Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[MaguaofIllusion]

VOTE: brizingre1

We do not like his lack of stance on the mass alignment claim.

[MaguaofIllusion]

And we’re back … back again –

Hey other head? Can we lynch Norman? I totally want to.

Post 22 is totes scummy. And he’s clearly at amateur troll given he’s been banned before and his cheeky antics in the reboot thread. We can’t have any amateurs getting in the way of our professional trolling!

VOTE: Norman

Hey Norman – I’m not answering your pointless non-scum hunting questions since they are fluffily scummy. I’m going to lynch you instead. Want to make something of it?

--

Also let’s not start the whole “Let’s mass-claim discussion” again shall we? It benefits Scum more than Town and is at best MD discussion. We can look back and find who is scummy for wanting in later.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So Empking are you scum this game? If not you should be sheeping us.

@Pine

- Um … MoI isn’t a part of this hydra. Didn’t you see our Sig?

I’d totally vote Foxace for Post 40 where he unvotes what I assume is RVS and doesn’t revote despite saying Pine is scummy. That is if I wasn’t already voting scum Norman.

[MaguaofIllusion]

You know what ... I'm not waiting for my other head ... I'm a rebel!

Stab - Foxace

[MaguaofIllusion]

UnvoteVote: BrizI can't argue with that logic.

We are voting Norman

@Foxace

- You'll a walking dead man so best give your final reads before Seacore pops in.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I submitted my Daykill on you.

Next time Seacore posts you will be flipped.

[MaguaofIllusion]

We’ve got a live one here people – more Norman votes would be much appreciated!

His refusal to not answer my questions, during night time, is probably an act a scumbag would probably do and then vote me because I randomly make votes depending on first, roster picks and then detection.

How can I laugh at this post? Let me count the way.

1. My “refusal to not answer” – lulz, since that’s the opposite of what I did. Nice double negative.
2. During nighttime – the whole universe revolves around Norman and his time-zone.
3. He can’t even be definiative about my actions – my refusal is only ‘probably’ something that scum would do and thus something Town would also do.
4. He can’t even get the reason I’m voting him correct. I’m voting him because his post was filled with scummy fluff that has no bearing on scum-hunting and that he’s a poor excuse for a troll. We have the highest standards here on MS.

@ML

– why do you think my Daykill on Foxace was a reaction test? He fence-sat way too passively for my tastes and I run on a gut basis for scum-hunting unlike my partner.

And why would you ignore Norman? Is it your belief that trolls can’t be scum?

@Foxace

– You are calling Pine inactive when the thread is open for about 24 hours?

Further, why do you suspect Pine for wagonning Norman if Norman is scum?

[MaguaofIllusion]

So what the above post indicates is -

Norman is going to be useless for scum-hunting purposes and isn't even an amusing troll.

He needs more votes stat!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hi.

Can you we stop with the quote walls that are > 50 lines long with maybe, if I'm lucky, five lines added onto the end?

That'd be great.

Why postpone it, if you think that it will be useful?

Because town has a propensity to want stupid things as well, so we're not lynching someone based on whether they did or did not want the alignment claim.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So Shadow – you are wary of the wagon on Norman because he’s a non-scum hunting troll and those people are lynched for being themselves but you think the entire wagon is Town? Then why were you still voting Foxace since he was on the wagon when you posted this?

So my partner and I agree that Tammy and Maniacal Lemon are Town. So those still voting Lemon after their next post get bonus scum-points!

So my next vote is going into the following pool – Lord Mhork or Y u no scum. Both have one post to justify why they don’t get my wrath …

Lord M

– why did you call out that there MIGHT be scum on the Norman wagon other than to take a nice soft stance that is completely Faux Town? Especially given you vote someone not on the wagon when you posted 121. Futhermore please link me to any posts of Normans that are not fluff / actually have scum-hunting. I find it very disingenuous that you attack someone for not having substance while celebrating Norman’s spam.

Y u no scum

– please explain to me why I should be voting for Norman given he’s not scum-hunting, is dual spamming and trolling, and generally needs rope / bullets stat?

So Norman – why point out that FuDuzn needs to post when he isn’t in the game?

Cooldog you need to explain why you keep mentioning Shotty in reference to this slot given he’s not in this game. I also find it interesting that you chose to downgrade someone else’s play abilities given your general rep here on site. I would think you’d be more understanding and less of a dick about it given what people like Reck do to you.

Dear Feysal – at what point does Norman’s complete lack of actual scum-hunting mean that we would be allowed to vote him regardless of his troll persona? Is it Day 2? Day 3? Please let me know when in your judgment we should be allowed to vote for someone who is not scum-hunting, trolling the thread, and stating he will never be clear in his reads or reasoning.

[MaguaofIllusion]

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

So let me get this straight -

You've called Foxace Town on multiple occasions and yet your vote is still sitting on him even after you post this?

If your response revolves around the concept of an RVS vote don't bother running that up the flag-pole since votes are votes and keeping your vote parked on a Town read regardless of how much pressure they have is scummy.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Lord Mhork

– Sure I eagerly await your attempt to explain your scummy posting.

Blah blah blah Fate hydra blah blah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CoolDog

Hohoho what do we have here? A cheeky fucking scumbag? I think so!!!!!

UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Shadow1psc

Shadoweh – so in regards to your second and third points –

2. Why exactly are you so strongly defending Mhork when he doesn’t have any significant votes ATM?
3. Your point here sounded better when ML made it at Post 126. Why are you parroting the person you look to be softly inferring is scum?

I also think your “I’m only going to pay attention to my target and give as little content as possible" stance sucks bilge-water and is totes scummy.

For ISO purposes ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

Yup ... Shadow1psc is AFFC style scum.

Thanks for being so obv!!!!

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Empking

- Do you have the site activity notification feature turn off or on for your account?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Nevermind ... I see you have it turned on ...

Empking

- Do you deny reading the thread but not posting as accused by Norman?

[MaguaofIllusion]

ITT we learn that Norman's favorite word is 'might' and that just like in the original Scream - "EVERYONE IS A SUSPECT"

[MaguaofIllusion]

You newbs do know that the 'players browsing' at the bottom shows all Players browsing Theme Park not the thread, right?

I hate to break up your amusing little train of thought with facts but figured it best to put you in the know.

Also - that feature can be turned off. Another strike to your brilliant plans darn it all!

But please continue ... I love comedy!

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Feysal

– If you’d like to point a single post by Norman where he’s authentically doing a single scrap of scum-hunting let me know. Also I’d like your answer on the point in the game where it is acceptable to suspect Norman .. .when does his shield of erratic playstyle expire?

Norman actually it was pure comedy … although I don’t think you intended it to be

So my other head thinks Norman is just a troll and VI and unlikely to be scum. So I’m going to humor him and just skip his posts until he gets put at L-1. At that point I’ll instantly move my vote to him claim or not. He is that toxic to the process of scum-hunting. And Post 295 screams “I can’t be alone in the vote lead so I’m just going to pull some Implosion-style bullshit and vote kondi the nearest altenate wagon”.

Who has yet to post since the thread re-opened? AurorusVox, Trekker, Skenvoy, Haze

I’ll need to check up on their site activity …

So Shadoweh:

Please point to the post which triggered your Town read on Lord M. Have you ever played with him as scum? I have to say my personal experience with him as Town was not the same as yours.

Also I find it fascinating you are trying to push a “ML is lurking” stance given he has the 4th most posts in the game post-crash and more than double your personal posts. It’s like you think people will not actually fact-check.

[MaguaofIllusion]

And look who pops up 5 whopping minutes after I point out he's possibly avoiding the thread?

Scumtastic!

God damn hydras .... why did I agree to this again?

[MaguaofIllusion]

People who I have absolutely no read on and am happy to vote
------------------------------------------------------------

Empking
AurorusVox
PeregrineV
Y u no scum
LynchMePls
greenknight
trekker
Mastermind of Sin
Haze

Town
----

ManiacalLemon - Probably town from post #4, #20. Actually, re-reading #20, could also be some third-party lynching type role who needs to find/kill a specific alignment. Whatever. Not scum.

Shadoweh - Town for #16. Could be faked scum, but I'd rather leave intelligent, rational people alive at this point regardless of their alignment, honestly.

Tammy - See Shadowmeh.

Zdenek - See Tammy.

Norman - Almost undoubtedly town from sheer aggression. Annoying as hell, still town. Honestly stopped reading his posts around page 6 and felt much better for it.

Skenvoy - For stuff about alignment claiming in the original thread.

Cooldog - Ignorance is town, and there's no way scum would be so ignorant of who made up this hydra (that is, hitogoroshi and myself) as to confuse us with drmyshottyizsik and DGB.

Foxace36 (xvart) - Probably town just based on behavior while under pressure. Would reevaluate if he turned out to be an alt/had a lot of experience from another site, but so far he's received pressure from a number of places, posts profligiously, and continues to do the things that seem to annoy others.

