NY 189 - Flower Viewing Festival [~fin~]

[Davsto]

Oh man, 211 posts in 5 hours? Wai D:

In all seriousness though, I don't have (and probably will never have ever) the time of energy to do a big postwall of significant posts so im just gonna make vague screamy noises towards Echo's play, and then vote.

VOTE: Echo Echo

[Davsto]

oh btw i saw both you and sal bring that gambler's fallacy thing, never heard the term before, what is it?

Gamblers Fallacy is basing something on luck.

Since Piss and I have never been on thr same team yet, gamblers fallacy states that we probably still arent.

I'm not entirely sure, but isn't the Gambler's Fallacy the other way around? As in, you and him are always on opposite factions so it's more likely for you to be on the same faction now?

Anyway, sorry for the vague, useless posts, there is so much to read through in this game and I'm struggling to pay attention. Sala is doing his typical wagon on someone while people blindly follow him, but then Mario's defence on that reads as almost stupid and unhelpful..?

Anyway, keeping my vote where it is. Echo's play is still questionable to me, although Axle is working his way up the list.

[Davsto]

Also Ill bet you my account that IaI will say "Ill catchup later" and come up with some bullshit or nothinng relevant at all.

I'll believe that when it happens, thanks.

Of course, now you've said it, I bet he won't, but w/e.

[Davsto]

On one hand it seems bizarre that you claimed to have called something despite technically calling it after it actually happened.

On the other hand, I had no other hand and just wanted to give you hope.

Seriously, I ain't gonna vote on you, but the logic of "he's gonna do this thing he does as scum" and then going "wait he already did that so im right" is just...wrong.

[Davsto]

Because when someone says

Fuck off Davsto.

I'm not inclined to treat them with full respect.

I also dislike the argument you made and when I'm pointing out a flaw in an argument, hostility is sorta implied in terms of the fact that I'm taking an opposing position.

[Davsto]

But am I scum?

Unsure. History of erratic and ridiculous play makes it hard to tell. Supernull, with no lean either way even if you held a rocket launcher to my crotch and asked me to tell you.

[Davsto]

Frogger, I'm townreading you.

Shut the fuck up.

Seems a bit buddyish. "I'm townreading you, so you can't scumread me".

VOTE: Spiffeh

Call it a gut scumread, if you will. I didn't like his approach to the game.

Unexplained vote, three votes into a wagon.

I've read the thread, Sakura. Everything's null to me at the moment. Give people more time to figure out the motivations of others, will you!

Everything null 173 posts in? Not even any reads? Feels like an attempt to avoid having to post suspicious opinions yet.

Well, my head says that if you guys keep spamming, people are going to get apathetic and leave.

Trying to convince people to post and help less.

You don't say. It's 5 day deadlines, of course they have Day Chat. Probably by an encryptor, I suppose.

Reads a bit weird, as if he's purposely being obtuse - acting like he doesn't know scum has Day Chat even though it's in the rules to make it seem like he doesn't know because he's not scum..?

And

that

confirms Shazam as town. Thanks!

Ricastle is probably town.

Two completely unexplained townreads. Not a fan.

[Davsto]

Difference being:

Sakura's post was a list. Explanations would be silly for all 19 players.
Echo's posts were non-sequitur, standalone posts, where he just said "X is town". I guess I'll ask him why.

@Echo Echo

- why the townreads?

[Davsto]

First of all, the name's Davsto. No "e". Spell it right for the sake of the soon-to-be deceased.

Now, as I am town, I'd like you all not to assume that Axle is town too when I flip town, because scum do weird things. I mean, by unvoting me:
a) he got more people on my wagon than there was before
b) he made people read him as town when I flip town
Which seems like a pretty good deal if Axle is scum. Don't get to reading him as town too quick, please.

Honestly, I ain't a power role or anything so if lynching me is what it takes for you to ignore me and concentrate on the

actual

scum in this game then it's fine by me. Keep in mind Banana's pathetic excuse for a voteswitch onto me, and that IaI didn't immediately shove his vote onto a growing counterwagon, and there are probably some other things too.

[Davsto]

Also, the reason I'm not posting while you all are is because my timezone is BST, so about when all of the posting is done is 1AM-5AMish for me, sorry about all that.

[Davsto]

Okay, so you're saying I shouldn't sleep just so I can keep up with Mafia?

Yeh, no.

[Davsto]

Also, the reason I'm not posting while you all are is because my timezone is BST, so about when all of the posting is done is 1AM-5AMish for me, sorry about all that.

Whats BST in GMT (0?) I am +10 I am sure someone overlaps with you.
My problem has been with what and how much not the interaction.

BST is currently GMT+1, because of daylight savings. To give you an idea of why that was a problem...

775 was made at 1:23 AM.
900 was made at 6:56 AM.

So, even if I go to sleep at 1AM and wake up at 7AM - which is much shorter than my sleeping pattern but whatever - I still miss 225 posts.

[Davsto]

Why is it scummy to post an unexplained read?
Why isn't it scummy to post an unexplained list? (not 'it's silly' that isn't a reason I want actual reasoning)

An unexplained read is often left unquestioned. People will often just say them and, if questioned, give a non-answer, like Echo's

Why not the townreads?

Basically, it's often an excuse to just sway people's opinions and then think of reasoning later, when questioned. When you have a single person, it's not that much effort to explain why, right?
On the other hand, explaining why for each person on a list of 19 people is unnecessary. You're being more useful since you are providing a whole motherlode of things to be read by.

It's weird, and I've probably not explained the difference very well, but I just feel there is. Idk.

By the way, my answer to Echo's question is that - imo - everyone should start off null, and need to gain townreads rather than everyone being assumed town at the start.

(also, why do you think I'm not scum, and why the unvote?)

[Davsto]

Difference being:

Sakura's post was a list. Explanations would be silly for all 19 players.
Echo's posts were non-sequitur, standalone posts, where he just said "X is town". I guess I'll ask him why.

@Echo Echo

- why the townreads?

Alright.

Why is it scummy to post an unexplained read?
Why isn't it scummy to post an unexplained list? (not 'it's silly' that isn't a reason I want actual reasoning)

----------------------------------

And what if that's just how I am?

Then I am wrong.

Are you going to call my line of thinking scummy all game or are you going to DO something about it?

I posted my thoughts so that is DO-ing something I would argue. Besides that I am voting Davsto which I am quite happy with at present.

The whole response you made here is really just posturing.

Davis is afk living his life probably, don't get too worked up about it.

The IaI wagon is a terrible wagon IMO since nobody has a decent reason to want him dead other than him not posting as much as the top 3, when a bunch of people have less than half the posts that the moderator does.

Where is the good reasoning on Salamence?

----------------------------------

So...

I am thinking Dave isn't scum after his recent posts so while I await a response to the above I shall unvote.

UNVOTE: Davsto

...what?

I couldn't really understand that, sorry, could you rephrase it?

[Davsto]

Gah, ignore the quote, that was not meant to be quoted gdi.

[Davsto]

Alright then, I'll go for someone else.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

Also, FoS at MarioManiac for the vote on Sala. It seems like an attempt to counterwagon but with an RVS feel so he can go "guys it was a joke".

Actually, fuckit, I think Mario is worse.
VOTE: MarioManiac

[Davsto]

Dammit pie, just as I had finished preparing an unofficial VC.

[Davsto]

Agreeing with Slandaar here. After all, it's scum's

aim

to make people lynch townies. Voting me based on the actions of someone you think is scum is bad logic. Not scummy logic, just bad logic.

[Davsto]

Davsto who is scum?

LITERALLY EVERYONE

But seriously, a slight scumread on Echo but honestly I feel that a lot of my reads were just conf-bias so I'm ignoring that right now, I'm not liking IaI's recent posts, Mario's post are ugh.

I'm also not a massive fan of Fro99er's "even if he flips town we get info". It feels like a justification ahead of when I flip town rather than him having an actual solid scumread of me.

[Davsto]

I'm bad
VOTE: Mario

Even though he didn't state it, this is an unvote of I am Innocent.

UNVOTE: Spiffy
VOTE: Dave

So this basically happened. He decided to take a really, really pathetic excuse to jump off his current wagon, and onto my, growing wagon.

Like, he saw Spiffeh unvoting someone as townie enough to clear all his reads and change his vote? Meh.

[Davsto]

When banana jumped ,the only two vote on your wagon were Slaandar and then me. Your wagon had been static for very long time.

Was it? Huh, I could have sworn there were more people.

Ignore my scumread on Banana, apparently I didn't pay enough attention. Sorry about that.

[Davsto]

I'm laughing at Sala's Arsonist claim for so many reasons.

I sincerely hope it is a stupid joke claim and he isn't actually even slightly serious.

[Davsto]

Did you know people burn dogs for food in asian countries.

Well it's a good job we're not in Asia right now because otherwise you'd be on fire now.

[Davsto]

He was L-1 at Shazam's vote, L-2 now.

I ain't gonna hold it as a read because there hadn't been a vote count for a while, but in future please check the number of votes before putting yours on, and declare if it's L-1.

