Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[greenknight]

Norman, if you aren't trolling then kindly explain the point of asking people random questions that have nothing to do with the game.

[greenknight]

ManiacalLemon. You've earned yourself my distrust.

FoS: Lemons, MagnuaOfIllusion, Empking, Pine, and greenknight.

Until you 3 can tell me exactly why you're voting me, (exlcuding Lemons because I think he's trying to bluff me and make me think he's not a scumbag) you will remain on my FoS list.

As for Green Knight who recently asked why I'm asking these "random" questions... No these aren't random questions, genius, these are background checks and investigations.

So by the great power of deduction, your scum list and hunting abilities consists of people suspecting you? Is this correct?

What do you deduce from this?

Norman is clearly trolling. Sadly I don't think this behaviour makes him any more likely than the usual random chance to be scum.

Anyway, after reviewing the archive of the old thread,

Vote: AurorusVox

. I'm suspicious of the amount of buddying/alliance building he seemed to be doing.

[greenknight]

What do you think about the fact that AurorusVox backed LMPs argument that we should all claim with a wink that he had more information he'd share later if we wanted, and said that Feysal's claim completely fell apart in light of LMP's statement that Feysal gave good information for why his initial argument didn't work?

I didn't read anything significant into the particular fact that AV supported the idea of an alignment claim - it's more that AV was going, "I love this idea, I agree with X, Y is town" an awful lot more than what feels natural to me.

On that note, I'm a bit surprised that Zdenek is currently voting with me since he was calling me scum near the end of the previous incarnation of this thread.

[greenknight]

Tammy + Cooldog: You two have been keeping up with the discussion in thread. Why are you not voting?

re. Norman: At this point I get the feeling he could be a Jester type role because he's been going out of his way to antagonize people from the start. I don't trust him but I also have a hard time believing that a regular scum role would play this way.

Haze: why would Pine making a blank "I'll post something later" post sway you away from voting him?

Pine: making two "I'll post something later" posts in a row is scummy.

Tammy re. Zdenek: I was mainly reaction testing him in the previous thread, he didn't respond in a way that I would consider incriminating.

[greenknight]

Greenknight is tingling my scum-dar. He’s keeping a generally low profile, talking around any significant thread activities, and is taking the position re: Norman I expect from scum – one that allows them to lynch him later on when mislynches are running low.

I said I think Norman is unlikely to be scum, how on earth do you interpret that as setting up a future mislynch? It's particularly hypocritical given that in the same post you said the following:

Norman is a grade-A VI moron. Regardless of how Town he is per my other head he’s going to be actively helping the scum with his ‘antics’ until he’s dead. Mark my words … he’ll never be scum-killed. So if you want this string of stupidity to continue please feel free to not vote him.

Implying that Norman is of negative value to the town and therefore it's ok to policy lynch him... it looks to me like you're the one potentially promoting a future mislynch here.

(Also, policy lynches are a bad idea in this game, given that scum have 2 night kills to our 1 lynch and the scum are not in competition with each other. We can't afford to waste days just to lynch people for being annoying.)

[greenknight]

Guys, look at the Foxace wagon and tell me it doesn't reek.

Same could be said about the CooLDoG wagon to a lesser extent.

Do you mean that you read him as town, or that the players on him are scummy?

Out of the three current wagons (Norman, Foxace, Cooldog) I read Norman as genuinely acting in accordance with what he believes to be good scumhunting by trolling for responses especially after he toned down the trolling. I think Cooldog would be more clued in on the setup and the identity of players in the MoI hydra if he was scum. I'm undecided about Foxace.

You have experience with Norman, I assume this is his regular style so what is it that stands out to you as being scummy about his play?

[greenknight]

You specifically go out of your way to say he’s so scummy you can’t believe he’s normal scum and must be a jester. You know, the kind of statement that makes no sense and you can dismiss later with “Well, I guess I was wrong, he was regular scum” whenever you are needing that lynch not on your partners. Nice distancing from your own statement! You don't say he's Town but drop the "Too Scummy for Scum" fallacy.

WTF? I never said Norman was scummy, I said he was TROLLING. These two things are not correlated.

Scum are the ones who like to keep VIs around. They are pocket mislynches later on and distract Town Vigs from the task of shooting scum early in the game. The BEST time to policy lynch in a Large Theme game is Day 1. You get rid of a VI and get valuable information regardless of their flip.

On the contrary, scum love early policy lynches because it's so easy for them to blend in with the town with a vote that they don't have to justify. You're acting as if it's inevitable for town VIs to get mislynched. Which is nonsense. If you can't get a sense for the alignment of a VI after a few days, then you're not as good a player as you obviously think you are. Oh, and in this game half the town leaves after the first scum team is eliminated, resulting in a 50% chance that any given player won't see the endgame. If you policy lynch someone just because you don't want them in endgame, there's a 50% chance they wouldn't have been there regardless. So yes, policy lynching is particularly anti-town in this game.

The rest of your attack on me is laughably bad.

[greenknight]

@Greenknight - Why would scum love early policy lynches? They don't kill the ones who don't contribute/are VI's because they want them around. They nightkill the players who are actually playing the game, and leave the distractions alive to hide behind/manipulate in the end.

Because everyone on a policy lynch is essentially making the same argument, it leaves very few trails in the voting compared to a regular lynch where people have to justify why they personally think the target is scummy. Since the way in which people pursue their targets is a primary scum hunting resource, that's a lot of information lost from a town perspective at the point in the game where town has the least information.

