NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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Disclaimer: this is my first large game and I have no idea how to approach it.
Why is this not a selfvote?
In post 26, Csareo wrote:Can you revive yourself?
Yeah m8 I'll come back 3 times pal
In post 26, Csareo wrote:In post 24, Egg wrote:Vote Pere
I honestly think he is scum.
FoS Thor
^in case I'm wrong. You know why.
Also there is nothing joking about this post.
I'm completely serious.
For real.
^__^
Please elaborate?
Why did you ask him to elaborate? Did you truly think he had a scumread on pere?
In post 33, Csareo wrote:Are you trying to imply something. I'm curious on why you immediately latch on to this player as the game begins.
Wha does this mean?
In post 35, Csareo wrote:What reasons do you have to believe they weren't being serious? I don't like the idea of you white-washing a "three shot reviver" claim.
I'm going to be looking closer at your interactions with TierShift in the future.
How many games have you played on this forum?
VOTE: csareo-
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In post 60, T S O wrote:This is the first game I have ever seen from Csareo where his opening post was not astoundingly scummy. He must be Town!
Was he scum in all the other games?
I'm not sure how large neighbourhoods work but I'm sad I'm not in it. There is probably scum in there, but then again there is probably scum in every random 5-player-group.
P-edit wow so many posts-
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In post 67, T S O wrote:BE's Mind Mafia, page 1, enter Csareo.
He was town in that one. I don't know his alignment in the other.
So uh, you claim his town openings are scummy and he shows a non-scummy opening here, so he's town?-
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In post 64, Thor665 wrote:
In post 43, Cho wrote:Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.
VOTE: Cho
I believe the claim.
Congratulations, you are a pro-scum and weak player who appreciates even worse gambits than Nero Cain.
VOTE: TierShift
Deal with it.-
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In post 79, Thor665 wrote:In post 75, TierShift wrote:In post 64, Thor665 wrote:
In post 43, Cho wrote:Cho claimed Mafia 2-Shot Even-Night Bulletproof Vigilante in the neighborhood last night.
VOTE: Cho
I believe the claim.
Congratulations, you are a pro-scum and weak player who appreciates even worse gambits than Nero Cain.
VOTE: TierShift
Deal with it.
Wow, such brilliant play, be still my heart - your scumhunting is of high standards and proves my point wrong.
Thank you! Do you need some advice to get up to my standards?-
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In post 97, Csareo wrote:VOTE: TSO
Something's off about your play this game, and how this wagon formed on me.
I don't like it.....
What about the wagon formation is wrong?-
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In post 106, Csareo wrote:I've seen town TSO, and this is not town TSO.
1 game meta? what are the main differences with him before?-
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In post 117, goodmorning wrote:I'm 99.9999999999% sure that was a good old dose of Tier sarcasm.
I'm also a gunsmith???
Noting egg's 124 for future reference.-
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Blugh large games move too fast.
Csareo is town due to this post.
In post 93, Csareo wrote:In post 90, T S O wrote:Idiocy confirmed!
PEdit: Sweetheart, I'm not sure if you were reading or not, but I was actually the one calling you town.
I don't like how you and garmr are trying to rack me up as the VI.
It seems like you're trying to set me up as your buddy, but be immortalized in the town bloc once I flip town.
Not sure about anyone else atm.-
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In post 250, Aneninen wrote:TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
So, you're assuming TSO only talks to csareo to generate noise? When has he started doing so and has he done all along?
In post 266, davesaz wrote:Getting town vibes on goodmorning.
Why? What do you think of csareo/tso?
VOTE: TSO
Because the csareo wagon is shit and this one's decent?
I hugely dislike keeping the vote on csareo early game.
Oh and I have no idea where my vote was nor what the VC is at.
Closer looks will be taken at garmr, TSO, anen and Nero.-
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In post 271, davesaz wrote:I only said gm was a vibe. Don't see scum going into that much trouble or detail. Content can certainly sway me on that.
Let me quote gm's sig for you:
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
I see csareo/tso as likely to be tvt, but that is not a firm position yet.