[Davsto]

For the record, Sala's claim aims incredibly obviously fake and (unless i missed something) is literally impossible to be true.

Just saying.

I say we chalk it down to just his frankly insane play style and don't read it.

[Davsto]

Read davsti's ISO and not convinced he's scum
Although the vote on banana and ne in one post felt weird

VOTE: davsto

I get a townvibe from pretty much everyone except this guy and the post where he voted me anf banana felt fake

Quite a change, don't you think? From a "not convinced he's scum" to what is essentially an OMGUS vote?

[Davsto]

waiting on Sala to clarify about 1103 see 1186

I'll clarify for him.

He's fakeclaiming.

He isn't an Arsonist.

[Davsto]

Meh, I'm pretty damn sure MarioManiac is scum, and frankly a lot of my tells will be changed by Mario's flip, whatever it is. I'd rather not get ahead of myself by going "I think X is scum" and then Mario flips something which makes me change that opinion, because it'd be a waste of time.

Also, getting tells this early for players in future days is likely to fall prey to conf/bias, which can screw me over.

[Davsto]

Right, I'll list all the players and a basic summary of my reads on them..

... in a couple of hours. IRL things yay, don't have enough time to start on a post like that.

[Davsto]

You do what you get done instead of excuses.

Yeh, because I could get so much useful info out in literally thirty seconds before I had to go out with family /s

Brief read list coming up in next post, may be a while because 18 not-me players.

[Davsto]

Aeronaut - hasn't said anything for a while so I'm not sure, but I like a couple of things he's said.

Very

slight townlean.
AxleGreaser - said a lot of useful things. Probtown.
BananaCucho - didn't like a lot of his earlier posts, but has redeemed himself by some of the later stuff. Ish. Slight townlean.
Echo Echo - I didn't like the feel of him earlier on, but I feel that I fell victim to ConfBias so I'm not entirely trusting of myself here. Null.
Flubbernugget - Posts tend to be empty, but concise, being useful but not saying that much in terms of content. Townlean.
Fro99er - makes both good points and bad points. Not a big fan, honestly. Tentative scumlean.
I Am Innocent - started off a bit scummy, but better posts have worked their way into a semi-decent townlean.
ika - 8 posts due to replacement. I got nothin.
MarioManiac4 - enough has been said, by me and others. Probscum.
pisskop - a lot of his posts have surprisingly little content, and he doesn't seem to have actually made much of an effort. Scumlean.
Ricastle - few posts, due to V/LA, but what little is there is good, he shows changes of opinions that read naturally. Townlean.
Sakura Hana - her longer posts are good, but few and far between, while the shorter posts tend to be a bit meh. Null, maybe slight scumlean..?
Salamence20 - stupid, irrational play is stupid and irrational. Could be either alignment, due to this irrational play. Null.
Shazam - I like some of his posts. Townlean, a bit.
Shiro - seems genuine when they get a read, sticks to it and gives good reason. Minor townlean.
Slandaar - makes good points, asks good questions. Probtown.
Spiffeh - quite a lot of contentless posts, later on. Makes some good vague points, but doesn't really give a town vibe. Scumlean.
tn5421 - Decent posts, I guess. Very slight townlean.

A few of these are more gut-based than evidence based. Ignoring potential associative reads ahead of flips because that is silly thing to do.

[Davsto]

based than evidence based.

ta.

Finding the ones that are evidence based, and describing your evidence would be the next most useful thing I would get from you.
That can be done at the time of day you have time and posted then.

TAI.

Most of them I could probably find posts to support my reads on them if anyone asked, as the "gut reads" are based on the general feel of their play rather than specific posts.

[Davsto]

Davsto has this problem with time. If we have some we could let him have time so he can post his reads and analysis with reasoning connected to evidence.

I get your point, but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I'm solid on my scumread with Mario.
All providing reasoning for my scumreads will do is tell the people I scumread how to act to make me less suspicious of them in future. I see no reason to expand until tomorrow, when I'm gonna go after the next scum.

[Davsto]

Davesto what actually counts as content to you

If I can specifically remember points they made, I feel they've probably made a lot of content. If I have to click towards their ISO to remember points they've made, I'll lean towards less content.

Maybe it's an inaccurate way of doing it, but I just get a feel of who is actually helping, and who doesn't seem to be in my head.

[Davsto]

Davsto has this problem with time. If we have some we could let him have time so he can post his reads and analysis with reasoning connected to evidence.

I get your point, but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I'm solid on my scumread with Mario.
All providing reasoning for my scumreads will do is tell the people I scumread how to act to make me less suspicious of them in future. I see no reason to expand until tomorrow, when I'm gonna go after the next scum.

My lynch order is open for debate again.

Okay.

Explain to me why giving a reads list today when I already think I'm voting and am going to lynch scum is more beneficial for town than just lynching who I think is scum and providing the reads tomorrow.

Providing it today will do little for town since we're already lynching scum, but it'll give scum info on how to act to be less suspicious in my eyes.
Providing it tomorrow will start off tomorrow with a bunch of read-based discussion to go off, while scum has the info that may help them later.
I fail to see why the former option is more beneficial.

[Davsto]

That second line in the last paragraph is meant to parse as "it'll take them longer to get info that may help them".

[Davsto]

Okay, which people would you like me to do? Because fuck off am I doing an ISO on all 18 players, each of which have an average of about 60 posts each, just to prove my towniness to you in a way that, imo, helps scum more than town.

(Also, harder for me to flip back on? Just having a readlist makes it difficult for me to change because I've literally said "I think this is town" and it'd be weird for me to suddenly scumread them after one post.)

PEdit-yeh, because being one of the first on the current scum wagon and posting a large list of slightly reasoned reads is not looking for scum at all /s

[Davsto]

itchy hammer finger

I enjoyed the mental image this gave me.

@Davsto: In general i dislike making long posts unless i'm making a case or replying to someone in quotes, so you'll have to deal with my shorter posts sorry!

Is fine, the shorter posts are still pretty decent, it's just I get more of a town vibe out of the longer ones, if you get me.

[Davsto]

Hasbro, why do you need to prove your towniness like so?

Assuming you mean me because Hasbro is sorta similar to Davsto because autocorrect and shit.

I don't want to, but according to Axle I need to or something, and as a fairly new player I tend to listen to advice that sorta makes sense.

[Davsto]

Dammit, I was distracted, there was a hammer.

@Axle

- I'll start writing down as many people as I can during the night so I can post it ASAP tomorrow.

[Davsto]

We should wagon Areo tomorrow.

I feel like he doesnt like playing or just lurks as scum

Almost seconding this, but I'd rather a vig do it if possible..? It's easier and more practical to get these over and done with at night than have to mess around and lynch someone who is possibly still town.

[Davsto]

Yeh, I can see IaI being scum.

VOTE: I am Innocent probably why the wagon on him dissipated surprisingly easily.

Also, two night kills. That may be a bad.

[Davsto]

quickie Who is BayMax?

BayMax is a character in the film Big Hero 6. Presumably, the one being referred to here is Spiffeh, considering that Spiffeh's avatar is BayMax.

[Davsto]

On the other hand, I've read Mario's last 5 posts and am convinced that he's scum.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

VOTE: Salamence20

Using self-meta to try to clear yourself is scummy as fuck and I'm done with putting up with your shit.

Jumping off a town wagon when it gains too much traction? Feels like an excuse for scum to go "well I didn't want him lynched". Not voting, just dislike it. Considerably.

[Davsto]

Vote for him Dav he is getting lynched today.

I have seen scum do that time and time again.

Meh, still kinda fond of the IaI one here. I haven't seen much else from tn that I particularly dislike. Convince me.

[Davsto]

ISO me Dav and CTRL-F "tn"

Fair enough. That's enough points.

VOTE: tn5421

[Davsto]

Yeh, IaI, I'm honestly confused - why didn't you check Sala?

Sala claimed vig sometime around 1287, and an inspect could have confirmed whether he is actually vig or he is sk.

[Davsto]

Not it wouldn't. Doesnt gunsmith get a positive on both ?

Nope, Gunsmith gets nothing on SK.

pedit: ninjaaaaaaa

[Davsto]

Okay, now let me ask you, why should I do that? My single post had more detail than this one that you just did, for a start, and frankly very few other players have dome a it list. Go and harp at them for not doing it rather than expecting me to do things you ain't done yet.

[Davsto]

My vote on him is RVS, why are you still trying to attach meaning to it, @Fro99er?

Claims the vote is RVS, when you can see here...

VOTE: AxleGreaser

I'm really not impressed by your first post.

Also, Sakura and I agreeing on a point? The world must be ending.

There is definitely some reasoning behind it. Doesn't look super random to me. Seems like an attempt to avoid scrutiny for his vote by just going "oh it's not serious it's RVS".

So are you saying that having any reason whatsoever discludes any vote ever from being rvs, despite the reason being obviously silly?

No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest.

Then tries to downplay this by saying it was a "silly reason". Doesn't look that silly to me, a lot of people might have not liked Axle's first post.

Why does everyone feel the need to talk in stifling absolutes on day one, not even 20 pages into a game? Who's to say that frogger/piss aren't scum together, Sala?

