Mafia 59: Hell on Earth - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

Quite an interesting set-up. It sounds like we're going to be basically relying on scum helping to lynch people in the other scum group and on scum cross-killings right from the start.

vote:al4xz

. Note this is probably the only time in the entire game I'm going to spell your name right, so enjoy it while it lasts.

[Yosarian2]

[Bold]Vote: Panzerjagger[/Bold]

You have to do it like this:

[ b ] hi [ /b]

Except without the spaces.

hi

[Yosarian2]

So why are you helping him to vote Panzer? Is it coz Panzer is scum?

I donno. He's not in my scumgroup. Is he in yours?

For the humor impared, this is a joke. Thank you for shopping at acme.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Smashy

He's jumping in the wagon!

...huh?

[Yosarian2]

*chuckles* Now I'm scum, eh? Maybe I'm just jumping to conclusion...Oh god, me thinks people will join Nightfall, and then I go to the ropes...

Again, I say...


...huh?

[Yosarian2]

That sounds weird

Unvote,Vote:Fircoal

How so?

[Yosarian2]

Why do I have to talk about newbie 298 in every game I'm in? What the hell? Dude, claims move games. That why i did that, then i got lynched before i could respond

Unneeded claims are almost bad for the town. And that's especally true this game; the only people who could claim in any useful way are the 4 pro-town roles, and there's no docs in the game except for 1 "jailkeeper" type doc (the person Riply targets is both protected and blocked), so if a pro-town power role claims, he will either be killed at night, or will be roleblocked in an attempt to protect him. Either way is bad for the town, although it's still somewhat better to claim rather then be lynched if you're a power role of course.

And like I've mentioend in other game, vanillia townies should NEVER claim, that's also bad for the town, as it helps scum find the power roles, while it dosn't help the town figure out who's scum or not as it's totally unconfirmable.

[Yosarian2]

What do you think about the newt role?

What do you mean, what do I think about it? You mean, how would I suggest that it be used?

Well, the newt has basically two good options for how to use the role. The safe way to use it would be to either have the newt not use it at all, in which case it's just a safe claim (which is still a significant benifit to the town, as it's an open role mafia and him claiming at a key time could stop him from being mislynched and give us a confirmed innocent; note the newt still shouldn't claim before it is absolutly necessary). The other way (and the one I probably would do, if I was or if I am the newt) would be for the newt try to very carefully pick people he thinks are pro-town, to stay with them, and if the newt picks right and gets lucky he might be able to claim at a key time and share the names of two or thee other people he has confirmed as pro-town, which could either prevent a mislynch or put the town in a good endgame situation, depending on when and how it happens. Either way would be a logical way to play the role.

(Note that the above post was specifically worded in such a way as to neither say I am not the newt nor say I am the newt. If anyone else wants to comment on the subject, or has any other role-related stratagy comments, I strongly suggest you carefully edit your post so that it reads the same way, in order to avoid giving the scum any hints about who might or might not be what roles.)

[Yosarian2]

I often mistake Yos2 for town just coz he makes good and long strategy based posts.

(shrug) Sure, I always do discuss stratagy; as town I often discuss stratagy it in order to help the pro-town make good moves, and as scum I try to do it as well so as to not break from my playstyle, so yeah, me discussing stratagy is probably a null tell.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not really seeing the wagon against Panzer at this point. He's being attacked because he thought that my stratagising made me look more pro-town? Why is that a scum tell? Townies often tend to think my stratigic comments make me look more pro-town, and it's not an irrational thought; in theory, anyone trying to help the town in any way is at least slightly more likely to be pro-town then not. And it seems odd that Twito is attacking Panzer for it; after all, Twito was in Reverse Mafia with me, where nearly every good guy in the game thought I was the most pro-town looking person in the game for basically that exact same reason (except M4yhem, who apparently always distrusts me ). Twito right that my posts don't prove I'm town, but it's hardly a scumtell for Panzer to think otherwise, and Twito should know that.

fos:twito

[Yosarian2]

And yes I was with you on Reverse mafia and already in there I was kinda doubting you. It's a null tell for you and someone taking you as certain protown based on it can prove dangerous.

Well, me posting stratagy may be a null tell, but my point was that, based on reverse mafia, people trusting me for me posting stratagy is also a null tell, as it was pretty common. Although I get this frustrating boomerang effect sometimes, where first everyone thinks I sound pro-town and trusts me, and then several people suddenly think I'm scum just because everyone is trusting me, which drives me crazy.

I do realize that your vote was already on Panzer, but it just seems wierd to me that you said trusting me for posting stratagy is a scum tell when you should know from prior experence that it's apparently a null tell, something town do as often as scum.

[Yosarian2]

FoS=Finger of Suspicion. Basically a way of saying you suspect someone or that you think what they just did is suspect.

[Yosarian2]

Alright, Twito I'm town and you get lynched? Works for me

Vote:PanzerJager

I've got to say, this is just useless, Panzer. If you get lynched, it dosn't really tell much about Twito, and if you're on the bandwagon it tells us less about everyone else. Voting for yourself never really helps anything.

[Yosarian2]

Good point.

Just had a quick reread and am now willing to comit myself to a vote

Vote: Panzerjager

Seems most scummy and i think his newt strategy could have been terrible on purpose.

Cheesefan, could you clarify why you voted for panzer?

[Yosarian2]

Panzer in paticular because of his bad newt stratagy which i thought he may have tryed to plant that and his backtracking on Yos to make himself look better.

I now dont like panzers "case" against Twito there.

Ok. Panzer was the one who mentioned the possibility of the newt breadcrumbing, but agreed with my stratagy suggestion instaed, right?

A. How was Newt's post scummy?

B. How did he backtrack on me? He did first say I looked pro-town, then agreed that I wasn't necessarally, but I wouldn't really call that "backtracking".

C. What don't you like about his case? A weak case this early on day 1 isn't a scumtell, although using scumlogic can be.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- You seem kinda quiet. Not holding out on us, are you?

Well, there were 3 days last week when I couldn't get home to my computer because of a combination of snow and my car deciding to die on me, stranding me at my parent's house. Other then that, no, I don't think I've been especally quiet.

