Mini 1679: Baccano! Mafia - Game Over

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all.

I haven't been here for about five years so I may be a little rusty, but I am delighted to be back.

I have started reading the game thread and I will start making my game notes asap. In the interim, if my predecessor had a vote outstanding,

Unvote

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I have read the thread a couple of times now; the first time rather quickly just to try to get a feel for the game and the players, the second time more slowly in an effort to try to make sense of the first quick read, and I am currently on my third read while making notes so that I can (hopefully) do some meaningful analysis. I am up to page 9 on my current reading, and even though I do not have any firm town or scum reads as yet because this is the read-through that takes the most time, I wanted to post anyway.

I have to say that I am disappointed that my predecessor claimed at the outset of the game as he did; I would not have done that. I would have viewed it as a fun opportunity to rock the role in an effort to draw scum heat to myself and away from town power roles. I have never had this role before, but I would have been delighted to play it full tilt. It seems to me that it was very selfish of thestatusquo to claim when he did. In my view, he should have kept his mouth shut about the role and done everything he could to use it to draw fire away from other town power roles. From his posts in the thread, I take it that this is an ego thing for him; it appears that he was more interested in his personal survival than the good of the town, which is a shame.

For the record, I don't blame anyone for suggesting that I will, therefore, have to be lynched at some point, since I am his replacement. I am fine with that as I understand how badly thestatusquo screwed up. In the interim, however, I will do what I can. Thestatusquo completely ruined the power of this role by deliberately tipping off the scum, so they are not going to try to NK me, and he has simultaneously left a permanent lynch target on me as his replacement. Not at all the way a townie should act, and all because of his own ego, it appears. If nothing else, I hope that he learns something from his ego-driven screwup in future.

Moving on, I do not recognize any of the names of the current players from my time here years ago, and I don't think that I have ever played with any of you*, so I have no meta ideas on any of you, which may be a slight disadvantage, I suppose, but I will treat it instead as a positive because it also means I have no confirmation bias to have to deal with.

* I do have a vague recollection of thestatusquo as a player name so I may have been in a game with him in the past but I am not sure and I have no specific recollection of it; however, my games are all on my wikithing, so if I have played in a game with him in the past, it will be on there.

Anyway, onward and upward. I will have more to say once I finish my third read-through and notes. Oh, and I probably should add that this site is blocked on my office network (something else that has changed since I last played here, unfortunately, as I used to be able to access it from work) so now I can only access it on evenings and weekends from home (Eastern Standard Time), but I do not anticipate any difficulty with keeping up or with posting regularly.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am nearly caught up since replacing in on the weekend and I fully expect to be able to post my detailed thoughts (and vote) before the Day ends but, in the interim, I have a query about some short forms and terms used in some posts, as I am not familiar with them.

"sheep"
"tunnels"
"IAWTP"
"town block"
"tfw"

I gather from the context that "sheep" stands for something akin to following the crowd or following another player (?) and I kind of gather from the context that "tunnels" stands for something related to a player going after another player relentlessly (?) but I am not sure about these, and I have no idea at all about what the other three mean.

If someone could please advise, I would appreciate it as that would assist me in interpreting some of the posts.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I didn't get home until now as I was out for dinner, but I wanted to post quickly since it there is less than a day left before the deadline, so this will be fairly concise (for me) and I will just quickly set out my top scum-reads for now and I will follow up with other posts separately.

My scummiest reads at present:

CoolDog - poor posts; non-answers; evasiveness; weak to non-existent (in the sense of legitimate) reasons for casting his votes; no substantive response to votes against him even as he comes very close to being lynched, which suggests scum just trying to keep quiet rather than inadvertently out his scum partners. The details on most of this have been covered by others so I probably don't need to repeat them. I am willing to hammer but will wait so as not to end the day prematurely as I understand he is at L-1.

