Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Pine]

Damn you MoI. I read 22 and practically squealed with glee at finding scum on page 1. But you pointed it out before I could

Seriously, 22 is completely useless, and worse, it's willfully obstructive.

Vote: Norman

[Pine]

Hell, forgot to bookmark. Will catch up in the morning.

[Pine]

Vote: Pine
Reason: The way this guy orders his suspects is goddamn suspicious. I mean I know there's probably like one scumbag down at that last near me but there could be one on top.

Are you drunk or just confused?

I haven't even finished catching up (blame midterms), much less put my suspects in any kind of order. This is pure OMGUS masquerading as reasoning.

[Pine]

Pine

Are you fucking serious?

I had made exactly one post prior to this. One. Which was an early suspicion of the current leading wagon.

And yet, you decided to more or less ignore anyone else and focus entirely on me, capitalizing on my absence.

You've referenced Epic Mafia, so I can't figure out whether this is general idiocy, or the completely ass-backwards and bad meta you've picked up from that site.

Reading right now to more fully catch up. I really can't stand these threads that put out several pages in the course of a day, then get pissy with people who are constantly behind. Stop reveling in your own waste, shut the fuck up, and let others catch up.

[Pine]

I didn't take tabs of people watching the thread. Pine was the only person I occasionally checked for as he was the person I was waiting to question.

Dammit. This was supposed to be the quote for above. My browser sometimes substitutes the search for the quote when I do CTRL+F

[Pine]

Fuck you, asshat.

[Pine]

Pretty much don't want to play this game anymore. People like Norman just make Mafia un-fun.

I'm a Chaotic Good Bard. I can Detect Law every night in search of the LE faction.

[Pine]

Which is odd, actually, as 3.5 Bard has no alignment-detection spells on the standard list.

[Pine]

Pretty much don't want to play this game anymore. People like Norman just make Mafia un-fun.

I'm a Chaotic

Good

Bard. I can Detect Law every night

in search

of the LE faction.

Pray tell, how does detecting Law help you search for the LE faction as opposed to simply lawful players in general (ie, half the game)?

Read the bold. I win if I eliminate the LE faction.

[Pine]

In other words, if you're LG, I have nothing against you, as we aren't competing, but neither are we allied. Stay out of my way and I'll try staying out of yours, but don't fuck with the CG vs LE fight.

PE: Actually, Norman, considering you claimed LG, I don't really care about you anymore. If you're LG, then we're not opponents. If you're CE, we aren't opponents. Go do your own thing, stop spamming the thread, and fuck off.

PE2: Of course it's useful in helping

my faction

win. Law detected=possible opponent. Chaotic detected=not an opponent.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

No reason to be voting Norman anymore. Foxace's bizarre tunneling behavior is just ridiculously bad.

[Pine]

Norman, I'll tell you to fuck off all I like. You're annoying, spammy, you make me want to replace out of a game I've been anticipating for half a year and was the first pre/in for, and you helped force a Cop to claim on D1 mostly out of OMGUS and because midterms are kicking my ass.

So fuck you.

[Pine]

You people questioning the timing of my claim - are you nuts? There was a wagon on me, picking up steam, led by morons who had no good reasons but were getting support from smart people that could actually make it happen. I straight up don't have time to keep up with the pace of a frantic lynch mob with midterms (though they're coming to a close soon) and if I'd waited to claim, it would have been ignored. My only option was either get really intense, really fast with this thread (which was impractical for me) or stop it dead in its tracks.

628 and 629 are practically scum claims.

[Pine]

Hrm. You have a point. I suppose it's an artifact of presuming that fakeclaiming scum claim their opposite. Would make sense though.

In Norman's specific case, though, he softclaimed LG Paladin, and softclaimed it hard. In the absence of a counterclaim, I'm not interested in pursuing him further, though I won't weep tears of blood when he gets killed by the CE scum.

[Pine]

It was at like 8, asshat, with another three or four who agreed but hadn't hopped yet. Shit, it's still at 5 or 6 or something.

Pay the fuck attention. Almost every active player had sheeped onto Foxace's and Norman's bullshit allegations, taking my silence and lack of refutation as a scumclaim.

CoolDog, if you want people to stop publicly blacklisting you, grow a brain.

[Pine]

Kondi, why do you even play this game? I'm not as good as I'd like to be, but at least I fucking try.

[Pine]

Okay, I'm sick to fuck of people saying I claimed "for no reason". Imagine you're me, and you're 20 pages behind. You've posted like twice, and are skimming along trying to keep up. And you see this:

Scum
----

Pine - Because I'm bitter over AFFC. Also, #37 sucks. But mostly AFFC.
VOTE: Pine

Vote: Pine

I believe in the power of Team Mo_!

lol wtf was totally gonna vote pine too until 338. If I voted him it wouldn't really work for me now would it...

Vote: Pine
Reason: The way this guy orders his suspects is goddamn suspicious. I mean I know there's probably like one scumbag down at that last near me but there could be one on top.

Are you drunk or just confused?

I haven't even finished catching up (blame midterms), much less put my suspects in any kind of order. This is pure OMGUS masquerading as reasoning.

He was talking about my meter. It looks weird because the quoting got all screwed up.

It is pretty telling though that you're not caught up but you have the time to defend yourself instead of catching up.

Tammy + Cooldog: You two have been keeping up with the discussion in thread. Why are you not voting?

re. Norman: At this point I get the feeling he could be a Jester type role because he's been going out of his way to antagonize people from the start. I don't trust him but I also have a hard time believing that a regular scum role would play this way.

Haze: why would Pine making a blank "I'll post something later" post sway you away from voting him?

Pine: making two "I'll post something later" posts in a row is scummy.

Tammy re. Zdenek: I was mainly reaction testing him in the previous thread, he didn't respond in a way that I would consider incriminating.

VOTE: Pine

Pine's still scum.
Shadow1psc is still passive, still don't like.
Wouldn't mind AV or Haze dying.

But Norman's town.

UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Pine

Pine's overreactions to being voted are pretty scummy. Kudos for the rant in #461 trying to reason with the misguided idiots as if they aren't scum to you when your vote says otherwise.

I like Shadoweh's points against Pine.

@The person who asked me why I didn't vote Pine:
Like I said, I still think Pine is scummy, but i"ll reserve the vote for when he decides to post, and see if I change my mind. If I vote him before he says anything, then that's extremely hypocritical considering my own position, and at the same time give my own arguments/votes no credibility.

@Tammy: Yep. Nope.

Let's kill this Pine fella already!

My vote still on Norman, we're not going to get anywhere with him playing, and I could be persuaded to switch my vote to Pine if needed, but at least he's vaguely playing, going to ISO foxace and see how scummy he looks.

Alright, here are my current reads:
Scum: MoS, CooLDog, kondi, Pine
Confusing as fuck: MoI, Norman, trekker
Lurkers/Noncontributors: MoS, CooLDog, kondi, riggs
Null: Zdenek, Haze, Fox
Town: Shadoweh, Shadow1psc, Tammy, Mhork

People I would support a lynch for (in no particular order):
Norman
trekker
lemons
-possibly, but I need to be persuaded-
pine

CoolDoG, LynchMePls, Shadoweh. one scum team.
Pine, two others. second scum team.

looking for more connections.

Now add to that Norman and Foxace as spammy fucks, who are ready to burn me at the stake and have already convicted me, spewing diatribes against me every other page. To me, that looks like "Holy shit, there's a bunch of smart, decent players being led around by two morons. This needs to be absolutely stopped in its tracks, and I don't have time for another week or so to fight the long hard battle of simply Towning my way out of a false scumread. A week from now, I might already be lynched, and if I claim at L-1, some idiot's not going to believe it and kill me anyway. Drastic measures needed, ASAP.

In other words, I significantly overestimated the strength and numbers of those opposing me, but felt I had no reasonable alternative.

[Pine]

By the way, Norman, Foxace, Magua, MoS, Haze, LMP, greenknight, trekker, Shadoweh, Zdenek, brizingre, ManiacalLemon, and CoolDog had all expressed varying support of my wagon. That's thirteen, or, for those who have difficulty with arithmetic, is indeed "half the thread".

So kindly fuck off.

[Pine]

Alright. So I read the 30 pages of madness.

I'm going to try something here. I'm a Commoner. I'm town and have no power, just VT. I'm going to keep my alignment to myself though.

Hi. I hate you.

Okay, I'm sick to fuck of people saying I claimed "for no reason". Imagine you're me, and you're 20 pages behind. You've posted like twice, and are skimming along trying to keep up. And you see this:

Literally do not care. Your claim timing was bad and, etc, but now that it's happened I'd really like to see something other than you defending yourself that the play was somehow good when it wasn't. You can save that for MD after the game is over.