Meh
---

Guy_Named_Riggs - Every nerve says "scum" but I've seen him play like this before and just be town. Wouldn't shed a tear if he died. Had a scumread on Skeletor from the first incarnation, which kind of edges him towards scum independent of his meta.

kondi2424 (Rang Tangler) - It's kondi.

brizingre - Did not like from original thread, but I agree with all of his reads in #207 so am reticent to pursue. I'm a softy like that. Still, a kondi vote is very meh. Waver.

Feysal - Feysal should have seen half of this hydra (that is, the hitogoroshi half) play enough to know how it works, and that erratic is par for the course. Still, Feysal is a paranoid waller, so, waver.

Scum
----

Pine - Because I'm bitter over AFFC. Also, #37 sucks. But mostly AFFC.

Shadow1psc - See Pine, re: AFFC. Also not seeing the town-Shadow-play. Mostly useless stuff so far. Argues theory with Foxace, things like that. If scum, look back at #106 and see who was voting Norman -- partner is in there. Actually, strike this, as it picks up a bit: but still a lot of Shadow's stuff is passive, reactive, so still scum.

Lord Mhork - So far his non-RVS posts have been defense of himself and hounding after kondi. I like neither. Disagree with Shadoweh on this.

Jackal711 (Malee) - One post, don't like, I don't have enough suspects, he can go here.

UNVOTE: Whoever the other head was voting
VOTE: Pine

[MaguaofIllusion]

I still will insta-hammer Norman the second he gets to L-1.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Funny I mention how trekker, Haze and Skenvoy have yet to post and they all mystically find the thread right afterwards. At least 1 if not more of these players is scum. Bank on it.

So trekker is a Epic Mafia troll VI who will also be ignored like Norman. They can go make finger-paints in the corner as far as I’m concerned. I’ll also insta-vote trekker if he gets to L-1. Fair warning is fair.

@Shadoweh

– in Post 342 you completely fail to address the fact that you made an attack on ML for lurking out pressure that was terribly scummy. Backing off as you did smells of scum. Why shouldn’t I vote you right now?

@Haze

– So your vote for Tammy – do you have reasons for voting pretty obvious Town or are you just scum who scrambled to get any vote down after being called out for avoiding the thread?

@MOD – Please confirm that all players received their Take Two role PM so I can start hanging the scum going “Oh, I had no idea this thread was up”

[MaguaofIllusion]

Are the first descriptions the evidence for the "unlikely to be scum" description?

No, if you had bothered to read you would have seen his reasons on the last page.

[MaguaofIllusion]

ITT Norman tries to elevate "Too Scummy to Be Scum" to a higher art!

[MaguaofIllusion]

No that's not OMGUS, OMGUS would be, "I HATE YOU, I'M VOTING YOU BECAUSE YOU SUCK!" No, you see, what I'm doing in this situation is, I'm nicely saying, "Look, you're voting me, so I vote you." That has no correlation with OMGUS and I deny everything of what you say about me.

Insert face-palm pic here ...

I'm not OMGUSing, I'm nicely suspecting everyone who suspects me.

Moron.

Sorry other head ... I can't not vote for him at this stage.

VOTE: Norman

[MaguaofIllusion]

Norman (7) - Pine, Empking, kondi2424, LynchMePls, brizingre1, MaguaofIllusion, ManiacalLemon

Halfway home folks!

Also, everybody (including AV, who is the only one not to post since the reboot) has picked up their PMs.

Thank you Mod

So between AV, trekker, Skevnoy and Haze we have at least 1 confirmed scum and possibly more. Good to know.

@Cooldog

– Don’t get too wrapped up in the identity of the hydra. I think you can probably decipher it given the Site general stance against Spoof accounts these days.

[MaguaofIllusion]

ITT Norman is going to soft-claim and backtrack on every possible role in the hopes of outing Town Powerroles!!!

Good Times!

Can we have lynch time now please?

[MaguaofIllusion]

My other head is wrong. Norman is town. Aggressiveness is town. Stupidity is town.

Norman-scum is either getting himself lynched or getting himself vigged. Bad scum plan, *especially* in what is already known to be a multiscum setup. Norman's "I'm not OMGUSing, I'm voting him for voting me," is an obvious troll, not some blatant tell.

Seriously, town does stupid shit all the goddamn time, waaaaaay more than scum ever do. Every self vote I've ever seen that wasn't a hammer: town. Benmage cc'ing a cop in ASOIAF and getting him lynched: town. Magister-fucking-Ludi-fucking-claiming-cop-with-a-guilty-on-a-VT in AFFC: town. Town are morons.

So I shouldn't really be surprised that people in general are acting moronic here. Norman is a distraction, sure. Except in getting people to want him dead, he's been useless. Don't care.

So between AV, trekker, Skevnoy and Haze we have at least 1 confirmed scum and possibly more. Good to know.

On this I agree with other head, except I don't think it's Skenvoy. And my money is AurorusVox. Has posted in another game over a period of a day, but nothing here.

Pine's still scum.
Shadow1psc is still passive, still don't like.
Wouldn't mind AV or Haze dying.

But Norman's town.

UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Pine

[MaguaofIllusion]

Jackal's post is full of shit, by the by.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MaguaofIllusion:
No offense, but would you please take the dissonance to a QuickTopic? Before it gets out of hand, yeah?

Hi!

No.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoS

– Stop trying to bait suspicion. With Trekker and Norman around it’s never going to pay dividends.

Norman is a grade-A VI moron. Regardless of how Town he is per my other head he’s going to be actively helping the scum with his ‘antics’ until he’s dead. Mark my words … he’ll never be scum-killed. So if you want this string of stupidity to continue please feel free to not vote him.

For the record – Norman indicates he thinks scum have daytalk.

Other head – go refresh yourself on Clash of Kings and the process by which competent Town are killed leaving VIs in endgame to screw up what should have been an easy Town Victory. That’s a roadmap to what leaving Norman alive gets you.

Greenknight is tingling my scum-dar. He’s keeping a generally low profile, talking around any significant thread activities, and is taking the position re: Norman I expect from scum – one that allows them to lynch him later on when mislynches are running low.

Any of trekker, Haze and Skenvoy are still great votes. Mod has acknowledged that everyone received new Role PMs so there is no reason why anyone can say “Oh hai, I didn’t know this thread was open”.

Lord Mhork

– so basically Post 428 you were fluffing to look good when you said “There is scum there” since you actually didn’t have any suspects. Also – why didn’t you find the flurry on Lemon to be “odd” since it can't be considered any more 'well grounded'?

What have I learned from Norman? That he’s a Chesskid / Shotty / Furc level VI. There is no grand plan coming together. His tactics are pointless. Go through his ISO and count up the following –

Number of players he accuses of being scum – Wager it is approximately 60% of the playerlist.

Number of actual commitments to positions on players being scum – You will find Zero. His reads list at Post 443 doesn’t commit to actual scum-reads on anyone. FOSes and “Might be scum’ aren’t actual positions.

Also Lord M – please link me to any completed game you have where scum self-voted.

Zdenek gets scum-points for his stance on Norman. Like Greenknight it looks like scum keeping his position open. The fact that they were voting each other (or people claim they were – I didn’t bother re-reading) in the old thread but have a 180 change in this one is worth noting.

@Tammy

– regardless of you stubbornness to not want to vote – who are you biggest three suspects at this stage

--

Shadoweh gets her own section –

First please confirm or deny you are a Mina Alt.

To keep it brief, the amount of posts you have is not as important as when you have them. Dropping off in activity when you're under suspicion is scummy, but I've come to the conclusion that Lemon isn't really posting less so much as other people are posting way too much. I still want him to expand his suspicions, the attacks on Norman are too easy and it seems like he forgot he thought Fox was scum.

Oh, so your argument is that despite being at the top of the list ML was lurking out pressue. Let’s take a spin through the facts, shall we?

Day 1 opens March 18 at 9:51pm (note all times are my personal site time of EDT). Game rules say that prods are given every 48 hours.

You make your “ML is lurking post” on March 20 at 10:40am.

Lemon’s prior post was at March 19 at 6:09pm.

So you were pushing ML as lurking out pressure 16 hours after his last post and 36 hours after the game actually started. So before he could be even due a Prod.

No. Just no. The spam generated in the thread by Norman does mean someone not posting for 16 hours is lurking out pressure. At the point you made your accusations Lemon would not have been due a prod if he had not posted since the game started.

Your “he was lurking out pressure based on when he posted” holds ZERO water. You are scum who got caught with her hand in the cookie jar making a scummy argument and is doing everything you can to extricate yourself.

VOTE: Shadoweh

Die, scum, die!!!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Im getting so confused by him. One of his heads seems obv town to me and the other is iffy.

So if you think this is the case -

ISO me. Make a list of each post in one of two categories -

Obv-Town Head: Post numbers
Iffy Head: Post numbers

It should take exactly at most 5 minutes.

[MaguaofIllusion]

After the last two posts I'll certainly consider Foxace a viable lynch ...

The day is barely 5 days old. Days on MS routinely last up to two weeks.

Also, what happened to the list I asked for?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Prod times don't mean anything. 16 hours is a really long time. (And 48 hours is more then half a game day where I'm from. <_< ) And considering everyone forgot he exists in favor of LYNCH ME LYNCH ME it's not as crazy a concept as you make it out to be.