BROseiden - rudeness and hyperbole, aggression and swearing (sometimes scum try to mask their scumminess with over-the-top aggression and such on the theory that they wouldn't do that if they were scum); his sucking up to TSQ (back at posts 260 and 262) looks like buddying from here; announcing that he was merely parking his vote (on the lurker Hydra/West) for a bit and then would move it elsewhere was useless and doing so provides zero incentive to the lurker to delurk, thus it looks to me more like an intention to telegraph a (false) reason for vote-switching in the future.

West/Hydra - serious lurkitude by Hydra punctuated only by defence of BROseiden (only 8 posts in total and 4 of them were just fluff); West's repetition (at post 272) of CoolDog's odd accusation against Mainez (paraphrasing) 'why were you still random-voting at post 28 of the thread?!?!?' when post 28 was Mainez's first post of the game and there were plenty of random votes still going on (e.g., posts 31, 32, 36, and 41, the latter by West's own predecessor, and yet West made no comment on and apparently drew no adverse inference from any of those, which makes no sense (for either CoolDog or West) if that was a genuine concern; then there's also the OMGUS vote for Domino. Just seems like a bunch of various scummy tactics all converging.

More on other stuff as soon as I can.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

regarding jazz's post, i'm not really liking it.
jazz looks like she's pushing all the blame to her predecessor so that her slot can start afresh.
i feel that the way she put that she is fine with being lynched is rather scummy in itself. the whole third paragraph is very defensive and i don't like this approach.

That seems a rather strange read of my post, particularly since I said the exact opposite to your characterization of it. I expressed my disappointment with my predecessor negating the value of the role as it had, in my view, great potential to protect other town power roles, and I expressed my acceptance of living with that by virtue of replacing in, even if it means being lynched at some point since some had expressed the view that I would have to be lynched at some point in the future in order for the rest of the town to be sure that he had not fakeclaimed. This is precisely the

opposite

of expecting to 'start afresh'. And accepting that I may have to be lynched eventually as a result of that premature claim (although I hope to convince my fellow townies otherwise in the interim) is also pro-town; I still win with the town whether I am dead or not, but if that is what it takes for the town to be confident that my predecessor wasn't fakeclaiming, I am indeed fine with that. There is nothing 'defensive' about my post at all.

It seems to me that you have badly misinterpreted my post. I do not yet know whether that was out of malice or out of misunderstanding, but I will assume the latter for now.

Also, on the topic of bulletproofs: We'd actually really like if someone who _isn't_ bulletproof would claim. Just one claim will suffice.

We're in agreement that it would be useful; sharing the exact reason at this point would likely take away the utility from it, though.

I am rather surprised by this request for a townie to role claim. And stunned that someone would actually do it on the basis of the request as written (with no meaningful basis for the request expressed, no indication of how it could potentially benefit town expressed, etc.)

Umm...what!?
I mean, I can if you think it will be actually useful, but I don't see how...

(Volunteering as tribute)

In fact, it may he more protown if I claim anyway...

I am Rachel, Town Ascetic.
No other powers.

Basically, I can be killed at night, but any other night action is useless on me. It has no effect.
So don't bother wasting investigatives on me. They won't give you anything.

I do not see how that was useful to the town at all, or why you thought it might have been a good move to make on Day 1. Could you please elaborate on the thought process that went into that disclosure?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I have never seen a town role called "Dealer" before, nor a town role called "Conditional Distraction" so I am not sure what those entail but a bit of googling makes me wonder if the "Dealer" might be something akin to an "Arms Dealer" who can receive a list of the number and types of weapons in use or, perhaps, akin to a "Merchandizer" type of role who deals in wares, and makes me wonder if the "Distraction" role might be akin to an "Escort" role who can distract a player at night to block their target from using their role's night ability (aka Town Roleblocker).

It may not matter all that much now since they have been NK'd but it may at least be useful to consider the nature of their roles in terms of assessing game balance in an effort to suss out possible scum roles and numbers.