[Yosarian2]

Wait a second.

Akbar, those defending are defending me because they know I'm not scum.

How would anyone "know" you're not scum? It's a day start, so the only people who know anything are the scum. In this game, you pick a random person and the odds of them being scum are pretty high.

fos:panzer

. I just don't like the tone of that last post, at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- I only have reverse to compare you with and I remember you being a lot more chatty there.

(shrug) Different stratagy for different games. In reverse, the ideal stratagy for everyone, both pro-town and scum, was to try to put yourself centerstage and look so pro-town you get revived, so that's what I did.

In this game, the stratagy is quite different. With 8 scum out of 19 players, any attack on a good guy is likely to have support from both scum groups, which means bad bandwagons can take off very quickly. For that reason, I'm going to play this game more cautiously then normal, and will probably be less bandwagony and more careful with my vote then I usually would. I still intend to be active this game, and other then that unavoidable 3 day gap last week I think I have been, but I will probably tend more towards the "caution and doubting" end of the spectrum more then the "hyperagressive and bandwagony" end of the spectrum.

[Yosarian2]

Okay then why arn't we lynching me

unvote, Vote:Panzerjager

I agree with Twito on this. If you're town, self-voting is totally useless, and just means that you're more likely to get lynched and that the town will get less information from the voting patterns. And if you're scum, the "oh, woe is me" martyr gambit is not going to work, it's been tried by scum too many times before.

Twito: Yeah, I realize that even scum don't know who's innocent, but scum are still the only people who know anything for certain right now, in that they at least know the identity of their scum partners.

[Yosarian2]

Then take note of my voters.

But if you're NOT voting yourself, and get lynched anyone, then there's one more vote to take note of. Self-voting just deprives the town of useful information.

[Yosarian2]

Gah. Let's just kill him. The dudes getting annoying...Alright, alright, I sound like scum, god damnit, I could be scum for all you know. I still think Panzer's just scum either way.

...did you just admit to being scum?

[Yosarian2]

My vote on al4xz was origionally random, but I'll keep it where it is becauce I do agree that he looks somewhat suspicious and I prefer the al4xz wagon to the panzer wagon, at least for the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Heh

...I don't think I'm in a good position to laugh anyway. Cross that Heh. I'm playing it like I wanna be lynched 'cause any of us could be scum. I'm just pointing that out when I say it. Not to many people do that, but almost everybody realizes that. Still, Panzer's still a suspect to me, but he might just be pro-town.

Unvote: Panzerjager

.

...so, if he's still a suspect, why are you unvoting him? Or to put it another way, what changed your mind?

[Yosarian2]

I don't like the way Alex posted a lot early in the game, but hasn't really posted during the last two days since the bandwagon on him started. "I'll just lurk and try not to say anything and hope the bandwagon goes away" is a common newbie scum tactic. I'm certanly not moving my vote off of him until he at least starts responding to some of this stuff.

[Yosarian2]

al4xz, you haven't actually answered this question yet.

...so, if he's still a suspect, why are you unvoting him? Or to put it another way, what changed your mind?

Why did you unvote panzer and say you thought he was suspicious in the same post?

Or, if you're saying that you think he's suspicious but not quite suspicious enough to vote, or something like that (and that's kind of silly day 1 anyway), then why did you vote for him early in the game? Did he do between your vote and your unvote that made you less suspicious of him, or what ?

[Yosarian2]

I didn't see a claim in that post

Claims are mostly bad for the town this game.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think Panzer's got enough evidence on him yet. He's still got enough, enough so that a bad move could lead to me voting him.

So, why did you vote for him in the first place?

Also, how much "evidence" do you expect to get against someone on day 1?

[Yosarian2]

I'm a Vanilla. What do you think I am? If I'm a scum, I'm not gonna start yelling I'm scum.

By the way, I realize this is a common newbie mistake, but you should never claim vanillia townie. It dosn't prove anything, it dosn't help the town figure out if you're telling the truth, and if you are town it just makes it easier for the scum to figure out who the power roles are by process of elimination.

[Yosarian2]

I tend to not make notes of page 1 and 2 stuff, because it's random voting and introductions etc unless there's a specific scum voting pattern. Sorry.

Yos: When I'm really vanilla townie, I claim vanilla townie. Generally that leads to me getting lynched if I've been scummy enough. Isn't it better that way than for me to lie? I'm referring to the lynch all liars bit.

(shrug) Basically, if I'm a vanillia townie with no flavor, I will not claim at all, in most situations. If I have a power role, I might or might not claim, depending on the situation, but it never helps to claim as vanillia, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

If you didn't claim in a game with me in it, I would push to lynch you, Yos (and I mean even more than usual). You can't let people get away with not claiming; that's makes it far too easy for the scum to hide. I always claim townie when I'm townies; at that stage, what else are you supposed to do?

It dosn't make any sense to lynch someone just because they refuse to claim if you wouldn't have lynched them if they claimed vanillia townie.

Look, let me put it this way:

Option 1: Vanillia townies claim "vanillia townie"
A. Vanillia townies claim vanillia townie
B. Scum claim vanillia townie
Result: Town gets no information from either one, as there's absolutly no way for the town to tell the difference between A and B based on the claim; scum gets information from vanillia townies claiming vanillia townie which makes it easier for them to find townie power roles at night.

Option 2:Vanillia townies don't clam
A. Vanillia townie dosn't claim
B. Scum dosn't claim.
Result: Town gets no information from either one. Scum gets no information from either one.

Conclusion: Option 1 is tactically better for the town then option 2; the town gets no useful information either way, but option 1 helps the scum and option 2 does not.

So vanillia townies, and perhaps some town power roles in some situations, should refuse to claim, and so therefore pushing to lynch someone just because they refuse to claim is not a logical pro-town move. And no, I don't agree that allowing people to refuse to claim makes it easier for the scum to hide, as there's no practical difference between a scum not claiming and a scum claiming vanillia townie.

[Yosarian2]

Wow, I missed a whole page there with that post.

Guys, stop talking about roles like that, ok? You're giving away information that we really don't want to give away with stuff like that.

