Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Nachomamma8]

also... please make an effort to post in your hydra if you're in a hydra.

when i say this i'm certainly not particularly talking to a sexy, beautiful human being with the letters "e," "t," and "l" in her username.

i'm talking to everyone.

so far my initial impression of this game is that it's something I'm going to enjoy

[Nachomamma8]

There is nothing quite so good as burial at sea. It is simple, tidy, and not very incriminating.

Am I supposed to be able to click on this link and have it take me somewhere? If so, doesn't work.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh you totally said that already

[Nachomamma8]

It'll likely take me a couple of days to properly catch up; want to try to catchup in a more pro town way than my usual "read nothing, start doing things later".

[Nachomamma8]

the Great American Beer Festival

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Hecatia Lapislazulli

I dislike not science's posts.

[Nachomamma8]

I think people who are 'good' at this game should tell me where the scum motivation in Sakura's posting is, because I seem to be missing it!

I see something about incongruence of sheeping someone and not wanting to understand their stance and blahblahblah, but that's dreadfully boring. Hell, I would have voted just for the sake of the flowchart.

There's also ETL blowing what's been done drastically out of proportion- asking why not to second guess a sheep on like page 2 of the game.

While yes, she has been asking for 'simple' explanations, it looks more like she's vastly overexaggerating what has happened.

Of course, this is IIoA.

If they're town I suspect MS will reign her in.

The attack on Sakura because she wasn't trying to understand Thor's reasons for voting was something I didn't agree with because it seemed pretty clear to me that Sakura wasn't sleeping Thor because she thought he found something, she was just sheeping Thor for the hell of it. However, this rebuttal in and of itself isn't exactly something that's hard to come up with or hard to post, so notscience entering the game and doing this instead of looking for scum is pretty bleh.

I am scumreading them.

I think they are trying hard to oversell a derpy town, along with their vote on us without actually prodding us and trying to read us.

This reasoning is weak. You give no reasons for why they're trying too hard to sell derpy town, no reasons for why their play is even derpy, and the "they're not trying to read us!" point falls pretty flat when you haven't really made any effort to read anyone yourself.

can we acknowledge how massive is nitpicking words like thats supposedly a scumtell? ya have to be smoking something to think thats in any way town.

Massive "nitpicking words" is the argument that he didn't believe that Sakura had the leaning reads she talked about having earlier in the game. And yes, he's attacking semantics, but I don't think his angle was horrible/unreasonable like you're painting it out to be.

Frankly I'm willing to start survivalism voting but there isn't a solid counterwagon and somehow people think thats okay?

"There's no counter wagon! We must be town!" is an atrocious argument.

Can we pretty please just lynch Ank?

I'll give out sexual favors.

We could also lynch davvyboy, because for all the talk he does about how much he scumreads us he sure isn't trying to campaign our wagon or read other people.

Forming a magical scumread on your counter wagon isn't exactly the towniest thing in the world.
Your Davesto push because Davesto hasn't given a lot of committed reads is also easy lynch garbage.

All in all, there's not a vaguely town thought process that not science has been able to form this entire game. His scum reads have been for throwaway, easy reasons and on easy targets; some of his defenses have been true when defending Sakura, sure, but pointing out things that are true regardless of alignment is not a strong indicator of town. His response to ETL's suspicion on him is painfully fake, and while some of Sakura's posts have been OK, they haven't been enough to dig not science out of the whole he's dug for the slot.

Would be curious if Sakura could make a case on why she thinks notscience has been "obvious town", though; I think sometimes hydraing with someone and seeing their play unfold in real time with knowledge of their alignment in mind the entire time can be enlightening and would be curious if she saw stuff that I didn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi nacho

What can I do you for

I know you can actually read me so would you like to chat about whatever it is you are seeing? I was townreading bulge so I think your slot is town but that vote irks me.

If your slot wants to defend itself, would rather see Sakura defend it than you; not overly interested in seeing you defending yourself.

If you want to help me see where I'm going wrong with a read on you, talk to me about your picture of the game; all of your reads have been pretty one-dimensional or shallow and I think you can do better than you've done this game.

[Nachomamma8]

@Thor:
Could you talk to me about your Ank read? The only part of your case I understand (because there are a lot of words and words are bad!) is the following:

So your first instinct on seeing a case from him was to go, he's wrong, but, man, how obvious he's scumhunting what with those wrong conclusions I can see and understand the town and not scum thought process?

I don't really buy that, I have to say.

And I disagree that you can't very strongly townread someone for making an incredibly wrong case. And that wouldn't be a statement I don't think you'd disagree with me on? So I'm misreading something somewhere and I'd like to know where.

[Nachomamma8]

@Lying Cat:

Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.

The belief that Sakura can't be read when she's on the defensive is... strange? As scum, she realizes that people are less inclined to attack her when she's on the defensive and thus goes on the defensive more often; I'm also surprised you're not attacking her hydra partner as a result of this belief because his posts are much more problematic than hers.

Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.

Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one. I can agree/disagree with someone plenty but that doesn't translate into town/scumreading them as a result; most people are that way. It's not like farside went "man, ETL is killing this game, I'm agreeing with everything she's doing holy shit also she's null".

He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.

The way you're trying to figure him out is by doing nothing and asking him to sell you on his vote. I can see why he would regard that push as stupid and instead would rather see you do something else. Maybe you're right and he truly believes that if he explains why he's voting who he's voting and try to sell you on it that he will be revealed as scum and lynched, but I doubt it.

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

I don't think Thor's vote on Vedith was useless. I can see Thor viewing your vote on him to be useless.
I'd like to think the reason for different views on similar votes to be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong? Let me know if so.

[Nachomamma8]

Well I don't even know what i'm supposed to be defending myself from, since notty made those posts and the only thing i know is that we're town and you're misreading us. Your stance bothers me because i know notscience becomes very obvtown and he's been doing so this game, if anything the scumreads im getting is because of my play and not his, so... what?

~Sakura

I'm scum reading your slot because of his play.
I'm asking you to defend him and make a case on not science being obvtown.

[Nachomamma8]

I could make a case on notscience being town if i had to read him, but knowing his alignment beforehand doesn't help.
Also it would be a really bad idea to lynch us, but now that i realize that Davsto claimed JK and he's scumreading us it would be a bad idea if he interfered with our action tonight so im just going to say we're some sort of nerfed gunsmith (nerfed cop? dunno exactly on what kind of category would this role fall).

~Sakura

Full claim.

If he's obvtown, tell me how he's obvtown.

You have the ability to make cases; claiming you don't is ridiculous.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyway, I still don't buy it so I'm gonna be blocking you tonight, but lynching you is not the right choice.

This is unacceptable.

[Nachomamma8]

pistachi0 or Thor?

I won't be voting either of these players today, apologies.

[Nachomamma8]

I liked bulges early posts, he has been pretty accurate reading me when the rest of the playerlist us being stupid. Add on that ank vote which at the time was someone with little to no suspicion on him felt more like something town would do. If he was scum he could have just voted someone already veing voted or someone useless and didn't.

Your case for Bulge-town is that he read you as town early and he voted Ank when Ank wasn't an easy vote?
This is a fairly weak case, but OK.

Coming into this game I wanted to try and get under ca's skin. I was anticipating a fil out because e tls been rather nasty to me lately amd the posts in the maf pt of the last antihero game. So I alternated between lurking and jabs at them and then I didnt see that reaction which bothers me. I liked her responses to me because they made sense to me, and im not sure shes that big of an asshole as scum or why shed be trying to discredit us. There's also what I said about a davvyboy scumflip meaning they are town.

Reading players by "they don't express emotion when scum, they do when town" is the same trap that led to you misreading pieguyn; I have no reason to believe ETL cannot feel anger or frustration as scum. Davesto also isn't flipping scum? Your role and his role work as double investigatives that make sense with the ninja/backup ninja dynamic, and jailkeep makes sense as a protective to accompany the watcher that doesn't work until late game.

I liked wingadings. I liked his response to coming back lurking lurking and I need to reply to his wall but overall I get towns vibes.

This is a weak read.

Im reading Catalan as useless town which I understand is a stark contrast to my earlier stance but im not really interested in lynching them today.

This is a weak read.

Can we stop being bad now and lynch ank

The Ank case is "he doesn't get defensive as scum, and isn't defensive now, and thus is scum". This is pattern matching; it's not a great case.

[Nachomamma8]

pistachi0 or Thor?