Why do you think it's tvt? What in csareo's behaviour makes you think so? What in TSO's behaviour makes you think so?
P-edit:
Dawww <3
More people should sheep me-
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In post 290, davesaz wrote:TSO looks like angry young person to me, not scum. That's fairly definitive. Scum don't do this except when thrashing around right before a lynch.
That is easy as shit to fake as scum. I do this when people accuse me of stupid things as scum.-
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In post 296, davesaz wrote:I'm not saying T S O is town as a result, just saying it's null. Using meta to call it scum may be valid if he's scum when angry more often than not, but I can't use this directly.
This is the worst kind of meta tbh-
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In post 309, T S O wrote:In post 292, TierShift wrote:In post 290, davesaz wrote:TSO looks like angry young person to me, not scum. That's fairly definitive. Scum don't do this except when thrashing around right before a lynch.
That is easy as shit to fake as scum. I do this when people accuse me of stupid things as scum.
Well, that's fantastic that you do it as scum, but I don't see why that's any way relevant to what I do as scum.
In post 297, TierShift wrote:In post 296, davesaz wrote:I'm not saying T S O is town as a result, just saying it's null. Using meta to call it scum may be valid if he's scum when angry more often than not, but I can't use this directly.
This is the worst kind of meta tbh
My least favorite type of meta is when you use your own to somehow conclude I could easily be scum, but sure.
I was saying that being angry for getting stupidly attacked is super easy to fake as scum. I'm not saying you're scum for it, as you seem to conclude, but it's more null than anything. Why did you feel the need to defend the tell dave had on you?-
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In post 338, Aneninen wrote:@Tiershift: TSO started interacting with Csareo around post 90 or so and maybe he stopped doing it right before your post, 270. After that he started talking with Cho.
This doesn't answer my question of if he interacted with csareo just to generate noise. I wasn't asking where they interacted, I was asking where the interactioswere aimed at generating noise.-
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In post 346, Garmr wrote:I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.
UNVOTE: toby
I don't like this post and I'll research you now.
In post 357, Aneninen wrote:@TierShift. I don't know whether it was intentional but I still thought it was a noise.
Ok, I get you. You're arguing it's noise, while others are arguing "scum would never be so abrasive/genuinely pissed". What do you think about the latter take?
Though, I must admit that I might have misread the situation because I don't find entertaining reading Csareo-posts. If I weren't strongly against WotC-s I'd choose Csareo for that. But, I think his gameplay may improve later.
Csareo has been replaced now by grayfoxxxx.
And stop saying you're shit. You don't feign confidence, push your own ideas and so far seem to keep an open mind, which makes you better than ~65% of this site.-
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Garmr's ISO is a bit....bland. Garmr, why do you townread TSO? Why did your read on toby change? Why is boonskiies null/scum?
Tobyloby makes me feel extremely comfortable and I have the feeling I know her. Her pushes are coherent and thoroughly understandable. I'm wanting her to be town. Toby, you mentioned other people backing off the csareo wagon being scummy. Who would classify as such besides nero?
Nero cain's vote doesn't match his thoughts, as tobyloby pointed out. He eventually says he thinks csareo is town and the wagon is scummy but refuses to vote on the wagon. Why is that, nero cain?
P-ed: here are some questions garmr-
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Spoiler: I don't like this post
In post 376, Thor665 wrote:
Well, your presented case on him is pretty paper thin as stands, so it's not like you're even seeing anything.
My read on him is more one of gut and 'I agree with that' but I like how he singled out Tier as looking town and didn't mention GM - which is where I'm at and feels a logical town place to be rather than a scum looking to toss out some easy town reads.
I like you, thor. You're probably town. I like the non-read on gm that I am feelng myself.
Agreed.
In post 391, PeregrineV wrote:In post 46, TierShift wrote:Disclaimer: this is my first large game and I have no idea how to approach it.
This would be the scum approach to dealing with a previously unknown environment.
If this is a serious post, please elaborate.-
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In post 407, TobyLoby wrote:@Tiershift,
In post 359, TierShift wrote:I don't like this post and I'll research you now.
What about Gamr's post don't you like?
