NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[T S O]

starting without me is so rude

[T S O]

I'm the only member of the original Delicious Mafia scumteam playing? This is so disappointing.

[T S O]

I'm skimming pages pretty quickly but everything looks like trash so far.

[T S O]

I'm vaguely townreading ika, tex and Shinobi from the first page.

[T S O]

I'm skimming pages pretty quickly but everything looks like trash so far.

Well so do you but we make do.

it's been too long xx

[T S O]

VOTE: Lapsa

This is actually kinda serious.

[T S O]

I forgive you, Aero.

Also, one request: Nosferatu, can you spoiler your signature or something? It honestly makes my eyes bleed tears of pain.

[T S O]

yeah wow there's definitely scum on that red wagon

[T S O]

No, there's no excuse for putting a shitwagon to L-1 12 pages in, when both Boon and ika are playing.

[T S O]

You've already called Boon scum, you forgot him.

I'd normally point this out as a scumtell but it's literally a nulltell with you.

[T S O]

You're trying to create this ridiculous false dichotomy that in order not to have long days, we need to hammer someone as soon as possible, which is fucking ridiculous. There is little to no information in the game so far, except that most people who voted redd are idiots, and that plays into scum's hands even more than long days. I actually agree that overly long days are detrimental, but the way you are going about combating this is incredibly stupid.

If you have an issue with this game taking a while you should replace out. That's the nature of Larges. There are plenty of games in the Mini queue which will facilitate you.

[T S O]

On that note, Lapsa is looking scummy as fuck.

[T S O]

Lapsa's thought processes just don't exist. He calls SW confscum on p2, but votes Salamence, and explains this by saying he ...doesn't think he'll get a policy speedlynch? He won't vote his top scumread because he doesn't think he'll immediately get them lynched? Words cannot do justice to how awful an answer this is.

After that, he agrees that Salamence is playing poorly, says he got that feeling before he voted him, and ...unvotes Salamence? What the fuck?

There's literally nothing good in his ISO - his last two posts were a naked vote of Nosferatu, and a naked unvote of Nosferatu. What's the point of voting someone if you don't explain it and unvote almost immediately?

[T S O]

So, SW and Lapsa as scum? Fantastic.

[T S O]

I'm not going to be flexing my muscles for a while, really, so you can all make your inconsequential posts and push each other a bit before I step in.

[T S O]

Of course!

[T S O]

Yes, yes, we know SW is scum.

[T S O]

Also, people who are highly suspect, like Mahonster and Nosferatu, calling SW town makes me even more uncomfortable with the idea.

[T S O]

I don't know what Fox is like as scum, since he posted like three times in Masquerade, but I think I have a vague townread on him for the sheer badness of his play so far. He doesn't really seem interested in looking good, which is ...kinda town? But really not something anyone else should try emulating.

[T S O]

Ika is town, Shinobi could be anything but at least he's capable of coherency.

[T S O]

Sala is ...probably town, but I am not particularly confident on that. It's really not a stable townread.

[T S O]

In fact, make Shinobi town for now, he did some good stuff early.

[T S O]

I'm assuming singleball, so Red-thing is probably not scum. Confession: I literally haven't read a single post of his.

[T S O]

Lapsa is still probably scum, Ozgin is probably town.

[T S O]

Why did you break that up into tons of posts when you only needed one reads post?

It's a playstyle, dear. I suggest you try making some reads, in one post or many, rather than asking stupid questions.

Well, "red is probably not scum," is more accurate. Still, why?

Well, you can deduce red-town from things like scum pushing it, as well as many dubious people on it with dubious votes... but mainly because I read the game and remembered none of his posts. If he's that unmemorable, it's highly unlikely that the reasons people have for voting him are shit.

[T S O]

No, your shaky reasons for voting redd make you suspect.

Silver's towngame and scumgame are quite different, so meta is an effective tool. Nacho and ABR caught her using it here, for example. Disdain of meta might be the new cool kid, but meta definitely has its place. At any rate, you've just been shown that Silver has replaced out as scum in the past, so regardless of your opinion on meta, I don't understand why you feel it would make her town until lategame, unless you are simply incredibly naive.

[T S O]

Well then, I'm incredibly naïve. TSO can you point out the main differences between Silver's scum/town game?

Sounds more wooden, and unnatural anger.

People can manipulate their meta. Easily. I would fully expect Silver to be trying something different this game.

This is basic WIFOM, but I'll take the bait.

Even if SW-scum had decided to mix up her scum game, and I haven't seen anything recently that would stimulate her to do so, it's one thing to say "hmm, I need to change my scum meta here" and another to actually implement it. Especially since she began to feel pressure extremely early in the game, at around page 4. The further down the rabbit hole she went, the more likely she was to revert to type and scumplays that she would instinctively make. So, I can't definitively prove that SW was playing to her scum meta, but I can list a series of factors which make it significantly more likely than not that she was.

[T S O]

It's hard to tell whether Nosferatu is town or the cheekiest scumfuck ever when he makes posts like #430.

[T S O]

Can we halve the prod time or something, Aero? Because a lot of people aren't playing at all, and if you don't take action, it will continue to deteriorate.

[T S O]

Lapsa is referring to his RVS post, where he called SW confscum but didn't vote him.

[T S O]

I like Lapsa's vote? Which is worrying, seeing as I have hated -every single- post he has made apart from that.

[T S O]

I'm assuming singleball, so Red-thing is probably not scum. Confession: I literally haven't read a single post of his.

I don't understand that assumption, or why that makes you think Red is probably not Scum, especially when you haven't a single post of his.

I always assume singleball until proven otherwise, and with SW-slot pushing redd, it makes the latter town.

[T S O]

TSO sounds scum

Can you push this a bit? Because I'm pretty sure this is just a reaction to me calling you scum.

[T S O]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TSO

This is scum.

[T S O]

I'd make a barbed comment about either replacing out or not, but that wouldn't be very nice of me.

