A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.

Worriedmuch?

VOTE: Starbuck

Also, question. How about picking a suspicious/scummy person to send to kill Jon Snow or whatever. I mean, mathematically, if we do pick scum, then all they will really do is kill a town person, vs a scum dying. And if we pick town, it will at least narrow down the scum pool, and at the same time, the town person is making a town-minded decision (or we can even pre-determine who they should shoot if they're town).

What do you guys think?

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm not Tammy, Minimum, I'm Tierce. Tammy = Lyanna.

We'll see.

Choosing should be policy lynch central since I can easily imagine choosing scum and giving that scumbag a strongman vig being worse for the town than taking out 2 townies that would otherwise get mislynched or screw up in some other way.

Umm, I don’t see this (the part about picking scum can be worse that 2 townies dying). Scum already have a nightkill. Giving them one extra vig shot cannot cause that much more mayhem, esp vs killing a scum off. Plus it would lower down the suspect pool if they’re a suspicious person.

In either case, I see killing off a suspicious person doing more good than harm. Choosing someone out of policy is pointless. Why no policy lynch the first day and have the suspicious person sent to kill Snow instead?

[Dolorous Edd]

Deadline

: 3rd August at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)

Oh dear. We're going backwards in time :/

~Fixed.

[Dolorous Edd]

Mina why did you switch your rvs already?

I could've sworn that second vote was a bit more serious, no? Esp considering Starbuck's awkward start.

Are you his scumbuddy?

[Dolorous Edd]

I agree with Dolorous, to an extent. This is a suicide mission, so we have no way of forcing the assassin to kill who we want. Therefore the ultimate decision lies with the vig, but in the meantime we should of course offer our input. What does it matter anyway how we dispose of suspect players? From the scumhunting point of view, none. Everything we say will influence the choice made by whoever we eventually send, and right or wrong, what we say will be used to determine where our own loyalties lie.

This.

Everytime we lynch, scum is putting their input in. But majority is always with town. So picking a target for the mission commander, if he's town, will be like picking a lynch.

OTOH, if the commander strongly disagrees, he can pick his own target. He's town, so it will be town-minded. But that doesn't mean town shouldn't offer their input just because scum have some influence.

[Dolorous Edd]

If we choose scum,

in the best case said scum misses town and cross kills rival scum

, and in the worst case he kills town, resulting in a one for one trade.

This is multiball?

How can you be so sure (unless it's made obv somewhere)?

[Dolorous Edd]

Actually,

Choose: Feysal

I just re-read the first posts. No where does it state we have more than one scum team. It's indicated a bit, but the way you said it makes it seem more than assumption.

[Dolorous Edd]

Sorry, meant to bold that.

CHOOSE: Feysal

[Dolorous Edd]

Point out any mistakes that you see.

Mod, I should be the second CHOOSE on Feysal, not Shadow1psc.

~Fixed

[Dolorous Edd]

This is multiball?

How can you be so sure (unless it's made obv somewhere)?

PEdit: That.

Obviously I cannot be certain. That would be part of why I referred to a cross kill as the best case scenario.

Ummm, no. People mention "best case scenarios" when they are certain of their possibility, but not certain of it happening. What you said makes a big assumption, without even giving a mention to the fact that you're assuming.

But seriously - we have a large theme with 28 players, prequels most of which had two scum teams, and even in the few snippets of flavor we've seen there have been references to multiple threats.

Of course

I expect this to be multiball.

You know, this would've been a lot better had it actually been in the post where you mentioned multiball.

But I don't really blame you. I would be stuck on what to say too if I were in your shoes.

Why would anyone suspect this to be multiball? The last Game of Thrones mafia wasn't. Scumslips are still stupid and never work, the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire. I consider this a double lynch that gives the second suspect a vengekill.

Vote: Dolorous Edd

Choose: Minimum

I don't think I follow you at all :/

You said that you can't see how anyone would see this as multiball.

Yet you vote me and Min...

While Feysal is the one who slipped with the multiball...

Though you also mention that scumslips are stupid.

So, which is it?

Also could Hydras sign their posts.

Grrrrr. This can get tedious. But this is Arthur (and everything previous was me too, Alek didn't post yet).

[Dolorous Edd]

I disagree that this should be used as a second scum lynch and if that makes me scum in everyone's eyes so be it.

So what do you think it should be used as?

And why are you choosing yourself?

[Dolorous Edd]

I don't understand how everyone is so sure that scum would shoot another scum. It's being said like it is fact and that it will definitely happen that way. I don't believe it will, so while my opinion on it is unpopular (look at all the people who have hopped on my bandwagon to prove that point), I don't believe that it is wrong or scummy.

Wait what?...

I don't get this. Like, at all :/

No one is saying scum is going to shoot another scum. We're saying if we choose scum, then all they will get is a vig shot. That means we trade 1 for 1. 1 scum for 1 town. Which, mathematically, makes good sense for town.

Who said they were sure scum would shoot another scum? I mean, other than Feysal, and he got jumped on for having inside info that it's multiball...

[Dolorous Edd]

What does one have to do with the other?

Umm, obv you can't point out to something that makes someone look suspcious and then vote the people who pointed out the same thing and voted that person...

This kind of response is what

I'm voting you for, along with the bad double bandwagon hopping

.

Are you really serious? Wtf? I am the first vote on Star and I'm the second on Feysal (and the first to point out what made him look suspicious, mind you). How the fuck am I "double bandwagoning"?

Do you have some opinion of Minimum that makes you upset I voted them?

No, but neither do you seem like you have an opinion for

why

you're voting them.

[Dolorous Edd]

Point out any mistakes that you see.

Umm,

Mod: I should be the second CHOOSE on Feysal, not Shadow1psc

.

[Dolorous Edd]

This kind of response is what

I'm voting you for, along with the bad double bandwagon hopping

.

Are you really serious? Wtf? I am the first vote on Star and I'm the second on Feysal (and the first to point out what made him look suspicious, mind you). How the fuck am I "double bandwagoning"?

I'm actually really annoyed you said this actually. I'm trying to push for what's catching my eye and what's rubbing me the wrong way, and I get accused of fucking "double bandwagon hopping"? At least if I get accused or attacked of something, let it be partly true, other than just throwing shit in the air.

[Dolorous Edd]

Umm, obv you can't point out to something that makes someone look suspcious and then vote the people who pointed out the same thing and voted that person...

the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire

The words are right fucking there. You're misrepresenting what I said in the worst possible way. On the other hand, you're the one who went "OMG HE SAID MULTIBALL!" /o/

Umm, no. I'm not voting him because he said or even assumed it was multi-ball. I'm voting him because he said it like it was an obv thing that everyone knew. It fits with a scum who already knows there is another faction out there and carelessly said it as part of a discussion.

Let me put it another way then that you should understand. Your original vote on Starbuck is typical RVS. Your pursuit of her is continuing over game theory (that you agreed with earlier, that we shouldn't try to pick scum to have the vig) and because you don't get something Starbuck appears to be hopeless confused about. Can you tell me what is scummy about what she's saying? I think you're just staying on the wagon that picked up and justifying your stay with questions that bring out more theory-related confusion instead of pulling out scum reads.

Just because someone is confused or acts confused doesn't mean they're not scum. Scum can get confused too.

Granted, though, I have lessened my scumread on Star. But my vote is going to camp there until I find a better spot to move it to.

It's stereotypical. You also sound like you've forgiven him later, but I don't see you rushing to change your cozy position.

Again, what are you expecting me to have full on reads on every single person when it's this early in the game. Those are the things that caught my eye. And those are the things I feel warranted a vote.

Why do you care what the person you're voting thinks about your points on her? Your vote is based on the same misunderstanding of theory, except you seem to think she's purposely pushing bad logic. Why aren't you going after Edd then,

since he proposed we give the vig to town?

Wtf? When did I "propose we give the vig to town"? You're pulling shit out of your ass and trying to misrep me over nothing. Re-read my posts, and tell me where I proposed that.

What

is

suspect about this multiball thing (by all means, pappums--go read a few Feysal posts elsewhere) is the offhanded way Feysal addressed it, as anyone who has read or played with him will realize. Feysal has a tendency to wax prose over every single point that is not an established fact, and here there was an 'assumption' that he simply took and ran with without developing it. It feels awkward, out of place--as if it is already fact for him because he knows his scumteam is too small to be alone.

This.

Point out any mistakes that you see.

Umm,

@MOD: I should be the first CHOOSE on Feysal, not Shadow1psc.

Pedit: Ninjaed by some people.

Woopsy. Let's just quote this so it stays in my ISO.

~Gonna delete the post from your main

[Dolorous Edd]

It fits with a scum who already knows there is another faction out there and carelessly said it as part of a discussion.

It also fits with Town drawing a pretty logical conclusion. Furthermore – Feysal is not careless regardless of alignment. Discuss how this impacts your read.

Everyone can slip though. If he already read that there are other factions out there, and he got it stuck in his head, he could've managed to forget that not everyone knew that, and mentioned it as part of a discussion.

Who cares why we did it... DO YOU think scum would ever self choose? No.... so walk away and ask questions that matter. (This looks like why isn't MoI being a dick to everyone questioning him herdy her)

Of course scum can self-choose. Just because they're voting themselves doesn't mean they will be picked or anything.