The fact that he was 'lost' at a time in day 1 where reads are being formed and confusion is low. I didn't find it likely for town to be lost in such a spot, but scum can obviously say they're lost. I'm a little bit more comforted by recent garmr posting, but still bland bland bland. I'll see after full catchup.
In post 412, Cho wrote:Also, my vote on T S O was premature and fueled by illogical desires. I think he's town.
VOTE: davesaz
This is a temporary OMGUS vote, in lieu of a solid scumread to focus on at the moment. I'm a bit disconnected from this game.
What happened to sheeping me?
Spoiler: anen post
I see reluctancy to give stronger stances than this. The pere read is based on bullshit. I find the reactions to 360 and 412 scummy. Feels like he doesn't want to get associated with anyone or speak up to anyone.
I can appreciate this vote.-
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In post 425, Garmr wrote:In post 424, Aneninen wrote:@Gammrnmhrm
"Well if the only thing that strikes me are scum points thenwhy should I think his town?"– You don't have to. But, frankly is he your strongest scumread now?
"You just made my point even stronger. Dodging subjects is town how?"– No, I don't like that either. I just don't understand why you mentioned the Csareo-subject. You could have talked about anything else too.
1.Yes he is
2.Because I was asked about my thoughts at the time or at least I took it that way and that was the most relevant subject at the time. The cho subject was still ongoing (still kinda is) and not at it's peak.
This is lame, super lame. The question is useless and the answer is made in a too serious manner. Marking as possible buddy tell for later.
In post 459, Thor665 wrote:In post 458, Izariael wrote:You can hope all you like, but I was srs. Nothing wrong with committing to a null.
Except trying to take credit for it while bashing someone offering mild alignment leans as weak - then there IS a problem with committing to it.
I COMMIT TO THIS NULL READ...by the way, this other guy isn't getting behind his town adn scum reads other than to say he "feels" this way about them. That's the scummiest thing in this thread!
I would be okay lynching Izariael now.
Are you serious? Why is iza's behaviour scummy? (As in, why are scum nore likely to do it than town, don't give a dumb answer)
In post 464, Boonskiies wrote:Anyhoosies, I don't like that Cho keeps making the mafia claim joke, (he did it in neighborhood along with doing it on his first post). It looks like a thing mafia might do to seem like a joke, and make people go, "Oh lookie here, they are making a joke, HAHAHAHA, THAT'S FUNNY! He can't really be scum!" And that's scummy. Also, he is making up reasons for why would I as scum scenarios, like outing the neighborhood. Seems planned. YAWWWWW.
Vote: Cho
I like this post but then again I am assuming boonskiies to be some sort of abomination of a player..-
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In post 486, Egg wrote:Tier to TSO wrote:Why did you feel the need to defend the tell dave had on you?
Why shouldn't he? Also, it seems weird that you would shoot down the anger town tell as easy to fake only to call it null when questioned further on it. And when I ISO'd you for TSO mentions, I found a lot of mentions of him, but couldn't tell what your actual read on him was until I saw your vote on him. Everything from you about TSO seems off to me.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If a towntell is easy to fake, it is null, since both scum and town do it. About the rest of the TSO mentions, I can't help you. Currently I like his anen push and thus think he might be town.
Also, can you explain this:
Tier wrote:Tobyloby makes me feel extremely comfortable and I have the feeling I know her. Her pushes are coherent and thoroughly understandable. I'm wanting her to be town.
It seems like a weird thing to say.
It's exactly what it says. She makes me comfortable and I hope that she is town, because she seems like a great asset to whichever alignment she's playing. I have her at decently town atm.
I don't understand why you focus on the things you focus.-
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In post 735, Thor665 wrote:In post 734, TierShift wrote:Are you serious? Why is iza's behaviour scummy? (As in, why are scum nore likely to do it than town, don't give a dumb answer)
The only reason that unexplained reads are scummy is because they are easily changeable.
That is the core definition of a null read as well.
I will agree that Izzy is making big noise about how well explained his null read was - but it doesn't change what a null read is nor does it change the only issue with unexplained reads.
