NY 179: Cute and Fluffy Mafia (Town Win)

[TellTaleHeart]

Hello everyone, I'm still in the process of reading and catching up. I'll be with you shortly.

[TellTaleHeart]

How long is it until deadline?

[TellTaleHeart]

We still have 5 1/2 days. There's still time.

VOTE: dragonspawn

[TellTaleHeart]

We still have 5 1/2 days. There's still time.

VOTE: dragonspawn

I'll do a write up on this sometime soon, but long story short this is a

long

ISO. At 99 posts, dragonspawn has the third most posts in the game, only behind Garmr and TDA. He's one of the lowest impact players and smallest presences in the game, though, and it's by design. If you go look at the ISO, you'll see that it's really light on actual reads and almost never steps back to take a look at the bigger picture. The objective is apparently to maintain a high posting to productivity ratio. Most of the posts themselves consist of potshots at relatively minor details or lip service and rhetoric about broad philosophy that's not really applicable to the specifics of this game. The vote pattern and ebb and flow of the reads don't track well and don't make much sense from a town perspective (note: he was part of the mass migration from the TDA wagon to the killa wagon).

In short, I see a lot of scum motivation in dragonspawn's posting and not much town.

[TellTaleHeart]

Mod, is the latest vote count correct? I don't recall StrangerCoug voting himself and I believe dragonspawn if voting randomidget.

[TellTaleHeart]

@TTH: I'm not really feeling it. I read your reasons and I think I like your thought process on it enough to put you in my town pile for now. What are your thoughts on RM though?

You're correct that randomidget tends to write short, telegraphic posts that usually don't exceed a couple sentences and he doesn't tend to explain himself. I hardly consider that definitive proof that he's scum, and a quick search of completed games will corroborate that: Open 582: Stakin' the Deck, Newbie 1558, Mini 1627: Ninja Mini Mafia, Newbie 1545, and Open 578: Fire and Ice.

In passing, I did see a few post-game quotes:

Plz could people give me advice? This was possibly my worsr game of all time.
I only have one scumgame which I drew and that felt awesome.
Gg everyone!

and

Well gg guys, I thought we had it.
I only have onr scum game and so many vanilla's it's ridiculous.

He enjoys playing scum. For what it's worth, his ISO doesn't look like the ISO of someone having fun to me. I think this wagon is sub-optimal and, as NakedJogger noted, its size isn't proportionate to the strength of the evidence backing it.

[TellTaleHeart]

I am more convinced by the weakness of his convictions than the cricket call nature of his posts.

I wouldn't consider this conclusive proof, either. With the apparent lack of investment in the game, I wouldn't expect the convictions stemming from the nonexistent arguments and thoughts to be strong.

[TellTaleHeart]

*irk*
Why are you voting the wagon then?

[TellTaleHeart]

We can do so much better than randomidget, even among low information posters. I think I Am Innocent and Nero Cain have a higher chance of flipping scum than randomidget does.

Spoiler: Dragonspawn spoilered for tidiness

Up until Post 159, dragon's response to TDA's initial accusation about him being Nero Cain's buddy doesn't seem innocent anyway, but there's a lot of things wrong with the vote that comes in post 159:

VOTE: tda

I find quote editing scummy behavior so the best evidence we have so far is tda.

plus id like to see where this wagon goes.

TDA's original "transgression" here was "editing" out half of a quote in Post 76. This initial case, by itself, is based on sensationalized bullshit. TDA's original point was fairly straightforward: short of reviewing both players' history, he had no way of knowing whether dragonspawn knew Nero Cain or not. dragonspawn said, unequivocally, that he didn't know Nero Cain and TDA's choice of what to quote didn't subvert the meaning of the original post and dragonspawn doesn't bother to prove otherwise.
So, we've already got a vote based on pillars of sand, but the last sentence, "plus id like to see where this wagon goes." is a really awkward justification for the vote and doesn't fit the context. Intuitively, the late positions on the wagon (specifically in dragon's case, the sixth) don't seem to be the places for votes with the "let's see where this goes" attitude. There's clearly an established and mature wagon there, so what kind of progression could dragon possibly be looking for? I simply don't believe this reasoning.

The bandwagon vote is also dissonant with the expressed attitude to ABR's suggestion of a quicklynch:

This is not the time for discussion. This is the time for quicklynch and hammertime.

why on earth should we quick lynch anyone?

This post accompanied by the apparent conviction behind the TDA push makes the indignation ring hollow.

Scrolling down, we see that most of the real estate in dragon's ISO is devoted to the same, tired, obviously bullshit argument with TDA over semantics and quote trimming.

The vote switch in Post 499 is abrupt and doesn't contain clear reasons:

I'm more inclined to believe tda is just a bad town player right now rather than scum. So leaving my vote on him at this point would be a policy lynch. And while I don't relish his game play lasting to later rounds, it seems prudent to me vote on a better scum choice.

VOTE: killpen

I'm starting to think iai is more town now.

The transition between "lying scum who's editing quotes" to "foolish/bad town" certainly requires some sort of explanation, which dragon doesn't bother to give. In Post 526, he falls back on circular reasoning when confronted about the wagon change. There's a world of difference between lying scum and bad town. Just insisting TDA

is

bad town doesn't feel like a natural progression in the read.

Then there's the reaction to the claim.

Let's lynch killapenwin, the lack of activity close to lynch points to scum.

Mostly because I am not finding this game interesting at all: people voting without giving reasons in the same post and the opposite others doing super multi-quotes that are just ridiculously long and pointless. I'm not going to read something if you can't make the point in less that 5 quotes, nor am I going to scour the thread trying to find your reasons.

