless Possibilities: Do you think that Soren is typically pretty wishy-washy on his own opinions or generally easily led? Do you have experience of him as town in a completed game? I read this:

Mini 1650: Greatest Idea Mafia

and Soren seemed a lot more forceful in that as town. His questions were much more pointed toward alignment and less busy-seeming. I don't see much other meta, but if you have it, I'll read it.

[Bookitty]

given my 2nd strongest scum read is fucking Anti just for not doing anything at all besides one somewhat-off-looking push.

I just finished a game in which Anti did basically nothing throughout the course of the game and was Mafia. (Link available on request, it's Quil's SmallTown.) I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for right now because he's already done more here imo than he did in the course of his stay in that game, but yeah, this is right.

[Bookitty]

Hmmm. How have I buddied Aristophanes? To my recollection he's barely posted at all.

LucianRoy: Why do you think Soren is town, please?

@Not_Mafia: Do you have any reads yet? Could you share them with us, please?

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I see that.

@Darklight: Why was Aristophanes sheeping me suspicious and Soren's previous sheep wasn't, please?

[Bookitty]

would anyone else be up for flashlynching Anti if he goes another 48 hours without doing anything? I doubt this is just a case of him being busy given he's posting elsewhere.

Maybe. I'm still trying to figure out LucianRoy right now.

I really hate the lurk-to-victory tactic, though, and I've seen it pretty recently from him.

Do you know if he prefers playing scum or town, EP?

[Bookitty]

I would think he lurks as scum because he likes playing town more (this is generally what happens when you get people who lurk as scum but are extremely active as town). that's part of the reason I'm suggesting to flashlynch him :p

I buy this logic. Sure, if he doesn't post something substantive in the next couple of days, I'm in.

I still want to hear from LucianRoy why Soren is town to him though.

Why do you think multiball, Not_Mafia?

[Bookitty]

Why do you think multiball, Not_Mafia?

How would you know if it's multi ball?

[Bookitty]

Okay, Soren can be town I guess. I think scum would be a lot more careful about sheeping (or less obvious) when scumreading someone else for doing the same.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LucianRoy

I really would like an answer to my question. It can't be the reason I just gave, though, because that wasn't applicable when I asked it originally.

[Bookitty]

You're misusing the term policy lynch imo. Policy lynches are based in meta, so far as I understand it, and essentially consist of voting someone because of their behaviour in other games. For instance:

Bookitty is a jerk who never contributes in any of her games as scum or town. Therefore, we don't need to see any of her play. Let's just lynch her and get rid of her right now before she ruins this game for everybody.

THAT is a policy lynch.

Antihero is lurking. I've seen him lurk like this before as scum. That's based on his behaviour in THIS game as compared to his behaviour in other games. It's a meta reason and a non-contribution reason, not a policy lynch reason.

If you don't want to vote him for that, okay, but don't dismiss it as a policy lynch.

[Bookitty]

@Not_Mafia: First you claim scum and then you ninja my post? IGMEOY.

[Bookitty]

For an example of Antihero-scum lurking, here's a link:

Quil's Smalltown

[Bookitty]

Do you have an example of Anti being an active town?

Yep.

Micro 340: Weeaboo U-Pick

Bonus: I was scum in that game if you want scum meta on me.

[Bookitty]

I'm not really sure I don't approve the Aristo lynch more given the bad posting and the vanishing act, but I'm okay with this. I want LucianRoy to answer me still too.

Giving a little more time for a response, but I'll be joining you.

[Bookitty]

@Aristophanes: Could you favour us with a reads list, please? I would be most grateful.

[Bookitty]

Happy scumday, Antihero!

[Bookitty]

Who were the scum on the Anti wagon?

SEL

I've actually thinking EP was scum for a while, but that was just based on role speculation (we're due for a temp-Hatred to be scum.)

Soren Elyse and LucianRoy? Some permutation of those?

(Sorry, my psychic abilities are on the fritz.)

[Bookitty]

Also, as implied, If Bookitty thinks Anti is scum, then why isn't she voting him?
Maybe I'm interpreting the "happy scumday" post incorrectly...

Your scumday is the date on which you first joined the site. Antihero's scumday was March 30, the day I wished him a happy scumday. It's got nothing to do with my opinion of his alignment in this game.

[Bookitty]

I provided the link to a game in which Anti lurked and beetlejuiced as scum (beetlejuicing is when you don't post for a while but pop up when your name is mentioned or a wagon starts on you). I actually think EP is pretty town right now, so I was willing to go along with the quicklynch based on my own meta read and Anti's complete lack of anything useful in this thread. I wanted to give him a fair chance to post, but he's squandered even that chance imo.

I feel like Antihero is avoiding this game specifically even with the huge wagon that built up on him. I haven't a clue about his real-life situation, but I don't understand what he's doing here if he is actually town.

I'm pretty sure I indicated I would vote Anti if he didn't show up and post. Just because I don't pile on a wagon or quickhammer doesn't indicate disapproval of that wagon, for the record.

[Bookitty]

Saturday, March 28:

I would think he lurks as scum because he likes playing town more (this is generally what happens when you get people who lurk as scum but are extremely active as town). that's part of the reason I'm suggesting to flashlynch him :p

I buy this logic. Sure, if he doesn't post something substantive in the next couple of days, I'm in.

Sunday, March 29:

2:46 p.m.

For an example of Antihero-scum lurking, here's a link:

Quil's Smalltown

3:03 p.m.

Do you have an example of Anti being an active town?

Yep.

Micro 340: Weeaboo U-Pick

Bonus: I was scum in that game if you want scum meta on me.

4:58 p.m.

I'm not really sure I don't approve the Aristo lynch more given the bad posting and the vanishing act, but I'm okay with this. I want LucianRoy to answer me still too.

Giving a little more time for a response, but I'll be joining you.

10:06 p.m.

>> (6) Antihero — Not_Mafia, Elyse, Soren, Endless Possibilities, LucianRoy (L-1) <<

Then Anti is going to be replaced. Then he comes back and promises content.

Are you even reading this game, LucianRoy? Because it doesn't seem to me like you are. This push in particular looks completely manufactured.

Care to explain?

[Bookitty]

Because I said I would in the first place. Read the first post I quoted to you.

You can't possibly be this oblivious.

[Bookitty]

Endless Possibilities is town.
Pretty sure Elyse is town too.
Not sure about Empking saying he wasn't voting Anti ever, but I'm thinking about it.

These are pinging me:

LucianRoy: "The Meta read on Anti was okay for a while, but now he's basically lynch-bait due to not even being here."

Aristophanes: "I see Anti is pretty close to lynch, but also hasn't been here.
Are these things related or did he do something before disappearing that was scummy?"

I can get the posts for those if needed, but I'm kind of pressed for time just at the moment so if you need them, let me know.

[Bookitty]

I had basically no read on Om and Ika hasn't really done anything except call the hammer on what looks to me to be a pretty spurious wagon, so ... null?

Why the sudden interest in my opinion on that slot?

[Bookitty]

A) Why did you enter the thread with reads on people that weren't even on the wagon? Was this in response to my "vote somebody who wasn't on the train"?
B) Nice cherry picking, but pointing out that someone's lynch-bait, which he definitely was, doesn't really strike me as a scum-ping, (from what you imply).
On top of that, I still ended up voting him, but somehow you didn't.