[Yosarian2]

Twito, if you're a power role, and it looks like you're going to get lynched, then it's better for the town if you claim then if you get lynched; it's always best to make the scum kill the good guys at night rather then to waste the lynch on them during the day. OTOH, if you're a power role and you think you can talk your way out of lynch without claiming, delaying a claim is an option. It all depends on the situation. There will be times when the right move for a pro-town power role is to claim.

[Yosarian2]

To be fair, Alex seems to always be confusing, I don't think that's necessarally a scumtell coming from him.

That being said, I still think Alex's vote/unvote/but he's still suspicious thing about Panzer looks scummy, and he still hasn't really explained his behavior on the subject to my liking. I also don't like the way he's reminding us he might be scum, it just dosn't feel right to me the way he's WIFOMing us with that.

[Yosarian2]

fos:n9v

Don't like the logic behind that vote.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, but see then it would make me look bad if you got lynched, and you were framed. For al I know, mabey you are full of shit. But then, mabey not.

..huh?

Could you clarify why you're voting for him, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

Um...ok, but that dosn't actually answer my question. Why are you voting for him in the first place?

[Yosarian2]

Yes, I do think his few posts have been scummy, especiually his last one.

Ok. How have his posts been scummy? Can you explain what he's done, exactally, that makes you think he's more likely to be scum?

...I don't like the "twito was voting for Panzer" logic some people are referencing, as that's a complete WIFOM issue. That being said, I like a Panzer wagon better then the m4yhem wagon; I don't really see the reasoning behind that one at all at the moment, and while I don't think I have a solid read on m4hyem, so far his posting style looks like what I've seen before when he was town.

Panzer- There is no Mayham in this game. There is a me, but you can't possibly have been talking about me because no-one sane would mangle my name that badly.

Wanna bet?

[Yosarian2]

Because I have seen scum try to frame others and I'm very familiar with the process of framing. I'm suspicious of you for so elegantly pushing my wagon.

I don't like M4yhe playingm, he starts defending me then says I'm annoying. He wants me to be lynched and then the main person I argued for dies. He then jumps on my wagon day 2 and says I'm oh so scummy and that I should die. Well, isn't that a bit sketchy

Vote:M4yhem

That "he starts defending me then says I'm annoying" thing seems to be a misrepresentation of m4yhem.

Early in the game, he defended you, yes, and then he changed his mind. There's nothing scummy about changing your mind. However, he didn't change his mind because "he found you annoying", he did it because:

If you guys seriously think I am scum then lynch me, that is all.

You're not doing yourself any favours. I'm starting to feel your wagon. Twito and Akbar both seem to me to have some good points; if this is all you have to give in response, there will be a vote coming your way shortly.

Cheesefan- you didn't explain how the newt strategy was flawed. If you can't (or won't) explain this, I'll be forced to conclude that you made the whole thing up.

Twito agrees with me about Al4xz! High five! It's not the mere fact that he makes jokes; I like jokes. But Al4 hasdone nothing but make jokes and ask other people
who to vote for. What's he hiding?

Yos- I only have reverse to compare you with and I remember you being a lot more chatty there.

Panzer, I've had enough of your insanity.

unvote, Vote:Panzer

Claim or die.

That was where he apparently changed his mind about you. During this period of time, you were ignoring arguments leveled against you, you self voted, you ignored his earlier warning, and basically your actions were indeed "insane" in that you did things that a sane townie should never do. That's why he voted for you. Misrepresenting someone the way you just misrepresented M4yhem is a scum tell.

vote:panzer

[Yosarian2]

I see that. I kind of am protecting Panzer, for reasons I shouldn't tell. I'm not certain about him, though.

Ok. I don't think you're going to convince anyone without more details, though.

[Yosarian2]

Ok maybe I don't know what "bussed" means. I thought it meant went after and voted.

I was disagreeing with the suggestion that panzer and fircoal were scum together.

Bussed means "throw a scumbuddy of yours under the bus"; IE, one scum gets his scum partner lynched in order to try and look more pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

Good point.

unvote:Panzer

I'm still suspicious of him, but it's way too early to end day 2.

[Yosarian2]

...I don't really know if he did misrepresent your post, Panzer.

he says if I turn up scum he won't be lynched

Ok, so if he attacks you, and you turn up scum, he won't be lynched.

In short I believe he has insider information on who is and isn't town and has a one track mind.

So...he has insider information about you, and so he's saying that if you're scum he won't be lynched?

I don't know what you were trying to say there, Panzer, but it sure does sound bad. I don't like your Akbar vote based on him thinking that sounded bad.

[Yosarian2]

That being said, I don't really like livinggod's posts so far today, or so far this game for that matter. He's pretty much just following bandwagons, which is pretty much how I would expect scum to behave this game.

fos:livingod

. I don't think he's scum with panzer, but even if panzer does turn out to be scum that dosn't mean much this game, with two large scumgroups.

[Yosarian2]

Panzer: If you are town, then you should never give up. It dosn't help anything, and in fact most people read it is a scum-tell, just like most people consider those self-votes you made day 1 as a scum-tell.

[Yosarian2]

Um, livingod, it's an open role mafia. There are no insane or paranoid cops.

Care to respond to the post where I fos'd you?

[Yosarian2]

i gotta say im surprised at people unvoting from Panzer. His last fews posts have been as scummy as hell. My vote stands. There is nothing more to be gained from dragging the day out.

Only reason I unvoted Panzer is because I didn't want day 2 to end so quickly. He's still my best suspect for a lynch, and I could move my vote back there at some point.

[Yosarian2]

Panzer: Any last words?

[Yosarian2]

I am also quite suspicious of livinggod, actually, no matter if Panzer is scum or not. As I said before;

That being said, I don't really like livinggod's posts so far today, or so far this game for that matter. He's pretty much just following bandwagons, which is pretty much how I would expect scum to behave this game.

fos:livingod

. I don't think he's scum with panzer, but even if panzer does turn out to be scum that dosn't mean much this game, with two large scumgroups.