[T S O]

I don't make it easy for scum to mislynch me. If I do act scummy or whatever and they jump on me like that, I will make sure it is pointed out. I'm not trying to brag or say I'm some great player or anything. I just have gotten better at recognizing when scum is trying to fabricate a scumread because I've had it done to me before and have done it myself as scum many times. And one of the things I would most definitely do as scum, is selectively point out the things about me that T S O did here to paint me as scum. Now, town can do that too but it just feels like a scum push from T S O. I'd be interested to hear his response to all of this now.

Firstly, just call me TSO. The spaces were required in my username, but there's really no need.

When you say "If I act scummy and people attack me for it, I'll point it out", this sounds like another way of saying that you have no problem OMGUS'ing if you have to. I can remember exactly one time when you replaced out. That was Team Mafia. When Nacho caught you early, you replaced out. In NY 180, when you were universally townread as scum, you did not replace out early. So the pattern is that you don't like early pressure as scum. Your anger in this game has also been irrational. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact - there isn't basis for it. Ika also provided scum meta of you replacing out, I have scum meta of you replacing out, you seem to be faking emotions for unknown reasons. So when I see you come under pressure, fake anger and replace out, it's pretty basic logic to conclude you're probably scum.

I think, if you are town, you should probably take a look at the people voting with you. I've been pushing Lapsa-scum for a while, and I've explained it. His scumread of me magically appeared out of nowhere in response to this, and he certainly hasn't explained it. You have GrayFoxxx, who is apparently a decent town player, and who I know lurks and plays mediocrely as scum. He is lurking and playing mediocrely here. I have no idea what Shinobi is doing, I don't think Shinobi knows what Shinobi is doing.

This whole thing feels like you're particularly annoyed that I'm calling you scum, and you really want to me to be scum. That's understandable, but it's not going to catch many scum.

[T S O]

Although TSO is looking kinda suspicious

Why do you think this? As far as I can see, I'm nearly the only one who's given reads, nearly the only one actually trying to get my scumreads lynched. In fact, I'm nearly the only one playing the game. So I really don't get this.

[T S O]

If TSO of all people was lynched today, that would be suuuper interesting.

Don't get your hopes up, my dear.

[T S O]

I mean, the things you are using to call me scum are incredibly tenuous. You link a game that I barely played before also replacing out of as evidence that I've seen you replace out as town? Then you link another game where you've replaced out as scum that I wasn't in? And this is why you're voting me? Please.

[T S O]

VOTE: GreyFoxxxx

[T S O]

kill it with fire

[T S O]

Mainly, I dislike TSO's thinking that RedFF is Town based on his assumption that this game is singleball. Reading rather quickly up to this point, I don't think TSO has responded to me at all about this... Unless I have missed something, I don't understand why he would avoid me, and I do start to wonder when players are avoiding me, or deflecting, or trying to change the subject. Honestly, I can be as aggressive as I want to be to pry apart that crate, but I would rather TSO show me in-game respect by engaging me personally, in a manner a pro-Town player would.

It's just the way I play - it makes it simpler for me, and it usually works out well, like here. It's not alignment indicative, since I'd say it even if I was scum, and I just didn't see a need to address it with you because I don't feel like changing my mind on it and getting sidetracked is oh-so-easy.

More pressure votes on TSO would be a good thing.

People can do what they want, but I'd really rather it be something productive. Hint: vote Grey.

[T S O]

In particular, it means that on day 1, people can't doubtcast legitimate attacks on scum by saying that the attacker could be on another scumteam, which forces the attacker to relent and the pressure to drop. Lynching scum is lynching scum, and if it -is- multiball, we should be encouraging the scumteams to play each other offensively, and if it's singleball, then it's still correct.

[T S O]

Shinobi; you might think that my case on Lapsa is weak, which is somewhat true, but #377 is the shittiest attempt at a rebuttal ever. He literally cannot justify his thought processes multiple times. Even if he's just atrociously bad, his thoughts should still be clear in his head and explainable. That he can't do it speaks extremely poorly towards his alignment.

[T S O]

I actually didn't bother remarking on it since I thought it was so bad, but when he quoted it like it was somehow legitimate...

[T S O]

Has Zebulin said anything in this game?

No, and presumably the mod is doing something about that. In the meantime, do you have any reads?

[T S O]

Although TSO is looking kinda suspicious

Why do you think this? As far as I can see, I'm nearly the only one who's given reads, nearly the only one actually trying to get my scumreads lynched. In fact, I'm nearly the only one playing the game. So I really don't get this.

You are most certainly not the only one giving reads. You aren't doing anything more than a lot of people are.

I don't have an interest in debating with you whether I am the most pro-town player in the game or not. It'll happen anyway. In the meantime, didn't you think I looked suspicious? I'm still not clear why that was.

[T S O]

I have no idea what Shinobi is doing, I don't think Shinobi knows what Shinobi is doing.

Rofl.

didn't answer question, do you know what you're doing?

know you are more engaged in your scum games because in 185 you were town and barely played. Although you were killed off early there.

I think it's worth addressing this - I occasionally go through periods of apathy where I'm inactive as either alignment. 95% of the time, I'm active as town - see here and here.

[T S O]

EBWOP: boon pls

[T S O]

I'm willing to bet anything ika is town - I'd really appreciate if we could just run with that.

[T S O]

Any chance you'd be my hero and throw your vote on Grey while you catch up?

[T S O]

I'm willing to bet anything ika is town - I'd really appreciate if we could just run with that.

Why?

The short version of it is that I can read ika pretty close to perfectly and I'm fairly sure this is no exception.

Shinobi; you might think that my case on Lapsa is weak, which is somewhat true, but #377 is the shittiest attempt at a rebuttal ever. He literally cannot justify his thought processes multiple times. Even if he's just atrociously bad, his thoughts should still be clear in his head and explainable. That he can't do it speaks extremely poorly towards his alignment.

hell yeah it's atrociously bad and unexplainable. I find it extremely poor that you can't spot that tiny imitation of Sala's play

unexplained my justifications repeatedly yet you still can't figure out rocket science hence vote on you

I advise re-writing this in an attempt to make it vaguely legible.

Any chance you'd be my hero and throw your vote on Grey while you catch up?

wtf is that shit supposed to be?

It's basic English. Take a picture.

[T S O]

But seriously, I have no interest in wasting my time attempting to decipher the meaning of what exactly "unexplaining justifications" is.