I'll make things easier on you guys though since you a piss poor lynch so much

vote:killapenwin L- 1

I was town tracker but will be dead tonight now anyway.

maybe if you made an effort you wouldn't be in this predicament.

btw dont votes have to be on separate lines. I'm not sure your vote counts.

Self-voting is usually playing against your wincon as far as I'm aware, bit of a null statement.

As town tracker I will most likely be killed tonight before I can even produce anything of use, thanks to the wagon on me spearheaded by Garmr. In case it is not glaringly obvious I am not going to last long enough to be of any use, someone asked for my reads so I gave them.

Dripping and ABR are happy to jump on any wagon that forms and don't even reason their votes so they are probably scum.
Garmr just charges head on with lies and everyone thinks it is ok. You have just lost a town tracker and the neighbourhood because of him.
Naked is also someone not giving reasons with his votes, probable scum.

really? Gamr forced you to claim tracker and self vote? And everyone else forced you to put up no defense of yourself?

what a cop out.

For someone who's all about information I'm shocked he has this blasé attitude about lynching a claimed

investigative

role. There's no hesitation, no reluctance, no evaluation of the claim at all, which is inconsistent with all the lip service about wanting discussion.

There's also a

long

list of posts that push the right buttons and inflate the post count without any actually substance following from them:
Post 176, Post 197, Post 318, Post 380, Post 413, Post 464, Post 499, Post 526, Post 540, Post 589, Post 683, Post 701, Post 719, Post 737, Post 767, Post 787, Post 801, Post 831, Post 864, Post 956, Post 1002

[TellTaleHeart]

dragon psssshhh jump on the random midget wagon with me.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe he is.

The DrippingGoofball wagon kind of snuck up on me. :S
From what I remember, my first impression was that she was relatively town. I'll be reading the wagoner's ISOs and trying to put together why this wagon exists, but help from any of them would be appreciated and would expedite the process.

Unfortunately people I would vote for based on my first read through, dragonspawn, Nero Cain, and StrangerCoug, don't seem to be attracting much suspicion, or if they are it's disorganized and scattered. I'll walk through the Nero and StrangerCoug reads again since they need re-examining anyway.

[TellTaleHeart]

I posted a post using those games as a example why his scum. Where you can see the evolution of his town game and how the only scum game he has looks like this. Think my meta read was better.

Could you please link me to where you did the meta study, because I'm looking through your ISO and searching words like "meta" and I'm not finding it. I don't think I'm looking for the right thing. :S

From the meta alone, I can't really tell a difference between randomidget's town and scum games. The basic pattern is that they both seem like short, telegraphic posts with sporadic attempts at reads lists. I can't tell. The

only

thing that pushes him kind of toward the town side is the whole thing I pointed out about his preference for playing scum, but I admit it's speculative. Overall, I feel like a randomidget lynch would yield roughly random chance of him flipping scum.

I would switch dragon and random midget around in your reads as you won't get a dragon lynch off his town as. Nero cain is unreadable to me at the moment and stranger cougar is something I'm willing to look into because of his iffy reasoning to town read nero he does redeem himself a little with latter posting.

My major,

major

problem is how I can't make sense of the reads progression and how the votes follow from the reads. I'm wondering how he suddenly came up with "TDA is bad town" and what was building up to the killa vote because other than a single reads list where killa is named as "leaning scum" (Post 379), I'm coming up empty.

I just thought of an alternate theory that could make sense from a town perspective, and it's that he's following you and your reads around because he's townreading you. An initial look at the mod and dragonspawn's double ISO corroborates this, but I'm still trying to hammer out precisely

why

this is occurring and how this dynamic might make sense for him as town. This is a difficult task because he doesn't cite any of your posting in his.

[TellTaleHeart]

I've been on the site for about half a year now, since August of last year.

[TellTaleHeart]

We should all compile a reads list. I'll go first. D3x is scum. Thank you.

Rinshan

If random midget flips scum I would consider naked jogger likely scum as well. I actually was going to try to keep my scum read I developed last night on random midget hidden till he gave a reads list. Naked Jogger post here was prematurely was trying to diffuse the value of my push.

Random midget is quite happy to not hunt when he is scum fire and ice There's was no hunting at all done by him just observations.

His hope game Shows as town he does have concern over who his lynches, trying to avoid a quick lynch while in this game he couldn't give a fudge.

Malas mewbie game (don't worry it's finished even through it says day 3) shows natural progress in random midgets town game. His current game has gone back to his earlier games style with some of his scum traits.

VOTE: random midget

It gets murky, because I remember he got mislynched as town a couple times in the games I linked precisely

because

he didn't explain himself well and in one of them he explicitly acknowledged that post-game (Newbie 1545, post 983). This still makes me feel like randomidget lynch is little more than a craps shoot.

Following someone around is a scum-tell, which isn't surprising, since you're talking about Dragon spawn.

I don't know if I agree with that, but the theory is kind of thready anyway since I can't really find any

direct

, solid evidence of dragonspawn following Garmr around. I have him giving townreads on Garmr, but I feel like there should be more than that.

[TellTaleHeart]

Did Garmr ever dismiss you as bad?

[TellTaleHeart]

There is definitely scum pushing either mine or dgbs wagon.

Then you're probably town.

I think this is a case of the lurksacks being unlynchable, and only the players that post being under scrutiny, and getting votes. The strategy really pays off, the scum will lurk their way to the win.

Whenever there is talk of lynching a lurker, there are a few players oozing out of the floor board to defend the lurker's town credentials, based on what? Only the devil knows, they are lurkers exactly to make it difficult for the rest of us to read them.