Also, I scumread frogger for 151/152

VOTE: fro99er

Saying that he scumreads someone because of a post but not

why.

Also, seems like a while to take to remove a supposed RVS vote.

Shazam feels town for his push on Spiffeh. Spiffeh supposedely read the thread twice and didn't respond to Shazam's (a)(b)(c) questioning of him. Shazam came back with the good point that if Spiffeh read the thread twice, he would have seen the questions to him and responded.

Doesn't make Spiffeh confirmed scum, but it does make me feel good about Shazam.

Also, replying to tn in that way is towny...he wants to hear what everyone says. Tn was just blowing off sala with "No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest."

His opinion holds no weight because he hates day one.

Arbitrarily disregarding someone's opinion is stupid and anti-town. Who knows, they might make good points that you miss by stubbornly ignoring them.

I feel like Aero is trying to scum read. Just a gut feeling.

Wow, someone is trying to form reads and follow up on them, must be scummy. /s

Who said it was scummy? Seems like he took something someone said and made it sound like it was reaching for scumreads, when it was just a Captain Obvious statement.

I'm pretty sure he said he wouldn't really be posting until tonight which gives him a few more hours of leeway. I don't understand why you're in such a rush to lynch him before he can participate in the game, and I don't like it in the slightest.

VOTE: Salamence20

For someone whose opinion "holds no weight", you're getting quite upset by his opinions, such as who he votes.

On the other hand, I've read Mario's last 5 posts and am convinced that he's scum.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

Weak reason to jump on the biggest on-town wagon.

Salamence is going and acting scummy as fuck again, can i quit now please because i know nobody will ever lynch it

VOTE: Salamence20

Using self-meta to try to clear yourself is scummy as fuck and I'm done with putting up with your shit.

We've already talked about the odd jumping off the big wagon thing in previous posts, but I thought I'd put it here anyway.

Stop trying to minimize my vote on davsto. There is what, probably 4 or 5 bad guys this game? D1 I have no problem voting any scum read (I had 3 after my catch up post) or null reads (5 at the same time).

D1 is about pressuring people, seeing how they react, gaining reads. Yes

that

preflip association

made me

feel better

about it, but as the lack of interest on my 3 scum wagons continued, I was pretty ready to move to my null reads next anyway.

Die in a fire, preferably with Salamence20.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

...and then jumps onto a different wagon too. Not liking this. Seems like he knows he's off the town wagon and thus can throw around his vote to whoever he wants.

That good?

[Davsto]

That good?

Incongruously.

Gesundheit?

[Davsto]

Though I have to ask Dav you said you aren't fully convinced about tn a few posts ago. You change your POV with a ctrl f on spiffeh iso, then yiu are pushing points from the start of day 1 in yiu last post?

That was the first time I did a proper ISO on TN, and realised how dodgy some of his posts were. When a game moves as fast as this does, I tend to read the game a bit less carefully than I normally would, and also can miss things, including who says what sometimes.

[Davsto]

Let's all take note that tn only came in to defend himself (quite crappily) and offered no opinion on who he thinks is scum, all the while keeping his vote on the claimed Gunsmith.

QFT

Also, nice picture, Shiro.

[Davsto]

I wouldn't place reads affected by what people have rolled in the past but by play, regardless of how many times a coin lands tails in a row, it still has 50% chance to land on heads next coin flip, not more.

each individual coin has 50% chance landing tails or heads

But landing heads twice in row is 25% thrice in row is 12.5% Quadrape in row is 6.25% so on and so on

But each individual flip only has 50% chance to land heads/tails.

Here's a basic image to show coin flip probabilities.

[Davsto]

Now, from that, it is more likely for a coin to flip Heads twice and Tails once than Heads thrice and Tails none.

But that's only because there are 3 possibilities for the former (HHT,HTH,THH) whereas only one for the latter (HHH).

[Davsto]

That may be true, but that's irrelevant to Gambler's Fallacy.

The whole point of Gambler's Fallacy is that, supposedly, if a coin flips heads, say, 20 times in a row, it is more likely to flip tails next, presuming a fair coin.

While, overall, it is more likely for the coins (with a true 50/50 chance) to have a 1/1-close H/T ratio, previous flips do not affect what the next coin will flip.

(basically what i'm saying is that if you use gambler's fallacy as actual reasoning i'll slap you)

[Davsto]

That may be true, but that's irrelevant to Gambler's Fallacy.

The whole point of Gambler's Fallacy is that, supposedly, if a coin flips heads, say, 20 times in a row, it is more likely to flip tails next, presuming a fair coin.

While, overall, it is more likely for the coins (with a true 50/50 chance) to have a 1/1-close H/T ratio, previous flips do not affect what the next coin will flip.

(basically what i'm saying is that if you use gambler's fallacy as actual reasoning i'll slap you)

But hey assuming that in a 13 people game with 3 scum a 2 people neighbrhood(Assuming randomised) is town based on chance was correct right : D

As long as you kept the possibility in mind that there

might

still be a scum in there, and still going on reads over just going "yeh they're in a neighbourhood so they must be clear"? I guess. It would be more likely for them to both be town.

Gambler's Fallacy would be "well last time there was a scum in there despite it being against the odds, so there can't possibly be this time".

[Davsto]

WHERES PIE

Contrary to popular theory, mods are not omnipresent.

[Davsto]

WHERES PIE

Contrary to popular theory, mods are not omnipresent.

LIES AND SLANDARS!

MORE LIKE LIES AND SLANDAAR.

rip

[Davsto]

A scumclaim? More like

A scum clam.

[Davsto]

Thats not even funny

Believe me, it wasn't meant to be. It's just every time I see someone say "claim" I always read it as "clam" because idek and I thought I'd find an excuse to inflict that thought on others.

You will now forever see scum making fakeclams.

[Davsto]

I was actually kinda serious about bringing up Slandaar like that

It was just a stupid joke/pun based on the fact that ika said "SLANDARS" and it was similar to another players name but if you wanna take it seriously go ahead

[Davsto]

陰部のお尻のたわごとファック

Awesome, I can curse in Japanese!
(srsly proceed with caution)

[Davsto]

Okay gotta admit that got babelised a little.
Oh well.

[Davsto]

So if you think I'm bussing Flubber than you should have no problem voting for him.

I don't like this post. I see it as "well let's all vote for Flubber wait oops he flipped town well I wasn't bussing so I'm not scum lol"
Keep in mind if Flubber flips town.

[Davsto]

So if you think I'm bussing Flubber than you should have no problem voting for him.

I don't like this post. I see it as "well let's all vote for Flubber wait oops he flipped town well I wasn't bussing so I'm not scum lol"
Keep in mind if Flubber flips town.

do you have anythign of substance to add or not?

Basically if Flubber flips town, Spiffeh tried to advocate for his lynch to prove that he wasn't bussing.

[Davsto]

Flubber is scum too, trying to paint SK paranoia still.

EWBOP

It's funny because Firebringer claiming that Sala misrepped him was actually Fire misrepping Sala.

[Davsto]

Okay, so Firebringer is purposefully making himself an easy target by saying stupid, ridiculous things, flat out lying, etc.

As town, he has no reason to do this, as far as I can see.
As scum, why would he do this?

Only one I can think of is to distract us from a wagon growing on his scum buddy.

[Davsto]

Guess who forgot to vote.

I'm sorta meh on the Flubber wagon, unsure if it's actually a problem. However, I do dislike Firebringer's posting, soooooo

VOTE: Firebringer

[Davsto]

Ill give a full reads list at L-1

Why not give reads now?

I half expect this town to lose though, and to ignore my reads.
Like most games.

oh yay, AtE

[Davsto]

This all makes me want to stay on flubber

it seems to me like mafia goon trying to protect mafia pr

Fair enough. Thought of scum protecting another scum, but I wasn't sure why they would though. Thanks for providing that info that was out of reach of my small brain

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Davsto]

Hydrangea or bust.

[Davsto]

So Sala is trying to pull some gambit here, cause I think I wouldve been informed of getting shot.

Generally 1-Shot BPs aren't told if they're shot.

[Davsto]

btw, looking at the game advertisements...

NY 189 - Nyctapolis II: Flower Viewing Festival

Featuring:

• 5-day Day deadlines, 24-hour Night deadlines!
  
  
• Publicly singleball
  
• WOT1 is in effect
  
• You all get to try and save a bunch of flowers from dying. How is that not a worthy cause?

Currently IN SIGNUPS in a Large Normal queue near you. Yes, the Large Normal queue. I'm making this happen \o/

Get your spot today ~

It says "publicly singleball". This means that Sala is not SK. Thank you for your time.

[Davsto]

I'm seriously considering V/LAing for the rest of the game, if ppl aren't even gonna read my posts why would I bother writing them.
(Not you Axle, you're cool)

Nah, remembering your post I decided to look for the original post with it. Just with Sala's discussion of "don't let me live to lylo bcuz they'll say i'm sk" I thought I'd point out that he isn't because singleball.