He basically just seems to be hiding in the background, and quitely getting on whatever bandwagon comes by, without doing much that looks pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

No, you really didn't. Looking back through your posts, you have attacked panzer 8 seperate times, but not one of those posts has anything that looks like a reason to me. The closest thing to a "reason" was where you just delcared "he's either a cop or a scum", but that makes absolutly no sense, and you never explained it.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: My reason is that I feel he's either a messed up cop or scum. He can't be a messed up cop, so I think he's scum. As for why, it's because of his notoriety. The not claiming and pushing for my lynch.

...

I don't know what you mean by "notoriety". The fact that he's not claiming is not really an argument against him, as I've already explained why vanillia townies should never claim. And the fact that he's pushing for your lynch certanly isn't an argument against him, because you look pretty darn scummy.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty happy with my livinggod suspicions from yesterday.

vote:livingod

[Yosarian2]

Seriously, people, go back and take a look at livingod's "reasons" for voting for Panzer yesterday. Go back and look at his posts all game, for that matter. If he's not scum, I'll eat my hat.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- What kind of hat is it? Is your pushing of livinggod an attempt to distract us from Bogre? What d'you think of Fircoal? Are you scum, Yos? Are you?

Is your pushing of the Bogre wagon an attempt to distract us from the livingod wagon?

Looking at Bogre's posts in general, he has been quite lurky and I don't like his hammering post, so I can understand that bandwagon. Still, livingod's posts yeterday just struck me as sooo scummy (with that whole terrible "panzer is either a cop or else he's scum" craplogic) I'd rather lynch him at the moment, I just can not imagine livingod being town at this point.

[Yosarian2]

So let's try again. This time the questions are numbered so you don't miss any:
1. Yosarian2, are you scum?

Has this question ever actually worked?

2. What's your normal strategy when you play as scum, yos?

(shrug) I donno. I don't really have a general stratagy for playing as scum; the right stratagy changes dramatically from game to game, .

3. What do you think of Fircoal, Yos?

Eh. Lurky. Yesterday he seemed to hint that he had some kind of role-based reason for not wanting to lynch panzer; he might be telling the truth or he might be scum trying to manipulate us, but I'm not really interested in pressuring him on the subject today.

So, what do you think of livingod?

[Yosarian2]

How come you aren't interested in pressuring Fircoal?

I think I just answered that:

Yesterday he seemed to hint that he had some kind of role-based reason for not wanting to lynch panzer

To be clear:

Oh, and Fircoal, that's the most wishy-washy, fence-sitting post I've ever seen, not to mention a possible protection of Panzer. you get a

Fos:Fircoal

for that.

I see that. I kind of am protecting Panzer, for reasons I shouldn't tell. I'm not certain about him, though.

Vote:Fircoal

who made an strange statement earlier and then didn't explain it.

I'm here, and I have my reasons.

I don't know quite what those vauge hints yesterday meant, although I have a few idea of what they might be. In any case, I do not want to put pressure on him today that might make him claim.

[Yosarian2]

I notice livingod is posting in several other threads every day, while not posting here at all for the last 4 days. I'm thinking he's just trying to lurk, keep his head down, and hope someone else gets lynched today.

[Yosarian2]

It's because I lost myself in this game.

...

huh?

[Yosarian2]

Again, livingod is acting exactally how I would expect a scum to act this game.

Two factors:

1. The scum have the advantage of numbers, and I would expect there to be a very strong temptation to take advantage of that by using extensive bandwagony voting stuff.

2. The biggest threats to a scum in this game is probably the other scum group and the cop that can find him, and to a lesser extent the roleblocker. So I would also expect scum to try to stay under the radar so as to try and avoid being noticed by people with night actions, which more often target high-profile people.

That's why I tend to think livingod is scum. His bandwagoning, the craplogic he used to support his bandwagoning, and his general attempts to stay under the radar all look like how I would expect a scum to want to act this game.

[Yosarian2]

I'd also like to know why you are so sure that both Bogre and Livingod are scum. That seems kinda unlikely to me. I'm guessing one of the bandwagons is on a townie- possibly livingod's, since it started second.

Actually, the suspicions against livingod started yesterday, so you can't really say the Bogre wagon was "first".

[Yosarian2]

I'd also like to know why you are so sure that both Bogre and Livingod are scum. That seems kinda unlikely to me. I'm guessing one of the bandwagons is on a townie- possibly livingod's, since it started second.

Actually, the suspicions against livingod started yesterday, so you can't really say the Bogre wagon was "first".

[Yosarian2]

At the end of the day yesterday, I actually wasn't on the panzer wagon. I did think Panzer was suspicious, though, and I was on the wagon earlier in the day.

By the end of the day, around the time of my post 534, I was starting to doubt the panzer wagon partly just because everyone else seemed to be supporting it, which in a game with this many scum is probably a bad sign, so I while I wasn't interested in defending Panzer because he did still look rather scummy, I was looking for someone else who might be a better lynch. I wasn't "waiting until tommorow" at all, I was actually in the process of trying to find if there was a better lynch then panzer right then, although the day ended before anything on livingod really got started.

And by the way, if livingod does turn out to be scum, then the way Bogre ended the day with a hammer just as people were starting to be suspicious of livingod could be scummy.

[Yosarian2]

It's possible Firecol had an investigation on Bogre; he did attack Bogre in his first post of the day, although not with any vote. Not sure, but it's possible. And Bogre still looks somewhat scummy for that bad day 1 hammer. Yeah, he's a reasonable wagon.

fos:bogre

I also don't like the way m4yhem was fishing yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Right now, I think whoever has the "Newt' role to come out. It would be betgter for him to tell us who he has looked at, becaus ethats three people we can rule out as town right there. Because as soon as he hits a mafia member, he dies.

Only the newt knows if he has enough information to be worth coming out or not at this point. He might not have any useful information; he might not have targeted anyone, or everyone he's targeted might be dead. And if the newt claims, he's dead, with 2 killing groups and no protective roles.

The newt should claim if needed to prevent a mislynch, as we REALLY need to lynch a scum today, but otherwise, meh.

[Yosarian2]

Right. And the fact that there have been 3 missing kills over the course of the game means that the jailkeeper must have stopped at least one of them. Which might be useful if we had any idea who he had targeted.

[Yosarian2]

Not really happy about the bogre bandwagon at the moment. I certanly understand the logic behind it, but it's moving way to fast, and with so many scum around that might means that both scum groups are pushing it.