UNVOTE:

If you guys won't lynch lurkers, enjoy losing to scum. It's not going to be my fault, because I tried to lynch lurkers and no, you all want to lynch active players instead.

I'll be delighted to be today's lynch under these circumstances.

Oh and I'm vanilla and I don't care.

If you want to lynch a lurker, I'd be down for Nero Cain.

[TellTaleHeart]

The most troublesome part of Nero's play is how the neighborhood dynamic is factoring into it's play, or rather how it's not. The early-game argument with TDA, summarized in Post 375, over what apparently happened in the neighborhood PT noticeably didn't yield a tangible

read

on TDA. The interactions with TDA, contained in Post 136, Post 375, Post 381, Post 385, Post 387, Post 391, and Post 687, are mostly concerned with defense and nitpicking at TDA's argument. Definitive reads or judgments about either d3x or TDA's alignments are completely absent and that is

not

what I would expect from someone who has an extra PT conversation going with them. Furthermore, it doesn't look like he's attempting to refine those reads at all, opting for votes on the ika policy lynch wagon and the randomidget wagon. And for all the tunneling on IAI, the case just isn't there.

As a side note, I think the overall neighborhood dynamic that Nero Cain, d3x, and TheDudeAbides have going here is very usual and counter-intuitive. The only distrust is that TDA is scum reading Nero Cain, but there's a distinct lack of synergy between the three players when it comes to reads and voting. They don't move as a block, which is what I would expect to see from 3 players who mostly trust each other who share a PT. The read from d3x on Nero Cain feels really off too, in Post 552. Since Nero Cain doesn't

really

have any solid stances, this is a really strained angle to give Nero a null-town read and I think it demonstrates a lack of skepticism on d3x's part I would expect to see in a town neighbor. I also think the reaction in Post 351 to TDA and Nero's argument is awkward because it downplays the importance of what TDA's concerns about Nero. I think it's more likely for the purpose of smoothing everything over and deflecting attention away from the goings on the neighborhood than trying to get to establish a more solid read on either Nero or TDA.

I think there's a good chance both Nero Cain and d3x are scum.

VOTE: Nero Cain

[TellTaleHeart]

ika already admitted to only doing this as a cross-replacement and has demonstrated a lack of investment in the game. Anything else?

[TellTaleHeart]

Neither does the lurking.

[TellTaleHeart]

yeah this doesn't happen. While yes, I've seen players that have agreed with each others reads but players agreeing on reads doesn't always happen and with a years worth of experience is quite baffling that you'd express skepticism.

That doesn't account for the fact that you three are so disjointed.

OMGUS and stuff but I didn't like TTH's 1115. Her lite defense of IKA is strange too.

No, what's strange is that you have two neighbors who you're largely ignoring and you're voting a random lurker.

[TellTaleHeart]

@tth why is nero a better vote than dragon?

1115 is giving me opportunistic feels.

Because everyone refuses to vote dragon and the fact I started the wagon undermines your argument.

[TellTaleHeart]

What is your read and why on TDA?

Ha!

You have stated

no

read on the man even though he's the subject of a good portion of your posts and you've talked to him in a PT pregame and Night 1. And you now demand

my

read of him?

I have several things to do before spoonfeeding you a TDA read, which is town just in case you couldn't guess that from my dragonspawn read.

[TellTaleHeart]

I looked at the game you linked and, stylistically, ika's posting is quite different from the posting here. While he did tend to post infrequently, his posts were lengthy catch-ups and massive walls of text.

I think ika is another lynch that has roughly random chance of flipping scum.

[TellTaleHeart]

I suppose. I can't really help what everyone thinks my motives are, but ika just doesn't seem like a high-percentage play to me.

[TellTaleHeart]

Why do you think IAI is scum?

I retract that read.

Originally, what bothered me was that when I was looking through his posts in isolation, I saw that he was town reading Peacebringer in Post 468 and Post 471 but then voted him in Post 760 without any clear explanation in between. At the time, I failed to see that in the interim, there was the killapenguin flip and IAI was likely echoing StrangerCoug's reasoning for voting Peacebringer, both of which could account for the reads change.

[TellTaleHeart]

And you rather vote an active player that's giving content who has a 0% chance of flipping scum.

GREAT PLAY!

I have yet to see a read on either of your neighbors.

[TellTaleHeart]

Though the only slight worry I have is that IAI is "convinced" there is scum there and am not sure if that it scum coasting that or he has a buddy in there.

What's that supposed to mean?

If he had a buddy in there wouldn't it be to his advantage, as scum, to toe the party line "The neighborhood is all town"?

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm not voting either. So gun to my head? town.

This shouldn't be a "gun to head" question. Why is sorting your neighbors in your reads list such a low priority for you?

[TellTaleHeart]

I've drawn Town Neighbor before and I know how it feels to get a role PM with another player in it and the paranoia that accompanies it. It's noticeably absent with you, and I think it's because you're not town.

[TellTaleHeart]

OMG, you're in a hood!

Also, d3x's response to Naked Jogger earlier today wasn't very good, particularly the redirect to indignation about being called a "bad player" when Naked Jogger did no such thing.

[TellTaleHeart]

Where did that happen?

[TellTaleHeart]

I was left with the impression that those sentences imply that you aren't bad and therefore scum.

[TellTaleHeart]

dragonspawn and d3x

[TellTaleHeart]

If you don't vote Nero in your next post, I want a reason why.

Because I'll vote whoever the hell I want and I just don't see the Nero Cain wagon.