A: I gave town reads on the people whose entry to the Anti wagon made them more town than others. Why is that a problem for you?

B: I didn't need to, did I? By your own statements earlier, I had pushed his wagon more than just about anyone else and I already had the argument with you about why I was waiting for him to post something. Also, I don't care if you aren't pinged by your own posts, shockingly enough.

[Bookitty]

Why is it spurious?

I have a scumread on LucianRoy. I also have it from Soren that LR is a "town leader" and I see him trying to take on that role here without having earned it yesterday. You pick someone seemingly at random who was off-wagon and LucianRoy sheeps you immediately follows up with a case on that slot. It's weird and offputting.

[Bookitty]

It would've been better if you did. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

Why would it have been better if I did? He got lynched anyway, right?

Why should I be voting you if you soft-claimed? I'm not incapable of making or admitting a mistake and I honestly don't care if you scumread me, so solicit votes elsewhere, please.

I'm trying to reread in between working on writing deadlines. Still think Aristo is scummy, but if I don't come up with anything better I'm going to sheep my strongest townread. No points for guessing who that is

[Bookitty]

Not that I would answer that question.
Don't bother asking.

Look, either you are confirmable or not. You're not confirmed yet, so I'm willing to wait and see.

You didn't answer MY question, though. Why was it vital that I vote Antihero yesterday for the good of town? I pushed his lynch, I said what I was going to do -- why do you think it was so harmful to town that I didn't vote him? For Pete's sakes, he voted himself. I didn't HAVE to vote him, so why are you on about that?

[Bookitty]

If this is what you mean?

Bookitty I will have to rely on you here for a bit since you are aware of anti's meta better than me. But what do you think the lurking as scum meta stems from? The sacredness of not wanting to slip up? The carefulness of not wanting to reveal his potential team mates if he gets lynch and flips scum?

I don't have a clue. Anti doesn't confide in me about his reasons -- we are not really close or anything.

In general, I think scum are more lurky because they want to fly under the radar. That wouldn't be specific to Anti though; it is just easier not to draw attention if you don't post much and you post safe opinions.

[Bookitty]

Meh, I think KJ is right on pressuring Aristo.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Bookitty]

Okay, LucianRoy. I have a couple things to say.

Drawn on Arrival just ended, allowing me to say something about Ika. He lurks a lot as scum, as that game will attest. Since he replaced in, he hasn't contributed a thing. I'm watching that slot and if he continues this trend, my vote is going there.

What's the scum motivation for pushing Antihero's lynch and then not stepping in to vote him to take the towncred? Was he NOT going to be lynched without my vote? (Hint: he was lynched anyway -- just letting you know.) If I were scum, why wouldn't I jump on that vote to ensure that you would think I was town? Why would I push for his lynch in the first place if I were scum?

What is your deal anyway? It really seems to me that you're trying to push the idea of me as scum without getting your own hands dirty with a vote and without giving reasons that make ANY kind of sense. So what's your major malfunction?

I'd really like to know.

[Bookitty]

And we all know that Boo is highly critical of sheep votes. In this sense, I dislike the hypocrisy.

Can you provide examples of this in general? I objected to Soren's sheep of ME, yes, but this is not true in general. So prove it or stop making sweeping statements that are not true.

[Bookitty]

Empking said he wouldn't ever vote Antihero AFTER Anti went to L-1 and looked to be the most likely lynch. That doesn't look like a scum move to me. Why make a stand-out remark like that when Anti was clearly on the way down? It would make more sense to vote Anti as scum since he was a lost cause anyway, right?

So I'm reading Empking as town after looking at the chronology there.

[Bookitty]

I didn't imply Anti as an option. I supported EP's push on him with evidence. That's flat out making him an option, not implying anything. Reread my ISO. I think I was a pretty strong voice for Anti-scum and provided both town-meta and scum-meta for him.

Why did you vote for Anti, precisely, LucianRoy? Can you explain your scumread on Anti to me in more detail? Do you think you deserve towncred for that?

What happened to your read on Aristo, LucianRoy? What has changed between yesterday and today?

The sheep thing is stupid. Someone sheeping me makes me suspicious of them because they seem to be borrowing my reasons in lieu of giving their own. That's not a general indictment of sheeping by any means and it looks trumped-up and fake to me.

[Bookitty]

I don't care what your read on me is, LucianRoy, except as it relates to your own alignment. I don't care what KillerJester thinks either, because I think he's right that votes building up on Aristo are the only way to get him to post in this game. If he has an issue with it, I'm sure Killer can speak for himself.

You said the same "lynchbait" thing about Antihero, actually, without unvoting him. Why don't you want Aristo pressured? Wouldn't his flip still give you a better idea about my alignment, like yesterday?

[Bookitty]

However, me not voting him makes me an obvious target today because he flipped scum.

Ein minuten, bitte. Aren't you townreading LucianRoy right now? And didn't he go after me specifically because I didn't vote Antihero (though I provided evidence for the wagon)? Isn't that exactly what you're accusing Elyse of right now?

Do you see the problem I'm having with your reasoning here?

[Bookitty]

Unless I'm blind there's a lot more to his case than that.

Can you elaborate? If there's much more, I'd love to hear it.

[Bookitty]

How is that a case, DarkLight?

What was LucianRoy's case against me today other than that I didn't vote Antihero? What was his case yesterday?

Presenting a data table provides absolutely zero information about context. Surely you can do better than that.

Making a table does not constitute making a case or even providing information. I'll bet I mentioned SmurfYou more than 20 times and I haven't thought they were scum once during this game.

[Bookitty]

Rub it in, why don't you?

No, I think you were right and I was wrong. I grovel in my shame. :p

[Bookitty]

Making a table does not constitute making a case or even providing information. I'll bet I mentioned

EndlessPossibilities

more than 20 times and I haven't thought they were scum once during this game.

Sorry, brain meltdown. I hate writing deadlines.

[Bookitty]

Meh.

VOTE: ika

Lurking to victory is not a strategy I want to reward.

[Bookitty]

Ika does that as scum. I have direct and recent meta experience of his lurkiness as scum, which I think I already mentioned. If not, check Drawn on Arrival, which recently ended. (I can get the link if you need it, but I'm honestly too sleepy and lazy to do it right now.)

[Bookitty]

Meh.

VOTE: ika

Lurking to victory is not a strategy I want to reward.

So you move from somebody who has just been prodded?

Yes. I don't see a single way in which my vote on Aristo is going to be more effective than a prod from Marquis. Either Aristo is going to respond to the prod (at which point my vote will still be under my control to do with what I will) or he's not going to and he's going to be replaced. I would unvote anyway at that point to let the replacement read, so why waste time? My pressure vote is pointless once someone has been prodded. Marquis > Me.

Can you and Espeonage please explain your reasoning for squawking in such horror because I moved my vote? Because your logic is faulty at best.

[Bookitty]

Just chiming in to ask. Is there more to that Boo? Ika does that.

Are you caught up with this game and ready to participate, or am I just a special little snowflake whose posts you read compulsively, Espe?

[Bookitty]

I'm not going to OMGUS-vote you, Espe, but I think it's interesting that you pop out of the woodwork to protest a vote on Ika when this game is your lowest priority. No. Interesting isn't the right word. It's suspicious! That's it.

What's the point of pressuring someone who is being prodded? You kind of dodged that question.

