Mafia 59: Hell on Earth - Game over!
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Quite an interesting set-up. It sounds like we're going to be basically relying on scum helping to lynch people in the other scum group and on scum cross-killings right from the start.
vote:al4xz. Note this is probably the only time in the entire game I'm going to spell your name right, so enjoy it while it lasts.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Unneeded claims are almost bad for the town. And that's especally true this game; the only people who could claim in any useful way are the 4 pro-town roles, and there's no docs in the game except for 1 "jailkeeper" type doc (the person Riply targets is both protected and blocked), so if a pro-town power role claims, he will either be killed at night, or will be roleblocked in an attempt to protect him. Either way is bad for the town, although it's still somewhat better to claim rather then be lynched if you're a power role of course.Panzerjager wrote:Why do I have to talk about newbie 298 in every game I'm in? What the hell? Dude, claims move games. That why i did that, then i got lynched before i could respond
And like I've mentioend in other game, vanillia townies should NEVER claim, that's also bad for the town, as it helps scum find the power roles, while it dosn't help the town figure out who's scum or not as it's totally unconfirmable.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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What do you mean, what do I think about it? You mean, how would I suggest that it be used?milkman wrote: What do you think about the newt role?
Well, the newt has basically two good options for how to use the role. The safe way to use it would be to either have the newt not use it at all, in which case it's just a safe claim (which is still a significant benifit to the town, as it's an open role mafia and him claiming at a key time could stop him from being mislynched and give us a confirmed innocent; note the newt still shouldn't claim before it is absolutly necessary). The other way (and the one I probably would do, if I was or if I am the newt) would be for the newt try to very carefully pick people he thinks are pro-town, to stay with them, and if the newt picks right and gets lucky he might be able to claim at a key time and share the names of two or thee other people he has confirmed as pro-town, which could either prevent a mislynch or put the town in a good endgame situation, depending on when and how it happens. Either way would be a logical way to play the role.
(Note that the above post was specifically worded in such a way as to neither say I am not the newt nor say I am the newt. If anyone else wants to comment on the subject, or has any other role-related stratagy comments, I strongly suggest you carefully edit your post so that it reads the same way, in order to avoid giving the scum any hints about who might or might not be what roles.)I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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(shrug) Sure, I always do discuss stratagy; as town I often discuss stratagy it in order to help the pro-town make good moves, and as scum I try to do it as well so as to not break from my playstyle, so yeah, me discussing stratagy is probably a null tell.Twito wrote:I often mistake Yos2 for town just coz he makes good and long strategy based posts.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I'm not really seeing the wagon against Panzer at this point. He's being attacked because he thought that my stratagising made me look more pro-town? Why is that a scum tell? Townies often tend to think my stratigic comments make me look more pro-town, and it's not an irrational thought; in theory, anyone trying to help the town in any way is at least slightly more likely to be pro-town then not. And it seems odd that Twito is attacking Panzer for it; after all, Twito was in Reverse Mafia with me, where nearly every good guy in the game thought I was the most pro-town looking person in the game for basically that exact same reason (except M4yhem, who apparently always distrusts me ). Twito right that my posts don't prove I'm town, but it's hardly a scumtell for Panzer to think otherwise, and Twito should know that.fos:twitoI want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Well, me posting stratagy may be a null tell, but my point was that, based on reverse mafia, people trusting me for me posting stratagy is also a null tell, as it was pretty common. Although I get this frustrating boomerang effect sometimes, where first everyone thinks I sound pro-town and trusts me, and then several people suddenly think I'm scum just because everyone is trusting me, which drives me crazy.Twito wrote:And yes I was with you on Reverse mafia and already in there I was kinda doubting you. It's a null tell for you and someone taking you as certain protown based on it can prove dangerous.
I do realize that your vote was already on Panzer, but it just seems wierd to me that you said trusting me for posting stratagy is a scum tell when you should know from prior experence that it's apparently a null tell, something town do as often as scum.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I've got to say, this is just useless, Panzer. If you get lynched, it dosn't really tell much about Twito, and if you're on the bandwagon it tells us less about everyone else. Voting for yourself never really helps anything.Panzerjager wrote:Alright, Twito I'm town and you get lynched? Works for meVote:PanzerJagerI want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Good point.