[Davsto]

Either way, the reluctance to claim is null imo, seems more likely to come from ignorance.
The problem is with his actual readthrough of the thread, his notes, and his list of reads which don't add up and even contradict.

Second point is good and I'ma probably vote but I'm unsure - exactly where is Fire in terms of votes right now?
As for the first point, I feel he's played enough games to have realised that Sala had a pretty good reason to demand a claim.

[Davsto]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Davsto]

Besides rope and see if runs anywhere is always good when you dont understand things.

Huh?

[Davsto]

vote: pisskop

I- uh- what?

[Davsto]

Im good, I dont feel the need to play in a game where Sala, whose reads have sucked and have only been superceded in suckiness by his vig shots.

If you really had a problem with this, you'd claim rather than self-voting. Surely you can't be

that

bitter?

Feeling a serious AtE here.

[Davsto]

*replace, not claim

[Davsto]

pisskop, claim and state what info (if any) you have found from your role.

[Davsto]

However much I'd love to hammer and get this clusterfuck of a day over with, info would be useful, and I sure as hell ain't hammering until you claim your role and any info.

Now do it.

[Davsto]

Can we agree to blacklist him if he flips town, and lynch him now?

But if he's Cop or something and he flips and dies without giving us jack shit that could literally lose us the game so I sure as hell ain't hammering until he claims.

Right now he's just being stubborn and useless.

[Davsto]

Anyone notice that Fire isnt here despite being here any time we mentioned him earlier?

Awaiting appearance in
3...
2...
1...

[Davsto]

Yes, pisskop is going to flip Cop... Very interesting.

Sorry, it's spelled "kop", not "cop".

VOTE: dave

You missed your chance. Don't hammer then.

A possibility. I don't feel like hammering someone without them giving info and then watching them flip something that could have helped us.

Also, that's adorable.

[Davsto]

Fuck it. pisskop has already shown that he's gonna be a stubborn git and isn't going to help town in any way by claiming.

VOTE: pisskop L-1. Don't bother stating intent, he obviously couldn't give less of a shit.

[Davsto]

VOTE: davsto

the timing of that hop back on pisskop is terrible. Now that two people (well, one plus pisskop himself) moved off pisskop, you jump on. Terrible terrible. Like you were "afraid" to hammer without a claim in case he flipped cop (kop's not gonna be a cop given what we've seen flip/had claimed so far), but actually you're probably just rolefishing.

You do realise that if I had recklessly hammered that would have been a much better way to find out his role?

[Davsto]

this jumping around Fro99er

Jumping around

Fro99er


Was that a

pun?

[Davsto]

sakenda koe wa

gesundheit

[Davsto]

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

[Davsto]

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

Towncred

As opposed to being massively suspected for hammering the main, pretty likely scum wagon with pretty good reasoning? /s

[Davsto]

votecount 1.25 (final)

MarioManiac4

(10) - Davsto,

Slandaar

,

Shiro

, Sakura Hana,

BananaCucho

, Shazam, Salamence20,

Ricastle

, Spiffeh, pisskop

Davsto (4) - Echo Echo, Fro99er,

I Am Innocent

,

MarioManiac4

I Am Innocent

(2) - AxleGreaser,

Flubbernugget

Salamence20 (1) -

tn5421

Spiffeh (1) - Aeronaut

Not voting (1) - ika

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is September 4, 18:10 GMT-7 or in (expired on 2015-09-04 18:10:00).

This makes me want to vote Davsto again. The end of D1 wagon on him was likely all town (two confirm towns, me I know I'm town, and Echo is prob town?). His wagon fizzled pretty quickly and Mario got flashwagoned. Should look at who went off Davsto and onto Mario earlier D1. I need to check tn/davsto interactions as well to confirm my thoughts.

And the Mario wagon had 4 conftown on it - and they're actually conftown, not the supposed-town that you and Echo are. Mario flipped town.

Your point is?

[Davsto]

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

Towncred

And if I had hammered I'd have been called:
a) opportunistic if he'd flipped town
b) bussing for towncred if he'd flipped scum

This is confirmation bias, Fro99er, and you know it.

[Davsto]

Okay, I get that you guys are all happy getting angry and stroking your own ego like it's your pet dog, but can someone actually explain with decent reasoning why Frogger or Axle are scum over pisskop? I mean, he self-voted and then turned the vote around on someone who wanted him to claim before hammering.

[Davsto]

Fuck off axle.

Fuck off yourself

Why? You wanted me to answer your questions so bad, then why tell me to fuck off?

[Davsto]

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

Yes i can.
because you also claim to know this.

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

Towncred

And if I had hammered I'd have been called:
a) opportunistic if he'd flipped town
b) bussing for towncred if he'd flipped scum

This is confirmation bias, Fro99er, and you know it.

Which means as scum you would have considered those as the plausible outcomes for hammering.

But, by not hammering and waiting for a claim, I
a) have been put under

more

suspicion than if I had hammered
b) didn't get to hammer someone

I am supposedly suspicious for waiting for a claim and trying to get info based on his role before hammering.

That's not suspicious.

That's common courtesy.

[Davsto]

I'm willing to be a compromise lynch at this point, if you can't come to a conclusion by the end of the day. It stops me from surviving until lylo and losing the game for us there because I'll be an easy target.

For now, though, I'd still rather we found scum, and I'd love to get pisskop lynched now. However, if me flipping town is the kick up the ass you require to realise that he is scum, go ahead.

[Davsto]

and Dav just agreeing to vote Dav

Typo?

[Davsto]

IaI* stop trying to discredit me.

Will you vote Axle or Sakura?

Who said I was trying to discredit you? I was just curious as to who you meant to put there.

And.... maybe. I can see Sakura being scum, but I'm not so sure on Axle, who is leaning more towards null for me.

[Davsto]

That was sarcasm, I'm sure you understood that was a typo for IaI.

Axle really looks like Mafia trying too hard, and Sakura is just a victim for being on all the main wagons. Usually IMO, fights like Frogger/Axle end up being TvS.

No, I didn't, for all I know you could have been referring to my initial vote on tn D2.

Also, I'm still decently set on pisskop being scum. I'm staying here for now, until something comes out and makes me come to some sort of epiphany. Or until I get the energy to ISO either of them. w/e.

[Davsto]

Proxying my vote to Salamence.[/b]

What does this mean?

[Davsto]

Like everyone knows my town game is shit, but the way hes telling me Im shit really wants me to replace out

I'm like 99% sure he's just doing that to discredit you so that people don't follow your vote.

[Davsto]

You cant scumread me and then push my wagon.

THATS THE POINT OF SCUMREADING JACKASS

QFT

[Davsto]

Oh you are kidding me. This shit is why you take apart people's arguments rather than attacking them personally.

[Davsto]

I see I'm at L-2 or something like that:/. I won't get around to reading the thread until tomorrow, but replacing in a 100+ game while being top suspect seems fun^_^. Can anybody summarize claims etc?

I think you're at L-3, don't panic.

Living players' claims (that I recall):
Salamence20 (also being replaced), 1-Shot Vigilante;
Ricastle, un-CC'd second half of Mason.

Have fun reading all of the pages.

[Davsto]

Salamence20 (also being replaced), 1-Shot Vigilante;

EBWOP - 2-Shot Vigilante, both used.

[Davsto]

Salamence20 (also being replaced), 1-Shot Vigilante;

EBWOP - 2-Shot Vigilante, both used.

Two vigs?

No, I wrote Sala's role wrong - Salamence20/Vedith has claimed 2-Shot Vigilante, both used.

[Davsto]

votecount 4.3

pisskop (6) - Firebringer, Echo Echo, AxleGreaser, Fro99er, Salamence20, pisskop

Firebringer (2) - Shazam, Sakura Hana
Fro99er (1) - Ricastle

Not voting (3) - Spiffeh, ika, Davsto

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is September 15, 20:20 GMT-7 or in (expired on 2015-09-15 20:20:00).

Sakura Hana is V/LA until September 11.

votecount 4.6

Fro99er (2) - Shazam, AxleGreaser
pisskop (2) - Firebringer, Davsto
Davsto (2) - pisskop, Echo Echo
AxleGreaser (2) - Salamence20, Fro99er

Firebringer (1) - Sakura Hana
Shazam (1) - Ricastle

Not voting (2) - Spiffeh, ika

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is September 15, 20:20 GMT-7 or in (expired on 2015-09-15 20:20:00).

So between these two posts, 3 people (not including pisskop) jumped off the pisskop wagon. Why? Pisskop's behaviour hadn't changed. I'm seeing some of the unvotes - particularly Echo Echo's, as jumping off the bussing wagon.

[Davsto]

Yes, pisskop is going to flip Cop... Very interesting.

Sorry, it's spelled "kop", not "cop".

VOTE: dave

You missed your chance. Don't hammer then.

Because of this.

Firstly, this comes literally 5 minutes after pisskop unvoted himself and then voted me.

Second, "You missed your chance" sounds a lot like scum taunting a townie that they didn't get to hammer a scum to me.

Together, those two things make it feel quite artificial, almost organised.