[Bookitty]

Dodge that question a bit harder, Espe.

I'm voting Ika because I have personal meta of him lurking JUST like this as scum. Can you provide near-universal scum meta that shows he doesn't? Because I know for a fact that you can't.

Lurking IS scummy. I've never made any secret about my dislike for people who sign up for a game and then can't be bothered to play. I have just one vote and I'll use it the way I want to. You were fine with me voting Aristo; can you sum up the case on him, please?

What's the point of voting someone who has just been prodded, Espe? Tell me, for I so would like to know.

[Bookitty]

Do you know that Aristo doesn't have a reason?

What did you think of ika encouraging people to vote the Aristo wagon, apparently in anticipation of being the hammer, without contributing anything of value here?

Do you think Aristo's way of lurking was more offensive than Ika's way of lurking?

[Bookitty]

If you assume prod=replacement then sure, but that's an odd thing to think.

It's not even necessary to assume that.

Aristophanes needs to post actual content or he's likely to be lynched, imo. If he's prodded and he doesn't deliver with something substantial, there's nothing stopping me from moving my vote right back. If I don't like what he posts regardless of its length or depth, then I can vote him again. If he chooses to replace out or is force-replaced for inactivity, that's not going to happen for at least a couple of days. Meanwhile my vote sits there useless.

In the meantime, I can use my vote to pressure someone else who has contributed next to nothing and who has indicated a wish to hammer the leading wagon (yeah, that's how I am interpreting the "two more votes" thing) to actually provide actual content. Already that's been more successful than just planting my vote on Aristo and watering the wagon with my tears and recriminations. Espeonage has finally graced us with his presence and expressed some opinions, no matter how misguided or opportunistic I might think they are. I am pretty sure that wouldn't have happened if my vote had just stayed on Aristo.

[Bookitty]

A 'pressure vote' provides no pressure, and waters down the efficacy of future votes as nobody can trust them to stick. [Were getting into theory now, so I'll drop it.]

I don't want to bog down the thread, but I would like to talk to you about this after the game if possible. I think differently and I want to bounce my ideas off you since you have an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks!

[Bookitty]

I feel like you're just dodging the question about the validity of your meta read on ika.

I can't talk about all of it, so yeah, you're right there I'm sharing what I can.

[Bookitty]

You really don't have to take my word for it anyway, because I just remembered who pushed that ika-lurker-lynch in Drawn on Arrival

Ugh, I'm obviously not getting my lynch on BRO, so I'll have to compromise and actually read the game.
Mollie, how sure of you on this Ika read?

can remember what ika has said? are you feeling the beloved presence of ikaness in this thread? no?

he is probs scum then. if not I get to yell at him for dragging his feet in postgame so win win for me.

wtf why did that post.

ANYWAYS THIS IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY

ika is no shrinking violet in large games in fact I think he downright used to them. which is why your argument looks so bad.

I am scumreading him cos he is subdued and there is a lack of rolefishing in his posts. like i feel that town!ika wld be crawling all over mastina and you. is he? NO! i have actually learned a great deal from him and I am not seeing 1 thing from him that he has taught me.

I think PirateMollie has a really good handle on Ika's meta (way better than mine for sure). She thinks if he lurks, he's scum. He flipped scum in that game for sure.

[Bookitty]

That still doesn't prove anything. To use meta you have to be able to show that the meta is valid.

That is nonsensical. People use meta all the time to develop their reads without proving them in some imaginary court of public opinion. I don't recall ordering you to sheep me, and I'm free to use whatever scumhunting methods I want. I don't have to prove that ika is scum to vote him any more than you had to prove Aristo was scum to vote him. Hell, a "gutread" can't be proven in ANY way and people vote based on those all the time. So I have no clue what you're on about.

In short, you're not the boss of me and you're not so big.

[Bookitty]

Where did I even make a case on Ika, Espeonage? I provided some information, I voted him, but I don't recall making a case. I think that you just saw me vote and had a serious over-the-top overreaction to it, but I'm fine with that because at least you're not lurking anymore.

I have nearly nothing BUT meta to use on Ika because he's been the lurkiest lurksack ever. But I still fail to see how my meta read is any of your concern anyway. You couldn't have much other than meta to DEFEND him on, so why are you bothering?

I can't vote you AND ika AND Aristo AND every other lurker in the game all at once. I think you know that, so saying I don't find it scummy just because I haven't voted you yet? Pretty reachy.

[Bookitty]

Well, I want to take a look at my little wagon for a second.

LucianRoy purports to think that I am either the most fiendishly clever scum in all of MafiaScum or the dumbest. He thinks I went out of my way to bus my buddy Antihero on Day One but then either:

1. Was too dumb to remember to vote Antihero to get the credit, or
2. Was so clever that I stayed off the wagon even though I was one of the motivating forces for the lynch so that no one would accuse me of bussing for towncred

This logic fail is so bad and looks so faked that if LucianRoy hadn't softclaimed (something he seems to be going out of his way to point out, by the way) my vote would be stuck on him like superglue on your fingers.

Espeonage, on the other hand, seems to think it's fine not to read the thread and may believe that he replaced into this game based on this:

Espeonage, have you caught up in the thread?

No, but I never will.

I generally don't read stuff I've missed unless there is a huge reason to. Makes me an economical replacer. It's kind of like doing jump rope and you have to wait for the right moment, at which point you jump in and do the thing.

Since he hasn't even bothered to read the thread, I guess I'm not surprised that Espeonage has adopted LucianRoy's craplogic so eagerly.

I think it's possible that LucianRoy softclaimed to try to out the doctor/protective role. Here are some things that are bothering me:

Also, I can prove my town-role from the events last night.
Considering I wasn't roleblocked.

It has to do with my role only serving the purpose of early town-confirmation.
Plus, if I get that out of the way, people might follow my vote.
Your bait was taken.

This might tie into why I read you scum.
You seem really eager to learn more about my role.

Ok, you know that I softclaimed, right?
If you don't, you should at least go back and read that part.
I forget the post number.

We can assume fairly safely that there's some sort of town-sided protective because there was no nightkill last night. LucianRoy nearly immediately softclaims, but he doesn't claim doctor. It looks like he's trying to draw out a counterclaim. I didn't make too much of it at first because I could see a scenario in which LucianRoy was trying to draw the nightkill away from the actual protective or in which he was just very inexperienced and inexpert with power role play. The reiteration of that softclaim, though, looks to me like one more try at drawing out a counterclaim without actually claiming the protect. Otherwise it makes no sense that LucianRoy would claim nearly immediately at the start of the new day.

If LucianRoy is the doctor/protective, he's played in a way that seems almost designed to ensure that he will be nightkilled, which would not be optimal play for that situation. The timing of his softclaim, however, makes me believe that he is more likely scum trying to elicit a counterclaim from the real protective. If someone claimed doc/whatever, LucianRoy had carefully worded everything to ensure that he couldn't be held responsible for the counterclaim. "I never said I was the doc! OMG how could you claim?" and other faked histrionics and hijinks would undoubtedly ensue.

Nothing I have said should be taken as an invitation to counterclaim LucianRoy -- not that you could, since he's claimed precisely nothing so far.

@DarkLightA: Can you elaborate, please?

[Bookitty]

Okay.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aristophanes

I thought you were going to post something substantial and you didn't.