Therefore, he's doing something, calling it townish, and complaining that someone is doing something different and calling it scummy - while blind to the fact that it is the same type of pro-scum play.
Making him either town who is dangerous to have in the game due to inability to read below the surface or scum.
Both making him a viable lynch option to me.
What's your issue with my stance?
Don't give a dumb answer.
Izzy looks like he believes in that strongly felt nullreads are more of a commitment than soft townreads, he really does. I was wondering why you didn't see that and instead focused on the sense he wasn't making and calling him scummy over it.-
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In post 744, Thor665 wrote:Hint: I am scumhunting you.
That is not an excuse for your tone.
I did address gm's post, more after dinner.-
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In post 748, Garmr wrote:-_- are you fucking kidding me tier shift walk out this door right now. I was already thinking annienen was null- scum when he tried to chainsaw me on boon and couldn't respond and your trying to pin that moment as when I thought annienen might be scum. I may be newish thanks to my ban but I'm not fucking so stupid to let someone like you try to misrep me here. PS asking who is your top scum read is not a stupid question either.
I'm pointing out I found it weak. What about it is misrepping?-
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Thor, to me it seemed obvious that he was in fact thinking that his strong commitment to nullreads meant something. That doesn't make him look scummy in my book, it's just a different (and wrong, imo) take on theory. You were stating that different take made him scummy, but that doesn't work for me and it seemed to me you were overly focusing on the words instead of the intent. That was the issue I had with your read on izi.
Only now have you said that this different take on theory might be scum faking it and you're insinuating that that is what you were thinking earlier. But you didn't say that earlier and I did not know.
So tell me what it is, what he was scummy for:
1. Getting his theory wrong
2. Possibly faking wrong theory
You were arguing 1 and now you seem to be arguing 2. That's inconsistent.
@garmr: oh, my bad. When I say buddy tell I mean scummbuddy tell. I saw it as two scumbuddies sharing some words just for the sake of having shared some words later. I was only marking it as a consideration for if either of you flips scum.-
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Okay thor, we seem not to be on the same page.
How things seemed to have gone according to me:
You call iza out for his flawed logic and say in the same post you are willing to lynch him.This led me to believe you thought iza was scummy for flawed theory, which I took issue with. However, the quote below says you found it deserving of something resembling a PL, instead of finding it scummy.
thor wrote:In post 754, TierShift wrote:You were arguing 1 and now you seem to be arguing 2. That's inconsistent.
I actually argued that #1 meant he deserved death,I never argued that it made him scummy.
Next quote, however, shows you did find him scummy at that time, presumably for messing up theory.
You have not really addressed why you had issue with me questioning himor finding his answers scummy.
I only take issue with you finding him scummy for genuine, flawed logic. It seemed to be you were doing that, but currently it is not clear to me anymore.-
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Okay thor, I understand now. You captured the issue I had with your posting in 762. Just remember that if you say something like 'I want to lynch you now', it makes people think you scumread said person.
Just this one quote doesn't make sense. Haven't we both agreed that iza did not in fact produce scummy content (which I thought you were arguing) or town content (which you think I'm arguing, but I'm not!), but that the scripten scumread was null behaviour? Then how does the next quote in which you call him scummy for it make sense?
In post 756, Thor665 wrote:You have not really addressed why you had issue with me questioning him or finding his answers scummy.-
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I do not really feel strongly in any way about peregrine's reads list on page 21. The gm scumread is okay, I guess.In post 521, Muffin wrote:
Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
- tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
- posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote
I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.
This post is shitty and makes me not want to vote peregrine at all.
Why?
I'm exhausted and will make a better vote at the end of catchups, tomorrow probably.
UNVOTE:-
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In post 799, Thor665 wrote:I would think my other comment of 'I am in a neighborhood and not claiming it yet' would remove all doubt.
Where is this post?
Response to inquiry when I have time.-
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Thor, I find me repeating myself. I also want to say you're a fucking snoc for attributing the misunderstanding to me alone.
In post 799, Thor665 wrote:You leapt to his defense and had issue with my conclusions as regards him - which, by definition, means you have to have a town read there or there would be no issue to raise with me and what I said.