[Yosarian2]

vote:m4yhem

. Day 2, he was trying to find out the role of the cop who ended up dead that night, he's pushed bad bandwagons pretty much all game, and yesterday he hammered Bogre with this terrible, terrible logic:

I am here. I think Bogre is scummy enough for a lynch and I think Yos is protecting him. So this is for science:

Vote:Bogre

Hammer!

after saying earlier in the game that

I've seen Bogre play before. He wagoned then. He was town. I hate his style, but I don't think he's actually scum.

I also notice that m4yhem has been on nearly every bad bandwagon all game, and considering the number and speed of townie wagons this game, I think the scum are bandwagoning pretty shamelessly.

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Yosarian2

I wish I had a good reason for the hammer yesterday but the fact is it was an act of pure stupidity on my part. I had a very strong gut feeling that Yos was scum protecting Bogre and I chose to follow that feeling instead of thinking through my actions logically. I was wrong.

You should know by now that I often defend people I think are town. It's something I do quite a bit.

As for my vote, I still think Yos is scum. I've seen the man play as town; he dominates every conversation. Here, he's been lying back, letting others do the work. He may not have been on every badwagon, but he is always there on the sidelines, pushing them along. Also, he was a main factor in the death of Livinggod.

"Always on the sidelines pushing them along"? Out of the 4 bandwagons we've had so far, I opposed two of them, and I was correct both times in thinking that the person being bandwagoned was pro-town.

I do not always "dominate the conversation" as town. I can easily give you any number of examples of times when I was town and was certanly not dominating the coversation.

As for livinggod, yes, I led an attack against livingod, and I was wrong. However, I was attacking livingod for reasons that seemed quite logical at the time, and that everyone else agreed with, and I was quite surprised when livingod turned out town. Compare that to the "logic" behind your vote on Panzer and Bogre. And dosn't this argument ("He led the town in attacking livingod!") totally contradict your other argument ("If Yos was town, he would be leading the town rather then sitting back!")

I now think that he protected Bogre to make himself look more town.

That dosn't make any sense either, though, as even if I was in one of the scumgroups, I wouldn't have had any way of knowing if Bogre was town or if he was in the other scumgroup. Defending a person of unknown alignment who is heading towards a lynch is quite dangerous; if Bogre had turned out to be scum, I'd probably get lynched today. Why would I take that risk as a scum?

On the subject of Fircoal- I don't think I did anything wrong. He was acting really oddly, and when people act oddly in this game you questions them. If I was scum, what would be the point of pushing on Fircoal in broad daylight? Surely I'd just suggest to my group to have him nightkilled?

(shrug) Well, perhaps you were wondering if he was a power role or not, and wanted to confirm your suspicions before using one of your kills on him. Perhaps you thought he was a power role but wanted to know WHAT power role he was; perhaps you wouldn't have wanted to kill him if he was the cop that was looking for the other scum group. There are any number of possible reason why you would want to get him to reveal his role if you were scum. I can't think of one good reason you would have wanted him to reveal his role if you were town.

[Yosarian2]

BM: I'd assume it's most likely because of this ability

From the mod's discription of all the roles in the game:

There are 4

ALIEN MAFIA

:
W, X, Y, and Z are ALIEN MAFIA. Each night one of you may attempt to kill another player. Tell me which one of you does it. Special ability: The first time one of you would be killed by BORG MAFIA, nothing happens. You do not learn whether this ability has been used.

The aliens most likely tried to kill a borg and thus failed. Or else they failed to send in a kill.

[Yosarian2]

Just noticed that that post you mention, way back on march 25'th, was the last significant post you made, Akbar, and that that was back on day 3. Did nothing that happan during the end of day 3, or all of day 4, or so far on day 5 change your mind at all? Nothing you see worth commenting on in the last 2 days?

[Yosarian2]

Just noticed that that post you mention, way back on march 25'th, was the last significant post you made, Akbar, and that that was back on day 3. Did nothing that happan during the end of day 3, or all of day 4, or so far on day 5 change your mind at all? Nothing you see worth commenting on in the last 2 days?

Do you mean other than his day 4 post on March 31st where he voted Battle Mage? That either an unfortunate miss or an interesting lie.

I meant to say the last "substantive" post; I don't really call a one-line vote post a subsnative contrabution.

[Yosarian2]

So, to condense what I said in a long drawn out way above. I'm wondering if M4yhem was the attempted kill by the Aliens last night and confirmed Borg to 3 people, Battle Mage was the attempted kill by the Borg two nights ago and confirmed Alien to them and we now have two rival scum teams trying to lynch the guy that they know to be scum.

Hmm. Interesting speculation. Not sure the scum groups would be that obveous, though.

And just to let you know, EVEN if I was scum, I wouldn't be trying to kill townies right now. THey need at least one protown player alive to win. Think before you post.

Not true. If there are no pro-town players left, the scum group with the more scum left wins. So if you're in the scum group that's ahead you might be trying to wipe out all the townies now.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos
Sure there was significance. M4yhem and BM managed to lynch another townie. Does that remove my suspicion of them? No.

My point was that you haven't actually commented on anything at all in a very long time. You made one post on day 3 laying out some FOS's, made one post on day 4 voting for someone based on that day 3 post, and are now just saying that you're going to vote for someone else based off of your day 3 post.

But anyway, if that's what you really think, then come join me and help me lynch m4yhem, he's obv scum scum.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- I went back and checked your record. You voted for three out of four of the townies that have been lynched. You got off Panzer before he was lynched but you still gave his bandwagon a really good push. As for Bogre, you may have defended him but you also fosed him and your support for him was ambigious for sure.

I not only got off Panzer before he was lynched, I activaly opposed his bandwagon towards the end of the day. And every time I voted for someone, I had logical reasons for it, unlike your scummy Bogre hammer and your scummy bandwagon votes.

Anyway, last page you were attacking me for defending bogre, saying that I was "defending a good guy in order to try to make myself look like a good guy" which makes no sense as scum don't KNOW who the good guys are. Now you're attacking me for being "ambigious" about it? I wasn't SURE Bogre was a good guy, but I thought the bandwagon was looking quite scummy and said so, and YOU used that as an excuse to hammer him.