[T S O]

I doubt I'll be talking much more than I am at present.

[T S O]

Ika is playing to his town meta. Ika's meta tell is really reliable. Yes, this could be the game he finally attempts to subvert it. No, it's not likely at all.

[T S O]

I doubt I'll be talking much more than I am at present.

Makes me feel you've got something to hide, to be brutally honest, friend.

If someone was asking me questions, and I started to clam up, what the hey would you think?

I feel you're misconstruing what my words were. I feel I'm talking enough. As it is, I'm probably the highest poster in the game right now. For instance, I have significantly more posts than you.

[T S O]

Actually, that's not true, we're essentially the same, but my point remains.

[T S O]

If I have more posts than you, it likely means I'm speaking my mind more than you're speaking yours.

The lines of communication are entirely open - for example, I'm happy to discuss a wide range of subjects, like why Grey is a great vote. If you don't want to communicate, it isn't my fault.

[T S O]

What exactly do you want to know? I'm not somebody who will lay every single piece of information out; if you should know it, or you could know it but you're too lazy to look for it, I'm really not the person you should be calling.

[T S O]

I also don't know why you're feeling uncomfortable about me being like this, because I have every reason to be helpful and pleasant as scum.

[T S O]

Lapsa vote gray with me.

so be it

VOTE: grayfoxxxx

and I'm not scum

I don't understand why you were reluctant to vote Gray until Shinobi asked, and then you happily did so.

@Wake @Creede
This was what my post 537 was about:

Although TSO is looking kinda suspicious, I really don't think he should be lynched over other people (like nos). For now I'll unvote, but I'm not too sure about voting for TSO.

UNVOTE: nosferatu

It was a half joke but it still reads as bad to me. Like how does your hesitation in voting for TSO translate to you unvoting Nosferatu? You even state that you think Nos is a better lynch. It doesn't feel right that you'd unvote Nos immediately after making that post.

This is a good post.

Why are people so hard on Grayfoxxxx, Nosferatu (I'm a little guilty there I guess), and Creede but are letting Anna skate by on arguably much worse posts?

Foxxx is playing to his scum meta and is actually competent. Anna is newer.

TSO vote on me is OMGUS.
Says I'm townie
I sheep wolf, and vote TSO
TSO votes me.

OMGUS is a lovely term to throw around, but it only applies when there's no legitimate reason for the vote back.

TSO can try to faceroll me all he wants. I'm VT, what good would it do, if he is town?

Speaking of which, why did you claim so early?

grayfoxx is bad but his vt claim seemed genuine, could still lynch, seems like hes posting a bit more now

This reads a lot like "I don't want to be incriminated by voting Gray but I'd love to do it."

I'm not a fan of claiming too early, unless your pretty much bang on to be lynched. He claimed well before votes were drawing onto him.

I'm not saying that he is scum based on that, I played in a game with Gray a month or so ago, and I think he got the same attention, and in the end he was policy lynched due to it being near the deadline.

Which game are you talking about? I don't remember playing with you in the last month or so, or being policy lynched at all.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62705

My mistake, it wasn't policy lynched, you used your role to duel with Kaboose and lost.

Oh yea that was fun.

That game was alot smaller.

I'll repeat why my style is different:

I want to add variance to my meta, since a lot of people invest in it.

Larger game, and seemingly top notch players across the board. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn through observation, and that entails not being my usual active self.

I have no idea why you feel you can't observe and play at the same time. They're really not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, you'll probably observe more if you play more. It seems suspicious to me that this "learning through observation" actually means you playing to your scum meta, and doing nothing.

I like Nos' 737.

Really? It reads like he's hedging every read he has.

[T S O]

"This looks town, I guess, but I'm not really sure when I look at this, mm, yeah, I've wrote a full sentence on a read which means absolutely nothing!"

[T S O]

I hope we can all agree that this is the most nonsensical scumread ever.

[T S O]

2. Why would Ozgin be worried about TSO at all if Ozgin was town? Only scum need to be worried.

This is wrong. Town have plenty of reasons to be worried.

To reiterate, I don't like how players auto-hammer when a player is at L-1 [both ika and Boons].

It's a horrible quirk of their playstyles, but it's still null.

[T S O]

Not a fan of frogger's opening. The game is kinda stagnating. Grey has tunnelled back into his burrow. We'll burn you out before long.

[T S O]

I also feel like saying that Aeronaut seems like the sort of guy who would play a straight enough game. He's not a crazy mod. It's likeliest that it's singleball, but it might be multiball. But I can nearly guarantee it won't be multiball + SK.

[T S O]

I'm tempted to townread red for insulting SilverWolf because he's likelier to not give a fuck as town rather than scum.

[T S O]

Nowhere, it just popped into my head. There's not really much of anything it could stem from given the relative quietness of the game right now.

[T S O]

The thing is, though, that when he was actually being pushed he didn't insult you. It came after. Which I think lends itself to being a more genuine thought, rather than anger that he'd been caught as scum.

[T S O]

Off-topic, but Ozgin's gambit didn't actually get the credit it deserved in 180. Like, it was potentially fucking brilliant. He would have cemented himself as town while removing the SK and romped home.

It was such a pity it didn't work.

[T S O]

SW is probably town, honestly, the role has high town utility.

[T S O]

Red, Creede and I are in a hood. However, I didn't post in it pregame and only remembered yesterday, so nothing at all has been said there.

[T S O]

Wake, your read format isn't economic. There's no point stating everything someone says, before asking them things about it, before then restating the questions after that. Cut out at least one section. In fact, cutting out two wouldn't be particularly detrimental.

[T S O]

I have never been a fan of Neighbourhoods and believe there is zero town utility in keeping them hidden.

[T S O]

We definitely have a positive relationship, Wake, but when we're playing it's different. I wasn't implying your post was shit, I'm saying there seemed to be extraneous information in there, but if that's how you feel comfortable doing them, then that's cool.

[T S O]

VOTE: wake

What specifically is this vote for?

[T S O]

Because it reminds me of exactly how you voted me and justified it by saying you "agreed with a post SW made" or some guff like that.