Things I do care about your opinion on:
- Foxace
- Moneybag's claim
- Whether you think CooLDog is town or not
- Whether you think AurorusVox is scum or not

First of all, you're not me. You weren't in my position, so you don't really get to judge whether it was "good" or not. I felt overwhelmingly pressured, I acted. As for your questions:

-I've given plenty of opinion on Foxace, including my current vote. Why you can't be bothered to look it up is beyond me.
-Moneybags' claim was stupid. There was no point to it. I claimed early, but I had a good reason. He claimed out of the blue. No alignment tell, just confirming him as an idiot in my book.
-Jury's out on CoolDog. I'm not convinced either way
-Actually, AV's absence strikes me as Towny. I don't think I've ever seen "forgot to bookmark this thread" turn out to be scum. Maybe if they do it a few pages in, but not 30+. Scum tend to be hyper-concerned with keeping tabs on the game, and are very unlikely to completely forget or neglect it.

[Pine]

@Pine, before making such a big step as a claim shouldn't you read the whole thread first?
@Pine's 820, One, you had no good reason to claim. Ypur reasdon was that you were to goddamn lazy to read the thread. Is lurking a scum tell for you?

1) Fuck you, 13 out of 26 people ready to lynch me, regardless of actual number of votes, was enough to make me panic.
2) Lurking is never, ever a scum tell on D1. Complete absence from the thread is actually a weak Town tell, as it indicates that there's no scum QT to remind you, no pressure to prove yourself, and the person isn't excited about the challenge.

[Pine]

Cecil the Druid is dead, Norman. He was the pre-game NPC. Please, please stop being a moron.

[Pine]

Please, please tell me there's a Vig out there.

Lately, I'm liking Greenknight as Town and MoI's arguments for Zdenek-scum.

[Pine]

Sup Mastin. I had a Townread on Lemon. This game sucks royal balls. It's just not fun. Norman needs to be blacklisted by every mod ever.

I'm one of the people you're likely to want to ISO, but 809 is the important one.

By virtue of our secret bro honor pact (we should really get one of those) I declare to you that I'm Town.

[Pine]

NY 142 got to well over 100 pages by the end of Day One.

Norman, I swear to God. Why are you playing this game? This is a serious question, and I would like an answer to it. WHY are you playing a game you clearly care nothing about? If your goal is merely to troll people, go back to 4chan or whatever internet crotch-hole whelped you you sorry dickless fuck.

[Pine]

Im the only player that has a chance of being lynched before the deadline so why should I even bother trying to convince everyone to lynch someone else at this point? I think it be better that Im lynched so we can avoid a no lynch.

This is not a scum reaction imo. Let's find someone else to lynch today.

I'm...actually tending to agree. Hrm.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

I'll still settle for a Foxace lynch, but that really does look like Towngaveup, rather than scumgaveup. Enough that it calls all of the previously scummy things into question, as in "Am I sure this is scum or is it just newbie moron stuff?"

[Pine]

With the amount of time left, there's no way we'll rally support for anyone but Foxace today. Maybe if there'd been more enthusiasm for Zdenek, but there isn't. Besides, this doubles as a policy lynch if it's wrong.

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

[Pine]

Girls. I agree with the Zdenek wagon entirely, and if I make it through the night, will be pursuing it. But with a day and change left, we are NOT going to make it happen. Further votes on Zdenek today will be seen as an effort to divide the Town and secure a no-lynch.

Disregard the above if we get a reasonable deadline extension

[Pine]

How about this. Everyone, in your next post, an up-or-down opinion on both Zdenek and Foxace. Just whether you'd be willing to consider lynching them today. If either person fails to accrue enough "willing to consider" nods, we drop them for today and come back to it tomorrow. Note that I'm not asking about preference, just whether lynching the person in question is a nonstarter or not.

Foxace: Willing to consider
Zdenek: Willing to consider

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

Fox 9/Zdenek 7

Let's go, folks. Drop a vote on one of these two. Failing to be on one of these two wagons will be scrutinized tomorrow.

[Pine]

@Mastin: We were only granted a 24 hour extension. As I type, we've only got 31 hours left. It's time to make a decision. As to why Zdenek, read MoI's case. I find it thoroughly convincing.

[Pine]

I need to ask for a clarification before I post result

[Pine]

Waiting for Seacore to respond to my PM

[Pine]

Okay.

Seacore got back to me. I investigated MoI, and was returned with a null result. The question I asked Seacore was whether the kill or investigation resolved first; I was informed (in that roundabout Mod manner) that my investigation failed before he was killed.

So hey. LE team has a Roleblocker.

I am not enamored of MoS, but his wagon analysis is excellent. If I had to guess, I think he's cross-scum hunting.

Vote: Zdenek

Of the two, I'm not enthused by how "low-hanging fruit" the CD wagon feels. Can come back to it

PE: No Town worth their salt wants Doc to claim at this point, and no scum worth their salt will say they do. Stupid survey is stupid. Been thinking about how to balance two Towns vs two scum. Both teams killing every night does not balance against the Towns sharing a day lynch. It may be that they have to alternate even/odd night kills

[Pine]

Fuck you, Zdenek. I owe you nothing, least of all an explanation.

[Pine]

O noes! You actually followed through with the OMGUS you've been spouting all day

[Pine]

I investigated him because if he came back non-Lawful, it would 100% confirm him as non-threat to my side.

I intend to continue investigating with this in mind. My investigations cannot detect scum, but they can detect who isn't a threat to me. Chaotic ethical alignments, regardless of moral alignment, are not a threat to me and my Town.

[Pine]

I chose MoI because whatever dicks of yours he'd sucked, I was having a hard time getting a firm read on him. He always looks obvTown, even when he's scum. If I got a Chaotic alignment out of him, then I'd know he was either an ally or a disinterested third party to me.

[Pine]

O noes! You actually followed through with the OMGUS you've been spouting all day

I'm not sure you know what omgus means. I think zde is actually legitimately voting for you. Saying that it is omgus is not a valid defense...

Saying I'm scum because he disagrees with my investigation choice is not a valid offense...

Look. I'm entirely comfortable with you not believing me. I really don't care. My role is what it is. My role DOES NOT detect Good/Evil. It detects Law/Chaos. In other words, I can detect opposed/unopposed.

[Pine]

Greenknight: You don't investigate your chief suspects. That's just bad Cop work. You investigate people you have no solid read on. Go read Mastin's article on good Cop usage.

CoolDog: Fuck you, scum. You people keep hammering the number of actual votes on me at that time, as if literally 50% of the thread hadn't already stated unsubstantiated suspicion of me, most of them either declaring an intent to vote for me or having actually voted me on and off. My role is VERY useful for the CG Townies, as it makes scum claim their actual ethical alignment.

Note to Chaotic Good Townies: Remember, we don't have to eliminate the Chaotic Evil scum to win. Therefore, we don't give a fuck about people who investigate as Non-Lawful. If I investigate them as Lawful, then they might be scum. If not, they're either ally or disinterested.

[Pine]

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town. CE just shouldn't give a fuck about me, they know I'm not one of them and neither am I one of their targets.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

[Pine]

@GK: I didn't join the conversation because I was simply busy at the time. The reason I didn't pop out with my result right away was because I wanted to check and find out if I was blocked or not.

@CoolDog: Then you suck at being a Cop. The examples of people investigating their top suspects, getting an innocent, and just assuming Godfather are endless. Meanwhile, the people they have no information on continue to have no information. The best move is to investigate unknown entities, period.

I won't be continuing this discussion about the validity of my choice. It's wasting time, you're not going to change my mind, and is better reserved for MD. Hint, I won't engage you on it there either. Go read Mastin's article, he's very thorough.

[Pine]

@Cooldog: Gotcha what? I didn't even look at that game. Just believed what you said about it. As far as the rest, I was discussing theory, not your actions or meta.

Zdenek slipped in his first quote of 1413. Town has no idea about the NK patterns. I'm guessing here about the alternating NKs - note Zdenek's certainty of both teams getting kills each night. Boom, headshot

[Pine]

1425, at the very least, is definitely an ad hominem attack.

So is 1458.

[Pine]

Zar/Lannister is at least the second time I've heard a desire to split Lawful vs Chaotic attributed to me.

I don't want to do that, at least not on a large scale. It would be counter-productive for the many reasons already discussed. However, on the individual scale, if I can determine a person's threat/non-threat status, beyond the doubt that their simple claim gives, I'm going to do it.

@Zdenek: I can't read? I notice you don't actually refute the point, you simply say "NOPE, LOL". Care to show me where I'm wrong? And remember - you're limited to Town's uninformed perspective.

[Pine]

Can't find it? Like I said, it's after the first quote of 1413.

The scum factions both get NK's so I have a hard time swallowing this as a reason to not use your ability to check claims.

That is a hard core scumslip right there. Town DID NOT KNOW that both scumteams got kills every night. Hell, I was assuming they didn't, as that's pretty unbalanced. But hey, this is an experimental setup, so I'll forgive the mod that mistake, even though it's probably going to result in a scum win.

[Pine]

Chaotic Good Bard. I Detect Law every night, and learn whether the person is Lawful or Chaotic. I investigated MoI on N1, but was roleblocked. I checked, my ability was set to resolve before the kill, so the LE team definitely has a roleblocker.

PE: I ignored you, Mhork, because you were simply wrong. I have no desire to split the Towns on large scale, but if I can clear a few individuals for my team, I'm damn well going to do it.