Since you mentioned Trekker in this context, I think he is actually scummy due to the extreme non-interactivity of his posts to date and wouldn't really be a policy lynch...

Why did you feel the need to mention "when I flip town" in your argument with Zdenek? Do you think it's at all likely that you will be lynched today?

[greenknight]

AVox: You're under some suspicion due to buddying in the previous thread (being quick to call people town and propose voting alliances.) You claim to be proceeding under the assumption that PereV is town. Why him and what happened to your other town reads?

MoS: Stop trolling, there's enough of that in this game already. Thanks.

Pine: A bit convenient that you claimed the exact role whose existence we were speculating about during the roleclaim discussion in the previous thread, wouldn't you say?

[greenknight]

@greenknight, why are voting alliances scummy? PereV is town from way back and because he's one of the only people to see that NOT POSTING SINCE THE GAME STARTED = not actually ever looking at the thread, not "lolscum" and why would scumPere do that when he could fan the flames? I'm an easy mislynch and no mistake, so scum are guaranteed to have called me scum at some point. I can't remember who else I had a town read on. But if I ever had one on you, I don't any more. What's the purpose of your line to MoS other than to try to cover up your piss poor attack on Pine and myself?

This is a really scummy response. Note the following:

- player who supposedly has no time to read the thread watching closely enough to respond to suspicion against himself within 15 minutes.

- defensive overreaction. Preemptively stating the position that his lack of posting is not scummy when I never brought that up as a point against him. Vague assertion that scum are accusing him. Calls my asking him a question an attack.

- AV called me town in the old thread for scumhunting on Zdenek who was suspicious. I was poking at AV for a response in a similar way to how I poked Zdenek, and AV himself acknowledges that he is suspicious at the moment by calling himself "an easy mislynch." Suddenly I'm not town just because I'm trying to determine AV's own alignment instead of Zdenek's?

- note the double implication that I'm scum (scum are attacking me / if I ever had a townread on you I don't anymore) without calling me scum directly. Typical scum tactic to avoid being accused of OMGUS.

- brings up Pine and MoS to confuse the issue, when these parts of my post are obviously unrelated to my questioning AV. Also if he hasn't read the thread he has no basis to criticize my stance on anyone else for their actions earlier in the thread. So it looks like he's just trying to encourage Pine to attack me. Next post he himself mentions Pine:

ISO'ing the last few posts did show me Pine claiming for no reason, though?

- and yes, the fact that Pine claimed for no reason makes the content of the claim questionable.


To elaborate on the original suspicion of buddying. AV in the old thread called 6+ people town/proposed voting alliances/loved their posts. 1-2 instances of this behaviour would not be suspicious. However when applied to multiple people it looks as if AV is trying hard to create good first impressions, which count for a lot in mafia as in RL. This would therefore be a useful tactic for scum (Town players in general are less image conscious, because they know they are town) and I consider it a scumtell. Not an infallible one, but a starting point for questioning. It's the responses that tend to be more informative, and this one confirms my read of AV as scum. I encourage those unhappy with the current wagons to vote AV.


(as to MoS, I know he's capable of better play than what he is currently showing)

[greenknight]

My response to him was an explanation for why his argument falls apart and why he's wrong in his thinking. I included when I flip innocent, because it was the premise for the argument anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up (and consolidating your case against Zdenek in one place.)

[greenknight]

Me too...but that requires giving a fuck. I'll let you know if something piques my interest.

How about making yourself useful and voting AV then.

Green, I never said I'm not reading the thread closely, I said I'm not reading the 30 pages I missed out on. So suck it.

Actually I don't care if you read it or not, because you are scum.

Note: AV again trying to push the idea that his inactivity is the only reason he's considered scummy.

@Greenknight

– So you are inferring it’s scummy that Pine (no matter how dumb the claim timing / reasoning) has claimed a role highly speculated to be in the game and not currently counter-claimed. Do I have that right?

Remember Pine's initial RB claim in AFFC? Naturally I'm suspicious of another clumsy Pine claim since he has shown himself to be capable of playing dumb as scum. If pine is scum then he or one of his teammates needs to have the power, but it's certainly one that would be useful to both town and scum. Basically he doesn't get any townpoints for claiming and I view pine as mildly suspicious currently. As it stands though, he should not be lynched today because his claim commits him to providing hard information at a future time.

[greenknight]

@Greenknight

– In regards to Pine and AFFC I think you are mixing up Chesskid (who claimed RB) and Pine (who claimed JOAT, which he was). Please link me if I am wrong. Who suggested he was getting Town points for his claim? That’s a straw-man argument. His claim was terrible and anti-Town. Yet you were actively trying to infer it was directly scummy. Your wrapping it in meta doesn’t give me a feeling one way or the other.

Unfortunately half the history of AFFC is lost, but now that you mention it, I think it was actually chesskid that claimed and I did confuse them, yeah, which invalidates my meta argument. Claiming I was putting forward a strawman argument is nonsense though, since I was simply stating my opinion of Pine and not arguing with anyone about theirs...

[greenknight]

To quickly name some other reads, I like Zdenek rather more than Tammy. I have played with him as scum three times, and most recently with both of us town and mistakenly suspecting each other in Consulmaker III (the game has been canceled due to the crash). I can believe him making arguments like the ones he has been making here as town. That does not mean I would agree with them - I thought the points he was making against me in Consulmaker III were flawed too, more flawed than any case I've seen him make as actual scum.

Since you have some experience with him, would you say that Zdenek is a player with easily distinguishable town and scum styles?