Cheesefan wrote:Just had a quick reread and am now willing to comit myself to a vote
Vote: Panzerjager
Seems most scummy and i think his newt strategy could have been terrible on purpose.
Cheesefan, could you clarify why you voted for panzer?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Ok. Panzer was the one who mentioned the possibility of the newt breadcrumbing, but agreed with my stratagy suggestion instaed, right?Cheesefan wrote: Panzer in paticular because of his bad newt stratagy which i thought he may have tryed to plant that and his backtracking on Yos to make himself look better.
I now dont like panzers "case" against Twito there.
A. How was Newt's post scummy?
B. How did he backtrack on me? He did first say I looked pro-town, then agreed that I wasn't necessarally, but I wouldn't really call that "backtracking".
C. What don't you like about his case? A weak case this early on day 1 isn't a scumtell, although using scumlogic can be.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Well, there were 3 days last week when I couldn't get home to my computer because of a combination of snow and my car deciding to die on me, stranding me at my parent's house. Other then that, no, I don't think I've been especally quiet.M4yhem wrote:Yos- You seem kinda quiet. Not holding out on us, are you?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Wait a second.
How would anyone "know" you're not scum? It's a day start, so the only people who know anything are the scum. In this game, you pick a random person and the odds of them being scum are pretty high.Panzerjager wrote: Akbar, those defending are defending me because they know I'm not scum.
fos:panzer. I just don't like the tone of that last post, at all.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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(shrug) Different stratagy for different games. In reverse, the ideal stratagy for everyone, both pro-town and scum, was to try to put yourself centerstage and look so pro-town you get revived, so that's what I did.M4yhem wrote: Yos- I only have reverse to compare you with and I remember you being a lot more chatty there.
In this game, the stratagy is quite different. With 8 scum out of 19 players, any attack on a good guy is likely to have support from both scum groups, which means bad bandwagons can take off very quickly. For that reason, I'm going to play this game more cautiously then normal, and will probably be less bandwagony and more careful with my vote then I usually would. I still intend to be active this game, and other then that unavoidable 3 day gap last week I think I have been, but I will probably tend more towards the "caution and doubting" end of the spectrum more then the "hyperagressive and bandwagony" end of the spectrum.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I agree with Twito on this. If you're town, self-voting is totally useless, and just means that you're more likely to get lynched and that the town will get less information from the voting patterns. And if you're scum, the "oh, woe is me" martyr gambit is not going to work, it's been tried by scum too many times before.Panzerjager wrote:Okay then why arn't we lynching meunvote, Vote:Panzerjager
Twito: Yeah, I realize that even scum don't know who's innocent, but scum are still the only people who know anything for certain right now, in that they at least know the identity of their scum partners.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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...did you just admit to being scum?al4xz wrote:Gah. Let's just kill him. The dudes getting annoying...Alright, alright, I sound like scum, god damnit, I could be scum for all you know. I still think Panzer's just scum either way.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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...so, if he's still a suspect, why are you unvoting him? Or to put it another way, what changed your mind?al4xz wrote:Heh...I don't think I'm in a good position to laugh anyway. Cross that Heh. I'm playing it like I wanna be lynched 'cause any of us could be scum. I'm just pointing that out when I say it. Not to many people do that, but almost everybody realizes that. Still, Panzer's still a suspect to me, but he might just be pro-town.Unvote: Panzerjager.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I don't like the way Alex posted a lot early in the game, but hasn't really posted during the last two days since the bandwagon on him started. "I'll just lurk and try not to say anything and hope the bandwagon goes away" is a common newbie scum tactic. I'm certanly not moving my vote off of him until he at least starts responding to some of this stuff.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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al4xz, you haven't actually answered this question yet.
Why did you unvote panzer and say you thought he was suspicious in the same post?Yosarian2 wrote:
...so, if he's still a suspect, why are you unvoting him? Or to put it another way, what changed your mind?