[Dolorous Edd]

Early Reads:
Town:
18) Benmage
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
4) Dolorous Edd (Ser Arthur Dayne/bodean44)
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
9) MagnaofIllusion

12) hasdgfas

14) Regfan

20) Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)

22) Pandora (Hydra)

24) Starbuck

25) BBmolla

26) SnowStorm

28) StefanB


Scum:
1)Minimum (Mina/CES)

10) Plum's Yo Mamma

11) redFF

13) Shadow1psc

Other:
5) Staeg
15) pappums rat
21) Feysal
23) Salamence20


Who??:
3) Mockingjaye
7) Petyr Baelish (zoraster)
8) Hyperion
16) Sword_of_Omens
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin
27) Jal

Please elaborate on the underlined.

Also, what is the "other" category.

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Salamence20VOTE:

Do you have anything to contribute that might be remotely useful?

[Dolorous Edd]

Fail,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Salamence20

[Dolorous Edd]

Let's talk about the bolded though - why would you assume Feysal scum in Multiball would have read about other scum? No Eddard Stark game so far that I have played in that was Multiball has specifically mentioned it in the role PM. Your scum read is based on facts that Town shouldn't be considering. Did you just slip and indicate that your scum PM tells you it is Multiball? Jumping on others who mention Multiball when you are scum yourself is a scum-tell I have seen prove effective in the past [most recently WrathChild in Star Wars Mafia].

Wut?

I'm saying it's possible that in the scum PM it mentions other factions, esp flavor wise (ex, You are Dany, you wanna kill the Lannisters, but don't forget about your other threat Stannis too).

[Dolorous Edd]

OR simply I am a sfum team of 3 there must be another team.... Something like that would make more sense.

This too.

Nope. You need to read for comprehension BB. The point is that Dol Edd is inventing reasons to attack which indicates to me the odds are higher that he is indeed scum who knows / suspects (from team size) it is Multiball and thinks he has ‘caught’ other scum slipping.
--

How come you always manage to find a ridiculous reason to just throw shit my way?

[Dolorous Edd]

Dolorous Edd said the same in his first post:

And if we pick town, it will at least narrow down the scum pool, and at the same time, the town person is making a town-minded decision (or we can even pre-determine who they should shoot if they're town).

Umm, misrepmuch?

Nice crop there. But the whole post was:

Also, question. How about picking a suspicious/scummy person to send to kill Jon Snow or whatever. I mean, mathematically, if we do pick scum, then all they will really do is kill a town person, vs a scum dying. And if we pick town, it will at least narrow down the scum pool, and at the same time, the town person is making a town-minded decision (or we can even pre-determine who they should shoot if they're town).

Also, my reason for the "picking town" is picking a suspicious person, and if they

happen

to be town, then at least it narrows down the suspect pool + still puts the vig in hands of a townie.

Your reasons on the other hand seem to make no sense. You want to give it to someone we suspect is town?! But who we will somehow magically determine to be VT? In hopes of them shooting scum? Instead of trying to catch scum with it, so we can guarantee we would be killing of a scum?

[Dolorous Edd]

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

Did your question have any more motivation that just this?

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Starbuck

Sorry if for an instance I thought she might've been town. She's not.

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, you're going down a dreadfully wrong track. It's going to end in blood, pain and a lot of defeatist thoughts at the edge of the world. Starbuck is not scum, she's town with an idea on how to play that differs from yours.

Not anyone with an original idea is town though.

And her idea makes zero sense. And she hasn't attempted to explain it either.

I am perfectly fine with people having different ideas. As long as I can see where they're coming from. And I can't see where she is genuinely coming from.

[Dolorous Edd]

Real quick before I go. I wasn't meaning to misrep, but to show that you did have the same idea about using a townie rather than someone who may be scum on the contrary to your previous sentence.

But... we didn't have the same idea? Like, not at all.

It seemed like you were just pulling up quotes from people to show that they had the "same idea as you", in a way to say "so why am

I

being suspected for it, and not

them

." Which makes you scummy.

[Dolorous Edd]

Like Tierce said, we have different ideas, but you did express something similar to my idea.

This is not "Fake it till you make it". Repeating something over and over won't make it true at some point. I still fail to see how our thoughts were even remotely similiar, except for the fact we were both pondering on what if an innocent was picked. This, OTOH, is what you were possibly aiming for:

It seemed like you were just pulling up quotes from people to show that they had the "same idea as you", in a way to say "so why am I being suspected for it, and not them." Which makes you scummy.

You can't deny that. In any case, I don't think your disagreement with me makes you scum.

I feel like this is somehow aimed to please me?

I agree with you on how to use the choosing, but you are guilty of some misrepresentation of your own here. Starbuck is claiming VT and choosing themselves. There's no "magical determination" involved in that plan.

Umm, no, before she had picked herself, she had it in mind to send a VT.

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

[Dolorous Edd]

Hey, D.Edd, is all the content you've been posting purely Arthur content?

Yes.

Dolorous Edd

I don't think Alek's been posting, or if he has it hasn't been much at all. If he hasn't posted, why not? Please have him start posting. I'd like to feel more confident on my read on you guys. Thanks.

I'm not sure why he hasn't posted yet

But he said he was lost in the beginning and is trying to catch up, so he should show up soon

(As a note, I'm moving in to college this week, so it's going to be hectic and stuff, so I'll be V/LA for a bit.)

How come you always manage to find a ridiculous reason to just throw shit my way?

Calling out your behavior is hardly a 'ridiculous' reason to suspect you. Fact stands that it is more likely for Town than scum to be the first to broach "Multiball" and more likely Scum to be the one who jumps on them for bringing up the possibility.

Sheeping MOI

adding to this, you did say:

Yea, I was surprised at that too...

Also, there is so many possible anti-town factions:

The Greyjoys
Stannis
Dany
The Martells
Aegon/Connington/Varys/Illyrio

And I can see Tyrion being an SK

It looks like you are already suggesting multiball, but then attack Feysal for suggesting ti.

Choose: Deolrous Edd

This is ridiculous. There is a difference between speculating about multiball and mentioning it offhandedly like it's common knowledge. Or are you having trouble seeing that?

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

Your sudden unvote for Starbuck and vote for Sal in post 214, for example. It took me quite awhile going through the thread looking for any recent Sal posts you were referring to. You're telling me that given your level of participation in this thread along with other suspect contributors whoch you underlined in Benmage's town/scum post, your legitimate next-best vote was Sal? I don't buy it.

Your re-vote for Starbuck indicates your unvote from earlier was due to you thinking that she's town. What made you start thinking she's town?

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

@BB:

I really couldn't get a could gauge on Sal's alignment with his wall post. What about it seem town enough to make him go from obv scum to town in your eyes?

Meanwhile, I'd like to see Starbuck post without being on the defensive constantly, or at the very least give us some content while doing so. Hasdgfas strikes me as town along with Benmage a long ways after. There's just something off about Tyene's posts I can't quite pinpoint.

VOTE: Dorlorous Edd

Aww, I don't even get a "hi" after all we've been through (Newbie 1237!!)

In any case, I voted Sal because I looked up at the VC and saw a decent wagon that I can add some pressure to. Plus I wanted Sal to contribute more.

About my unvote of Star, I thought she was genuinely confused when she said we should pick scum to target other scum or something like that which was just weird, but then it all just felt off when her idea didn't make sense at all, and I can't see where she's coming from.

[Dolorous Edd]

We're not lynching Hydrina or choosing them today.

You know, this would hold a lot more weight if
a) You gave a reason.
and b) If you have actually contributed fuck to this game.

Until then, you're being useless.

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

Tbh, no, I wasn't really interested in the answer. But throwing out vague statments that are missing the the key component - the

why

- is rather tedious to deal with.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

I wasn't asking to test him.

I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.

@Jal

- Let's see:

Early Reads:
Town:
18) Benmage
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
4) Dolorous Edd (Ser Arthur Dayne/bodean44)
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
9) MagnaofIllusion

12) hasdgfas

14) Regfan

20) Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)

22) Pandora (Hydra)

24) Starbuck

25) BBmolla

26) SnowStorm

28) StefanB


Scum:
1)Minimum (Mina/CES)

10) Plum's Yo Mamma

11) redFF

13) Shadow1psc

Other:
5) Staeg
15) pappums rat
21) Feysal
23) Salamence20


Who??:
3) Mockingjaye
7) Petyr Baelish (zoraster)
8) Hyperion
16) Sword_of_Omens
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin
27) Jal

I pretty much had a null read on cow. I was seeing if I missed something that made him look town.
I had/have a weak scum read on Plessiezarus.
Obv I have a scum read on Starbuck.
BBmolla was pretty much null.
So was SnowStorm.
Plum's Yo Mamma was a slight townread.
and Shadow1psc, while he has being stupid, was a null read.

Pedit: STOP NINJAING ME. I actually want to post this by today ._.

[Dolorous Edd]

VOTE: Pandora

I hated how he come right in and started defending Feynal...reeks of scumbuddies...

So I say we lynch one and send the other to the wall

Also,

Snow and Refgan are town, obviously so, I know Snow it wayy to awkward as scum to be posting this much and Refgan hates being scum and tends to over lurk alot, I know meta boo, w/e

Starbuck is Null, I didn't Like I am a townie so vote me blah blah blah, but I don;t see that coming from scum esspically this early in the game..so small point in her(?) favor..