I won't be voting either of these players today, apologies.

Why not?

I am town reading both players.

[Nachomamma8]

Dave:

Scum's next two night actions will be spent shooting Hecatia and then shooting you. While there is merit to perhaps targeting Hecatia tonight, that merit disappears completely when you claim that outright, and jail keeping scum means that we get a scumlynch and an innocent and two power roles still, which would put us significantly ahead despite the outcome of today. If we can kill both ninjas before you two are dead, the watcher will be able to protect a PR for what is going to almost certainly be a win. I would suggest flipping a coin between protecting Hecatia and jailing a scumread; saying that there's a chance you will protect Hecatia lowers scum incentive to shoot her but also means scum may take the risk and shoot her.

[Nachomamma8]

LOL WTF NACHO.

how in the hell are you town-reading pistachi0n???? have you played with her before?

Yes. Is there a reason I shouldn't be town reading her?

[Nachomamma8]

The 2nd is like... what... how am i supposed to explain how someone is obvtown when i DONT have to read the slot on my own? If i had had to read him then maybe.

I don't really understand why you're asking me to make a town case on my own hydra partner =/

You made a claim that not science was obvious town, meaning you could recognize that despite not having to read him.
Why was it unreasonable to ask you to explain why he was obvtown?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not actually protecting Hecatia, sorry.

>.>

[Nachomamma8]

Let me guess: you're not protecting Hecatia because other people told you it was dumb without giving reasons?

[Nachomamma8]

You made a claim that not science was obvious town, meaning you could recognize that despite not having to read him.

Because he's always obvtown when he's town

~Sakura

That's not true.
People aren't "always" anything.

[Nachomamma8]

You know what, fuck it, come lynch me i don't care anymore, it'll be fun to see your face for mislynching Town Sakura, when you've never done that mistake before

~Sakura

The only reason I'm continuing this line is so you can see my perspective in asking you to defend not science. I don't suspect you anymore.

[Nachomamma8]

both ninjas

uh what?

The Mafia will have a player with the Ninja modifier and one with a Back-up Ninja modifier. These only apply to the factional kill.

[Nachomamma8]

>Doesn't suspect me
>Vote is still on me
yeah right

~Sakura

Just because I haven't immediately voted you doesn't mean that I am still suspecting you.

[Nachomamma8]

The point is - you don't hold up a case you know is bad (a case that you are scum) as an example for others to see the glory of the scumhunting of a slot.
Sure, maybe (maybe) he looks at that case and gets town vibes, i could almost go along for that one, though I find it less likely than a 50/50, but to go the step further and declare it brilliant to behold? And also to then *not* address your "town read" and talk them down from suspecting you, but instead duck and deploy?

I'm following you now. I'll review that in a minute.

[Nachomamma8]

>Doesn't suspect me
>Vote is still on me
yeah right

~Sakura

Just because I haven't immediately voted you doesn't mean that I am still suspecting you.

I have no idea what this sentence means.

unvoted*

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you opting for the change?

It turns out that I'm better at reading people when I actually read their posts

my eyes are glazing. i'm glad nacho's here but i'm pretty sure at this point that he's scum. i'd like a flip soon.

Because I disagree with your reads?
Why not talk to me about why you have the reads you do if that's the case?

[Nachomamma8]

Anyone who's scumreading Vedith needs to not be. That attack is blatantly town.

This reads like Ank is town reading Vedith for the push on him.
I'd argue he's holding it up as the example of Vedith's scum hunting because it's all the scum hunting that he's done.

And, while I find the read itself dumb, I don't really see why it's a read Ank holds as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

The places I'm currently willing to vote are massive/Cataphant/Vedith; not really willing to vote anywhere else. If there are people who have feelings about one of these in particular, tell me now and lend me your sword. Otherwise, I will choose which one to push when I return and have time to drive a wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho has never scumread me when im town. Ever.
He just wants to use notscience to justify the mislynch and now is harping on me for being unable to show him why notscience is town when I know he's town.

True. I have never scumread you when you were town.
I have, however, townread you while you're scum, and while I don't have any particular problems with your posting, I wasn't confident in a townread there. I disliked not science's posting for the reasons I gave and figured tilting at him would give me his alignment pretty reasonably quickly.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not really inclined to go doing your job for you.

I'll do that later, then.
My job is finding scum. I have read Pistach's and Thor's slot and reached and individual assessment already; taking other people's reads into account is something that happens after my initial impressions are formed.

[Nachomamma8]

This would make sense if you were engaging with him instead of making me defend him, so Sorry not sorry.

I was engaging with him.
I was curious if you had reasons he was obvtown that I wasn't seeing, as I explained in my posts.

[Nachomamma8]

So far I have a taker on Cataphant/massive.
Anyone else?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like being ignored.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Finding a better place for my vote is a stronger priority than explaining town reads in details at the moment.
Do you have comments on the other two names I've given?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not lynching Cataphant or massive today. There are much, much better targets for today.

I'd make one of my big quote walls about pistach but I'm pretty sure that Concrete has said more than enough about the subject that I probably couldn't think of anything new.

Telling me there are better places without telling me why is not horribly useful.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Cataphant

[Nachomamma8]

@Davesto:

i'm not really inclined to go doing your job for you.

I'll do that later, then.
My job is finding scum. I have read Pistach's and Thor's slot and reached and individual assessment already; taking other people's reads into account is something that happens after my initial impressions are formed.

[Nachomamma8]

There is a lot I want to respond to and I will respond to it all eventually. However, at this very moment I am phoneposting and on my way to work so what I respond to and do in this burst of posting will be limited.

It'll likely take me a couple of days to properly catch up; want to try to catchup in a more pro town way than my usual "read nothing, start doing things later".

Just decided to look at Nacho's ISO and ahahahahaha

You don't think that my catchup has been protown? Why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

Regardless, I'm not going to restrict my lynch choices to just the three you have listed. If you want to truly collaborate on your reads, you'll respond to my questions and flesh them out. I like your entrance and I liked your depth of posting but I'm not the kind of player who's going to let someone else arbitrarily choose three people and lynch only out of those three. If you want my support, flesh out all of your reads

I have every intention of fully fleshing out my reads as I form them and when I have the time to type them up; it usually takes me a little while to both develop my reads and get them in thread. I should have a good deal of that process done after work today.

My intention with the three name list was to find a place to push now, not restrict other people's places to vote.

[Nachomamma8]

Ank was town - so...that is assuredly something he does at least do a fair amount as town. So...Ockham.

I agree that town are more likely to scumread people attacking them than not, but this doesn't mean that town can't townread people attacking them. It seems like most people in this thread are townreading Vedith based on his attack on Ank which suggests that the attack is town-looking; I don't think Ank would be blind to that just because he was the one getting attacked.

Explaining why I think Ank is town (if I think Ank is town) is probably going to be a subject of my after work posting; in my read through, I remember liking him based mostly on tone.

[Nachomamma8]

Here he's also using the fact that i've snowed him to show paranoia on my slot, when in recent games he's never had paranoia on my slot when he's town (Point: I haven't rolled scum against nacho in a while, so if he had this sort of paranoia, he would have shown it in games where we were both town like Saki or corpse party, heck he didnt even try to read wisdom and tried to read ME on corpse party where I hydra'd with Wisdom).

I'm using the fact that you can fool me as scum to explain why I'm not satisfied with a townread on your slot just because I'm OK with your posting. I'm not pretending that I can't read you competently; I can. I don't think the posting you've made before the attack on me is posting you couldn't fake as scum or would have trouble faking; you did not have many well-defined pushes, and, as LC pointed out, have been in defensive mode for much of the game. However, I'm also comfortable in my ability to develop a read on notscience and thought that his contributions to the game were pretty lacklustre, hence me pushing him and not you.

In Corpse Mafia, I was less proactive about forming reads in general because that was around the time in my life where I was lurking out a majority of my games; the reason I ended up townreading you, if I remember correctly, was because of your attack on me: I thought your observations were completely on point with the information you had available, hence me telling you I completely understood why you were mislynching my slot.

In Saki Mafia, the reason I was townreading for your slot was - get this - because you were attacking the shit out of my slot early in a way I thought you were unlikely to fake as scum, and also had good looking pushes on Varsoon and later Wisdom.

The takeaway from this is the way that I feel most confident reading you is centered around how you push people and how you treat people you are intimidated by as scum; your pushes in this game have been scattershot at best and, while I felt the whole of your play was townish, I wasn't confident making a strong town call based on your play alone.