[greenknight]

HazeScum, why do you say scum are likely to post infrequently but you've never once called me scummy?

Nice fabricated scum read there. Why on earth would Haze (who was afk) call you out for being afk?

[greenknight]

General reads on some of the names that have been brought up recently:

Avox - Scum

Foxace - Appears to be resigned to being lynched. I think the selfvote is scummy given the context that we'd already had someone else selfvoting in the game, but not foolproof since it's day 1 and I've seen town behave this way early on when they aren't yet emotionally invested in the game. Mild scum read

Tammy - Zdenek's basis for attacking her is wrong, I see her play so far as being consistent with a cautious town style (ask questions first, form opinions later, considering the possibility that her initial read on Zdenek might be incorrect.) None of the behaviour that Zdenek accuses her of strikes me as out of character for this style. Mild town read.

Zdenek - His style is drastically changed from AFFC where he was scum and played a low-impact lurky/sniping game. Not sure whether this is because he is town, or because he is scum who felt forced into changing his style to avoid further attacks based on meta. If the latter is true it could explain why his attacks on Tammy are bad (if he's trying to play combative scum.) Mild scum read.

MoI - I'm getting frustrated with his attempts to spin whatever position I take as somehow having an ulterior scum motive. It's starting to remind me of his scum play from AFFC where he mixed good observations with fabricated ones. Mild scum read.

MoS - Either lazy town - or scum taking advantage of the meta that he started AFFC by playing lazy town and figuring that he wouldn't take much heat for doing the same thing again. Mild scum read.

Trekker - Extremely non-interactive play - no explanation for reads/votes, avoiding any engagement with other players. Very convenient style to use if he's scum that doesn't want to draw connections with anyone. Probably figures he can get away with it against a backdrop of other players trolling. Has quietly slipped into lurker mode after his name was brought up as suspicious a few times. Moderate scum read.

Lord Mhork - Fluff posting. I agree with MoI on this one. Mild scum read.

[greenknight]

@Greenknight

– my reference to a Strawman argument was in reference to the specific statement “Basically he doesn't get any townpoints for claiming and I view pine as mildly suspicious currently.”

You’d need to point me to the post where I indicated that Pine WAS getting Town points for his claim.

Am I attacking anyone for holding the position that Pine gets town points for claiming? Am I even implying that YOU said Pine was getting town points? No. So how can you say that I'm making a strawman argument?

[greenknight]

Can we please just lynch that?

HAH! I laugh at you Shadow, but you can't you know why? Because I'm no longer part of your assembly, you piece of shit. You can try to lynch me all you want but you know deep down that I cannot be for I am diplomtically immune!

Hahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha HA! IN YOUR FACE SHADOW! YEAH! SUCK ON IT!

This is amusing but not very helpful.

Care to give us some reads on the current suspects instead?

[greenknight]

Can we please just lynch that?

HAH! I laugh at you Shadow, but you can't you know why? Because I'm no longer part of your assembly, you piece of shit. You can try to lynch me all you want but you know deep down that I cannot be for I am diplomtically immune!

Hahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha HA! IN YOUR FACE SHADOW! YEAH! SUCK ON IT!

This is amusing but not very helpful.

Care to give us some reads on the current suspects instead?

Why are you trying to get

anything

out of Norman?

Because Norman claimed that his playstyle is based on trolling to get reads. He's gotten plenty of responses to his trolling so he should have developed some reads by now.

[greenknight]

I've ben "exactly" what he called scum
Contrbuting little
In the way of etc

BUT NOT
FUCKING
AFK

Not posting in the first 30 pages = afk

[greenknight]

Alright. Let's try something different.

Everyone:

That's every single other player in the game.
I want, in your own words, your summary of how the game has gone so far.

First half of the day was dominated by trolling but we're finally getting some good discussion going.

At the same time, I'd also like you to tell me how many scum you think are in the game--I know this game is a lil' unusual, but I imagine that there is a scum faction out there.
And of course, who they are--not a single person; I want you to give me a whole team. Plus of course the reasoning you think they're scum together.

3+3.

I listed scumreads in a recent post. I don't have enough strong reads for speculation on who might be partners with whom to be meaningful at this time.

Anyone:

Are there any claims I should be made aware of?

Pine claims to be a CG lawful-chaotic cop, that's the main one

[greenknight]

@Greenknight

– You may claim you are not implying that I was giving Pine Town-points but your response read to me as you were. Otherwise it’s just fluff that you would have been better avoiding posting in the first place. I choose to believe you are competent and thus did it for a reason.

WTF... it's not fluff. It's totally relevant. You were questioning me regarding my stance towards Pine and I was clarifying my position.

[greenknight]

Im the only player that has a chance of being lynched before the deadline so why should I even bother trying to convince everyone to lynch someone else at this point? I think it be better that Im lynched so we can avoid a no lynch.

You do realise that a large part of the reason people are voting for you is because of your defeatist self-voting right? Posting stuff like this is just a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you are town, it's not too late to make a case for yourself. Two days is enough time to find an alternative lynch.

[greenknight]

Shadoweh - If you want a Jackal wagon, why are you voting Foxace? This doesn't make sense to me.

Besides how Foxace is prod dodging, there doesn't seem to be interest in the wagon. If this Foxace wagon dissolved right now it would be highly likely to fall on two people I am certain should not be lynched ever, nevermind Day 1.

Why have YOU not made a case against jackal yourself? You've had plenty of time to do so.