Now the others are you and Fro99er, you less so because you took a while to change targets, which felt natural, but Fro99er's also came soon after, and had pretty naff reasoning.

VOTE: davsto

the timing of that hop back on pisskop is terrible. Now that two people (well, one plus pisskop himself) moved off pisskop, you jump on. Terrible terrible. Like you were "afraid" to hammer without a claim in case he flipped cop (kop's not gonna be a cop given what we've seen flip/had claimed so far), but actually you're probably just rolefishing.

[Davsto]

What have you done to try and find out if your theory has merit or if there is some other explanation?

Well I've tried to get pisskop lynched to prove he is scum, and then the associative tells will be more than just speculation.

How do you explain Echo Echo and the tn wagon?

[Davsto]

The problem is, you worded it as if "sure, Echo may have done those things you read as scummy, but he did a wagon on a scum so he's cleared!" when he could be bussing. If pisskop flips scum (as I really expect), expect me to start going after Echo tomorrow.

You assume that you dont know of any reason means its scummy one. What if you just dont know.

Well Echo did give a reason, just a really really crap one when he voted me.

[Davsto]

You assume that you dont know of any reason means its scummy one. What if you just dont know.

Well Echo did give a reason, just a really really crap one when he voted me.

Well that the reason he gave at that time to vote you.

You claim that nothing changed that could explain his unvote of Pisskop.

and nothing important to your read changed.
How do you know Echo does not have perfectly good explanation of why he unvoted pisskop?

Well as far as I care, he should have already given a reason, but whatever.

@Echo, why did you unvote pisskop?

[Davsto]

Also, a note that Shazam has made the least posts of all living players, having less than even some people that have replaced in (Firebringer) or even some dead players (tn, Flubber).

I feel we should talk to him and make him actually participate a decent amount.

[Davsto]

I think someone farted.

I think someone stole my immature joke :c

[Davsto]

Is this the part where i say that fire targeted shiro last night?

Whelp

VOTE: Firebringer

At least we have an explanation for you harrowing him all day.

[Davsto]

Is this the part where i say that fire targeted shiro last night?

Fire should fullclaim rn

pretty sure he claimed Bulletproof

[Davsto]

Okay so now we caught that scum out time to go for the next.

VOTE: Bearbert D (pisskop successor, don't think I forgot about you)

Also, Sakura, any info that is useful without outing any power roles?

[Davsto]

Oh...Mafia have to have a doctor...right.

VOTE: Bearbert

No? How do they have to have a Doctor?

(also how is that relevant to changing your vote)

(I know you're conftown I'm just curious)

[Davsto]

I mean there's this

Ok, Im going to out then.

I am a 2-Shot vig, I didnt shoot N2 because I had no confidence in my reads and didnt want to make a seriously shitty shot again.

I shot fire last night to prevent town from tunneling and speedlynching since flubber flipped town.

This either means a town doc protected him (Gamethrowing, when Shiro was confirmed), Theres a mafia doctor on Fire (Most likely), or hes BP (He didnt claim and he knows Im a vig so he should understand).

So fire is scum and there is a doc or hes mafia BP.

But there's also a possibility of Roleblocker, right? Or is there setup-spec stuff regarding there being both a Vigilante and a Gunsmith that makes it more likely for there to be a Doctor?

Regardless, I'm pretty sure that the only thing that this was relevant to was whether Firebringer was scum or not and he's a bit too dead for me to care.

[Davsto]

You'd have to be the worst town Doctor of all time to protect Fire N3.

The only player I can see roleblocking Sala after he claimed 1-shot would be Pisskop. In the case of a scum Doc, I find it quite unlikely that town has a gunsmith,

A Mafia Doctor offsets the power of this, since they read as "no gun".

a 2-shot vig,

Again, the Mafia Doctor can offset this via protection, the existence of which nigh-on confirms a vig for them.

a tracker,

This is weakened by the existence of a Flower Vendor.

while scum is stuck with a Doctor and 1 potential other.

Assuming 5 scum (as is likely in 19 players) all three of the remaining scum could be PRs, honestly, and a lot of these town PRs appear to be 1-shot.

Therefore, he's the best vote.

Okay I agree here

[Davsto]

FTR, Echo Echo is now a town read for me, which will be compounded

if

when Bearbert flips scum.

So the question is kinda irrelevant now. Oh well.

Anyway, why the hell are so few people (read: 2) on the Bearbert train? Everyone was pretty certain he was scum a little bit ago when pisskop got to L-1, what's this sudden lull in seeing the damned obvious?

[Davsto]

FTR, Echo Echo is now a town read for me,

Why?

He put in a good amount of effort towards the TN lynch (who flipped scum) and that massive VCA towards the Bearbert lynch (who I think is scum). If they are both scum, he heavily, heavily bussed two partners with an amount of players which would put him at a massive disadvantage, and the second of which was an attempt to get away from a wagon on Fro99er which, frankly, scum could easily have jumped on to lynch/bus.

Of course, this is mostly assuming scum!Beartbert, but I thought I might as well say it here rather than being accused of "suddenly townreading Echo" upon the flip.

Sometimes it's useful to get basic trains of thoughts out so the other players can see and follow, rather than seeming like an irrational mess of reads.

[Davsto]

Yep, it's the truth.

I swear if this results in a 1v1 at LYLO I'm gonna cry.

[Davsto]

Why the fuck are you guys saying stuff like "if I flip scum, etc etc"? It helps absolutely fucking nobody if you invent a dream scenario with me scum. Don't look for my partner, look for that obvscum Davsto. I'm sure your analyzis will be something like :"Davsto is town" "Why?" "He can't be Bearbert's partner". "But Bearbert filpped town". "Shut up! Like I was saying, they can't be partners". That's how idiotic your annalyzis is here

Take some of these man.
In all serious, I find it amusing that pisskop's replacement is using the same tactic as pisskop - as in, trying to discredit those who are suspicious/voting on him ad hominem rather than actually giving good reasons not to vote him and to vote the scum instead, just saying "he's scum i'm not and ur stupid for not seeing this".

[Davsto]

It's pretty easy to figure out the 3rd mason...

I, uh, think I have it? Like, narrowed down to 3, with one more certain than the others.

Why the fuck are you guys

who?

Fro99er, echo echo and davsto. But davsto is mainly coasting on the others


Yeah Davsto, if you town does something moronic it's ad hominem to call you on it, right? I'm not saying you're stupid, but I am saying you're scum. And neither are the othets stupid, just stupidly tunneled

Coasting? Look who was the first to vote on you today. Also, loving the OMGUS.
As for the ad hominem, you worded the whole post in a way that implies that the people voting you are stupid for voting on you.

[Davsto]

Calm down Axle, the only flipping here is Bearbert when we lynch him.

[Davsto]

Unofficial votecount.

Fro99er (3) - AxleGreaser, Ricastle, Shazam
Bearbert D (3) - Davsto, Echo Echo, Bearbert D

Davsto (1) - Bearbert D
Shazam (1) - ika

Not voting (2) - Sakura Hana, Spiffeh

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Davsto]

@AxleGreaser - what is your opinion on Bearbert?

[Davsto]

Saying x is scum isn't work though.

Well I guess you're not doing any work then?

[Davsto]

Well this is a nice happy game with no toxicity at all.

[Davsto]

Who is Davis?

Prolly me, I was away for that time because 6AM and people were asking things like "where is this guy anyway", commenting on my not-being-there-ness.

[Davsto]

Pretty clearly was referring to Davsto. That's enough for me.

VOTE: Davsto

What? Someone saying that I was probably not there because I wasn't there is enough to make you read me as scum? What?

[Davsto]

Oh for hell's sake.

That vote from Fro99er alone is enough to make me sus him, that is oppurtunistic as it comes, looking for a tiny scrap to find someone on.

I know I'm gonna flip town so whatever, but I'd recommend not so much going after Bearbert tomorrow. He is fully aware that me flipping town will make him seem suspicious but he doesn't care, even though scum!Bear would know that I'm Town.

Lynch Fro99er tomorrow guys, and interrogate the living hell out of Shazam too.

[Davsto]

Prolly me, I was away for that time because 6AM and people were asking things like "where is this guy anyway", commenting on my not-being-there-ness.

Yeah, but he said you were off "living your life". I guess tn could have meant "sleep" but I don't think that's what tn was implying by "living your life"

Well you see, tn doesn't actually know where I am, since my timezone hadn't been said at this point. He had no clue where I was.

[Davsto]

Oh yeh I forgot to vote, sometimes I rush.

VOTE: Fro99er

[Davsto]

For the record, I'm okay with a me-lynch because you all have been suspicious of me for ages, and it's better to get me out of the way now than for me to live to LYLO and be an easy scum target.

I can't remember if I said before, but I am Vanilla Townie, so no power role worries either.

[Davsto]

So Shazam, Davsto and Bear all scum read me now.

I'm definitely buddies with one of them

Cuz it's not like bussing is a common tactic or anything.

[Davsto]

So Shazam, Davsto and Bear all scum read me now.

I'm definitely buddies with one of them

Cuz it's not like bussing is a common tactic or anything.