Notscience's play, however, was defending you from flawed attacks which is something I feel most people are competent at as either alignment. The rest of his play were scattered and shallow observations on a lot of players; one of his strong points as town and strong town signals is his depth of thought on certain players (paranoia) and I saw no signs of it here; still don't. You're right that the only reason I stopped pushing your slot at first was because of your claim but I don't think it was an unreasonable position to take based on notscience's play.

This was also a post written between distractions, so if anything is unclear, let me know.

[Nachomamma8]

Spent some time with Cataphant's ISO and still see them as a great vote.

My biggest problem with them is simply how weak and garbage all of their pushes were. Their push on Sakura for "weirdly aggressively questioning" was nonsense at best, their vote on Vedith for posting elsewhere was sheeping CA and Thor's quick push there and the push on pistachio (initially for "overjustification in calling out a sqwack and later because "no one was discussing her") felt similarly weak. Progression between these pushes is also practically non-existent; I don't really see any evidence of either head forming reads and that troubles me.

As a smaller point, hiplop's response to pressure (if we're not an obvious counterwagon I don't know what is) is weird and not what I'm used to seeing from hiplop under pressure in the past, but will have to substantiate that later.

[Nachomamma8]

Who in this playerlist would you anticipate me being paranoid of Nacho?

And it's not the same with pie regarding ETL- I think she would be funneling it into the scum PT rather than in-thread.

The paranoia I'm expecting from you is less "oh I'm scared of a strong player!" and more "I'm considering situations that other players aren't".

Paranoia shows depth of process and is town because it considers a wide range of possibilities; it's hard to fake because it takes creativity as scum to come up with thought processes that aren't likely to generate support because they are ridiculous but they also don't look incredibly fake. I expect more paranoia from you than I expect from the average player, but I wasn't scumreading you because of lack of paranoia: I was scumreading you because your thought processes were shallow.

[Nachomamma8]

notty also warned me that he was looking for someone else to throw into the fire after he couldn't push us anymore and that whoever he chose would be Town (In this case Cataphant), he didn't want me to vote him until he had done that.

Like this is the towniest thing that came from your side of the hydra and is what I would classify as paranoia.

[Nachomamma8]

@ Nachomamma8

@Lying Cat: Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one.

I've made this same argument. Why didn't you ask me about it?

I didn't notice you made it; I skimmed your post talking about your big three earlier until I had a laptop; links are something I don't have the patience for on a phone.

[Nachomamma8]

Sneaking in a post the 20 minutes I have before work, gonna see if I can dig into Pistachi0n's posting a bit more

[Nachomamma8]

This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.

Disagree on notscience reading this post as town; it's not an attack I agree with, but not an attack that's particularly scummy.

Most of her posts at first are filler that makes them seem like they're trying to do something, like 78.

I don't understand your point, nor do I understand why 78 is a particularly good example of it. Why is that "pretending to do something" over actually doing something or over simple and plain filler?

Like there are a lot of posts but nothing good until 2/3 into the iso.

Sheeps votes on Vedith.

What is the good stuff that you're referring to?

A few people sheeped votes onto Vedith; why was Hecatia's sheep a special one?

Farside you are making me suspicious.

Asking for name claims and justifying it with vague "I have a reason"

Why is asking for a name claim suspicious?

[Nachomamma8]

In general, I think most of her progressions look pretty decent (she's picked on Hecatia and Davesto and far side plenty and not backing off based on claims makes sense from a newer player's perspective). The read that I don't understand as much as I'd like, which is kind of a big deal, is the read in Hestia; I don't think she really got into reasons she disliked the slot other than "pretending to do stuff" which is a point I'd like to be walked through a bit.

I do think her play is pretty ballsy as scum if she continuously tunnels two people who are outed as power roles and can block/investigate her, and none of her reasoning send a up a red flag where it seems completely made up or disingenuous. It is a problem that her reads outside of her tunnel targets hasn't really been fleshed out, but I don't actually mind this a massive amount since I don't really remember her giving reads on a ton of people in Z Mafia where I played with her last.

Will make reading through Wingback's reasons for voting her more closely a priority.

[Nachomamma8]

But in the meantime, still pretty happy to endorse Cataphant votes.

[Nachomamma8]

@Thor:

I think my assertion that multiple people were townreading Vedith because of his attack on Ank was due to a case of faulty memory; I'm rereading Ank right now to get a better read on the slot.

But first, question for Ankamius:

UNVOTE: Cataphant
VOTE: massive

What changed since your Cataphant vote?

What changed since your Cataphant vote?

I forgot it was Vedith who had been voting for Cataphant until the vote count.

Why was Vedith's vote being on Cataphant before significant enough to make you change your vote here?

[Nachomamma8]

@Ank:

eh, I've mostly been seeing more town than scum markers so far, although a lot of the scum markers I'd expect her to make are more long term from what I can tell.

Could you talk about the town and scum markers you saw for Sakura at this point in time? A major problem I have with your posting so far is that you don't really seem to have much depth in your reads. I think talking about what seems to be a read where you're taking a lot into account and thinking about a bunch of things would help a lot.

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: Cataphant

Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.

I like that you actually decided to follow up on your wagon thoughts from earlier (which backs up that you were townreading Vedith at this point), but I don't necessarily understand why you thought scum had to be on that wagon. Just because the case was bad meant that scum was going to jump all over it?

Are the same three slots mostly drowning out the game.

Oh hey.

I found this post to be more likely to be coming from a town perspective than a scum one; the three slots he insulted were also the three slots driving the game, and I find that it's rare that lower-impact scum step on the toes of all three power players in such a way. There's a chance he does it because it's something that's widely seen as town, but the tradeoff is that you make the people who have the most influence over the lynch in a position where they want you to be scum and I don't think Ank made that tradeoff.

far from sheepable-by-three-players-instantly good.

I don't believe that the strength of a case is what dictates how many sheep it gets; if that were the case, town would win games a lot more frequently than they do.

These posts I found town tonally:

Spoiler: quotes

Hi.

Is that literally the entire Vedith case?

No, the wagon was town driven. It was scum-sheeped.

This 1v1 is going nowhere fast.

You don't know me very well.

Figured.

Take a closer look at how you reached the conclusion and reassess, because you didn't reach the correct one.

I believe Ank is probably more likely to be town than not.
I haven't particularly liked any of his attacks thus far, but I also haven't really minded them all that much.
I don't think his votes have been opportunistic in a "going for a mislynch" type of way.
I think that some of his pots sound good tonally.

As for Thor's case on him, I think that town do scumread attacks on them more often than random. I don't think they scumread attacks against them at such a high rate where not scumreading an attack against you should be cause for concern. I think Ank townreading Vedith's attack against him makes sense with the earlier town read on Vedith, and I find Vedith's case on Ank a reasonable enough thing to townread from an outside perspective.

[Nachomamma8]

Firstly, I'd expect players who have played with Lying Cat before (you, Concrete) to resist the lynch because I've noticed people being notoriously reluctant to lynch within their in-group on D1.

I have the tendency to resist a lynch on a player I know who is null or townier and I feel will be emotionally hurt by a push on them. I have the tendency to resist a lynch on a player who is null or townier that I feel I can read very very well with proper engagement and there has been something preventing me from getting proper engagement with a slot. These are the only two situations where people in the "in-group" get special treatment, and they don't even get that special treatment consistently! I've personally been trying to push and sort people I know well faster; if you think that I'm resisting a lynch because of a personal opinion I have about a player, I'll do my best to reanalyze and explain my process better.

Time for this game is over

The only player who I would prefer to lynch over Lying Cat is Cataphant.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Lying Cats

Still plan to go through that ISO again, but feel like reserving my spot on the wagon is important.

[Nachomamma8]

DICKS DICKS DICKS DICKS SUCKS

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't mean to post sucks but it fits in with the general trend.

[Nachomamma8]

I think we should consider massive for town.

VOTE: pistachio

I don't?

please don't quicklynch. I'd like to hear from everyone. thoughts on yesterday's lynch would be grand too. any ideas on the LC wagon specifically is what I'd like to hear.

I don't think it sprung up as a counterwagon considering the main push came from Wingback/me/Thor.

I don't understand why Cataphant is such a popular target today when they were ignored for most of yesterday while I was trying to get that going; anyone care to explain a change of heart?

[Nachomamma8]

I understand.

