Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Rob14]

I read The Doctor (capitalized) as a Doctor Who reference, not a mafia role reference.

Yo Plot - I want your hydra partner to read this exchange and tell me how I should respond to it.

Pussy. Respond to it yourself.

Worthless posts designed to look town.

"Not quite random" vote on a player who hasn't posted yet.

VOTE: Persivul

[Rob14]

Is Persivul's first post

right

after someone's voting on him indicate his possible lurking?

This is newb town.

And no, it doesn't indicate that.

[Rob14]

Adaptive, do you think Kurio's post is wrong or scummy? Note the join date.

[Rob14]

Kittehs is town. I'm going to reread the first two pages tomorrow because I was in a hurry when I did it yesterday. I probably missed some useful things.

Bro is also town-looking at the moment, but something is giving me an uneasy gut feeling there. Probably that data point post.

[Rob14]

Adaptive, do you think Kurio's post is wrong or scummy? Note the join date.

Same question to Mala for that matter.

[Rob14]

I'm getting to this game tomorrow with a full re-read. I expended all my energy on another game, and it's late.

[Rob14]

Forzen's 17: Why do you think players who aren't the Doctor are even in the game? Based on the flavor and my role, I thought we were all 13 Doctors?

Davsto's entrance is kind of weird. Places no vote and just gives some random theme-related questions. Comments on nothing at all. Not sure what to make of this; I'll have to dig into meta later.

BRO is town based on page 2. On rereading, I don't really have that bad gut feeling anymore.

Mala's push on me is kind of weird, now that I'm looking at it again. She says I'm sheeping, but I'm the first person to call Persivul scummy for his shitty posting? I don't really understand that. The rest of the post reeks of town, so the slot is probably town. Frozen asked me why, but the answer is going to be kind of general: #49 looks like genuine scum-hunting. It doesn't at all look like Mala's faking it or trying to just look like town.

In #63, Persivul OMGUS pressures Frozen instead of answering her question. Care to answer it now?

Ah, Ari pointed out the missed question as well in #67. He can be town for now as well.

#76: Referring to the Doctor as "Doctor Who" is silly. Capitals --> character, lowercase --> role. Simple.

Also noting that Davsto has contributed less than nothing to the thread by page 3. No reads. No nothing. Just RQS questions and then sorting out a Doctor/doctor convention.

#78: In my experience, hesitant pushes are more likely to come from town than from scum. That's why I said that Kuroi is newb town. I regularly see newb scum act either more aggressively or more cautiously (i.e. not making pushes at all), but newb town tends to be overly concerned with being wrong. Obviously, this read is subject to change; I

am

basing it off only one post at the moment, after all, but it's as good a read as any by page 2.

It's interesting that Davsto's first non-bullshit post is #83, where he defends Frozen. Still no reads or anything.

#93: Because it wasn't a question directed at Pers? It was a question that appeared to be directed to the players at large. I happen to be one, so I answered.

I didn't realize there was an experience requirement for this game, which does indeed wipe away the weak read I had on Kuroi.

Davsto is a good wagon.

VOTE: Davsto

[Rob14]

That was all stream of consciousness as I did a full read-through, so let me know if you have any questions.

[Rob14]

I was reading as I go, so I didn't realize Bro had already said it while I was writing it. You can't know that I'm telling the truth on that, though, so it's w/e. It's pretty difficult to come in and make good unique points when reading that far from behind, which is somewhat frustrating.

Davsto - a single read would help. You don't need reads on everyone. Just a couple. Your read on me is your first, at least as evidenced in your posting.

[Rob14]

Re: Ari

I do stream of consciousness as scum too, so it is kind of my playstyle. I only do it when I have to catch up, because I know no other way to catch up really.

[Rob14]

If you get around to meta'ing Davsto, please provide links to the games you use, because I may take a look too. I can't guarantee it because I have family obligations coming up (grandpa going for surgery, helping around that household for a week or so) but I'll take a peek if I have time.

[Rob14]

Hope all is well with your grandpa! Good luck to him!

Just a hernia. He and my grandma take care of my three cousins, so I'm mostly needed to help with driving them around while he's on pain meds.

[Rob14]

Re: Ari

I do stream of consciousness as scum too, so it is kind of my playstyle. I only do it when I have to catch up, because I know no other way to catch up really.

Really didn't like this post. Why did you bother pointing out that you do that as scum too?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

Because he was using bad meta? I can either point it out now, or he can dig through my meta later and figure that out. Same result, but in the latter option, he's wasting time he could be using finding scum.

[Rob14]

You can literally see in the post above yours how it helped him form reads. Why would I want to not help other players in forming their reads?

[Rob14]

For your own consideration then, what do you think about the motive behind the comment from Kurio, considering it comes directly on the back of your vote on Persivul, and FAQ's response to him as well?

Personally, I think it's just as likely a result of reading Persivul's ISO or the game thread as an attempt to intentionally slur. Given this game's experience requirement, Kuroi cannot be a newbie, so my read on this post goes back to being pretty null. It could be the result of him coming from a different format. I saw it as a question rather than a slur.

[Rob14]

You realize most accusations of no scum-hunting came

before

that post, right? Not to mention 2/3 of that post is a defense and talking about a clarity issue?

Can you show us a single read or bit of scum-hunting you did before that post?

[Rob14]

Ari's commented multiple times related to meta (nine appearances via Ctrl + F in his meta). He specifically stated he did not know my scum meta, so if he was using it as a major part of my read, it's fairly obvious he was eventually going to go looking for it. It absolutely would have come up.

I could have let it go, yes, but it would have come back to haunt me when he goes through my meta and finds that I literally just did it as scum in a micro. There's no-way anyone who even takes a cursory glance at my meta would miss the monstrous catch-up stream of consciousness post I did in my most recent game. Why turn it into a multi-page conversation over why I withheld that information when I can just be open about my meta and call it a day?

I tend to be very open about my meta when people ask about it or comment about it. I routinely re-read old games of mine to identify differences in my town and scum meta and fix them. I find that openness is the best policy both for my town and scum games because it encourages people to read me based on motivations, not based on my meta, which I deliberately obscure.

And if you don't believe me on that, well, check my meta.

[Rob14]

Forzen's 17: Why do you think players who aren't the Doctor are even in the game? Based on the flavor and my role, I thought we were all 13 Doctors?

This was what I was trying to say in my clunky, confusing paragraphs. Thanks for making it make sense Rob!

Seriously?! You couldn't explain it more before?

I thought Doctor who's are just good people. I didn't notice we're 13 guys in game. yeah it might be true. But why would we fight other doctor who's?!?

This is a bit of an aside, but I think it'll be helpful to aid enjoyment for those not familiar with flavor so...

Spoiler: Quick summary of source flavor

Doctor Who is a series that follows a man called the Doctor in his travels through time and space. The Doctor belongs to a species called the Time Lords. They look like humans, but have many key differences, such as having two hearts and the ability to regenerate. Each Time Lord can regenerate up to 12 times (for 13 total incarnations). Basically, whenever their body is faced with extreme stress that would normally kill a person, their regenerative energy is released and they heal themselves by creating a new body. They're still the same person, but their personality often changes a bit and their looks can be quite different (even changing genders).

The Doctor has regenerated 13 times already. He was given an extra set of regenerations by the Time Lords due to his aid during the Time War among other things. So there are 13 separate actors who have played the Doctor. (This is a clever mechanism to keep the show going as actors move on, by the way).

Between the 8th and 9th incarnations of the Doctor, there was a Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks (an evil race of aliens whose only goal is to kill, destroy, and "exterminate"). This Time War escalated quickly and affected all of time and space. The Doctor fought in the Time War and ultimately destroyed both the Daleks and the Time Lords (or so was thought at the beginning of the reboot; they've both since come back). He supposedly did horrible things during the war and when he ended it because the war was escalating and the Time Lords were becoming just as bad as the Daleks. This is one possible mechanism for "evil" Doctors. The incarnations of the Doctor that fought in the Time War or immediately surrounded it could be viewed as bad, given what they were forced to do to fight in and ultimately end the Time War.

Alternatively, someone could be impersonating an incarnation of the Doctor. idk

But basically the different regenerations are the important bit to understand. That's how different Doctors could be against each other - they have different personalities.

[Rob14]

The Davsto wagon is hitting resistance, and I don't think that's a coincidence. In particular, I believe several people have said that commenting on flavor and having fun with it isn't scummy.

That's not the point. Commenting on flavor is fine. Not commenting on anything else for four pages despite looking at the game at least four times

is definitely scummy

. Characterizing the issues that I and multiple others take with Davsto as simply taking issue with the "fun with flavor" is a strawman.

[Rob14]

Soren's post was horrible, but that's not a reason to oppose the Davsto wagon as a whole. Soren's a weak scum read for me too at the moment, although this could also just be playstyle.

[Rob14]

Just to be very clear, my flavor spoiler was meant more to educate on regenerations than to speculate. I probably did more speculation than I should have. The mod probably did randomize scum to regenerations now that I think about it. It would have been wise to do so.

Adaptive, I have to think about what you just said in terms of the timing.

I don't see much testing the waters from newb-scum. I generally see either aggressiveness or passiveness in a fairly absolute form, at least very early in the game. Testing the waters comes from newb-town unsure how to find scum more often than newb-scum trying to figure out where to push, in my experience.

Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

VOTE: Persivul

[Rob14]

Please don't hate me but ...

V/LA from 12/28 to 1/3

I realize that's a whole week. I'll be able to provide some content during that time, but given my grandpa's surgery, I'll be way more tied up than normal. I'll still be able to post at least once every 1-2 days, but I'll have to put off in-detail stuff like looking at meta or ISOing lots of people until after the 3rd.

I'm going to try to ISO everyone and give a reads list before I leave. I should be able to make that happen.