If your read of him was 'null' for instance...that would mean that you would understand his reads were screwy and would have agreed with me and, if you had decided to call it out, your language would have been one of 'what scum motive do you see in his screwy logic' as opposed to your chosen track.
I can take issue with someone calling null behaviour scummy (which I thought you were doing) without having a townread on said person. That is not at all a requirement. I have no idea why you feel I should have approached you differently than I have. Quote where I express a townread on iza. I only expressed feelings that him thinking nullreads can be committed to was genuine. That is not equal to a townread.
1. Explain your specific issue with how I approached him (even working within the misunderstanding you're now admitting to)
2. Then describe your chosen approach and why you thought it was a good approach.
1. You called null behaviour scummy (which is the misunderstanding I was working with). That is my specific issue. Scum do that.
2. I approached you by asking if you seriously found him scummy for that. You didn't try to clear up the misunderstanding, so I kept working on the assumption that you found him scummy for it. I then defended him on that assumption. No regrets.-
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In post 831, Thor665 wrote:My Neighborhood is me, Pere, and Egg.
Shit. I found egg slipping knowledge of the neighbourhood in 124, which is why I posted 125. There defnitely hadn't been enough info to conclude you were in a neighbourhood, so I hoped egg wasn't in your neighbourhood and scumslipped.-
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In post 827, goodmorning wrote:It is actually a note to Thor, asking him politely to fuck off but not directly so I still have plausible deniability when he inevitably chooses to be offended by it.
In post 828, goodmorning wrote:Does anyone know whether Thor whinges as much as Town as he does as Scum?
I was wondering if it is alignment-indicative for thor too.-
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In post 848, Thor665 wrote:If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?
Is scumperegrine known to do these things?
I'll reread when completing catchups.-
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 8384
- Joined: November 5, 2013
In post 588, Cho wrote:I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.
In post 592, Cho wrote:In post 588, Cho wrote:I'm fairly sure this game is multiball, considering the moderator's own posts in Mafia Discussion that were highly enthusiastic toward multiball.
Disregard this post. Wrong moderator.
This is town thought process.
In post 591, Cho wrote:Sure.
Whenever someone is called scummy for bringing up multiball, I generally disagree. The main exception is in situations further on or late-game where a "what if it's multiball" comment can throw town's plans for a loop, or when it seems to be designed to instill (usually role-related) paranoia.
I disagree with PeregrineV, or anyone really, saying that multiball discussion is scummy at this point in time. I used to think those who called bringing up multiball scummy were scum themselves, but lately it seems that there's a large portion of the userbase that whether town or scum seems intent on continuing to push "scumtells" that are either outdated or never existed globally in the first place.
In this case, while I have a slight bias against PeregrineV since I felt we were receiving different treatments while we both weren't caught up, I don't think it has much bearing on PeregrineV's alignment. (I do see him as one of the players who sticks to using certain scumtell-catches that I disagree with.) I would feel validated if he were scum. But I don't feel ready to make any sort of judgment on him yet, and part of the reason why is because I'm still in a state of perpetual catch-up. So many pages yet to read, and every single time I log on, I just want to "restart" from the latest page I see.
Do you understand this, or rather, follow my train of thought?
And I like this post.
In post 605, Thor665 wrote:
I will agree the wiki defines multiball as notincluding SKs.
I will also say I have been in a game witha 2-player SK.
That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
Also, if I had clarified SK - I understand that 'SK hunting' is also considered a scumtell (or SK tell) so I don't actually see the point of even trying to draw the difference here.
Do you disagree that my comment means what I said it means here? And if you do, please explain why.
Jesus do you ever admit it you're wrong when you are?-
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 8384
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In post 870, Nero Cain wrote:In post 869, TierShift wrote:Boon, claim your role if it confirms multiball.
no. Do not claim, boon.
Why?
Softclaiming is the worst. He felt his claim was beneficial earlier, so it must be now.-
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 8384
- Joined: November 5, 2013
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
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TierShift Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8384
- Joined: November 5, 2013