Mini 1803: Hunger Games Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Froot Loop]

I think you are neglecting some posts, picking out things and not looking very much at the overall picture.

I think this is the fault in your play today and, once again, if there's evidence of this that you can point to in my play, I can discuss them or admit that you're right. I've done this before and I've done this with other criticisms of my play.

Take your case on vedith for example. One of your main points is that he uses weak reasoning in some places and strong reasoning in others. This is quite shallow and ignores the possibility that vedith agrees with you on some scumtells but disagrees with you on others.

I don't get how these two things are related. Do you want me to point out where he uses weak reasoning and/or strong? I think I have. I don't get how this is about whether or not we agree on scumtells. His case against Bins was full of points and generalisations which are false, same in his case against me. I pointed these out. The cases were weak.

You also say he is buddying dunn, seemingly just because he scumreads the same people that dunn does. Yet vedith doesn't even have a strong townread on dunn or interact with dunn when he replaces in. I also doubt you would ignore that if you were town.

It's not necessary for me that he would have a strong town read of Dunn in order to buddy him. He wanted Dunn to think he's town. He did this by scumreading Bins. My evidence for this is his weak case against Bins, when he finally made one, after agreeing with Dunn's post without analysing it. Also, this is when he first entered the game when he was town-reading Dunn.

Literally this discussion is getting nowhere can we just stop. I'm sorry if you are town but I'm just not seeing it.

Ok, but that will definitely make me salty when the game finishes. I get that this is back and forth and it's frustrating to me as well but I'm motivated to change your mind. I guess you're not motivated because you think I'm scum. It's difficult.

I have town explanations for all my play because I'm town. That's one point. There's nothing about my play which is not explainable by looking at from a town perspective. Nothing I've done which could only be done by scum. On top of that, the picture being painted of my play as scum is either false or lazy.

You can say it was a coincidence, but you can't say it's false that you posted less content between the time your lynch seemed to be inevitable and the time peoples' votes switched to DGB.

Do you think it's symptomatic of my scum game that I disappear when I'm under no pressure? Is that how you see my play during this game? Or is it possible that that's an offhand comment relating to yesterday which has no relevance and can't be a genuine proposition about my play or reason that I could be scum.

[Froot Loop]

Anyway you fit a common pattern that scum have with their scumpartners.

What pattern is that?

[Froot Loop]

You can say it was a coincidence, but you can't say it's false that you posted less content between the time your lynch seemed to be inevitable and the time peoples' votes switched to DGB.

Do you think it's symptomatic of my scum game that I disappear when I'm under no pressure? Is that how you see my play during this game? Or is it possible that that's an offhand comment relating to yesterday which has no relevance and can't be a genuine proposition about my play or reason that I could be scum.

I've thought about it and I actually think the comment about my activity is a bit scummy.

I've seen play like this from DGB as town.

I'm not convinced this game is as easy as a Froot-DGB team. The only person I would consider lynching today other than Froot, is mollie.

(my bold)

I've just seen this comment from Xtoxm. Another reason we should wait and see what DGB can contribute to the game.

Do people think it's likely that today's gift is a kill? I don't know if it's likely that a blind gift would be a kill. Maybe because it's later in the game, it's not so unbalanced because scum would need to be townread pretty late in the game to receive it.

@Mod - will we find out what the gift is afterwards?

[Froot Loop]

Lol, whatever.

It sucks for me that Xtoxm doesn't contribute much and hasn't made any attempt to think about things. He's done one thing which makes it likely he's town but nothing to like his play in the game.

[Froot Loop]

Like, I'm asking if we're going to find out afterwards. How is that role-fishing? Who am I role-fishing? The mod?

Vedith you're seemingly ignoring that I've also stopped pushing bins though

I think Vedith's alluding to the fact that I'm town-read and so Bins feels more comfortable if I give her a null read. Maybe other players like FA as well. Vedith can clarify.

Although the easy answer would be "As Froots said"... It's not the case sadly. I didn't see your actual read changed and I assumed that your read was actually the same but you were not wanting to vote there for today.

I don't understand the sudden swap though. Is there a detailed version why?

(my bold)

THIS is role-fishing.

[Froot Loop]

@Mollie - Do you think whoever receives the gift should say what it is afterwards?

[Froot Loop]

You've posted 41 times in this game. Is that active for you?

This isn't about me, I don't know why you're making that comparison.