[Rob14]

1) You moved onto me when I had two votes (highest at the time) with some really shitty reasoning. You argued the reasoning to the ends of the earth, using strong statements such as "reek of scum", which isn't itself scummy, but ...

2) Other people move off of me, and then suddenly you "feel better about me". You don't give any rationale for this at all. You do reference today's posting and now say you switched to me due to "scummy posting" in the first place, so I assume you haven't gone back on your reasoning from before and are just claiming I'm less scummy lately.

This does not feel like a natural transition at all. It feels like you hopped on to me when a wagon formed and hopped off when the wagon left. Your rationale for joining the wagon looks manufactured. Worse, you're saying that my posts lately which seem townish or nullish (we don't even know, because you've given none of that rationale) somehow nullify my posts earlier that "reek of scum" enough so that you want to vote Soren over me (who you've apparently seen nothing scummy enough from to bother referencing any post or play of his).

You don't need a PBPA to make a vote. You probably should give a reason if you don't want it to look contrived. I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

[Rob14]

Persivul, like 3 people said they thought I was town between your vote and unvote. The wagon was sinking fast.

I am prone to hyperbole, but I stand by the fact that "reeks of scum" is indicative of a strong scum read or at least a point that would have to be addressed before you'd reconsider your read. It's a particularly strong statement.

[Rob14]

Like, anyone can look at the tread and see there was no longer any pressure or momentum in that wagon. You even basically admit as such. So why you're trying to claim I'm misrepresenting the game state is beyond me.

[Rob14]

Probably most concerning is that you decide to go a different direction without providing a reason (and now refusing to explain your reasons) after stuff like this:

Do you think scum are more likely to point out that someone is townreading them for the wrong reasons than town?

These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

I don't see it.

Pers, why do you attack Frozen and Rob for looking town? It seems a bit early in the game for that kind of paranoia to be genuine.

Because he was using bad meta?

So what? He was town reading you from it. If you're town and you know it's really a null tell, why bother pointing that out? How does that advance this game?

I can either point it out now, or he can dig through my meta later and figure that out. Same result, but in the latter option, he's wasting time he could be using finding scum.

False dichotomy. You could have just let it go.

You can literally see in the post above yours how it helped him form reads. Why would I want to not help other players in forming their reads?

These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

This is a really bad push all around. He gave information - something that is always good as town. I have seen nothing that I would remotely consider townie from you yet. Your 'case' against rob is really stretching at this point.
VOTE: Persivul

In the space of a page. Not only was there no momentum on my wagon, but there appeared to be some scrutiny coming your way. I don't think it's a coincidence that you face scrutiny and then decide to go in another direction for opaque reasons. Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else. Town has a motivation to find scum, not to avoid scrutiny, especially on Day 1.

It's fine for you to look in multiple directions on Day 1 (good even!). Like, it's fine for you to reconsider your reads (good even!). It's fine for you to admit you're wrong (good even!).

But it's really weird that you:

- Just happened to join my wagon as it appeared to be gaining
- Just happened to leave my wagon when it had lost all momentum
- Just happened to leave my wagon after people expressed concern about your reasons for jumping on

That's a lot of coincidence for me to stomach. Add on the lack of rationale and general opaqueness, and it doesn't sit well with me.

Also, just noting for future me:

Spoiler: not useful yet

If Pers is scum, Kuroi is scum. Not going to argue this or explain it since I hate relationals pre-flip, but I also probably wouldn't remember the tell I saw if it weren't in my ISO after I go away for a week.

[Rob14]

You don't think I've been aggressive so far? Wow.

[Rob14]

I didn't have time to look as in depth into ISOs as I may have liked prior to my V/LA, but I did look a bit. Here's a reads list and some of what I saw in the ISOs I skimmed.

Strong Town:
Adaptive Heap
Plottin Kittehs

Weak Town:
Aristophanes
Soren (most recent post was good, especially given what I know of Soren’s meta)
Frozen Angel
BROseidon (would like to see more from BRO, but gut says town, as does #119)

Null:
Not_Mafia (badly needs a prod)
FA_Q2 (if I absolutely had to categorize, it would be very slightly lean scum; conflicted because I hate his “garbage” post and his early lack of content, but I just don’t see scum playing this way)
Shiro (haven’t seen much from this slot yet and what’s been said has been very null)

Weak Scum:
Kuroi (evidently does have experience due to the experience requirement. very superficial participation, no pressure. no vote even. skating by)

Strong Scum:
Persivul
Davsto

[Rob14]

Davsto's trying to appear helpful? I must have missed the memo on that one. He's just blatantly doing nothing.

[Rob14]

Davsto, list three things you've done. Three actual scum-hunting things.

[Rob14]

Goddamn it I'm very often slow D1 and can take a while to catch onto things, give me a fucking break.

Read this
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=26159

That's my ISO in Prozac's Basic Theme where, would you believe it, I was town. Skim it. You will see that I can be slow D1, and hopefully reconsider your vote.

Also, show me how I'm "trying too hard to be helpful", because right now both the people scumreading me literally have opposite reasons and that just smells like bullshit.

In that game, you were asking serious questions by #61. You look like you were trying and failing to get engaged in the early game. Admitting you've got nothing isn't honestly that bad, but here, you've insisted that you've scum-hunted when I don't believe you've contributed anything.

Also, please don't start with the blatantly false "you've done no scumhunting" stuff because I literally just got out of a game where it happened to a ridiculous extent despite me clearly having scumhunted. Like, you can't accuse me of not scumhunting while I have posts like this

The game is five pages in, the hell do you expect me to do, have a read on literally everyone? I'm like Regigigas; I can have quite a slow start to games very often.

The capitals/non-capitals thing just isn't explicit enough. We need a way to refer to Doctor/doctor in a way such as we know exactly which is being referred to. You saw the confusion earlier, why act like that's not something that should be avoided in even the most obtuse way possible?

Rob basically just came in and repeated everything Bro has already said ("Dav ain't done much" (ignoring that others haven't done much, that the game is 5 pages in so of course I'm not gonna be having reads on everyone) and "Mala is town because vagueness").

Basically,
VOTE: Rob13

@Adapted: Care to explain what you see as trying to appear helpful, please. I'm not really seeing it. Unless you mean the above post I quoted?

[Rob14]

I don't see the games as particularly similar. Early in the other game, you're questioning why someone sees you as town and acknowledging you haven't done much. In this game, you tried to make the case that you've significantly scum-hunted when you haven't, and then seem to have switched tactics to saying you never do much early Day 1. It does warrant more investigation, and I'll try to look into your meta more in the near future, but I'm fairly busy and am not sure when I'll get to it. I'm not voting for you now or advocating your lynch today, so I don't see it as particularly urgent.

I'll hopefully get to it after my V/LA.

[Rob14]

I don't see the games as particularly similar. Early in the other game, you're questioning why someone sees you as town and acknowledging you haven't done much. In this game, you

tried to make the case that you've significantly scum-hunted

when you haven't, and then seem to have switched tactics to saying you never do much early Day 1. It does warrant more investigation, and I'll try to look into your meta more in the near future, but I'm fairly busy and am not sure when I'll get to it. I'm not voting for you now or advocating your lynch today, so I don't see it as particularly urgent.

I'll hopefully get to it after my V/LA.

Uh, no.

I said I've scumhunted. I have scumhunted a bit. Sure, not loads, but no less than that game I linked. Nowhere did I say I've "significantly" scumhunted or the like. You look like you're just making up stuff in the hope people won't see the problems with it.

By "significantly", I meant "an amount that indicates town motivations rather than scum motivations" (rather than superficially asking like a single question). You argued that people shouldn't be scum-reading you due to a lack of scumhunting earlier in the game (or at least that's what I thought you argued; correct me if I misunderstood), so you did argue for significant scumhunting.

This is quibbling over words, though, and is pointless.

[Rob14]

Strong Scum:
Persivul

What do you think of my reads yesterday?

If you're town, we need to get on the same page.

First, no, we don't. I don't know your alignment, and I have no desire to "get on the same page as you" if that means adopting your reads when I think you're scum.

Second, to be frank, I still need to read through them in depth. I've had very little time.

Your post re: FA was good, though.

[Rob14]

I like Rob13 and Shiro better after today's posts.

I don't see the need for a davsto wagon at this point. There are better choices, particularly Soren and FAQ2.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Soren

My biggest problem with you is still this. I just read your "case" on Soren, and it doesn't make sense for you to go off of me and onto him given how strongly you wrote about my play being scummy earlier in the day. Maybe I missed it, but have you explained why I was "better" after the more recent posting? That might be the missing link there, idk.

[Rob14]

Weak town, but Persivul's case was not horrible. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it appears to be scum-hunting.

I did think your "you're not perfect" comment was pretty weird, but that might be a language barrier thing.

[Rob14]

So, you have no explanation for your transition whatsoever? What was with the passionate defense of the transition, then?

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

Fuck you.
Bring it on.
I'm not concerned.

Like, I'm bringing it, and you appear to have nothing...

I'm trying to understand where that transition came from. If you were scum, it would be a convenient transition. If you were town, you'd have some rationale for it. So your roadmap to "get on the same page" is to explain to me clearly what you were thinking at the time you made the transition, if that's what you want to do. That doesn't mean you have to agree with your own rationale now - if you changed your mind on my posting, that's not scummy. But I need to understand what you were thinking then, or my scumread will persist (and probably strengthen, for that matter).

[Rob14]

I've modded two games that Persivul was in, one town and one scum. I think I have a pretty good baseline on him, and this game is far closer to the completed scum game than the completed town game.