By the way, considering how fast all those townie bandwagons moved, how much bandwagoning we've had all game from the scum, the fact that so many people are basically ignoring the m4yhem wagon dispite the obveously scummy things he's done are making me quite happy about this wagon.

Heh...you've also said in the past that you tend to be much more sure of yourself and agressive and focused as scum, and much more wishy washy and questioning when town. Looking at that bogre hammer you made, and your play in general so far this game, I'm thinking your play looks more like your scum play then your town play.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I kind of thought it made sense. I donno, sometimes cops try to breadcrumb without bringing much attention to themselves, and it was interesting that it was Fircoal's first post of the day. (shrug) It wasn't a strong theory, but not a totally inplausable one.

[Yosarian2]

So, to condense what I said in a long drawn out way above. I'm wondering if M4yhem was the attempted kill by the Aliens last night and confirmed Borg to 3 people, Battle Mage was the attempted kill by the Borg two nights ago and confirmed Alien to them and we now have two rival scum teams trying to lynch the guy that they know to be scum.

Hmm. Interesting speculation. Not sure the scum groups would be that obveous, though.

And just to let you know, EVEN if I was scum, I wouldn't be trying to kill townies right now. THey need at least one protown player alive to win. Think before you post.

Not true. If there are no pro-town players left, the scum group with the more scum left wins. So if you're in the scum group that's ahead you might be trying to wipe out all the townies now.

Read the win conditions under the second post.

Read it more carefully. The "everyone loses" clause only applies if both scum groups have the same number of people.

[Yosarian2]

BM, you have the worst case against me I have ever seen. Well, you think I'm scum when I'm clearly town, that means you must be scum. That's what your case looks like.

Wow. That is so incredibly scummy.

How are you "clearly town"? You've not posted many times all games, and most of the posts you have made have been iffy at best, such as your waffling on Panzer; first you defended him based on playstyle, then you voted him, then you unvoted him, then you voted him again, and then you went after Bogre for lynching him when you were also on that bandwagon yourself.

Just declaring that you're "clearly town" and that anyone who votes you "must be scum" just makes you look that much more scummy.

fos:n9v

. If m4yhem wasn't so obveously scum, that would be a vote.

[Yosarian2]

And how is BM clearly town?

I never said he was. There are so many scum in this game, I don't think ANYONE could be said to be "clearly town" right now. Which is why I find it so scummy that you're just declaring yourself to be "clearly town" and just assuming that anyone who doubts you must be scum. That's just horribly illogical.

Also, so, there were plenty of other people who were on the Panzer, and on Bogre, so I guess they're all scum to?

No, not all of them, but most of them probably are. Remember, there's more scum then town left at this point.

Akbar: Heh, that's quite a list, just declaring that you know not only who all the scum and all the town are, but also that you know which groups each of them is in. I don't think anyone's going to take you seriously unless you can actually explain WHY you think that, though, using specific examples.

What’s interesting is through the whole game, Yos takes pretty good notes of suspicious things, but he never seems to find fault in your actions. I wonder why.

(shrug) BM dosn't really look that scummy to me right now, compared to how he looks in other games I'm in with him right now. He could be scum, he's certanly used some iffy logic and such, but he always seems to do that, and at the moment my gut feeling is that he's not looking all that scummy.

[Yosarian2]

My logic was just as good as your logic. You’re twisting things here, gambling on people to take your word for it rather that go back and check. If my logic was so freaking scummy, how come you didn’t call me out at the time? Simple. You didn’t care if panzer and bogre died, because they weren’t your buddies. But now I make a convenient target, and so you use whatever you can.

I didn't "Call you" on your bogre vote becuase it was to late, that was the hammer.

And saying that "your logic is as good as my logic" is just completly untrue. None of my votes were anywhere NEAR as illogical as your "I'm going to hammer Bogre because Yosarian is defending him" post. And the logic behind your panzer vote was this:

Panzer, I've had enough of your insanity.

unvote, Vote:Panzer

Claim or die.

and then the next day, this.

Panzer- There is no Mayham in this game. There is a me, but you can't possibly have been talking about me because no-one sane would mangle my name that badly.

Anyway, I don't believe you were framed. Wifom, wifom, wifom.

Vote:Panzer because he was the next most suspicious after Al4xz anyway, because he jumped rather quickly to the conclusion he was framed and because oh my god, he sucks.

So I hardly think you can say you had "good logic" behind your panzer votes or behind your Bogre vote.

Whereas I have given good, logical reason for all of the votes I've made this game, except for my early random vote on alex, and when I decided to stay on that wagon I did give good reasons for that.

So please, everyone, take M4yhem up on that. "Go back and check". Go back and re-read his bogre vote, his cop fishing, and his panzer votes, and tell me if you don't think he's scum.

That’s ridiculous and you know it. We can’t know what the scum are thinking. There are other possibilities. For example, maybe they think I might be town and would prefer to kill off scum. Or maybe your buddies don’t want to associate themselves with a wagon you started.

(shrug) That wasn't the main point of my case against you; it's just an interesting observation, considering how fast all the other bandwagons this game have gone, usually with much weaker logic then the case against you.

Oh and saying I’m obviously scum doesn’t mean anything. Anyone can do that.

It wasn't supposed to be an argument against you. It was just an explination for why I wasn't voting n9v; he's scummy, but you're so obveously scum I can't see myself moving my vote off of you for anything short of a confession.

[Yosarian2]

I'm thinking currently both Yos and M4yhem are scum, their attacks on each other reek of both knowing the other's alignment, attempting to get the other lynched.

Right. I vote someone because he looks incredibly scummy, and he OMGUS votes me back, and that makes me scum? That makes a lot of sense.

[Yosarian2]

So you guys are just going to all take the claimed scum at his word? Seriously?

His claim completely falls through, on timing issues if nothing else. The kill missing last night was an alien kill, obviously, as the borg must have killed Jack the Alien. The kill missing the night before was probably an alien kill, as it was fairly obvious Firecol was Picard, so it would probably have been the Borg who killed him. But notice I only attacked M4yhem

today

, while he assumed I was scum

yesterday

in his "Bogre must be scum because yos is defending him" hammer. So even if you were to accept the idea that me and m4yhem were both scum who had identified each other through nightkills, it should be clear that M4yhem would be the borg, and I would be the alien, and therefore M4yhem would be the one who we would want to lynch today.