[Bookitty]

@DarkLightA: In case it's not clear, I unvoted Ika to prevent said LOLhammer and to give him a chance to respond to your comments. If he continues avoiding this thread, though, my vote will probably go right back again. This is pretty much a last chance from me.

[Bookitty]

disappointed*

It's a meme, and not one I came up with

[Bookitty]

Ika probably doesn't, or at least shouldn't, understand what I'm referring to. I can respond to a claim, and then ika can decide whether he wants to claim or not.

I have no clue what you're saying here.

Second the positive feedback for Marquis. The flavour in this game makes me happy!<3 <3

[Bookitty]

Wait, why are people voting DLA and Ika? I don't get it!

I'm kidding.

I totally agree with Boo here and don't honestly see why everyone is saying the vote reason is so shitty.
In Dawn on Arrival Ika clearly displayed the lurkerscum tendency, and is clearly doing a similar thing here. Boo and many others mentioned this, including Mollie, who Boo has quoted here. I like this wagon.
VOTE: Ika

Espionage
I haven't been active lurking at all. I've literally not checked the thread. At all.
What is your actual case on me!?
I see that you think I'm scummy for active lurking without a reason, you then say that my having a reason would be irrelevant. It makes zero sense.
Also, as I said, I don't see why Boo is scummy, nor why her activity has warranted a vote.

I see people questioning how I could vote Anti on meta reasons without having read the last bit of the thread.
He had been doing this same shit all through the day phase, and I did a very quick skim to see if it had changed in what little time I had.
We caught scum, so I'm happy with the outcome.

Here's a readslist, since apparently I have been unclear and stuff.
Strong Town-lean: Bookitty, EP, KillJester, Lucian
Town-lean: Elyse, Soren
Null: Empking
Light Scum-lean: DLA, NotMafia
Scum-lean: Ika, Espionage

Why is your opening statement a joke? I don't get it.

Just kidding!

Not but seriously I don't get the point of your opening statement.

Okay, I have no idea how I missed this post by Aristophanes I assume it was during the recent period where my cookies got messed up (not THOSE kind of cookies) and I wasn't seeing any intervening posts on preview.

UNVOTE: and an apology for saying I was disappointed. At least you are trying.

I want to reread a bit to see if I missed anything else during that period, which will also give Ika enough time to provide us with some reads and to share some content with us. Thanks in advance, Ika!

[Bookitty]

Ika is due for a prod in about 24 hours assuming he doesn't post before then.

We have seven days until deadline hits.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens for now, anyway.

[Bookitty]

Don't get the last few posts.

Taylor Swift's mum has been diagnosed with cancer.

For her fans (like me) it's kind of a big deal.

What's your impression of the DarkLightA-Ika thing, Empking?

[Bookitty]

What's your impression of the DarkLightA-Ika thing, Empking?

I'd rather not have any discussion at this point.

We're coming up on deadline. And we're not having any discussion at all. This is not a good thing.

I'm giving it 24 more hours at most before I provide some more motivation for Ika to post.

[Bookitty]

@DarkLightA: Do you think that Ika is scum? What degree of certainty do you have there?

@Anyone: Hypothetically, if you know someone targeted you last night and you survived the encounter, should you out that person? It's possible that they are a town power role OR a scum power role. All you know for sure is that they aren't vanilla. What's the optimal play in cases like that?

@Elyse: Please don't hammer until I get a few answers on this. <3

[Bookitty]

I'm trying to work through DarkLightA's thought process. I'm thinking it makes a difference if the person is about to be lynched, and DLA didn't say anything until Ika was already being wagoned seriously.

[Bookitty]

It does not appear that he is going to claim. What damage are you trying to mitigate?

At this point, it's like staggering into a police station covered in blood and holding a giant bloody knife and then saying, "I don't want any discussion regarding the knife!" That may be your preference, but you've pretty well ruled out any discussion of anything ELSE.

[Bookitty]

@Ika: Do you support a DarkLightA lynch at this time?

[Bookitty]

What if he's a butcher and just wanted to give the police a gift for all their hard work?

Are you really going to claim butcher, Not Mafia? ARE YOU?

<3

Seriously, though, it's like putting big neon signs on a curtain and then forbidding anyone to look at it. "This curtain is private! There's nothing to see here! WHY ARE YOU ALL STARING AT THE CURTAIN?"

[Bookitty]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there, Espeonage.

I have a hate for lurkers. I think it's really shabby to agree to play a game and then lurk all the way through, taking up a slot that might have been used by someone who wanted to play and offering minimal commitment to that game and the other players in it. I think it's really rude at a minimum.

However, it's a proven tactic for scum. It helps to stay off the radar and it allows you to coast until later in the game without attracting any real suspicion.

Drawn on Arrival just ended, and Ika lurked as scum there. Uncouth Mafia ALSO just ended, and Ika lurked as scum there. That's two VERY recent games in which Ika lurked as scum. He was obviously around to perform a night action, though, so that's a sign that he was not avoiding the game during the night phase.

What's wrong with this case?

[Bookitty]

Antihero really shouldn't be being wagoned right now anyway, because most of the case is based on meta and disinterest, neither of which are good reasons to wagon someone. Voting has never been good motivator and I have never understood why people think it is.

I was all ready to squawk angrily like a large and loud chicken but then I saw who posted this.

[Bookitty]

Snark aside, do you feel I haven't been keeping up with this game and reading it, Espeonage? Because you haven't been, by your own posting. What are YOU using to develop reads, if you weren't paying attention to the game either?

Meta is a tool like anything else. I never said I used meta alone. Do you think it was unfair that Antihero got lynched as scum because of a meta read? Because that's what your comments are suggesting, whether you realise it or not.

Elyse, please don't hammer yet, I want to look at something else.

[Bookitty]

I think Ika's town.

Okay. We know there was no night kill last night.

It seems really unlikely that scum would target DarkLightA for a nightkill. I went back and ISOed DarkLightA to see if I found any crumbs that would justify that (or a rolecop, or a roleblock), but I did not.

One issue I often have is that, depending on the player, self-preservation lurkiness can also be a sign of trying to protect a power role.

We know that DarkLightA is not a tracker (he has said so) and we know that Ika targeted him because both Ika and DarkLightA have said so. This spells out to me that DarkLightA is soft-claiming self-watcher or plain old watcher. DarkLightA is not dead, though, and if someone protected him from a nightkill, then as a watcher he would know that too.

We already know way too much about both Ika and DarkLightA. The scum will know who the town is. Ika insists that claiming will hurt town, and I don't know if he's right or not.

If Ika had any investigative results on DarkLightA, he would either claim a guilty or protect an innocent. He's done neither. So I'm ruling out a cop-type role there.

I think this is right:

VOTE: DarkLightA

His initial belief that Ika was town doesn't really mesh with his current suspicion on Ika imo. I still stick by my meta on Ika, but I'm just not sure there.

Can you explain now, DarkLightA? Surely if Ika looks like scum to you now, there's no reason to withhold your evidence, right?

[Bookitty]

I'm saying that using meta is worse than never posting. That is how bad your meta case on ika is. It would actually be more protown to have you dead than spouting a case that is entirely meta.

So it would be better if we'd never lynched Antihero? That would be more protown?

Can you actually contribute content relevant to the game rather than using this thread as a soapbox for your theory diatribes, please?

[Bookitty]

Ika, if you support a DarkLightA lynch, why aren't you voting him?