In his scum game, he did the following things:
- Argue at length, often to the point of tedium
- Generally stick to playing Mafia; very little to no commenting on other things
- Purposefully fluster town (to the point of self-lynching in the case of the completed game)

In his town game, he did the following things:
- Generally keep arguments brief and to the point
- Occasionally stray from the game for more "fun" comments
- Seemed to be much more civil, even when another player was somewhat rude to them

You can tell me which you think he looks more like this game. I think it's very clear.

[Rob14]

Soren, Persivul gave reasons why I was scum before

and

after his vote, and no reasons why I became suddenly town to him. He even explicitly notes that he can find no reasons why he'd think I'm town after looking through my play before his transition but after his vote, which he originally used as a major reason for his transition (I looked better, so he moved).

I then directly asked him for the reasons why he had originally thought I turned town, even if he now doesn't agree with them, so I can understand his motivations/thought process for the transition. This was after he reached out and wanted to "get on the same page". As soon as I ask him to explain his thought process, he retracts and decides it's no longer important to convince me he's town. This is in his #272.

Pers is now setting up a transition back onto me because he's realizing he's not going to dissuade me. I'm seriously open to reconsidering my read, as I think I've made clear by interacting with him despite my strong scum read, but he's shutting me down every time I try to get at his rationale for the switch that pinged my scumdar. I can't think of literally any town motivation for doing that.

[Rob14]

Mind fixing those quotes so I can see what your post was meant to say, Kuroi?

[Rob14]

I've modded two games that Persivul was in, one town and one scum. I think I have a pretty good baseline on him

A pretty good baseline from a sample size of 2...

Implying I've not done any more research. I skimmed other games of yours, but there's no substitute for being involved directly in games and reading every post line-by-line, which is why I mentioned it. I saw no severe breaks from the pattern.

[Rob14]

if Persi by any chance flips town your my next target.

Scum like to set up the next day's lynch.

Mind fixing those quotes so I can see what your post was meant to say, Kuroi?

I believe I'm not allowed to edit, but I'm also not used to the coding used in posts on this board quite yet. I'll answer questions as best as I can, however.

You could quote your post and fix it in a new post. There's a quote tag missing somewhere or something. I have absolutely no idea who you were quoting and where your new text is, so for now, I'm forced to ignore whatever you wrote. If you don't care to fix the quote tags, you could try repeating what you said if it was important.

[Rob14]

Two games isn't a pattern, and if you had researched other games you would have mentioned them.

I'm literally directly telling you that I looked at other games. Are you saying I'm lying? Feel free to offer up self-meta that contradicts what I've said, but from what I've seen in the games I modded and the game I've skimmed, your town and scum metas are worlds apart and can be quite obvious.

[Rob14]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

P-edit: I thought at the time that the Davsto wagon was hitting resistance because he was scum. No-one publicly said they had a town-read on Davsto iirc, so that option is highly unlikely. That wagon just kind of went caput for no reason.

[Rob14]

For that matter, you've specifically called me out for being aggressive toward you and confbiasing in this game. Then you say I match my scum meta because I'm not aggressive.

???????????

[Rob14]

Possibly lying, possibly conf biasing. You've had it in for me since your first post. I somewhat expected it because I had a perfect scum game in Blitz 1 which you modded, but I didn't expect it to go this far. Interestingly, in that game I was scum. Titus made a mistake D1, and I hounded her on it until she was lynched. In this game, I made a mistake, and you're intent on hounding me on it until I'm lynched.

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

[Rob14]

I've pointed to a specific thing I didn't like that you did. I asked you for an explanation and made it very clear that I would reconsider in light of new information if you provided one. The idea that I'm just tunneling for no reason is crazy. You've replied to me directly multiple times and basically told me to go fuck myself when I asked you to simply explain your rationale. Oh wait - you literally

did

tell me to go fuck off one time.

And you have the audacity to say I'm tunneling/confbiasing? GIVE ME A REASON NOT TO SCUMREAD YOU. It's not like I'm shutting out new information. You're just refusing to provide it.

Here's a montage of some of the times Persivul has refused to do something as simple as explain how his reads have changed over time, to me and others. How is he still alive?

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

Fuck you.
Bring it on.
I'm not concerned.

I intended to show that your 12.25 posting was better as a defense, but now that I look at it closer, it's pretty bad. Before the game I know I

wanted

you to be town so I could learn something about scum hunting, and I think that played into the post that you're pushing.

I'm trying to understand where that transition came from. If you were scum, it would be a convenient transition. If you were town, you'd have some rationale for it. So your roadmap to "get on the same page" is to explain to me clearly what you were thinking at the time you made the transition, if that's what you want to do. That doesn't mean you have to agree with your own rationale now - if you changed your mind on my posting, that's not scummy. But I need to understand what you were thinking then, or my scumread will persist (and probably strengthen, for that matter).

Reviewing that day I'm no longer interested in getting on the same page with you.

You play your way, I'll play mine. It's not uncommon to give people town reads on this site without an interrogation. You saw Rob and Broseiden do it, but for some reason you haven't followed up with them and are only pressuring me for it.

And bonus points for Persivul saying he's not avoiding scrutiny. LOL

Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else.

And I have the highest post count in the game. I'm not concerned with avoiding scrutiny. Scrutinize away. Lynch me if you like, but playing like that you'll likely end up with a knife in your back yourself.

Come on! Really, do you expect me to buy that? Under no circumstances does it make sense for a townie to refuse to explain the process by which their reads changed. Maybe if night actions had already occurred, but we're on day one here. Be realistic.

[Rob14]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

I'm not sure who you're talking to here, but...in 142 you said:

I routinely re-read old games of mine to identify differences in my town and scum meta and fix them. I find that openness is the best policy both for my town and scum games because it encourages people to read me based on motivations, not based on my meta, which I deliberately obscure.

So, you claim your meta is obscure when it suits you. But now, you say that aggressiveness is a hallmark of your scum play. This seems contradictory. Plus, you implied in 206 that you've been aggressive in this game, which you now say is scummy for you. Care to clear this up?

Aggressiveness is a hallmark of

both

sides of my play, not just my town side. I'm saying that your characterization that I'm not aggressive as scum, was not aggressive in this game, and therefore I'm scum is blatantly incorrect. I challenge you to find any game where I was passive as scum, because it just never happens. Or town, for that matter.

[Rob14]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta. It's not a lot to go on but FWIW here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

Oh, a sample size of 2.

rolls eyes

[Rob14]

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

I'm suggesting that you started with a focus on me because you've seen me be successful as scum. I did the same thing with FAQ2. A player known to be successful as scum is obviously more of a threat than one who is known to be easy to read as scum, so it makes sense to pressure those early.

BTW, did you consider my results in the two games you modded?

As town, I was lynched D1.

As scum, I didn't get higher than L-4 the entire game.

That's because as scum I'm more careful with what I say, while as town I'm not trying to hide anything and so I'm not as conscious of what I say or how my votes transition.

Persivul, here's my post about your scum team's play after my game finished:

6) The scum team was

incredibly

obvious. I'm not just saying this due to modsight. Persivul egged ETL to self-hammer and then said she should be banned for it. Ocean was incredibly opportunistic. Ranger did not scumhunt in a single post, and there were serious relational tells between him and Persivul (major coaching from Persivul, in particular). Persivul scum-read Ranger all game, but kept pushing counter-wagons whenever a wagon was starting on Ranger and

never

placed a vote on Ranger. This isn't a scum win; it's a town loss.

Tell me more about how I thought your scumplay was so good that you were the biggest threat in the game over exceptionally good players like Mastin, Mala, etc. Come now. This is just getting silly.

[Rob14]

You've now pulled out the self meta claim that when you're scum, you don't get lynched, so if people suspect you then you're town. I'm beyond done conversing with you.

You still won't explain to me anything about your rationale. You dodged my questions about it for around a dozen pages, and now you're claiming you not only had no logical basis for your vote change, but you can't even remember the reason why you

thought

it was a good idea to change at the time. I don't believe you, full stop.

[Rob14]

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on. FAQ2 as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen.

As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

It was in response to this post, specifically the bolded (my emphasis).

[Rob14]

I'm kind of tired to answer anything to people who assume my meta and try to judge me based on that. this is it. I can't take this anymore.

1 more mentioning anything about meta reading me and I will quit the game. I'm fucking here to play this fucking current game. I'm so damn sick of this amount of try for meta reading me based on wrong assumptions.

if there is anything you wanna ask me do it . if not I'm gonna take a break from mafia tonight because of another f... ongoing game.

I'm sorry, FA, but meta is a part of mafia and there's really no way to avoid it other than to use a different alt in every game. You can't expect anyone to obey your command to not use one potential method to figure out your alignment.

[Rob14]

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on.

FAQ2

as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen.

As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

It was in response to this post, specifically the bolded (my emphasis).

Yeah, maybe you should have bolded FAQ2 as well, since he's the person that your bolded obviously refers to.

Oops, reading comprehension isn't my strong suit. I thought it was referring to me and didn't bother checking the ISO numbers. Whoops.

[Rob14]

Am I being self-conscious regarding a player who is back-tracking on their past reads so they can off someone who's vocally opposing them?

Yes, unapologetically. No-one appears to be considering my case. It hasn't been a topic of conversation. If I die, I'm convinced the case dies with me, and I'm not about to let that happen.

P-edit: Haven't read the meta, and I don't have time to dig it up with a reasonable sample size, so I can't really comment. I would trust the analysis of Kittehs or Adaptive if they do have time to look into it, since both are competent and strong town for me.

[Rob14]

Davsto, as I've already explained, it's in Persivul's scum meta that he is heavily antagonistic toward town. Check Blitz 1 and his treatment of ETL.

Still reading, just wanted to post this before I forget, because the rationale behind Davsto's town-read on Pers based on our interaction is deeply flawed.

[Rob14]

Ari remains strong town in the face of a lot of people scumreading him for no reason. This whole page is like "How to Town 101" from him.