Nope, 16 hours is NOTHING. Look up the page. The site you are playing on is Mafiascum.net. It's not EM, Smashboards or whatever other place you are from. Site norms here are what apply.

Once upon a time over 2 years ago I migrated here from a site with 24hour Day / Night cycles. Did I conclude that reactions times as I was used to still applied? Nope, I adjusted my expectations.

Your stance is scummy. Especially given you have played in games here on MS before.

Also .. you didn't answer my Mina-Alt question.

Confirm or deny

!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Can we just lynch Trekker then? Please? I can only stand so much stupidity before I go on a rampage the sight of which will scar most players for the rest of their days.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Pretty much don't want to play this game anymore. People like Norman just make Mafia un-fun.

I'm a Chaotic Good Bard. I can Detect Law every night in search of the LE faction.

Pray tell, how does detecting Law help you search for the LE faction as opposed to simply lawful players in general (ie, half the game)?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Read the bold. I win if I eliminate the LE faction.

Yes, jolly good show, etc. Let me try again: do you think your ability to detect law is useful in helping you win?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also no offense, Norman

kondi, but you were sort of lame in Mayo Clinic. Like

you

were

are the dull quintagonist always saying stupid shit. So maybe you shuold die.

I have fixed this for you.

[MaguaofIllusion]

The CoolDog wagon is made of Fail. He’s so clearly Town it hurts. I cannot believe how bad that wagon is.

Pine’s claim makes my head hurt. How in the hell did you get that you were about to be lynched? The Mod vote count after you claim had you at a whopping 1 vote. Even if every vote move after your claim was an unvote of you that puts you at 4 possible votes.

Foxace’s Norman re-dux quickly following that makes me doubt there is a God. I cannot accept that in an ordered universe we would see this level of trolling / derp in one thread.

Peregrine fits all the requirements for scum flying under the radar if you are looking for the non-obvious suspects. Also I’d certainly be willing to lynch him after seeing this.

Trekker – please go find a tissue elsewhere. I understand clearly about finding scum. It’s how I identified you from your blatant “Imma gonna lurk and then when I get called out respond in 5 minutes flat” VI tell.

@Shadow

– You dropped a Mina specific tell so I had to ask. Do bad for you. I would probably have left Mina be even if I thougth she was scum.

And I will continue to think that asking pointless question is scummy even if you flip town.

This demonstrates you are either terrible Town or scum then if you stand by this. Your laser focus solely on Tammy to the extent of ignoring the rest of the thread is noted.

You also need to provide support for this assertion with links – Complementing someone's scum hunting is buddying and buddying with MoI has proven to be an effective scum-tell.. Thanks for acknowledging we are Obv-Town though. I appreciate it.

My Town read on Lemon is fading every time I see him conjecture about jesters.

@Lord M

– No, the point is that you finding nothing odd about a flash wagon on Lemon but finding problems with the one of Norman is suspect. I know you aren’t a VI from MST3K Mafia so I know you can follow a line of thinking.

Your ‘OMGUS-lite’ regarding being suspected is noted!

@Tammy

– Why shouldn’t I tempt you to lynch trekker. It’s a good lynch

Greenknight I saved you for last as dessert for me –

I said I think Norman is unlikely to be scum, how on earth do you interpret that as setting up a future mislynch? It's particularly hypocritical given that in the same post you said the following

1. Immediately trying to deflect suspicion! Bravo!
2. Here’s what you ACTUALLY said

re. Norman: At this point I get the feeling he could be a Jester type role because he's been going out of his way to antagonize people from the start. I don't trust him but I also have a hard time believing that a regular scum role would play this way.

You specifically go out of your way to say he’s so scummy you can’t believe he’s normal scum and must be a jester. You know, the kind of statement that makes no sense and you can dismiss later with “Well, I guess I was wrong, he was regular scum” whenever you are needing that lynch not on your partners. Nice distancing from your own statement! You don't say he's Town but drop the "Too Scummy for Scum" fallacy.

Implying that Norman is of negative value to the town and therefore it's ok to policy lynch him... it looks to me like you're the one potentially promoting a future mislynch here.

Implying? You act as if I’m hiding my opinion. I’m flat out saying he’s a Anti-Town VI who is detrimental to Towns’ well-being. I will lynch him the second he gets to L-1. Scum are the ones who like to keep VIs around. They are pocket mislynches later on and distract Town Vigs from the task of shooting scum early in the game. The BEST time to policy lynch in a Large Theme game is Day 1. You get rid of a VI and get valuable information regardless of their flip.

(Also, policy lynches are a bad idea in this game, given that scum have 2 night kills to our 1 lynch and the scum are not in competition with each other. We can't afford to waste days just to lynch people for being annoying.)

Typical scum positioning right here – take what appears to be a "Totally Town" position that is completely empty. Of course scum have two kills to the one Town lynch (with possible Vig activity set aside). Facts you leave out in making your Faux Town Stance –

1. VIs are never killed by scum at Night and thus narrow down the pools for Scum to shoot competent Town.
2. You don’t even acknowledge the fact that Norman can be scum. He must not be a partner for you.
3. Cross-kills do happen in Multiscum. So crying “Why don’t you think of the Nightkills” is empty fluff. I can point you to umpteen Multiscum games where cross-kills occurred when scum was looking to kill what they read as Town.

Yup. Greenknight is scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So other head – you are up this weekend as per usual!

VOTE: Norman – After this post other head I can’t let him live. I don’t care how Town you think he is … he’s policy lynching obv-Town after whining about policy lynching. He goes!

Reminder

– At least one (and hell, probably 2 or 3) of trekker, Haze, AV and Skenvoy’s slot are confirmed scum.

And after this vote despite not reading the thread AV is probably scum.

Norman’s calling himself a competent townie while voting for the most obv-Townie (other than this slot) Cooldog in thread speaks for itself.

Feysal being willing to just idle his vote uselessly and make posts like this where he spends overt amounts of verbage to tell Norman essentially “Play better” doesn’t make me feel good about his being of the Good alignment set.

@Foxace

– so you think Pine voting for ”Lol I was totes thinking the same thing bro” reasons is scummy but have zero problem with trekker (pro-tip – that’s his entire ISO. “Norman is Cool – I vote with him”)? Nah, that’s not flying.

Oh please, that is such garbage. A quick skim from your play in Atomic Mafia shows that you used the following reasons there to think that people who flipped town were scummy:

1. Player's dropping easily faked town-slips
2. Player's not being able to answer simple questions regarding stances that they've taken. For instance, saying there are tones of reasons why something is true, and then not being able to provide any.
3. Distancing from flipped scum.
4. Appeasement

I do not believe that you seriously think that none of these things scummy anymore, and suggesting that I am scummy for thinking that just because a town person did something scummy that the tell becomes completely invalid is stupid or scummy. SInce I know you aren't dumb you can guess which way I'm leaning.

1. So you know that the head who responded to you was in Atomic Mafia? How is that again?
2. For sake of argument – even if that was the case why are you

A. Using a single game as meta evidence that we are scum? Especially one where said head was Town and you just came of a game where you were SCUM PARNTERS with that head! Scumtasic!
B. Asserting that calling you terrible Town or scum has anything to do with the fact that your tell is valid? Pro-Tip – it’s not. Your assertion stopped being relevant when you said her questions were “worthless”. They aren’t IMO and you pushing them as such is scummy.

Afraid to directly call us scum Zdenek?

For buddying with MoI there's Diddin and Conspiracy from Atomic Mafia, and I could find others.

Where are your links? Why didn’t you find the others?

Can’t wait to see your reasoning.

Oh, so now it isn’t just that Tammy was asking pointless questions? Why didn’t that appear earlier in your reasoning? Why is attacking what you perceive to be bad logic in other’s attacks a scum-tell? Reasons … you are lacking them!!!

@Cooldog

– Tammy I read as Town and as Zdenek is in my scum pool.

On the contrary,

scum love early policy lynches because it's so easy for them to blend in with the town with a vote that they don't have to justify

. You're acting as if it's inevitable for town VIs to get mislynched. Which is nonsense. If you can't get a sense for the alignment of a VI after a few days, then you're not as good a player as you obviously think you are. Oh, and in this game half the town leaves after the first scum team is eliminated, resulting in a 50% chance that any given player won't see the endgame. If you policy lynch someone just because you don't want them in endgame, there's a 50% chance they wouldn't have been there regardless. So yes, policy lynching is particularly anti-town in this game.

In regards to the bolded – Have any support for this assertion or did you just pull it out of your ass? Please link me to however many games you want and I can then show you an equal number of games where scum push against policy lynches. But please continue to argue that scum don’t like to keep incompetent and weak players alive so they can lynch them later. It’s why players like Norman and trekker are killed by scum at Night early and often

As to the rest of your response – LMP already showed how a side achieving a win-con can result in endgame instantly for the other side. Funny how your 50% statistic (which again, you pulled out of no-where) doesn’t account for that possible scenario or the many others where a VI mislynch results in the game ending.