May I suggest that my newbieness and lack of accurate reads is potentially why I wasn't killed?

Wondering why scum made a nightkill is unlikely to result in good results so yeh...

are you actually trying to discourage analysis?

i'll analyze and share whatever the heck i want, tyvm.

If scum was killing based on power, they would have killed one of Hecatia/Davesto. Both are not scum but neither died meaning scum likely killed because they were afraid of Wingback.

[Nachomamma8]

My phone is dying and have no way to charge it or use a computer :/.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nachomomma

I looked through the iso, think he had the most suspect reason for voting Lying Cat. He responded to a few of Lying Cat's statements but never directly stated why he was scummy. and he stopped talking after placing the LC vote.

I thought that a Lying Cat vote was good because I agreed with the assertion that he hadn't done much but scumhunt Thor in a way that didn't make much sense and I agreed that scum!Jingle would think that tying himself up with Thor would be a good strategy to skate past a couple of days. I've skimmed your case in the small bit of reading that I have managed to do, but i your reason for finding me scum really "he didn't explain one of his votes"? You notice that I don't tend to explain my votes immediately on making them and you've been fine with all of the explanations thus far, so why is me not getting the chance to explain one of my votes scummy?

I recommend you all look at the very end of the day yesterday, and while my recollection was that everyone was debating between pistachio and lying cat, thor was basically only going one side of that story with NO explanation. I think he did the IC thing where he put his ass on the line a bit to keep his buddy safe. He used the fear of deadline to push people into going onto Lying cat. He's been a strong voice so had enough power to remain mostly unscathed, but upon reflection (especially with wingback flipping town) shows that a lot of what he was saying was BS.

I think pistachio has to go today.

I don't find this explanation to be at all accurate, but maybe my memory isn't what it used to be.

DICKS DICKS DICKS DICKS SUCKS

Nice

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Now say something

useful

, because I'm not just gonna let you get away with fluff.

...what?
I made that post because I didn't have time to read and catch up on the thread.
Do you really think that a player making one fluff post is worthy of a vote?

[Nachomamma8]

^ posts like this? Using fear tactics to get them lynched. Other folks had reasonable stances like "we'll get them if they can't confirm themselves", and you went gung ho the whole time. Saying you "confirmed" they can't prove it.

A town player would see this and react to give them a chance. A scum player who's buddy is the alternative would go gung ho for the original one. Good play in the moment, but it got you caught.

His argument was that LC actually wouldn't be able to confirm himself, which is correct. He said that he really didn't understand the Pishtachi0n and that he would still support LC instead. How is that using "fear tactics"? Also saying that town gives LC a chance to prove himself there 100% is just blatantly false, there's no reason that Thor had to believe LC saying he could confirm himself (it's not like he had claimed a definite way to confirm alignment and being able to confirm role in't the most compelling thing in the world).

it's already obvious there is bussing going on here somewhere. if pist is scum so is cat.

Nacho is being really quiet about this and that is where I'm still leaning on as far as bussing goes.

I'm being quiet because I haven't been around - it's not like you haven't seen me lurk as town before.

What's not to understand?
He was the most popular of the choices you offered - so clearly there was support there.
You sat around reading up.
A push started on LC, who probably had more support than Cat.
You leaped onto the LC wagon without ever really pushing the Cat one.

Why does that confuse you to the gamestate today?

I misjudged the momentum while I was reading.

Nacho - I assume that you were aware?

That I was jailed? No.

[Nachomamma8]

It was more an expression of frustration than a proper vote.

You haven't really made the steps to make a proper vote yet.
Why?

[Nachomamma8]

So why the defensive posturing here? If you have CA as a null, why immediately jump to accuse them of discrediting you?

How should townies respond to being discredited by a townread?

This is a different answer than "rarely." "Rarely" says "I never have an idea what Nacho is, town or scum." This says "I usually have an idea what Nacho is, but then I turn out to be wrong." This doesn't say "it's all null with him," which is what your earlier post said.

Why is this difference significant?

I don't like your recent posting because it feel like you're nitpicking pretty hard - what do you think of Cataphant? What do you think of Vedith?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Cataphant

I still want to vote here today. I don't like the "Thor was pushing fear tactics to get an LC wagon through" argument as a reason for voting Pistach today. I don't like how he made the argument that Wingback flipping town made Thor's arguments look more like bullshit and then didn't explain himself when Thor asked, And part of me was a little unsteady in making this vote because I remembered him making a push I sincerely disliked in Butterfly Mafia but I got events mixed up - he flipped scum, it wasn't the person he was pushing.

I still want to lynch massive despite the pseudo-innocent on him. I haven't like his angles lately and all and have trouble imagining those angles from town actually trying to find scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Cataphant

I still want to vote here today. I don't like the "Thor was pushing fear tactics to get an LC wagon through" argument as a reason for voting Pistach today. I don't like how he made the argument that Wingback flipping town made Thor's arguments look more like bullshit and then didn't explain himself when Thor asked, And part of me was a little unsteady in making this vote because I remembered him making a push I sincerely disliked in Butterfly Mafia but I got events mixed up - he flipped scum, it wasn't the person he was pushing.

I still want to lynch massive despite the pseudo-innocent on him. I haven't like his angles lately and all and have trouble imagining those angles from town actually trying to find scum.

[Nachomamma8]

look at this proper vote I haven't made

Why are you voting Pistachi0n?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't need a huge wall.
I just wanted to know why you voted her in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't need a huge wall.
I just wanted to know why you voted her in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

You notice that I don't tend to explain my votes immediately on making them and you've been fine with all of the explanations thus far, so why is me not getting the chance to explain one of my votes scummy?

You waited until the convenient wagon was building up and then voted to "reserve your place on it."

When I voted LC, there were three votes on them, and three votes on you. If I was just looking for a convenient wagon, why didn't I vote you?

My reasoning for suspecting LC obviously wasn't "reserving my place on the wagon". What is the scum motivation you're assigning to a general preference in liking being on wagons earlier rather than later?

[Nachomamma8]

I literally have no idea what to do, i've been kinda disinterested lately and have been skimming most posts this game.

~Sakura

This is me in a nutshell.

The answer to all of your problems is to vote Cataphant or explain why you don't want to.

[Nachomamma8]

Also I don't get the scum read on them

Do you remember any major pushes they've made this game and why they made them?
In particular, their Pistachi0n push. What do you think of their most recent reasoning?

Did you feel it was discrediting? You have the benefit of reading it after it happened, so I'm curious of your answer.

It was discrediting. Dave gave an opinion, ETL scoffed at him and fed him sarcasm. What else would you call that?

Because I think farside should have an idea of which way she thinks you lean, and I wanted to see if her "null on Nacho" read had any legitimacy.

Her argument was that my play this game has largely been null.
You asked if she was comfortable with my alignment before.
She said rarely, and then said that she had been fooled a lot.

What is her angle here if scum?
What you're implying in hunting for a contradiction here is that she's lying, and thus scum - but why would farside lie as scum about past experience with me?

It seems like Cataphant has a somewhat-decent case against Thor

Can you talk about this more?
What are Cataphant's good points against Thor?

[Nachomamma8]

here's where i was last time i cared

Why is massive in your top town tier?

Nachomamma8 - 3 (pistachi0n, Hecatia Lapislazuli, farside22)

^ i don't understand why this wagon exists? i mean, yeah he's a suspect but we have a night result that says he was jailed.

A suspect getting jailed with a full scumteam alive shouldn't dissuade too many people.

I'm actually down with the idea of lynching Hecatia now.

Why?

I haven't noticed Thor defending Pistach excessively.

[Nachomamma8]

don't be angry with me, i was hoping you could go more in-depth :[

more specifically, why is Hecatia's post scum 101 for coasting (and is farside & davesto scum for doing the exact same things?), and where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

[Nachomamma8]

Scum try to coast on claims.
She is amping up the uselessness of her claim while not scumhunting.
That is coasting.
Both Dav and Farside are at least in here making a read's trail that we can look back on - she isn't. Ergo; she is scum coasting on her claim.

I agree that scum try to coast on claims, but I'm also of the opinion that scum try to disguise coasting when it's happening in that they are far more likely to pop in with surface-level garbage every few days as opposed to just announcing that they aren't doing anything and they don't understand anything; the latter is far more likely to draw immediate attention than the former. I do think that the claim is far more likely to be coming from town than not. Do you disagree with either of these points?