[Rob14]

^Scumreading or null reading, to clarify. Not many have actually full scum read him, I don't think.

[Rob14]

Pers and Dav can't be scum together due to a recent meta tell from Pers. I will not disclose the tell, because I expect it will continue to be useful in the future. It's a definitive tell.

just an interesting fyi

Now I'm trying to figure out who should keep my scumread. Leaning Pers. Can someone I trust (Ari/Kittehs/Adaptive) confirm whether Dav's meta of being extremely slow Day 1 is legit?

[Rob14]

Pers and Dav can't be scum together due to a recent meta tell from Pers. I will not disclose the tell, because I expect it will continue to be useful in the future. It's a definitive tell.

just an interesting fyi

Now I'm trying to figure out who should keep my scumread. Leaning Pers. Can someone I trust (Ari/Kittehs/Adaptive) confirm whether Dav's meta of being extremely slow Day 1 is legit?

I'll take Spot the Error in the Theory for $600, Alex.

This would have been a neat play if it had worked. Lynch me, then when I flip town, you have a built-in case to push davsto tomorrow. When he flips town, you merely say that you must have been wrong about the tell.

But, you didn't think it all the way through.

A person can only have a definitive tell about something they actually know. Player X can only give a definitive tell that Player Y is an opposing alignment if Player X actually knows Player Y's alignment. If Player X is town, he

can't know

Player Y's alignment. So, you should necessarily have concluded from the alleged tell that I'm scum and davsto is town. Instead, you pretend that you're not sure which of us is the scum. This is because you don't want to clear davsto, since he made a good case on you in 471.

How many lies are you going to tell to try to frame me?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

Uh ... what? I said you can't be scum together, not that one of you has to be scum. You did something that, if you were scum and Davsto was scum, you would not have done. Plain and simple. Not saying it makes either of you more scummy. I'm saying it makes it impossible for you and Davsto to be scum together.

If you're scum and Davsto is town, you may have done what you did (or may have not).
If you are town, you may have done what you did (or may have not) regardless of Dav's alignment (since you would not know it).

But you can't be scum together, because you would not have done what you did somewhat recently if you were scum with him.

This is not complicated.

[Rob14]

Like, you're claiming I'm lining up lynches, but if you flipped town, I would gain no info about alignment from this meta tell so ... ?????

[Rob14]

Pers is really invested in making me his counter wagon. He's determined to paint me as a compulsive liar, but every single thing he points out just doesn't make sense.

Ari

: Can you consolidate onto Pers if you think they're scum together? Pers would give us info on Kuroi and I'm still not 100% sold on Kuroi.

Whoever said coaching for Kuroi: Are you implying there's daytalk in this game? It's more unlikely than not; not many games have daytalk. If coaching occurred it would have to be somewhere in-thread. Maybe look for people with highly similar reads? But even that's a big stretch.

[Rob14]

Well, one of you is going to be scum in my opinion, because I previously had scum reads on *both* of you. If I now don't think you can be scum together, that removes one scum read. It shouldn't factor in to the reads of others, though. If they aren't convinced you're scum for the reasons I find you scummy, then this "tell" should not affect their reads whatsoever.

I don't know exactly what you think I'm doing. I previously had you both as scum. Say I'm scum. The reads were entirely independent. I could have lynched one of you and then the other, would have still been fine. What do I gain by saying one of you has to be town?

Explain a couple things to me:

1) How my alleged scum mastermind plan would have even helped me, were I scum.

2) What you were talking about when you said I'd have to conclude you were scum. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Rob14]

A person can only have a definitive tell about something they actually know. Player X can only give a definitive tell that Player Y is an opposing alignment if Player X actually knows Player Y's alignment. If Player X is town, he can't know Player Y's alignment. So, you should necessarily have concluded from the alleged tell that I'm scum and davsto is town. Instead, you pretend that you're not sure which of us is the scum. This is because you don't want to clear davsto, since he made a good case on you in 471.

Like this is nonsense.

The tell implies that you can't be scum together. i.e. If Pers is scum, Dav is not scum. If Dav is scum, Pers is not scum.

You say from this that I must conclude you're scum, and not Dav, but Dav being scum is just as plausible under my tell.

I can't say much more without giving away the tell, which I do not plan to do because it will remain useful in future games.

[Rob14]

I'll tell you this much, even though it's more than I should. The tell has to do with how you act toward scum as scum. It's a specific thing you do and/or don't do. You may do this as town toward someone else in the game, or not. I don't know whether you would. All I know is that based on what I saw/didn't see, you would not have acted/not acted that way toward Dav if you were scum-partners.

That's deliberately vague because I generally do not give away meta tells unless they directly result in a lynch on scum. This is about clearing someone (eventually), not lynching someone.

[Rob14]

Just an FYI. I'm going to actively try to post less walls and interact with Persi less unless someone requests me to respond to something he says. I don't think these walls have been helpful. Multiple people now have commented that it's made it more difficult for them to be engaged. After one of us (Persi/me) is lynched, we need info on other people to continue. It's not a good long-term thing to drive people out just to convince whoever's left over that Persi is scum short-term.

The reason I'm saying this is because I'm

extraordinarily bad

at not posting walls. I always say I won't or promise myself I won't and then I wind up filling up the screen multiple times. So if I start wall posting, call me on my shit, please, and remind me to cut it out.

Reading Soren's post now.

[Rob14]

I do not like Persi vote hopping so much. After he unvoted Rob he went from Ari, to FA to Dav to shiro and now to Rob again. What is he actually trying to accomplish with that. For me, it appears as thought Persi is scum trying to fake "proactive towness" and make it look like he is actually doing something in the game when he is not.

I just want to be clear on this: Are you saying the

act of vote-hopping

is scummy or the

manner in which he moves between them

is scummy? Because that's too very distinct things. If you're saying that vote-hopping in general is scummy, I do not agree. If you're saying his vote-hopping has not been supported by his reads and it doesn't look genuine, I absolutely agree (which is kind of similar to the transition thing I've been harping on for pages).

[Rob14]

I particularly liked Shiro's criticism of Persi's play, in his 447 and 449. He raises an important point that Persi is faking an attempt to pressure players. With the mention of Shiro, I have to say that he is ringing town to me. He may not have posted much, but what he has posted is informing me that he has a town mindset coming into the game, while he is not actively pushing people, he is noticing the little holes that scum were unable to cover up in their plays.

This is a good point and makes me like Shiro better. It also makes me like Soren better, because Shiro is an unlikely person to go out of your way to town-read as scum.

[Rob14]

I'm intentionally not reading the Kuroi case right now because it looks like it relies heavily on associative tells. Let's wait until the flip, m'kay?

[Rob14]

But do remind me to go back to it in the next day.

[Rob14]

I'm intentionally not reading the Kuroi case right now because it looks like it relies heavily on associative tells. Let's wait until the flip, m'kay?

I'm okay with that, one scum at a time.

It's not so much one scum at a time. I'm happy to look other ways today, even though I think Pers is the best lynch.

I'm specifically against looking at reads that heavily feature associative tells based on people who haven't flipped yet. The reason I always rail against doing that (and this is something that comes up in nearly every game I'm in) is because you have to hit a hard reset if you get a flip you don't expect. If we start discussing Kuroi from the POV of "If Pers is scum, then ...", all our discussions become worthless if Pers flips town. Then you either reset or let your previous thinking cloud your judgement. Either way is not good.

Better to note the possible associative and move on; return if your "If ..." condition is met with a flip. I haven't even looked at what it is yet; I'm not looking at or commenting on whether they may even be associated yet.

[Rob14]

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

[Rob14]

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

F

uck you.

B

ring it on.

I

'm not concerned.

Pers crumbed FBI Agent.

C

ome on!

R

eally, do you expect me to buy that?

U

nder no circumstances does it make sense for a townie to refuse to explain the process by which their reads changed.

M

aybe if night actions had already occurred, but we're on day one here.

B

e realistic.

And because it amused me, I crumbed that I knew about his crumb in response to his trying to draw my attention back to it. I was also hoping he'd stop drawing attention to it on the off chance he was town, which he did - not sure if it was because of my crumb of the crumb or not though.

[Rob14]

I do expect intent to hammer and a minimum of a 12 hour wait period before a hammer, by the way. A quick hammer is a scum claim. I would like reactions to this information.

[Rob14]

@ kuroi: No, it's not Dr Who related. I'm an FBI agent. I investigate each night for serial killer only.

(Actually the flavor name is different, but it's an FBI agent.)

This is making me reconsider. My gut over the last page is telling me I'm wrong about Pers, and my gut is more often right than not.

Which is annoying because it's basically a reset for me, but it is what it is.

UNVOTE:

I'd much rather go for a Davsto lynch, who's also been horrible, in the hopes that his lynch clears up the Pers question. I don't know what the associative tell is from mastin, but I consider my tell to be nearly 100% that they can't be scum together, unless Pers is deliberately obscuring his meta on a level that I don't think is possible. If Dav flipped scum, I'd move Pers over to town as a result.

[Rob14]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

[Rob14]

Oh wait, reading comprehension. Had I kept reading I would have seen you said that - duh.

Anyway, still, I did consider that.

[Rob14]

Is there any reason you're not voting Davsto right now Rob?

I don't quite get your mental reset mechanics considering you have a meta tell saying one is not scum if the other is, and asked which was the more likely.

I'm thinking about things and want to re-ISO Dav. That is my likely vote destination, though, yes.

[Rob14]

Davsto, as I've already explained, it's in Persivul's scum meta that he is heavily antagonistic toward town. Check Blitz 1 and his treatment of ETL.

Still reading, just wanted to post this before I forget, because the rationale behind Davsto's town-read on Pers based on our interaction is deeply flawed.

I want a response to this from Davsto.