So no, policy lynching isn’t Anti-Town or more Anti-Town than usual. Your attempt to throw around made-up statistics to support that stance shows you know you are on the wrong side of the argument.

The rest of your attack on me is laughably bad.

Can’t defend against it so you play the ‘Dismiss and Pray’ game?

Lulz.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also not a fan of MOI's "scum wouldn't act this way" argument for Norman. No idea why "aggressive" is a town tell. Scum can easily be aggressive, especially in multiball. And stupidity as a town tell is also so full of fail it's not funny.

At this point, I'm doubting you could seriously believe this. Scum want to be *less* aggressive in multiball so they don't get crosskilled.

Now, arguably in the case of Norman, he's not going to get killed by scum because of all the noise he provides. But he did this by painting a target on his back that reads "VIG ME PLZ". So, yeah.

Do you want a list of shotty-scum games that he got busted for being stupid? Cause I can definitely provide that. Start with the ghostbusters game linked above. So stupid != town and aggressive != town.

Yes, I would like this. You should take a moment when compiling this list to make sure that he's actually getting busted because his stupidity was a scumtell, instead of the Ghostbusters game you linked where he got busted for claiming someone else's role (which is, to be fair, stupid).

Im getting so confused by him. One of his heads seems obv town to me and the other is iffy.

@Foxace:

I see other head has called you on this, but I don't see an answer. Which of our posts do you find to be obvtown?

@PeregrineV:

There is no way, no how that you thought this was this hydra's first game.

Lol at whoever called me scum for voting without reading the game. You want me to read 30 pages? Go do something heinously vulgar to yourself.

Lol you read the post but not who said it? Lol. Indeed.

--------------------

Other stuff.

Don't like Foxace36's self vote in #628. This reads incredibly like "Well, I saw Norman do it, and suddenly there are people thinking he's town, so maybe I should do it as well." I'm in total agreement with Zdenek's #626 on this.

What I *really* do not like about this is that this reaction occurs when he had two votes on him, from Pine and Norman...both of whom he thinks are scum.

What Norman did right there was pretty dam scummy. I'm torn between him and Pine atm.

I've seen newbs react with the "lynch me and you'll be sorry," routine, but not when the only votes on them are people they think are scum...and certainly not when it is more likely the people they have scumreads on will get lynched.

As of #628, votes were as so:

Norman (6) - Empking, kondi2424, LynchMePls, brizingre1, CooLDoG, Jackal711

AurorusVox (2) - greenknight, Shadoweh
CooLDoG (5) - Shadow1psc, trekker, PeregrineV, ManiacalLemon, Lord Mhork
Shadow1psc (1) - Guy_Named_Riggs

Pine (2) - Mastermind of Sin, Foxace36

MaguaofIllusion (1) - Feysal
Tammy (2) - Haze, Zdenek
Zdenek (1) - Tammy
Shadoweh (1) - MaguaofIllusion

Foxace36 (2) - Pine, Norman

Yeah. Pulling your vote off of a scumread to put onto yourself when you're both tied in votes doesn't ring true.

UNVOTE: Shadoweh
VOTE: Foxace36

Norman and Cooldog are both town. Other head agrees that Cooldog is town. Other head also agrees that Norman is town, but thinks he's too destructive to the town to live. Point still remains, we both think Norman is town -- just varied on his usefulness. (Protip, Norman: Maybe take a few days off. That'd be great.)

I retain my doubts about Pine, but figure that if his claim is real he'll die (LE scum would likely shoot someone they have to kill at some point to win, who could bust a fakeclaim of theirs (them being incentivized to claim chaotic to not get crosskilled), over the unknown of maybe shooting and hitting someone lawful and wasting their shot) and will revisit that if he's still alive in a few days.

The Cooldog wagon is full of fail. Shadow, trekker, Lord Mhork, AurorusVox are all people I would not mind seeing dead. Peregrine and ManiacalLemon are both only slightly above that. Norman is town but dumb. Etc.

Norman wagon is less full of fail (I'm obviously hedging my bets here because other head keeps wanting to get on it), but I think in the end misguided. If you think this setup is close to 2 3v13 setups, we don't have any lynches to waste on policy, so it doesn't really matter how fucking annoying you may find Norman, don't be voting him unless you actually think he's scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Foxace36:

Still waiting for that list of our obvtown posts.

@AurorusVox:

Given that you're not going to read 30 pages of the game, you could still do us the favor of commenting on what you think of Foxace.

@Norman:

Seriously, can't stress this enough, post less. And for fuck's sake, stop quoting an entire screen-long post to add in your one line to the bottom. Also also, get your vote off of Cooldog-town and put it somewhere where it might actually have a chance of hitting scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Mod:

Please to be prodding Shadow1psc, Y u no scum, and Guy_Named_Riggs, kthxbai.

I've now reread the Zdenek/Tammy bickering back and forth, and I sincerely cannot find the energy in me to care about it one way or another.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Alright. So I read the 30 pages of madness.

I'm going to try something here. I'm a Commoner. I'm town and have no power, just VT. I'm going to keep my alignment to myself though.

Hi. I hate you.

Okay, I'm sick to fuck of people saying I claimed "for no reason". Imagine you're me, and you're 20 pages behind. You've posted like twice, and are skimming along trying to keep up. And you see this:

Literally do not care. Your claim timing was bad and, etc, but now that it's happened I'd really like to see something other than you defending yourself that the play was somehow good when it wasn't. You can save that for MD after the game is over.

Things I do care about your opinion on:
- Foxace
- Moneybag's claim
- Whether you think CooLDog is town or not
- Whether you think AurorusVox is scum or not

[MaguaofIllusion]

Ok, I'm at a friend's for a limited time so I have very little time to post.

For anyone suspicious of me you may question me now before I have to go.

@Foxace36:

Still waiting for that list of our obvtown posts.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Don't care about the first two groups.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Foxace36:

Still waiting for that list of our obvtown posts.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Oh @421 Tammy:

I notice you've done this twice, once to MoS "Are you kidding me" and once to me "Oh joy a prod-dodger." Do you have any reason in particular to focus on people who are active lurking?
Sure it's a scum tell but this is a humungous game. Do you find that it's a defninig scumtell?

Do you have any reason to believe that all of the lurkers are town? Do you have any reason to believe that putting pressure onto lurkers so they post content is anything but pro-town? Or is this just because *you* were one of the people included?

Also I'd like to point this question to MaguaofIllusion as well: Why is you vision so narrowed down to AV, myself, and Skenvoy that there must be scum in one of us three?

I think that the two of you focussing on lurkers so hard is so blatanly scum trying to find mislynch targets.

Let me tell you, between Norman and Cooldog, finding mislynch targets in this game is anything but difficult.

But riddle me this, Batman: How do you come to the conclusion that we're tunneling on lurkers when we have yet to vote any? How do come to the conclusion that Tammy is tunneling on lurkers given all of the Tammy/Zdenek back-and-forth?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hey MoI, why ask for my opinion of FoxAce and then do fuck all about it once I've given it to you?

ScuMoI?

Er, because you agreed with us, and we don't see a reason to argue with people who agree with us?

I know, it's weird.

Something else I was pleased to see was the Typo Incarnate hydra on so many suspect lists. There are far fewer reasons though and even less votes, which I would like to see more of. CooLDoG is not scum, and Norman would be no more than a consolation prize compared to the big bad scum hydra. I also feel less sure of Foxace36 being scum than I used to, leaving me with no more strong suspects to pursue at this time.

My case on Typo Incarnate has to wait until tomorrow as well, but for a sneak preview it involves his stance on Norman and my experience with both heads of the hydra, particularly the one that seems to be cursed never to be town when I am in the game.

Sad but true, Feysal, you agree with us on Cooldog and Norman, so it's obvious that we must be scum. I like you.

I like my vote just fine where it is. It just needs some friends. 13 of them to be exact.

So of the leading wagons, we've got your opinion on Cooldog and Norman. "Meh" on Foxace. Nothing on Pine. A declaration that you're going to leave your vote on us, not post a case until tomorrow, which should leave, mmmmm, less than five days in the Day to get the 13 other votes.

That's a good plan you've got there.

Allow me to suggest an alternate plan:

1. Take a stand for or against Foxace.
2. Take a stand on Pine, even though Pine won't be lynched today.
3. Get a wagon started, even if it's on us, that might, possibly, maybe have the chance of going somewhere by the end of the Day.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Trekker and Haze are players outside of Foxace that both of our heads would support lynching at this stage.

As a reminder – at least 1 of trekker / Haze / Skenvoy’s slot / AV are confirmed scum.

Cooldog continues to get more obv-Town as the Day goes on. At this stage (page 32 as I write this) those players on his wagon are likely scum or the worst level of Mafia player we have on site.

Moneybags can DIAF for taking the Anti-Town that we’ve already seen and ratcheting it up a notch.

@Greenknight

– So you are inferring it’s scummy that Pine (no matter how dumb the claim timing / reasoning) has claimed a role highly speculated to be in the game and not currently counter-claimed. Do I have that right?