Everyone else is pretty much Blah Blah Blah, you all make my head hurt...

Plessie/Zar is prob scum also, if this is multiball? I assume that is multifaction,...

Mina/Ces null, as I can see them being eithier or right now based on their posts...

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

that is all i can think of now so later

[Dolorous Edd]

Also,

Let look at the odds...

Why should we choose someone who is town? They are more likly to hit town then scum right?

So why not use this has what is really is a second lynch they has a payment..

We lynch the strongest scum read and send the second strongest to die at the wall..

this increases are chances of hitting scum them giving it to a strong town read and lett him make a guess and end up hitting town..

Does this make sens to anyone else, or all you really all that dense?

[Dolorous Edd]

This is all Alek(bodean44) btw

[Dolorous Edd]

Aww love you too lynna

Assume what you want... I do alot..

Really Pandora just looks bad, from his first post at how he defended the whole multiball slip from fenyal to attaking Arthur for"bandwagon hopping" when Arthur was one of the first two ont he wagon.. go figure huh..

I agree with Aruther that the whole multi-ball comment was off, I agree with Arthur that he looks scummy becasue of it

[Dolorous Edd]

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

Aww really, Well how bad was it effected? if just a little then you can blame my scummish nature, but if alot then maybe your scumdar is just broke?

Anyways very much town here Also, I mean read Pandora for your self and tell if you think i am wrong, Iso him..

Also, This Hydra stuff will be intresting but confusing in the end..

Lyanna Who are you scum reads right now?

[Dolorous Edd]

I will try to keep up but I got to jet for now I will be back later to day to answer all the questions yall have for me...

Also Hint: Too tellt he difference from me and Arthur, I am from Texas so I will use yall alot and I make lots of spelling errors alot so bear with me


Later Folks take care and find that scum

[Dolorous Edd]

You know, this would hold a lot more weight if
a) You gave a reason.
and b) If you have actually contributed fuck to this game.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed to spell every-fucking-thing out for you. Should I get an interpreter to point you to the

very next fucking post I made?

That was the reason?

Please, by all means, go on believing that makes her look town or whatever, but like Tammy said (I think?), there is not one thing that can be used as alignment indicative.

Just ftr, sucking on Day1 is not a reason for you not being lynched.

Neither is having a meta of acting scummy.

But tell me, what was your read on them before that?

Because unless you seeked council from the oracle of delphi, I really don't see how that post could've at all changed your thought at all...

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hyperion

[Dolorous Edd]

checking in. no idea what's going on yet. Still pretty pissed I wasn't given Littlefinger despite mod's agreement.

Now I'm just an idiot with an unmatched alt name.

Ah well. Will catch up later.

Join the club

[Dolorous Edd]

Dolorous Edd

Why do you have a weak scum read on Plessiezarus? Also, why is SnowStorm null. (obv I'm asking the Arthur head on that.)

They mostly seem like they are snipping from the sidelines and nitpicking here and there to look like they are contributing and staying active, but at the same time they are really not taking strong stances nor expressing strong opinions. Pless is always more of an attacker as town, and I don't remember Zar being this much middle-of-the-roadish either.

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

[Dolorous Edd]

Why would anyone suspect this to be multiball? The last Game of Thrones mafia wasn't. Scumslips are still stupid and never work, the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire. I consider this a double lynch that gives the second suspect a vengekill.

Vote: Dolorous Edd

Choose: Minimum

PS: Maybe he wanted it secret when he was just alting but I had no intention of being a secret hydra. SORRY QUILLY. He was like hey we never do anything together anymore wanna hydra and I was like okay and he was like how about this game of thrones game and I was like but Tierce isn't in it and then it turned out she was in it so Yay! The end. I will not remember to sign posts but I like to think I'm distinctive right?

@ Plezz/Zar

This is the post that makies me uneasy...

His first post in the game he come right out and attacks arthur over the multiball issue...

His first paragraph feels forced and defenisve, even though he wasn't even being attacked..Also notice the use of "Scum slips are useless and never work?"

I have seen them work before and I believe as scum they would want to push that idea so people would be less confidant..

But if scum slips don;t work, How do town slips work? it is a two way street, I don;t see how you can have one without the other..

Nut this whole post felt off too me

[Dolorous Edd]

Plssie/Zar, obviously you short term memory is wacky has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

[Dolorous Edd]

>.<

these posts are from Alek btw if you didn;t already know

[Dolorous Edd]

It doesn't sit right when you spend one post talking about how the dinosaur is sniping then spend the next one trying to sell them your suspect.

The first was me talking about how PlessZar are scum, the other was Alek.

So I haven't gotten a full re-read since my last post in today but why has Dol Edd responded to multiple other players but not my questions?

What were your questions again?

Fell behind due to some craziness around here over the past few days. Will be catching up when I get home from class tonight.

Starbuck

- You said first (before you picked yourself), that you would rather the Choice vig go in the hands of a VT. How did you expect to determine a person who is VT?

[Dolorous Edd]

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I do not buy this excuse at all, especially coming from what I assume is CES. It’s frankly bullshit given his style of play.

Umm, I think this needs clarification, because at least 3 different people already misinterpreted it.

Tammy mentioned that in a Wheel of Time themed Westeros game, he was being lazy, etc.

He said he wasn't, that he was overwhelmed by the pace of that game.

I think it's pretty clear from the conversation <_<

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

Yeah, Reck is pretty uncool (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.

Overwhelmed? I'm not following. It's not like you're new to the game.

Overwhelmed by the pace.

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay, Arthur-head will be V/LA. Hopefully, I can get settled quickly and be able to check back here.

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay First thing what does V/LA mean excatly, I assume somthing about not being able to play much as both Arthur and Hyperion have used that same thin in reference to leaving..

@Pless

I can;t explain Aruthur's vote for Hyperion mainly becuse I disagree with it as he is null for me and with 5 posts not really much to go on i say

But I do know he feels that Hyperion is scummy for sotmhong i think :\

Also, Lyanna/ Tammy is right she does get me lynched alot so she is a good judge of meta on me..

Also, I say that I have not read another of Refgan's other games but the one I have played with him feels different to me, totally looks genuie, if you don;t believe meta then call it a gut feeling as that might describe it better..

As for you, I haven't played with Zar much as he mods just about every game On Westeros..

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and like to force your opinions on others, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

@MoI What where your questions and who were they for Alek or Arthur?

[Dolorous Edd]

(Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum (see example). OTOH, I’m not familiar with Regfan-meta too much, so I’m not sure if he tends to do this as town.)

[Dolorous Edd]

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and

like to force your opinions on others

, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

Ah, Alek put it in much much better words than I could’ve said.

(This, and post 500 are by yours truly The Sword of the Morning (That’s Ser Arthur Dayne for those who don’t know - I mean, this is a ASOIAF game <_<)

[Dolorous Edd]

@MoI

I assumed that was for Arthur to answer..

My comment about appealing to my "my scummish nature" is the running joke on westeros as in everygame I play in I am a suspect, people always find reasons to see me scummy, which makes it hard to play as scum alot of time..

As for Arthur's comment I can't I don't know his answer on meta at all, but for me you can use it all you want, but just know you will look bad if you are wrong

I honestly can sepeculate that what Arthur is actually refering too is that On Day 1 is is harder to get a solid read on people based on anything, even meta, and alot of it is gut feelings and assumtions..

It is not until later in the game that people will start to show patterns and start to really show scummy stuff..

this is only my second game on MS so It very well could be different here with the long Day1 as I am totally used to the 32 hr days at the Westeros Mafia

[Dolorous Edd]

>.< I will start signing them sure i think

-Alek

[Dolorous Edd]

@Lyanna

I was finished with Pandora, if you were expecting more I am sorry for dissipointing you then..

I understand others have defended the "Multiball slip" but I say that Pandora's defense felt defenseive rather then debatable, if you understand what i am saying..

The others seemed to defend in more like town would, while Pandora seemed like he was defending a partner in Trouble...

[Dolorous Edd]

Cerywn's Bible anyone?

[Dolorous Edd]

And yes, I Choose differently than I Vote and I've explained why.

[.....]

There is a difference between being lazy and just pushing shitty cases, which is what you were doing, given that you had no awareness of who I was voting.

UNCHOOSE: Feysal
CHOOSE: Mastermind of Sin

Please explain, on you basis that you already explained in how you treat both choose and vote, why MoS is a better choice than a vote.

Because the way I see it, you're saying that if MoS is town, you would trust him with a vig shot while knowing he was being lazy and pushing shitty cases as town?

[Dolorous Edd]

Pandora (1) - Dolorous Edd

@MOD: My vote should be on Hyperion. Umm, I think?

[Dolorous Edd]

Do you really think this is that viable a tell in a game you think is Multiball? Scum have every reason to scum-hunt in a Multiball environment. Personally I find it to be a “Not used to the noise” tell in Large games for players with no MS experience.

Who decided this game was Multiball?

Apparently it's obv *

*Not that I don't think it's multiball. But I

think

. Which is why more people should be jumping on Feysal...

[Dolorous Edd]

If Feysal were scum, he would be more likely to be careful in the first few posts of the game to not speculate on something that he had inside knowledge of. That he talked about the possibility of multiball doesn't mean he for sure slipped as scum. And people who are claiming that it's bs that people are calling it a scum slip don't have to be scum either.