So you believe I bussed tn, I bussed fire, and I bussed my other buddy Shazam or Bear?

And fire bussed me, and tn bussed me and Shazam or Bear bussed me?

You are fucking great at this game.

Look, bussing when it's not gonna gain traction (as Fire and TN, the only two confscum did) is not risky and gains towncred.

Also, more discrediting. Yay.

[Davsto]

Pretty clearly was referring to Davsto. That's enough for me.

VOTE: Davsto

What? Someone saying that I was probably not there because I wasn't there is enough to make you read me as scum? What?

I don't believe you mentioned anywhere in-thread that you were afk by that time.

Well I was away for about 5 hours when people were saying my name almost constantly, and several people noticed I was gone. That's just sensible to assume I am AFK.

[Davsto]

fact is - tn hard defended you, Aero didn't mention you ONCE, and fire listed you as null

Fact is, I put decent effort into the TN lynch (which you ignored) Aero made very few posts and didn't mention several people once, and I jumped straight onto Fire once he was incriminated, rather than jumping off halfway through like you did.

[Davsto]

BananaCucho - didn't like a lot of his earlier posts, but has redeemed himself by some of the later stuff. Ish. Slight townlean.
Flubbernugget - Posts tend to be empty, but concise, being useful but not saying that much in terms of content. Townlean.
Fro99er - makes both good points and bad points. Not a big fan, honestly. Tentative scumlean.
I Am Innocent - started off a bit scummy, but better posts have worked their way into a semi-decent townlean.
Ricastle - few posts, due to V/LA, but what little is there is good, he shows changes of opinions that read naturally. Townlean.
Shiro - seems genuine when they get a read, sticks to it and gives good reason. Minor townlean.
Slandaar - makes good points, asks good questions. Probtown

I mean, if you're gonna edit my posts and cut off stuff which doesn't support your hypothesis, why can't I?

[Davsto]

My vote on him is RVS, why are you still trying to attach meaning to it, @Fro99er?

Claims the vote is RVS, when you can see here...

VOTE: AxleGreaser

I'm really not impressed by your first post.

Also, Sakura and I agreeing on a point? The world must be ending.

There is definitely some reasoning behind it. Doesn't look super random to me. Seems like an attempt to avoid scrutiny for his vote by just going "oh it's not serious it's RVS".

So are you saying that having any reason whatsoever discludes any vote ever from being rvs, despite the reason being obviously silly?

No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest.

Then tries to downplay this by saying it was a "silly reason". Doesn't look that silly to me, a lot of people might have not liked Axle's first post.

Why does everyone feel the need to talk in stifling absolutes on day one, not even 20 pages into a game? Who's to say that frogger/piss aren't scum together, Sala?

Also, I scumread frogger for 151/152

VOTE: fro99er

Saying that he scumreads someone because of a post but not

why.

Also, seems like a while to take to remove a supposed RVS vote.

Shazam feels town for his push on Spiffeh. Spiffeh supposedely read the thread twice and didn't respond to Shazam's (a)(b)(c) questioning of him. Shazam came back with the good point that if Spiffeh read the thread twice, he would have seen the questions to him and responded.

Doesn't make Spiffeh confirmed scum, but it does make me feel good about Shazam.

Also, replying to tn in that way is towny...he wants to hear what everyone says. Tn was just blowing off sala with "No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest."

His opinion holds no weight because he hates day one.

Arbitrarily disregarding someone's opinion is stupid and anti-town. Who knows, they might make good points that you miss by stubbornly ignoring them.

I feel like Aero is trying to scum read. Just a gut feeling.

Wow, someone is trying to form reads and follow up on them, must be scummy. /s

Who said it was scummy? Seems like he took something someone said and made it sound like it was reaching for scumreads, when it was just a Captain Obvious statement.

I'm pretty sure he said he wouldn't really be posting until tonight which gives him a few more hours of leeway. I don't understand why you're in such a rush to lynch him before he can participate in the game, and I don't like it in the slightest.

VOTE: Salamence20

For someone whose opinion "holds no weight", you're getting quite upset by his opinions, such as who he votes.

On the other hand, I've read Mario's last 5 posts and am convinced that he's scum.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

Weak reason to jump on the biggest on-town wagon.

Salamence is going and acting scummy as fuck again, can i quit now please because i know nobody will ever lynch it

VOTE: Salamence20

Using self-meta to try to clear yourself is scummy as fuck and I'm done with putting up with your shit.

We've already talked about the odd jumping off the big wagon thing in previous posts, but I thought I'd put it here anyway.

Stop trying to minimize my vote on davsto. There is what, probably 4 or 5 bad guys this game? D1 I have no problem voting any scum read (I had 3 after my catch up post) or null reads (5 at the same time).

D1 is about pressuring people, seeing how they react, gaining reads. Yes

that

preflip association

made me

feel better

about it, but as the lack of interest on my 3 scum wagons continued, I was pretty ready to move to my null reads next anyway.

Die in a fire, preferably with Salamence20.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

...and then jumps onto a different wagon too. Not liking this. Seems like he knows he's off the town wagon and thus can throw around his vote to whoever he wants.

That good?

[Davsto]

Basically, all of your posts suddenly sussing me after deciding that I was probtown less than a couple of hours ago is the most bullshit thing in the world.

[Davsto]

Unsure if this quick rollback of the read on me is genuine, or scum realising that going after me was a bad idea because I have good counterpoints. Will consider.

Current lynchpool:
Fro99er
Shazam (seriously we need to get this guy talking)
Bearbert D (still unsure, I guess)

[Davsto]

fuckit, I'd like more time to consider Fro99er now he's calmed down and stopped ConfBias-ing, and Bearbert is feeling more "meh" than "scum".

I propose a wagon on Shazam, to get him talking because I don't like his activity at all. Like, Firebringer made more posts, and Fire replaced in and died. BananaCucho died N1 and has more posts than Shazam.

VOTE: Shazam

I'll do the ISO thing within 24 hours of making this post, since that's the next time I really have time.

PEdit: ika.... eh. I haven't really been paying that attention to him, because he's sorta been...there, not saying much. I'll consider doing an ISO of him after my Shazam one, if I have the time.

[Davsto]

The problem I'm having, is I know if I push a town lynch, I will be the next one to go. And I'm town. So we'll be down two town players.

For the record, this is a good part of the reason I'd prefer Shazam. With us being the only ones really talking, there's a niggling worry that all three of us are town, and that the scum is just sitting back and letting us attack each other, knowing that if one of us were to be lynched and flip town, one of the others would be an almost certain lynch tomorrow.

Basically, I would like more time to mull over a couple of people I'm suspicious of who, if I'm wrong, could result in a mislynch tomorrow which could lose us the game. On the other hand, Shazam I'm just flat out seeing as scum.

[Davsto]

Wait I'm not pieguy

Guys we have an imposter

their avatars is even an anime thing like pie's I mean seriously

[Davsto]

Fro99er you literally agreed

What's the difference between agreeing and literally agreeing?

Using the word "literally" is stronger and stuff.

Also, am I right in seeing that Spiffeh was basically a non-presence until someone said they were suspicious of him?

[Davsto]

Also, for the sake of Spiffeh, his whole "LOOK WHO MAINED THE WAGON ON TN" thing seriously makes me feel he did the whole lynch for the sake of towncred, rather than just lynching a scum. This is a bad sign.

[Davsto]

Also, sorry for not getting around to that post-by-post of Shazam today, I blame homework

and procrastination

and after this post I'm going onto my tablet so I won't be able to handle doing something of that level.

I'll do it tomorrow, where homework will not be a problem since it's Friday so there won't be a sense of urgency because I can just do it over the weekend.

[Davsto]

UNVOTE:
Bleh.

I am no longer sure about this all. I need a rethink.

In the words or Meat Loaf:

Let me sleep on it,
Baby, baby, let me sleep on it.
Let me sleep on it,
I'll give you an answer in the morning.

[Davsto]

If I was scum and Shazam town, why wouldn't I hammer him like right now? WIFOM and whatevet, but any day left not lynched from me would be a win.

Perhaps the reason is because it's not LYLO yet?

The scum are currently in a bad position and are gradually getting boxed out. You might hesitate to perform a risky action like that.

Because you don't understand. Waiting would be the risky play. Scum me risked getting lynched(which now looks like it'll happen). Hammering Shazam would have given me another day(+ hammering somebody I was already suspicious of wouldn't attract much attention)

Wait a second, so what you're saying is that I should be townreading you for hesitating to hammer someone who may be town, right?

Then why are you scumreading me for that exact thing, presuming you're town?

[Davsto]

I'll have a look at those other games(yes, I'm postponing yet again)

If you want to look at my other games, go look at refraction mafia, which Axle is conveniently leaving out. Even Aero commented earlier I'm playing the exact same way there, changing my mind every 15 minutes.

Ok, this jumping around Fro99er is doing is pretty indicative of how i've seen him as town. Like if you need a reference go look at Refraction Mafia, the man changed his mind like fifteen times a minute. Town froggy.

Didn't Aero flip scum?