I would advise you to make your answer a good one.

[T S O]

it needs to hang so fucking badly

[T S O]

Voting Grey will buy you

oodles

of towncred. You'll get so much of it that it'll overflow onto the ground.

[T S O]

(Just in case this isn't 100% clear, I have no personal vendetta against Grey (what a guy). I simply want to see him either hung or decapitated asap.)

[T S O]

Wake, it's really time to move your vote. It is doing nothing.

[T S O]

GrayFoxxxx is a magical wagon of justice, championed by the paladin of the people, TSO. Unfortunately, nefarious ne'er-do-wells have taken it upon themselves to avert the natural course of justice and hang a (probably) innocent man, Wake88! Submit

your

name to the cause to preserve our fragile kingdom from those who would seek to destroy by voting GrayFoxxxx now!

[T S O]

It was astute of you to notice that I am, indeed, ignoring you. Your penchant seems to be pushing speedlynches, not explaining any of your votes, intermixed with moaning about how Large games have more pages than Mini pages. The clue is in the name.

Do you still feel Red is scum? Or has that worn off?

[T S O]

Boonskiies has done nothing alignment-indicative, SilverWolf is probably town, or even if scum will be caught far before the end, while Anna is basically Gray but not as incriminating.

Why do you feel any of these are remotely worthy of your vote? Especially over Gray?

[T S O]

This game feels like I'm attempting to carry a huge load all by myself, while all around people attempt to trip me, or complain that I'm showing off by carrying out this backbreaking work.

If someone could attempt to step up and help, that would be great.

[T S O]

So you think outting neighbors is pro-town even though the game we were just in proves otherwise?

I legitimately could care less about outing neighbours one way or the other.

I don't remember the outing of neighbours having a detrimental effect on town that game - it was the sheer inefficacy of the IC slot that ultimately cost us the game.

[T S O]

Actually, Wake, why did you mention Boonskiies? He's not a viable wagon, and nobody has expressed interest in voting him.

[T S O]

Indiscriminately voting any wagon which gets votes on it. Every major wagon in this game has had him on it, bar one which he couldn't vote because he had just praised the player it was on (SW). Lurking, which he has a history of doing as scum, being incompetent, which he isn't like as town, offering no reads or thoughts, probably instances of Beetlejuice too, and just being an all-round menace in general.

[T S O]

My last completed towngame, where Sala was scum, involved me and Varsoon losing at MyLo because two stubborn town players refused to change their minds. I really don't have the patience to cajole you into voting any more, Wake. Your comments about maintaining lines of communication begin to seem rather empty when I receive -no- feedback whatsoever from putting in my own time to try to make you see the light.

PEdit: That's better.

[T S O]

I feel like some of those questions are self-explanatory ("Is repeatedly voting on large wagons with no reasoning scummy?" "Yes."), but I'll respond tomorrow.

[T S O]

Lurking, which he has a history of doing as scum

I'm not sure if I've ever finished any of the 2 or 3 scum games I was in before I had to site flake last year. I was scum with you in one of them, and I was pretty active before I quit.

You posted 5 times in 1240 posts, or 49 pages. That's 1 post every 10 pages. I wouldn't call that active.

[T S O]

Also, only 2 posts actually contained content. Again, I'm not beating on you, I'm just giving the facts.

[T S O]

This is also why I find your "changing meta" argument bizarre - you want to go from active as town and lurking as scum to lurking as both? Really?

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

[T S O]

You can discredit or interpret any meta any way you want, Gray. I've given my interpretation of it.

[T S O]

Four posts in one stretch, a week with nothing, a prod dodge, quit. Did you spend more time posting or not posting, hmm?

[T S O]

To me, just looking at your latest posts, it feels like you're wanting me to change my vote onto Grayfoxxxx.

Yes.

You know he jumped onto my wagon without much of a good reason, so it just feels like you're trying to capitalize on your perception of how I feel about it, thinking I would be easily swayed towards voting for him based on the wagon that is on me at the present moment.

Also yes.

When I asked you why I should move my vote to Grayfoxxxx, since I only had my vote on someone at L-10, I responded by asking you why you tell me my vote is doing nothing, while suggesting I move vote to someone else. Then I point out that, like me, Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 also have their singular votes on various players that are only at L-10. Strangely, it seems you misunderstood that, and responded by asking me why those three are 'worthy' of my vote, when I never spoke of that at all.

I have misread things before. I may even misread them again in the future. It might be rare, but it does happen.

I'm asking you why you want me to move my vote, when you have not asked Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 to move theirs. Why ask me, and me first?

Because you're on and posting, and they are not?

When I see my wagon, and note that Grayfoxxxx was the last one to vote for me, I do wonder that even more. Lastly, on top of perhaps subtly flattering me about who's 'worthy' of me vote, you then say you don't have the patience to cajole me into voting any more, and cajoling itself means to persuade someone to do something by sustained coaxing or flattery.

This is you reading far too much into word choice - I do not use my words that precisely. Even if I did, why would I openly tell you I was trying to flatter you into voting? It seems a pretty bizarre idea given that I just recently criticised your reads format.

And in the interim, you seem to be really trying to convince people to vote for Grayfoxxxx.

It's a curious quirk of my playstyle - I try to get people to vote for who I believe are scum.

[T S O]

I also think it's a relevant point that Gray has been under sustained pressure in this game, which merits him posting to defend himself, while this never materialised in Masquerade. For example, 8 of his posts have all came since I started pushing harder for his lynch an hour or so ago. By default, that will make him post more.

[T S O]

#538 and #1078 are identical, and #413 was me forming early reads with very little information, before you started your wagon-hopping etc. What's your point?

[T S O]

I have no idea why I am discussing my scumread of someone with them, since it's obviously a futile exercise, and I've somehow got drawn into it, which is naive of me.

You say you're posted more here than you did as scum in Masquerade.
I say you've had to because of sustained pressure here which wasn't present in Masquerade.

[T S O]

I think you give me too much credit - my means are rather simple, when it comes to getting lynches I want. They are also extremely effective.

I'm going to bed, I keep getting pulled back.

[T S O]

Yes, Gray, my attack on you is OMGUS, given that you attacked me... wait that was ages ago.