[greenknight]

Since you have some experience with him, would you say that Zdenek is a player with easily distinguishable town and scum styles?

I only have the one game where I saw Zdenek as town, but I have played against him as scum three times. Based on those, my opinion of his scum play is that it is cautious to the point of being lurky. Currently he is being rather more proactive and belligerent than I'm used to seeing from him as scum.

To give a short answer, I believe his styles are quite distinct, and this is far more likely to be him as town.

Ok, the reason I asked was that in AFFC he was lurky/unreadable scum and I wanted to get an idea whether that was Zdenek's standard scum game and whether he plays that way as town. The reason I picked Zdenek to meta-attack at the start of the old thread was because I wanted to push him out of the same style if he happened to be scum again. If his normal scum style is passive, I think he could well be scum out of his comfort zone this game, and trying too hard to play against his established meta by forcing aggression based on weak arguments.

Vote: Zdenek

[greenknight]

@People who keep saying "BUT OMG WE MIGHT END UP WITH A NO LYNCH"... stop it. There are enough vaguely competent players in this game not to let that happen.

@Zdenek: for example, asking questions is not a scum tell in isolation. You repeatedly insisting that it is doesn't make it one. Doing very little apart from asking questions can be a scum tell, but that's not the case here. IMO you haven't shown scum intent in her questions. Changing reads and accepting the possibility that the player you're accusing might be town isn't a scum tell either, especially not on day 1.

@Mastin: You agree with everything Zdenek has said regarding Tammy?

[greenknight]

Getting the feeling that Foxace-scum would have taken the opportunity to get on the Zdenek wagon or at least park his vote on one of his scumlist, especially since we've been repeatedly telling Foxace to quit with the selfvoting so he had every excuse to do so. I also don't like the fact that a bunch of people hopped on the wagon for no reason other than "we might end up with a no-lynch otherwise." Reluctant to lynch him but will still do so rather than no-lynch if we have no other choice.

@Zdenek regarding potentially scummy questions - I was one of the people Tammy questioned (I remember my name being mentioned near the start of your fight), and I didn't get the impression that her questions were leading/defending. She had me on her suspect list around that time so it's also not the case that she wasn't taking stances.

would also support a lynch of Trekker whom I read as active-lurking scum. Or Avox.

[greenknight]

I've got a problem. I don't think either of our wagons is on scum, and time is running out. At this point, if I had to choose between the two, I'd rather vote Foxace. I am more confident in my Zdenek town read, I am unfamiliar with Foxace and there is more potential for surprise in his play, and Zdenek is in fact contributing something useful while Foxace has gone into defeatist mode. I would rather lynch someone other than these two. MoI is a given, as should be obvious from my vote. AV is another, due in part to his drunk posting and the absurdity of suggesting sheeping Mastin before he even knew which slot he replaced in. Then there is Jackal, whose recent posts have rung alarm bells.

My scumread on Zdenek isn't very strong right now because there's been a surprising (to me) amount of support voiced for his "questions are scummy" position, which increases the likelihood that it's a town stance that I disagree with as opposed to aggro scum.

I would prefer to lynch AV but I'm not sure if it's possible today, as I wasn't able to get people to vote him earlier.

[greenknight]

If Zdenenek is scum, Tammy is more likely scum.

Unfortunately we won't be lynching Zdenenek so we won't know this, but the good news is that fortunately we'll be lynching foxface who has a good chance to be scum. Also I think Tammy is town, so there's that.

Explain that conclusion please? I don't get it.

[greenknight]

Trying to start discussion on why there's a missing kill helps only scum. At best it's a distraction, at worst some PR outs themselves

Vote: Avox

[greenknight]

Wait. How was what I said remotely role fishing?

A positive from a Doctor coming out could come from someone's role.

Don't be dense. If anyone's rolefishing here it's AV.

[greenknight]

@Mastin- say what?

what?
The wagon on AV stinks. AV's awesome. And town. AV's also the counterwagon to Cooldog, which supports the "AV town" theory quite nicely.

AurorusVox (5) - Haze, Junpei, Shadoweh,

MoS

, Lord Mhork

There's AT LEAST one scum in there.

This is a bad post.

- Says AV is awesome but doesn't answer his survey question

- Defends AV as town without giving any reason for the read

- Counterwagon argument is weak in a 2 scumteam game; each scum team controls less of the vote, and even if CD is scum it doesn't preclude AV from being on the other scum team

- Saying there's at least 1 scum from the "5" people on the AV wagon (actually there were 6 at the time because he missed me) when statistically you'd expect 1 scum in any random group of 4 people anyway.

[greenknight]

re. AV's defence of his play today I still don't like it.

Firstly, the interest in discussing missing night kills is typically more of a scum perspective than town, scum have more of a motivation to find out WHY a kill failed and what they're up against, whereas town are simply happy that scum missed out on a kill. And it's not necessary for scum to actually induce a claim in order to rolefish successfully; many town players who draw PR have a tendency to unintentionally give themselves away in these discussions. For example, as scum in AFFC I identified both town vigs very early on because of offhand comments they made regarding vigs.

Secondly, even if one is to scumhunt by the tone of posts, I don't see the point of artificially generating content by asking a question with an obvious right answer on day 2 to "lock people into taking a position" when there's already plenty of material from day 1 to scrutinize. And AV's choice of question has the effect of drawing attention back to the missing nightkill.

[greenknight]

Pine, why would you NOT investigate your top suspect Zdenek after he alignment-claimed and didn't get lynched day 1?