[Rob14]

And Pers, if you're claiming you're town, what on earth would be my motivation as scum to try to kill your wagon when I could have pressed forward for a hammer?

Like, if I just jumped off and let others continue it, you could claim I was trying to get off a wagon on town, maybe (although I think that's a shit tell; no scum actually does that). I'm actively trying to kill the wagon, though. It doesn't make any sense.

Getting extremely tired of you flinging a bunch of inane shit my way. It's abrasive and annoying, and it's making me not want to be in this game. I have no problem being pushed for things that make at least a modicum of sense, but you're straight up attacking me for the sake of attacking me without even considering what you're saying. Good lord.

[Rob14]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

This reasoning is flawed. Why would an SK fakeclaim FBI Agent? Through being an SK, he'd know there's quite a risk of there being an FBI Agent in the game, and as such fakeclaiming FBI brings with it quite a decent chance of being counter-claimed.

Davsto, as I've already explained, it's in Persivul's scum meta that he is heavily antagonistic toward town. Check Blitz 1 and his treatment of ETL.

Still reading, just wanted to post this before I forget, because the rationale behind Davsto's town-read on Pers based on our interaction is deeply flawed.

I want a response to this from Davsto.

I prefer to use my own experiences with someone for meta reads than use someone else's. Meta is easy to bend to your will as the user of the meta, and the subject of the meta can purposefully manipulate their own meta. I'm perfectly fine with "X does this as town so it's not a scumtell", but not "X does this as town so he's town for doing it" or "X does this as scum so he's scum for doing this". Basically, I'll trust my own reads, thanks.

1) SK setups are wonky, and multiple FBI Agents are not unheard of, especially if the SK has a lot going in their favor for abilities. They could easily argue that. FBI Agents in general are not frequently in setups because the SK generally needs things going in their advantage. This is a point that doesn't really matter, though, because I'm no longer interested in lynching Persivul this day.

2) I'm not arguing "X does this as town so he's town". I'm arguing "X does this as town, so you can't say X is scum because he just did this". That's very different, and it's a logically bulletproof argument. If you say "Action Y ---> X is scum", and I show you an instance of "Action Y AND X is not scum", then your argument is incorrect. It's literally the negation of your argument if you go through the truth tables from a basic logic class.

[Rob14]

And Pers, if you're claiming you're town, what on earth would be my motivation as scum to try to kill your wagon when I could have pressed forward for a hammer?

Like, if I just jumped off and let others continue it, you could claim I was trying to get off a wagon on town, maybe (although I think that's a shit tell; no scum actually does that). I'm actively trying to kill the wagon, though. It doesn't make any sense.

Uh, all you've done is jump off my wagon. You haven't placed another vote. You haven't urged anyone else to leave my wagon. You are not actively trying to kill my wagon. This is another lie.

If you're referring to putting up the crumb as actively trying to kill my wagon, your motivation for that was 546, in which I noted that I had crumbed and softed my role, that you had likely seen it, and that if lynched I would reveal them in twilight. You would have looked scummy as hell when I flipped as claimed, so you needed to back off. And again, you haven't urged anyone else to unvote me.

I provided an argument for why lynching Dav first is better. That's urging people to not lynch you today.

[Rob14]

Getting extremely tired of you flinging a bunch of inane shit my way. It's abrasive and annoying, and it's making me not want to be in this game. I have no problem being pushed for things that make at least a modicum of sense, but you're straight up attacking me for the sake of attacking me without even considering what you're saying. Good lord.

And now AtE.

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

[Rob14]

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

So I'm curious, you knew about the FBI crumb Persi made but still got into a wall fight with him page after page?

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

Though this is pretty town, you could have just not mentioned his crumb if you were scum. Though I would only argue that this applies if you're the SK. So meaning, at the very least, you're not the SK.

Spoiler:

does your role pm give any hints as to what an SK might look like / what form they might take that you could share with us in paraphrased form? alternatively, what's your take on the earlier "maybe we're all doctors / maybe some of us aren't doctors" discussion?

Also the flavor speculation seems pointless to me. Do we have any reason to think that it's more than dressing to fairly standard roles? I don't see any indication of that in my role pm.

The wiki says that FBI Agent is a very rare role. I had to look it up to see what it did. How did you figure out that you were an FBI Agent?

I looked on site search and the role was used twice in 2015, not counting marathon games, and 3 times in 2014 (again not counting marathon). Why did you think you had a fairly standard role?


The wiki page hasn't been updated since 2011. Does anyone know if this part is valid in current site meta?

"As a result, games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie."

--P

FBI is pretty standard in Greatest Idea Mafia games, assuming they pick FBI as their role.

---

For now
UNVOTE: Persi
I would be down to lynch Davsto, but Rob, thoughts on Kuroi?

Yup. I already explained why the claim didn't change anything for me. I consider it unverifiable.

And I don't know on Kuroi, honestly. He apparently has games of experience, but he's playing like a newb, and it's making me question whether my initial newbtown tell actually does apply. His reads list was all gut and no substance. If a scum is in {Pers, Dav}, which I think there is, then it was a very convenient read list for Kuroi to have at the time. I think a Dav lynch helps sort out Kuroi as well.

So basically,

VOTE: Davsto

[Rob14]

if you go through the truth tables from a basic logic class.

Off topic question because I am always interested in people who practices/demonstrates the use logic. Have you taken logic classes before?

One of my majors is pure math, so I've taken classes that involve the use of logic, yes.

[Rob14]

Soren, just want to prove a point to Pers for a second, because I'm getting furious at him lying about me lying (because honestly, that's what it's come down to):

Did you unvote in direct response to what I posted, both his crumb and the rationale for why Dav is better?

P-edit: Dav, I mistyped a bit I think. Basically flip all the uses of town and scum. I got into so much X and Y and town and scum that I flipped the two by accident.

I'm saying you said he was town because of action Y. I showed you an instance of him doing action Y as scum. Ergo, he can NOT be town because of action Y.

He can still be town, but not because of action Y. Basically, I'm saying your read is utter and complete trash. You should take the meta evidence that I provided directly contradicting it and reconsider. If you come up with Town!Pers, that's fine, whatever, but you need a reason that isn't directly contradicted by meta evidence.

[Rob14]

@Mod - Replace me.

Parting thoughts:

- Persivul, after this game, take a moment and reflect that your deliberately antagonistic playstyle and personality are literally driving people from your games. I've replaced out from this one. ETL nearly replaced out from my Blitz 1 over your behavior, and I wouldn't have blamed her. She did self-hammer to get away from it.

- You literally told someone who was seeking mental health assistance for an unspecified issue to leave the site. That borders just outside of what I would consider ban-worthy, but it's still an incredibly shitty thing to do.

- You'll soon find that no-one wishes to be in a game with you. I certainly don't.

[Rob14]

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

And now doubling down on AtE.

and ATE is alignment indicative?

And no, it's not. And that's kind of the fucking point. Persivul as scum (and I hope to god he is, because if he plays town like this, DEAR LORD) nitpicks every little thing whether it makes sense or not and acts like a complete and utter asshole until he drives people from the game. And no-one calls him out on it because he's so completely insufferable that they don't even want to read it or engage. And I don't blame them.

[Rob14]

@Mod - Nevermind, don't replace me yet.

Why should I be the one to leave? There's an easier solution.

VOTE: Persivul

Policy. I don't care whether he's town or scum or a fucking fairy princess at this point. My vote sits here until he's gone. Still probably scum, though.

[Rob14]

If it doesn't regain traction, I will absolutely replace out, because I'm just fucking done.

[Rob14]

For added AtE, I will also be replying to every Pers post directed at me with "Fuck you."

[Rob14]

since SKs already have enough to contend with

^ This probably better described why I think Pers could claim FBI Agent as an SK. If he knows his own abilities aren't super overpowered as the SK, then he knows there likely won't be an FBI Agent merely from a balance perspective. Like if he's a 1-shot BP SK, no mod would throw an FBI Agent into the mix. That would be crazy.

[Rob14]

But why should we deal with him today if he is a probable SK?!

1) As I made very clear earlier, I honestly don't give a rat's ass what he is at this point. I can't play with him, and so it's really him or me. He's cast all types of aspersions toward me from claiming I'm lying in every single post to claiming that I'm deliberately holding a grudge because he did well in my game (???), which would amount to a violation of site rules were it true. I'm just really, very done with him.

2) Why would you not want to lynch the SK? In all probability, the SK will just mean one more dead townie next night. As other players have mentioned, though, he could also be scum who knows it's multiball. For instance, imagine a situation where I game has two 2-person scum teams and a 9 person town. A 2-person scum team would know that there likely isn't an SK and likely isn't an FBI (2-person scum and an SK doesn't balance; 2-person scum and another scum team and an SK doesn't balance). And there's a million other scenarios as well.

In other words, I just don't think this is a claim that changes things for me at all. It's not verifiable. It's not any more unlikely than any other PR claim for scum. It's actually a fairly obscure role, so chances of it being counter-claimed are much less than, say, cop or doctor. I don't think it makes him more likely to be town or more likely to be scum.

[Rob14]

@Rob, so if I'm getting this right, you're voting him primarily because of something other than his scumminess (or lack thereof)? Because it seems like you issue is mostly because of his comments to Frozen Angel.

I'm voting him at the moment because I do not believe I can be a productive member of the town (or even remain in the game at all) while he's alive.

That does not discount the fact that I have substantial reason to believe he's scum (either mafia or SK). I've scum-read him all along. That started to change a tad, but even then, my hope was that we could lynch Dav first and see what happens. If Dav flipped scum, I would drop my scum-read on Pers because they can't be scum together (my meta tell). If Dav flipped town, I planned on re-evaluating, but probably would find my way back onto Pers' wagon because he's been all over the place this game.