Or, if you're saying that you think he's suspicious but not quite suspicious enough to vote, or something like that (and that's kind of silly day 1 anyway), then why did you vote for him early in the game? Did he do between your vote and your unvote that made you less suspicious of him, or what ?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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So, why did you vote for him in the first place?al4xz wrote: I don't think Panzer's got enough evidence on him yet. He's still got enough, enough so that a bad move could lead to me voting him.
Also, how much "evidence" do you expect to get against someone on day 1?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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By the way, I realize this is a common newbie mistake, but you should never claim vanillia townie. It dosn't prove anything, it dosn't help the town figure out if you're telling the truth, and if you are town it just makes it easier for the scum to figure out who the power roles are by process of elimination.al4xz wrote:I'm a Vanilla. What do you think I am? If I'm a scum, I'm not gonna start yelling I'm scum.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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(shrug) Basically, if I'm a vanillia townie with no flavor, I will not claim at all, in most situations. If I have a power role, I might or might not claim, depending on the situation, but it never helps to claim as vanillia, IMHO.spectrumvoid wrote:I tend to not make notes of page 1 and 2 stuff, because it's random voting and introductions etc unless there's a specific scum voting pattern. Sorry.
Yos: When I'm really vanilla townie, I claim vanilla townie. Generally that leads to me getting lynched if I've been scummy enough. Isn't it better that way than for me to lie? I'm referring to the lynch all liars bit.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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It dosn't make any sense to lynch someone just because they refuse to claim if you wouldn't have lynched them if they claimed vanillia townie.M4yhem wrote:If you didn't claim in a game with me in it, I would push to lynch you, Yos (and I mean even more than usual). You can't let people get away with not claiming; that's makes it far too easy for the scum to hide. I always claim townie when I'm townies; at that stage, what else are you supposed to do?
Look, let me put it this way:
Option 1: Vanillia townies claim "vanillia townie"
A. Vanillia townies claim vanillia townie
B. Scum claim vanillia townie
Result: Town gets no information from either one, as there's absolutly no way for the town to tell the difference between A and B based on the claim; scum gets information from vanillia townies claiming vanillia townie which makes it easier for them to find townie power roles at night.
Option 2:Vanillia townies don't clam
A. Vanillia townie dosn't claim
B. Scum dosn't claim.
Result: Town gets no information from either one. Scum gets no information from either one.
Conclusion: Option 1 is tactically better for the town then option 2; the town gets no useful information either way, but option 1 helps the scum and option 2 does not.
So vanillia townies, and perhaps some town power roles in some situations, should refuse to claim, and so therefore pushing to lynch someone just because they refuse to claim is not a logical pro-town move. And no, I don't agree that allowing people to refuse to claim makes it easier for the scum to hide, as there's no practical difference between a scum not claiming and a scum claiming vanillia townie.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Twito, if you're a power role, and it looks like you're going to get lynched, then it's better for the town if you claim then if you get lynched; it's always best to make the scum kill the good guys at night rather then to waste the lynch on them during the day. OTOH, if you're a power role and you think you can talk your way out of lynch without claiming, delaying a claim is an option. It all depends on the situation. There will be times when the right move for a pro-town power role is to claim.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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To be fair, Alex seems to always be confusing, I don't think that's necessarally a scumtell coming from him.
That being said, I still think Alex's vote/unvote/but he's still suspicious thing about Panzer looks scummy, and he still hasn't really explained his behavior on the subject to my liking. I also don't like the way he's reminding us he might be scum, it just dosn't feel right to me the way he's WIFOMing us with that.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Ok. How have his posts been scummy? Can you explain what he's done, exactally, that makes you think he's more likely to be scum?~N9V~ wrote:Yes, I do think his few posts have been scummy, especiually his last one.
...I don't like the "twito was voting for Panzer" logic some people are referencing, as that's a complete WIFOM issue. That being said, I like a Panzer wagon better then the m4yhem wagon; I don't really see the reasoning behind that one at all at the moment, and while I don't think I have a solid read on m4hyem, so far his posting style looks like what I've seen before when he was town.
Wanna bet?May-hheaam wrote: Panzer- There is no Mayham in this game. There is a me, but you can't possibly have been talking about me because no-one sane would mangle my name that badly.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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That "he starts defending me then says I'm annoying" thing seems to be a misrepresentation of m4yhem.Panzerjager wrote:Because I have seen scum try to frame others and I'm very familiar with the process of framing. I'm suspicious of you for so elegantly pushing my wagon.