Now, note that that was just a hypothetical; I am not claiming scum, and I am not scum. My best guess at this point is that M4yhem is probably a borg scum stalling for time, who knowing his group is winning would rather see anyone but him lynched today; and after he foolishly OMGUS voted me and thus boxed himself into a real corner, he knows that the only chance he had of being believed (and thus buying another day for himself) would be to claim that his group had targeted me last night. I mean, I'm sure he would RATHER lynch someone in the other scum group then lynch me, but after the way he went after me earlier in the day he wouldn't be believed if he claimed a "guilty" on someone else, so he has to go after me.

I think it's pretty clear that we need to kill M4yhem now, the person who CLAIMED SCUM. We need to start lynching scum if we're to have any chance at all, we can't afford any more mistakes. Sure, he claimed to be an alien, but he would claim that no matter which scum group he was in; what motivation would a scum have to tell the town the truth at this time? And in any case, even if he was an alien, lynching an alien wouldn't be that bad; the aliens would then have to kill a borg tonight to keep the numbers even, and the town would be in a much better situation tomorrow then we are now.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, I've broken down the night kills better than that.

Night one: one of the groups targetted a person livingod protected/the groups both targetted Twito/the borg hit an alien

Night two: one of the groups targetted a person livingod protected/the groups both targetted Smashy/the borg hit an alien

Night three: the groups both targetted Fircoal/the Borg hit an Alien

Night four: the Aliens hit a Borg

To be more specific, the Aliens apparently didn't understand Fircoal's hints at all and thought that he was the Newt. They had to have targetted Fircoal night 3. It is possible that the Borg ALSO targetted Fircoal, correctly identifying him as Picard, but the aliens certainly targetted Fircoal. This is certain because there was only one kill last night, and it was an Alien. If the Aliens had missed a kill on night 3, their kill on night 4 would have worked.

All of which means that the timing is exactly right for Alien M4yhem to have just realized that you are Borg by their night kill miss last night. He wouldn't have known this yesterday, as you assert, because the Aliens didn't miss their kill Night 3. From your confusion here, I'm guessing that both the Aliens & Borg targetted Fircoal on Night 3.

Or else my confusion means that I'm a townie trying to figure it out.

Look at it this way. By your own count of nightkills, the Borg might not have missed a kill since night 2. So, as I know that he's not telling the truth, my best guess at the moment M4yhem is a borg, he missed a kill on me night 2, and he's since assumed I'm an alien; while actually the kill was stopped by Worf, either by him protecting me or by him blocking a scum. Of course, the only way he could stop from getting lynched at this point was claiming to be an alien and claiming to know that I was borg, so that's what he did; he probably even thinks I am a scum.

I'm not sure why you're assuming he's telling the truth about which scum group he's in.

[Yosarian2]

Can someone that actually runs stats show me which of these two circumstances is better, because I'm not sure.

It's also worth mentioning that if M4yhem's a scum who really thinks I'm in the other scum group, they might kill me tonight. I'd gladly soak up a nightkill if it means we'd finally get to lynch ONE scum.

If I'm still alive tommorow, and you want to go after me then based on m4yhem's claim or whatever, then go for it. But I think it's clear that m4yhem is the lynch for today.

For Yos' "M4yhem is a Borg who just THINKS that I'm an Alien" scenario to be true, the Borg would have had to have targetted an Alien on Night 1 or 2 and Yos on the other night. The Alien that they targetted couldn't have been Jack or M4yhem would know, from the fact that Jack turned out to be an Alien that Yos was probably protected. Then they would have two living players that they had been unable to target and M4yhem would have flipped a coin to determine which one he was going to gambit to get lynched. This is not impossible, but it's not likely.

It's not that unlikely. After all, we know that the borg must have been blocked at least once during night 1 and 2, either by the worf piece protecting a player or roleblocking a scum. And it's quite reasonable to think that both the doc and the scum targeted me the same night; I'm one of the more experenced/higher profile players in this game, and I tend to think I would be a logical choice for night 1 or night 2 doc protection.

[Yosarian2]

So you recognize the stats question but have no comment on it? Simple question, really, is it better for the town to lynch an Alien or a townie, by the numbers? I don't do stats.

Well, the point I was making is that you can't really judge the numbers in that kind of stasticial way when the most important question for the town really is is "will the scum nightkill each other tonight"; the normal of "town is better off with an odd number" type of statistical math dosn't really apply here at all, I don't think. I tend to think that if there's a dead alian today, and if the alians do know who one of the borg are, they would be basically forced to kill that person tonight, which would definatly be in the town's favor; wheras lynching a townie today would make it harder for the town to come back and win later even if the number of scum get whittled down.

And you've missed answering the "of the two players that M4yhem would have had to choose between, why did he decide that you were the one that was scum?"

(shrug) I donno. M4yhem always thinks I'm scum. And the fact that he made the claim pointed at me might have something to do with the fact I attacked him today.

Like I pointed out before, he seems to have been assuming I was scum with no logical reason since at least yesterday, which does not fit with the timing he's claimed.

[Yosarian2]

whilst i realise that M4yh3m MAY be lying, it seems logical to kill the most likely Borg first (Yos) whose weak defence has confirmed my suspicions.

Why would you believe that M4yhem is an alien and not a borg? Lying and claiming to be a scum of the smaller scum group is quite a common scum tactic; I won with that tactic in Jungle Republic, in fact. And M4yhem's own actions pretty clearly don't fit with his claim, at all.

[Yosarian2]

Theopor- Why would I risk my life to take down Yos if I had any doubts at all about his scumminess?

Risk your life? You were already doomed. I figured out you were scum, proved it based on your actions, and I HAD you. So you did the only thing you could do to buy some time make sure someone who's not in your scum group was killed today.

And if Yos is scum, why is he lying to you? Surely it’s obvious...Yos knows that he can’t be a more alien alien than I am, because I have access to facts he doesn’t. So, he’s trying a complete denial, relying on his skills at argument to get him through.