Don't fling around pretty terms if you're going to blatantly use them incorrectly.

[T S O]

I also disagree on your flip-flopping point, but then again I've disagreed with almost everything you've said to date.

What exactly about Wake makes you think he's scum, again? I feel you never really addressed that.

[T S O]

I'm here.

[T S O]

The last time Gray voted a wagon, it was because he has "a crush on Sala and was sheeping him." Which is bullshit, but anyway.
Now that he's voted Ozgin, I am sure there will be a new and better excuse.

This is literally textbook scumhunting.

[T S O]

I would ask him why he's doing it, but I know there won't be an answer. I might ask people to vote him, but that would be manipulation and flattery or some rubbish.

[T S O]

Out of Internet for next 3 days, as I was for a day or two before this.

I will hopefully have sporadic access. Gray is pretty obvious scum. Ozgin was the town counter wagon. Please just do me the favour of reading Gray's ISO before deciding you don't want to vote. He has voted everything that has even the slightest chance of being lynched. The one and only original thought he has had this game was his scum read of me, which happens to coincide with me being a vocal and powerful detractor of him. Everything is right there in front of you.

[T S O]

I fucking hate phone posting, I can never convey my message with any sort of authority on it.

I agree with frogged - town reading Nosf for the reaction. It's irrelevant if it's multiball though.

[T S O]

Ozgin's posting is also town around p50, but whatever.

Whenever I see GrayFoxxxx and town in the same sentence, I feel nauseous. Please, can we just skip to the part where we lynch him and he flips scum? Today, not d4?

[T S O]

Quaroath, some of your reasoning for the Ozgin vote was pretty off. Didn't anyone but me notice this?

[T S O]

I'm really unhappy with the way this game is going already.

I'm reading through but wanted to quote this as it mirrors my entire thoughts on the game.

[T S O]

I'm really unhappy with the way this game is going already.

I'm reading through but wanted to quote this as it mirrors my entire thoughts on the game.

So what would you change? How do you want this game to go?

everything

some fucking unity would be nice, and people playing would be nice too.

[T S O]

My complaint list runs longer, but you'll be hearing about it in due course.

[T S O]

Wake - I am about to show you a magical power of mine. I am a psychic - I can tell you something about yourself that I should have no way of knowing.

You do not proofread your posts.

Now, I'm a psychic, so I just know that to be true. But if someone was reading this game and they're not a psychic? Then they could still know. It wouldn't be difficult. All they would have to would be to look at the post where you saw that three people disagreed with you, and decided they were all scum, together, while you also preached that this game could be singleball or multiball and we shouldn't make assumptions.

I've completely ignored you since then because I haven't had access. But even if I had access, I would still be ignoring you, because you're way too stubborn to fucking listen once you decide something even when it's clearly wrong. You've decided that I attempted to "cajole" you into voting Gray, and because I used "cajole" instead of any other word, it was manipulation of the highest degree, and I must be scum!

Just please look at your current view of the gamestate. You are townreading GrayFoxxxx because no-one else is doing it, and more specifically because I am openly doing the opposite. You think I am scum because I was trying to "manipulate" you into voting Gray when I issued a broad appeal for Gray votes,

humorously,

and then talked to you because you were online and other people were not. Let me quote you on your mindset at that time:

Curious, and hyper-alert to manipulation

Does it really seem surprising that when you are "hyper-alert" for something, you find it? Does it? Because some of the evidence against Gray is pretty fucking good. I'm done arguing meta, I'll even cede the point though I don't feel like it, just to emphasise other aspects of my scumread. Namely, the way he votes

anyone

with a chance of being lynched. Blatantly. Red. Me. Wake. Ozgin. Anna. And never, not once, has there been half-legitimate justification for these votes. The only one I've pushed him on was my own, to which the answer was that he was sheeping SW, or some other rubbish. There hasn't even been that for the others. Every time he does it I sigh and complain and wonder how the fuck are you defending him when his opportunism and need to stay alive at all costs is so open and blatant.

I'm competent. Shinobi is competent. SilverWolf is competent. When you disagree with a competent player, and then another disagrees with you, and then another disagrees with you after that, your conclusion

should not be

that they are all scum. Seriously. You lose face
pretty fast when you come out with this rubbish.

I won't be talking to you again,

I'm too scared to try manipulating you

wasting my time isn't something I plan to do any time soon. It's really not too late to sit down, realise you are playing like a fucking idiot and vote Gray, but I have never seen you change your mind prompted by a personal intervention and I doubt I will now.

[T S O]

Hello gm!

I also think red is town, by the way. He just gives no fucks and it's so apparent in his posts.

[T S O]

I am not giving you bile, I'm giving you my opinion that what you are doing this game is moronic. Doing that is, though I doubt you want to hear this, indicative of me being town. I'm not letting our relationship get in the way of the game. I can call your play bad and you bad this game without insulting you - it is a boundary I will cross to play at my maximum. As far as I am concerned, I have made my point succinctly - you went out with the intention to find someone manipulating you, you decided it was me, and ran with it.

I just said I didn't want to get back into this, but here I am. Short point: if I was scum, and this was a legitimate point, you know what I'd do? I'd break your case into segments and quotewall back at you and no-one would read halfway through it. Then everyone would dismiss it as town v town. It is the most efficient manner of breaking an attack.

That I am focused on getting a lynch I want, rather than being bogged down by suspicion, should again speak volumes about my alignment,

but I am getting tired of pointing to reasons why I am town when they never seem to get through to you.

[T S O]

Sala seemed pretty town.

[T S O]

That I am focused on getting a lynch I want, rather than being bogged down by suspicion, should again speak volumes about my alignment,

but I am getting tired of pointing to reasons why I am town when they never seem to get through to you.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

HI EVERYONE

ESPECIALLY TSO

I AM READING NOW

!!!!!!!!!!!

[T S O]

I'm waiting for you to call me town so we can hunt scum together and enjoy shenanigans!