I still want DrippingGoofball dead but I understand the randomidget wagon better than I used to.

This is another lurker I would lynch.

[TellTaleHeart]

I could imagine all the posts you talked about coming from either alignment.

[TellTaleHeart]

@telltaleheart I want you to read my posts from 1609 till now and tell me what you think.

Yes, it's you pushing the randomidget wagon and people voting it. randomidget's posting is nonsensical but I would expect nothing less from someone not reading the thread.

You keep trying to get me to bless this wagon, but I still think it's a craps shoot. I realize that if randomidget flips scum, it'll probably be my turn in the noose next but my opinion is what it is.

[TellTaleHeart]

I will be pretty psyched if the scum are ika, dragonspaw and SC

I will too. ^_^

[TellTaleHeart]

@telltaleheart I want you to read my posts from 1609 till now and tell me what you think.

Yes, it's you pushing the randomidget wagon and people voting it. randomidget's posting is nonsensical but I would expect nothing less from someone not reading the thread.

You keep trying to get me to bless this wagon, but I still think it's a craps shoot. I realize that if randomidget flips scum, it'll probably be my turn in the noose next but my opinion is what it is.

how do you figure we would be lynching you tomorrow when rm flips scum? Has anyone given any indication that they think you are scum? Is there an association between the two of you that we should know about?

Spoiler: Relevant posts

I have a hard time believing that's a thing Scumika would do. Unless something drastic changes, ika is Town.

he's going to do this regardless of alignment.

SC, why do you have/had a town read on me?

Well, I don't think there has to be scum in the hood, but you were scummy anyway.

naw. You posted shit reasons for suspecting D3X. I didn't agree with your shit reasons. That's not scummy or buddying.

IAI, why do yu have a town read on RM?

I could be psyching myself out her but I'm starting to think IAI might not be scum but more in the morning.

follow up: sometimes I think players are intentionally scummy. I felt like

Next person to vote Nero, firebound, or nakedjogger, gets my vote there too.

was pretty scummy. I'll give him a few nights to eat a bullet but if not I want this dead.

Definitive reads or judgments about either d3x or TDA's alignments are completely absent and that is not what I would expect from someone who has an extra PT conversation going with them.

I mean, I've thought about it. I guess its not impossible that he's scum and posted a really really bad case on d3x and then ponced on me for not pouncing on d3x. If d3x is scum its NOT for the reasons presented by TDA.

They don't move as a block, which is what I would expect to see from 3 players who mostly trust each other who share a PT

yeah this doesn't happen. While yes, I've seen players that have agreed with each others reads but players agreeing on reads doesn't always happen and with a years worth of experience is quite baffling that you'd express skepticism.
OMGUS and stuff but I didn't like TTH's 1115. Her lite defense of IKA is strange too.

Why should I be suspicious of d3x?

What is your read and why on TDA?

RM, Ika are my preferred lynches but will join the DGB wagon.

Why not lynch Ika today and vig RM?

Is TTH scum once Ika flips scum?

Do you buy into RM's "scum slip"?

I just feel like his town games are so different. He's active and trolly. I do NOT think him being a crossreplace has anything to do with his activity. I think it has to do with his alignment.

Why do you think IAI is scum?

Should when lynch you if ika flips scum?

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm not really seeing how Nero suggesting they if ika flips scum you should be suspected really affects what happens if random flips scum. Am I missing something?

I mixed up ika and randomidget in my head. The wagons are very similar and my opinions of them are identical.

[TellTaleHeart]

So....RM flips scum I should be lynched. Ika flips scum I should be lynched.

When did I say any of that? o.O

[TellTaleHeart]

Stranger hasn't gotten any scum points in my book. Care to elaborate?

Been meaning to answer this.

None of the votes are that great or well fleshed out. I would also consider him an active lurker, posting semi-frequently but not saying much while he's here.

[TellTaleHeart]

Well...you were asked who you wanted dead tomorrow if RM flips scum so you posted a bunch of my quotes wich makes it seem like you want me lynch if RM flips scum. So then DS says he didn't really see that. And you go "I got the wagons mixed up but my feelings are exactly the same." You are being super ambiguous right now so tell me why you'd do that as town?

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I doubt you do either.

[TellTaleHeart]

I got the wagons mixed up but my feelings are exactly the same.

Yes, what about this is ambiguous and what's your angle of attack on me?

[TellTaleHeart]

you were asked who you wanted dead tomorrow if RM flips scum

Nobody ever asked me that.

[TellTaleHeart]

He didn't ask me who I wanted dead tomorrow if RM flipped scum. ._.

[TellTaleHeart]

Nero, are you reading the thread?

[TellTaleHeart]

It's right there in the quote.

I said that people would go after me tomorrow if randomidget flipped scum, which I think is probably a fair prediction to make. dragon asked me to back it up, and I pulled your quotes getting ika and randomidget mixed up, and I explained why.

Now, are you going to explain why all this is scummy, or are you going to continue taking little pot shots at me?

[TellTaleHeart]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know. Possibly ABR and at least one of Peacebringer and StrangerCoug and one of Kid A and ika.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm looking over Alternate Accounts activity and ika's and I don't see a compelling reason to.

[TellTaleHeart]

The first quote is working from the hypothetical you imposed of randomidget flipping scum. The second is not.

You're working very hard to make it look like I'm contradicting myself when I'm not. Why is that?

[TellTaleHeart]

Oh, don't you dare pull back now and act like you weren't throwing shade, Nero.