@AV

– Not lynching someone who you think is obv-scum because they will ‘only be a goon’ is so beyond dumb I’m not sure I read that right. Did you actually intend to say that?

@Foxace

– I don’t particularly care if you like to only deal with one person at a time. This is a Large game in the big boy playground. If you can’t keep up that’s not my problem.

In regards to your list of our Town posts I’d like to remind you of your original quote that brought up this question from you –

Im getting so confused by him. One of his heads seems obv town to me and the other is iffy.

So here you hopped on the “One head is scummy, one is Obv-Town” sentiment floating around. So let’s examine 819’s list of Town posts (14 in total) –

Head One (the obv-Town cuddly head) – 6 posts (19, 327, 464, 607, 610, 772)
Head Two (the ‘mean’ and scummy head) – 8 posts (80, 184, 189, 350, 491, 511, 656, 730)

So more of the posts have been made by the head you claim was giving you scum vibes. While we are on the subject answer me some questions –

What is Pro-Town about Post 19?
What is Pro-Town about Post 491?
What is Pro-Town about Post 511? Why did it take you so long to complete the task (given 5 of the 14 posts you call Pro-Town came after my first request for you to explain why one head was Pro-Town and the other scummy)?

@Haze

– Let’s talk about Post 829.

1. I’ve consistently listed trekker, yourself, Skenvoy and AV as having at least 1 scum. Why did you fail to list trekker in 829? He’s in the list just like you every time?
2. Why are you asserting we are focusing on lurkers when the majority of my posts are directed to active players?
3. Again – please explain why you did not post in the thread until conveniently just after Post 491 where I called you out for such and you were not being prodded.

Furthermore your Post 831 contains some very scummy elements –

Calling Tammy scum for posting detailed and readable explanations and responses?
No explanation for why Jackal is scum?
Whining about Pine’s claim making things ‘unfun? Is it unfun because his claim removes him from the possible mislynch category for you?

@Zdenek

– You seem confused. You keep framing the issue regarding your suspicion of Tammy as this head making statement he can’t possibly believe based on my past. That’s continually dodging the issue.

The facets of your ‘case’ on Tammy are as follows per the thread

1. Asking pointless questions – you haven’t proven that the questions Tammy are asking are pointless and not valid scum-hunting.
2. She isn’t taking stances – not valid.
3. That questioning Player A’s attack on Player B is scummy if Tammy isn’t Player B – again it isn’t scummy to point out scummy attacks players are making on others. That’s usually scum-hunting, especially if her points are valid (which they are, IMO). For example I’ve been doing that with you in regards to Tammy.

My position on why you are either terrible Town or scum is rooted directly in the fact that you’ve been making scummy attacks on Tammy. She’s a pretty solid Town read for both heads and the manner you are approaching her is scummy IMO.

@Lord M

– are you specifically trying to play stupid? Lemon picked up 5 votes by Post 29 of this very thread. That’s as many votes as the wagon on Norman (who you have since voted) picked up. Again – why were you not worried about that wagon?

Lord M’s empty ‘Townie’ posts continue to help build my scum-read on the slot.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Zdenek

– you get a full response with quotes … you’ve made me do it … hope you are happy!

I haven't dodged anything. If that's what your comment was meant to mean, it's incredibly vague.

You keep trying to re-frame the discussion in every response in the manner that suggests you are absolutely correct and everyone who takes issue with you is crazy / scum.

Here's more evidence of what Tammy is doing, and since you seem to not believe that is something that scum would do, here's an example:

Compare Tammy's play to Darth Yoshi's play in Nexusville Mafia.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=16263

Let’s being by saying the following – the basis of your ‘tells’ on Tammy is a single game of DarthYoshi’s meta? Have you looked to see whether Town DarthYoshi plays as demonstrated here? I doubt it very much since you very much look like you are trying to frame a playstyle as scummy. I’m not going to ask you to provide Tammy scum meta since I doubt very much there is any here on MS.

In fact given the following line from Post 310 I’m seeing some significant Cognitive Dissonance from you –

I can see where MaguaIll is coming from regarding Shadow1psc's play being similar to his play in AFFC, but I wouldn't wnt to lynh Shadow1psc because of this meta arguement.

So you agree that you can see where my other head is coming from in regards to Shadow1psc but ‘don’t want to lynch him for meta” while here you are pushing Tammy strongly on meta that isn’t even her own meta. That makes zero sense from an honest, Town scum-hunting perspective.

And let’s not mis-rep Zdenek – the point is not that I don’t believe scum would possible do what you are asserting.

I don’t believe you have proven at it is behavior MORE LIKELY to come from scum or that you have even proven your points are valid at all. Why the continued attempts to state things that are not accurate about my posting?

Tammy questioning other people's attacks:

You still have not established why questionining other player’s attacks is scummy on its’ own or in any way shown how Tammy is showing scum intent in here attacks.

Case in point – your examples are the following:

Post 697 – Do you think it was reasonable for Shadow1psc to use ‘Not reading or understanding the rules’ as a scum-tell. Furthermore you clipped the following lengthy post where Tammy explains quite clearly her problems with Shadow’s post in your ‘case’ here –

@Shadow1psc - I reread CoolDog, here and in the other thread, and I don't get why you think he's scum. I understand your original point. I've seen scum in almost every game I've been in feign ignorance about the setup or some aspect that they should definitely know about, so it's good to be a bit weary about it, but the thing is it looks like pretty genuine confusion, and that coupled with his posts in this incarnation, which look quite town, I don't see the accusations. I don't know why you keep harping on it either. A good number of your posts are harping on CoolDog, this situation, and anyone who hasn't acknowledged it. Are you basing your suspicion of him solely on his confusion in the original thread?

Post 582 – Once again you’ve clipped significant content where Tammy discusses AV and your read on him –

3. I'm confused. You say that suggesting an alliance isn't scummy but buddying can be. What I read in re-reading Avox was him suggesting a voting alliance, which you've just stated isn't scummy. You've interpreted it as buddying, but can you point out anything more than AV suggesting a voting alliance, which you've stated isn't scummy, to show that he's buddying?

I'd also like to you to explain your logic on the wagons. You say that scum will avoid getting on wagons early? *shakes head in mass confusion* What? Are you serious? Is that really what happens here at this site? I'm lost at your attempts at logic because it's my experience that it's the complete opposite, especially if there's an easy target around. It's a very few scum who won't jump into a wagon or come up with a perfectly reasonable reason to vote somewhere just to have a vote out to avoid the great mafia fundies who ridicule people who hold onto their vote. Not jumping into a wagon makes them stand out, which is what most FM do not want. Your logic is flawed. Day one is the easiest day for them to get on a wagon early if they want to because they can easily make up some crap reason to be there.

4. Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided. Eh...I like my vote right where it is.

Furthermore – why is agreement with you on 1 point about AV indicates she has to have a scum-read on him? It’s pretty clear from what you clipped that she has serious concerns with your statements.

Tammy usinging questions to get other people to do her dirty work:

Aside from the fact that this isn’t a scum-tell or even valid (Tammy is certainly providing plenty of scum-hunting content independently) the examples you give ( Post 587 and Post 592 ) are examples of her scum-hunting via digging into the motives and statements made by others.

Tammy asking questions instead of taking stances:

Are you suggesting that Tammy is taking no stances with your selective quoting here?

You specifically snipped two small nuggests from Post 697 as ‘examples’ of asking questions and not taking stances while ignoring all the stances in that exact post –

1. She doesn’t think Cooldog is scum with reasonsing. Solid stance.
2. She thinks that Peregrine actually fits the profile of Shadow’s claimed scum-tell on Cooldog. Calls Peregrine a very likely scum slot. Solid stance.
3. States she dislikes Foxace’s self-vote and that his converstation prior regarding Norman’s self vote (excusing it as a Town tell) makes Foxace look disingenuous.
4. Take strong stance that trekker is a policy lynch and states she isn’t a policy lynch fan at all and that she feels like a hypocrite for even considering it. Solid stance and not something that makes any sense coming from a scum slot.
5. States she doesn’t believe scum like early policy lynches. Solid stance.

So I, in just the post you selectively snipped content from, have found 5 very solid stances and opinions provided by Tammy.

In fact at this stage I’m going to say it very much looks like you are scum looking to selectively harvest out of context snips of posts to bolster your case as opposed to actually scum-hunting.

Zdenek is also an acceptable lynch for me at this stage.

The fact that there is scum motivation in playing like this is plain to see, so the fact that you are attacking for attacking Tammy is ridiculous.

So given the fact that the examples provided don’t support a scum perspective I don’t think your attempt to dismiss out of hand my concerns as ‘ridiculous’ is anything other than scummy rhetoric.

I also want you to explain your town read her.

She’s posting solid, readable content. The questions she is asking make complete sense from a Town perspective … I’ve found myself nodding my head at various points she is making in her posts. Her stances are very much Town stances – being open to discussion in the course of scum-hunting but not afraid to share her opinion.

--

KK. Anything in particular you want me to say?

Who are your partners?