[greenknight]

Vote Count 2.2

Tammy (1) -

Zdenek

CooLDoG (6) -

AurorusVox, Empking, trekker, Shadow1psc, Moneybags, mastin2

Zar (1) -

Tammy

trekker (1) -

CooLDoG

Zdenek (2) -

Jackal711, Pine

AurorusVox (5) -

Haze, Junpei, Shadoweh, Lord Mhork, brizingre1

Shadow1psc (1) -

Zar

Not Voting (7) - Ooba, Feysal, greenknight, BBmolla, PeregrineV, Norman, Mastermind of Sin

Easter is now over, prodding Feysal, ooba and Norman.

(expired on 2012-04-21 00:00:00)
With 24 alive, 13 are needed to secure a lynch.

I am voting AVox,

confirm vote: Avox

[greenknight]

My point, your role doesn't really help the town. Why would a non-bastard mod give town a power role that they really could only use to check claims with? And any sane scum would claim the correct alignment because you claimed your exact role with

one

vote

on you

. SO your role has zero usefulness for the town. It would be useful for scum, seeing as it lets them pick their night kills more selectively so that they win the game faster. Scum like you should think more about what they are going to claim, and when.

It's a perfectly reasonable town role. Did you not follow the discussion in the old thread surrounding alignment claims?

[greenknight]

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town.

Faulty logic, as you might be LE scum.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

Oh? Then why didn't you investigate Zdenek to prove he is lying about being chaotic?

[greenknight]

Greenknight: You don't investigate your chief suspects. That's just bad Cop work. You investigate people you have no solid read on. Go read Mastin's article on good Cop usage.

Ok I missed this earlier. I don't agree this is good strategy, when a day 1 lynch attempt on the top suspect has already failed, getting hard evidence on him so that he will actually get lynched seems the obvious thing to do to me. I suspect arguing about this with you is a waste of time, however, especially due to the lolroleblock.

Why did you wait until you got mod clarification before joining the discussion though? Did knowing whether you were blocked or not affect your reads?

[greenknight]

Actually, I don't believe I ever said that. I don't see the value in doing what you're suggesting. The vast majority of people, scum included, are going to be telling the truth about their ethical (Law vs Chaos) alignment. They have little reason to lie about it, and the risk of being caught in said lie makes it just plain not worth it. What you're arguing for me to do here is waste my entire power, for the rest of the game, confirming that people are telling the truth when they have no incentive to lie. That's ridiculous.

Ok Pine listen up assuming you are town. Because you clearly don't get it. Scum RBing you indicates that they consider you a threat and this is why.

Scum have a strong incentive to lie about their lawful/chaoticness because, assuming that town are telling the truth, it identifies them as a non-threat to the other scum faction so that they don't get crosskilled. An argument you should be familiar with, since you are saying that CE scum would ignore you.

The entire reason your ability makes any sense for town is because it forces scum to choose between the risk of being caught lying and the risk of being crosskilled.

So yes, you SHOULD be using your power as a lie detector, to investigate people that have claimed or are likely to be forced to claim.

Besides, you can't reveal the alignment of people who have not claimed without dividing town / helping scum coordinate kills anyway.

[greenknight]

Empking is strongly playing to his Town meta. He's just someone you have to get used to.

Well this Emp town meta doesn't look like one which is hard to fake as scum since Emp hasn't done much apart from bandwagoning. As such, he is on my list of passive scum suspects. In fact Emp hadn't made any good posts until this:

I don't think the arguments against Pine are at all valid. I see no reason for scum to claim to do something that they know to be unoptimal and I see no reason for scum-Pine to have a different view of his claimed role that town-Pine does. That's not an argument for his being town (though he obviously is) but it doesn't make sense for an argument against his being town either.

I agree with this. Scum Pine would try to take the same position he would as town.

Wow, this degenerated fast, but I see CoolDog is still not hunting scum. I'm really wary of Pine's jump there, my jury is still out on his claim and disposition at this point. I'm having a real problem wrapping my head around the implications of power roles in this particular game, it gives me great pause towards Pine, because he didn't seem to grasp the implications of 'investigating MoI', then he turns around and suddenly understands everything forever about the implications of roleblocking and scum motivation, like maybe he has someone on the scum team coaching him.

This entire post is wrong. CD is scumhunting against pine. And Pine being clueless about the implications of his role has not changed.

(Also Pine's claim makes sense within the realms of the set-up. We'll realise eventually due to SET-UP SPEC if he's a cop anyway. People really shouldn't be voting him.

[/quote]

Yeah, now that Pine's claim involves the interaction of a second PR (and he hasn't been counterclaimed) it's going to be difficult for him to keep the act up as the game progresses if he is scum.

[greenknight]

Yay, we have a hydra that agrees with itself

[greenknight]

Repost for PereV

Ok Pine listen up assuming you are town. Because you clearly don't get it. Scum RBing you indicates that they consider you a threat and this is why.

Scum have a strong incentive to lie about their lawful/chaoticness because, assuming that town are telling the truth, it identifies them as a non-threat to the other scum faction so that they don't get crosskilled. An argument you should be familiar with, since you are saying that CE scum would ignore you.

The entire reason your ability makes any sense for town is because it forces scum to choose between the risk of being caught lying and the risk of being crosskilled.

So yes, you SHOULD be using your power as a lie detector, to investigate people that have claimed or are likely to be forced to claim.

Besides, you can't reveal the alignment of people who have not claimed without dividing town / helping scum coordinate kills anyway.