[Pine]

You're wrong because it simply is not and was not my intention. I ignored you because i thought you were just one person, and you've been pretty fail so far. I only responded when it got repeated because it needed to be nipped in the bud before the false allegation got out of hand. And for the last time, I have no intention or desire to divide the entire Town. My power is specifically designed to

detect law

. How the fuck else am I supposed to use it?

[Pine]

Because I'm not a fucking threat to CE.

Are you not paying attention? Or just being willfully moronic?

[Pine]

Why in sweet taint would CE waste a roleblocking action on me, as opposed to Norman (curiously quiet today) who softclaimed Paladin?

[Pine]

FUCK YOU

IT WASN'T JUST ONE FUCKING VOTE, IT WAS THIRTEEN PEOPLE, BEFORE I'D EVEN PROPERLY JOINED THE GAME

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU

[Pine]

@Mhork: You're wrong because you simply are. You made an assertion about my

motives

, and I'm simply telling you "nice try, but no, that's not why I did what I did." There's no evidenciary basis for your assertion, nor is there one for my refutation of it. Shut the fuck up.

@CoolDog: I didn't have solid reads on most people. Hell, I still don't have solid reads on most people. Anyone who claims to have good reads on most of the players in a 26-player game by the end of D1 is either a moron, scum, or incredibly overconfident.

Pine has said that he is not going to investigate people to determine if they are telling the truth when they claim.

Actually, I don't believe I ever said that. I don't see the value in doing what you're suggesting. The vast majority of people, scum included, are going to be telling the truth about their ethical (Law vs Chaos) alignment. They have little reason to lie about it, and the risk of being caught in said lie makes it just plain not worth it. What you're arguing for me to do here is waste my entire power, for the rest of the game, confirming that people are telling the truth when they have no incentive to lie. That's ridiculous.

Nice retaliatory OMGUS vote, by the way. Very pro-Town. [/sarcasm]

[Pine]

greenknight makes a good point against Pine...but gk's strategy only works if everyone ethic claims. Without that, Pine has nothing to go off of.
Remind me, was gk up for a mass ethic claim?

Did CooLDoG and Pine claim the same role but of opposite ethics?

We should not mass ethics claim.

Lying is still way too risky for scum, so they won't bother. I wouldn't.

And for fucks sake, CoolDog didn't even softclaim anything. That misunderstanding needs to die, and you fucks need to actually read the thread.

[Pine]

Hrm. I'd forgotten that Brizingre is scum. Amusing that his lynch list is me and three of my strongest Townreads.

[Pine]

Empking is strongly playing to his Town meta. He's just someone you have to get used to.

[Pine]

@AV, what the fuck? I haven't claimed a power role!!! show me where I have claimed a power role. Hell, show me where

I have

claimed.

@Mos,

scum have no reason to lie what soever. Why should they lie

? Give me a reason why falsifying your Chaos/law attribute would help the scum. Keep in mind that even if one tam is close to winning the game there still isn't a reason for scum to fake claim because the game will continue after one team has won the game. Ohh, yeah, and even if we could force someone to fake claim it won't help, because

pine has refused to use his power role to check fake claims, which is the only thing that his power role is fucking good for

. Also, Scum will not fake claim their C/L attribute because pine has all ready claimed (with

one

vote on him).

@all, I ask you this: Would town claim a power role with one vote on them? Would town refuse to use their power role optimally even after it has been explained countless times how it is best used? Would town lurk all of day one, only coming out when his name was called?

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions, then you need to vote for pine. Because guess what, he has done every single one of them.

Also, ninja, Empking is another fucking lurker. He has yet to actually post in this game.

This amused me. Read the bolded.

CoolDog, please read post 809

[Pine]

And all of CoolDog's questions there are just as incisive if you replace "Would Town do this" with "Would scum do this"

Apologies for multipost. I keep seeing new things that are egregiously wrong with CD's attack.

You know what? Fuck him.

Unvote
Vote: CoolDog

[Pine]

Pine what form do you get your results in?

I'm not sure yet. I haven't actually gotten one yet. Seacore simply informed me that my investigation had failed, hence why I was curious whether it was due to roleblock or due to his death.

CoolDog, I've played at least eight or nine games with Empking. I don't need to cite (<--that's how you spell it) a specific game. Hell, I'd argue that anyone citing a specific game when making a meta assessment does not understand the concept, unless they're simply citing an exceptional example of a particular facet of that meta.

@Faraday: I disagree with you about CoolDog.

I do not intend to move my vote any time soon. Sorry.

Changed my mind. Convince me.

@PV: Meh. Do what you want. I've made peace with being mislynched early.

[Pine]

I'm a rolecop. More or less.

Faraday, AV is Town. Trust me and I'll trust you. Here, I'll even take the first step.

Unvote
Vote: Brizingre

Faraday, ISO this scumbag and tell me if you see the opportunism that I see.

PE: What cognitive dissonance? If you were Chaotic, you wouldn't care either way if I were CG or CE. Ergo, Lawful. So you're either Lawful Evil and view me as CG Town and a threat, or you're LG and see me as CE and scum. You're really reaching now.

[Pine]

Point out the cognitive dissonance between thinking you're both probably Lawful and thinking that you might or might not be scum.

[Pine]

Point out the cognitive dissonance between thinking you're both probably Lawful and thinking that you might or might not be scum.

That's not what I said.

The cognitive dissonance is between you thinking that I am lawful and thinking that scum wouldn't risk lying about alignment.

What the fuck? Those aren't even related, much less opposed or dissonant

[Pine]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

[Pine]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

He claimed CG commoner a couple days before deadline.

Oh. So he did. Okay, I was assuming he wasn't a complete moron. I was basing my assertion of Lawful alignment entirely on his aggressiveness towards me. To a Chaotic alignment, I'm simply not a threat, Good or Evil.

I'd say it was interesting that Zdenek was fanatically hunting someone whose life or death is (individually) irrelevant to his wincon, but he's got a serious case of confirmation bias going on over there.

[Pine]

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk. Occam's Razor demands that if I be scum, I would be CE.

I think the best evidence yet (and that's saying a lot) against Zdenek is the specificity of his accusations.

[Pine]

Because he's obvTown, unless you're on shrooms.

[Pine]

@MoS: Brizingrescum

[Pine]

Empking's Town meta is to be quiet and occasionally stir the shit. He likes to intentionally place votes without declared reason, just to provoke reaction. People that overreact tend to be a bit scummier, vis a vis the "caught for the wrong reason" response.

[Pine]

Why the fuck would I lie about forgetting Zdenek's alignment claim? There's no advantage and nothing to gain from any perspective.

[Pine]

...

Hold up

Zdenek is making sense

He had the opportunity to check if someone was lying

and didn't

Has he tried to explain why he didn't do that?
Give me links, people.

Are you fucking serious? There's like thirty pages of discussion on this.

[Pine]

There's no real reason to lie about ethical alignment. The risk of getting crosskilled by telling the truth is just as dangerous as getting caught in a lie by Town. I wouldn't lie if I were scum. The best use for my ability is to narrow the field of suspects for my team. If someone investigates as non-Lawful, CG Townies like myself have no further incentive to investigate them.

In other words, the only possible way I can get an actual guilty is if I catch someone in a bald-faced lie, one which I don't think smart scum would commit. I can, however, get innocents, at least from a CG perspective.

[Pine]

Blah blah blah, cue three more pages of Zdenek and CoolDog railing about how that's non-optimal Town play, and therefore MUST be scum, interspersed with others saying it's non-optimal so it MUST be Town, and still others saying it's non-optimal and null. Don't care, going to play my role according to MY best judgment, fuck all the rest of you.

It's irrelevant anyway, I'm going to keep getting roleblocked.

[Pine]

If there's a Watcher, though, they should be on me. Might catch a LE roleblocker that way.

[Pine]

Remind me, were you in favour of a mass ethics claim?

No.

Now we even have people who hard core defend pine going at him.

Including me.

Unvote, Vote: Pine

.

Et tu, Mastin?

[Pine]

No, I realized back when he made the claim. I just

forgot

, and then Zdenek kept calling me a liar and scum and such for the last week, and only saw fit to say

what

I'd lied about (suggesting he might be Lawful while saying scum had no reason to lie) a day or so ago.

[Pine]

^This (PE: refers to 1774) does not make sense. Its very first premise is completely untrue. WHY WOULD THEY LIE. Being Chaotic or Lawful does not make you scum. Getting caught in a lie DOES. It's a completely and totally unnecessary risk.

[Pine]

MoS; you say Pine is town because he thought through his action.

I say that is false, sir.

If he thought it through, he would have been for ethical massclaim and also used it against the claimed ethic Zdenek.

Look: if scum tell the truth about their ethical alignment, when an opposing ethical side wins, all of THEIR ethic will leave the game.
If scum have told the truth, then at that moment, they will be outed as scum.
Therefore, their only hope is to lie about their ethic.

In an example:

Say, CE scum claim C

CG win
All CG leave the game, and all LE leave the game.
Scum, claiming the truthful C, do not leave the game.
Scum are outed as scum and lose.

If LE win
CG all leave the game
Scum, claiming the truthful C, do not leave the game.
Scum are outed as scum and lose.

Scum's ONLY option is to lie.