[T S O]

that was a really shit jump onto boon

[T S O]

I was fairly sure you were incredibly deluded town up until now, but that vote literally goes against all the morals you're preaching about easy lynches. It makes no sense with your mindset. Boon has done nothing. That's null. He admits it himself. Meanwhile, when I press Gray, you call me scum rather than address the wagon-hopping which is a core tenet of my scumread on him. Even after I directly linked it and explained, you returned to the meta argument which I'd dropped because ...discredit time?

Can you explain why specifically you are voting Boon, hmm?

[T S O]

TSO and who ever else says I'm not giving reads for any of my voted is lying.

If you can quote these from your ISO, and it is not "sheep", I will abandon my scumread of you completely.

[T S O]

We have 4 days to get a lynch. If you are voting a wagon that has 1-2 votes, either make an impassioned plea or get off it. Preferably the latter.

[T S O]

Well, I quoted five votes, and you were able to respond to three. At least twice, you had no reason for your votes. Normally, once would be enough to crucify someone, but you're a special case. I've only skimmed your case, but I know at least one of your explanations is likely bullshit. Maybe more.

[T S O]

If I can prove that you have voted three times with no demonstrable reasoning other than made-up rubbish, I expect to see you dead within the day.

[T S O]

I was fairly sure you were incredibly deluded town up until now, but that vote literally goes against all the morals you're preaching about easy lynches. It makes no sense with your mindset. Boon has done nothing. That's null. He admits it himself. Meanwhile, when I press Gray, you call me scum rather than address the wagon-hopping which is a core tenet of my scumread on him. Even after I directly linked it and explained, you returned to the meta argument which I'd dropped because ...discredit time?

Can you explain why specifically you are voting Boon, hmm?

Boonskiies is lurking this Day 1. In Freshwater Frenzy Day 1 he made 91 posts and was Town.

He did something once as town. This isn't demonstrable meta. This is a once-off incident. Maybe he used a certain word here and as scum, so he must be scum here too!

I am going to thoroughly enjoy nailing your meta case to the wall.

Seriously...I have 340 posts! What's the scum meta you guys say I always have? I lurk out when I'm scum. HAVE I LURKED AT ALL HERE?!?

Way to avoid discussing his latest Scum-meta, man.

Meta isn't the be-all-end-all when it comes to alignment. How do we know you'd do that as Scum if you were Scum this game? We don't. That's just fact. What, if you're Scum you're not capable of changing things up and pointing at past Scum-play and saying that's how you would be as Scum?

Boonskiies lurking as town.

[T S O]

That's your case, dead in the water. Now you can go back to pushing me. You're welcome.

[T S O]

Gray, you keep using words which you don't understand and it bothers me. For example, "undeniable". You used it incorrectly, because the shitty rubbish responses you gave aren't "undeniable". I will personally demolish them before I kick your rolling scum carcass off the gallows.

[T S O]

Another example of you twisting evidence to fit a scumread because you are bound and determined to see me as scum. Basically, EVERY THING I do in this game to YOU is something I'd do as scum and you can't see it ANY other way.

Quoted for fucking truth.

[T S O]

Let me clarify this.

You quoted Boonskiies saying he lurks as scum.
I just gave you meta where he lurked as town.
You do not have a response to this so far.

I am not bandying words with you - provide a response to this or remove your vote.

[T S O]

You're not paying attention, are you? Or is it something else?

Why are these little addendums constantly added to your posts? What specifically are you trying to imply here? What master plan have I set in motion by defending someone who is not playing and is an easy mislynch? Someone who my scumteam mislynched in the original Delicious Mafia?

Say what you mean, but please, stop implying that everything I do is all part of my grand plan to manipulate everyone.

[T S O]

why do I waste my time talking to you

[T S O]

Gray, it was this magical thing called "humour". Do you honestly believe that you showing your ability to click the quote button would cause me to back off? Seriously?

You make a correct point - I haven't had the pleasure of shitting on your response yet. I'll get to it tonight.

[T S O]

Remember when he called himself powerful for starting my wagon? Does that sound towny?

boom, he whips out the scumtell

you got me there Gray!

[T S O]

I call myself powerful because I have a large ego. It's fed by the way I'm consistently right.

[T S O]

Firebringer and I share a neighbourhood. Darling, do you want to reveal your reason for scumreading me, or will I?

[T S O]

gm please save me from these people. also don't be scum.

[T S O]

Gray, that was sarcasm. Jesus fucking Christ, that was basic obvious sarcasm.

[T S O]

Wake, I thought Boonskiies was scum? Did that read evaporate again?

[T S O]

I am easily ignoring you and will continue to do so - I feel much better when I do not engage with you. It inevitably leads to me scratching my head at how dense your arguments are.

[T S O]

I'm posting too much and it's all jibes. Give me a few hours until I feel like addressing Gray.

[T S O]

okay I'm done being nice

[T S O]

Wake, you can fuck off bringing our outside of game relationship into this. You are a fucking idiot this game. You accuse me of ignoring points when you sit there and ignore my Gray case? I drop meta and emphasise another aspect. You talk about meta. I further emphasise that aspect which makes him obvious scum. You continue talking about meta. Maybe if you had a fucking shred of integrity you'd notice how much you're ignoring, not how much I am.

[T S O]

Do not fucking mention us knowing each other outside of game.
Do not fucking mention ADHD.
Mention nothing except the fucking game. No bullshit personal attacks on how I am normally respectful to you.
Stop bringing that bullshit into the game and forcing me to play nice and dilute myself.

[T S O]

Gray, why did you vote red? I don't see anything quoted for it.

[T S O]

I have no regrets with what I am saying - I want to play a game of Mafia, not a game of relationships. If you don't, fine. But I am not being nice anymore.

[T S O]

Yeah, I'm definitely compromising my slot's integrity.

Aero, you're going to have to replace me. My apologies.

[T S O]

Yeah, wasn't serious is a bullshit answer. But I'm sure Wake will gloss over it. He's good at that stuff.

[T S O]

"I voted him for fun" - fuck off with that, it's textbook scum behaviour.

Why am I even saying this? I shouldn't be here.

[T S O]

Sorry to my scumpartners, Shinobi and SilverWolf. We're in a lot of trouble if Wake can pursue that incredible deduction of his that we're scum together. Maybe you guys can win.