[Jazzmyn]

I have never seen a town role called "Dealer" before, nor a town role called "Conditional Distraction" so I am not sure what those entail but a bit of googling makes me wonder if the "Dealer" might be something akin to an "Arms Dealer" who can receive a list of the number and types of weapons in use or, perhaps, akin to a "Merchandizer" type of role who deals in wares, and makes me wonder if the "Distraction" role might be akin to an "Escort" role who can distract a player at night to block their target from using their role's night ability (aka Town Roleblocker).

It may not matter all that much now since they have been NK'd but it may at least be useful to consider the nature of their roles in terms of assessing game balance in an effort to suss out possible scum roles and numbers.

Any comments? Anyone?

Alright so, idk if any of you have ever seen my scum theory thingy, but I generally see scum as fitting one of 3 categories. More likely than not, there is one of each.

I've seen worse theories. That said, the "scum theory thingy" you've described appears equally applicable to townies, so I am not sure how much utility it has beyond simply characterizing players as either being active, following others, or deliberately lurking. If you intended it to mean more than that, then please elaborate.

[Jazzmyn]

Guys I love you and everything and I haven't forgot you, but I'm sort of living and breathing e3 right now. Will be here to play later on in the week.

I hate having to proddodge, yet here I am...

+1

tomorrow, apologies

mm ditto.

With this level of non-participation, the game appears destined to die of apathy. Which would be sad.

[Jazzmyn]

I've seen worse theories. That said, the "scum theory thingy" you've described appears equally applicable to townies, so I am not sure how much utility it has beyond simply characterizing players as either being active, following others, or deliberately lurking. If you intended it to mean more than that, then please elaborate.

It is equally applicable townies, but it is a theory about group dynamics. So I separated the players into 3 groups.
...

(snipped for brevity of quoting, but the content is good)
That makes sense to me.

@Varsoon: What are your thoughts on Kalimar?

This wasn't directed to me but I will respond nonetheless as there appears to be little else going on in this game. Kalimar is on my top three list for lynching today.

[Jazzmyn]

i recommend everyone either puts their vote down, says if they don't have any suspects, or at least voices their suspects if they're the type to hold their vote

And yet, it appears that you have done none of the above.

It seems that you are just posting to avoid being prodded, with no significant content and no analysis at all all game.

[Jazzmyn]

i have voted for west

Yes, you did vote to lynch west9 in your post 506, and west9 is also among my top three scum list at present, but it appears that you voted without any content or rationale at all, which is not helpful in any way.

I think that slot is scum

I do not disagree, but again, you have not offered any content or rationale, which tends to render your meagre profferings useless from a town perspective.

and i also don't think you're in a great position to talk about significant content and analysis.

If you have any specific criticism to offer, please do so.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

May I ask that if it is just a coincidence that your avatar is the same as GreyICE's... but more Grey?

Hi Big,
I've had this avatar for a long time; my guess is that when GreyICE joined, he just didn't notice that I already had it. I don't know him.

Do you see anyone worth lynching yet?

Yes, I do but I am going to do a fresh read in order to decide where to put my vote. I keep getting scum vibes from Kalimar, West9, Mainez, and Aristo but I'll see how I feel about that after a fresh read.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

anything you've said about me will have been true yesterday, so why was I not a scumread yesterday?

I am still getting back into the swing of things after being away for a long time, but generally in early days I prefer to go with no more than a top-3 type of list rather than complete read lists because I think the latter gives too much ammunition to scum. When I re-read as days progress and more information becomes known by flips and such, I try to do so without confirmation bias but I'm human so I am sure that some creeps in, but sometimes I change my read entirely on someone in subsequent days.

why is the broseidon slot now not a scumread of yours?

I think that I may have been appeased by the amusing, kinder, and gentler persona of the replacement player, Big the Cat. I do not like abrasive, arrogant, obnoxious, rude play styles (such as was displayed by BROseiden) so it is entirely possible that the more pleasant play style of Big the Cat led me to disregard my previous scum read on that particular player slot.

In addition, as a result of my most recent re-read, I realize that I am struggling somewhat with trying to get firm reads on people. As mentioned when I replaced in, I have been away for quite a while and I'm rusty. I am hoping to improve this and get back to my stride before too long.