[Davsto]

Also I'd like to point out I said this and no-one noticed so I'm just gonna requote...

If I was scum and Shazam town, why wouldn't I hammer him like right now? WIFOM and whatevet, but any day left not lynched from me would be a win.

Perhaps the reason is because it's not LYLO yet?

The scum are currently in a bad position and are gradually getting boxed out. You might hesitate to perform a risky action like that.

Because you don't understand. Waiting would be the risky play. Scum me risked getting lynched(which now looks like it'll happen). Hammering Shazam would have given me another day(+ hammering somebody I was already suspicious of wouldn't attract much attention)

Wait a second, so what you're saying is that I should be townreading you for hesitating to hammer someone who may be town, right?

Then why are you scumreading me for that exact thing, presuming you're town?

[Davsto]

Okay.

I kinda want to vote all three of Fro99er, Bearbert and Shazam, but sadly that isn't an option.

Shazam... meh, unsure as of yet, actually.
Fro99er has his self-voting antics as well as various flailings.
But Bearbert is the successor to pisskop, whose play I disliked for pretty obvious reasons, and Bearbert's play has been very questionable sooooo

VOTE: Bearbert D

Unofficial votecount yay:

Fro99er (4) - AxleGreaser, Shazam, Ricastle, Sakura Hana
Bearbert D (4) - Echo Echo, Spiffeh, Fro99er, Davsto

Shazam (2) - ika, Bearbert D

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Davsto]

Wait, Bear was actually town? Shit.

Expect a Shazam vote tomorrow, and with any luck because of timezones being for me (i.e. the night will take tomorrow, a Sunday) I should be able to get an ISO out for him.

[Davsto]

Wait, Bear was actually town? Shit.

Expect a Shazam vote tomorrow, and with any luck because of timezones being for me (i.e. the night will take tomorrow, a Sunday) I should be able to get an ISO out for him.

Don't like this. You've got no reason to believee when I'm ssying I'm town(well, you do because I'm still posting but you should still have doubts). This makes me think you know I'm town

As far as I was concerned, you have no reason to lie after you've already been lynched. I mean, every single game I've played people haven't lied about it post-hammer.

[Davsto]

Pieguy's online, friends. Prepare for flip.

[Davsto]

a) Your vote wasn't particularly "bold", it was just poorly supported.b) Explain why the reaction is remotely interesting, or more importantly, how it makes him look scum or town.c) What does your question have to do with anything? tn does not seem to me to be suggesting that we do nothing. He seems to be suggesting that you're too sure of things that you shouldn't be sure about this early. Like Banana being "insecure".

a. Yeah I agree with that mostly because it was like page 2.
b. Like I said, the way he commented on each vote against him makes me think he's insecure and a little uncomfortable with receiving votes. I believed that to be scummier than everything else in the thread at that point.
c. I am pointing out something I noticed about his behavior that I believe to be scummy. That's how the game is played. I don't see what was so out of the ordinary that people are exploding over it lmao

The response to b and c makes no sense. b and c were about tn's post that you were pointing to in your post. You're answering b and c like we're talking about Banana, but we're talking about tn.

It's like you're failing to pick up on your own train of thought after people question you about it.

At this point, Spiffeh is clearly town to me, because he's genuinely saying defensive things that make no sense. His reaction to everything said about him is so emotional that if he were scum he'd be toning it down. I could explain why his latest posts make no sense, but ultimately I don't think that helps anyone else.

This is one hell of a readswing.

shazam, who were the scum on my wagon?

Hard to say. Ricastle, pisskop, Salamence20, Sakura Hana, and Shiro are the ones I see as more likely than the others. You can probably throw out Ricastle for being the first on there (usually scum join an unopposed wagon later). And I'd throw out Salamence because I find him unreadable at this stage. So pisskop, Sakura Hana, Shiro? I'd guess at least one of them is scum. Maybe I should check out their iso's.

4 out of these 5 have literally flipped Town. I find this unnerving.

PS - I think I caught spiffel in a lie, so that's where my vote is

Have you read my stuff about spiffeh? I don't think catching him in a self-contradiction (which is what it is, not a lie) is a difficult thing to do. In his case, I'm inclined to think it's not alignment-indicative.

Defending a player he himself found scummy earlier.

How exactly was making a blatantly bad push on Davsto a reaction test?

no. not explaining my reads was the reaction test.
I had to vote dabs to basically to stop me, town, from getting lynched.

This is some next level flailing. He's made a bunch of posts since getting a big wagon on him, and they have all been self-preservation posts. None of them shows a mindset of trying to put forth evidence that someone else is scum. The only thing he cares about is living. Seems like a scum mindset to me.[/quote]Right so Spiffeh's "emotional flailing" is fine but this is worth putting to L-1?

VOTE: TN

Any objections to an Areo shot?

I object. Please shoot Davesto.

After this post, I'd prefer if he shot you. Davsto did the same thing Slandaar and I did, except he did it earlier (joined the Mario wagon without having been on the IaI wagon). In my eyes, this makes him town because he genuinely believed Mario was scum, and didn't believe IaI was scum, which to me looks like an evidence-based vote pattern.[/quote]Wait, is this the only reasoning he ever gives to jump on the tn wagon? Looks like a bus to me.

stych? stiek. sticke. w.e

Shtick?


Since little of interest has been said in the last 12+ hours, and tn's lynch is progressing, I decided to take Sakura up on her offer and look at her iso.

Btw guys, shorter deadlines doesn't mean "let's deadline scramble every day phase".
It means we have to start thinking of compromising sooner JUST IN CASE whoever we want to lynch is driven to L-1 and then suddenly we don't want to lynch him anymore so we have enough time to move elsewhere.
This is probably ironic considering i didnt vote IaI and voted Mario instead, but i'm not even sure where the votes currently stand wrt both and I wanna know who else would be on board about IaI.
Basically I want everyone to say who they would be ok with wagoning as of >Right now< so we dont end up with half the people on 1 wagon and half the people on the other wagon arguing about why their wagon is the best one. Also if you think any of the current possible wagons is a bad idea, please state why.

Encourages everyone to use less than the whole day and make less than optimal choices as long as someone gets lynched. Recognizes that trying to act like a townie has led her to do something different from this, but wants everyone else to act less townie than her.

I see Ika replaced in, that's good, it's someone I know how to read, so far this looks like town ika.
Also regardless be careful Ika has an itchy hammer finger on anything that's at L-1 so L-2 should be considered L-1

@Davsto: In general i dislike making long posts unless i'm making a case or replying to someone in quotes, so you'll have to deal with my shorter posts sorry!

Makes a "look how townie I am" warning post that once again contradicts the mindset she wants everyone else to have of "make sure someone gets lynched even if you have to compromise".

This is all I could find of substance from the time Sakura referenced as 1000 posts. Sadly her posting style does not lend itself well to my scumhunting techniques, but this coupled with the IaI wagon analysis and "clearing" of Shiro is enough for me to call her scum.

First, the first point is inaccurate since I'm pretty sure "don't scramble for deadline" literally is encouraging the usage of the full day. The second reason it's inaccurate is because she's making the very accurate point that a lynch is better than a nolynch. This feels like Shazam is advocating for a nolynch on a day where scum was working towards being the main wagon.
Second, saying that two posts are enough to make you basically certain of someone being scum, along with a pathetic excuse as to why you've found so few posts that you can scumhunt but you still found it scummy anyway is horrible for so many reasons.

Ok. Any VCA without context is meaningless, VCA should be a helping tool not the main one IMO.
Umm, your VCA has Shazam as scum, right? Why not vote there?

Unbelievable. This demonstrates that not only have you not read Echo's VCA, but you haven't followed my votes. But let me guess: once again, your conclusion (that I am scum somehow, some way) has not changed.
VOTE: BearbertD
I'm more confident that you were a scum on my wagon than I am about Fro99er at this point.

And to round it off, this vote (hammer?)

VOTE: Shazam

[Davsto]

Also, I'm pretty sure Fro99er is town, so I feel my worry yesterday that Me v Fro99er v Bearbert was TvTvT and that scum was just letting it sail past seems about right.

[Davsto]

The problem I'm having, is I know if I push a town lynch, I will be the next one to go. And I'm town. So we'll be down two town players.

For the record, this is a good part of the reason I'd prefer Shazam. With us being the only ones really talking, there's a niggling worry that all three of us are town, and that the scum is just sitting back and letting us attack each other, knowing that if one of us were to be lynched and flip town, one of the others would be an almost certain lynch tomorrow.

Basically, I would like more time to mull over a couple of people I'm suspicious of who, if I'm wrong, could result in a mislynch tomorrow which could lose us the game. On the other hand, Shazam I'm just flat out seeing as scum.

[Davsto]

There's probably some others but navigating on my tablet is hell.

[Davsto]

Okay.

I kinda want to vote all three of Fro99er, Bearbert and Shazam, but sadly that isn't an option.

Shazam... meh, unsure as of yet, actually.
Fro99er has his self-voting antics as well as various flailings.
But Bearbert is the successor to pisskop, whose play I disliked for pretty obvious reasons, and Bearbert's play has been very questionable sooooo

You can explain what changed as well.