Since I got here, you've had the OMGUS stick up your ass when talking to me and most of your posts to me have some kind of accusatory subtext or straight out accusations. There's Post 1133, Post 1171, Post 1174, Post 1190, Post 1304, Post 1326, Post 1330, and Post 1342. You're either directly calling me scum or you're needling me on something.

You misread the dragon conversation? Fine, I can believe that. But

you

asked me who we should lynch

if randomidget flipped scum.

Since randomidget

hasn't

flipped scum and I doubt he will, why would a vote for ika logically follow from my posts? And why would my subsequent independent reread of Alternate Account's activity be influenced by your question? You're not clueless, Nero, but you're pretending you are.

Now I don't even care what alignment you are, I'm just pissed at you because it looks like you're incapable of following a simple conversation and it's driving me fucking crazy. >:(

[TellTaleHeart]

Because you might as well draw his name out of the lurker hat. There's nothing special about him amongst lurkers except for the fact he hammered, and people are saying that he usually does that anyway.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm someone's head is going to be put on a silver plate for that special lynch, it should definitely be d3x's.

[TellTaleHeart]

*If. Not I'm.

[TellTaleHeart]

Has RM flipped scum?

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't see why a RM scum flip would change anything.

How is it taking this long to actually get to that?
F for Communication!

*sigh*


I came up with the starting point should randomidget flip scum in Post 1337 based on armchair VCA. I would expect there to be at least one scum on the Nero Cain counterwagon and I think ABR is the least town of the Nero wagoners. I would expect one or two bussers, likely later on the wagon as randomidget became a less and less salvageable slot. And I would expect one of the two vanity wagon voters [Kid A and ika] to be scum as well. There's really no principle behind the VCA I'm doing other than "scum will be kind of spread out" but I'm not even sure if that's true. I think it would be a place to start though if randomidget did flip scum.

[TellTaleHeart]

The most troublesome part of Nero's play is how the neighborhood dynamic is factoring into it's play, or rather how it's not. The early-game argument with TDA, summarized in Post 375, over what apparently happened in the neighborhood PT noticeably didn't yield a tangible

read

on TDA. The interactions with TDA, contained in Post 136, Post 375, Post 381, Post 385, Post 387, Post 391, and Post 687, are mostly concerned with defense and nitpicking at TDA's argument. Definitive reads or judgments about either d3x or TDA's alignments are completely absent and that is

not

what I would expect from someone who has an extra PT conversation going with them. Furthermore, it doesn't look like he's attempting to refine those reads at all, opting for votes on the ika policy lynch wagon and the randomidget wagon. And for all the tunneling on IAI, the case just isn't there.

As a side note, I think the overall neighborhood dynamic that Nero Cain, d3x, and TheDudeAbides have going here is very usual and counter-intuitive. The only distrust is that TDA is scum reading Nero Cain, but there's a distinct lack of synergy between the three players when it comes to reads and voting. They don't move as a block, which is what I would expect to see from 3 players who mostly trust each other who share a PT. The read from d3x on Nero Cain feels really off too, in Post 552. Since Nero Cain doesn't

really

have any solid stances, this is a really strained angle to give Nero a null-town read and I think it demonstrates a lack of skepticism on d3x's part I would expect to see in a town neighbor. I also think the reaction in Post 351 to TDA and Nero's argument is awkward because it downplays the importance of what TDA's concerns about Nero. I think it's more likely for the purpose of smoothing everything over and deflecting attention away from the goings on the neighborhood than trying to get to establish a more solid read on either Nero or TDA.

I think there's a good chance both Nero Cain and d3x are scum.

VOTE: Nero Cain

Here, let me bullet it, I guess.

[TellTaleHeart]

*

Ignoring his neighbors.

*

Snippy and defensive posting.

*

Case on IAI is skeletal.

*

Lurker wagon votes are meh.

[TellTaleHeart]

I swear to fucking God, Nero, you are not reading this thread and it's pissing me off to no end.

[TellTaleHeart]

*

Case on IAI is skeletal.

My case on IAI is much better than his case on me. If you had such an issue with my case on him why are you just now bringing it up?

The most troublesome part of Nero's play is how the neighborhood dynamic is factoring into it's play, or rather how it's not. The early-game argument with TDA, summarized in Post 375, over what apparently happened in the neighborhood PT noticeably didn't yield a tangible

read

on TDA. The interactions with TDA, contained in Post 136, Post 375, Post 381, Post 385, Post 387, Post 391, and Post 687, are mostly concerned with defense and nitpicking at TDA's argument. Definitive reads or judgments about either d3x or TDA's alignments are completely absent and that is

not

what I would expect from someone who has an extra PT conversation going with them. Furthermore, it doesn't look like he's attempting to refine those reads at all, opting for votes on the ika policy lynch wagon and the randomidget wagon.

And for all the tunneling on IAI, the case just isn't there.

There, that big enough for you?

*

Lurker wagon votes are meh.

How is my thinking that Ika is lurking it out any different than you accusing DS and SC of active lurking?

Active lurking and lurking are two different things.

[TellTaleHeart]

That first thing's not scummy. He has more of an opportunity to work out his read on me and d3x than on others.

An opportunity he's taking?

Alright, TDA, the case is what it is and that's your opinion of it, so I guess there's nothing I can do at this point for you.

[TellTaleHeart]

Forget it. I'm done.
VOTE: ika

[TellTaleHeart]

No, I'm through.

It doesn't matter what I say, everyone's insistent on ika or randomidget and I absolutely refuse to be on a wagon with StrangerCoug, dragonspawn, or d3x. I'll stomach Nero's company if that's my alternative.

[TellTaleHeart]

The Nero wagon was at 4 and there are no indications it's going further. Much less getting the requisite 9 votes.