For instance, I thought Domino seemed pretty town, but I get a scum vibe from Varsoon who replaced Domino (because his Day 1 posts are essentially, "I'm town", "I'm town", "haven't caught up", "would be good with a Bro lynch", "would be really cool with a CD lynch", "intend to hammer", "I'm town" and his Day 2 posts seem to be mostly just fluff.)

As noted above, I thought BROseiden was scummy but I didn't get the same vibe from his replacement. Similarly, I am uncertain about you and Mainez; I may have underestimated your scumminess and overestimated that of Mainez. And in retrospect, notquitethere looks scummy as all get out with his comment that CoolDog was about to be 'mislynched' and yet switching his vote to CoolDog shortly thereafter, but at the same time he has quite a lot of good content and would appear town.

I have been finding myself going back and forth on JohnnyFarrar and Toasty as well, but I think that Toasty is likely town. I still think that West9 and Aristo look scummy although West9's posts have been significantly better than Hydra's who he replaced.

In short, I am frustrated with myself for not being able to pin down my reads more firmly at present, but I'm trying.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

A few other questions for anyone who happens to be around and knows the answers:

What does e3 mean?
How do you link to individual posts in a responding post?
What does ICYMI mean?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Placeholder.

I will be back shortly.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

E3 is the Electronic Entertainment Expo, (arguably) the biggest video game event of the year.

If you look at the post number on any given post you'll notice it's actually a direct link to that post, so my strategy is copying that link address and then dropping it into a url tag

Thanks.

ICYMI is in case you missed it.

about the individual posts thing, i'm not sure what you're referring to but if i didn't misunderstand you... at the right hand corner of each post, there's this Q+ thing where you can click and add them to your lists of posts you wanna reply to.

Thanks. I know how to do the multi-quote thing; I was referring to the direct linkage thing.

There is a [post= ] [/post] tag which, if you put the post number into, will link directly. Ex. In 619 you asked this question.

Thanks. That looks easier than the other way; I will try that.

I agree that BigCat is way less offputting than BROseidon, but is that really enough to change a scum suspect? They need to have done something to change your mind. Or are you saying that your original read may have been based on your dislike for his style of play?

I think that my original read may have been coloured by my dislike of his style of play. That said, I realize that that doesn't make him not-scum, so I will take a close look at the posts again. I am as susceptible to confirmation bias as anyone as much as I try to fight it.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hot damn do mafiascum days last long. I'll do a read list when I get back to this a bit later today, but seriously Jazzmin, JohnnyFarrar, Mainez, and ToastyToast should stop wasting everybody's time and cast their votes already.

I will vote when I am ready to vote, thanks.

the person that is absolutely flying under the radar is Jazz, as she (?) has basically posted longggg posts about trying to understand this and that and unable to actually provide her reads on someone. like there's a lot of sitting on the fence in 618.

I disagree with your characterization and invite you to re-read my posts.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazz how's it going?

Pretty good, thanks, and you?

have the recent activity enabled you to form stronger reads on anyone?

Yes, indeed. It has led to both you and Kalimar sliding upward on my scum-o-meter. Thanks for asking.

Vote: Kalimar

Having re-read his posts, he said that he 'tried' to read CoolDog's posts but his 'eyes glazed over', which strikes me as a lame excuse offered up for not being bothered to read the game thread, and the only ones who don't need to bother reading the game thread are the scum because they already know who the scum are. He posted no suspicion of CoolDog; he neither made nor adopted a case on CoolDog; he lazily said he wanted CoolDog to claim or he would hammer 24 hours later (and actually hammered before the 24 hours were up) without ever voicing any particular suspicion of CoolDog at all. Then on Day 2, he has voted without posting any reasoning for his votes in between occasionally posting fluff and misrepresenting others. This is not town behaviour.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

i have voted for west

Yes, you did vote to lynch west9 in your post 506, and west9 is also among my top three scum list at present, but it appears that you voted without any content or rationale at all, which is not helpful in any way.