This makes sense, although I might have to go back and read Feysal's post for myself.

(probably won't, though)

He mentioned it in a big post where he could've easily slipped and not payed attention because it came natural since he already knew there is more than one scum team, and it escaped him that it's not common knowledge (underlined is mine):

I just would rather put my Choose vote on someone that could be trusted to follow through on the action rather than give it scum or a policy lynch.

Do I understand right? You don't want to choose either scum or a policy lynch candidate, but you would rather send a town read in the hopes that said town read vigs scum?

I know we can gain info from the Choose votes, but I still question those who immediately Chose someone because, again, it should not fall into the hands of the scum.

First of all, the likelihood of someone getting locked as the assassin during RVS is no higher than someone being lynched in RVS. We have 28 players in game, most of whom have not even posted yet. You can't seriously be worried that someone would suddenly be chosen at this stage.

Secondly, you don't want to choose scum? Are you out of your mind? If we choose scum,

in the best case said scum misses town and cross kills rival scum

, and in the worst case he kills town, resulting in a one for one trade. If we choose town, in the best case said town succeeds at killing scum, and in the worst case he misses and kills town, resulting in two town members lost. On night one, working from limited information, the worst case scenario is far more likely too. When the best case scenario of choosing town is the same as the worst case scenario of choosing scum, it should be obvious what we should do.

UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion
VOTE: Starbuck

At this point

no one

speculated at anything relating to multiball, so coming off like that and saying it without saying something like "assuming" or something, yes, it's suspicious.

[Dolorous Edd]

And the languagebarrier is only my fault, not yours. If it is to difficult I will replace out. (Yes that was about her scumread on me)

No, please don't. Your English is fine.

I actually don't actually feel the language difference at all

Cerywn's Bible anyone?

1. So, you've decided it's multi-ball? and 2.) A little too early to be pulling out the activity chart

Umm, people already speculated about it. I haven't

decided

it yet. But if scum know it's multiball, then players like Benmage, Regfan, Pandora, and Tierce look good for starting the game strongly.

Checking in.
I read MoI as town and agree with his early posts regarding Minimum. Same with Lyanna and the latest page of Tierce/MoS. I think the attacks on Starbuck for thinking that Choosing town is correct policy are weak, and there's likely opportunistic scum in there. I'll catch up on everything in the middle later.

Vote: Minimum

Choose: Feysal

Uh, who are you?

By the way, Edd, you're still free to answer those questions whenever you like.

You can explain the inconsistency behind your suddenly acquired doubts about Regfan that I point out in Post 517, while you're at it.

I feel like I’m being interrogated here. What were your questions again, inquisitor?

[Dolorous Edd]

At this point

no one

speculated at anything relating to multiball, so coming off like that and saying it without saying something like "assuming" or something, yes, it's suspicious.

This is still a ridiculous reason to suspect anybody. The post you quote is not at all suspicious.

You missed what I was aiming at, didn't you?

(Though if you didn't, why is it "not at all suspicious"?)

[Dolorous Edd]

Cerywn's Bible anyone?

Hmm?

I think the great Whiskeyjack (he's a westerosi player) put it best (which is what the term Cerwyn's bible more or less means):

"In a game with 2 evil factions, an evil player who knows he can be killed by the other team will tend to avoid a leadership position, and avoid showing himself to be among the best players, because he doesn't want to be killed. He'll be more under the radar - he doesn't have to be the quietest...he just needs to be less aggressive and less of a threat than some of the other players."

So evil players in multiball tend to be in the middleish suspicious/lurkish. They don't want to be too suspicious because they can easily get lynched, yet at the same time they don't want to look too townish, because they can get killed by other scum. Thus,this theory would eliminate (or at least lessen) people like Benmage, Tyene, Regfan, and Pandora from the scum pool. And at the same time people like Jal, Sala, Plum, Mockingjay, Hyper would lean more towards scum who are trying to blend in based on their early start actions.

Pedt: Ninjaed by plesszar, so haven't read that, and I'll get to answering some of the questions in a bit.

[Dolorous Edd]

Pless already responded to this, but it's not just at game's start, it's based on activity level and contribution over the course of the days (and can't even really be broached until near deadline of the first day)

AND most importantly it applies when everyone is aware that it's multiball.

Umm, objection? I think it applies even better when only scum know it's multiball, no?

And sorry Pless, will really get to answering the questions <_<

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay, let’s get to this interrogation. This may turn into a wall and/or me bitching and/or ranting. Apologize in advance. And please don't let that stop you from reading the juiciness!

1) Pless asked you about your

Sudden transformation into CES

silent vote on Hyperion and the reasons behind it.

Seriously, I’m not going to sit here and tell you it was well thought out. I’m not going to tell you I have a super secret case on him. But GretaJim’s posts just rubbed me the wrong way. Almost, like, the trying-to-fit-in type and not really stand out. He dropped a very opportunistic (not opportunistic in the sense it is wagoning, but in the sense that it’s basically low hanging fruits and easily justifiable, but it just feels forced).

And I also saw the need to add pressure there. I always feel like in bigger games, scum feel much more at ease because there is such a high number of people to lynch, thus pressure on scums is very hard to create, and they can always deflect it on someone else because there is so many mini competing wagons, because with so many people, it’s hard to really think alike and much more likely for people to have different opinions that will tend to create these “mini” wagons with strong believers that don’t really

gain

much support, because hey, “why should

I

switch my vote on to another wagon I believe in less instead of

someone else

”. So it really creates this atmosphere, of almost, damn, what’s the word I’m looking for, dissociation? Thus, scum can easily fly through that, because just because they are being pressured by one or two or even five or six people, they can still easily wiggle out of it, esp by lurking or something. For example right now (and I know he didn’t do this on purpose, but just an example), when Hyper went on V/LA or whatever, and got replaced and stuff, he significantly lowered the suspicion on him, because a) It’s really pointless to create pressure when someone isn’t here to respond to it and b) People just start losing that passion, that drive, when someone isn’t posting, interacting, etc.

So it’s much better right now to create pressure than really having to

believe

in your vote. I’m not saying just bandwagon or something, but you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point. At least, that’s the way I see it, because otherwise, scum can easily slip by.

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer?

I wasn't asking to test him.

I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.

1) Where did I say you were testing him? If you wanted to see what he was thinking, why did you not share your thoughts and explain why/if you disagreed?

Umm, I really wasn’t asking so much to

respond

as much as to keep in mind and maybe reevaluate based on what he says. I was just more like

incorporating

it into my reads than anything else.

2) Why is Benmage "very likely town"? Statements that are missing the why are so tedious to deal with, after all...

As I said, he started the game out strongly, jumped right in, wasn’t really cautious, and really started scumhunting at an early stage. I think the majority if not all of scum would start the game on a cautious note especially in a game this large. You know, if you put yourself in a scum shoes, would you just really come out and start posting a lot and interact and stuff, or would you lean more towards the side of cautious?

1) Regfan's early posts made you assume he was town.

2) When you read him in iso, you decided he was suspicious, because...

3) Posting summaries and reads of lots of players is something you tend to do as scum.

Since I actually have reread Regfan recently, I'm finding this a bit hard to swallow. His very first post -- one of the posts that made you assume he was town -- is a big summary/read of lots of players. But apparently you find this sort of post suspicious .

Well, as scum, I don’t really do scummy stuff on purpose, but things that I would tend to lean more on what a townie would do. Stuff like big summary posts, tiers, stuff like that, I just tend to think that is what town would do, however, in practice, as a

townie

, my thought process works a lot differently (which is maybe why I get caught as scum ). I tend to lean a lot more towards the stream-of- consciousness assess as you go type of posting. However, just because

I

do that, my mind still firstly assumes that anyone who is looking like they are putting an effort and re-reading and posting summaries, tiers, etc. That’s why upon reading Regfan’s post first, my mind clicked right away “town”. Upon assessing it, however, it really didn’t strike me as town as it did the first time around, and I realized that someone can easily begin the game like that and look strong while merely just writing a lot of words summarizing and putting tiers and stuff.

All that being said, to add more the confusion, I am still leaning more town towards regfan than scum, because as I said above, I really think scum would be more cautious like that. Did regfan

know

he was going to be called town right away, or look townish to so many people? Maybe not. And that’s where it really differs from people like Tierce, Benmage, and Pandora. Which is basically why I still have paranoia about him.

Dolorous Edd, I will ask you again. What is your read on Minimum?

*sigh* I knew at some point I’m going to have to come face to face with this, but seriously in all honestly, I really don’t know. I just can’t seem to get a read on them. I mean, I don’t oppose a lynch on them, but at the same time I don’t really support one. I seem to be better at evaluating the events

surrounding

Min (who’s voting, who’s not, etc.), but I really can’t seem to grasp a read on them :/ I will try to ISO them (

again

) in a bit, to see if maybe I can come up with a read.

Pless already responded to this, but it's not just at game's start, it's based on activity level and contribution over the course of the days (and can't even really be broached until near deadline of the first day)

AND most importantly it applies when everyone is aware that it's multiball.

Umm, objection? I think it applies even better when only scum know it's multiball, no?

Wait, so what you are telling me is that you want to apply a theory of scum detection in a multiball game to

this game

before we actually know that it's multiball while at the same time thinking someone is scum for saying it's multiball? A theory, which as you've described and applied it, demonstrates that you don't have a really good understanding of the theory, how to apply it, or how it takes more far more work to determine who does or doesn't fit the profile?