I probably shouldn't say this because it hurts my chances of getting Pers lynched, but w/e, I'll just replace out if he remains tedious and no-one wants to lynch him. I've been waffling on whether what I've read as scumminess is just Pers being Pers. On the one hand, I know for a fact that Scum!Persivul likes to agitate and disorient and haven't seen him do as such in the game I modded or others I've skimmed where he's been town. On the other hand, it's possible Pers' full meta is to be antagonistic and beat townies to death with inane bullshit. idk

[Rob14]

With Pers gone, I'm back to the original plan.

VOTE: Dav

This could potentially confirm RC's slot as town if Dav flips scum. Dav is independently very scummy. RC is actually playing to what I know of his town game (but I've never seen his scum game, so take that with a massive grain of salt; could be playstyle).

[Rob14]

Ari, care to do something productive with your vote? You parked on Frozen for 500 posts from RVS, then parked on Kuroi for another 200, and now back onto Frozen. You haven't pushed any of these wagons really, and the votes without accompanying pressure or other votes are fairly useless.

I'd like to see either a comprehensive case on Frozen from you or a move to something more viable/worthwhile. Like Dav, who you've said you find scummy multiple times but never voted, despite a mounting wagon.

[Rob14]

Ari, care to do something productive with your vote? You parked on Frozen for 500 posts from RVS, then parked on Kuroi for another 200, and now back onto Frozen. You haven't pushed any of these wagons really, and the votes without accompanying pressure or other votes are fairly useless.

I'd like to see either a comprehensive case on Frozen from you or a move to something more viable/worthwhile. Like Dav, who you've said you find scummy multiple times but never voted, despite a mounting wagon.

Very high chance that I autolynch you after Frozen.

Very high chance that you're currently autolynching Frozen, given that you have supplied zero reasons at all.

[Rob14]

*facepalm*

RC, I don't know whether to like you for that or hate you for that.

[Rob14]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

This reasoning is flawed. Why would an SK fakeclaim FBI Agent? Through being an SK, he'd know there's quite a risk of there being an FBI Agent in the game, and as such fakeclaiming FBI brings with it quite a decent chance of being counter-claimed.

It would more likely be a mafia fake-claim. Given that ffery has provided explicit safe fake-claims in the past (and I would think ffery + Syr almost certainly do). Also given that the game is role madness (which I presume means practically everyone has some non-vanilla role).
So it's either a true claim which could indicate the presence of an SK, or it's a mod-provided fakeclaim for mafia.

I really doubt it's a mod-provided fakeclaim *for* the SK if one exists. This reasoning is flawed.

Question is, would mafia!Persi claim FBI?

He wouldn't, because if he guesses from setup spec that:
there isn't an SK, it would soon become apparent and he'd get fucked over.
there is an SK, he is painting a big target on his arse for a crosskill (as well as a risk of being counterclaimed).

This claim reinforces my townread on him.

This reasoning is also flawed. If Persivul finds himself under pressure of lynch of course he uses a mod-provided fakeclaim.
For all I know he could be x-shot BP killless scum rolecop.

I honestly don't know how you arrived at your Persivul townread Davsto.
I think I'll get a better read on the slot from RC frankly.

How do you know that scum gets mod-provided fakeclaims? You seem awfully adamant in that assertion.

This might be Dav's scummiest post yet.

[Rob14]

I give up on this game.

Dav is scum because he's:
- Done very little scum hunting.
- Constantly prioritized defending himself over scum hunting.
- Attacked exclusively the person who's pushed his wagon
- Pushed with extraordinarily weak or sketchy rationale several times. See, for example, the post I quoted as his scummiest recently.

Like, he's had plenty of time and 35 pages to start scum hunting but there's nothing there. If the best he can come up with is pushing the person who suggests the mod may give fake claims as likely scum, since obv only scum knows about fake claims ... That's someone trying to look like they're scum hunting, not someone actually doing anything. He's hiding behind a meta that I don't think is that accurate, and the little scum hunting he's done doesn't seem at all genuine.

[Rob14]

This Soren wagon is beyond bad.

RC what question?

[Rob14]

It's really hilarious how we've arrived at a site meta where anyone who claims a PR under duress is basically immune to lynch, even in games where the mod has a meta of providing fake claims.

In other news, my grandpa is in the hospital again (fluid in lungs from congestive heart failure; unrelated to the surgery he just had), and I'll be inactive while dealing with stuff related to that. I'm considering whether I should be replacing out of this game. I don't want to abandon it, but I also don't want to occupy the slot while I can't be active. And frankly, I don't know that I have the energy to argue, especially with the likes of RC et al who hop from person to person without a rhyme or reason, without any explanations whatsoever.

Like, seriously, The Pers/RC slot is def-scum, and I'm happy for my slot to be lynched if it will make people understand that. Pers was superficially scum-hunting with awful transitions at times that were convenient to him. Now RC comes in and is voting all over the place without a rhyme or reason and refusing to make a case when directly asked because he allegedly thinks he'll be an N1 NK.

Two things on RC's refusal to provide a case, by the way:

1) If you were the likely N1 NK target, that means you should be providing your case ASAP, not holding back info.

2) You're not a likely N1 NK target if you're town AT ALL. Your slot has been scum-read by a large portion of the game, and has been the subject of the most pressure out of anyone on D1. That would be like scum shooting one of their own. If you were town, you'd be a possible mislynch and not an N1 NK target. And you know that, because I know for a fact that you're not an idiot. So what are you playing at?

RC is trying to avoid giving out a case or making any commitments to any reads until D2. There's a reason for that. The slot is scum.

Starting to question whether my Pers/Dav read was actually correct, tbh, because I don't see how either slot is not scum at this point. RC is more likely based on recent behavior, so:

VOTE: RC

Since we aren't going to lynch Dav anyway, because town is full of a bunch of morons.

There's no case on Soren at all, and the fact that a huge number of players flocked to that wagon without any explanation means it was scum-run. Sheeping only goes so far, and it doesn't explain why the Dav wagon was deconstructed so quickly. When I'm inevitably lynched, look at the Soren wagon that sprung up. I guarantee at least two scum are on it.

[Rob14]

Soren, the FBI thing has been explained EXHAUSTIVELY.

- SKs can easily claim FBI Agent as a plausible claim that they can pretty much know won't be in the game based on their own power (an SK without extraordinary power does not balance with an FBI Agent)
- Mafia can easily claim FBI Agent and suggest a kill was roleblocked/doc protected/jailkept/etc for a night.
- FBI Agents are often in setups without SKs at all, so the lack of kill over many nights doesn't even contradict the claim.
- The mod has a meta of providing fake claims.

Like ... I'm not saying the claim is scummy. I'm just saying the claim doesn't change anything for me. I think it's a profoundly dumb practice to avoid lynching someone scummy because they claimed an unverifiable and unhelpful PR. He was scum before his claim imo. He's still scum after it.

That's actually another point I've been meaning to make. Even if I'm wrong about Pers, it's not like we're throwing the game by lynching an FBI Agent. The FBI Agent has nearly zero power. It's incredibly unlikely that they provide anything of investigative use, even if an SK is in the game. It's not like it's a cop claim. I feel like most people are treating any PR claim as unlynchable, and that's not wise.

[Rob14]

Much like Pers, this is standard behaviour for RC

Provide me one example where RC continuously expects to be the N1 night kill in a situation where that is profoundly unlikely to happen, and I'll happily declare RC an idiot instead of scum.

I agree that RC's vote-hopping is meta-based. I agree that RC's lack of helpfulness is meta-based.

I do not agree that RC's specific rationale for refusing to provide a case is meta-based. I don't think the reasoning is natural, because I think RC is intelligent enough to realize they're in a situation where they would be an extremely unlikely NK just like I'm an extremely unlikely NK. If I don't think RC would be that misguided about the game state and I assume he wouldn't lie as town, then that leads me to the conclusion he's scum.

[Rob14]

And N_M, it's not like I'm not considering meta. If I wasn't well-acquainted with how useless you tend to be, I'd have been all over you 20 pages ago.

I'm still considering it, given your Soren vote. You're a decent candidate for the scum that followed onto the counter-wagon.

[Rob14]

That was overly harsh. "Useless you tend to be" should really be "useless you tend to be early in the game".

[Rob14]

I do not agree that RC's specific rationale for refusing to provide a case is meta-based. I don't think the reasoning is natural, because I think RC is intelligent enough to realize they're in a situation where they would be an extremely unlikely NK just like I'm an extremely unlikely NK. If I don't think RC would be that misguided about the game state and I assume he wouldn't lie as town, then that leads me to the conclusion he's scum.

Rob has played with me, he knows what I'm like.

He's pretending not to for tactical advantage.

This kind of insane overconfidence is typical of his scum game. Reminds me of that game with AFB where I had to claim a guilty to get anything done.

Lynch it.

I'm happy to 1v1 you if it will get people to listen to me.

I know you can come off as useless, but you do have at least a method to what you do. There is no method to thinking you're the N1 NK when you're heavily scumread. That's either arrogance that I had not previously attributed to you or an attempt to use any rationale to avoid committing to reads and such.

[Rob14]

Tone down your overconfidence and you won't be so obvious.

Either you're gloating, or the irony will be delicious in post-game.

[Rob14]

Parting thoughts:

- I'm standing by my tell that RC and Dav can't be scum together because of something that Pers did or did not do. Sorry, not being more specific than that.

- Of the two, I currently think RC is likely scum over Dav. I just don't understand his recent behavior in any context other than him being scum. I do not think he would make such an obvious lapse in judgement to think he's a likely N1 NK. Note that he hasn't attempted to explain that whatsoever since I brought it up. He's just doubled-down on a vote for me and tried to get rid of me. He was more content to let me be when I was pushing Dav, which also lends credence to the idea that they shouldn't be scum together.