Good catch. I have no idea. It was a mistake. Read what you will

I’ll read it as lazy scum who actually isn’t interested in scum-hunting but is trying to ‘make points’ with short pokes you think look 'good'.

No, I just notice that out of all the other players you seem to enjoy poking the lurkers a lot. Not asserting that you are focusing on lurkers, but you tend to pay extra attention.

So what is the point of your comment then? Do you think it isn’t Pro-Town to constantly keep lurkers on their toes and pushing them for content? Do you think scum don’t lurk?

Coincidence? I have to say points 1 & 3 that you have against me are very circumstancial. 2 is fair enough.

Yes, it is complete coincidence that right after I call trekker, Skenvoy and yourself out (and note – you were not prodded in this time frame) and suddenly all three of post within 12 hours (and I screwed up the original link – it was Post 323 where I first called you out)

Trekker responds in 5 minutes with fluff.
You prod dodge 7 hours later.
Skenvoy prod dodges 10 hours later.

I doubt very much it just happens to be coincidence that all of you ‘suddenly’ found the thread without a Mod prod right after being collectively called out. A couple of you flip scum and I'm thinking we have confirmation that Norman is scum also. Because the most logical explanation for your collective sudden appearance is a Daytalk QT "Get your asses in here and post" prod from a partner. And Norman has already stated he thinks there is Daytalk despite Town having no reason to know existst or not.

But while we are on the subject of your ‘sudden appearance’ – please explain what you meant in Post 346 where you said the following –

Oh I'm on page 2 where the bandwagon on norman is and IMO he's probtown from meta

There is no bandwagon on Page 2 re: Norman. Page 2 starts with this post and ends with this post.

Norman has a total of 2 votes by the end of the page. Please explain how you are generating a ‘Town read’ on Norman from page 2 when he has 2 votes and Lemon had 5 a that stage.

That's the thing. You could be scum and still be calling out reasonable scumtells. I'm just finding things that differentiate you from the town scumhunter. Things like calling out lurkers all the time. Oh and its' funny you mention readable: does a readable argument make it more credible and more town?

So the one thing that ‘seperates’ me from Town who scum-hunt is calling out lurkers. Is that right?

Yes, a readable argument if it is logical is more credible and more Town than one that is not. That’s the basis of forums Mafia. Do you get that now? For the record – Tammy’s arguments are readable, logical and solid Town scum-hunting.

Jackal? Doesn't make much sense + hardcore sheep?

1. Care to point out why he ‘doesn’t make much sense’ instead of just making generalized fluff?
2. The irony of you calling out what is effectively one of our biggest lurkers while knocking me for calling out lurkers is not lost on me. In the fact that it’s a sign of Cognitive Dissonance.

--

@Greenknight

– In regards to Pine and AFFC I think you are mixing up Chesskid (who claimed RB) and Pine (who claimed JOAT, which he was). Please link me if I am wrong. Who suggested he was getting Town points for his claim? That’s a straw-man argument. His claim was terrible and anti-Town. Yet you were actively trying to infer it was directly scummy. Your wrapping it in meta doesn’t give me a feeling one way or the other.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Something else that bothers me about the hydra is that they have been purposely obfuscating who the heads are. At first they had a signature that claimed the heads were drmyshottyizsik and DrippingGoofball. I treated it as an obvious joke, what with their hydra name making it blatantly obvious who the heads were, even without seeing both heads discuss forming a hydra in the signup thread. It stopped being a joke in post #41, where one of the heads claims MoI is not part of the hydra. To what end? This was not an isolated incident either. In post #184 they ask CooLDoG for an explanation for why he referred to their slot as shotty, and changed the signature to read that the hydra consisted of Fate and Furcolow. It should have been obvious to them that CooLDoG had taken the signature seriously, so what is the point of confusing him further?

For future reference, the names in the signature later changed to Seacore - the [moderator] - and Sotty7, then to CooLDoG and trekker.

One possible explanation for the obfuscation is post #327, where the nice head, aka Magua, explains that CooLDoG is town for being ignorant of who made up the hydra. Nice argument, by which I mean it is exceptionally bad. I can think of no reason why being ignorant of who the hydra heads were should be a town tell, particularly when it should have been blatantly obvious and common knowledge. It is definitely not any kind of inside information scum would be more likely to have... unless the hydra was scum, and they were talking as themselves in the scum QuickTopic. Of course, coming from the hydra such a town tell would be anything but. In fact, the part of CooLDoG's posts that is hardest for me to believe to have been sincere is his ignorance of the hydra heads, even after it was explained to him repeatedly. That looks like intentionally playing dumb for town points, and is my main cause of doubt about his alignment.

As a bonus, in the same post Magua seems to be trying to feed me the idea that he is partnered with hitogoroshi. I have no idea why, or why he thought that could ever work. MoI had already posted out of the hydra -

twice

.

Also, on a more serious note: lol.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Amusing. Now how about you explain what the point was to confuse CooLDoG about who your heads were?

To troll for chuckles and other reasons.

Now how about you explain how voting me for trolling (which is basically what you are doing) is different than us voting Norman for trolling (which you used as a scum-tell, natch).

I'll be waiting.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Greenknight

– my reference to a Strawman argument was in reference to the specific statement “Basically he doesn't get any townpoints for claiming and I view pine as mildly suspicious currently.”

You’d need to point me to the post where I indicated that Pine WAS getting Town points for his claim. Again, in Post 784 you made the bit where you inferred it was scummy for him to be claiming a role that was speculated. I find that sort of soft assertion as suspect.

@Shadoweh

– Why did your scum-read on Zdenek ever go away.

@Feysal

– So your point is that it is completely obvious who the heads of the Hydra are to anyone with a working cranium yet are questioning why we have a funny sig? Is that what I am seeing here?

@Lord M

- See now I think you are just trolling with this response. If so good work because you already surpassed Norman in skill and effectiveness. You don’t know when the Lemon wagon originated? You can’t ISO the Mod for Vote Counts and find it yourself? Do you need to be handed everything on a silver platter?

And saying your statements are ‘Empty Townie posts’ is hardly name calling. I’m saying your posts are crafted to look like they come from Townie McTownpants (taking easy and soft positions like “Let’s be nice to each other”) but don’t actually help Town out. That’s something scum are interested in doing, not Town.

--

I’m so hurt that Haze dislikes my posting style. Your inability to type the words [p@st=866][/post] or direct quote is noted as attempts to make it more difficult to analyse your response.

2. Like I said, this catch is pure coincidence and circumstancial. It's an honest mistake and obviously you're not going to be convinced since you're so shut up in your tiny pinhole vision. Your honour, this is the highest I can put it to you.

And I’ve said that I don’t believe you and think you are scum. That’s the downside when your play reads as scum to me.

3. No, it's easy to fall under the radar in this game. Scum would be better off making semi-frequent posts rather than be like me and geniunely be away.

Basically what you have been doing since you first popped up after I called you out.

4. Again. This is circumstancial. I didn't post in the thread when Seacore first sent me the link. A couple of days later I saw my to do list (which includes mafia games to read) and I decided to make my first post because I totally forgot about this (ie not in my Egosearch.) I hadn't even read your posts at that point. So yes, it was coincidence.

So you got a link to the new thread and chose to not bother to bookmark it (which is far superior to Egosearch in keeping up with games)?

5. Looked like a wagon was going to build, as per mosts games I'm in with Norman in Day 1 before he replaces.

Oh, so you posted that there was a bandwagon on Page 2 because it looked like one would form, regardless of the fact that it didn’t. Lulz, no.

6. Like I said, scum can formulate perfectly reasonable and logical arguments. Especially in a game this big with this many mislynch targets.p

In fact I tend to sound more credible as mafia because I put more effort into my posts and edit and re-edit them before I post.

It's not a read. Also for the record, your arguemnts are emotional and tunnelly.

And the fact that Scum can make logical arguments doesn’t refute the premise that Town are overwhelmingly better of as a whole if they do so themselves. Scum making logical arguments are much more likely to be caught out in bad logic and are more suspectible to giving out relational tells.

The bolded make exactly zero sense so I’m not sure what you are getting at with it.

You clearly don’t have any clue what Tunneling is if you are trying to say that we are tunnelling you.

7. I didn't even call jackal for Lurking. Read. Read. Says Sheeping. Me not voting Pine was avoiding creating this cognitive dissonance, big man. I think you/Shadoweh tried calling me out for that.

Way to dodge the questions! Here is what I originally posted (so everyone can see that you are indeed dodging)

1. Care to point out why he ‘doesn’t make much sense’ instead of just making generalized fluff?
2. The irony of you calling out what is effectively one of our biggest lurkers while knocking me for calling out lurkers is not lost on me. In the fact that it’s a sign of Cognitive Dissonance.

1. You again didn’t bother to point out a single post and demonstrate why Jackal isn’t making sense.
2. Your ‘I didn’t call him out for lurking” actually makes you look even more scummy. Because in 3 above you say “Scum would be better off making semi-frequent posts”. So you are asserting that Jackal is behaving as scum logically would but then YOU DON’T EVEN CALL HIM SCUM FOR IT. Instead you throw down some generalized bullshit that you refuse to actually support.