Now, if Pine had a role that could detect ethical lies, he should have been FOR an ethics massclaim to force scum to choose between (a) telling the truth and being outed if they are not the first team to win; or (b) tell a lie and be caught by his role

He did not do this.
Therefore I feel that he does not have that role.
Therefore I feel that he is a liar.
And is scum.

Wow, that's...really valid. Not the accusation, that's bullshit, but the massclaim speculation. With scum being forced to lie, then I could actually function as a full Cop.

The problem is that that's the FIRST TIME anyone's come up with that. Despite having pages and pages of discussion. If it were as obvious as you're pretending, someone would have come up with it a long tine ago. So give yourself some credit, cut me some slack, and let's discuss it's merits (and drawbacks).

[Pine]

I'm still utterly confused as to what you think I lied about

[Pine]

... Can we just end this and lynch pine all ready? Seriously, give me one good reason not to lynch you pine. You are basically telling the town that you are not going to use your role in the only way it benefits town. If that doesn't merit a lynch nothing on earth does.

You're aware that literally two posts above this, I came around on the thing you've been bitching about, right? Read the fucking thread.

[Pine]

@AV: No, I wasn't part of the pre-crash discussion

[Pine]

Classy as ever, Chesskid

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: BB

Not going to get my brizingre lynch, looks like. AV and I are both Town, so not supporting that. MoS has good points on BB.

[Pine]

Yeah, that's because Brizingre is pulling his reads out of his ass, MoS.

As far as mass ethical claim goes, I think we just can't afford it, at least not yet. It's just not worth it at this point. Having a couple of people outed is more or less irrelevant, but a full massclaim runs the risk of the "dividing the towns" bogeyman that I've been accused of.

Mass ethical claim should be saved for later in the game, like any massclaim. At that point, it'll be just as dangerous for them to lie as it is now.

PE: What question? I've been mostly ignoring you because of how all over the map and derpy you've been.

[Pine]

Spoiler: MoS's case

I'd like to take a moment to ask where the FUCK are these players?

04. PeregrineV
07. ooba
15. BBmolla
16. Shadoweh
18. Norman
19. Jackal711
20. Lord Mhork
25. Zar

Especially Jackal711, BBmolla, ooba, and Norman, who all have not posted more recently than Foxace -_-

Vote: BBmolla

I know he's been reading and posting in the Theme Park forum, so where the fuck is he in this game?

And no, don't think I'm letting this Tammy-Zdenek thing go.

BBmolla still lurking. Let's pressure him with a wagon.

MoS, why aren't you voting Zdenek?

Because BBmolla is still lurking.

I don't like this post from MoS: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3960496, I don't like the way he suddenly backtracks from Tammy and trys to encourage the BB lynch, who's only crime so far has been lurking, and his defence of Pine seems slightly dodgy.

I refer you to the following:

And no, don't think I'm letting this Tammy-Zdenek thing go.

As soon as BBmolla starts contributing regularly, I'm more than willing to go back to Zdenek-Tammy. However, I'm not shedding any tears over my BBmolla vote right now since I can pretty easily connect him as a partner to the Zdenek-Tammy scumteam.

Do you think all of the other people who agree with me that Pine is obviously town are scum as well?

@Mos, scum have no reason to lie what soever. Why should they lie? Give me a reason why falsifying your Chaos/law attribute would help the scum. Keep in mind that even if one tam is close to winning the game there still isn't a reason for scum to fake claim because the game will continue after one team has won the game. Ohh, yeah, and even if we could force someone to fake claim it won't help, because pine has refused to use his power role to check fake claims, which is the only thing that his power role is fucking good for. Also, Scum will not fake claim their C/L attribute because pine has all ready claimed (with

one

vote on him).

See this post

@all, I ask you this: Would town claim a power role with one vote on them? Would town refuse to use their power role optimally even after it has been explained countless times how it is best used? Would town lurk all of day one, only coming out when his name was called?

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions, then you need to vote for pine. Because guess what, he has done every single one of them.

Yes, yes, and yes. None of those are optimal town play, but a town player would do these things.

Why are people reading me when I haven't posted anything substancial except for the obvious?

This is another good reason why BBmolla is probably scum.

@PeregrineV: I disagree strongly. It's just as useful to the town because it either gives us a chance to catch scum in a lie outright, or it forces them to claim their real alignment so that those of us who are hunting their kind (slightly more than the other scum anyway) can narrow our focus in on them.

mmm, that OMGUS from BBmolla looks so delicious that it's positively tantalizing...I'm becoming more and more happy with my vote every day. That was not a town reaction.

Just out of interest, when you did this, did you take into account that there are two scum teams?

MoS' case and vote on BBMolla is awful

UNVOTE

VOTE:Mastermind of Sin

Otherwise, Shadoweh is probably town and after a quick ISO, AVoX actually looks like argumentative town.

Although BBMolla doesn't look that town, he doesn't look particularly scummy either.

Have you looked a BB's posts lately? He's hella trying to fly under the radar. Even after I poked him into existence all he did was OMGUS vote me and then disappear again when I proved his accusations false.

Hi. Re-read the first 5 pages.

Av looks sorta town from it. Skenvoy looks super town. BBmolla wagon is probably dumb.

Wrong. BBmolla lurked, got called out on it, OMGUS'd his accuser, then went back to lurking. He's just trying to sit back until the heat goes away. Obvscum play.

This last post by MoS sums it up pretty well.

This took about 60 seconds. This is why I don't really respect your conduct in this game.

[Pine]

1949 is a good example of the case against CoolDog, actually. He's completely not paying attention or thinking critically, just sniping at whatever moves. He completely missed the context that makes TD's post make sense.

[Pine]

... I think BB is a better candidate based off of that standard. Or the trekker slot.

Hence why I'm voting BB. Snipe away.

[Pine]

1949 is a good example of the case against CoolDog, actually. He's completely not paying attention or thinking critically, just sniping at whatever moves. He completely missed the context that makes TD's post make sense.

[Pine]

For the record, that'd make scumteams consisting of MoS, Pine, Cooldog, Butterfly, Jackal, and Tammy. But I did have a scumread on LMP as well. I need to think things through, and also do the team divisions.

This list is very "path of least resistance". With the exception of Lost Butterfaraday, nothing in there is insightful or unpopular. This is not the Mastin I'm accustomed to. Deserves additional scrutiny when he's posting more, but we don't have time today.

[Pine]

Probably isn't a vig, Butterfaraday. Only one kill N1 with two scumteams, though it's still unclear whether the scumteams can both kill each night.

[Pine]

I wonder how many other people look at this thread, see a page filled with Norman and look away. <_<

Why would a Bard have the ability to detect alignment? The only classes that have alignment detection are Clerics and Paladins. I really want to hate the claim. Thinking about how the setup works though, It's not really possible to fakeclaim Lawful or Chaotic alignment detecting without making yourself caught scum. Because we haven't mass-claimed alignments, scum would have a 50-50 shot of getting it wrong every time. There was no reason to out yourself like that if you're telling the truth Pine, there are two huge wagons and neither of them are on you. :/

Does it fit with DnD flavour to have Pine be some sort of scum detector? I only ask because you weirdly ignore this posibility when the role actually does kind of make more sense as a scum role (it's sort of useless for town, tbh)

No, actually. Only Clerics (of the core classes) have an actual Detect Law/Chaos spell. For that matter, only Clerics and Paladins have Detect Evil. It fits with flavor though, as Bards are prohibited from being Lawful, and there is no (core) Chaotic counterpart to the Paladin's built-in detection ability.

Mastin, "path of least resistance" in this case is you going after, and staying on, the most popular wagons. You're being

lazy

, and the Mastin I know is pretty much the opposite of lazy. If anything, you're obsessive.

If Mastin flips scum, we need to look at his recent lists again. He busses like a bitch, so most or all of his buddies are probably listed.

[Pine]

EBWOP: Sorry, that was poorly worded.

Mechanically

, Bard doesn't make sense as alignment-detectors, as they have no access to alignment-detection in core. From a

flavor

perspective, it does.

[Pine]

Ehh. Trying to catch up, but this game is fucked so sideways and diagonally that I'm not motivated to. I'm back on page 84 and the tedium of reading the rest is killing me. This thread has like, critical mass of derpfucks. At least the derpiness of NY142 was contained to a couple of individuals I could systematically ignore, it's far too widespread to employ similar tactics here.

[Pine]

Investigated chesskid, roleblocked. On my way to practice, post later

[Pine]

This game is moving way the fuck too fast. Having a very hard time keeping up with it given end -of-semester projects and a play that's going to have its opening night on Saturday.

Just finished catching up to the end of D1.

[Pine]

I just skipped ahead to this page, and read Zdenek's case on you in 2517. It has merit, you can't just brush it off with disdain. Explain yourself.

[Pine]

No, I'm refuting your cognitive dissonance. Further, I have made peace with the fact that the rabid pushers of my lynch will never be killed by scum, and I'm going to get lynched eventually. Meanwhile, I have no reason to believe I'll ever be allowed to actually use my power. Finally, your dissonance looks very suspicious, and I'll take my scumslips where I can get them, regardless to the consequences to myself.

Again, answer the charges instead of blowing them off, they have merit.