I am openly on record as not understanding nor trying to read her emotions.
That said - I do understand that she has said faking them, as scum, is exhausting.
She is clearly trying to avoid having to give active purpose to the thread - that precludes scumhunting of her and precludes emotion tells on her, and would make sense from a Sakura scum.

OK.

I will reverse challenge you with this - how often does Sakura drop a lot of town tells and then lurk out the game for a phase or more?
I don't have that in my meta understanding of her.
Do you?

Lurking is unusual from her as either alignment.
I see your point re: Sakura having more motivation to lurk out and disappear as scum than she does as town and I agree that the reasons she's lurking out don't really make sense. Would be interested in hearing from notscience at this point, and would be interested in hearing why Sakura needs a useful role in order to post in the game.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't really talk too much about my side of the story because the references that best apply to the current situation lie in ongoing games, so challenge denied.

[Nachomamma8]

where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

To be fair AtE is basically Sakura's shtick.

True?

[Nachomamma8]

Look - I actually already disproved LC's claim that he could be "confirmed".I literally disproved it.The only question now is whether you think he would make that mistake as town or be trying to pass through a load of hogwash as scum.To my mind, that's the only debate point about the clearing (since apparently everyone is buying into the no roleblock/delay/CA is scum issues with the plan) as I'm apparently the only one seeing the otherwise massive holes in the plan even if everything worked the way LC implied, which it pretty clearly doesn't.CA's defense towards Wingback is reading really nitpicky while not picking nits that are actually disproving some of her issues, which is weird and not happy making.That said, i am actually okay with the Pistach push, even though I don't understand the case there, but I'm supportive of the LC push.@Ank - why do you think LC is worth letting live for 2-3 day phases to see if they have an ability? Seriously, like, what's even the point of that? That doesn't seem like a reason to not lynch them today - could you explain why you don't want to lynch them today but would be okay with potentially lynching them later? Because it *sounds* like you're saying that you don't really suspect them, but kinda suspect them - except your phrasing it within the claim buisness, which theoretically should have nothing to do with it as they haven't claimed gak all.

^ posts like this? Using fear tactics to get them lynched. Other folks had reasonable stances like "we'll get them if they can't confirm themselves", and you went gung ho the whole time. Saying you "confirmed" they can't prove it.

A town player would see this and react to give them a chance. A scum player who's buddy is the alternative would go gung ho for the original one. Good play in the moment, but it got you caught.

Lets fucking lynch pistachio, please. I don't normally stick my head out like this.

@dav, I just want to know your thoughts on what I'm saying. You're a rational dude.

You posted this.
People refuted this.
You never defended it.

[Nachomamma8]

@"dodging my reasoning" from thor

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
Tht doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

HE FLIPPED TOWN. YOU WERE WRONG.

Nothing you said to my point fixed you in my mind. Thats why I didn't reply. Sorry.

Let's lynch the viking or the nut, please.

Thor didn't call Wingback scum.

[Nachomamma8]

If what you were trying to say is "LC flipped town thus Thor was just talking a bunch of bullshit" see: Wingback flip.

[Nachomamma8]

You can't possibly think you aren't white knighting, can you?

What?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see how he doesn't see his white knighting.

I don't see it either.
Thor's assessment of his defense seems pretty solidly accurate.

[Nachomamma8]

Fear tactic = "we will have a no lynch if you don't compromise based on this information I have"

What?

[Nachomamma8]

When did that happen?

[Nachomamma8]

does it not bother you that thor essentially ignores pistachio until he's called on it, nacho?

It seems like Thor initially townread Pistach for reasons I don't remember. Then he was lukewarm on the lot. Then he pushed a scumread over a lukewarm read. And then Pistach wagon rose up because it was the LC wagon was Pistach's fault and because Pistach wasn't scumhunting and then Thor argued against both of these points.

I don't view this as an unreasonable partner interaction but I also don't think it looks particularly bad regardless of Pistach's alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess what I'm saying is, even if you're playing the game of your life as scum, or are being a great townie, wouldn't you expect everyone in this game to have SOME sort of feeling about your alignment?

I don't mind people nullreading my slot when I haven't had many opportunities to do things: I agree that my posting up to that point was largely null. I also wouldn't have a problem with your push if this was the point you were trying to make, but that didn't seem to be the case then and doesn't seem to be the case now.

but seems less well-formed than his Thor read.

My problem with the pushes are that they both seem horribly underdeveloped.
His cases, in a nutshell, are "Pistach was the LC counterwagon and needs to die" and "Thor started the Pistach counterwagon and thus they are scum together" which read like he's just pulling shit out of his ass and I can't say why anyone seems to be buying into it.

Maybe you thought LC would be more of a threat.

LC had four solid townreads, two of them because of claim. I was one of those townreads.
Why would he be a threat to me as scum?

I really don't understand how Nacho has the same amount of votes as Pist or Cata?
Seriously... I must be missing something for this... Someone give me the run down?

I men, Pist's reason for voting Nacho was 1237 - When countered it's because LC was more of a threat?

UNVOTE: Cata
VOTE: Pist

Why is this worse than what Cataphant is doing?
Cataphant's cases make me want to tear my eyes out; Pistach's are misguided, but at least it seems like a thought process a townie could have as opposed to the "fear tactics and counterwagon garbage Cataphant is spouting.

[Nachomamma8]

You think both are scum, but I don't.

[Nachomamma8]

Hiplop, it would be awesome if you did something beyond "you know I'm town! trust me! i know the scum because i'm magic!"; my major problem with your slot is that I don't at all understand where you are coming from and the latest posts aren't exactly helping things.

In Disney uPick you did have your "I'm confirmed town" shtick but there was a reason for doing so and you scum hunted plenty in the early stages. I don't remember a game where you continually pushed away people who tried to get you to explain your stances and dismissed anyone who wasn't willing to blindly trust you.

[Nachomamma8]

Hm, honestly nacho, I get what you mean. I haven't really tried to get you to see where I'm coming from. Sorry.

To me, it is just incredibly clear that pistachio is scum. Like even if they flip town I'm going to think hes scum . I understand that's a hard thing to understand.

If Pistach flips town, then what happens?
Have you been this confident about reads in the past and pushed them in this way?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: What are you expecting from hippy? I have seen him do nothing before and be disappointed when he flips town. I also have seen him work hard as town.
I would like this to be more then meta issues.

Lurking is not the main issue: the main issue is that he has very confident reads he can't explain and the reasons he do provide are garbage. If town, I can't see where he's coming from. I haven't experienced that problem in a game with him before.

[Nachomamma8]

{Massive, hiplop, Davesto} - confirmed town

{Concrete Angels} - probably town

{Vedith, Thor, farside, Ankamius} - Remaining

Of the last group, I think Vedith/farside are the most likely. The N1 kill doesn't really make sense coming from Thor and Ankamius has the strongest play individually of the group. Vedith had decent interactions with Pistach yesterday while farside really doesn't have a whole lot going for her right now, so that's where I want to start.

Vote: Farside22

[Nachomamma8]

How is hippy confirmed town.

My role.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's comments about lack of interaction with pist is pretty hypocritical considering he didn't interact either.

My comments about the lack of interaction with pist didn't exist. When I said you haven't done much of anything, I mean exactly that.

because nacho didn't want to vote for his partner.

This point isn't great!

Part of the reason I'm suspicious of Nacho is that I've just generally found him scummy.

This point is worse!

Wow, I get "suck its" for "I don't really see the cse on Pistach".
Oh people.

Do you see it now?

[Nachomamma8]

buddy-buddy Day 1

Have you ever caught me as scum using this tell?
I remember you using it to suspect me in the Crosstown where you neighborized me, and I remember you using it to suspect me in zakk's mini normal, but I don't remember you calling me "buddy-buddy" as scum.

That said he has had a noted lack of paranoia about me.

One reads list is not a reflection of how much paranoia I have of you as a player.
If it makes you feel better, I didn't like how you jumped to my lynch as easily as you have and you certainly aren't far off the list if either farside or Vedith happen to be town!

[Nachomamma8]

hiplop constantly bringing it up, by the way, is icky as fuck.

it's actually pretty town as shit
what scum would go "hmmmm why did that townie clear me?"

[Nachomamma8]

it's horrendously anti-town to explain things further and so i won't, sorry.