[T S O]

I don't think this is clear, which is my fault because I'm still posting - I'm replacing out. I'd love to play with people like gm, but I can't do this when I feel like things out of game are on the table.

[T S O]

Fuck off, you prick.

[T S O]

Sorry to my scumpartners, Shinobi and SilverWolf. We're in a lot of trouble if Wake can pursue that incredible deduction of his that we're scum together. Maybe you guys can win.

Please don't replace out!!

I've been warned and force-replaced multiple times for saying things I shouldn't and I'm right there.

Fuck off, you prick.

Lol had to get one last bitchy comment in.

I don't care. My slot will be vindicated by your flip.

[T S O]

The Gray Case

Votes:

I'm getting tired of repeating this point, but it's worth saying - Gray shamelessly votes anyone who has a chance of getting lynched.

Votes red here, finally justifies it over 1500 posts later here by saying it "wasn't serious". To anyone who thinks this is a legitimate response - it's not. It really, really is not. It is the Mafia equivalent of filling space with empty words. When Gray voted red, he was legitimately in danger of being speedlynched by Sala. He knew exactly what he was doing when he placed it. He wanted the day over as soon as possible - his actions blatantly contradict his words.

Votes me here, and gives his reason here. To paraphrase that reasoning: "I was sheeping SilverWolf". We never hear why he was sheeping SilverWolf, why he felt her reasoning was good, what he liked about it - nothing. He never gives any evidence to verify his claims.A more trusting person might believe him. I'm of the opinion that this was a lie. There's no way to conclusively prove this, but seeing that he's done the exact same thing five times, I find it incredibly hard to believe.

Votes Wake here, with reasoning here. "I was sheeping Sala" - yet again we see a bullshit excuse for his vote. We never hear WHY he was sheeping Sala, what part of Sala's case swayed him, nor anything whatsoever. Just that he was sheeping. It's lies. And the worst thing about it is that he constantly attempts to glaze over it like it's nothing.

Votes Ozgin here, we've been through this before. It's him voting anyone he can under the guise of sheeping. Although here we are told that it is no longer a sheep vote! That, for the first time, Gray has actually used his own brain to vote someone! But, as you may have guessed, we never find out what changed his mind. That would be a bridge too far. So, essentially, this is a carbon copy of his other bullshit votes.

Votes Anna here. As time moves on, Gray gets more and more nonchalant about his scummy behaviour. By now, he doesn't even have to pretend he's sheeping any more - he literally just puts the vote down and leaves. This isn't town, okay? This isn't bad townplay. This is arrogant scum who knows that he's not going to be punished for playing anti-town, so happily does it. He actually lacks so much respect for us, the town, as a cohesive unit, that he makes blatantly scum plays, without any justification, KNOWING that he won't be punished for it. It's literally the most disrespectful thing a scumfuck can do.

Claim:

Early in the game, under no pressure, Gray claimed VT. This is a terrible play, but that's not scummy in itself. The problem is the fact that he had no reason to do it as town. As town, claiming VT d1 makes scum more likely to hit a PR at night because they now know that you aren't one. As scum, on the other hand, it's an extremely advantageous play. It means that, if the game is multiball, you're less likely to be shot. It makes town PR's less willing to use their night action on you. And it allows you to complain that you shouldn't be lynched because you're just a VT. Has Gray ever offered an explanation for why he did it? Yes, but it's fucking terrible. Apparently, he claimed because he wanted to mix it up. Again, this is a blatant lie. "I wanted to mix it up" is a sentence which means nothing. The benefits of claiming VT as town are almost none. The benefits of claiming it as scum are extremely high. I'll let you decide which alignment is more likely to claim it so early with so little need.

Meta:

I want to preface this by saying that I am aware that both Gray and Wake will fixate on this and this alone. Speaking to everyone else: even without the inclusion of meta in this case, Gray's alignment is patently obvious. If you haven't read the two parts above, you really should.

I played on a scumteam with Gray briefly in a game that ended in January, the Masquerade (which I won!) Gray made 5 posts out of 1240, less than 0.5% of the total postcount, before replacing out. However, Gray did not come under any pressure that game, and did not once have to defend himself. In this game, Gray made 56 out of 1240, which is significantly more. However, Gray has endured significant pressure this game. I can't count how many times I alone have called him scum, not including people like Ozgin who are also doing the same. Because he has had to defend himself more, his postcount is naturally higher. 38 out of his 56 posts are responding to pressure on him by me or Ozgin, or arguing that his meta doesn't make him scum. If you remove those, then his postcount would be 18 out of 1240. It's higher than 5 out of 1240, but it's still incredibly low - less than 1.5% of the total postcount. It remains the postcount of a lurker. My argument is that Gray has not been able to lurk like he did as scum the last time because of the pressure on him forcing him to respond or be lynched.

General play:

I am not sure Gray has offered a single opinion of his own this game. He scumreads anyone who is being voted or who calls him scum. He townreads people who call him town. Getting in Gray's townreads is really as simple as this. If he is town, then this indicates an almost mind-boggling level of incompetence, an incredible mix of naivete and lack of paranoia fusing to create the worst town player ever. I don't buy that image. Too scummy to be scum is something that doesn't apply when the scumminess is as calculated as this is. Gray's scum.

[T S O]

Fair warning, Grey, my friend - engaging my scumread on why they're scum is so pointless. You can feel free to reply, but I won't be conversing with you.

[T S O]

Nosferatu is also town. Just sit there and be town. I don't care.

[T S O]

gm please save me from these people. also don't be scum.

Let's be beffies!

But if you're deceiving me somehow then I will NEVER EVER BE OK AGAIN OKAY

I would never do this to you! It almost broke my heart after 180 when I had to lie to you and I told myself I'd never do it again!

[T S O]

Ah, you pesky quote.

[T S O]

Hello, I'm here.

[T S O]

I've only looked at the flips, but we got decimated pretty badly there. Also, I wouldn't have killed Wake if I was scum. He was the only one who really wanted me dead, bar Firebringer's ridiculous scumread, and his death would draw more heat to me than him alive would.

[T S O]

Also, yeah, it looks like it's multiball and vig rotation.