Vote: Shadow

[Pine]

Rolefishing? No he's not. Your opinion on me did a 180, and you need to answer for that, though your completely unprovoked softclaim is noted.

[Pine]

Mastin, you can't chide me for choosing Shadow pressure over a BB lynch, then call BB CE. CE roleblocker has little incentive to devote themselves to blocking me.

[Pine]

That makes a certain degree of sense, I suppose, and is worth revisiting. I'd still like Shadow to answer Zdenek's case with a straight answer, so I'll be wagoning him now, to a lynch if necessary.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: BBMolla

Looks like everyone else is pussying out on Shadow, scared off by a lame softclaim. Mastin's case on BB makes more sense every time I read it, and I'd like to be useful with my power some time before I'm dead. Or at least force scum to use a shot on me.

[Pine]

Work of tomorrow, will get to this game then. I skimmed Tiphs case on Briz, it's good but I'll add a few more things to it then. People really need to move over to him though.

Also Pine needs to post a fuckload more in here, especially an explanation for his investigation choice.

As I stated on D1, I investigate people I have poor or unclear reads on. To be quite frank, I more or less picked at random from my large group of null reads. I was (correctly) anticipating a roleblock, so I didn't put a ton of effort into the decision.

However, I am anticipating the possibility of being freed up after a BB lynch. Can we get together a comprehensive list of who's claimed what?

[Pine]

That is NOT what the actual case is. Read the thread.

[Pine]

BB was evasive about his roleblock claim.

Also whoever is actually roleblocking Pine is stupid as hell, there's no point in blocking him.

If he were actually a Town roleblocker, the other person wouldn't be "stupid as hell," they'd be scum.

He's been lurky and opportunistic, which plays to his scum meta, so far as I know it.

There. That's three succinct sentences.

[Pine]

Seriously? That's been the basis of the case for some time now. Your willful ignorance is discouraging.

[Pine]

...Add in Cooldog (scumread) to the list of people pushing the Nacho wagon as yet another reason to never again consider Nacho scum.

Don't forget that we're in multiscum.

[Pine]

^This has got to be one of the scummiest posts all game. Completely erases all of the "ehhh, he's probably just being a derp" credit he's accrued.

[Pine]

CD, I know precisely what my role DOES. No idea where you got that impression. We merely differ on how to BEST use it. Now fuck off.

@Reg: I must have missed your request. I'll get to it tonight or in the morning

[Pine]

Briz hate never disappeared, he's just not really optimal to pursue. Too many better choices.

As for the other half of that case, I'm simply torn about how to use it. Using it as lie detector only makes sense to me I we alignment massclaim (which is a bad idea) or if there is someone specific that I think is lying and want to prove it. That second part is why I asked what claims we had on the table. Still thinking my way is better

[Pine]

Pretty much the entirety of the above post is false.

Pine, the reason I don't think you understand your role is because you have never ever used it in a way that benefits the town.

Opinion.

You quote Articles that mastin has written, but those are for normal cops. You defend our choices like you are a normal cop. You claimed that you are NOT a cop, you are a L/C cop. L/C individually has nothing to do with being Good or evil (town or scum).

The principles are fully transferrable to any kind of investigator, from true cop to watcher/tracker to lie detector.

Basically, you are acting like you have a role that you DO NOT have.

Opinion

You have also NEVER helped the town with your role. AND YOUR CHOICES do NOT make sense from a town perspective.

Opinion

Logical conclusion:

You are either scum, or you don't know what your role is.

Does not compute. I haven't used my role as you would have, ergo I am scum or stupid? Bad, opinion-based faux-logic.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

SINCE FUCKING WHEN? You've been tunneling on me to the exclusion of practically everything else since day one, when have I EVER received the benefit of your doubt? False statement.

Also, You literally have no scum reads that you have presented.

Completely false, I have several reads that I've pushed, notable of late are Shadow and BB.

And you have not made a case on someone ever.

This is a fair point, kind of. The hate I've received and the vomitous bullshit of this thread has induced some serious apathy.

You are not helping the town in any way shape form or fission.

Opinion

Lynch. His. Ass. Now.

This is different from your rants since day one...how?

[Pine]

Damn,

@Mod

fix the quotes please.

[Pine]

Pien, it is not opinion when it is true that

your investigation targets do not help town.

The bolded cannot be objectively debated. It is inherently subjective, as it imposes a value judgment.

I've done what I - and no one else - feels is right. I'm the only person that I am 100% certain is Town, so I'm going to go with my opinion on this. Fuck you for thinking you or anyone else will bully me into changing it. If I do, it will be by my decision, not yours.

[Pine]

Actually, I'll admit that there's a certain amount of opposition and defiance to my chesskid choice. I was thinking about caving to pressure and investigating Zdenek, but fuck 'em. My opinion is my opinion, and I'm the only one I

know

has the Town's best interests in mind. I won't be intimidated. Chesskid was a mostly random choice from my large null pool.

[Pine]

Incorrect. The best use of an investigative ability is to clarify or gain information about unclear reads. Hence why I have chosen people I was uncertain about.

[Pine]

Junpei, you're confusing the WHO with the HOW. The influence of others and my own opinion have entirely to do with HOW I use the ability: whether to verify claims or to reveal the unclaimed alignments of unknown quantities. I choose the latter. When you choose the latter, the WHO matters less, as long as it's someone who is null or unclear.

[Pine]

I'm concerned with being influenced by scum into wasting my investigation. For hypothetical example, CE Zdenek browbeating me into investigating him, getting a "not lying" result and him using that as evidence that he's Town. Worried about wasted or scum-directed investigations.

The vast majority of people, scum and Town, will be telling the truth about their ethical alignment, particularly after knowing they might get caught in a lie. Compared to the revelation of completely new information, I'll take that, thanks.

[Pine]

Compared to the revelation of completely new information

Explain the benefits of this information, please.

I don't have time to teach you how to play Mafia.

Suffice to say, information about hard-to-read people = good

[Pine]

Cool story bro

[Pine]

Actually, Zdenek is dead on for this one. Were I scum, I'd have done the exact same thing the last day or so.

I probably would have backed down and gone "oh hey, you're right" at the first mention that my plan might not be a good idea, though.

[Pine]

Are you actually following the game here Tammy?

Scum HAVE to lie about their ethics.

Therefore, if he is telling the truth, he is town (unless he cocked up and told the truth, but in that case it'd be obvious eventually so no harm done).
Not that it matters since Pine is scum so.

I disagree with the bolded. It is risky to lie, it is risky to tell the truth. Lying runs the risk of being caught, whereas if you tell the truth, you're essentially gambling that the other team isn't going to win first.

Right, and then be outed for an easy town win once the "other game" has been completed if you get what I am saying. In order for your scum faction to win you must lie, unless you think you can win first. Strategically it makes sense to lie sense it keeps you in the game after one side has one.

Plus, if scum didn't have to lie then Pine's role would have

absolutely zero

usefulness to the town.

mod, is this game considered bastard? Meaning will you give roles to people that they actually can't extract usefulness from? For example, enablers that have no "seed role", or third party cops with no third party."

If the answer to that question is no, then by using tammy's logic pine's role must be scum. If the answer is no then the only way pine's role can be used by town is to check claims, which pine refuses to do because he is scum. End of story, lynch pine if the answer is no to the above question.

If the answer is yes to that question, then I'll be happy to rethink my read on pine.

Holy sweet Christ the badlogic and WIFOM in this post.

[Pine]

Obviously, not everyone agrees with you. Including our only flipped scum. Yet again, I'm going to have to insist that you not pretend that your personal opinion is divinely-affirmed truth.

[Pine]

Ehhh. Overslept. Maybe I'll work on it in class tonight.

[Pine]

Eh. I have a null-Town lean on him. Mostly just because I find myself nodding along with him.

[Pine]

Awww, Overscum

[Pine]

@Oversoul, you have Pine as a town read, but you don't want people to claim ethics. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

These two things are mutually exclusive. I don't want ethics claim either. There are advantages to it, but there are also possible drawbacks. We don't know what powers the scumteam has that function based on alignment.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: CoolDog

One of PeregrineV and CoolDog are scum, cool. Cool cool cool.

[Pine]

Feysal, why so worried? CoolDog didn't claim Miller, so the investigation can't be false. If he flips Town, then PV just scumclaimed and we lynch him tomorrow, no questions asked.

[Pine]

I actually have no problem with Pere's late claim. It's better to let the day play out and get reads from it than quicklynch the day from the start.
Pretty sure Feysal is taking the Chesskid towntell that LB talked about to the extreme.

Reg and MoS have given me good answers in the last few pages. Both are town, but both point to opposite reads on BBMolla. Interesting, but I still think he's scum until I see conclusive proof for Reg's argument (p.s. I'm remaining cryptic on that front on purpose)

PINE USE YOUR ROLE PROPERLY TONIGHT IF YOU ARE TOWN

You want me to verify a claim? Assemble a list of the claims made so far and I'll see if there's one on there worth using it on.

[Pine]

PeregrineV is Lawful. I chose him because a non-Lawful would have been more or less a full-stop innocent result

Found a third way to use my ability, jackasses

[Pine]

I believe we were informed that it's 10:3/10:3 at some point pregame. Besides, if it were 11:2/11:2, we'd have seen a mass exodus of the remaining LGs, and 9:4/9:4 would be ridiculous. That makes the current numbers 9:2/6:1.