[Nachomamma8]

So in general, comments made about flips are usually pretty scummy, depending on how they are delivered. However, this one is the opposite. I know Anti quite well and always play in his games if I have the opportunity to do so. I know that he posts the scumteam role PMs into the Scum PT. It's such a subtle, little thing. If farside was scum, it's likely she'd have already have made that comment in the scum PT. There are a million other distancing comments to make. This one was made out of sheer affinity and a desire to share it, nothing more, and it comes across really clear to me, to the point that I would offer myself to die before her.

p-edit: We're not lynching Thor today.

...what?

[Nachomamma8]

That picture wasn't in Pistach's role PM, which is the only way that you would have a point that I could understand even a little bit.

[Nachomamma8]

And before it's questioned, expected to be mislynched by now, so wanted to get confirmed town reads out there before I died. Explaining the exact nature of my knowledge doesn't make me any more town but gives scum information they shouldn't have, stating my role name gives you absolutely no explanation, but staying silent means that the knowledge is lost.

[Nachomamma8]

oh hey too late!

[Nachomamma8]

Dave

could

be scum, actually.

Hiplop and massive can't, but Dave could.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm confident enough in farside-scum.

Think ETL-Thor-Ank all look pretty town.
Could lynch Vedith but he's admittedly probably not scum.

I've been thinking the jailkeep claim is town town town because of its interactions with ninja-psychologist but that might be misguided.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: I want you to explain why the wing kill is odd to you when wing stat d the following day 1?

Davesto and Hecatia outed as specific PRs yesterday; both seem like scarier targets than "unspecified PR".

ETL, I didn't do anything last night.

[Nachomamma8]

ok. your life actually depends on your claim at this point nacho. it's too vague and I can't make heads or tails of the facts enough to make an educated decision. because there aren't enough facts. so I really need you to claim, otherwise I'm happy lynching you.

I'm a complete and total idiot; I shouldn't have claimed what I did and for that I apologize. I'm going to try to gamesolve more because outing what I know is literally worse than getting mislynched (and, again, wouldn't make me look town in any capacity whatsoever), so I'd rather try to focus somewhere else and try to interact elsewhere and salvage something from this fuck up. If that's not acceptable, lynch away, but please make sure I can say something in twilight.

[Nachomamma8]

Should I put in here that cata was a scum read for Nacho day 1?

Yeah, there you go.

Yes?
I'm not claiming that I knew hiplop was town from the start.
And I didn't use an action last night (or night 1).

[Nachomamma8]

ok.

Do you still think farside is town?

[Nachomamma8]

nacho saying he confirmed me is making me confused

Probably trying to take you down with him or something. Largely WIFOM. Ignore it.

I don't understand this response - why do you have such a strong scumread on me where everything that I say is WIFOM and trying to take hiplop down with me? Why would me fake-confirming someone as I'm getting lynched lead everyone to believe that we were partners?

Now you are happy with Cata not being scum? I think that it's because of being too hard of a lynch.

I wouldn't mind at all hearing how Cat dropped out of Thor's suspicion list after yesterday for Thor, although I'm assuming it's mainly his Pistach push.

hiplop constantly bringing it up, by the way, is icky as fuck.

If I was town and he were scum - wouldn't he instead just assume I got a faulty clear somehow and thus be happy with killing me so I couldn't correct it?

If we were scumpartners, I don't understand why him bringing it up a bunch would be a big deal since I was under far more pressure at that point than he was.

This makes no sense.
You should know by now that once a flip occurs your role is known.
Why would you think with-holding info and probably lynched helps town?

This is really simple your lying about your claim and trying to earn points by not being part of the pist wagon
Or you got info.

I think that the information given was fairly important.
Describing how I got the information or what that information exactly is is anti-town.
I should have kept my mouth shut and lynched you, but I'm an idiot and so I didn't.

I don't understand your position where there is nothing I could claim that you would believe. I don't think it makes sense from a town perspective; if you were scum and I were town, you would be expecting me to make a claim that made sense, but if you were town and thinking that I was scum, your expectation would be more along the lines of expecting me to stall and say nothing, no?

[Nachomamma8]

nacho if you are lynched and flip town the information in thread is all we have so no it is not worse to claim. I can't believe you're even saying that.

Then maybe I'm saying it for a reason!!!

[Nachomamma8]

Which means that you're not thinking of this specific possibility or I'm scum who is fakeclaiming vague results without a role in mind.

[Nachomamma8]

I do because both ms and I were townreading her for a while and I don't really see the connection with pistachio.

Why were you townreading her?

[Nachomamma8]

Wingback kill could be scumteam's attempt to hit the watcher - I'm sure they didn't expect additional power roles after Davesto and Jingle and Hecatia added, so that would make sense as a move coming from Thor, but that wasn't really an angle I was thinking about earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

You don't put two ninjas in the game against a tracker.

Psychologist also encourages scumteam to make the scummiest player to make the kill, watcher encourages the ninja to submit the kill, JK enccourages the townies member of the scumteam to make the kill.

That's too gorgeous for the setup to be anything else.

[Nachomamma8]

We're clearly thinking about the setup in a vastly different way. I'm thinking the ninjas are there to get a tracker to townhunt instead of scumhunt.

This doesn't make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

1) If a tracker targets a ninja making a kill, he gets "player goes nowhere".

2)

The Mafia will have a player with the Ninja modifier and one with a Back-up Ninja modifier. These only apply to the factional kill.

So if a player targets someone who wasn't the kill, they could still be the ninja.

[Nachomamma8]

Which means that you're not thinking of this specific possibility or I'm scum who is fakeclaiming vague results without a role in mind.

I mean honestly you managed to sum up my thoughts right there.

Hi Davesto!
I asked you a question!!

People who don't answer questions are losers!!!
Are you a loser?

[Nachomamma8]

The thing about Vedith is his interaction with the Pistach wagon - when Thor and I were pestering him to bail, he refused.
Why wouldn't he swap as scum and blame the townflip on us?

[Nachomamma8]

I also thought the point he made on Thor dropping Cat today was pretty good.

[Nachomamma8]

And? I said it was to encourage the tracker to townhunt, not scumhunt.

What do you mean?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

[Nachomamma8]

Thor's play towards me today seems scummy to me; we were in a very similar position yesterday with regards to Pistachio and him immediately turning to me and being okay with it is pretty indicative of scum-Thor; Farside is almost certainly not his partner based on his interactions with her today.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think Davesto is a safe clear to have; I think that he claimed Ascetic because he is Norma Bates and he's a modified commuter/role blocker; the Norma-Norman connection makes sense thanks to the flavor cop and making jail keeper ascetic to mess up flavor cop/fruit vendor/psychologist/watcher doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He's also been coasting on his claim in every sense of the word; his reactions towards my claim on hiplop that was essentially "don't care, he's probably just tying himself to you so just lynch it" is not a town mindset but is a mindset from scum who has found themselves in a pretty strong position due to claim.

[Nachomamma8]

This game day I feel like I finally woke up seeing nacho's "claim" and seeing 2 investigative roles flip.
Things are just finally coming together.

This sort of killed my scumread on farside, by the way: as scum she doesn't tend to fake emotion past conviction and anger, but the progression of lost to her steadily becoming more sure of me to this post seems extremely town.

Vedith interaction with the town versus scum wagons yesterday makes him highly highly likely to be town; don't think scum refuses to join a townie's wagon when Thor and I are begging him to when he claims scum reads on his buddy and the townie.

[Nachomamma8]

scumNacho hates to bus, and will avoid it at all costs. so make of that what you will, but if nacho is scum, so is thor.

And while I don't really care too much because it doesn't matter, this is a bad piece of meta.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm sorry for playing like garbage recently, my mind hasn't really been in mafia lately so I shouldn't have played but then I love mafia so it always finds a way into my life.

Reads in a nutshell:

HIPLOP + MASSIVE SUPERTOWNFRIENDS
ETL + ANK TOWNFRIENDS
FARSIDE + VEDITH FRIENDS

THOR + DAVESTO BAD PEOPLE

if Thor flips scum, farside is a town friend and vice versa but I really really wouldn't lynch farside tomorrow

I'll miss you hiplop

[Nachomamma8]

And now strike me down so I become more powerful in death than I was in life

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Thor

Judy Barton.
I'm not sure who else was submitted but I suppose I could ask if you really wanted me to?

[Nachomamma8]

You're going to have to give us details because now that we know that the "other commuter" is Norman, it lines up that you're Mother and that's not a good thing.

Somehow missed this part entirely: think the willingness to claim it is good and can definitely buy far side submitting Norma over anyone else.