I am reluctantly saying that it's likely you're town. I'm also saying that there's nothing in your play which makes me trust you and definitely nothing in your play which would make think that you're a good recipient for a secret power.

[Froot Loop]

My quote tags are broken in 2653:

Vedith you're seemingly ignoring that I've also stopped pushing bins though

I think Vedith's alluding to the fact that I'm town-read and so Bins feels more comfortable if I give her a null read. Maybe other players like FA as well. Vedith can clarify.

Although the easy answer would be "As Froots said"... It's not the case sadly. I didn't see your actual read changed and I assumed that your read was actually the same but you were not wanting to vote there for today.
I don't understand the sudden swap though. Is there a detailed version why?

[Froot Loop]

I'm town. It's possible for me that DGB came in and defended me because he knows I'm going to flip town. I guess. I'd think it'd be an unlikely play for scum though and she drew a lot of attention to herself when she could have done it more quietly.

@Infinity - that's not the best reason for being town. Absolutely terrible, in fact.

[Froot Loop]

Go back to Froot. There is no chance that DGB is scum without Froot. Scum doesn't replace in with 2 days~ til deadline and draw attention away from a town lynch like that. It just doesn't happen.

No you're missing my point.

DGB, if scum without Froot, just had to tread water and let this happen for a measly 2 days. Instead she has made a lot of noise and brought a lot of attention on herself. That makes no sense in the scum!dgb, town!froot scenario. Therefore that scenario does not exist.

p-ed @ vedith

I thought it was possible that DGB was defending me for cred and that's still possible, but I think it's less likely now that she hasn't retracted her reads from earlier.

The whole sitatuion on her entrance probably looked like an easy push away from Froots expecting people to follow. I think if she backed up her opinion on people with details from the game (correct details) it could have been more believeable going by her meta.

Yeah, because you guys are totally wavering on whether or not I'm scum and the game state implies it would be easy to push you away from me. Is there anything you can see which would imply that DGB would have that interpretation? Have any of you showed any question about whether or not I'm scum which would suggest that it would be easy to push a lynch away from me?

Once again, pointless speculation which has no foundation on the game and is actually contradictory to the gamestate.

I think it's more likely that DGB is town than scum. I think it's unlikely for a scum member to come in and push away from me. It could be for credit, like I said before, but I think that's less likely or she would have played it differently.

I'm also worried about scum setting up a double mislynch here. If DGB is town, it's easy to lynch her and then move on to me. That makes me question Mollie, Infinity and Vedith because I think it'd be more challenging to go in the other direction, once I'd flipped.

Sooo, Vedith and Skybird? I'll go back and have a look at their interactions.

[Froot Loop]

What has this:

You guys seem to think that it's impossible for Infinity to be scum. I urge you to reconsider this. I may be wrong. But punishing discussion, different ideas, and most of all appeals to

PERSONAL AUTHORITY

leads to unhealthy game states that favor the scum.

Got to do with this:

then look at the whole iso. dgb replaced my slot. look at the analysis and tell me you are seeing anything like that here.

she is saying that you are scum cos you had no interaction with clumsy.

I think DGB's mentioning of whatever's happened outside the game is pretty wrong and I disagree with it. I'm sorry that this is something which has been brought up. But, I don't think it's a legitimate reason to vote for her that you don't have to deal with toxicity. It's annoying that it's a factor in the game but sometimes you have to deal with it.

[Froot Loop]

I actually like it that Xtoxm hasn't moved his vote off me. I disagree with his rationale, obviously, but I think it'd be an easy play for a scum player to move onto DGB right now. Although, bearing that in mind, DGB already has enough votes so it wouldn't be necessary.

Gifts

Gift 1 - 1-Shot Commuter - Froot won

Gift 2 - Double vote for day 2 - Xtoxm won

Gift 3 - BP - Unknown of the winner

(my bold)

I think this is a bit misleading. Xtoxm didn't win that gift and we don't know why he received it.

^ Why mollie?

I was just about to say: I don't think the team is froots and dbg.

In fact let me spice things up: What if I said froots and dbg were BOTH TOWN

skybird is mafia #1

Mafia #2 is in mollie/infinity/vedith/bins (So I'm wrong on a townread)


I think this is the actual most likely scenario.