[greenknight]

I'd like to take a moment to ask where the FUCK are these players?

04. PeregrineV
07. ooba
15. BBmolla
16. Shadoweh
18. Norman
19. Jackal711
20. Lord Mhork
25. Zar

Especially Jackal711, BBmolla, ooba, and Norman, who all have not posted more recently than Foxace -_-

Vote: BBmolla

I know he's been reading and posting in the Theme Park forum, so where the fuck is he in this game?

And no, don't think I'm letting this Tammy-Zdenek thing go.

^Nowhere in here is there anything where you state that you think I'm scum.

You voted me for lurking when you had scumreads on Tammy-Zdenek. You are scum.

MoS' vote made you stop lurking by your own admission (Since when is scanning the thread for mentions of your own name valid town play anyway?), therefore it was pro-town. Your reaction is OMGUS and doesn't make you look any better. Now stop making excuses and develop some reads.

[greenknight]

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk.

Because if you're LE and claimed to be a LG PR you'd be an obvious target for CE scum to kill... And you own the L/C detecting role anyway making it unlikely that someone else has one.

Also how you can be unaware of Zdenek's CG claim when I brought it up before asking you why you didn't investigate Zdenek boggles me.

[greenknight]

I actually think we should lynch AV and force Pine to investigate Zdenek.

[greenknight]

Here's my reasoning:

I'm really confused as to whether Pine is town or scum. I believe he is telling the truth about being RBed and therefore at least 1 scum faction considers Pine to be a threat. This is because feigning a RB with a scumpartner would be useless, as the partner couldn't claim RB without being instantly lynched (no town roleblocker would have used their ability on pine.)

Therefore if we don't lynch Pine, he becomes scum's problem.

If pine investigates zdenek and comes back with a lawful result, then we know 100% that at least one of them is scum and can decide tomorrow.

I do not see Zdenek and Pine being scum partners, so even if Pine is scum he has no incentive to lie about Zdenek's L/C alignment.

[greenknight]

Exactly. Not telling the truth about being role blocked is a great way for him not to reveal results to the town. It also allows him to investigate other people other than the people that we could possibly force him to check (as GK's idea mandates). It can get his team even more information while he continues to bullshit the town.

If he faked a RB role that doesn't exist to do what you suggest, not only would it auto-confirm him as scum should the other sub-game end without a RB on the other scum team, but he could be easily exposed by tracking/watching etc

What? You see that Pine is lying about what he knows and you don't want to lynch him?

I don't know if he is scum playing dumb or town being dumb. His claim makes it more likely that he'll be exposed in the course of play if he is scum. I believe he also drew a RB. these factors say to me that we shouldn't lynch pine today

got to run, more later

[greenknight]

Meanwhile, back on the subject of AV, he is scum because his reactions are scum reactions, the main ones being:

AV reenters the game @ page 30 or so, immediately acts overdefensive, says scum would be voting him because he's an "easy mislynch" and keeps drawing attention to the fact of his own inactivity as if to say "hey I'm talking about how my own behaviour is scummy so I can't be scum!". He made another WIFOM post to that effect today.

AV reaction to night 1 results, immediate interest in finding out why there's a missing night kill is scummy, asking a survey-type question with an obvious answer about whether doctor should claim isn't good for anything but rolefishing. In any case after 3 or so people answer he immediately uses it as an excuse to jump onto the CD wagon for awful reasons, so I don't buy his explanation that he was asking the question to scumhunt.

[greenknight]

On a completely different note and I am terribly sorry for this but
My computers are locked iin my house as part of a police investigation so I am going to be V/LA for at least 2 Days. I'm likely to be around from other people's computers but for some reason I might not be concentrating on the game. >_> (reposted for informativve purposes)

Since when do cop investigations roleblock people? we should lynch this person for lying

[greenknight]

Pine, you have to at least agree to not reveal the alignments of anyone who has not claimed themselves.

Because your argument that chaotic people should ignore other chaotic people could just as well be reversed for lawfuls... if everyone followed your logic, anyone who had their L/C status revealed would be unlynchable because half the town just ignored them

[greenknight]

Wow, that's...really valid. Not the accusation, that's bullshit, but the massclaim speculation. With scum being forced to lie, then I could actually function as a full Cop.

The problem is that that's the FIRST TIME anyone's come up with that. Despite having pages and pages of discussion. If it were as obvious as you're pretending, someone would have come up with it a long tine ago. So give yourself some credit, cut me some slack, and let's discuss it's merits (and drawbacks).

We can get most of the benefits of a massclaim with the status quo where only suspicious players are being forced to claim and can be exposed to the threat of an alignment lie-check. And you don't announce who you investigated if they haven't claimed yet.

It's DEFINITELY not worth massclaiming with your identity exposed, it will split town

[greenknight]

MoS > BB

Shadoweh > Mhork

reading Pine's reactions to pressure over the last couple of days as townish

Zdenek also sounds less scummy today

starting to get a bad feeling about Mastin, his reads/voting look rather arbitrary

[greenknight]

GK why is zdenek less scummy, in other news I will be staying.

Zdenek was scummy on day 1 for pushing Tammy for bad reasons which read as aggro-scum. His posts today feel more natural

MoS > BB

Shadoweh > Mhork

Please forgive my stupidity, but are you saying MoS looks scummier than BB or BB looks scummier than MoS?

Same goes for Shadoweh and Mhork.

I think MoS is better (more town) than BB, his vote on BB was perfectly legitimate as I said earlier and I don't like the counterattack from BB. And Shadoweh is more town than Mhork, neither of those two is a particularly strong read but the constant whining from Mhork rubs me the wrong way.