Why do you think he's scum, please?

[Bookitty]

DLA has to be a self-watcher or he has to be scum with Ika. I don't see how he can know that Ika targeted him unless he saw it or he is bussing Ika (since they were the two leading scumwagons).

We know that daytalk is enabled in this game; DarkLightA shifted gears pretty dramatically on Ika once the wagon got going. He tried to derail the wagon by calling Ika town and then came out with this vague accusation. Neither one of them will claim.

I'm going to bet they're Mafia together and I'm going to out part of my role in my next post to support that argument unless someone tells me absolutely not to in my next post.

[Bookitty]

@DarkLightA: You haven't claimed anything really. Neither has Ika. If Ika is town, then there's little reason for him to target you particularly. If you are town, there's also little reason for you to target Ika. These things are possible, but not likely.

What is vanishingly unlikely is that you would target Ika and he would target you right back. If you are not a selfwatcher, then this sequence of events makes no kinda sense given what had occurred in the thread previously. I could buy:

1. Ika visits DLA and DLA passively observes this
or
2. DLA watches Ika and sees him go to someone else
but not
3. Ika targets DLA and DLA targets Ika

Because that's vanishingly improbable.

So I was thinking about this, and I have reason to believe that the first option can't be true either, because I am a self-watcher. That's not all there is to my role, but I got a result last night that someone visited me whom I believe to be town (i.e., not DLA and not Ika). I'm not outing them, but because just one person visited me, I also know I wasn't the target of the nightkill.

Unless there are multiple self-watchers, I think you are scum, DLA.

[Bookitty]

With all the fishing you were doing to LucianRoy, Ika and your own partial outing, you are complaining about this?

The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

[Bookitty]

I think it's better to go with DarkLightA first because his claim is weird and inconsistent with what I know to be true.

If you see mistakes in my theory, please please please point them out to me. If you agree with my logic, though, please vote DarkLightA and thank you <3

@DarkLightA: I don't understand what you're getting at there. You half-outed your claim and outed Ika as a power role of some sort. If you were town, that would make you a target for scum anyway, so that's too much information. If you're scum, you're providing ~reasons~ not to lynch you without risking being counterclaimed. You're withholding the part that would help town figure out the game.

It's like opposites day.

[Bookitty]

Boo, if you're town we need to have a serious talk about theory.

I don't agree with you. I don't think it's necessary to box everyone into a particular playstyle. I think people should play the way they find most comfortable and useful for themselves.

If someone gives me nothing to read them on, darn straight I'm going to look at their meta for general clues. I don't know why this is such an issue for you, Espeonage. I'm not making you do it.

[Bookitty]

My claim prevents you from claiming self-watcher. It doesn't prevent me from being the nightkill and it surely doesn't prevent me from using any other aspect of my role.

Ika has indicated he's going to self-vote at deadline. That means that you have outed yourself unnecessarily in an effort to get either a Mafia member or a town power role to claim. If you're scum, that's cool and all (and I think you are) but if you're town, you've derailed pretty much all other discussion for this day and you've outed yourself for no purpose.

Do you think you're twice as bad since you outed two power roles and I outed only part of one?

[Bookitty]

I believe you are scum together, yeah. I don't know that, and I've been wrong before, shockingly enough.

I just think it's odd that you're throwing a fit about me outing myself (something you were fine with before I did it, for the record) while you're at least twice as bad in this regard. It makes me feel more secure in my read on you, like having a warm kitty to hold.

[Bookitty]

Hmmm. Okay, that's true. I know the person who visited me didn't block a kill. Only one person visited me.

A roleblocker is possible, but then I don't know anything about it.

[Bookitty]

(...) I'm going to out part of my role in my next post to support that argument unless someone tells me absolutely not to in my next post.

This irks me in all the wrong ways. Why are you not making the decision yourself? You're the one with the information—you're the one who can make the best call. I don't see any need for incriminating arguments at this stage unless something flips around.

This does not mesh with DarkLightA's reaction AFTER I claimed. Not at all.

[Bookitty]

[ skip to next votecount ]

I have to go for a bit now, but I would very much like LucianRoy to give his thoughts here. He's been my harshest critic and I think he will look at them really hard and find any problems or loopholes I haven't considered.

@DarkLightA: Why don't you lynch me and see, instead of trying to out the rest of my role by fishing?

[Bookitty]

pie head does not support an ika lynch today. I'd unvote, but I'm pretty behind and don't know what I'd do with it instead. I should be on on-and-off tomorrow.

Please read DarkLightA's ISO. I support that lynch.

I'm not against an Ika lynch because I think they are scum together, but I'm more sure on DarkLightA.

[Bookitty]

Antihero really shouldn't be being wagoned right now anyway, because most of the case is based on meta and disinterest, neither of which are good reasons to wagon someone. Voting has never been good motivator and I have never understood why people think it is.

wut

antihero is dead

and did you really just regurgitate what esp just said

I understood that to be sarcasm; it was repeating something Espeonage just said but substituting in the name of a player who was lynched in a similar situation in this game and flipped scum.

In essence, Espeonage was attacking the method by which we lynched Antihero without considering the end result, which was lynched scum.

[Bookitty]

I'm not a tracker.

If the next post you post doesn't contain a full claim I will vote you.

So why did you lie?

Also, what you describe is a self-watcher, not a self-tracker (which makes no sense, because you'd already know where you went). So my point still stands.

[Bookitty]

My role is a self-tracker. I passively track players who target me.

Can you explain how this differs from a self-watcher, please?

[Bookitty]

My issues are these:

If you think someone is town AND a power role, which DarkLightA claims he did, then pressuring that power role for a claim is one of the worst possible moves. Lying to try to force that claim is inexcusable from town.

DarkLightA had no basis for thinking Ika was town when he started this gambit. Ika had posted almost nothing. It makes sense to me that if someone targets you, you would go back and read over their ISO at a minimum to try to figure out why you think they might have done that. DarkLightA thought Ika was town based on ??? He then decides that Ika is scum based on Ika's unwillingness to claim even under pressure. This makes no sense unless DarkLightA got some kind of alignment information from this purported "self-tracking" capability.

But we know he couldn't have gotten that alignment information, because DarkLightA expressed suspicion of me for having a two-part role. Town-DarkLightA wouldn't have been suspicious of that, because he would have one himself. So that can't be the case.

My theory of Ika and DLA being scum together is destroyed by DarkLightA's claim of a passive self-watching power, but that's okay. DLA lied to try to get someone to claim and his own claim makes no sense given my knowledge of my own role and his garbled and nonsensical explanation of said claim.

I would really like a DLA lynch today, please.

EBWOP: Where is said breadcrumb, DLA?

[Bookitty]

Okay. Why did you not think Ika was scum based solely on his targeting of you, DarkLightA? Can you point to things in his ISO that supported this townread? Why would your suspicion that he was a rolecop make you think he was town?

[Bookitty]

I think you are scum. I think you pushed back against an Antihero lynch and then engaged in an ill-conceived gambit to try to out a power role you claim to have believed was town.

If you wanted a claim from Ika, the threat already posed by the town was very likely to elicit that claim without your interference. I don't know why you tried to derail that wagon, but I can think of a couple of possible reasons:

1. It looked like Ika would be the lynch regardless, so you could get towncred for trying to "protect" him while allowing the lynch to go through, or
2. If Ika claimed a power role, you looked to be the next likely lynch. Derailing his lynch yourself might buy you time to get past your Day One behaviour.