Regardless, it can't be applied right now anyway, so this is unproductive.

I’m really not understanding why not. It’s a simple thing. Those who began strongly are more likely town than those who began weakly. For example, say you were scum (not to say you’re not ) and got a PM with 2 other partners, thus assuming in a 28p game that obv there are other scum teams, would you begin the game strongly that benmage? Or just try to fit in the crowd and/or lurk or something? Depending on your answer, it might be different, but for me, I would def pull a Jal, Sala, Plum, Mockingjay, or Hyper.

Also, yes, I THINK it’s multiball. Yes, I THINK there is a very high probability that it is. Thus, assuming and applying such a thing on it is not really a bad thing right now.

However, when someone in a big post just mentioned something like they know it’s multiball, without really saying they are assuming or something and it just comes out naturally, then yes, I do find it suspicious.

There is a huge difference between assuming and even thinking there is a high probability, to just mentioning it off handily like it was common fact when the topic wasn’t even multiball and it just happened to come in the conversation.

- A very weary Arthur who is just about to drop and is going to head to bed, and didn't even re-read this post or edit it :/

Crap, I still have MoI’s questions ._______.

Aww really, Well how bad was it effected? if just a little then you can blame my scummish nature, but if alot then maybe your scumdar is just broke?

Just ftr, sucking on Day1 is not a reason for you not being lynched.

Neither is having a meta of acting scummy.

So hydra or not … please explain why your slot is able to appeal to “their scummish nature” which implices a scummy meta but others can’t use that exact same reasoning in making reads.

Umm, not really sure. I really can’t speak for Alek, but for me, I really don’t take “I suck” or something along those lines as you’re not getting lynched. Sorry I can’t really expand on this. But me and Alek are really two different people <_<

- Okay, now I’m like seriously going to drop. Arthur sleep-mode, /ON

[Dolorous Edd]

So it’s much better right now to create pressure than really having to believe in your vote. I’m not saying just bandwagon or something, but you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point. At least, that’s the way I see it, because otherwise, scum can easily slip by.

Ok. Fair enough. Now, can you tell me how did you intend your vote on Hyperion to cause pressure if you did not state any reasons for it?

I really did not feel the need to add reasons. Simple enough. But for an explanation, I guess I can go into a boring explanation.

Sometimes I vote simply because I do not really have a read on that person. Just forcing a reason out of me will not really

help

. Sometimes I just need the person to sweat, have my vote on that person, because usually when I do, I tend to pay attention more to their actions, etc, so I know if my vote is good there or if it should be moved else where. But this can only obv work when there is already a fairly somewhat big wagon on that person. Obv the early voters on that wagon had a reason to be voting. These are the people, as I already mentioned previously, are the "passion" voters. They're the ones who are really voting because they have something. They are not voting to start a wagon or something because they are pulling stuff out of their ass or they are trying to add pressure or something. Usually, if somewhat later in time those people still have a vote there, then I tend to go back and look at what their original argument is again, and actually evaluate it more in depth. Then if it makes logical sense, and I more or less can see where they're coming from (note, this does not necessarily mean I

believe

in it, just that they are making a logical argument) then I look at if the actual person being wagoned has responded well, even to the little pressure. Initial reactions to early accusation, while sometimes hard to get a grasp on, because even scum can respond well to little pressure since they're no where near eating rope, can sometimes actually be clear. It really comes down to 3 options. i) The person responded logically to the accusations, and if he made sense. By making sense, I really apply Occam's razor, esp in early stages. That means if I can see where you're coming from, and it is more likely that you believe in what you are saying and that you are being honest and genuine, and your reply makes fair sense, then I usually leave that wagon be for now. If the "passion" voters still want to pursue that, then they can go ahead. ii) The person responded rather poorly, in which case I would just add my vote, though this scenerio is rather slim at this stage, since if he responded poorly more people would've jumped and prob I would've noticed it earlier, and iii) which is the category hyper fits in, is the one where the person doesn't really respond to the pressure and/or respond very vaguley and still needs more pressure. At this stage, me adding my votehelps to create neccesary pressure. However, I really can't

come up

with different reasons, nor do I really want to force reasons. The main point is to just add pressure so the person can respond to early accusations and/or so the person can be in closer range of rope so they know people mean serious.

As I said, he started the game out strongly, jumped right in, wasn’t really cautious, and really started scumhunting at an early stage. I think the majority if not all of scum would start the game on a cautious note especially in a game this large. You know, if you put yourself in a scum shoes, would you just really come out and start posting a lot and interact and stuff, or would you lean more towards the side of cautious?

Can you point at the posts that make you feel this way?

It just the way he starts it without really a cautious or fearful approch. For example, he jumps right into questioning in post 27. Also, for example his tone of post is more of "this is what we're going to do" rather than the "I think" etc. This shows he is not afraid to show his opinion and start out the game on a strong note. For example posts 17 and 35. You know, just by ISOing him you can feel the difference in his tone vs someone who is cautious or something.

That’s why upon reading Regfan’s post first, my mind clicked right away “town”. Upon assessing it, however, it really didn’t strike me as town as it did the first time around, and I realized that someone can easily begin the game like that and look strong while merely just writing a lot of words summarizing and putting tiers and stuff.

Ok, so something in Regfan's post is rubbing you off wrong. Can you give me some insight at what you think is iffy about Regfan's summary post in this game as compared as what he's done in other games? Or, can you just tell me what you find off in his summary?

I really don't know what you expect more. I feel like I just say something and then you just keep replying to it with "show example", "why", and stuff. I already game insight into why I find his summary posts scummy, and yes, it is mostly based on gut. And as I already stated before, I am not too familiar with regfan meta, so I really can't compare and contrast.

Umm, not really sure. I really can’t speak for Alek, but for me, I really don’t take “I suck” or something along those lines as you’re not getting lynched. Sorry I can’t really expand on this. But me and Alek are really two different people <_<

This isn't addressed to us, but touches on a point that has been bugging Pless. You seem to assume that players should discern which Hydra head has said what? Not everyone here is familiar with either of you, and

Plessiez can't distinguish you for his life

some of us aren't that good at noticing posting quirks in people (unless you of course are Mina and CES, in which the difference in

the gargantuan verbosity of Mina is obvious

posting style is rather evident, --well unless Mina takes vow of silence, which she could but it then would be boring and we'd be yelling at her for it?--). I would appreciate if from now on you would make clear which head is saying what, and, for the sake of everyone's sanity, at least

try

to start acting like a single slot. Also,

this is why Hydras should sign their posts

.

~Zar.

Umm, I'll try? But it pretty obv to tell us apart, esp since Alek

does

sign his posts. He kind of makes clumps of posts and then signs them, so I don't see why it's too hard...

~ Arthur. Or is it

Umm, well this is awkward. Esp ruins my joke at the end

~Post on Ser Arthur Dayne account deleted

[Dolorous Edd]

No one is doing that

, thus my confusion as to why he's playing the pity card when no one is pushing him on policy (

though yes, he deserves it

).

Minimum has basically made it know I'm a completely acceptable Policy lynch

There are a lot of inconsistencies here. At least from my POV right now.

Also, still re-reading stuff. Dolorous is def town though, she is legitimately scum-hunting.

Umm, 2 things here.

1) That is a post

by

MoI interpreting what another person might've said. That doesn't actually mean that person means that (not that I'm saying they don't, but you can't just quote something by someone and take their word for it.)

2) I'm a dude. Both me (Arthur, which is a dude's name...) and Alek (which is also a dude's name...) are guys (not to consider Dolorous Edd is a dude... I thought you said you're familiar with the books? )

[Dolorous Edd]

Jal is totally scum. Seriously. No jokes. Go ISO him in Newbie 1237 and go look at this. In 1237 he was so town it hurt by like mid-day1. His overall tone and everything feels so off this time.

Plus his Snowstorm vote is crap. In the same post where he votes, he simply says that he is getting "slight scum vibes" from Snowstorm and he doesn't think his posts are "completely" genuine. This kind of ambiguous statments feel forced as hell and he looks like he is trying to justify bandwagoning Snow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jal

[Dolorous Edd]

Didn't you spend ages in Post 664 and Post 701 attempting to explain why you thought it was fine to vote for somebody you didn't have a strong-scum read on? Or was it a different hydra-head who told us that "you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point"? Why did you not react to Jal's "crap" vote when it was cast? You've made plenty of posts since then.

Other than Snow recently voting for Jal

, what's changed to make you reconsider it?

Umm, are you planning to aggrivate me on purpose? But I'll play your little game.

Pless

asks

for why Arthur votes Hyper (nevermind like 2 days after).
Arthur answers him.
Unfortunately, Arthur is a very non-static person.
So while PlessZar is on the satellite delay, Arthur has already moved past that, and has found a better place to move his vote, esp considering he doesn't think THAT VOTE IS DOING MUCH THERE ANYMORE.

If you're going to jump on every little move and need ever little idea that forms in my head, then I'm sorry, but this is becoming both mentally exhausting and ditracting.

What do you think about Snow, by the way? Is he still null? For that matter, did you ever explain

why

SnowStorm was null? You failed to answer the question in Post 470 ... did you ever come back to it?