- Soren bears looking at because of the recent push on me. This isn't OMGUS; it's because of the tired old reasons used. The FBI thing has been exhaustively explained by so many people. The attempt to minimize Dav's behavior from "more interested in defending himself than scumhunting" to the "hasn't scumhunted quite enough" strawman is another awful rationale. Note also the recent pattern of votes where Soren and RC go close together. They're searching for a counter-wagon together. If one flips scum, lynch the other.

- {Adaptive, Kittehs, Ari, FA} is a town bloc and should work together.

[Rob14]

I'm the Third Doctor and my role is equivalent to that of a Jailkeeper (it has a fancy name, though).

[Rob14]

^ Claiming early because I expect to be run up to L-1 and I'm not going to be around much given the family stuff going on.

[Rob14]

Lately? Leaning town (on the newish side).

[Rob14]

I can 100% say I wouldn't be willing to vote him today.

[Rob14]

My flavor name is Gallifreyan Sentinel, and there are two JKs in this setup, I'm guessing.

[Rob14]

@Rob - I need to know what this "can't be scum together" meta tell between Persivul and Davsto is. Considering you've all but blacklisted Persivul it shouldn't be a problem, otherwise please explain why it is.

Fair enough, although this will ruin the tell for future games.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=64077

Check post #16. Persivul has directly said that he does not bus as scum, at least not in any committed type of way. I consider his push on Dav to look at least somewhat committed; it's a vote that couldn't be reasonably taken back if a wagon built (and it already kind of was building). That's why I consider them as not scum together.

[Rob14]

No your not.

I counter claimed someone. Its simple vote him or vote me.

I am town jailkeeper. he is definitely lying.

Considering that a fake claim is the most absurd reaction to the current situation

Once you guys lynch me off a "counter-claim" that isn't even the same role (lol), please

don't

lynch Frozen. They seem like town in this push, even if it's 100% idiotic. Don't compound the mistake by doing two mislynches in a row.

And please do listen to what I've said about RC and Soren after I'm dead. This is probably my last post, because I just give up with you people. Maybe you'll pay attention to me after I'm dead.

If anyone has questions about reads or w/e, shoot. Bold my name, cause honestly, my eyes are glossing over when I read RC doing their scum gloating.

[Rob14]

YOU ARE HARD DEFENDING THE FUCK OUT OF ROB WHILE NOT CLAIMING A TOWNREAD ON HIM.

NO SHIT YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY SCUM.

RC, you may want to back off the commitment slightly, because you're going to look like a complete idiot once I flip. Just a word of advice.

[Rob14]

And fyi, I've won 100% of scum games since coming back, so this whole "Rob is super obvious as scum and doesn't know how to play it" is kind of lol.

[Rob14]

And my winrate was >70% before leaving iirc.

[Rob14]

You realize that in a role madness game, JK is as much negative utility as positive utility right?

[Rob14]

The way both Rob and Adaptive are acting as if it's not a counterclaim and really, really trying hard to avoid a confrontation from this by picking at what Frozen said rather than what we all know Frozen means is highly suspect.

That's because it really isn't a confrontation. Frozen means to have a confrontation, but Frozen directly said they did not have the same role as me. This is role madness. The idea that you can't have two protective roles that roleblock as will is absurd. A JK role is very weak when every town is a PR.

P-edit: Never picked at her use of like, Dav. But thanks for lying.

[Rob14]

P-edit: Never picked at her use of like, Dav. But thanks for lying.

your lying! AH attacked my claim with that word ... go back and reread

I'm not AH.

[Rob14]

@Rob and FA

Can you both go a little more in depth about your flavour please.

Also Rob if you flip town think RC and soren are scum cause that's what I am leaning.

P.edit

He mean AH not you rob

Oh, if he was talking directly to AH, which I did not get, then not lying.

I don't believe I can go more in-depth about flavor. I already said I was a Gallifreyen Sentinel and the Third Doctor.

[Rob14]

can I copy paste from my role pm?

pedit : he was talking about AH

That's a quick road to a modkill. Don't do that.

[Rob14]

I'm The Fifth Doctor, Incorrigible Dapper Abductor

I love the people of Earth perhaps a little too much. I steal 1 person from earth each night and make him/her immune to all roles that target a player, including kills. the point is I have no control over when this ability activates nor whom it targets.

plus another thing ....(which I won't claim yet)

I didn't copy pasted. I rewrote it , guess its fine.

Is that a JK or a straight-up doc protect? Not even sure based on the way you said it.

[Rob14]

the second role is sane btw.

pedit : make him/her immune to all the roles ..... Its JK isn't it ... ?!

It never says they can't use their own role; or did you not include that part?

[Rob14]

Like the flavor implies it, but it never direct says it.

[Rob14]

Well, we should all get an iron-clad Frozen town read off this, so that's something...

[Rob14]

Frozen, don't feel sad! Instead, vote RC!

[Rob14]

AH, let's have a conversation. Why Dav over RC?

[Rob14]

*facepalm*

In that situation, why wouldn't scum push Frozen as a mislynch when they know she won't flip in an incriminating way?

[Rob14]

FA, why wouldn't scum in a role madness setup consider the possibility that it's multiball or I'm an SK? Wouldn't they want to push that lynch?

I don't see AH in any way as scum in this game. That move would clearly bring pressure to them no matter what, and I can't see scum doing it. Not to mention the long history of scum-hunting in this game that people are ignoring from AH.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Aeronaut for the actions of his two predecessors.

I need to look at Shiro more closely, though. That's a weird kill unless they did something that resembled a fake crumb. Possibly chosen just as a "won't blow back on anyone" kill? I really don't know without looking.

[Rob14]

for the actions of his two predecessors.

Hi Rob.
I want to scumread you for this alone.
You get to get ISO-ed first by me tonight.

So I should reset my read every time a slot is replaced into?

Thanks, no thanks.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Aeronaut for the actions of his two predecessors.

I need to look at Shiro more closely, though. That's a weird kill unless they did something that resembled a fake crumb. Possibly chosen just as a "won't blow back on anyone" kill? I really don't know without looking.

Not even gonna give him a chance, eh?

It's on him to convince me to change my read, not on me to change my read back to null and hope his play reflects that.

If he starts playing like town, my reads could change. Just like every one of my reads in every game ever.

[Rob14]

If only that were what made you scummy. c:

Then walk me through things, because this is what I see.

Day 1 ends with a flip that gives no information because of the modkill.
Day 2 begins with a flip that I haven't looked into yet.
I place my vote exactly where it was at the end of Day 1.

If I have no new information, of course my vote is going to be in the same place. My reads won't change without new information.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Adaptive Heap

Who's likely to do a "this won't point to anyone" style kill

Is there a meta here that I'm not aware of?

[Rob14]

Rob I kinda see their point. FA had most of the support, it was obvious you were the one getting lynched. If someone was to wk for cred, they would defend you.

P.edit

I mean would an sk claim jk? It seems like a weird thing to fakeclaim

I quickly skimmed Shiro's ISO. If anyone has actual motivation to kill Shiro, it was AH. I don't see anyone else feeling threatened enough to want to kill Shiro due to their attention. And frankly, even considering AH to be threatened by the above post is stretching it.

Based on that, I think this was a "make a kill that won't blow back on us" kill. I don't see any other reason to kill Shiro. I didn't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a PR crumb in Shiro's posts (which was another possible explanation for the weird kill).

[Rob14]

Then walk me through things, because this is what I see.

Because I don't believe that you think he's scum.
We can talk about that more once I'm caught up and if I'm in the place I'm in now we can talk about your meta.
And if we get there and talk about that and I still think you're scum then I hardpush you.

You'll see in my ISO that I've extensively explained my Pers/RC/Aero read.

And could you explain how you're concluding that I've not genuinely developed a read on the slot without even reading my posts ...?

Happy to talk when you're back. I might not be around much because of an upcoming vacation though.

[Rob14]

I'm burnt out from this game, and I think your read-through will show you why very clearly.

Anyway, happy reading.

By the way:

V/LA from 1/10 to 1/16

Going to Disney World! Should still be able to post a few times, but I won't be around much at all.

[Rob14]

I kind of don't think mastin would push for a Shiro push N1 given that he's a relatively low-impact player, generally speaking.

I also need to read like 30 pages of this game or some shit, so that's completely devoid of context.

I agree with this; a newer or less experienced scum-team would probably be more likely to go with a Shiro lynch.

[Rob14]

Only scumread is noticeable imo in Shiro's ISO is that of Rob near the end, with a vote,

Damn

Vote:Rob

a very strong stance against Rob in the counter-claim incident,

@AH I am pretty sure the like a jailkeeper was pretty straightforward seeing as so far none of us had traditionaly named roles. (I think per said so as well and so did rob and now FA)

A mini with two jailkeeper that are both town Is balanced how ? This is TvS claims. SvS is far far tou riskty day 1. Like it would need pre-planning (that obv wouldn't be available) and FA reaction didn't seem pre planned.

P.edit
AH too risky for no reason. Just take the simplest option. Unlucky claim that exists. Can happen.

@FA

Relax. Getting angry won't help anything

and joining in with RC in the Rob-mocking, which seems to demonstrate a Rob-scum PoV.

Like, this was literally scum convo in pregame

rob: OMG WE'RE SO GOOD IN THE GAME IN SCUM CHAT PRO PLAYERS ALL AROUND
ah: YEA WE GONNA ROLL THIS SCRUB TOWN HARD DEFEND EACH OTHER CHAINSAW ALL GAME EZ WIN TOWN REAL DUMB WALK ALL OVER THEM

I am dying XD

(On top of this, Shiro was one of the few players that defended me in regards to my meta (the other being Ari, who never scumread Rob at all), but this is tangential)

In light of this, I'm not really a fan of Rob's posts today, particularly these following bits:

I need to look at Shiro more closely, though. That's a weird kill unless they did something that resembled a fake crumb. Possibly chosen just as a "won't blow back on anyone" kill? I really don't know without looking.