You're now claiming that you thought he was a rolecop, a role that is really only beneficial to scum and that most people would suspect as scum based on the role alone.

Nothing you have done today matches your claimed motivations. I don't have to "paint" you as anything. You've done a fine job of that yourself, not least by lying to everyone about your role in the first place.

[Bookitty]

Operate (under the same assumptions or knowledge I have...)

Easy.

I'm happy with my vote given what I know about my own role PM.

[Bookitty]

Also, since you claim you know that this role has never occurred in MafiaScum, how would you expect anyone to pick up on initials of a role that doesn't exist as a breadcrumb? How did that make sense to you?

I call shenanigans.

[Bookitty]

You're not really much of a Taylor Swift fan, are you, DarkLightA?

[Bookitty]

Well, first:

A Paranoid Dog Owner is not a breadcrumbable role. It's like a "Townie who eats pretzels before going to bed" is not a breadcrumbable role. No one is going to pick up on it, and you would have known that no one could have picked up on it. You even said it wasn't a role used on MafiaScum. I don't believe this part. Your argument that Ika might be a rolecop who picked up on your crumb? Completely lacks credibility.

Secondly, a Paranoid Dog Owner would be an odd choice for a townie role name in this game. Taylor is a proud cat owner and her real fans are aware of that.

[Bookitty]

My song is

I knew you were trouble

.

Aaand that's gonna get me lynched isn't it.

I think the Paranoid Dog Owner claim was the clincher myself.

@Elyse: Mine too.

[Bookitty]

DarkLightA: Do you think it's a good idea to lie to town? Why did you do that? What did you hope to gain from it?

How do you know what songs The Bulge submitted as choices, please?

[Bookitty]

They're quoted in my role PM.

Okay, I'm going to say that's not alignment indicative because that could be true for replacements. It was not the case in my role PM, though. I got my second choice and no mention of my other choices was made.

There was no compelling need to lie. You could have said nothing. You chose to provide false information to town and then backtracked.

Nothing you've done today has made sense given your claimed motivations.

We have a little less than five days til deadline. I'm willing to go with Elyse's plan and wait, but I want you lynched today.

@Empking: How do you figure?

[Bookitty]

You lied to town by your own admission. It was not until you claimed not-tracker, however, that I became certain you were not telling the truth. I was right, too.

I explained why I didn't believe you and Ika targeted each other; statistically, that's REALLY improbable given that neither of you were especially noticeable Day One.

Your partial claim meant that the only real possibility other than some odd tracker role was self-watcher. I know that this is part of my role. I guess it's possible that there could be two of a kind in the game. But lying and claiming not-tracker looks to me like an effort to elicit a counterclaim, something you succeeded in doing.

Your claim was bungled. Your role name looks like the opposite of what town flavour ought to be. Your claimed motivations don't mesh at all with your actions.

You breadcrumbed a role that makes no more sense than me pointing to an early post of my own and saying it breadcrumbs "Veteran of Mafia" because I criticised NotMafia's "Vote On Me." It is meaningless. You could pick just about any three letters and fit some nonsense rolename to them. You then said you wanted to see if Ika had spotted the breadcrumb -- REALLY? Does ANYONE believe that?

It's the combination of all these things that seals the deal for me that you are scum.

[Bookitty]

Flew me to places I'd never been

Commuter?

[Bookitty]

You know Paranoid Gun Owner is a town-role, correct?

And your point is? You didn't claim Paranoid Gun Owner. Also, Ika isn't dead.

[Bookitty]

Also, since you claim you know that this role has never occurred in MafiaScum, how would you expect anyone to pick up on initials of a role that doesn't exist as a breadcrumb? How did that make sense to you?

I call shenanigans.

If you had his role, how would you breadcrumb it?

I DO have his role, basically. I didn't breadcrumb it. I see no reason to breadcrumb a self-watching role; why would I?

In cases where I have breadcrumbed, I took the practical effect of the role and used a word that would hint at it without telling it. The best breadcrumb I ever picked up on was a game long ago in which Flameaxe said, "Let's just lynch (I don't remember who) and we'll have donuts after."

That's how I knew he was the cop. I don't think anyone else picked up on it

[Bookitty]

At a guess, Soren, DLA's role description is quite different than mine, since I think he's scum.

We can't quote from our role PMs so I don't have a clue if it's the same wording or not.

[Bookitty]

IMO breadcrumbs are only useful if no one can understand it until it is pointed out. It's a bit of credibility provided to a claim.

It's really not. Scum do it all the time to bolster whatever fakeclaim they plan to go with. I pointed out what I thought was the best use of a breadcrumb; it helped keep a cop alive while ensuring that watchful town would know to follow his lead.

[Bookitty]

At this point I feel like I'm just repeating myself.

Please read DarkLightA's ISO, folks. I think everything you need to know is right there.

I'm done for now.

[Bookitty]

Okay, here is the sequence of events that troubles me:

I think Ika's town.

Ika was being wagoned for lurkiness and non-contribution. According to DarkLightA's story, he knew that Ika had targeted him last night. 1. So what is this read based on?

Please don't hammer ika. I have reason to believe he is town.

Still saying this, still with no reason.

I'd rather not elaborate yet. However, I have information that could potentially, maybe, possibly exonerate ika. Therefore I'm asking to refrain from LOLhammering and allow a claim and my response to said claim before any hammering takes place.

This made me think DLA was town.

Ika probably doesn't, or at least shouldn't, understand what I'm referring to. I can respond to a claim, and

then ika can decide whether he wants to claim or not.

Ah, the famous breadcrumb. It doesn't happen until after DLA has already started his gambit, which seriously undercuts the credibility of that gambit. But it's the second sentence that bothers me: 2. How could DLA respond to a claim before Ika made it?

You don't know shit. Give me a full claim or I'll ensure that you go back to L-1 if that would help you at all.

This to Ika. Unexplained townread fading -- maybe because it was never real at all?

What's your impression of the DarkLightA-Ika thing, Empking?

I'd rather not have any discussion at this point.

3. Doesn't want anyone else to talk about it. Why?

Look at the votes. A few ninjas votes and ika is gone.

Seriously Soren, what's up with your play today? You seem to be more interested in ika's lynch than his flip.

This is weird after the Post 664 threat.

I'm not a tracker.

If the next post you post doesn't contain a full claim I will vote you.

The self-admitted lie.

What the fuck do you think you're doing?

You were being lynched. I stopped that. Now you comply or get lynched. Full claim.

Why is DLA so concerned that Ika claim at this point? He was already voting him, so how can DLA control whether Ika gets lynched or not anyway? He can't vote him MORE.

might never happen if you don't act quickly.

The way you're acting now I think several people will be more than happy to hammer.

The apparent scumread from earlier seems to have faded, because DLA is here acting the part of the concerned friend trying to help Ika not get lynched.

However, seven minutes later:

I thought things through and I actually think ika's scum.

I don't know anymore. I'm going to bed. I don't really care what happens to ika.

Apathy.

@Bookitty, which part of this:

I'd just rather not have any discussion on the ika-DLA dynamic.

is ambiguous to you?

I'll explain everything if ika claims.

Back to wanting a claim.

I'm perfectly content lynching ika for his reluctance to claim. His behavior has been anti-town at best.