Vote: BB

[Pine]

Wait a tick...BB, who are you claiming to have blocke last night?

[Pine]

Eh. There are significant pros and cons to ethics massclaim at this point. If LG gets lucky/good and eliminates the last CE, it'll be too late. Claim too early and we help scum get rid of their targets.

[Pine]

Good point, Junpei. Was excited to actually have something useful from my role and jumped the gun.

Obv, Oversoul

[Pine]

Feysal, can you confirm or deny that you were blocked?

Holy rolefishing, Batman.

Vote: Feysal

Hunch. I can't see any reason scum would lock me down, then just decide not to the third night. My hunch is that a roleblocker got blocked.

[Pine]

So he's rolefishing the guy that you're voting for?

And you want us to believe you are town why

There are two scum factions, dipshit. Multiple scum factions means rolefishing directed at someone doesn't make the target Town.

Two possibilities?

Feysal is scum, was blocked.

BB is scum, no-actioned and is trying to push a town lynch wagon along.

In this situation, if BB were town, wouldn't BB have been the optimal scum block target? Wouldn't that have been the case Night 2 as well?

That's my hunch. I'm thinking BB blocked Feysal, and Feysal is the scum roleblocker who's been locking me down.

why the f would scum block a rber?

How the fuck would BB know that Feysal WAS a roleblocker?

BBmolla blocks pine tonight
missing kill = lynch pine

problem sovled

This plan is fine by me. It either proves me not to be CE, or it forces them to give up their kill.

I could care less about your respect, it has nothing to do with this game, and as it stands I've been more correct so far than yourself, or even the majority of the 'good' players who thought CD was town. That post had nothing to do with this game and was uncalled for.

Back on topic, Pine did not lie about his night 2 action.

How the hell would you know that? I was roleblocked, so a Tracker/Watcher would not have seen me go anywhere.

BIG FoS on Shadow for this post. Indicates Shadow knows for certain that I was roleblocked.

[Pine]

Bullshit. That's not how those roles worked. Target is blocked, target goes nowhere.

[Pine]

Work* (present tense)

Gah. It's hard being an English major. I should go back to studying rocks.

PE: They didn't. He claimed to have blocked Feysal, and there was no block on me last night. Hence why I think Feysal is the scum roleblocker, hence my vote on Feysal.

Try to follow along.

PE2: BULLSHIT THAT'S NOT HOW THAT ROLE WORKS

[Pine]

@Mod: If a Tracker targets a power role, and that power role is blocked, does the Tracker see where their target WOULD have gone?

[Pine]

It's worded exactly the same.

[Pine]

^lolOMGUS against AV

That's a scumpost if I've ever seen one. His "I'm not scum" argument more or less rests on WIFOM (him being unlikely to be associated with BB and Shadoweh) and THAT rests on BB being LE scum (which, given the growing likelihood that Feysal's the one that's been blocking me, is increasingly unlikely)

[Pine]

...

That's not how that role works, but it's your game.

FoS on Shadow retracted, with apologies.

[Pine]

Chesskid, I used Detect Law on you. Go back to your hole.

[Pine]

BB, you should roleblock me tonight.

[Pine]

Because Chesskid's plan makes sense

CE have to decide whether to no-kill (which is good for Town) or kill someone and confirm that I'm not the last CE (which is good for Town). As Bards can't be Lawful Evil, and no one has CC'd me as a Bard, that would more or less end the discussion.

[Pine]

BB, if you refuse to RB pine then he needs to die, and all the lawful good town will leave, is that what you want?

BB, you should roleblock me tonight.

Did you both ignore the fact that I more or less proved Pine is innocent? If anyone's lying, this is a showdown between BB and Feysal.

No, you just proved that I targeted who I said I did, and that I was roleblocked.

Oh I get it.

Bleh. I feel like we're both wasting our abilities by doing so though.

It's for a good cause.

[Pine]

Quit trying to direct actions. You realize the plan is not only not fool proof, but actually very prone to disruption? Target who you will, Pine, you should be agreeing with me, not trying to argue for why people should be lynching you.

I'm not, I'm just correcting your overstating of the truth.

[Pine]

Translation: JOAT that doesn't want to give away other abilities, or another Inventor target.

Interesting. You of all people, Peregrine, should have come to one of those conclusion, particularly the latter.

[Pine]

Mina hasn't really played yet. Lost Butterfly has been almost entirely Faraday thus far, and his scumgame is outstanding.

[Pine]

Can you ask better questions? I'm quite clearly not talking about it failing on Tammy - that doesn't make sense from context. I thought MOI were chaotic, I guess.

I guess I got my people on who he was confused about although I just realized you were going down the same avenue, PV. >_> Sorry if I stole your thunder but I found LB's whole interaction and trying to play it off as something minor much more scummy.

Here is your post too PV which found the things I was originally suspicious... before I found them haha.

WAIT.

SHE PROTECTED TAMMY

OVER MAGUA?

I mean that's just silly. (

Sure it'd have failed but

)

Why would Shadow's fake- "Lawful Protect" "fail" when trying to protect Tammy?

Pine, I repeat myself, is Mina transparent as scum? Doesn't she *hate* being scum? I have a feeling yes answers to these questions are why she never bothered to get caught up in the first place.

I have limited experience with Mina, particularly as scum. However, if Mina's scumplay is that bad, with Faraday's scumplay being that good, it certainly is a red flag that she took a backseat to him in such a big way.

That said, I just remembered that you replaced Brizingre, who I had a massive scumread on, so I'll be taking anything you have to say with a

grain

spoonful of salt.

PE: That's an implausible scenario, particularly given that BB

didn't

block me last night. Plus, if Feysal had a PR and wasn't blocked, he'd have countered BB's claim that he blocked Feysal already. In other words, the evidence that BB is exactly what he says he is grows by the minute.

[Pine]

Lynch Feysal when I flip town.

If this happens, you can count on it. Thing is, a straight up counterclaim like that, you don't just ignore it. Throw half of the logic from today out the window, I suppose.

Unvote
Vote: BBMolla

Spell flavor now asshat.

Nnnnah. Don't think so. Feysal's claim strongly hints that there's more to it, and I don't think it necessary for that to be revealed.

[Pine]

BB at L-2 (Feysal, Nacho, chesskid, TiphaineDeath, Empking, Oversoul, Pine, Shadow1psc)

Anyone have anything to say? I love 1v1 situations when the scumteams are running low.

[Pine]

Quite the opposite, in fact, he specifically stated that he wasn't one

[Pine]

and my plan was wonderful

It wasn't "wonderful," as it relied on two people losing their actions, but it did make sense. So don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

[Pine]

But Pine, why no reaction to Feysal calling you 95% scum?

I'm tuning most accusations being flung my way out at this point. It's old news.

He said he got a different answer from Seacore than you did about being roleblocked. Why do you think that might be?)

Did he? Interesting, I don't see that anywhere. I'd be fascinated to know how he (or you) would even know, as I haven't actually said anything about the manner in which Seacore informed me, except that the phrasing was the same for both nights I was blocked.

[Pine]

Seacore got back to me. I investigated MoI, and was returned with a null result. The question I asked Seacore was whether the kill or investigation resolved first; I was informed (in that

roundabout Mod manner

) that my investigation failed before he was killed.

The observant reader may have noted that I have not claimed any of my targets. I was successful only on the second night, and I'm keeping that secret for the same reason as the ability itself. Last night I was blocked from visiting TiphaineDeath, and the first night I was blocked from visiting MoI. The same player Pine claimed to have failed to investigate. The sheer unlikelihood of this is baffling, and I have considered theories like MoI having been jailkept, making all actions he was targeted with fail - except someone obviously killed him. Be that as it may, this put me in the position where I could ask Seacore whether my action had failed because MoI had died, just as Pine had done. Naturally I expected the same response, and it was, almost. I asked a straight question, and received a straight answer. Nothing roundabout or ambiguous about it whatsoever.

Or did you mean this? I asked for clarification on whether my investigation had failed because of the kill or roleblock, and Seacore simply told me that my action resolved before the kill did, which indicated, in a somewhat roundabout manner, that the latter was true.

[Pine]

Feysal counterclaimed him. But because you're too lazy:

Ladies and gentlemen, good townsfolk, evil townsfolk.

The time has come for me to explain everything. I wanted to get everyone to commit to stances on BBmolla and Pine before my grand reveal, but given where this conversation was headed, I can wait no longer. It is unfortunate that Shadow was outed, since it was completely unnecessary. The only role revealed today should have been mine.

I am a lawful good wizard.

This claim alone should explain why I have been calling for BBmolla's blood from the moment I saw his claim. I do not believe there would be another wizard with the same alignment. But, you don't know the half of it yet. I have two further reasons which tell me BBmolla has to be lying. The first is my ability. I would prefer to keep to myself what exactly my ability is and what it does, but it is definitely not role blocking. The second is the fact that I have been role blocked...

twice

. Yes, one of those times was last night. The other was during the very first night,

the same night Pine claimed to also have been blocked, and BBmolla claimed not to have submitted an action

. Hands up, is there anyone who would believe that there are three role blockers on the loose? Right, I did not think so.