[greenknight]

Pine's town, my read is that scum Pine would have continued to play the idiot card regarding the usage of his role until the end since people had already started defending him.

Currently willing to lynch AV, BB, Mastin, Nacho (c/o trekker)

@PereV: what distinguishes Jackal from the other lurkers as your #1 scumread?

@people saying AV is town: explain your read, discussion concerning this major wagon has been noticeably lacking

[greenknight]

CD lynch clearly isn't happening. Because a lot of us happen to agree that he's town. Move your votes somewhere else.

[greenknight]

BB lynch is 'meh' for me but it seems like it's the only lynch that everyone can agree on, at least before the deadline - so I'm going to

VOTE:BBMolla

.
Town seems to have split in 2 over whether CoolDog is town or not, lets just assume for the moment that he's town and try and reach a productive lynch before deadline.

If you want more relational info vote AV then. No one has even attempted to refute the scumtells I have on him, and I believe a few people who weren't voting him still have him on their scum lists

Or Mastin, whom I just ISOed, who has been more concerned with "sounding town" than doing ANY scumhunting whatsoever.

[greenknight]

If I were a vig I'd totally shoot mastin. /hint hint.

Why are you suggesting he be vigged rather than lynched, when you're currently looking for alternative lynches?

[greenknight]

Both lead wagons stink. AV's among my strongest townreads. As is to a lesser extent, BBMolla. I might not remember much about the game, but I remember that much.

Why are they town reads?

Do you expect to convince anyone of anything by posting lists of reads with no explanation?

Do you really think that LB would replace in and immediately draw connections with his scum partners by calling them town?

[greenknight]

But BBMolla replaced Skenvoy, who if memory serves was as good as confirmed town in the original thread.

Skenvoy looked town based on 5 (out of 88) pages at the start of the game where he was under no pressure at all, so his replacement gets a free pass?

AV's posts have had multiple towntells in them, and have overall shown a town mindset, bringing up multiple good points and in general being a fairly logical player, with solid reads.

You do realise this is still vague and non-specific? What did you make of AV's behaviour at the start of day 2 then, specifically surrounding the "doc claim" issue?

They have many posts containing towntells, solid reasoning, show a town mindset, bring up multiple good points fairly logically and have good suspects. Their wagon has most of my scumspects, along with many null or weaker townreads, making both stink of being scumdriven. Add in POE, and I have every reason to believe neither wagon's on scum.

Let's have a look at their reads then:

BB reads: Scum MoS/AV, town CD/pine/tammy

- the only one he agrees with you on there is MoS

AV reads: want to lynch Pine/BB/Mhork, backup CD, town tammy

- there's pine and CD scum so 2 out of 5

so I don't see where you're coming from with "they have good suspects." (also, they're voting each other, so you saying that they have good suspects undermines your position that the wagons are scum driven)

As for logical posts/solid reasoning, those are not reliable town tells in themselves without associated flips because strong players are capable of making logical posts both when playing as town and scum. Not that BB has been making much in the way of logical posts anyway.

See the thing is.. you aren't doing anything to try and restart the Pine wagon or get your other suspects lynched (trying to arrange them into teams certainly doesn't count), you are just defending people, and your defences have little substance to them. The fact that you're even bringing up the idea of PoE on day 2 of a 26 player game reinforces that impression.

I don't think you actually care who gets lynched. So long as they're not on your team. After all, you can just defend people and have a 6/7 chance of looking good when they flip.

unvote, vote: Mastin

[greenknight]

ISOed Shadoweh and don't feel strongly about her one way or the other. Sounded town start of day 2, but the rest of it is pretty much null

unvote, vote: AV

[greenknight]

1) In Post 928 you say that Zdenek is playing differently to your scum meta on him and that you think he might be scum changing his playstyle to defy meta but you also state that MoS is scum that's trying to mimmic his town playstyle. Mind telling me why you think either of these things are more likely then just the obvious "Zdenek is playing differently to when he was scum and thus is town" and the "MoS is playing to his town meta thus is probably town" thought process?

2) In Post 1069 you get a response from Feysal saying that this looks like Zdeneks town playstyle and that his playstyle is relatively different, I understand that you claim that you've 'rustled his feathers out of his normal playstyle' but why is it you vote him at this point when someone tells you that he's probably town?

I was scum in AFFC mafia with Zdenek, Pine, Shadow1p and MoI who are also playing in this game, it's expected that we would pay more attention to each other than normal as a fair amount of conversation in the scum QT for that game concerned us going according to "what I would do if I was town." And thus Zdenek would be expected to change style if he was scum, because if he played in a lurky unreadable fashion a la AFFC we'd lynch him. The reason I asked Feysal about Zdenek's town meta was actually because if Zdenek typically played lurky-town then his aggressive activity this game would have been more suspicious.

As for MoS, I don't really know on the basis of 1 game if trolling on day 1 is a regular part of his town game. I felt his trolling in this game was anti-town, given the amount of noise already being generated by, for example, Norman.

[greenknight]

You brought up Vanillaside. The first thing I think about when I think of that game is him. (I think I'm getting games mixed up too.)

No matter how bad Tiphaine's reads are she's not going to stop being town. That's exactly why I'm not paying attention to her, so I stop second guessing.

>___> Have you considered rereading anyways, because that's what you should do as town? Or do you just not care what happens after you die?