[TellTaleHeart]

If rm isn't lynched id rather see Nero lynched than ika at this point than ika.

*Throws computer out window*

[TellTaleHeart]

There's no indication at this stage of the game that we're in a multiball game, so I think it would be a ridiculous assertion to have 2 ScumBuddies in a single Neighborhood.

I read a recent game that had 2 scumbuddies in a 3 man neighborhood: Once Upon a Winter Night.

There's apparently a precedence.

[TellTaleHeart]

Anybody up for a d3x flashwagon right now?

VOTE: d3x

[TellTaleHeart]

There were two neighborhoods of 3 players each in a game of 17. One was composed of two scumbuddies and one town and the other was all three town. I disagree with your assessment.

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't really see how that changes anything... {directed at both of you}

*whoosh*

[TellTaleHeart]

@TT- Nero asked about connecting us. I said that I don't feel that it's realistic based on the necessary makeup of the Hood. You linked a game and we disagree on the implications of the makeup of those Hoods. In line with us disagreeing, I don't feel that it impacts the game here. Thus, it doesn't change anything from my perspective.

Well I don't really give a damn about "your perspective." You were telling me that the setup pretty much forbade you and Nero being scum together and my point is that's not necessarily so.

[TellTaleHeart]

15 hours?
VOTE: ika

[TellTaleHeart]

Cute. I'm slightly drunk right now, though. What's your excuse?

[TellTaleHeart]

I can't even begin to understand this level of disconnectedness, d3x.

I'm now at the point that I'm with Naked Jogger in that I think it has to be deliberate.

[TellTaleHeart]

no, im vigging you

You claimed vig? I'll lulz-doc-protect you.

Hi DGB!!!!

So, what's this internet crush you have on kthnxbye? Please explain because I don't get it and I think he's kind of scummy.

[TellTaleHeart]

No, I was actually wrong about DS, Nero. Please try to keep up.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm not sure I follow you. What disconnectedness? I'm not being wry, I truly don't know what you're referring to or where you feel I'm exhibiting this trait.

Let's start at why you're scum reading Garmr.

Why are you scum reading Garmr?

[TellTaleHeart]

Yes, Nero "voted" again but he was already on the wagon.

I can be on at any time before deadline to change my vote if needed.

[TellTaleHeart]

I am.

[TellTaleHeart]

No

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: d3x

[TellTaleHeart]

Wow this is a bad post as it shows strange cougar not paying attention to what's happening.

It's only 3 votes. 2 of those votes were me and ds. Me and ds discussed who we thought was scum and we both thought he was most likely scum.

I don't know about Abr through.

There only being three votes doesn't mean those three votes can't be piled on insanely fast. Quality, not quantity. The most your post says to me is that, if scum is voting Nero, I should be looking at ABR. So your post really doesn't do enough to discredit mine.

OK, the Nero Cain wagon sprung up

WAY

too quickly for my liking. At least one person voting him is scum. I'll tell you that right now.

Holding off voting until I actually look at the people on him.

And this?

StrangerCoug is scum as well. The over-the-top whiteknighting of Nero before was scummy enough, but having that "read" suddenly change on such tenuous evidence (the "slip") is scum opportunism.

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH: having bad reads since #983

<3 you too Nero.

And d3x has been pushing a scum agenda since Day 1.

[TellTaleHeart]

Another thing to look at is the KidA death. Unless we have a vig in the mix, it's really odd that he was not on either lynch wagon and stuck to his DGB vote for 2 days straight. I don't see the scum motivation to off him since he wasn't the towniest looking player in this game by far. DGB needs a closer look I think.

I think the priority system behind the scum kills have been to kill the players who are unlikely to draw the protective roles, hunt town specials, or avoid leaving a trail that could lead back to them. Likely it's a combination of any or all those. That would suggest the scum team currently isn't under enough pressure to start killing their detractors. d3x fits the profile for that.

[TellTaleHeart]

It was a Hood thing.

You persistent cluelessness also fits in with the kill.

[TellTaleHeart]

It's not particularly pro-town to do so. I also find it extremely hilarious that you haven't picked up on it.

[TellTaleHeart]

What's your read on SC and what's your take on how his Nero read has progressed?

[TellTaleHeart]

Now Nero, I'm more disappointed in you for not picking up on it.

I would review Garmr's activity yesterday if I were you.

[TellTaleHeart]

@TT- You still haven't explained that.

I can do a write up later, but the short version:
*You lynched a town PR Day 1.
*You strawmanned Naked Jogger's case the next day.
*You pushed the counterwagon to scum.
*You're overconfident that you're not getting lynched because you seem to have everyone by the ears because you make long, ~pretty posts~.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm lazy and don't want to read ISO. What wrong with asking for him to restate/link?

Read page 59 again. That's all I'm going to say.

[TellTaleHeart]

Wait, didn't read d3x's big ass post, looks like he claims something, brb.

Saw that. I think it's bullshit.

[TellTaleHeart]

Nero, you're making too many assumptions.

[TellTaleHeart]

Any questions about my change of mind based on this? I'm willing to talk.

Yes, I have a question: what was the initial strong town read of Nero based on?

[TellTaleHeart]

The added bonus is that 2 of these points didn't exist Yesterday when you started accusing me of being 'disconnected'. What were your reasons then? You started off by implying that I never gave my reasons for suspecting Garmr. This is provable untrue.

Oh I don't deny that you gave reasons for suspecting Garmr. It's just that Garmr is very likely town and there are no good reasons for suspecting him.

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't buy it for a second.
VOTE: StrangerCoug

[TellTaleHeart]

Spoiler:

I have SC as Null.