BBmolla is 100% confirmed lawful evil.

My revelations do not end here though. I have also strong reasons to believe Pine is the very last chaotic evil player. I have mentioned one of them before. At first glance his claim looks plausible enough, but when you consider what that role becomes when the lawful good and chaotic evil factions leave the game, you notice how broken it is. He claimed bard. Bards can only be chaotic. In the event that all the chaotic evil scum are confirmed to be gone, this would make a bard confirmed town. What is more, in the event that all remaining scum are lawful and all remaining town are chaotic, his power would be equivalent to that of a sane alignment cop. So, confirmed town alignment cop with unlimited actions, anyone? This role is way too good to be true, and when I thought of this yesterday I realized I'd been had. The fact that he was so strongly defended by MoS is icing on the cake.

There is also a minor inconsistency in Pine's claim, which I ignored at the time in favor of my otherwise strong town read on him.

Seacore got back to me. I investigated MoI, and was returned with a null result. The question I asked Seacore was whether the kill or investigation resolved first; I was informed (in that

roundabout Mod manner

) that my investigation failed before he was killed.

The observant reader may have noted that I have not claimed any of my targets. I was successful only on the second night, and I'm keeping that secret for the same reason as the ability itself. Last night I was blocked from visiting TiphaineDeath, and the first night I was blocked from visiting MoI. The same player Pine claimed to have failed to investigate. The sheer unlikelihood of this is baffling, and I have considered theories like MoI having been jailkept, making all actions he was targeted with fail - except someone obviously killed him. Be that as it may, this put me in the position where I could ask Seacore whether my action had failed because MoI had died, just as Pine had done. Naturally I expected the same response, and it was, almost. I asked a straight question, and received a straight answer. Nothing roundabout or ambiguous about it whatsoever.

I'm 95% certain of Pine being the last chaotic evil scum.

Now, some further explanations for my play may be in order. When I saw BBmolla's claim, I of course knew immediately he was lying. I found Shadoweh's claim suspicious too - I'm not completely gullible - but with a larger wagon on confirmed scum, it was clear where my vote would go. The same applies to yesterday. Given the bad situation of the lawful good town and what had happened to greenknight, there was no way I would claim if I could help it. I tried to have BBmolla lynched without having to out myself while evading scum attention at the same time. It nearly worked too. PeregrineV derailed the lynch at the last moment, but I am still here while MoS was killed, undoubtedly for his strong push against BBmolla. After those scum deaths what was unthinkable yesterday became the obvious right move today, which is why I am claiming now.

I also never considered CooLDoG suspicious, contrary to what PeregrineV tried to show. I did criticize MoI for his town read on CooLDoG, but I did not disagree with his conclusion, only with his reason. It bothered me that he declared CooLDoG town for his confusion about the hydra makeup, while that was the only part of his play I found suspicious. It was not nearly enough to overturn my town read on him though, I believed he was town right until the flip. He had me thoroughly fooled.

Finally, about my ability and why I'm keeping it secret. All I will say about it willingly is that it lets me find out something about my targets. Something, but not everything. If I reveal what exactly it does, scum can easily claim around it, but if I keep them guessing, there is a chance I can catch the last scum lying.

Now, I propose the following course of action:

1. We lynch BBmolla today.
2. Tonight I use my action for the last time, hoping to learn something to help the chaotic good town after I'm gone.
3. In the best case, two lawful good players are killed, which does not matter, since they would have left the game anyway when Pine is lynched. In the worst case, two chaotic good players die, but that would require the last chaotic evil player to abandon his win condition, since there are now two known lawful players.
4. Lawful good town full claim. Anything that can help the chaotic good is revealed. I would prefer to be last, if I live the night, and reveal what my ability is and what I've done with it.
5. Pine is lynched. Lawful good town win and leave the game, significantly reducing the pool of potential suspects, leaving chaotic good town in an excellent position to hunt down the final lawful evil scum.

Vote: BBmolla

I can't think of anything else to add. Any questions?

[Pine]

If you haven't read the thread, here's the Twitter-size version of the current wagon:

A while ago, BB claimed Lawful Good Wizard, with Hold Person as a roleblocking power. Feysal was among those who immediately ans consistently suspected his claim. Just now, Feysal counter-claimed BB, as a Lawful Good Wizard, though not roleblocker. Both are kind of scummy, but Feysalscum has no incentive to lock himself into a counterclaim that he won't win. Ergo, BBscum.

Probably a bit more than 140 characters, but I tried.

[Pine]

Actually, we really need a flip or three to help sort out this mess

[Pine]

Agree that Feysal should claim though, AV is right that him surviving the night is not good odds

[Pine]

Wait nevermind, he said he was blocked, so the actual actions he tried to take are irrelevant, and could actually help scum determine whether to kill him.

[Pine]

He claimed two. Ah wait, there's been three nights. I'm addlepated due to exams

[Pine]

Dude, if you could identify the last CE, that would end the LG/CE game and make me a full cop. What'd you wait for?

[Pine]

What, CG isn't allowed Doctors or something?

PE: Oversoul, if we kill the last CE, that's a win for LG, and the Town becomes a LOT smaller. Unless you're suggesting it's 9:4/9:4? I'd love to hear what made you think that.

[Pine]

Yeah, that's pretty farfetched. I expected something less half baked. Disappointed.

What's more likely is that all eleven base classes are represented. Druid was our pregame NPC dead, leaving us with 10. We know that there's at least one Commoner on each scumteam, so the remaining 10 may be distributed as 3:2/3:2, which is about right for power balance.

Claims/Flips:
TN Druid (NPC)
LG Wizard (BB

and

Feysal
LG Cleric (greenknight)
CG Ranger (Shadow)
CG Bard (Pine)
CE Rogue (MoS)

Remaining classes:
Fighter (Any)
Paladin (MUST be LG)
Barbarian (MUST be Chaotic)
Monk (MUST be Lawful)
Sorcerer (Any)

This means that the LG PRs are Wizard/Paladin/Cleric. Monk must be one of the LE PRs. CG PRs are Ranger/Bard/Something.

Put simply, there simply aren't enough classes to go around for your "mirror" speculation to be plausible, Shadow.

[Pine]

Why the hell would you assume two PRs per team? That just doesn't pass Occam's Razor. There are ten classes available from core, and 3:2 is actually quite reasonable. You're reaching further and further to sustain your contrived system, despite it not really being based in anything but conjecture.

The effort and claim lends credibility to you being Town, but the facts and logic just don't follow.

[Pine]

Pretty sure I just said they probably DID have two per team. 3:2 = Town:Scum. It makes sense, that's pretty standardly balanced.

I think Monk might be the Lawful Evil Roleblocker. Stunning Fist is perfect flavor for roleblock.

[Pine]

Should read "Why the hell would you assume ONLY two PRs per team?"

It doesn't really make sense. There are ten base classes, assuming two just didn't make the cut not only is idiotic, it also results in severely underpowered Towns. Towns are already underpowered, considering they have to SHARE a day lynch, while both scumteams have their own nightkills to use freely. 2/10 Townies with PRs compared to 2/3 scum with PRs would be seriously scum-sided. Hell, I'm not even convinced the distribution isn't 4:1/4:1. That might actually be more balanced, given the shared lynch hindrance. It'd also explain why so many PRs have been useful so far.

[Pine]

Oh dammit. I just realized I confused myself even more. I'm trying to figure out how likely it would be for the scum team to have 2 PRs. It seems overpowered to me for them to have two power roles per team when they get a kill each night and we share the lynch. I suppose it's possible but I would expect some really powerful roles floating around if so.

Oh I also just realized something with Shadow's claim. Since BB has admitted to roleblocking Feysal and Feysal has admitted to being blocked we know that his remaining member had to make the kill. Since Shadow didn't see Mina move, she absolutely can't belong to LE, which I didn't think was possible based on interaction anyway. If she is evil, she has to be CE and MoS had to have been the one to make the kill.

Good catch.

[Pine]

Hmm. The only other time I've seen BB scumgaveup, we were close to his buddy.

[Pine]

I had a strong scumread on Brizingre almost from his first post, so I can definitely see Overscum as the last LE.

[Pine]

I'm actually Chaotic Neutral Monk. If I get lynched before the Lawful Neutral Druid, I win. But if I don't, then I become a serial killer and have to try to survive to endgame.

It's pretty obvious which path I took.

It's also pretty obvious that I'm completely lying in this post. Come on a Chaotic Neutral Monk? Don't be silly. What kind of bastard mod would make such a silly role.

<3 BB

[Pine]

I had a strong scumread on Brizingre almost from his first post, so I can definitely see Overscum as the last LE.

Why not CE?

Because BB is claimed LE, and I'm looking for his buddy.

[Pine]

The likelihood of a bus by Feysal is remote. Feysal has painted a giant target on himself for the CE team to shoot at. That would be ridiculously bad scumplay

[Pine]

The likelihood of a bus by Feysal is remote. Feysal has painted a giant target on himself for the CE team to shoot at. That would be ridiculously bad scumplay

>implying Feysel is not CE

Do you know something I don't?