Really trying to figure out how someone who has just admitted that she's not going to pay attention to a certain person's posts can in the very next post tell someone that re-reading is something one should do as town.

That's actually pretty bad on Shadoweh's part.

Regardless I'm still more convinced about AV, the stuff PereV quoted concering him from the old thread was a bunch of setup discussion that I don't regard as a town tell.

If I can't get that lynch I'll move tomorrow as necessary. If deadline was in 1 hour I'd vote Shadoweh over BB for information as it stands, because the scum tells against BB are admittedly pretty generic lurking and OMGUSing. I would however like to see a response from Shadoweh.

[greenknight]

Why is Nacho scum?

I have no idea how many votes I'm at so I'm just going to cut this shit down.
I claim

Lawful Good Cleric.

I have a protect that only works on players that share my alignment. That's why I'm sure Pine is telling the truth about his restriction.

Ooh want to guess who I protected? I claimed it already.

I don't believe this claim at all because the ability makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER in a D&D flavour context. Anyone who has played the game should know that D&D protection spells, such as Protection from Evil, protect based on the ATTACKER'S alignment.

Also, I do not believe that if you're a town doctor you are stupid enough to tell the scum that you protected Tammy when there was a missing nightkill in your response to AV at the start of the day. The only reason you'd do that was if you're a VT trying to draw scum attention to yourself (Which is clearly not the case) or if you're scum setting up a fakeclaim.

You are confirmed scum. Die.

unvote, vote: Shadoweh

[greenknight]

Obviously as the doctor I would not want you to talk about me protecting Tammy last night. <--- This is a blatant lie. Or is it?

A real doctor would not have posted this.

Faraday it's my turn to tell you to get your vote back on Shadoweh.

[greenknight]

Moneybag, Tammy, Nacho, Regfan, Tiph, Haze

You should be ashamed of yourself for unvoting Shadoweh based on that terrible claim

Get your votes back on her, she needs to die

[greenknight]

Haze: A player under pressure made a claim with not one but two glaring holes in it. Auto lynch.

Why is Nacho scum?

I have no idea how many votes I'm at so I'm just going to cut this shit down.
I claim

Lawful Good Cleric.

I have a protect that only works on players that share my alignment. That's why I'm sure Pine is telling the truth about his restriction.

Ooh want to guess who I protected? I claimed it already.

I don't believe this claim at all because the ability makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER in a D&D flavour context. Anyone who has played the game should know that D&D protection spells, such as Protection from Evil, protect based on the ATTACKER'S alignment.

Also, I do not believe that if you're a town doctor you are stupid enough to tell the scum that you protected Tammy when there was a missing nightkill in your response to AV at the start of the day. The only reason you'd do that was if you're a VT trying to draw scum attention to yourself (Which is clearly not the case) or if you're scum setting up a fakeclaim.

You are confirmed scum. Die.

unvote, vote: Shadoweh

[greenknight]

Tammy, here's a spell list I googled

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spells

The protection spells function as I described them, and not according to Shadoweh's claim. I bet you can't actually find me one spell in that list that discriminates based on the protected target's alignment.

Even if you believe THAT, for Shadoweh to be town, you have to believe that Shadoweh not only protected you, but proceeded to claim it for no reason, thus unambiguously identifying herself to whichever scum team whose kill she supposedly blocked

in the middle of a discussion about rolefishing and how obvious it was that the doc shouldn't claim...

[greenknight]

no

unvote

vote: Shadoweh

stay the course you fucks

what are the odds our fucking lynches are all prs

ZIPEDEE DO DA

LYNCH SHADOWEH
LYNCH PINE WITH FIRE TOMORROW.

g fucking g

This reasoning is stupid. Also, flavor arguments are bad.

you're stupid. Or Shadoweh's scum partner. Not sure which

[greenknight]

Why didn't Shadoweh give the name of her spell?

Because she doesn't have one.

[greenknight]

GG all. Thanks in particular to Seacore for keeping the game running smoothly through replacement hell.

I still think the setup was overall scum sided for much the same reasons as Regfan. (I feel that chaotic town apathy towards lynching a lawful player was a major factor in the day 5 TD speed lynch.) The PR ratios are pretty much what would be expected in a 10:3 game after all, and the half-doctors and L/C cop are fairly weak roles pre-massclaim. CE were playing well but got very unlucky with night actions, and LE really can't complain about the Pine scan because they failed to kill him earlier.

I felt town as a whole did a good job of scum hunting on day 2 after a very unproductive day 1.

[greenknight]

It definitely felt different as Lawful, there was a strong desire to NOT be killed fmpov, as we were already 3 down when I replaced in. So being a bit more annoying/weird to try and dodge that seemed like a good strategy early on.

Yeah... I definitely felt you were playing weird on purpose and it made you harder to read. Survival play being incentivized in this way is another reason I believe dual towns to be inherently scum sided.

Feysal, I thought MoI was suspicious too because he attacked me in a way I felt was pretty contrived which reminded me of his scum play in AFFC. I might well have protected the hydra if not for this. I thought you were the 1 person in the entire game who was clearly town on day 1 and thus a likely target for scum either trying to protect or frame MoI.

[greenknight]

Well, just looked through the scum QT and regardless of the criticism over his tactics I'd like to thank Mastin for keeping detailed notes in the scum QT after his partners were dead, it's always an interesting read.

Surprised to find out that my flavour police cover-argument for lynching Shadoweh actually worked, we'd all assumed in the dead QT that CE had figured out that I was a PR but really I just got killed because I was onto Mastin.