I agree with this, kind of. I think from your second pool, one of them has to be scum. I think it's unlikely Vedith is scum with Skybird because of their interactions. I think it's possible that Vedith is scum with Mollie or Infinity.

I think Infinity's reason for moving onto DGB is the weakest and is because he wants to get something done and he's sheeping Mollie. In general, I like Infinity's play less as the day has gone on.

Bins' vote is fine and also corresponds with her not being sure on who's scum today because she isn't scumreading me. Mollie, I disagree with that move but I understand it. It has more legitimacy, in my mind, than Infinity's.

@Mod - I can't find where Vedith voted for DGB. Is it an error? I can't find him voting for Yume either.

[Froot Loop]

Mollie, I'm confused about what you're saying. I get that you think DGB is scum. I'm saying what you posted has nothing to do with DGB's most recent point about Infinity, which she took a whole post to talk about. Reducing it to "she wants to lynch Infinity because Infinity didn't talk to Clumsy" is ignoring that whole post.

@Infinity - I agree with everything you're saying. I'm saying that your move on to DGB is the weakest. Do you disagree? You've moved because you don't want conflict, you think both of us are scum, so you're sheeping Mollie. Is that incorrect?

As the day has gone on, I feel like you've been less willing to be open to other interpretations. Your posting with Mollie has deepened and this has continued on with the vote for DGB. Maybe you do want to co-operate, or maybe you're a scum player who's been able to build a relationship with a town player and are riding that until the day ends. I don't know, but that's become more likely as the day's gone on.

Lol that makes sense

If DGB flips scum froot is conf scum, we lynch her then we celebrate

Honestly, I hope you're scum.

[Froot Loop]

The fact that there's at least one town player from Mollie/Vedith/Infinity is completely bemusing to me.

[Froot Loop]

I have a scumread that no one shares on Infinity.

Your scum read is based on him and Clumsy not talknig to one another, where Infinity joined after the Clumsy lynch.
Give me other reasons to change my opinion. Other reasons in this game.

And this...really. Did you read the post? I'll quote it for you, and bullet point it for you to see clearly. Even though you've quoted from this post, it doesn't seem like you've read it.

I think there is a measure of this happening here. mollie is dipping into the well of

PERSONAL AUTHORITY

failing to consider that were I scum I would, like majiffy, know exactly how to pat her down and make her feel real comfy. I have a scumread that no one shares on Infinity. Some people are hard-core defending him like Spiffeh was hard-core defending hiplopscum in that game yesterday. He's tossing all kinds of shoot-from-the-hip statements that sound really good on the surface but leave me struggling trying to explain how his TONE is all wrong. Like that certain disregard you have for people when the game forces you to lie to them and paint them in an unfavorable light. Like that nasty kind of aggression that just shuts people down instead of considering a different viewpoint. It's effective; it makes townies lose their footing, second guess themselves, and retreat. When a player does that as town, it wins games for scum. When a player does that as scum... it wins games for scum, too.

You guys seem to think that it's impossible for Infinity to be scum. I urge you to reconsider this. I may be wrong. But punishing discussion, different ideas, and most of all appeals to

PERSONAL AUTHORITY

leads to unhealthy game states that favor the scum.

- Mollie's ignoring the fact that DGB would be able to manipulate Mollie if DGB were scum.
- People are defending Infinity.
- Superficial play from Infinity.
- DGB questions Infinity's tone.
- Infinity is ignoring people's points because everything he's saying is false.
- Infinity's being aggressive and shutting down discussion.

We can talk about whether these things are wrong or right and I'm happy to do so. But she's clearly presenting points which have occurred in this game. Your request is answered in the same post you've quoted.

Discussion:
For example, I think DGB's point about Infinity ignoring other people's viewpoints is questionable. At the beginning of the day, at least, he seemed to be more open to this. Also, confbias is an explanation which Infinity has confessed to and which town players suffer from. Similarly, Infinity is shutting down discussion but this could be because he's confbiased and just wants to see my alignment now. This is lazy but also something that town players can do (

XTOXM

.)

[Froot Loop]

I think this is a bit misleading. Xtoxm didn't win that gift and we don't know why he received it.

Well, he had the double vote. If you don't think he won it, then you're a moron, regardless to why he won it.

Did he win the vote? Or did I win the vote and then not receive the gift for some reason? Anyway, this is semantics.

No response to my post about DGB and your missing of all the reasons she thinks Infinity might be scum in her post? No response at all?