...really? If Feysal is CE, he can't be bussing

How do we know that BBmolla isn't CE?

We don't.

But I don't think he wouldn't be falling on his sword if he were the last of his team, he'd be fighting tooth and nail. Also, this looks distinctly like what I saw in Warlocks & Werewolves, where he ostentatiously self-sacrificed to distract from his buddy.

[Pine]

Nah. There was a strong implication at some point during setup that it was going to be two minis stuck together, which suggests 10:3/10:3

[Pine]

BB, just to clear the air, you're LE, yes?

[Pine]

Idiot.

Your voice is sexy, though. Like,

really

sexy.

Junpei, don't be stupid. Feysal bussing BBMolla in that particular manner would be TOO risky. There' absolutely no benefit to it for scum in a known Multiscum setup like this. Like I've already said, Feysal painted a big target on his forehead for the CE scum with that claim. That's not even remotely worth the possible Townpoints.

[Pine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FRKEURw ... re=related
This is a good song.

Pine, pretend that Feysal is bussing BBmolla for a moment. You're the other scumteam. What do you see when you look at that claim? What about the rest of the town?

I

DID

pretend Feysal was bussing BB for a minute. From the other scumteam's perspective, they don't know that. They DO, however, see a claimed Lawful Good PR with undisclosed powers that just blew up scum. From the CE team's perspective, Feysal is public enemy number 1.

BB is a smart cookie. He's definitely smart enough to have thought it through that far. Therefore, there is no possible way he'd let his last buddy bus him when doing so would paint a GIANT FUCKING crosskill target on said buddy's back. It's just ridiculously, horribad scumplay.

@ mina, I am a male, and it has already been pointed out to me that my shadow attack was horrid, I still have quite a bit of learning left to do about this game.

No shit

[Pine]

Go ahead and hammer BB.

You're an idiot if you buy Oversoul Town though.

[Pine]

Go ahead and hammer BB.

You're an idiot if you buy Oversoul Town though.

Should perhaps modify this a bit. I'm not saying Oversoul is slam-dunk confscum, but Zdenek's suggestionof Oversoul/Brizingre as obvious Town was such a ridiculous assertion it required mockery.

[Pine]

What the fuck are you talking about, Junpei?

Feysal busses BB.
Feysal is now the only Lawful Evil scum.
Chaotic Evil scum see a claimed Lawful Good power role.
Chaotic Evil kills Feysal.
Feysal and BB lose the game.

This is not a complicated train of logic, considering you're the only one that doesn't get it. Ergo, they are not buddies.

[Pine]

Big FOS on Junpei. Town has absolutely zero reason to believe there are four on each team. If we lynch a third person for either scumteam and that half of the game doesn't end, Junpei gets turbolynched

[Pine]

=====[]

[Pine]

Both scumteams should be down to one member now. It's time for ethics claim.

I got a result last night, no roleblock. I'll be withholding it until after massclaim, to see if they lie or not.

The reason I'm alive is pretty obvious - they had dangerous claimed power roles to kill, and they're still hopeful that I'm going to eat a lynch.

[Pine]

I'll be holding onto my vote until after ethics claim and my result reveal, but the people I want to see dead over the next two lynches are Oversoul and Junpei, in that order of preference. Looking over my notes on Oversoul/Brizingre, I just cannot justify that slot as Town. Eliminating one faction will blow the game wide open, and I have reason to believe that he'll flip Lawful Evil.

[Pine]

Pine, since encryption is allowed, I think you should post all your results, encrypted, now, so that we'll be able to verify them when the claims are done.

I only have one unclaimed result, and I'm really not very good at encryption. I'm concerned that they'd see right through it.

Massclaim is fine. Bigger Town doesn't fuck the smaller one, they help the smaller one win quicker, then immediately catches any scum that told the truth about their ethics. Any scum that lied about their ethics risk getting targeted.

PE: BULLSHIT

[Pine]

People Who I'd be fine with lynching:
AVoX
Empking
MoS
Pine
+ any of the lurkers
This game now seems to have degenerated into a 'who can shout the loudest' competition, lets try and put it back on track.

I'm sceptical about the validity of Pine's claim, and hugely dislike the way he seems to be trying to divide the town into a Chaos vs Lawful battle, we had agreed to try and avoid that, that and his generally aggresive play and his early roleclaim makes him mildly scummy

I don't like this post from MoS: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3960496, I don't like the way he suddenly backtracks from Tammy and trys to encourage the BB lynch, who's only crime so far has been lurking, and his defence of Pine seems slightly dodgy.

Empking still isn't posting any kind of reasoning and I cant understand why he wants CD lynched

@Empking

in your own words, why do you want a CoolDog lynch?

And I still want an AVoX lynch, my reasoning hasn't changed from my last post.

This was Brizingre's first post after I claimed blocked from investigating MoI. Brizingre would have been all over me, maybe directly to the point of counterclaiming, if Oversoul's claim were true.

[Pine]

Wait, how the hell do you know BB isn't a Roleblocker? Town has no information to the contrary.

[Pine]

Well, Oversoul's right about one thing. CG can indeed afford the mislynch.

I investigated one of these three people: Tammy, Junpei, or Haze. I want ethics claims out of them, specifically, before I get lynched. Scum will have to risk whether I chose them or not, and whether to lie. My investigation will be vindicated when I flip.

PE: Feysal claiming one Wizard spell (Detect Thoughts) does not preclude an Evil Wizard having a different one (Hold Person), just like one Good Cleric (greenkight) had a different power than an Evil Cleric (Oversoul) is claiming. Morons.

[Pine]

Pine said very specifically that he was waiting until after mass ethics claim. He also pointed at you as his top scumread prior to your claim. Dick.

[Pine]

Junpei, claim your ethical alignment. Now.

[Pine]

Right. Messy claim explained. I don't buy it.

Let's table this discussion until after ethics claim. Either Oversoul or I are getting lynched today, no question. If it's me (and I suspect it will be) you ARE DEFINITELY LYNCHING HIM TOMORROW, GOT IT?

[Pine]

Wait, Oversoul can't be scum. Will explain after work. Well shit.

[Pine]

Junpei, ethics claim

[Pine]

Wait is Oversoul saying that Pine doesn't have a role? If that is part of the claim, then it's incorrect because Shadow tracked Pine to Chesskid on night two. If that wasn't part of the discussion sorry...I do need to read it again.

Pine claimed Chaotic. He was actually Lawful.

No, I'm not. The only evidence to the contrary is that Oversoul protected MoI from Law on Night One, and I was among those that got roleblocked. The only explanation is that I was independently blocked by BB (or whomever the scum blocker is/was). I understand this is hard to believe, which is why I'm not going to fault Town for lynching me. False positives happen occasionally, but you've got to trust them when Town is this far ahead

[Pine]

Junpei. I investigated you.

Or maybe I didn't.

Claim your ethics, or I will.

[Pine]

No. I want you to CHOOSE which to commit to - tell the truth and risk exposure if the other side leaves the game, or lie and hope that I'm bluffing and I investigated one of the others

[Pine]

That's practically a scumclaim in my book. Why so afraid to disclose? Worried about that gamble, huh?

[Pine]

^Refers to Junpei

[Pine]

Moneybags is clearly not paying attention, though. Oversoul is saying I'm Lawful Evil, which would give CG the win, not LG. Curious, as that would allegedly include him. You'd think he'd be more enthusiastic

PE: Then claim. I am truly not concerned with appearances any longer for myself, I'm a dead man walking. If I were scum, I'd do what BB did. There's no way to talk myself out of this, and I condone the coming mislynch as vitally necessary. You, on the other hand, will survive my imminent demise, and before I go, I want to force you to commit to one or the other.

[Pine]

This further resistance is obviously based in fear, not principle. Town has no reason to fear ethics claim, scum does.

[Pine]

I think I'm at L-2

Hammer before Junpei claims and I reveal my result should be regarded as an outright scumclaim, though

[Pine]

Initially I called him a liar about his entire claim, top to bottom, still thinking he was LE based entirely on the associations with BBMolla. Until 3821, I was operating entirely on the assumption that he was still Lawful Evil, trying to malign one of the biggest threats to his wincon.

While I was driving to work, I had a chance to cool down and re-evaluate things. Oversoul simply does not make sense as scum,

especially

if we're in a 10:3/10:3 situation like we've been theorizing all game. First and foremost, engaging in a situation that is tantamount to a 1-to-1 situation with someone that's going to flip Town makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE if he's scum. Maybe if it were LyLo or close to it, but this isn't LyLo. Pretty far from it, actually. Second, everything about his claim makes a degree of sense. Both Towns having a Cleric jengas with me, and having his claimed power makes a lot of sense. Third, claiming when he did and in the situation he did makes a lot of sense from a Town perspective.

In other words, Town is about to get fucked by an unfortunate PR interaction. And that's okay, because it was good logic and sound thinking that led to a completely wrong conclusion, and failing to lynch me either today or tomorrow (I'd rather lynch Junpei today, given his behavior and the chance for one more investigation) would be a total failure of common sense. Resolving the question of my status is essential, and it's not going to go away.