I don't like M4yhe playingm, he starts defending me then says I'm annoying. He wants me to be lynched and then the main person I argued for dies. He then jumps on my wagon day 2 and says I'm oh so scummy and that I should die. Well, isn't that a bit sketchy
Vote:M4yhem
Early in the game, he defended you, yes, and then he changed his mind. There's nothing scummy about changing your mind. However, he didn't change his mind because "he found you annoying", he did it because:
M4yhem wrote:
You're not doing yourself any favours. I'm starting to feel your wagon. Twito and Akbar both seem to me to have some good points; if this is all you have to give in response, there will be a vote coming your way shortly.Panzerjager wrote:If you guys seriously think I am scum then lynch me, that is all.
Cheesefan- you didn't explain how the newt strategy was flawed. If you can't (or won't) explain this, I'll be forced to conclude that you made the whole thing up.
Twito agrees with me about Al4xz! High five! It's not the mere fact that he makes jokes; I like jokes. But Al4 hasdone nothing but make jokes and ask other people
who to vote for. What's he hiding?
Yos- I only have reverse to compare you with and I remember you being a lot more chatty there.
That was where he apparently changed his mind about you. During this period of time, you were ignoring arguments leveled against you, you self voted, you ignored his earlier warning, and basically your actions were indeed "insane" in that you did things that a sane townie should never do. That's why he voted for you. Misrepresenting someone the way you just misrepresented M4yhem is a scum tell.M4yhem wrote:Panzer, I've had enough of your insanity.
unvote, Vote:PanzerClaim or die.
vote:panzerI want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Bussed means "throw a scumbuddy of yours under the bus"; IE, one scum gets his scum partner lynched in order to try and look more pro-town.Jack wrote: Ok maybe I don't know what "bussed" means. I thought it meant went after and voted.
I was disagreeing with the suggestion that panzer and fircoal were scum together.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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...I don't really know if he did misrepresent your post, Panzer.
Ok, so if he attacks you, and you turn up scum, he won't be lynched.he says if I turn up scum he won't be lynched
So...he has insider information about you, and so he's saying that if you're scum he won't be lynched?In short I believe he has insider information on who is and isn't town and has a one track mind.
I don't know what you were trying to say there, Panzer, but it sure does sound bad. I don't like your Akbar vote based on him thinking that sounded bad.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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That being said, I don't really like livinggod's posts so far today, or so far this game for that matter. He's pretty much just following bandwagons, which is pretty much how I would expect scum to behave this game.fos:livingod. I don't think he's scum with panzer, but even if panzer does turn out to be scum that dosn't mean much this game, with two large scumgroups.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Only reason I unvoted Panzer is because I didn't want day 2 to end so quickly. He's still my best suspect for a lynch, and I could move my vote back there at some point.Battle Mage wrote:i gotta say im surprised at people unvoting from Panzer. His last fews posts have been as scummy as hell. My vote stands. There is nothing more to be gained from dragging the day out.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I am also quite suspicious of livinggod, actually, no matter if Panzer is scum or not. As I said before;
He basically just seems to be hiding in the background, and quitely getting on whatever bandwagon comes by, without doing much that looks pro-town.Yosarian2 wrote:That being said, I don't really like livinggod's posts so far today, or so far this game for that matter. He's pretty much just following bandwagons, which is pretty much how I would expect scum to behave this game.fos:livingod. I don't think he's scum with panzer, but even if panzer does turn out to be scum that dosn't mean much this game, with two large scumgroups.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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No, you really didn't. Looking back through your posts, you have attacked panzer 8 seperate times, but not one of those posts has anything that looks like a reason to me. The closest thing to a "reason" was where you just delcared "he's either a cop or a scum", but that makes absolutly no sense, and you never explained it.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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...livingod wrote: Yos: My reason is that I feel he's either a messed up cop or scum. He can't be a messed up cop, so I think he's scum. As for why, it's because of his notoriety. The not claiming and pushing for my lynch.