SC starts with a TownRead on Nero. I find no fault in that.
He continues to TownRead him. I find no fault in that.
He defends his TownRead without dipping into a Chainsaw defense. I find no fault in that.
He Votes him after a second supposed ScumSlip. I find no fault in that.

p.edit-

@TT- You still haven't explained that.

I can do a write up later, but the short version:
{1}You lynched a town PR Day 1.
{2}You strawmanned Naked Jogger's case the next day.
{3}You pushed the counterwagon to scum.
{4}You're overconfident that you're not getting lynched because you seem to have everyone by the ears because you make long, ~pretty posts~.

1- Along with a heap of other players who had much weaker reasons to be there. I built a case and I stand behind it. He may have flipped Town, but that doesn't mean he wasn't scummy. To date, I don't think anyone has found fault in my pen case, just in my conclusions. I conceed that I led a misLynch. It happens.
2- I did no such thing, I completely ignored him. He started off Voting w/o a case. He made a circumstantial and hypocritical case on me and based off of our head butting D1, I felt that it would only clutter the thread if I engaged. I had him as a TownRead and had previously said that I was just going to ignore him. When he pointed out that I had missed a question he'd asked, I responded. He then went on to make assertions that were not true, so I continued ignoring him.
3- It would be pretty stupid to so actively and aggressively do that in my position were I Scum. Further, midget hasn't flipped yet. I already gave my thoughts on the chances that he's a ScumPR.
4- That's just poor reading. I believe that I

will

be misLynched Today. I'm fine with it and I'm putting down all of my pertinent thoughts so that they can be referred back to later if needs be.

re: my "long, ~pretty posts~"- Lol, what? Is there a point you're trying to make here? Or are you just taking shots because prefer to take my time and write in a polished manner? Look at any of my games. Show me that this is at all indicative of my alignment. Hint- it's not.

The added bonus is that 2 of these points didn't exist Yesterday when you started accusing me of being 'disconnected'. What were your reasons then? You started off by implying that I never gave my reasons for suspecting Garmr. This is provable untrue.

Finally- Are you refering to Garmr's Cop Crumb? Because I saw it and immendiately dismissed it. I've seen him FakeClaim too many times to believe any of him Claims that don't come without provocation. If he is a Cop with a Guilty on Nero, he should just come out with it. Until he does, I view it as just more AntiTown behavior.

There's an overall attitude in d3x's posting that I find scummy. It's really rigid and clenched and it's exemplified in the post above, though there are numerous examples in d3x's ISO. You can see the same thing in the killapenguin push

and

the current Garmr push. He insists that the

reasons

are all there, and they are in the most literal sense, but it hardly makes his cases ironclad like he seems to think. The closed-mindedness and the disconnectedness with what town should be in tune with suggests he's not trying to figure our alignments and the main purpose in making the cases is to shove through mislynches because he needs them to win.

[TellTaleHeart]

For Day 2, Nero seems to be a very strong town read:

Spoiler: The Foundation

Wagons today so far suck guys. More PB, or Nero votes would be great.

We are not lynching Nero Cain and I will do everything within my power to protect that from happening.

I have a hard time believing that's a thing Scumika would do. Unless something drastic changes, ika is Town.

he's going to do this regardless of alignment.

SC, why do you have/had a town read on me?

I see a town motivation for you to push for my reads in #687. You're a strong pusher in general.

If you don't vote Nero in your next post, I want a reason why.

Because I'll vote whoever the hell I want and I just don't see the Nero Cain wagon.

I still want DrippingGoofball dead but I understand the randomidget wagon better than I used to.

Not seeing Nero-scum still.

Spoiler: The reaction to Nero's first "scumslip"

*

Ignoring his neighbors.

I feel like there's very little reason to suspect either D3X or TDA beyond "OMG I'M IN A HOOD. LETS BE UNRATIONALLY PARANOID!" Even if there were scum in TDA/dx there's still 3 scum outside of the hood.

*

Case on IAI is skeletal.

My case on IAI is much better than his case on me. If you had such an issue with my case on him why are you just now bringing it up?

*

Lurker wagon votes are meh.

How is my thinking that Ika is lurking it out any different than you accusing DS and SC of active lurking?

how do you know there are four scum?

Where do you get that Nero Cain (supposedly) knows there are four scum?

I guess that 5 isn't an impossibility but I think there's kind a difference in a game that's mb with 2 sks. Being a mod what do you think of this SC?

I honestly think your number is the most likely to be right, but I generally don't bother with the numbers when they don't matter that much.

Spoiler: Still town reading Nero, even going so far as to call the wagon scummy. We're never treated to who exactly on the wagon is scummy, though.

OK, the Nero Cain wagon sprung up

WAY

too quickly for my liking. At least one person voting him is scum. I'll tell you that right now.

Holding off voting until I actually look at the people on him.

Wow this is a bad post as it shows strange cougar not paying attention to what's happening.

It's only 3 votes. 2 of those votes were me and ds. Me and ds discussed who we thought was scum and we both thought he was most likely scum.

I don't know about Abr through.

There only being three votes doesn't mean those three votes can't be piled on insanely fast. Quality, not quantity. The most your post says to me is that, if scum is voting Nero, I should be looking at ABR. So your post really doesn't do enough to discredit mine.

The level of whiteknighting is ridiculous and uncalled for given the circumstances anyway. Even ignoring that, SC absolutely swore up and down that Nero was town and the thing that apparently changes that is a "scum slip" that you have to tilt your head just right and squint to see.