The fact that there's at least one town player from Mollie/Vedith/Infinity is completely bemusing to me.

So IYO, the remaining two scum are in Mollie/Vedith/Infinity?

Not necessarily but there's only two scum left so one of them has to be town.

[Froot Loop]

That's ok, we can just leave it hanging there that you made an error and you don't want to rectify it.

[Froot Loop]

This game has really brought it out of me :/

I completely understand what you're saying. My problem is that I don't feel like your criticisms are valid. And, also, I don't feel like we've discussed it enough. I feel like 80% of this conversation has been you saying that you don't want to have this conversation. I'm not saying that's not a valid way to feel. 100% I don't feel like you've considered my play as town. I don't think you've looked at it from a town perspective.

[Froot Loop]

I think at the beginning of the day you were asking questions and trying to figure things out. You were generally asking people about their opinions, you were talking about the gift, you said you thought it was more likely that scum couldn't receive the gift than scum having a re-direct role. I thought that was a valid point but I also received the gift on D1 so that didn't matter. You also talked about who should get the gift tonight and whether it should go to a PR or not. Ok. There were even things that pinged me that you explained, like asking about the most active players and explained why in 2024. Also, you said you were having doubts about me, which was good but also related to what I was saying in the game.

Then, you asked about people's thoughts on who my partner is, which is useless. Speculating about a player's interaction pre-flip is useless and I don't think there's a need to direct conversation in that direction before a flip. You said you voted yesterday, which I think is odd and pinged me as a possible re-direct from Skybird. To be honest, it also contributed that I feel like I've presented reasonable points and they haven't been heard. Both you and Vedith have suggested that DGB would come in as partner and WK me, which I think is unlikely because the conviction you have doesn't make that easy. I think that's an unlikely interpretation of play. And I think your vote for DGB is weak.

I think I've made it clear that I think all of this play is possible as town but I'm also seeing more possible scum-conclusions to your play.

[Froot Loop]

I read the QT with majiffy she posted about.

This is difficult. I don't think the scenario a few people have posted makes much sense, with DGB and me as scum partners. I've posted some reasons why. I also know that it isn't true, because I'm not scum. As a town player, I'm thinking about DGB's play and wondering if it's likely. Was I so close to being lynched that she thought she would be able to come in, draw attention to herself, wait for me to be lynched and then claim the credit? In that case, why would she go after Infinity? Why not Skybird, or even Bins or Dunn or anyone. Infinity is a strange choice. Unless the point Mollie (I think) made about wanting to break up the town bloc is correct.

[Froot Loop]

DGB's V/LA until tomorrow. I guess we should wait to see if she has anything to say. This day has been super long already.

[Froot Loop]

Yeah, it's the 28th already for me.

Pedit: what Dunn said.

[Froot Loop]

The only argument I have with Froots over Bins is concerning the gift.
The thought that scum can't receive gifts keeps ticking at me. Froots would have known this, so played dumb day 2 and did the self vote test.
The reason I think stronger on this is because DGB said that she had a 1 shot vote decider power.

Either -
Froots is correct, scum have a power that does that, and maybe it was given as a universal power between them to use. Froots is then town. - I can't see why they would use this power day 1.

I was thinking about that as well but it's also possible that scum knew what the gifts would be or something like that. Maybe they were given some options. The way Clumsy and Yume played implies they wouldn't have pushed against Xtoxm, even if it was an opportunity.

Froots is lying, scum do not have the power to re direct, but instead they either choose or it's randomly given to another person. Froots is then scum. - If given, why would then give it to Xtoxm instead of someone like FA who made it clear before N1 that she would vote me.

I don't understand this logic very well.

Bins voted for DGB because of troll meta. She definitely pushed her. I don't think she's scum. Also, her result either way on Infinity clears him, whether Bins is town or scum (obviously.)

I think you/Vedith are unlikelier to be scum. I have reservations about this, because of my questions about your play, but early votes for Clumsy and DGB are enough for now. Like, it's possible to me that you said "I'm bussing this game, that's it." and there are things that I pointed out that I don't think were accidental.

But anyway, I'm left with Dunn and Skybird. I've ISO'd Skybird, it's possible she's mafia, but in general I get a sense of wavering and following a little bit. There was some analysis which I thought was positive. I don't have time to ISO Dunn now.