I don't know what you mean by "notoriety". The fact that he's not claiming is not really an argument against him, as I've already explained why vanillia townies should never claim. And the fact that he's pushing for your lynch certanly isn't an argument against him, because you look pretty darn scummy.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Is your pushing of the Bogre wagon an attempt to distract us from the livingod wagon?M4yhem wrote:Yos- What kind of hat is it? Is your pushing of livinggod an attempt to distract us from Bogre? What d'you think of Fircoal? Are you scum, Yos? Are you?
Looking at Bogre's posts in general, he has been quite lurky and I don't like his hammering post, so I can understand that bandwagon. Still, livingod's posts yeterday just struck me as sooo scummy (with that whole terrible "panzer is either a cop or else he's scum" craplogic) I'd rather lynch him at the moment, I just can not imagine livingod being town at this point.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Has this question ever actually worked?M4yhem wrote: So let's try again. This time the questions are numbered so you don't miss any:
1. Yosarian2, are you scum?
(shrug) I donno. I don't really have a general stratagy for playing as scum; the right stratagy changes dramatically from game to game, .2. What's your normal strategy when you play as scum, yos?
Eh. Lurky. Yesterday he seemed to hint that he had some kind of role-based reason for not wanting to lynch panzer; he might be telling the truth or he might be scum trying to manipulate us, but I'm not really interested in pressuring him on the subject today.3. What do you think of Fircoal, Yos?
So, what do you think of livingod?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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I think I just answered that:M4yhem wrote: How come you aren't interested in pressuring Fircoal?
To be clear:Yosarian wrote:Yesterday he seemed to hint that he had some kind of role-based reason for not wanting to lynch panzer
Fircoal wrote:
I see that. I kind of am protecting Panzer, for reasons I shouldn't tell. I'm not certain about him, though.M4yhem wrote: Oh, and Fircoal, that's the most wishy-washy, fence-sitting post I've ever seen, not to mention a possible protection of Panzer. you get aFos:Fircoalfor that.
I don't know quite what those vauge hints yesterday meant, although I have a few idea of what they might be. In any case, I do not want to put pressure on him today that might make him claim.Fircoal wrote:
I'm here, and I have my reasons.M4yhem wrote:
Vote:Fircoalwho made an strange statement earlier and then didn't explain it.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Again, livingod is acting exactally how I would expect a scum to act this game.
Two factors:
1. The scum have the advantage of numbers, and I would expect there to be a very strong temptation to take advantage of that by using extensive bandwagony voting stuff.
2. The biggest threats to a scum in this game is probably the other scum group and the cop that can find him, and to a lesser extent the roleblocker. So I would also expect scum to try to stay under the radar so as to try and avoid being noticed by people with night actions, which more often target high-profile people.
That's why I tend to think livingod is scum. His bandwagoning, the craplogic he used to support his bandwagoning, and his general attempts to stay under the radar all look like how I would expect a scum to want to act this game.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Actually, the suspicions against livingod started yesterday, so you can't really say the Bogre wagon was "first".M4yhem wrote: I'd also like to know why you are so sure that both Bogre and Livingod are scum. That seems kinda unlikely to me. I'm guessing one of the bandwagons is on a townie- possibly livingod's, since it started second.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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Actually, the suspicions against livingod started yesterday, so you can't really say the Bogre wagon was "first".M4yhem wrote: I'd also like to know why you are so sure that both Bogre and Livingod are scum. That seems kinda unlikely to me. I'm guessing one of the bandwagons is on a townie- possibly livingod's, since it started second.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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At the end of the day yesterday, I actually wasn't on the panzer wagon. I did think Panzer was suspicious, though, and I was on the wagon earlier in the day.
By the end of the day, around the time of my post 534, I was starting to doubt the panzer wagon partly just because everyone else seemed to be supporting it, which in a game with this many scum is probably a bad sign, so I while I wasn't interested in defending Panzer because he did still look rather scummy, I was looking for someone else who might be a better lynch. I wasn't "waiting until tommorow" at all, I was actually in the process of trying to find if there was a better lynch then panzer right then, although the day ended before anything on livingod really got started.
And by the way, if livingod does turn out to be scum, then the way Bogre ended the day with a hammer just as people were starting to be suspicious of livingod could be scummy.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie-
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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