Happy with the lynch.

Ika, you're going to die. I don't understand what you're trying to achieve by not claiming.

You do know that there are quite a few possible roles in mafia, correct?

Almost... coaching? If DLA thinks Ika is scum, why not just push for his lynch?

Can you explain now, DarkLightA? Surely if Ika looks like scum to you now, there's no reason to withhold your evidence, right?

Why do you keep on fishing? I am not saying anything before ika claims, leave it or take it.

DLA is making sure nothing else can be discussed by harping on the claim, but heaven forbid anyone else discuss it!

Ah, yes. I knew there was something I forgot to address. Frankly, I was trying to coerce a claim out of Ika and at that point I was becoming quite uncertain about his alignment. I figured that if I slipped in a white lie I could make him uncertain and hence—if he were scum—could make him fakeclaim something that could be contested. Essentially, I felt that the less information Ika had at the point of claiming, the better. That was also why I resisted discussion on the topic.

Admits his lie.

This, DLA, is where you said that you didn't want to show the breadcrumb because you thought it would prove Ika was the rolecop:

I'll allow ika to respond before revealing that as he can verify a rolecop role through it.

I think I'm okay with either lynch today. There's so much weird incriminatory stuff going on between Ika and DLA that either flip would resolve some things for me, anyway.

Sorry for the patented Wall-O-Text.

[Bookitty]

You were saying that I saved Ika from lynch thinking he was rolecop. That's false. In fact, I thought of it as a possibility later, and I think you'd agree it's reasonable to wait for the possibility of a rolecop claim that can be verified no matter how low the chances are.

No, I said that you refused to provide the location of the breadcrumb because you thought Ika was a rolecop. That came much later than your "saving him from lynch." Not that your breadcrumb COULD actually have been spotted, since it was for a role that doesn't actually exist anywhere but this game, but why would you think that Ika would be able to verify himself as a rolecop who investigated you based on that crumb, since by your own admission it is only findable after the fact?

Why did you think Ika was town in the first place, please? What was the basis of your townread?

[Bookitty]

Für Elyse:

Ika, if you support a DarkLightA lynch, why aren't you voting him?

Why do you think he's scum, please?

cus i want hammer

his 180 reversal on me easily looks like scum WK me and then jumping ship

[Bookitty]

I don't understand DLA's initial townread on Ika and I don't understand why Ika or anyone would target DarkLightA based on Day One.

You are not alone in being confused.

[Bookitty]

Then replace out

marquis asked me to take the spot as a favor sooooooo unless if you have a person line up, nope

You consider the way you've been playing doing him a FAVOUR?

Wow.

No, I think we need to just lynch this slot.

VOTE: Ika

I'm thinking that's L-2 again.

[Bookitty]

No. If you're town you've wasted your power role, provided nothing of value to town and stalled this game out in an unfun manner.

My investment in this game is a lot less because yours is nonexistent.

[Bookitty]

First things first: In light of Ika's flip I clearly look bad. And me looking bad from Day 1 doesn't help either. However, I stand by my play. I felt like it was much more likely for me to be targeted by town than scum, and a "compulsive faith healer" was basically one of the few roles in which scum would target me, because I looked bad. I'm happy to answer anything that people feel like I haven't cleared up sufficiently.

This is the opposite of true. If you had been scum, Ika targeting you would have killed him. You're now conftown. Bask in your well-earned limelight.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: Aristophanes

I want to read a little bit more and my schedule is pretty full until tomorrow, but yeah, I think that's probably right.

[Bookitty]

I got no message from Marquis apart from the Day Begins one so I'm going to say no.

I targeted no one either.

[Bookitty]

I targeted no one either.

How is a self watcher able to target someone? Why would you even say that you didn't target anyone when you have a passive role?

Then again you said that there is another part of your role? So you have another ability but didn't use it? Why?

What do you hope to gain from this line of questioning, Soren?

[Bookitty]

@Soren: Okay. Let me be more clear.

Do you support a mass claim as has been suggested in this thread?

Are you trying to pressure me to full claim right now?

What do you think the advantage of my full-claiming before the mass claim would be, Soren?

If you don't think I'm town by play then you should absolutely push for my lynch. Trying to get a full-claim out of me without committing to wanting to lynch me, though, is just rolefishing. So stop it.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: Aristophanes

I want to read a little bit more and my schedule is pretty full until tomorrow, but yeah, I think that's probably right.

I have already answered that, Soren.

[Bookitty]

What's well-earned about it?

It was humour. You had nothing to do with Ika targeting you, ergo, you didn't do anything to prove yourself as town. You just are.

I don't care if you guys want to lynch me, either. We have two scum down and only one left to go, so we can afford a couple of mislynches if it narrows down the possible scum pool.

I would think that my pushing of the Antihero lynch and my arguments on behalf of the Ika lynch would have proven my good intentions sufficiently, but if not, I don't really feel the need to defend myself against pushing you yesterday, DLA. I think you earned the push. If you really think I am scum who pushed the lynch of two of my partners for towncred I didn't even claim, then please lynch me. I promise to point and laugh at you in post-game

[Bookitty]

Balance issues, primarily?

I guess it could be two left, but looking at it like this:

4 Mafia (informed traitor can vote with Mafia) out of 13 players is just a bit under one third.

I haven't seen many setups with that kind of power, but I guess given the negative utility of Ika's faith healer role, maybe.

[Bookitty]

Marquis is a tease.

[Bookitty]

Did you have a read on Empking, Bookitty? He's been quite a concern to me throughout the game because he has barely contributed and doesn't exactly explain much.

I've already answered this question too. But since you're apparently in frantic overdrive question-mode, here:

Empking said he wouldn't ever vote Antihero AFTER Anti went to L-1 and looked to be the most likely lynch. That doesn't look like a scum move to me. Why make a stand-out remark like that when Anti was clearly on the way down? It would make more sense to vote Anti as scum since he was a lost cause anyway, right?

So I'm reading Empking as town after looking at the chronology there.

[Bookitty]

I'd like to suggest an alternative to a massclaim. I could pick a select group of people to claim that I think are most likely to be scum, and only they would claim. Then a massclaim could happen later.

I think that would provide more information compared to the relative increase in knowledge of scum.

Aristophanes, Empking, and Espeonage required. Bookitty and Endless Possibilities too if they have anything to add to Self-Watcher and Hated Double-Voter claims, respectively.

Rest are town.

At that point you may as well go with a massclaim.

[Bookitty]

Meh, I set aside time today to try to reread the game but the constant barrage of questions and random accusations pretty well shot that effort down in flames.

I'll go ahead and

VOTE: Aristophanes

I make that L-2.

[Bookitty]

If I full-claim, that includes claiming all results I have. While that's fine with me, it may not be so fine with the person who would be semi-outed by that claim.

That's why to ME it's comparable to asking for a mass claim.

[Bookitty]

If I full-claim, that includes claiming all results I have.

Doesn't have to.

Given Soren's weird interrogation of me earlier, I'm pretty sure it will end up like that.

[Bookitty]

Your argument is essentially "we'll expose a lot of information, so we may as well expose all the information", am I correct?

I wasn't aware that I was making any argument at all.

If you are asking more people to claim than you're exempting from claiming, then it's usually more efficient to go ahead and do a mass claim. I don't care about claiming and could even claim first; however, to support my claim I'll need to point to someone else. If we're going to do it like that, I don't see why we're not doing a mass claim anyway.