[T S O]

Can't see Wake getting vigged, it looks like Boonskiies was the vig hit, since Spiffeh seemed alright.

[T S O]

I'd call that a point in Kop-scum's favour but that would be hypocritical of me after pointing out Wake's death really doesn't make me scum.

Anyway.

[T S O]

oh for fuck's sake Firebringer what is this

[T S O]

Actually, no, that was probably the correct play from your point of view, though it's ultimately fruitless.

[T S O]

Yeah.

Survivor.

[T S O]

My path to victory this game was lynching scum d1, basking in the cred of that, doing nothing for a few days, and popping up at the end to see what the view was like.

[T S O]

Yeah.

Well, at least I won't get shot.

[T S O]

Look up the guidelines, SW.

[T S O]

Survivor is probably the most normal third party there is.

I didn't really like Kop's opening to d2 when Firebringer gave the Guilty.

[T S O]

So yeah. I wanna say:
I am a role cop.
I checked TSO, He is not aligned with town.

Time to lynch him.
VOTE: TSO

So I'm presuming that he has a role that can only be aligned with non town.

VOTE: TSO

It's not actually as bad as I thought, but I really only glanced at it because I was kinda in shock at Firebringer.

[T S O]

"New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large),"

[T S O]

If I was scum I would have made sure beforehand that my claim made sense. Though it actually happened in real time, so that's not a thing.

[T S O]

Shinobi, you're down 4 town. You will lose at least 2 town tonight, if you're lucky a stray shot hits a Mafia. You really can't afford to lynch a Survivor.

[T S O]

I thought he was scum at first for the claim, but his claim actually makes sense when he clarifies it. He's town.

[T S O]

He claimed Town Cop. I would bet that he gets Town/Not Town.

[T S O]

And I would also bet that Survivor shows up as Not Town even though it's a benign third party.

[T S O]

Shinobi, you're down 4 town. You will lose at least 2 town tonight, if you're lucky a stray shot hits a Mafia. You really can't afford to lynch a Survivor.

Yes I can.

No you can't.

[T S O]

I have been scumhunting - Gray looked like fucking scum.

It's hard to scumhunt right now when I've just seen a Guilty, but I'll do it.

It would be nice if you would help out and do the same though.

[T S O]

That day one lynch was mine. Yeah, it was wrong, but I fucking pushed it. When I made the case literally no-one refuted it. Sometimes you get it wrong - even red said it in the PT.

[T S O]

The exact wording of the Cop's result is not standardized, with the following options being most common.
Mafia/Not Mafia - This only checks if the target is Mafia-aligned. Werewolves, Serial Killers or other third-party members thus have implicit investigation immunity.
Town/Not Town - All non-Town players will return an incriminating result, even if they are benign in practice (e.g. Survivor or other third parties with nonstandard Win Conditions).
Guilty/Not Guilty - Non-Town roles return incriminating or non-incriminating results depending on the moderator's decision.

Wiki quote from Cop.

[T S O]

blegh looking

[T S O]

Okay, who am I happy about being town?

Ika, for one.

[T S O]

I think red. And Firebringer too.

[T S O]

Ozgin. And if he's to be believed, then frogger.

[T S O]

Skybird
Silverwolf
Shinobi
Texcat
Kop
Lapsa
Mahonster
Quaroath
Nosferatu
Annadog40
Goodmorning

[T S O]

There's six scum. And there's 11 names. It's possible one person got through the net, but no more than that.

[T S O]

What I need to do is find convincing reasons for the people above to be town. When the list gets lower scum will get trapped in it.

[T S O]

SilverWolf's role is pretty town so I am considering taking her out.

[T S O]

If it's multiball then it's extremely likely to be 6. Three on each team. That's how it was in Masquerade and this game looks exactly like Masquerade, to the point where I'm thinking Aero borrowed from it.

But it doesn't really matter because it's all guesswork.

[T S O]

seriously take your vote off me before I get quickhammered gm

[T S O]

I'm looking for stuff but I can't fucking find stuff I don't like

[T S O]

thank you!

[T S O]

Let me look at my wagon composition.

[T S O]

I don't like Firebringer getting the name of his role incorrect, if he really did. Also, killing Wake was going to automatically throw suspicion on TSO because of their interaction D1. We don't need to turbolynch TSO until everyone has a chance to report things they saw in D1 that might have information on why these 3 were killed.

Like.

Well then god damn, lynch me to so I can prove my role.

Either follow me or lynch me. Don't be stupid.
I don't want excuses, I searched TSO and I told you what I found, I said my role slightly wrong. Sue me.

Like.

How were your results worded?

Like.

As a side note, If this is multiball, you could be a scum cop on the other team. I'll wait until everyone gives their opinions.

This is actually true.

Looks like one death is odd-night vig, one death is scum, and the third????

VOTE: TSO

Vaguely want to call this town because I don't think scum would attempt to fake this level of ignorance.

VLA today into tomorrow and tomorrow most of the day due to, you know, college move in.

Kudos to Fire for catching a scum. I used one investigative role (cop) to discover that Fro99er is town. Tonight, since we lost our town doctor, I'm gonna say that if there is any protective roles left, focus on Firebringer. I'm good for at least one more night, if not two.

VOTE: TSO

Now that your Cop is used up you're essentially a husk, you won't be getting shot anytime soon.

No offense.

UNVOTE:

Like.

[T S O]

It seems to make sense that the reason I don't feel people being particularly scummy is because they are lurking.

[T S O]

I'm trying so fucking hard not to yell at gm and ika.

[T S O]

New guidelines.

I am in two minds of whether to say stuff since all this talk about my role irritates me because it's so fucking wrong, but it suits me to not claim since so far I've made the optimal plays with my role and I HOPED GM WOULD SEE WHAT I WAS DOING but never mind.

To clarify, this is not me intending to claim scum, so don't hope for nonsense.

[T S O]

how can you actually make that post and not realise what I'm saying, ika?

[T S O]

Survivor's been non-Normal since before the new guidelines though, if that's what you're trying to imply, which I don't think it is.

nope

[T S O]

If I had to vig someone right now it would probably be Mahonster. Curious gut feeling.