[Froot Loop]

The way Clumsy and Yume played implies they wouldn't have pushed against Xtoxm, even if it was an opportunity.

Then why do you think xtoxm got the double vote?

I think scum had a say in it but they didn't take the chance to push it.

I think you/Vedith are unlikelier to be scum. I have reservations about this, because of my questions about your play, but early votes for Clumsy and DGB are enough for now. Like, it's possible to me that you said "I'm bussing this game, that's it." and there are things that I pointed out that I don't think were accidental.

Would you say these reservations are about equivalent to the reservations you had yesterday about xtoxm?

Yeah, exactly.

Bins not investigating me last night is a sticking point. I don't understand the logic behind that and it would have been way more useful to town to do that.

[Froot Loop]

If Bins made the decision to go for Infinity, I think it's a pretty high-risk track. Like, if Infinity were scum, fine, but a town result doesn't impact the game at all. Conversely, tracking me or Skybird would influence the game either way, with a town or scum result. Is it likely she'd make that choice? Also bearing in mind that this was her final shot. I wouldn't do it But I also think it's a personality/play style thing.

Not clearing us makes us valid lynch candidates, the pool hasn't reduced at all. That's definitely favourable to scum. Either way, Bins' decision last night with the result, was a good result for scum.

[Froot Loop]

omg I knew this was all and only about the fact that I'm scumreading

Like, you've done something pro-scum. The result that you got last night has helped scum in this game. I think that's the problem.

It's possible that you're a town player who has done something pro-scum by accident, or you took a risk and it didn't pay off.

Ok, walk me through your logic here because I don't get it.

You had vedith as strong scum and xtoxm as around null on d2, correct?

The only new information you have on vedith is his bus vote on DGB. Was it not clear at the time that she would be lynched?

And for xtoxm you had HE COUNTERCLAIMED SCUM.

But both of them ended up at "town, with reservations".

Explain??

In both situations, there were things I thought were scummy and things which could indicate a town player. I accepted throughout D3 that Xtoxm was town but highlighted why I questioned him due to play and other reasons (the gift.) But yes, his direct CC against a scum player outweighed those things.

During D3, I thought it was possible that Vedith bussed Clumsy and his questionable play, for me, outweighed that. Now he voted DGB when he could have stayed on me. I think now there's enough town-indicative things, they outweigh my questions about his play.

@Bins

- can you explain your claiming? Why did you claim when you did? Do you think your claiming changed anything in the game?

[Froot Loop]

Mollie - about the gift manipulator? I think it's an odd reason to give for thinking that. It's strange for a town player to think that, but also a scum player knows what the situation is. Also, there's a lot of variations - scum could have it as a kind of universal ability, I think someone mentioned this. Also, there is no evidence, I think, that Bins did protect Xtoxm on N2 so a role could have been used.

I do think the argument that Bins said that Dunn hadn't moved on N1 is persuasive. Could she have known that Dunn didn't move that night if she were anything other than a tracker?

[Froot Loop]

Ah, sorry, yes, English is my first language.

[Froot Loop]

Thanks for modding, UTL and Fire )

I was pretty frustrated at points in this game, but I see how it was fun in theory! hahaha.

[Froot Loop]

Thanks Dunn, you're a baller )

No worries Infinity, it just meant that I felt like I had to focus on that rather than other things but that was my reaction to it as well.

Also, my reads were garbage and I kept on defending scum and voting for counter wagons to scum so I can't really blame you!

[Froot Loop]

@Dunn - Haha, yeah, your play D1 was crazy as mafia! I didn't think you'd be jumping around like that.

[Froot Loop]

Yeah, I didn't think about the fact that Xtoxm getting to the feast meant that we'd lose a confirmed townie and the gift. Might have been better for scum to have to choose. Although my choice was Dunn, so again, no listening to me please.

[Froot Loop]

Haha, yeah. It was also possible that I wanted to talk about the double voter because I wanted to put pressure on Xtoxm that day. That didn't really come up but I thought about it and just thought about all the scummy things I'd done. But, I didn't necessarily think you were talking about them.

We might have been able to get somewhere if we had had some time after DGB's lynch. It was so part of her lynch that I was her partner that mine seemed inevitable. But after that I had fewer doubts about you guys as a bloc. I said about Vedith and you and Mollie didn't seem likely to be bussing at that point. So I thought about Skybird and Dunn. Not that much, to be fair.