1. my west9 rationale is in my ISO - mostly on hydrangea's stuff which i've talked about plenty.

I have read your ISO and I don't think that it bears that out. In post 333, you said that "west9's play is really null." Then, you didn't mention him again on Day 1 at all, so far as I can tell. Your next mention of him was on Day 2 in post 506 when you voted him with no rationale or explanation given at all.

i don't like his cooldog vote and the vote analysis looks like busywork, but i'm not going to pretend i find him as him much worse than a scummy null. hydrangea is what makes it a stronger read.

Your vote for CoolDog does not appear to be any better than his, and your suspicion on Hydrangea seems to have been based upon her choice of the word "really" in her post 86 which you mention in your post 214, and her saying that she was concerned about the early Aristo wagon and had no strong opinions yet in her post 123 as mentioned in your post 216). So, your post 611 today 'explaining' your vote on West9 doesn't make sense, since your suspicion on Hydrangea appears to have been spent by about your post 216 on Day 1, and you subsequently said that West9 was really null in your post 333 and never mentioned him again until Day 2 when you came out with your vote on him with no reasons given in your post 611.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hey! I have a Fun Idea!

Let's get both Alien Man and Invisible Man to claim, teehee~


That should be Very Exciting!

If they are naughty, we spanky~~

~Big

I don't even understand what this means. Big, I have re-read your posts in ISO again and the lack of actual content is making me more and more suspicious of you. Do you have any intention of participating in a meaningful fashion rather than just tossing out reads and votes without reasons, explanations, or analysis? While I prefer your style of play over your predecessor BROseidon's, being amusing is cute for a little while but it's wearing awfully thin, and it is not nearly enough if you're town.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Alien Man and Invisible Man are my top suspects, yup!~
Alien Man has been extremely SUS-Pee-Cious with his votes a-yup! As well as his Really Long ISO being pretty irrelevant and useless yup!
...

(Snipped to avoid a wall of quoted and nested posts, but I like the content of your recent posts - please, keep that up!)

Oh, I see. I did not initially understand what you meant by Alien Man and Invisible Man, but I get it now that you were referring to Kalimar and notquitethere, respectively.
I continue to think that Kalimar is pretty scummy. I mean, he out and out lied about his supposed reasons for voting West9, as I pointed out in my post 716. So, I like my vote where it is at this point.

That said, I will read notquitethere again to see if I am willing to switch over to that wagon to avoid a no-lynch. I am also re-reading ToastyToast and JohnnyFarrar because twinges.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

the content of Big's recent posts are indeed pretty good but what do you make out of post 712, about Big wanting both Kalimar and notquitethere to claim?

I had read it as him thinking that both Kalimar and notquitethere are likely scum and thinking that any claims that either of them might make would, therefore, be lies. I did not take it as Big actually expecting anyone to call for claims from both of them. I cannot imagine that either of them would claim unless forced to do so by votes.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@JohnnyFarrar
What do you think about Kalimar lying?

@notquitethere
What do you think about Kalimar lying?

@all, really
What do you think about Kalimar lying?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

If you don't want want a no-lynch then I strongly suggest using your vote.

It appears that you are not really paying attention. I voted days ago, and I am content with my vote on Kalimar, as noted above.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@JohnnyFarrar
What do you think about Kalimar lying?

Got like an example

I think I have posted it at least three times now. Why are you ignoring it?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Mod

It appears that both Aristophanes and Kalimar are overdue for prodding.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@West9, JohnnyFarrar, ToastyToast

Two of you are currently voting for notquitethere and one of you is currently voting for Big. With just hours to go before deadline, I doubt that those wagons are going anywhere today. One of you should move your vote over to Kalimar to avoid a no-lynch.

I realize that Aristo posted "intent" which I assume means intent to hammer (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that) but real life being what it is, anything can happen to interfere with one's plans, so I would like it if one of you other three would step up, or at least speak up.

Regards,
Jazz