[Nachomamma8]

But that's not something to really dig into today.

Or tomorrow.
Or ever, really.

[Nachomamma8]

He targeted me N2.

[Nachomamma8]

I was thinking of character claiming because as I said my role said there was a character in the game that could commute and I wondered if the player was scum because I couldn't do it if that player did it.

You're going to have to give us details because now that we know that the "other commuter" is Norman, it lines up that you're Mother and that's not a good thing.

I townread Massive and even so I'm surprised with the strength of support he's getting now.

As normally I'm a prime candidate for a mislynch around D2-3, I'm just as surprised as you are. For whatever reason, scum have been afraid of pushing me ... or possibly happy to leave me be? But that's not something to really dig into today.

Why, it's you pick?
Characters mean nothing.

Nacho: I'm confused by your claim. Your modified backup but didn't do anything to get the info on hoot?
Is that right?

Yep.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah. That explains a lot.

Vote: Davesto

[Nachomamma8]

Before a lynch? Is that before the lynch actually happens or is it at twilight?
What happens if you backup a non-town player?
How would you inspect to a Flavour Cop after Backuping?

Before a lynch happens.
I get their role except I'm still town.
Judy Barton.

[Nachomamma8]

And yes, it works on an Ascetic.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why voting you for coasting is unacceptable; if I remember correctly, your vote on me was for coasting + some pistach reasons, correct?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho - why did you duck these two questions?

I wasn't really interested in pursuing either any further.

The answer to your first question is "OK" and the answer to your second question is "I thought Cata going from a very big scum read to a barely-mentioned one was strange, but feel less strongly about the point now that I see you mentioned Cat in an earlier post today".

I find Davsto's play in regards to Nacho terrible, but it actually looks kind of townish due to how terrible it is.

Why?

Ank continues to do and say nothing - people continue to act like the slot is town.

The slot is town.
I also don't understand your protests wrt the Ank slot if you're not putting any legwork into showing us why we're wrong.

Why did you stop voting me?

[Nachomamma8]

Like, that is the weakest excuse to townread someone I've ever seen.

It is a terrible reason to townread someone, yes.
Why would Thor attempt to defend you at this point instead of push your lynch when he is quite likely to die overnight?

[Nachomamma8]

Just got done moving today, will be back in full in a couple days

[Nachomamma8]

The reason I claimed the hiplop info was because of his drunk "massive is town, pistachio is scum, trust me" is because I thought that he was crumbing to have seen Pistachio making the kill Night 1: that would have made his insistence earlier make complete and total sense. I initially claimed this because I was overly confident and tipsy but wanted to back out of it in a way where I wouldn't get hiplop killed and I wouldn't get lynched.

Was dumb as shit, so sorry about that.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

So you thought that me as scum forgot I was scumreading hiplop Day 2?

Or that I didn't realize I needed to claim to be going somewhere in order to fake having an investigative role?

[Nachomamma8]

I've never interpreted it that way. I interpreted what he said as "I claimed an innocent on hiplop to try and draw a nightkill." I'm not sure why there's so much confusion.

Because it's an easy way out.
If he was town and his role works the way he said it does, then what if he was night killed? We would then have a confirmed on someone who isn't. It's anti town behaviour.

Since my role would be flipped in full, you would also know that I couldn't get an innocent on hiplop based on role.

[Nachomamma8]

So Nacho lied about a confirmed town result.
Then gets indigent when I point out his read on hiplop and the cop flip and heca role makes his claim impossible and now it's down to welp I claimed so scum would shot me.
People wonder why I'm scum reading Nacho

I can't say I remember getting indignant this game? Confused, sure, but not indignant.

I also don't understand the complete second half of this post. Cop flip and Heca role makes my role impossible? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I've already claimed, The Birds, Ascetic Jailkeeper, jailed Nachomamma8 every single night.

You stole my birds!

Mass claim is fine.
I half claimed already so I'm going to just finish.

Norma Bates - town - Reflexive Neighborizer, Modified Commuter

You can't commute if you neighborize someone, I'm guessing?

[Nachomamma8]

I've jailed Nacho every night, and will likely do so for the foreseeable future. As far as I care, that means if he's scum I'm blocking scum (which likely has a good PR besides the main), and if he's town then I'm protecting a strong PR that doesn't currently have any actions so I'm not stopping him from being useful.

Regardless of my alignment, you're reducing your chances of actually blocking a kill to zero, which is strange when blocking the kill is the strongest offensive capability the jailkeeper has.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't say that I understand why.

[Nachomamma8]

You think that there were 2 ninjas put in the game to counter a delayed watcher?

If your information on massive N1 is that he targeted me, he's also confirmed town.

[Nachomamma8]

Ascetic Jailkeeper makes sense because it has a fine interaction with scumblocker.

Duplicate roles are to be expected with my specific backup role, which is likely designed to make lynching counterclaims less scary for town.

[Nachomamma8]

Hiplop - Tracker
Davesto - Ascetic Jailkeeper
Vedith - Ascetic
Farside -Neighborizer/Commuter
Nacho - Backup
Ank - Delayed Watcher
Massive - Focused Watcher

Ank, if you were role blocked on Night 2, does that mean you wouldn't receive your results from Night 1?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: massive

I was wrong, I think. He's the ninja.

What are your results?

[Nachomamma8]

You think that there were 2 ninjas put in the game to counter a delayed watcher?

If your information on massive N1 is that he targeted me, he's also confirmed town.

Your information on him is less significant than this piece of reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

All of those roles interact with each other well, I don't think a particular claim strongly stands out which means that everyone is probably telling the truth about role.

As far as usage, am most suspicious of Davesto's: he doesn't really seem interested in pursuing scum with the jailkeep and more seems to be looking for a place to throw it, which I don't like. I'm also reminded of his weird shift on targeting Hecatia: he originally brought up that he could possibly WIFOM protect her so she didn't die, then completely backed off the idea when it was challenged a little bit without a strong explanation why, which reads like scum coaching to me.

[Nachomamma8]

Hiplop getting blocked is also decently strange to me; if there is a scum blocker in the setup, seems like that would assuredly be Vedith; Ascetic blockers on both sides could serve to fix interactions between them.

[Nachomamma8]

Currently, think lynching Davesto is the right call - think there's a good chance he's scum, giving him my power makes me a bigger threat especially with massive watching me; if he's scum, lynching him today is almost certainly a win.

Want to wait for the rest of the information to come in before diving deeper, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Claim order should be massive -> hiplop --> Ank.

[Nachomamma8]

It makes most sense for massive to claim first since there's no chance of him catching scum in a lie; scum know who they targeted/when they targeted me, so.

Hiplop as Tracker has less potential for information gain thanks to role blocked + weaker role than Ank`s.

[Nachomamma8]

Reflective.
I need to be targeted in order to have a neighbor.
It's a pretty crappy role when no one targets you.

So there's no reason for you not to commute every night?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think you dumb.
What I see is since you were scum reading hippy and pist being your scum buddy was lynched instead you invented a reason to call hippy town.

Why would I need to invent a reason to call hiplop town when he lynched my buddy?
Why would I want to call hippy town as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

How is that possible?

How is what possible?

[Nachomamma8]

Last night in particular, if I'd have blocked any kills, I almost certainly would have been accused of being scum.

Last night, if you blocked scum's kill, why would you be accused of being scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I wasn't sure on the other players, whereas by jailing Nacho I am either stopping a Backup from dying (without actually blocking them from doing anything) or stopping one scum member from doing anything in terms of role actions (which they likely have a fairly powerful one) or kills (forcing only one scum member to do the kills).

You are blocking me from dying when I'm not likely to die (as town). As scum, you have no real clue what my role is but you sure as hell aren't blocking the kill so close to useless.

The only way you're marginally doing good is if I'm scum (I'm not) and even if I am scum you're the only way that town can block kills and you're instead publicly announcing your targets and allowing scum to shoot whoever the hell they want, which is dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

You asked him a question about his read and just moved on and I notice he isn't really pushing you to explain anything.

Why would I push him to explain anything?
What have you pushed him to explain?

[Nachomamma8]

No. I haven't done it. I thought even day 3 when I said I'm not commuting because I'm hoping someone will target me would get someone to target me.

My question was more along the lines of "is there anything that could prevent you from commuting?". I noticed that Norman couldn't use his commute if he decided to voyeur or if you decided to commute, so I was wondering if you had a similar clause in your role.