That doesn't add up. The Nero town read never existed and the vote is ridiculously opportunistic.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'd vote SC! Like him, Flubber and ABR have been super useless this game.

Do it. dragonspawn is a terrible vote anyway.

[TellTaleHeart]

Explain how my town read on Nero never existed. Reads can change, even at the drop of a hat.

Bullshit.

The only "hat" that dropped was the circumstantial, sketchy reason to conveniently join a quick wagon. If your mind was that dead set on Nero being town Post 1672 was unlikely to change your mind

that

quickly because there's ambiguity in the interpretation of the post. You could argue that it's a scum slip and that Nero

knows

randomidget is town or you could argue that Nero is simply making the statement from the mindset that randomidget is town by virtue of being the counterwagon to scum.

I could maybe believe it if it shook your read, but a complete reversal of your previous read in that short amount of time doesn't fit with the confidence level expressed in the previous town read. In other words, the Nero read never existed because you made it up. If I had to guess, it was for the purpose of whiteknighting someone who would likely draw fire, but that's a question best left for post game.

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: d3x

[TellTaleHeart]

Scum Garmr town reads DS 'cause he knows its town but makes up some bunk about liking what he's saying in the hood.

No, no, no

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: d3x

No I don't want to vote dex I just Had a dream I was dreaming of this game lol.

I know. I wanted to trick you into thinking you were dreaming. Sadly, didn't seem to work.

Actually, I can see Nero Cain and randomidget not being scum together if I'm wrong about my reads quite easily. It's not

LIKELY

, but it's

POSSIBLE

.

Yeah why would you have them as scum together, your reason for voting Nero is a slip that he know RM is town?

Make a scumslip on purpose to give randomidget town cred? I'm not exactly here to predict the Mafia's actions, I Am Innocent.

So, to review:
You reverse the rock-solid town read on Nero on a theory that Nero

fabricated a

fake

scum slip

to give his buddy

randomidget

, of all people, towncred?

This is absolutely unbelievable.

VOTE: StrangerCoug

[TellTaleHeart]

Why are you so convinced that that hood is all town but there has to be scum in my hood?

You. Are. Making. Too. Many. Assumptions.

[TellTaleHeart]

There will be hell to pay for those that are ignoring ABRscum right now.

StrangerCoug might as well be claiming scum in the thread right now and all you want to talk about is ABR?

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't really see why the hood interactions between you and DS are some state secret.

Nero, I have faith in you. You can figure this out.

[TellTaleHeart]

There will be hell to pay for those that are ignoring ABRscum right now.

StrangerCoug might as well be claiming scum in the thread right now and all you want to talk about is ABR?

Maybe if you explained it in such a way that even a cretin would understand...

SC reversed the Nero read on a dime and now he's telling a ridiculous lie as to why.

[TellTaleHeart]

[TellTaleHeart]

Do you really think the ika wagon was all town?

if not who were the bussers?

I wouldn't be all that surprised it if was all town. If there were any bussers, my money goes on kthnxsbye.

[TellTaleHeart]

Depends. Can you hurry up and stop trolling me?

[TellTaleHeart]

Nero can take a hint, can you?

He has given no evidence of doing so thus far.

[TellTaleHeart]

[TellTaleHeart]

[TellTaleHeart]

It's obvious nero fake claiming who ever is voting abr now is pretty much guaranteed scum

Yes to the first half of this sentence, no to the second.

[TellTaleHeart]

Garmr, I actually do think there's a decent chance of ABR being scum, Nero's trolling notwithstanding.

[TellTaleHeart]

Also Nero's lack of activity day1 is consistent with a PR keeping his head down.

Oh yeah?
Why did he switch to SC in the middle of the day? Why did he not say his "results" for night 1? And what the hell is a "neighborhood cop" anyway?

[TellTaleHeart]

Nero, I'm going to be really resentful of you if you strongarm me into an ABR vote with a troll claim.

[TellTaleHeart]

Well Nero, you got what you wanted. If ABR doesn't flip scum I'm putting you on ignore for the rest of the game.

And if ABR does flip town, do not automatically go after Nero tomorrow. d3x and StrangerCoug are still scum.

[TellTaleHeart]

DGB, I think I understand your hatred for neighborhoods now.

[TellTaleHeart]

I think I would have had a fighting chance if I could have used my PR and made the NK being the only scum left.

That kind of would've defeated the purpose of your role. XD

[TellTaleHeart]

In order to make the Rolecop significant without overpowering it, I tried to only include roles that would make sense for the town as either alignment. In essence, the Rolecop could verify a claim or look into questionable play, but could not incriminate someone off a lucky check.

Barring a scum fake claim, there's really no way I was going to get any incriminating evidence off my night action. Two of the scum wouldn't have needed to fake claim at all for me to "confirm" them. I was further gated by only being able to use my action on even-nights.

My role was pretty much useless.

[TellTaleHeart]

DGB, I think I understand your hatred for neighborhoods now.

I win! I win!

I'd say I hate neighborhoods (because I do), but it's really only because I can't stand the way some people handle them. I was hoping their inclusion would be okay and more bearable this game since I didn't include daytalk.

The reason I said that is because it didn't really make the set up more fun and was just kind of there to add in a stupid layer of speculation that didn't need to be there.

Neighborhoods don't make the game any more fun and really aren't necessary.

[TellTaleHeart]

What annoys me through is the pathetic cowards that say things from the dead then act like nothing was said.

Most of the mean things I said about Nero in the dead thread were in the wake of ABR's flip and was due to the cop gambit. I was mad at the time but have since gotten over it. I think this is a common phenomenon with people who talk smack in dead PT's.