You want me to explain...

why

he's null?!?!

Yea. Okay.

I'll get to Mockingjaye's post later. Maybe.

[Dolorous Edd]

I have a town read on him, whoever we pick dies yes but the way I see it, giving scum a second shot won't help us. I'd rather send a townie and ask them to shoot who we think is scum. We are gonna lose a townie either way, however picking the townie ourselves is still better than letting scum do it.

How is that any different then say, picking someone who we think is scum?

I mean if we pick a townie and they are just going to pick someone we choose, then why don;t we choose that person to begin with?

Honestly, It makes more sense to pick somone we believe could be scum on the off chance they will

1) If they are scum win for us

2) If they are not scum, then:
a)We get rid of a scummy player
b)We still have a small chance they will hit scum.

By picking someone we believe is VT, all we are doing is taking away a town read? HOW DOES THAT HELP TOWN?

Please someone actually think about this? Scum would want us to choose someone we believe is town so that they can keep the suspecious people around..

So how about we actually treat this as a second lynch, for which it really is is just a secondary lynch..

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MoI

Seriously? Now all of a sudden you want to say SS has been posting crap? Why havn;t you mentioned him before now?

Oh and your fake rage about the Mina/Ces wagon falling off made me laugh..

Now you are going to try and lurk the rest of the time away...good

Maybe it would be easier to get you lynched then as I find you vote on Snowstorm scummy as hell and your whole attitude anti-town.

You havn't had anything to say about SS, until now when the suspicion on him got turned up? WHy is that? Why didn't you point out his crap before hand?

I mean you had plenty of time to point out and comment on other people, and obviously you have been paying attention to SS before this, but you never commented on it, Why?

-Alek(this post and the one before it)

[Dolorous Edd]

@ Mockingjaye

Your Whole case on Us is just one sided? Why is it that everything you pulled came from just one person(Arthur)? Did you take my posts also into context?

You should as that way you get a complete read on us, and not the half-assed one you posted..

Choose:Mockingjaye

I feel your case was lazy scum just picking are one or two things and trying to say that the person is scummy without reading everything..

[Dolorous Edd]

Also

@Mockingjaye

WHy are you choosing your main scum read instead of voting him? Also, why are you not voting another scum read?

I mean you are not even voting at all? Seriously why?

-Alek again(as if you didn't know)

[Dolorous Edd]

Kind of baffled by this reaction, to be honest . We're not trying to aggravate you for the sake of it at all -- we're asking you questions about your votes and your reads because, apparently unlike several other people, we're not convinced that you're town yet and want to get a better handle on what you're saying.

We're not trying to focus unduly on you or single you out in any way -- you're not even one of top scum reads (in fact, if forced to choose at gunpoint we'd probably guess you were town). But you have more posts than most people playing, so (inevitably, I think) we probably find more questions to ask you than we do, say, redFF. If we're really upsetting you for some reason, then we can only apologise: this isn't a deliberate strategy on our part, and it's not how we want to play the game. (Though, really, we're not quite sure why

being asked to explain your opinions of other players

in a game of mafia should prompt this sort of anguished response .)

For the record, I first asked you to explain your Hyperion vote the same day you cast it (I'm pretty sure I asked as soon as I'd read it, in fact, though Zar may have posted a couple of times before that). You might have taken days to answer, but that's hardly a result of

us

failing to keep up.

But more importantly, you seem to have (unintentionally?) completely missed the point of Post 807. I wasn't saying "why did you move your vote off Hyperion?", which is the question you seem to be answering. I was saying "if Jal's vote for SnowStorm looks so bad, why did you not comment on it at the time?".

... honestly, if it's only going to irritate you to answer this, feel free to not bother. Seems pretty obvious you're not getting Chosen or lynched today, and we have better suspects to push and question before deadline. Happy enough to listen to Regfan and leave you alone for now (at least for the Day).

~ Pless

I'm sorry I was in a bad mood and having a bad morning :/ I really apologize for the burst.

Anyways, of course I'll answer your question If I go off on anyone/anything (again), just know that it was was prob 99% because of something that happened IRL or something, so nothing personal or game-related at all.

"if Jal's vote for SnowStorm looks so bad, why did you not comment on it at the time?"

- Actually, tbh, I didn't really notice it. I sometimes read what is going on, but not really

analyze

it. Then every once in a while, I go back to the player list and look over everyone. If I don't have a read on you, or even a very vague read that I can barely remember anything about, then I ISO you. So Jal was in that vague pile (leaning town actually, but this was only because of what people said). But when I looked at the list, he seemed to be flying under the radar (at least, mine), and that is usually a bad signn for me. I also saw that Snowsotrm had just interacted with him, so I went and ISOed him, and I hated

HATED

his Snow vote. It just seemed

so

poorly justified and opportunistic.

Also, what I really caught about Jal that also gave me scum vibes is what I like to call

post-justification

. It's when someone votes for someone else, and

then

they start trying to justify that vote, instead of already having a justification when voting.

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:

UNCHOOSE:

VOTE: Mockingjaye

CHOOSE: Feysal

[Dolorous Edd]

@ Mockingjaye

Your Whole case on Us is just one sided? Why is it that everything you pulled came from just one person(Arthur)? Did you take my posts also into context?

You should as that way you get a complete read on us, and not the half-assed one you posted..

Choose:Mockingjaye

I feel your case was lazy scum just picking are one or two things and trying to say that the person is scummy without reading everything..

You do realize you're a hydra right? That means you are read as a whole. No one is going to go through and double check to make sure they read equal parts arthur to equal parts alek, especially ones who don't know how to decipher you (yes, I know you sign your posts but still). I actually find it pretty funny that you're upset your posts were picked apart, especially considering that your posts are far and away scummier than what arthur has posted. If you wanted to make sure you got lots of special attention you maybe should have signed up as yourself instead of as a head of a hydra.

Okay..is that not the point? Why just pick out those things from Arthur that everyone else has already commented on? Don't find it odd that not one of my "scummy" posts was commented on? I mean really? I don't think they really read the Hydra but picked out a few things others have already commented on and is trying to make a crappy case... and THEY DIDN'T VOTE AT ALLL

[Dolorous Edd]

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER

2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
14) Regfan
18) Benmage
22) Pandora (Hydra)
25) BBmolla

LEANING TOWN

5) Staeg
9) MagnaofIllusion
redFF11) DCLXVI
12) hasdgfas
22) Pandora (Hydra)
24) Starbuck
26) SnowStorm
28) StefanB

NULL

1) Minimum (Mina/CES)
Petyr Baelish7) kortul
10) Plum's Yo Mamma
13) Shadow1psc
pappums rat15) Amrun
sword of omens16) greenknight
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin

LEANING SCUM

Hyperion8) Shinori
23) Salamence20

IS SCUM

3) Mockingjaye
21) Feysal
27) Jal

[Dolorous Edd]

I like this reaction though. It feels genuine.

I

am

town, after all.

~Arthur. I'm not sure about Alek though. He might be scum .

[Dolorous Edd]

Ftr, 880 and 885 are me (Arthur) and 883 is Alek. I can understand how this can get confusing, esp when we are posting at the same time.

(And sorry for the fluff )

((And don't think I missed your question Zar! I promise I'll get to it tomorrow ))

[Dolorous Edd]

But you didn't say that. You said that your posts were not specifically commented on. If you were meaning what you said now, which makes a lot more sense, btw given your reaction, you should have said that to begin with. I don't find anything odd in them not voting considering that they said they had a few people they were trying to decide between before they placed their vote. Some people are cautious voters.

I like this reaction though. It feels genuine.

But they used the Red Choose? I mean I could understand not doing both, but one or the other? Come one? I am sry but it just feels way off too me...

Also: Not I am gonna actually sit back and Confirm my reads with Arthur as We are having some conflict issues on who we think are town and who we think are scum...

Right Now I agree with him on Mockingjaye and Fenysel so I am okay with those votes

-Alek

[Dolorous Edd]

Really don't like DCL's replace in at all. It's actually terrible, he jumps into a discussion he has little context about

and then proceeds to state reads on a very minimal percentage of the playerlist not mentioning or commenting on a lot of the bigger things going on. Not just that but his Jal vote and scum read is "Sheeping Edd" rather than saying why he thinks the slot is scum at all. Comes across as him not even really reading the thread and latching onto a few things.

Oh, I wanted to touch on this yesterday, but somehow it escaped me.

I think that actually makes DCL/his slot

more

town. I don't think scum would jump in right away with little context and everything. They would be more cautious, they would take time to reread and actually form a full list of reads to look like they are contributing and being active, while what DCL did reads more as a lazy townie who is eager to get in the game.

Sure we do?

You and SnowStorm have a similar sign-in date to Soph's board, and have been in basically every game played there since (looking back at the records, SS's first game was 82.75, and yours was 83). Given the many games you've played together, something in his play must be striking you as off to warrant a null? Right? What is it? (Here's an altless one for the curious). How are SS's reactions even remotely similar to what he normally plays like?

~Zar.

See post 885. I re-read him, and he is leaning town now. I think a lot of people were just ganging up on him pointlessly, and I know that can get overwhelming, esp when you just see a bunch of people jumping on you and not really understanding the reasoning. He does actually read like genuine SnowStorm, and the little tone difference is accountable for playing on a different site, etc.