Haze you can definitely swim in the scum pool!

--

@Town

– I’d like you, before reading this (if you are going to do so) to first review Post 866 and Post 878. Notice all the things I showed that Zdenek blatantly does not address – his snipping selective quotes completely out of context to make his accusations and ignoring the refuting of his points with direct examples.

My argument against Tammy is not a meta argument. It's a she's making posts that have possible scum intent: avoiding taking stances is scummy, trying to get people to focus on others rather than doing it yourself is scummy and defending people by questioning other people's attacks on them is (somewhat) scummy. The scum intent is clear - playing like this avoids conflict while creating conflict between other players, and defending people from others attacks is buddying with the person being attacked and if the person being attacked is lynched and flips town, it increases the players credibility in the thread. Now, I am providing evidence that these are actually things that scum do, and I chose Darth Yoshi's play in that game because it bears such a close resemblance.

Well let’s be frank then – you’ve failed to make an argument that what are accusing Tammy of is more likely to come from scum. You can find pretty much any behavior in forums Mafia and find examples of Scum players doing that.

1. You’ve failed to address the fact that I showed that Tammy was taking stances and that your examples were taken out of context in a scummy fashion.
2. You’ve failed to address how I showed that Tammy was not ‘trying to get people to focus on others rather than doing it yourself”.
3. You’ve failed to show how her attacking people for suspect attacks on others is scummy or even inaccurate.
4. You’ve failed to show how she is buddying anyone.

The Town intent is also clear – to scum-hunt people making scummy attacks, scum hunt a number of players at once (very Town play).

I was pretty specific about it being that meta argument and not meta in general, and moreover, my argument against Tammy's not a meta argument. Keep grasping MoI.

Directly linking to scum play in another game is a meta argument at it’s core (bad or good) whether you want to frame it as such or not.

I don't care about doing that, and frankly no one does it. If you want to start holding everyone to that standard fine, but I've said what I see Tammy doing. The fact that there is scum motivation to play this way is clear, and now I've provided evidence that scum do in fact play like this.

You’ve proven 1 example of scum acting in that fashion. That doesn’t prove scum motivation reliable enough to be considered a viable scum-tell IMO.

Personally, I don't think this is a tell, but I can see how people could come to the conclusion that is.

So it isn’t a valid tell but you wouldn’t say using it as a tell is scummy then. How’s that post feel?

It doesn't, but rather than acknowledging her agreement with that, she decided to attack that entire argument with the blanket of it being terrible.

Please link me to this because I don’t recall seeing that behavior.

It is a scum-tell and you're wrong.

You, so you go to “NO U!” Noted.

I don't have to find everything that Tammy's done scummy to find some of the things that she's done scummy, and I've already said that she's started look a bit better in my eyes, but there is no chance that I am going to say that these things that she's done are not scummy.

Bullshit. You said she wasn’t taking stances. That’s a binary statement. Either she is or she isn’t. I showed how your examples were cherry-picked and not accurate. You don’t get to say “This one line shows she’s not taking stances” when I showed you how she was taking solid stances IN THE SAME POST YOU QUOTED FROM.

Now you are backtracking and trying to say “I didn’t say all her posts were scummy or that she wasn’t taking stances in all her posts, just these bits I cherry-picked to form my argument”. Scummy as hell!

Not a town-tell.

Should I respond with a “NO, U” to this.

It's certainly not the case that they all do.

Again, “NO U”.

That's cute, but it's a shitty reason for you to think that she's town.

At this point I’ll just say that your opinion on what a valid tell or ‘shitty’ reason means very little to me given I think you are scum. Dislike that? Oh well.

[MaguaofIllusion]

The above post is brought to you by the letters V and I and the number DERP.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Reminder going into Night – pop-up lurkers group with at least 1 scum minimu – Haze, trekker (who looks like he flaked back to Epic Mafia, lulz), Skenvoy and AV.

Norman really needs to die. I can’t put it any more plainly. He’s not scum-hunted one whiff this entire game despite his number 1 post count slot and anyone defending him probably is scum looking for “Town Cred”. Note to other head – let’s do an analysis of this in the QT compared to our reads.

--

@Greenknight

– You may claim you are not implying that I was giving Pine Town-points but your response read to me as you were. Otherwise it’s just fluff that you would have been better avoiding posting in the first place. I choose to believe you are competent and thus did it for a reason.

@MOS

– You do realize people don’t generally like to lynch a claimed Investigative role Day 1 that’s uncounter-claimed, right?

@Shadoweh

– Actually I’d rather look at content rather than fluff from the first thread (which the alignment argument pretty much was).. That leads me to a question – why did you say ‘resurrect’ your scum read on Zdenek if you had a Town read on him from the original thread? Resurrect means you had a scum read and it went away. I have a hard time seeing how that is possible from your response.

@Mastin

– You get slack since you replaced Lemon. Explain these reads ASAP –

TOWN:

Zdenek

PROB-TOWN:
PV
Lord Mhork
Y u no scum

SCUM:

Tammy
MoS

--

1. and 3. This is part of a pattern in her behaviour in the early game. It's the sum total of what she was doing, not the individual things.
2. Yes, I have.
4. I disagree.

Sigh … if it was a pattern of her behavior in the ‘early part of the game’ why did all your examples stem not from that periods? In Post 860 your examples came from post numbers 697, 582, 587, 592, 433, 697, 697. The more you scramble to cover your bullshit case the more you step it in, scumbag!

2 and 4 are more “NO U!”. Can’t refute, don’t try. Got it!

It's not because I could find other examples too. Unless you are trying to argue that every scum it a meta argument at it's core, in which case, fuck off.

No, fuck off yourself Captain Scumbag. You directly linked your case to direct examples of it from another thread. That’s FUCKING META. How dim are you to not get that? The “all scum cases are meta” if fucking lulzville. No they aren’t. I’m not going “Here’s a post from Thread XYZ showing how scum is selectively clipping arguments just like Zdenek is doing” as I call your scum-ass out. I’m directly doing it. Because it is scummy behavior that does not need artificially crafted case enhancement to demonstrate.

People disagree about scum-tells all the time, so it's not an indicator of alignment, but I have no clue what you asking.

I’m calling you out for fence-sitting there Captain Dimbulb.

Also – those quotes don’t come close to demonstrating the ‘scum behavior’ you are claiming.

No response again to the truth that you were scummily clipping quotes I see.

ZDENEK IS CONFIRMED SCUM FOR CLIPPING QUOTES IN AN POOR ATTEMPT TO USE OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTES TO SUPPORT HIS SCUMBAG CASE.

I’m going to keep posting this as long as I am alive every post I make so no-one forgets it.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Tammy

- Very serious question ... you are in NO danger of any serious wagon at this stage. Why do you care that obv-scum Zdenek is twisting in his attack on you? Very few players seem to be giving him any credence?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Well since it's saturday I have a little more time to post.

I'm done with this game though. The amount of bullshit being tossed around is amazing. And for the person that asked me to claim, read my most recent post. I claimed Lawful Good Commoner.

I dont really care if you guys believe me or not. We are 41 pages in so far and still havent lynched anyone. Thats ridiculous! So I will keep my vote on myself so we can hopefully advance to day 2 sooner.

How is it ridiculous?

How, assuming you are a Lawful Good Commoner, is it more useful for you to lynch yourself to advance the game to D2 than it is to try to get....mmmm....pretty much anyone else at all lynched, from your point of view?

tl; dr: Who should do you think we should lynch?

[MaguaofIllusion]

My concerns coming out of this are primarily on LMP who proposed what I see as almost the most anti-town scheme possible, in the sense that if we used it then we'd be in LYLO very fast, if we failed to lynch town

I am

We are amused.

I think you're a blatherer, which I haven't seen in other games where you've been town. I also think Tammy's more town than you. Given the choice between lynching you and her, I'd lynch you.

Other head more or less agrees.

Also, personally, I stop reading your posts the moment they introduce a second quote. So your #1018 was the first post of yours I'd read in awhile. It was nice. Doubly nice that it was about us. But I much prefer #1018 to...well, just about anything you've posted recently.

(Yes, yes, I'm aware of the irony of not reading quote stripes given the posting proclivities of other head. So it goes.)

PEdit:

Im the only player that has a chance of being lynched before the deadline so why should I even bother trying to convince everyone to lynch someone else at this point? I think it be better that Im lynched so we can avoid a no lynch.

Asked who you *thought* we should lynch. This question, you should note, is based off of solely your opinion on who is scum, and shouldn't care about any requirements like deadline or chance of that person being lynched.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So why are you voting yourself over one of them?

If it's because you don't want a no-lynch, why did you self vote over a week ago, when deadline was a non-issue, instead of one of the people you found scummy?

[MaguaofIllusion]

(Misposted as my modding alt. Kindly ignore that.)

[MaguaofIllusion]

Do I see the makings of a Zdenek wagon?

VOTE: Zdenek

This is a good lynch.

And lulz, Vi trekker is back ...