And if you're scum, you would by lying for the exact same reason; the only thing that could possibly prevent you from being lynched today would be an alien claim, and a claimed result on someone else as Borg.

But the fact remains, he’s lying. I know he is scum. I would only claim scum myself if I had something to gain; the death of a rival scum.

Sure you would risk yourself for someone you think to be in the other scum group, but

that dosn't prove which scum group you're in.

. At all.

You can try to make this seem like a desperate bid for survival if you like- but that’s clearly stupid. By claiming scum, no matter what type, I have assured my death at the hands of the other scum tonight.

Why would any scum waste a nightkill on someone's who's claimed scum and is thus inevetably going to be lynched? If the town dosn't lynch you today, they'll have to lynch you tommorow, that's clear. Let's do it now, find out which scum group you're from, and that will give us good information about where to go tommorow.

Town- It makes sense for you to lynch the borg and not the alien today. By keeping the numbers of scum even, you are making sure that the scum have to concentrate on each other instead of you.

Which is exactally why you would lie and claim to be an alien, even if you're a borg.

And you still haven't answered my other point. If you didn't try to kill me until last night, why were you so sure I was scum yesterday, with abosultly no reason to be? In fact, it's pretty obveous that the scum would only kill someone they thought to be scum, and pretty much no one thought I was scum yesterday, so why would your scum group want to target me last night? Dosn't make any sense. No, your scum group probably targeted me night 1, because you seem to think I'm a threat as a player, and failed, and you've just assumed I'm scum ever since.

[Yosarian2]

frankly i read your reaction to his claim, and it was WEAK. So, of the 2 of you, i chose to believe him. Dont worry, if we're wrong, im sure M4yh3m will be NKed or lynched tomorrow. there is only so long a confessed scum can last.

Again, why would you believe him? He has absolutly no reason to tell you the truth, especally when it comes to the question of which scum group he's in. He's a convincing player, and it took me a little while to figure out what exactally he was trying to pull, but that dosn't mean he's not BSing you.

[Yosarian2]

if the kill on you failed, that means you must be scum, surely?

No, your scum group probably targeted me night 1, because you seem to think I'm a threat as a player, and failed, and you've just assumed I'm scum ever since.

No; if they tried to kill me night 1 or night 2 and the kill failed, it's quite likely that Worf saved my life; as Jalyn pointed out, the Borg most likely had one of their kills stopped by Worf either night 1 or night 2.

[Yosarian2]

I did not point out that the Borg most likely missed a kill because of a livingod protection in the first two days. I suggested that it was a possibility. I now rather think that the Borg hit Alien during the first two nights and then both they and the Alien targetted Fircoal on Night three.

No, if the Borg hit aliens the first two nights, there would have been a dead alien night 2. Each scum group only gets one protection.

And what do you mean a discrepency? It's the same point. He claims he only targeted me last night, but that does not fit with his actions yesterday nor does it make a lot of sense.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, one of the first two nights, obviously.

And the descrepancy is between

In fact, it's pretty obveous that the scum would only kill someone they thought to be scum, and pretty much no one thought I was scum yesterday

and your comments about M4yhem already targetting you yesterday.

Ah. Well, M4yhem seemed to assume I was scum yesterday during his hammer of Bogre; it sounded like he was assuming I was scum for no apparent reason and therefore drew the conclusion from that that Bogre was my scum-buddy and I was defending him.

That being said, no one yesterday gave any actual reason to suspect me, and other then that wierd m4yhem post people seemed to think I was looking rather pro-town. So no, if the aliens were looking for people from the other scum group to kill, I don't believe that they would have targeted me last night.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, one of the first two nights, obviously.

If they did hit an alien one of the first two nights, that would mean that the other night they didn't, and were most likely stopped by Worf.

[Yosarian2]

Do you know something I don't Yos? Because I don't know that first two night kills weren't Borg and the Aliens didn't miss their kills.

Well, I know one thing you don't; I know M4yhem is lying, because my role PM says I'm pro-town, and so I'm trying to figure out what's going on here.

You're right, though, the aliens could have missed their first two kills, or missed one of their kills, or whatever. I tend to think M4yhem is borg because otherwise his actions don't make much sense to me, and we know that two kills were missed night 1 and 2, and that they couldn't both have been scum crosskills, although one of them might have been.

[Yosarian2]

I tend to think N9V is most likely a borg. There are only 2 aliens left, so why would an alien claim and guarentee his own death just in order to get me lynched, when frankly it looked like I was going to get lynched anyway? On the other hand, if he's a Borg (and knows I'm town from my argument with M4yhem yesterday), then his claim makes perfect sense, because the Borg know that if they get me lynched today, they win on the spot.

Also, looking at yesterday, N9V seems to have been equally happy with either lynching M4yhem or lynching me. So he's most likely a Borg.

vote:N9V

[Yosarian2]

Hell, I believe N9V was my "sure" alien if M4yhem turned up alien.

But then why would he claim today?

[Yosarian2]

duh...
so he can confirm you as scum!

That dosn't make any sense, though. I was already likely to get lynched. And yet an alien claiming today dramatically lowers the chances of the aliens losing. So again, the only logical reason for him to claim would be if he was Borg, and all he had to do in order to win was to get me lynched today; otherwise the action makes no sense.

[Yosarian2]

but you admitted yourself that M4yh3m confirmed you as Borg, therefore your whole argument is null and void

No, not at all. M4yhem claimed I was borg, but it's pretty clear that I was not the person the aliens were 100% sure was borg, because if I was they would have killed me rather then milkman last night. If they killed wrong, the borg would have won on the spot, so there's no way they would have taken that risk if they didn't KNOW that milkman was borg.

[Yosarian2]

Great game, everyone. It was a lot of fun.

[Yosarian2]

Heh. When I saw the first alien kill miss, I figured they had tried to kill me. I was assuming I was a dead man walking since day 2.

[Yosarian2]

Well, it depends on what point of the game it is, Akbar; sure, the scum want to kill a confimred innocent, but in most situations in this kind of game they're much more worried about killing each other, so they might avoid killing the townie for a while.