Based on that, I think this was a "make a kill that won't blow back on us" kill. I don't see any other reason to kill Shiro. I didn't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a PR crumb in Shiro's posts (which was another possible explanation for the weird kill).

This makes me feel like Rob!scum took out someone who was potentially scumreading him, but not to the extent where it looked bad to kill them (like killing me, for example), as well as someone who had shown defence of me so I'd be easier to lynch after failing to do so yesterday.

Him passing off the kill as a "oh it's a kill that won't blow back on scum" seems to be prepared to deflect people who read into the kill from scumreading him, as well as a "well i'm not scum because idk why shiro was killed right haha"

VOTE: Rob13

This is why you keep pinging my scumdar.

Every bit of what you quoted is related to a bad counter-claim. If anything, the "Damn" shows that he was town-reading me and was surprised by the CC. As soon as the CC was demonstrated to be completely incorrect, any reasonable reading of Shiro's ISO would suggest that Shiro has no scum read on me.

So why are you claiming otherwise?

You've been making awful and nonsensical pushes all game. Why?

[Rob14]

See, here's where Rob looks really aggressive to me, but like not

scummy

. Or not right now, anyway. Granted, I don't know his town game or scum game, we've never played together, but I get the impression this is just how he is.

I can definitely confirm that my playstyle tends to be aggressive, especially when I either believe I've found scum (as town) or decided to tunnel someone to match my town meta (as scum). Any decent sample from my meta would show this, if anyone cares to look, but hopefully this message saves you at least some time.

To be very clear, I'm not saying this makes me town. I'm saying it's null for me (just playstyle).

[Rob14]

There's no chance of me getting to meta someone before my V/LA officially starts, but to AH, BRO, or Kittehs: What is Dav generally like as town? Does he generally make decent cases or does he trend more toward the VI side of things?

His cases are either really forced or he's a VI. If he's not a VI, he's probably scum. I admit I'm completely unfamiliar with Davsto outside this game, though, so I can't differentiate between the two.

[Rob14]

Like, his latest attempt to fling something in my direction and see if it sticks doesn't seem genuine to me. I don't understand how someone could look at Shiro's ISO and draw that conclusion unless they went in knowing who they wanted to push. It looks like he's attempting to fit facts to a read, not a read to the facts. That's generally a hallmark of scum play.

[Rob14]

Rob can you just tell me if you and Dav are both scum.
;D

This may have been the funniest thing in this game so far.

No, we're not. Dav probably is, though.

[Rob14]

but to AH, BRO, or Kittehs

Why to those three, when they have literally no experience of playing with me outside of this game, while completely ignoring Aristophanes who has already shown to have meta knowledge of me?

Because those are the three I most trust. I would also accept Ari's opinion.

I didn't meta you, so I don't know who's played with you. *facepalm*

If I had time to go look up who's played with you through many, many threads, I'd just ISO you.

[Rob14]

Every bit of what you quoted is related to a bad counter-claim. If anything, the "Damn" shows that he was town-reading me and was surprised by the CC. As soon as the CC was demonstrated to be completely incorrect, any reasonable reading of Shiro's ISO would suggest that Shiro has no scum read on me.

Which is why she never moved her vote from you..?

Rob I kinda see their point. FA had most of the support, it was obvious you were the one getting lynched. If someone was to wk for cred, they would defend you.

P.edit

I mean would an sk claim jk? It seems like a weird thing to fakeclaim

This is the only post after FA realized she was a rolestopper. It talks about someone white-knighting me, meaning I'd have to be town. It's as clear an indication as anything that Shiro was town reading me. The day ended very quickly after the CC was revealed to be false, which is presumably why the vote was never removed.

[Rob14]

So Persi/RC/Aero is a town read for you now then Rob?

What???????????????????????

No, they're not. Davsto and Pers/RC/Aero are both independently competing to be my strongest scumread to the point I'm beginning to doubt my meta tell, especially after Adaptive's comments yesterday.

[Rob14]

Are they scum together Rob?

I've already noted the relational tell I thought was valid and I thought was against them being scum together.

Adaptive's post in the last day and their individual scumminess has me considering whether my tell was invalid.

I've seen no relational tells that specifically link them together. At least nothing that I think is exclusive to them being scum partners. I don't really look for relationals pre-flip, though.

[Rob14]

So Persi/RC/Aero is a town read for you now then Rob?

What???????????????????????

No, they're not. Davsto and Pers/RC/Aero are both independently competing to be my strongest scumread

to the point I'm beginning to doubt my meta tell, especially after Adaptive's comments yesterday.

But dav and persi cant be scum together according to you.

I bolded the part in the post you quoted specifically addressing this.

[Rob14]

Yea, I checked Cheetory to see if he was a serial killer, and the answer is no.

Why choose Cheetory?

[Rob14]

On a first read, by the way, Aero's catch-up is significantly better than his predecessors.

[Rob14]

This game feels stalled to me, and I think it's because we need a flip that actually makes a difference. We've so far had a flip on someone that had become obvious town and a flip on someone that was not notable in any way, really. Whether it's the Pers slot, Davsto, or me, the game needs an actual lynch before we can move on and start making wagon analyses, relational tells, etc.

Like, I feel like we're on the 19th calendar day of Day 1 or something.

[Rob14]

Is there a reason why you didn't do any of your read through at night before selecting your night action?

[Rob14]

Is there a reason why you didn't do any of your read through at night before selecting your night action?

Well, I also skimmed, to make sure Cheetory had't been confirmed town or anything. Who would you have checked?

Given the current game state, if I were an FBI Agent, I'd have checked you. Doesn't really matter who you checked; I'm just trying to gauge the why.

[Rob14]

So why did scum kill Shiro over Rob, who claimed jailkeeper.

For one, exactly what you just did. For two, potential doc protection. For three, jailkeeper is not that powerful in a role madness game with strong town. It will block town PRs more often than not. For four, I'm an easy lynch, probably. No reason to kill someone who they can push and get killed.

By the way, question to all players: should I be claiming my night action target? I don't see any drawback, but I've also never been in the position of a claimed roleblocker/doc before, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Davsto to consolidate. I need info, and either Aero or Dav is fine in my book.

[Rob14]

I was never asked why I asked the question, so I didn't say.

Checking the FAQ slot is weird because it was such a null slot. I wouldn't have thought anyone would investigate there. If he hadn't read the game, that explains it, although I don't really get why someone wouldn't attempt to catch up overnight if they had to make an action decision.

[Rob14]

Oh, and Aero, what were your night results, if I may ask.

Oh, was my specific role outed?

Ok, I'll check on that real quick and give my result

momentarily.

Although this surprise reads kind of genuine and scum would presumably have talked over the events of the day.

[Rob14]

Checking the FAQ slot is weird because it was such a null slot. I wouldn't have thought anyone would investigate there. If he hadn't read the game, that explains it, although I don't really get why someone wouldn't attempt to catch up overnight if they had to make an action decision.

Uh, standard investigative PR play is to investigate null slots, since the result adds the most value on average.

This is also a dumb conversation.

For an FBI Agent? There's no ability to clear there. I'd be looking at the town reads to confirm they aren't bulletproof SKs doing actual scum hunting, which is a bit hard to distinguish from town.

[Rob14]

I targeted Soren.

[Rob14]

@Soren: I meant potential for a doc to be protecting me (a claimed PR).

Hard to know. It's something I'd seriously consider in that position. Keep in mind this is role madness so a PR isn't the end-all when it comes to kills. The fact my PR is weaker than other potential targets in a role madness setup is something scum would (or should, at least) have considered in deciding whether to kill me.

Look at the end of the last day and tell me with a straight face I wasn't being pushed. Both Dav and Kuroi are still pushing me now

[Rob14]

Probably not. That's irrelevant though. The only thing relevant to whether scum kill me N1 is the amount of pressure I was under Day 1, which was considerable. I mentioned current pressure mostly to express my incredulity that Soren is claiming no-one pressured me.

[Rob14]

Chee's extremely town for his recent posting.

Lynching a claimed enabler who doesn't know which town they enable in role madness is not at all anti-town. Cut the crap. And I don't buy your claim at all after your "this is soooo anti-town" post.

[Rob14]

Check the role PM of Davsto. It says his partner, singular, is ...

That implies either a killing 3rd party or a second scum group.

Meanwhile I've jailkept Soren twice in a row and we've had no second kill. That's good enough for me. Probable SK.

VOTE: Soren

[Rob14]

This should go without saying, but a Town Roleblocker should probably claim now since that would complicate the Soren thing quite a bit.

[Rob14]

I would be very surprised if one existed with a JB, though

[Rob14]

Oh snap, you owe him a Coke, Aero.

P-edit: If I'm not mistaken, Soren may be at L-1.

[Rob14]

Alright. VOTE: Soren

BTW, Hi Plot. Your name should have been enough of a clue, lol.

This is scummy. Someone mentions they role blocked him as well (would also explain a missing kill) and then Kuroi quick hammers.

I'm satisfied with the Soren lynch since the twice-in-a-row is very strong, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that Kuroi is Dav's partner trying to avoid scrutiny.

[Rob14]

Extraordinarily well-played game, Plot. You probably deserve a scummie nom for this. I don't think a single person scum-read you the entire game.

[Rob14]

Like, this was literally scum convo in pregame

rob: OMG WE'RE SO GOOD IN THE GAME IN SCUM CHAT PRO PLAYERS ALL AROUND
ah: YEA WE GONNA ROLL THIS SCRUB TOWN HARD DEFEND EACH OTHER CHAINSAW ALL GAME EZ WIN TOWN REAL DUMB WALK ALL OVER THEM

I meant to throw this here in the post-game.