Hey look, I'm double posting like a boss!!!

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm a CG commoner.

Look a VT claim! Hammer it home!!!!

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI should still answer my question.

What question?

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI, why didn't you react that way with Fox's VT claim?

Nevermind, found it.

So you are asking why I didn't react to Foxace's VT claim when he was at like L-4 with anything other than keeping our vote on him as opposed to why I highlighted Zdenek's super-early claim when he was at like L-11?

If that's the case you have answered your own question.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Zdenek is not getting lynched today.
Or any day, if I have my way.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that your reads will govern what happens.

You perhaps need to adjust that expectation. Zdenek isn't Town and needs rope.

[MaguaofIllusion]

No, he is. This is his town play. I've seen him do everything he's done in this game as town. Not only is he town by meta, he's also town by play; his posts make a lot of sense, he says a lot of good things, he's scumhunting legitimately, has good suspects, raises lots of valid points...

Seriously, he's town.

1. Yup meta is complete bullshit. So strike 1.
2. Um whut? Scum-hunting legitimately? He's piled on a load of points that aren't accurate and cropped posts out of context in making bad attacks.

So let's get a list -

1. What points that are 'good' has he raised. I want post references.
2. He has good suspect? Um this is multi-scum so even if that was true (which it isn't IMO) it's not a Town tell. List his good suspects.

Hop to it Mastin. Clock is ticking.

[MaguaofIllusion]

And I will push HARD to make sure Zdenek doesn't gain any more. He. is. not. scum. He's one of the most obv-town players in this game, and has been from the moment I saw him posting as I'd expect him to if he were town.

Obv-Town? Lulz. Get your scum-dar checked Mastin it is clearly broken.

[MaguaofIllusion]

This'll take a while to compile. 'Cause quite frankly, I've agreed with almost everything he's said; it'd be easier to list the points he's raised that I DON'T agree with.

Yes, you are going to need to do this. I want on record what of his stances you 'agree' with. No, not passively showing what you disagree with. I want you committing to actual stances you will defend.

I not you don't address the fact that he's spent most of the day cropping posts out of context which is scummy as fuck. Do you not agree that selective taking single sentances from posts to show 'scum play' and ignoring whole paragraphs that counteract his accusations is scummy as hell?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also Mastin - you dodged the point about this being Multi-scum and having overlapping scum reads not being a Town tell. Why is that?

[MaguaofIllusion]

And

@MoI

Why did you make this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3942494, why is it different from the Fox claim?

Read the thread. I already answered kondi on this point.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Alright. Let's do it the easy way. What Zdenek has said which I don't agree with, via his ISO. Going most recent to earliest.

Um no. Cut the bullshit.

Either quote or link to specific points of Zdenek’s which you think are Pro-Town or get shot overnight. Your choice.

In theory? It should be. In practice? No, heck no; if anything, it's a towntell.

Again cut the bullshit. It’s not a Town-tell and your pussy-footing around whether it is actually scummy or not is noted.

He actually divided his scumreads into teams, mind you--a feat not even I have done yet. I had ideas (LMP and Tammy being on different teams among them), but as I've not read the whole game (19 and counting), I am not sure.

He on the other hand quite logically could explain who and why the members of each team are who he thinks they are--if anything, his scumreads are *better* than mine. If that doesn't make him town, then what would?

Oh, so he’s taken bullshitting without reason to a higher level than you like to? Glad to understand your thought process.

The bold is funny … no his reads are crap. Whether they are better than yours remains to be seen as to how bad your play is this game.

And once again I know you are dodging the point I keep bringing up – in a multiscum game the opposite scum team has EVERY incentive to ‘authentically’ scum hunt the opposing faction for Town cred. You know this. You utilized it in that Large Normal Werewolf game some time ago when you were scum. That you keep trying to avoid commenting on it says plenty to me about your alignment.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Norman and trekker continue to be wastes of space. Both should DIAF.

Let’s get some more votes on Zdenek! This lynch is within reach!!!!

Shadow1psc is still probably scum keeping a low profile. The suspicion on obv-Town Cooldog doesn’t hurt.

@MoS

– Ok, what is my alignment read from you at this point?

This screams scumbaggo!. Reads as wanting to keep ‘hands’ clean until thread to Zdenek appears. Strong relational tell pending Zdenek flip.

Also

@ Lord M

– you aren’t listing your reasons why Zdenek is Town. Do so now since you are happy to ask others to do the same for Foxace.

@Foxace

– If you are Town stop self-voting and make your vote useful. If you are scum please keep it parked on yourself.

--

...Or you can save me the trouble accept that Zdenek. is. town. I'm dead serious.

Nope.jpg.

Have a Zdenek scum read. Not ascribing to your “Town Town Town because he plays like a scumbag” philosophy.

Yet when I think about it, in all my games, I don't think I've ever seen it from scum. I've seen it plenty of times from town. Heck, I've DONE it as town. I've seen plenty of players do it as town--most importantly, I've seen Zdenek play this exact same way before as town--but never from scum, not in my over 50 games here. Hence, why it's a towntell.

Link me to games where Town Zdenek has taken quotes out of context in a scummy fashion to make terrible cases. I’d love to be able to read said games.

I’m curious how many of your vast 50 games (yes, that’s sarcasm) have you actually played with Zdenek.

And you're not listening to me. I've answered already. Sure, scum legitimately scumhunt in a multiscum game, but that wasn't the point. If that were the case, I could call any player attacking anyone in the game scummy, for any reason because "it's multiball; they could be scum hunting other scum!".

No, you are missing the point. You are saying “He’s scum-hunting so he’s Town” when it isn’t indicative of alignment in this environment.

I see your long ramble about how scum in this game have less reason to legitimately scum-hunt. That’s completely false. Regardless of the mechanics of departure scum can’t sit around and scum-hunt half-assely for fear of being hung themselves. Scum may not care about killing those not diametrically opposed but unless they are morons they certainly do care about appearing Town to survive. Especially given their numbers are expected to be weak in comparison to the set-up total number of players.

Zdenek: Over my dead body.

This can be arranged as necessary. Rope works just as well for you as it does for Zdenek. I have many other players I would rather see hung but if you are going to stake your life on the Zdenek issue ...

--

I'm so sorry, MoI. Your posts are quite frankly, insulting. I hate seeing them.

Life will go on. Do you find it insulting that I call you scum?

By downside do you perhaps mean the downside of tunnelling?

Wanna stop taking marijuana

and getting rid of that tunnel vision?

For someone so hurt by insults you seem happy to sling them, as bolded. Noted.

Not quite. I can't make frequent posts because I have a life. I don't happen to spend any major portion of my waking moments here.
So I post once every 24 or so hours, depending on homework etc.
And I can't chain-respond in convo form either, due to the fact that few people are in my timezone.

Where did I say you had to make frequent, chain posts to not be infrequently posting? Looking at your ISO you actually do make multiple posts on several occasions (3 and 4 in a day) with periods of prod-dodging interspersed.

Suffice it to say your 14 total posts is less than Empking so that’s not a point in your favour.

lulz yeah? Wagons form on norman plenty quickly and at some point norman was holding a clear majority.

Yeah, but the fact that you gave him a Town read specifically for a Page 2 wagon that didn’t exist says to me you are likely scum looking for an excuse to call a terrible player Town for cred.

I’ve busted scum doing this in the past, most recently MistBeauty in the wiped out “Kirby Mafia”.

I was saying how I made more logical and more reasonable posts as scum because I didn't feel like aggravating anyone and I really needed to avoid that noose. My posts are so much more logical and less note-like as scum. They're revised and edited multiple times. I made the point in bold to point out that your assumption "Logical post = town" is wrong.

So you are saying you play more scummy as Town. WTF good is that? You are effectively saying “I play against my Wincon as Town”.

Regarding Tunneling – I’ll just point out the part that you are asserting that isn’t valid:

It is not always a false assumption, but it can be blinding to new or better options that come along, because they do not match the player's "pet theory".

You’d need to show how I’m ignoring other options given I’m not even voting for you or making you the main focus of my posts for your accusation to hold water.

So as you can see all he's doing is jumping back and forth and saying Oh norman's scum no wait Fox is scum no wait...etc.
No arguments supported. Brilliant.

And yet you have a Town read on Norman who isn’t doing anything better. And you’ve also describe multiple other players (Emp and trekker come to mind) yet not a peep out of you re: them. It’s like you are tunnelling him

[MaguaofIllusion]

If Zdenenek is scum, Tammy is more likely scum.

I agree with this -- can't say for certain about other head. For Tammy to spend the whole day tunneling Zdenek and then put a vote onto someone who is definitively not being lynched this close to deadline, without any reasoning as to why she's avoiding voting Zdenek, is just bleah bleah bleah. We both had a town read on her up for most of D1, but now....meh.

In case we die tonight (perish the thought), we're dead serious about Norman and Cooldog both being town. Seriously serious. Other head believes that Norman is a liability even being town, and neither of us will shed a tear if he gets vigged, but, still, there you have it.

We also think Feysal is town, for Super Secret(tm) reasons that we won't go into.