(If I may point out something though, I do think his explanation for why he doesn't want to re-read past games and all that talk about meta seems like overjustification, so I'm torn :/ But he reads genuine in the rest.)

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay, trying to sort out my null pile.

Spoiler:

NULL
1) Minimum (Mina/CES)
Petyr Baelish7) kortul
10) Plum's Yo Mamma
13) Shadow1psc
pappums rat15) Amrun
sword of omens16) greenknight
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin

Starting with Bvogit.

Why do you want Starbuck to nameclaim? Until she's in danger of being lynched, it's antitown. If she was at L-1, we'd want to hear her name and flavor, but until then, all it does is give more information to the scum.

I knew I caught a bad vibe from this the first time I read it. How would it give more information to the scum again? You seem to be missing the why, and is just throwing out vague statements that may seem like town by saying “the boogieman will get more info.”

But, do you not think that scum already have fake name-claims? Actually, if you are scum, you would know that, and saying this to try and make yourself look town.

For the moment, though, she's nowhere near being chosen. I just don't see how we can use her nameclaim to help us. Stefan, I don't think it's more dangerous, but it's still additional information for the scum.

VOTE: Salamence

Choose: Feysal

Sal is my top suspect right now; I will post a case on him soon.

Feysal I'm less confident about, but he's the best option out of the people who currently have Choose votes.

But he just

happened

to be the highest wagon? Bandwagoningmuch?

So, here's why I think Sala is scum:

Spoiler:

His first three posts are all useless. He said he was catching up in another thread, and I'm sure that's true. But why bother making those posts at all? They add nothing new to the game. It looks like scum trying to appear helpful and avoid accusations of lurking.

Despite its length, his catchup post really doesn't have a lot of scumhunting IMO. Again, it seems like he's trying to appear helpful, rather than actively looking for the scum as a townie would.

Furthermore, I just noticed that he voted Minimum in his very first post, and has kept that vote there for the entire game, with no explanation AFAIK. @Sala: Why do you think Minimum is scum?

His other 3 scum reads, according to #433, are Shadow, SnowStorm, and Hyperion. So all 4 of his scum reads are popular wagons, and 3 of the 4 are arguably easy mislynches. Overall, it looks like these reads are mainly "following the crowd" without adding any of his own reasoning.

This is what I said I hate earlier.

Trying to justify a vote

after

you voted. It scummy as hell, and it looks like you are trying to contrive reasoning to make your vote look better.

Conclusion:

- Bvoigt leaning scum.

[Dolorous Edd]

Read Snowstorm's ISO. Count actual scum-hunting posts or posts with opinions on who is scum. Vote.

That doesn't actually mean he's scum though. It can pretty much mean he's overwhelmed, or is trying to figure things out and stuff.

And the fact that there is no better VOET wagon near the SS one is pretty depressing :/

[Dolorous Edd]

It can also mean he's scum. I'm not relying on your Westros meta at all. And no, he's not trying to figure things out. You accomplish that by asking questions / pointing out behavior that is suspect. All he's doing is basically prod-dodging and responding to votes with "I disagree".

How is his play much different, than say Bvoigt, or Mockingjaye, or Shadow, or even Starbuck or something? Just because they might put an effort here and there to look like they are contributing? And how is this different than SS? At least SS seems genuine. Your reasoning can be extended to a number of players in this game, and it's not great reasoning for catching scum in any game in the first place.

[Dolorous Edd]

*sigh*

But Snow is town!

Or at least

a lot

more town than people like Mockingjaye, Jal, or Bvoigt.

In other news I'll be re-looking at my null pile to see if I can sort it out. So far my reads are (with Aleks in parentheses):

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Lyanna Stark, Tyene Sand, Regfan, Benmage, Pandora, BBmolla

LEANING TOWN:

Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

(Alek - scum)

, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Starbuck, SnowStorm, StefanB

NULL:

Minimum

(Alek - town)

, kortul, Plum's Yo Mamma, Shadow1psc

(Alek - slight scum)

, Amrun, greenknight, Bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin

LEANING SCUM:

Shinori

(Alek - leaning town)

, Salamence20

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal

[Dolorous Edd]

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Lyanna Stark, Tyene Sand, Regfan, Benmage, Pandora, BBmolla

LEANING TOWN:

Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

(Alek - scum)

, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Starbuck, SnowStorm, StefanB

NULL:

Minimum

(Alek - town)

, kortul, Plum's Yo Mamma, Shadow1psc

(Alek - slight scum)

, Amrun, greenknight, Bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin

LEANING SCUM:

Shinori

(Alek - leaning town)

, Salamence20

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal

Oops, this is wrong. Move bvoigt to the leaning scum pile. That was the whole point of this exercise, otherwise they're the same reads I posted yesterday <_<

And *sigh*. It looks like Sala is the nearest one within that I closely agree on Though Mocking/Jal/bvogit are still scummier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Salamence

Also, for reference, Kingdom Hearts just ended, and Sala derped pretty hard in that game too, and he ended up being town.

[Dolorous Edd]

Fun fact: Mockingjaye dedicated a whole post to make a case against me (post 811), yet ended up not voting at all and simply choosing Shadow. Not to mention that fact that she can't say she has her vote somewhere she thinks is better, because SHE ISN'T VOTING.

I love how the whole post is just assembled. It's centered around a case on me, but then out of the blue choosing shadow. With no vote.

You wanna know her whole "case" on shadow, who is presumably her strongest scum read? A whopping total of TWO FULL LENGTHY POSTS. I AM EVEN GOING TO SPOILER THEM FROM THE LENGTH (please don't skip the spoiler, it will literally take two seconds to get through):

Spoiler:

Fourth:

Shadow: His snarky play reminds me very much of the last game, when he was scum. In fact, the first thing I said about him in AFFC was

Shadow's hyper-defensiveness and his seething anger for anyone who questions or attacks him is more of a problem for me....

and I’m feeling the same vibe this time. I also completely disagree that it’s too early in the game to do effective scumhunting, and I don’t like that he’s falling back on being snide without furthering the discussion and trying to find scum, which is similar to what he did in AFFC; at one point on D1, when pressed for specific reads, basically said everyone was null, everyone was scum, and a few posts later, as an afterthought, he was town.

To be fair, the one overt difference in his play then and his play now is that in AFFC, he pretty much hounded Empking constantly during D1 and was more belligerent and antagonistic towards anyone who confronted him, which is how he started off in this game, though now he has backed off that somewhat. That's not quite enough for me given his history, though; I don't trust that he hasn't just learned from the past and/or that someone might be telling him to tone it down.

Also Shadow, it’s kind of funny that you include AFFC in your list of past games where you tried to be helpful (Post 473 because you were super-scum there. Too bad the tigers ate most of that game because then the newer people could go check it out to get a good helping of Scum-Shadow (and MoI too, for that matter).

Shadow:

/twitch

[Dolorous Edd]

Oh crap, there is actually a decent wagon on bvoigt.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bvoigt

Much much much more comfortable pushing this counter wagon.

bvoigt

/

Feysal

it is for me.

[Dolorous Edd]

No

4 votes is

not

a counter wagon.

We don't need a 60 page d1. HEAD OUT OFF ASS... lets end today.

Totally. You should also jump on. 5 > 4.

[Dolorous Edd]

Give final reads. If you are lynch now, or on pg 60... whats better for the town? (hint to be lynched now)

(Hint: A town person giving up is never

ever

a good idea. Snow if you're town, please don't give up. And benmage, I think you're overexaggerating.)

[Dolorous Edd]

Ahahah. Told you Snow was town. Now we just wasted a claim

Also, can the choice please be Feysal? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?*

*And I think the Choose has to be locked in before the lynch, or am I wrong? If a lynch happens before a choice, does it automatically go to the highest choice wagon?

[Dolorous Edd]

Null pile re-reads incoming. I wanna squeeze these in before end day, and since I will be V/LA from late Fri till Wed for Labor day weekend, I need to try to sort out my reads.

For not, I re-read kortul, and I wanna put him in the leaning town pile, but I'm just not too convinced. He does seem though like he is trying and doing his best to figure out the game, I'm just unsure yet. Will keep him in the null pile for now, but he's slightly leaning town in my mind. Though I caught this:

If anyone interested, right now my town reads are (S->W) Lyanna Stark, Regfan, Plessiezarus, MoI, Tyene Sand, Staeg, Plums Yo Mamma, Feysal, and hesitating on Minimum and Dolorus Edd. I know, that there are some cross suspicions among them, but that doesn't mean they can't be

town

together.

I'm guessing you obv mean scum here, not town?

Also, can you please explain your strong town read on Feysal please?

[Dolorous Edd]

Plum's Yo Mamma

start was actually pretty ruff and I can actually see it as somewhat scummy, but the latter half of their posts seems much much better. Leaning town for now.

Shadow1psc

- Wow. I didn't actually realize the amount of fluff in there. He has basically either fluffed his way through the game, or nitpciking here and there. Leaning scum.

Mos

- I really don't like some of his posts. His posts about not paying attention to the game, like voting Pandora for being a hydra alt, etc, seem really forced, and it just seems like he is trying to replicate his town play (granted, I've only seen him play town a few times). Post 578 is

very

late, and it just seems like he was stuck back in the dust while everyone moved forward. Leaning scum.

pappums rat/Amrun

- Leaning town, mostly based on gut, but there is some elements of the posts that strike me as coming from town-minded rather than scum.

greenknight

- Leaning scum. I don't really like some of the tone in his posts, and his pushing on people feels awkward and forced. And his defense to anything seems to lash back at them.