If we're waiting til tomorrow, that's fine with me as well.

[Bookitty]

Oooh, my turn

I'm the New Romantics. I'm a Town Strong Independent Woman Who Don't Need No Man.

My role is an Ascetic Self-Watcher. I can't be targeted at night except with kills; people who do so receive a very nice message that basically lets them know I'm not interested.

I knew Killerjester targeted me, but I didn't want to say anything because I thought he was town and I didn't want him to be the NK.

[Bookitty]

Why was it important specifically that I claim before Soren? I don't object, I'm just puzzled.

[Bookitty]

Ascetic?

[Bookitty]

Because of dat sweet sweet tunnel

Nope, still lost. Who was tunneling who? Soren was asking EVERYONE lots of questions imo. For my part, I was and am voting Aristophanes if I recall correctly.

[Bookitty]

Not_mafia, why are you taking control over the popcorn, and why do you want Soren to claim?

I thought you didn't want to popcorn anyway?

[Bookitty]

Nothing active?

No. I specifically said I didn't target anyone last night, which is true, because I wanted to see if someone would claim that I had.

As an ascetic, I am extremely expendable and I would have liked to draw the nightkill. I debated about claiming day one but thought that my best bet was to play assertively and use the self-watcher part of my role to see who targeted me. I was trying to walk the line of aggressive enough to catch scum and to be a decent target for scum and not so townie as to draw protection. I feel bad about wasting KJ's shot, but we lynched scum twice in a row so I don't feel AWFUL about it.

EBWOP: I think LucianRoy has an equal claim to that right, DLA. I agree that you're conftown, but I don't trust your judgment so much after your big push to save Ika yesterday.

Also:

Spoiler:

[Bookitty]

As far as I recall, Endless Possibilities was only hated on Day One.

I think we need that full claim before we lynch.

I think the only way that LucianRoy should claim is if he is a faith healer.

Aristophanes, why did you pick Elyse for protection last night?

Empking: Who did you bodyguard?

[Bookitty]

Also, if we want to test the gladiator claim, at least two people need to vote him today. I'm willing to do that, but someone else needs to do it too or else the person could be nightkilled and then there would be no way to test it.

[Bookitty]

@Killerjester: I don't think it matters if there is more to his role. Unless LucianRoy counterclaims Aristo, then Aristo is conftown too.

[Bookitty]

From my perspective, scum have to be in:

Empking - Body Guard
Endless Possibilities (Metal Sonic + pieguyn) - Hated Double-Voter (technically hasn't fullclaimed)
Espeonage - 1x Gladiator

From anyone else's perspective, you have to add me to that list:

Bookitty - Ascetic Self-Watcher

I'm unhappy with Endless Possibilities because they've kind of dropped off the radar after Day One. I took a look at their ISO and they're posting pretty much exactly as much as necessary to avoid being prodded; one or two posts every two to three days. While they were the architect of the Antihero lynch and were on the Ika lynch (albeit with mixed feelings between the two hydra heads) I could see this as clever scum maneuvering that went wrong with Ika.

I fully believe KillerJester and the two masons (I had NotMafia as town pretty early on and that read hasn't wavered) so lynching in that four-person pool should be a win for town.

[Bookitty]

That's by way of saying who I think should be investigated too, KillerJester. Not me, because if there are doubts about my alignment only a lynch will fix them, but any of the other three.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: Espeonage

I was thinking that someone else had to join me, but actually, if I'm the nightkill, that is a win too because the pool of four is reduced and my role is not useful. So never mind about that

Good with the Empking lynch. Would still like to wait for EP to full claim.

[Bookitty]

Can we ask Aristophanes to protect you, KillerJester?

Your role is the most useful one imo. At a minimum, it would make Mafia take a fifty-fifty shot at you and preferably it would make scum shoot elsewhere.

I have NotMafia as town so I'm believing that claim. It's too risky for scum to link themselves like that, especially with two down already.

[Bookitty]

Yes, but we have two protectives.

If we're not shooting for a perfect town game but just a definite win, then I'm okay with being the lynch today. I'm committed to my three person scum pool and my role is completely useless and unconfirmable, so if I'm the lynch then you can go with your original plan and solve the game easily imo.

This is only true if Empking weighs in and agrees to the bodyguard plan, though; otherwise he can just pretend he didn't know that was the plan and get out of it that way. I want to hear who he bodyguarded on previous nights, too.

EBWOP: If the person Empking was to bodyguard ended up the nightkill, that would prove Empking scum too, so it would still work to narrow the possibles. I really think there is just one scum left, but I could be wrong, I guess.

[Bookitty]

Okay.

VOTE: Empking

That's L-2.

[Bookitty]

Thinking EP more and more for scum, it fits balance wise and I didn't like them early game

Check their ISO. They were checking in just enough to avoid a prod, suggesting they were following the game, but Day Two is a wasteland of nothing.

[Bookitty]

Yes. I support this lynch.

VOTE: EndlessPossibilities

Can you line out very clearly what you want people to do, KillerJester? And please wait for Empking to confirm that he will do what he's asked to before anyone hammers. Please.

[Bookitty]

I don't think KJ has told you yet. You'll do what he says, though, right?

[Bookitty]

Best case scenario: EP is the last scum and we won perfect.

Next best: EP is scum and there's one scum remaining.

Meh: If EP is town, it's among Empking, Espeonage and me, and there'll be an investigation result on Espeonage. If Espeonage is town, then lynch Empking or me in either order (it won't matter, because we won't win perfect regardless so I don't care if it's me first) and I think we win.

I toyed with a scenario in which DLA was scum trying to protect Ika because Ika was the target of scum Day One, was immune to nightkills and so the scum knew who he was. That can't be true, though, because that wouldn't tell scum that Ika had a role that could target. It would be horribly risky for minimal reward, so I think DLA is def town.

There's no bad side to this that I can think of.

[Bookitty]

I support the above.

[Bookitty]

Hey, Marquis, are you a girl?

If so, I'm sorry I called you he!

<3 <3 <3

[Bookitty]

Can I get a link to the original image for it Marquis?

Please don't hammer until Endless Possibilities has a chance to full claim.

Also, you can find the link by right clicking the picture and choosing "copy link location" from the options provided.

Here is the link, though:

http://i.imgur.com/v4Vfw6N.jpg

[Bookitty]

I want Empking, Soren, and Not_Mafia to all target DLA with their respective abilities.
Aristophanes needs to be on Empking.
Lucian can do whatever the fuck he wants.
I'll order someone of my choosing to investigate Soren/Not_Mafia but I'll probably die before that happens.

If Aristophanes lives, then Empking is town and lynch Espeonage unless my N2 target instructs you otherwise.
If Aristophanes is the only death, that's not enough to confirm Empking-scum, but my target from N2 should be able to tell you Espeonage's alignment and I trust you can narrow it down from there.
If Aristophanes and another player both die, lynch Empking.

If the game still isn't over after D4 lynch then Bookitty is scum.

This is the post for easy reference.

[Bookitty]

Obviously KJ for town MVP.

2nd!

I had a blast. Thank you, Marquis, for running this and thank you everyone for a truly fun game!

[Bookitty]

Post 1334 and Post 1335, mainly

It was very fun playing with you all through, though!