[Nachomamma8]

I was confused by the wording but I read it as though you were saying lynching a CC is less scary when there are duplicate roles.

Lynching a CC is less scary when you have a backup that can take over one of the lynchee's roles, thus having duplicate roles would make some measure of sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Speaking of full claiming, where is anka with his results?

Hiplop still hasn't claimed.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Vedith

[Nachomamma8]

Farside's playing today well if she's scum.

I don't have a ton of time for posting right this second I don't think but I'll hopefully be around later.

[Nachomamma8]

Massive, why did you watch me over Hecatia N2?

[Nachomamma8]

Farside is mixing up details but that's not scummy.

Vedith is scum, let's lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Like let's just lynch Vedith. I promise it will be fun. I promise we can go on one more magical carpet ride together just vote Vedith. Please.

[Nachomamma8]

Farside is not a VI. She's also not ignorant on how the game works. She's either sdcum doing this on purpose or town who is paying no attention to the game, which isn't believable based on her posts today.

Farside has never played a game as scum where her strategy was "pretend a bunch of things make no sense and get townread for it".

[Nachomamma8]

That's not the point?

[Nachomamma8]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

[Nachomamma8]

<3 hiplop

[Nachomamma8]

I do think it's really weird he didn't bring up the fact he was Ascetic until three days later, although thats a weaker point when I was the only one who knew Davesto was also Ascetic =(

[Nachomamma8]

It's okay I messed up a bunch this game and doubted you for a super long time when you were right and I was wrong and then I trusted you too much!

so

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of the late Ascetic counterclaim?

It also might mean that your scumdar is broken, you know.

[Nachomamma8]

But I doubt he'd fakeclaim ascetic when there are so many investigatives that could incriminate him by, you know, getting a result.

I'm sure he is Ascetic, just not town Ascetic.

[Nachomamma8]

let's all kill before together

[Nachomamma8]

That makes much more sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Let's vote Vedith together farside!

[Nachomamma8]

There were many roles I could have gone with but I chose the one I don't know. Not to mention being a weak role to the rest.

What are you saying here, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

too many of y'all are just too shifty!

:'(

i thought we had something special going on

[Nachomamma8]

we doooooooooooo

its not you its me <3

i just need to sort out some me stuff before we move on

if this is a partnership, we need to sort through this together
what do you want from me?
what are you thinking about?

why do me/davesto work as a scumpair?
why do me/farside work as a scumpair?

why could ank be scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Why is this the only thing you can think of for why she would do this?

Why else would she do that as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

It means there's no one in this game still alive that I can point to and be confident they're town.

And what are you doing in order to change that?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm reconsidering my Nacho read to be fair though, he's day 4 is much better and more thoughtful then most of the other days and I'm getting the impression he is trying to figure the players out in the game.

I'm getting the opposite impression. I never had a significant scumread on that slot, but it's starting to get there today. I'm getting that same feeling I got last time I played against Nacho's scumgame, and I was foolish enough to ignore it last time.

There's nothing I can say or do in response to this post to help you read me correctly, and if you're approaching reading me in this way, you won't end up with a correct read on me.

The way that I've played this game is not typically how I play as scum; I'm more comfortable as scum than town pushing lynches away from me (because I can make up good-looking stances, use good-looking reasoning), and I certainly wouldn't have played the hiplop/claim situation the way that I did as scum.

For reference:

#swag Wars: When I was about to be the lynch of the day, I claimed backup rolecop and managed to get the mislynch of a player that would almost certain to be confirmed town if I was lynched first. The real reason I was a suspect is because of POE, and despite my partners trying to bus me for a majority of the day, I didn't get lynched.

Matriarchy Mafia: One of my weaker scumgames, but I still guided several lynches away from my scumbuddies at the beginning of the day, and my claim (backup to the innocent child) would have almost certainly saved me if I wasn't hammered before I managed to get the claim out.

Then compare to when I was mislynched here:

Saki: A bunch of people didn't like my play, mostly for activity reasons. Couldn't really say anything to fight my lynch.

Inorganic Chemistry: Scum were playing better than town, I got POE'd out because I was a lurker. Again, couldn't really fight my lynch.

I normally don't play this poorly as town, but the way I've sort of stumbled and fucked up through earlier days is 100% a staple of my town game. There's no real reason for me to duplicate that as scum to push this argument, which is dumb when my normal scumgame works so much better than this.

[Nachomamma8]

Just glancing at context, day three she thinks the scumteam is suddenly in a lot of trouble, then day four she realizes there's a lot of outs and town isn't unified anymore and just wants to keep town from getting organized again.

And how exactly is she doing that by pushing arguments with obvious holes?

[Nachomamma8]

It means there's no one in this game still alive that I can point to and be confident they're town.

And what are you doing in order to change that?

Posts like this are why I'm really nervous about you right now.

When you say you don't have any confident townreads, it's a cop out. If you don't have confident townreads, you should be pushing like hell or doing

something

to form them, there should be panic and urgency in your town which there really hasn't been as of late.

I believe that hiplop is probably town. The way that he pushed Pistach didn't really seem like a bus to me, the tracker role makes sense, his play seemed pretty damn genuine today when he's in a good position to start pushing through the mislynches he want. In my most paranoid moments, I think he could be scum, sure, but the chances of him actually being scum are slim.

I believe that you are town. I think that your play and actions make sense; I think the way you were genuinely confused (worried, almost) about the townreads on you seemed like you had a strong power role, and the "I am the reason scum have a ninja" line was something that I can't really see you saying as scum. Your paranoia feels genuine.

I believe that farside is town. Her emotional progression from agitated to frustrated at being ignored to calming down a bit and trying to go back over the game to see what she missed means that the exchange she had with you was probably not faked; I like her latest play, and although her aggression early game wasn't what I expected it to be, I've failed reading her on that basis in the past. I think her role makes a lot of sense as a town role interacting with Norman and less sense as scum on the same team (factional ninja + backup ninja + shared commuter is inelegant), although one more question for her: Farside, if you attempted to use your commute while Norman also used his commute, would you be informed it failed?

I don't know about massive. I've been thinking about farside's problems with his claim lately and they make more sense than they did before. I don't think if I had his role I would tie myself to someone that would be living for a long time; yes, it does make sense to try to catch more actions when the scumteam has two ninjas, but even so, why not target someone who was almost certainly going to die to see if scum tried to mess with their actions overnight?

I don't know about Davesto; his actions make absolutely no sense, and none of his posting has really stood out as town. I'm not sure if Jailkeeper + Watcher + Tracker make sense in the setup.

I don't know about Vedith; I guess I like that all he's done lately is go "well what happens after I flip town???" and I still like his interactions with Pistach, but I don't know how he treats his partners as scum so that could be an incredibly bad reason to clear him.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

I think the part where I'm happiest working from is farside/Ank/hiplop town.
I didn't realize how unsure I felt about massive.

[Nachomamma8]

Who, if scum, had to submit the kill N1, which is sort of a concern thanks to the following:

Mafia members may not perform the factional kill and an active ability on the same night.

[Nachomamma8]

Night 2 clears who?

[Nachomamma8]

I've been drinking, so my logic might be kind of shitty right now.

[Nachomamma8]

Davsto is confirmed not scum with massive or me, since both of us saw him target you.

He's confirmed Jailkeeper, sure. I never doubted that.

[Nachomamma8]

There's no way farside should expect us to believe that she's read well enough today to change her opinion on Nacho, after blatantly and obviously failing at reading comprehension around the watcher claims.

I don't understand the point you're making here.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Massive

[Nachomamma8]

Didn't you read Nacho my questions and thought process on massive was scummy because ......
Yeah that.

I don't understand why your thought process on massive was scummy, and it hasn't really been explained to me all that well.
Let's lynch him!

[Nachomamma8]

I also like how this game is essentially pointing fingers and going "OK, let's kill that guy now!".

That's how mafia should be.

[Nachomamma8]

Neither of them make any sense at all, mostly.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho did anything change about your thoughts on Massive since your post about reads to me?

Since my post where I said that I wasn't sure about massive because I thought his claimed actions made sense from a scum perspective? No.

[Nachomamma8]

I did think that him claiming no action on N1 when Hecatia investigated him (and thus he had to submit the kill as scum) is a pretty big black mark against the slot, though. Did you comment on that before?

[Nachomamma8]

hiplop i know it's terrible of me to ask this of you
especially after all we've been through together

but could you do more?