Also, I'm pretty sure Fro99er is town, so I feel my worry yesterday that Me v Fro99er v Bearbert was TvTvT and that scum was just letting it sail past seems about right.

The main thing was when Fro99er was scumreading me and then did an extremely sudden 180 when he saw a single post. If he was scum trying to push for my lynch, he could easily have just said that it looks like bussing, but instead it changed his read in a way that I find fairly natural for town.

[Davsto]

Spoiler: dav case on tn

My vote on him is RVS, why are you still trying to attach meaning to it, @Fro99er?

Claims the vote is RVS, when you can see here...

VOTE: AxleGreaser

I'm really not impressed by your first post.

Also, Sakura and I agreeing on a point? The world must be ending.

There is definitely some reasoning behind it. Doesn't look super random to me. Seems like an attempt to avoid scrutiny for his vote by just going "oh it's not serious it's RVS".

So are you saying that having any reason whatsoever discludes any vote ever from being rvs, despite the reason being obviously silly?

No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest.

Then tries to downplay this by saying it was a "silly reason". Doesn't look that silly to me, a lot of people might have not liked Axle's first post.

Why does everyone feel the need to talk in stifling absolutes on day one, not even 20 pages into a game? Who's to say that frogger/piss aren't scum together, Sala?

Also, I scumread frogger for 151/152

VOTE: fro99er

Saying that he scumreads someone because of a post but not

why.

Also, seems like a while to take to remove a supposed RVS vote.

Shazam feels town for his push on Spiffeh. Spiffeh supposedely read the thread twice and didn't respond to Shazam's (a)(b)(c) questioning of him. Shazam came back with the good point that if Spiffeh read the thread twice, he would have seen the questions to him and responded.

Doesn't make Spiffeh confirmed scum, but it does make me feel good about Shazam.

Also, replying to tn in that way is towny...he wants to hear what everyone says. Tn was just blowing off sala with "No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest."

His opinion holds no weight because he hates day one.

Arbitrarily disregarding someone's opinion is stupid and anti-town. Who knows, they might make good points that you miss by stubbornly ignoring them.

I feel like Aero is trying to scum read. Just a gut feeling.

Wow, someone is trying to form reads and follow up on them, must be scummy. /s

Who said it was scummy? Seems like he took something someone said and made it sound like it was reaching for scumreads, when it was just a Captain Obvious statement.

I'm pretty sure he said he wouldn't really be posting until tonight which gives him a few more hours of leeway. I don't understand why you're in such a rush to lynch him before he can participate in the game, and I don't like it in the slightest.

VOTE: Salamence20

For someone whose opinion "holds no weight", you're getting quite upset by his opinions, such as who he votes.

On the other hand, I've read Mario's last 5 posts and am convinced that he's scum.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

Weak reason to jump on the biggest on-town wagon.

Salamence is going and acting scummy as fuck again, can i quit now please because i know nobody will ever lynch it

VOTE: Salamence20

Using self-meta to try to clear yourself is scummy as fuck and I'm done with putting up with your shit.

We've already talked about the odd jumping off the big wagon thing in previous posts, but I thought I'd put it here anyway.

Stop trying to minimize my vote on davsto. There is what, probably 4 or 5 bad guys this game? D1 I have no problem voting any scum read (I had 3 after my catch up post) or null reads (5 at the same time).

D1 is about pressuring people, seeing how they react, gaining reads. Yes

that

preflip association

made me

feel better

about it, but as the lack of interest on my 3 scum wagons continued, I was pretty ready to move to my null reads next anyway.

Die in a fire, preferably with Salamence20.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

...and then jumps onto a different wagon too. Not liking this. Seems like he knows he's off the town wagon and thus can throw around his vote to whoever he wants.

That good?

So there was effort. Now I need to sort out if that's a bus or not.

I don't know. After reading that case, I'm not convinced I latched onto something correct...

UNVOTE:

[Davsto]

To start off, I find it interesting that Shazam is suddenly a fairly active and posting presence once pressure comes onto him.

UNVOTE:
Yes, I needed to be reminded of that. I got really angry at Davsto and got distracted, but I do still think that the flip outweighs my read on Fro99er. I'm not done responding to Davsto though.

Okay, this is a pathetic excuse. The fact that he's forgotten to uphold this whole thing because he "forgot" is bad in itself - town shouldn't "forget" an associative read they have, since they held it in the first place because that's what they believed. Also, I find it amusing that he's pinning the blame on me, as if it's somehow

my

fault that he made an error.

@Axle
I'm not going to talk about that subject anymore because it's a distraction. If you disagree about the association between Bearbert and Fro99er, you can vote Fro99er. I'm not going to, today. There is at least one other scum out there even if he is somehow scum. If you think I have irrationally ABANDONED a good case against someone, that should make you think I'm town, so questioning me incessantly about it isn't going to get you anywhere.

VOTE: ika

I believe Echo's claim, since I believe there is a third mason, and nobody is counter-claiming. By PoE, it must be the lurker, which is the only way to really decide on a lurker. Admittedly, it could be Axle, but his posts seem too town-motivated. He's equally giving everybody crap.

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say something here. I have no goddamn clue why Shazam is townreading me. I've generally been a mediocre player, and he said that my case on him is "bad," yet he's townreading me? I'm feeling that he's trying to avoid voting on his main detractor to get towncred or something, trying to avoid looking like he's advocating for the other half of a potential 1v1.

[Davsto]

Those posts (2973 2974) the ones you are town reading him for
they happened before you scum read him in the post I quoted.

I kinda want to vote all three of Fro99er, Bearbert and Shazam, but sadly that isn't an option.

Shazam... meh, unsure as of yet, actually.
Fro99er has his self-voting antics as well as various flailings.

So let me get this straight yesterday

after

you had had the interactions with Fro99er, that you now read as

I'm pretty sure Fro99er is town,

you say

I kinda want to vote all three of Fro99er, Bearbert and Shazam, but sadly that isn't an option.

do you have any idea why I might be tad dubious about the genuineness of your position?

Well the thing is now that one of the other two has flipped scum, I'm actually considering more that it was TvTvT. Now, I know it's definitely TvTv(something) because Bear flipped, and in the context of the whole thing it makes more sense for Fro99er to be town than to be scum.

[Davsto]

like im delibertly not posting so i dont unleash hell into this thread

Pretty sure we don't have lynch yet.

[Davsto]

VOTE: Davsto because frankly the rest of this day would be unnecessary quibbling.

I'm town. Lynch Shazam tomorrow. Lynch someone else after idk I'm shit at this.

Play well guys, I trust you to or something.

[Davsto]

Uh wat

I was basically 100% certain to be lynched today, fighting it would be entirely unnecessary and probably make you people scumread me more, and seriously you guys needed a kick up the ass to lynch Shazam and Me flipping town better be it.

[Davsto]

Woo! Well played town! Started off real weak, but really began to pull it back near the end, there.

@pieguyn:

You spelt my name wrong in the finishing post, plz into fix thanksssss

[Davsto]

Although I am curious what caused Sakura to panic into claiming a guilty onto FB?

We were being PoE'd out and i was trying to get towncred from me making a case on Firebringer and having him flip scum, when everyone was pushing him as VI i just went and fake claimed a guilty instead, this is why the timing felt odd, and it was obvious the downfall of me orz

That bus was really damn good and people didn't really start to see through the facade when they noticed little things off due to it being later - the fact you hadn't been nightkilled, the massive unbalance in terms of your role if it were town, that BP claim - that they looked back and noticed that, actually, the situation in which you claim the Tracker was pretty dodgy.

[Davsto]

If I had been alive, the Bulletproof claim would've been the final nail in your coffin. I would immediately have noticed that, if you were BP, you wouldn't even be slightly hesitant about claiming because it would allow you to draw the nightkill too.

[Davsto]

Yeah I think maybe giving scum a roleblock instead of the doctor and knocking off a mason might have made the game a little more balanced.

But I've never made a game on this site so idk

I made a pretty detailed post in the Dead Thread as to why I believed the game was largely balanced.

[Davsto]

Like I said; you made a pretty good bus, with a few slight errors which normally would have been unnoticed, but in hindsight became bigger - you could have passed off the reluctance to claim had you not then said you were BP, since any BP would be dying to draw the nightkill by claiming Tracker.

[Davsto]

But woo, now I have a decent W:L ratio after my first two finished games on this site being losses.

But all the wins have been Town. Now, to try and get a Scum win....

[Davsto]

Another thing you have to factor in is the 5-day days. This is a slight knockdown of town's power, since it gives them less time to consider lynches; see D1 where there were 3 wagons, all on town, 2/3 of which were almost all-town on the wagon itself.

[Davsto]

Yeh, the three Masons is the only part of that setup that I'd consider a bit unbalanced. Thankfully, the vig shot killing one of them so early essentially nullified the boon from this, thankfully.

[Davsto]

Hey Shiro

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7273596

[Davsto]

Yeh, curious about the Echo alt. Apparently knows vague meta about me so likely one of the few people ive played with...

Oh well, not that bothered.