Yay! We're left with Minimum. Which I won't be doing yet :p

Soooo:

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN (S->W):

SnowStorm, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, Starbuck, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun

NULL:

Minimum, kortul

LEANING SCUM (S->W):

greenknight, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, Salamence20, Shinori

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

Notes:
Shinori is actually slipping as a leaning scum, and moving up a bit. So is Sala in a sense. They both actually belong in that virtual tier between null and leaning scum.
It would be stupid to arrange the first, third, and last tier from S->W. The second and fourth tier is to just give an idea of who is most likely to move up/down where

[Dolorous Edd]

Ahahah. Told you Snow was town. Now we just wasted a claim

You do know who is in best position to make Town calls on non-scumhunting derps, right? That being said – why are you so certain it isn’t a fake-claim without any independant confirmation? Because scum have never claimed Masons before, right?

No, because I already

had a town read on him

.

The flavor name of the partner is evident for people who have read the series, so don't fret over it at this stage.

Oh, oh, oh! Can I say it? :p

[Dolorous Edd]

Meta is a big part of it. I've played with him and

looked over the Kingdom Hearts game and he really did look town in both those games.

Though he almost got lynched in Kingdom Hearts too at some point for basically the same things here, and this is looking a lot like that other wagon forming on him. So I'm very hesitant to call him scum.

[Dolorous Edd]

^This rings genuine.

I just spent way too long of a game in the opposite situation (me scum, sala town). This doesn't ring the same, in multiple ways. Sala don't give a fuck, about anything seemingly, and is like the hyperactive puppy that no one likes. He's trying too hard to be appeasing in this game, and posting nearly enough (but I don't know if that has to do with the amount of games he's supposedly in).

C'mon, that is much

much

more likely to come from the fact he's in 10 different games with like 5 large (I'm not exaggerating, see his sig, which i quote here):

Spoiler:

NY 154: Return to Boring Town (Night 4)
Phineas and Ferb Mafia (Day 3)
My Little Pony: Friendship is Redemption (D3, Dead, Town Cop)
Micro 11 (D2, Dead, VT)
Micro 18 (D2, Dead, VT)
90s TV Mafia (Night 4)
Dances With Dragons (Day 1)
Open 445 (Day 1)
Futurama Mafia (Pre-Game)
Revolutionary War Mafia (Day 1)

And he just finished another large theme (KH).

[Dolorous Edd]

Fuckit

Unvote Vote JAL

ALL ABOARD

Where were you when I was voting Jal a bit ago But the bvigot wagon feels much more likely in sight of actually reaching a lynch. What happened to "fuckit let's just get this day over with"?

[Dolorous Edd]

Vote: Stefan

Stefan is town bro. And you're basically throwing your vote away.

Kortual wagon is bad. It's distracting from the main targets.

Bvogit

/

Feysal

please.

Though I would actually also be content with greenknight for any position, and I don't particularly mind a Shadow and to a lesser extent Sala.

Also, a note, Sala was prodded, though he posted on other parts of the website after he received his prod here.

[Dolorous Edd]

@MOD:

(Arthur) V/LA till Wed. Labor Day weekend.

As I already said,

Bvoigt/

Feysal

are my number one choices, followed by greenknight (for any position, idc), then followed by Shadow, and then followed by Sala.

(Also, if someone is chosen, and they're town, please don't take it to your head to do something bizarre [hint: like shooting Starbuck])

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, I want your scum-read on Feysal and town-read on Stefan explained asap please.

I don’t really have the time to explain it right now (still on V/LA till Wed). But a lot of Stefan’s play strikes me as genuine and trying to scumhunt, and Feysal’s play as a whole seems forced and trying to throw a nonchalant attitude out there, but really feeling awkward and unnatural.

I'd prefer Shadow over either of these 2.

Shadow is a vig bait though. Anyone with a mind would know to shoot him tonight (*hint hint*, like if you’re a townie who gets chosen today)

[Dolorous Edd]

Is 72 hours enough time to wagon Shadow?

Also, there are 4 days left, not 3.

[Dolorous Edd]

Please elaborte (or actually, keep it till day 2 if you want) why BB is town by page 17. Also, Lyanna becomes obv town, and Stefan is town as I mentioned a bit ago. And I become obv town somewhere (?), but that doesn't look coming from me, etc.

Where’s Tierce when you need her. She’s easily deceived.

But on a more serious note, you should prob ISO the top wagons on the vote and choose, to see where you should best place your vote, instead of painfully treading through the thread now.

Pedit: Obv intended at Sapo.

[Dolorous Edd]

I would also love to kill Delirious Edd for having the gall to both want me dead and telling me not to kill my strongest suspect, but unfortunately scum takes precedence.

There is not "I" in "team" though? Yea I want you dead, because I think you're scummy. But if you are town, you don't have to throw away the game (and logically too, not just good sportsmanship, since you still win with the town).

I mean, I don't really mind you shooting Starbuck, she’s not that useful, etc, but I think she’s pretty obv town? Where as someone like Shadow is the same uselessness, but has a chance to hit scum...

Also, on a different note, I checked out Sala, and he seemed to replace out of a lot of his games (jumping down from something like 7 games to 2 games), so it’s really a null tell. Maybe he took my advice

[Dolorous Edd]

If StefanB was really thinking critically about

DB

as scum,

Dragon Ball?

But you do make me want to re-check my Stefan read. I'll have a re-look. Prob tomorrow (game-time), since it's so close to deadline and I really don't think we can start another wagon like that.

[Dolorous Edd]

Sala over either of them.

How could you even say this at this stage? No matter how bad the bvoigt wagon is (or how bad you may think it is), the Sala wagon scares the shit out of me at this point.

On a different note,

UNCHOOSE:

CHOOSE: greenknight

I still think Feysal is scum, but etc...

[Dolorous Edd]

For fucks sake, what the fuck is it up with us targetting masons, unless anyone who is about to get lynched claims mason (or this is some grand master plan by Snow and greenknight)

UNCHOOSE:

CHOOSE: Feysal

[Dolorous Edd]

Read post 895. Stay away from the DCL wagon.

^ That, plus redff didn't read as scum at all.

I REALLLY wish DE's heads would sign their posts. Do both heads think Feysal is scum for pointing out that scum vigs can kill other-scum?

Sí señor.

You seem to be one of the few people, if not the only person, to suspect Starbuck. What makes shooting her a better idea than shooting someone who you have a weaker scumread on, but also is more of a consensus choice as scum?

He's only saying this so people can stay away from his wagon.

But it doesn't really matter, since he's scum, etc.

Also, how do you feel about being lynched? Since you know, there is no wagon near yours, and there is a very very high percent that there won’t be in the next 2-3 days.

Ignoring suspicion won't just magically make it go away.

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadow

But we're getting Feysal. I'm not getting cheated out of both <_<

Though as long as they’re in my Leaning scum, or better yet, is scum pile, I will be content:

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN (S->W):

SnowStorm, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, Starbuck, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, greenknight

NULL:

Minimum, kortul, Salamence20, Shinori

LEANING SCUM (S->W):

greenknight

, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc,

Salamence20

,

Shinori

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

(Might as well update my reads as well. Shinori [is he still in the game, or did he get replaced? Dammit, I really can’t keep track of these replacements] and Sala/whoever replaced are up to null, because I don’t necessarily think they’re scum anymore, yet I don’t think they’re town either. Need to reevaluate at some point. Also, greenknight obv jumps up to leaning town. Not the obv town pile, since him and snow can be lying, but that will sort itself out in time, etc)

@Kortul

- I've been meaning to ask you this. Why did you switch your vote from bviogt to Shadow? You said you prefer the latter to the former. Why?

[Dolorous Edd]

I'd also encourage everyone to unify their Votes and Chooses, definitely from D2 if not tonight

Chooses is only for today though?

[Dolorous Edd]

You're still on Mini <_<.

And I hate you all for changing my reads

UNCHOOSE:

CHOOSE: DCL

Ohai.

~Post on SAD deleted

[Dolorous Edd]

Fucking hell. I fucking hate this .

I already had DCL as town before. WHY MUST THIS CRAP BE SO DIFFICULT! /facepalm

Pedit: WHAT THE FUCK SHADOW?!?

I’m going to take a walk.

PS: Benmage, it's called FAKE ROLE CLAIMS. Did you think that maybe DCL was given that fake-claim? And even if he wasn't and was simply given a fake-name, I as scum would always claim vt to achieve the same exact result that you think DCL's did.

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm Ramsay Bolton, torturer. I can target one person each night, and upon a successful action, not only are they roleblocked, but they're rolecopped for any active abilities. Only works if they have active abilities, so if I were to target myself, I'd be told that I was a 'Torturer'.

This reads as fake.

Shadow, what's your little underlined role flavor thing? Ex:

(A)

GODHAND:

You may choke people to death whenever you want.

(A)

And if 7 virgins should accidentally drown...

Once during the game you may pick 7 players to kill at once. Just because.

[Dolorous Edd]

Threats to shoot Regfan or whoever else won't be the thing to move me.

QFT.

Seriously, I am def not in the mood to run up another player for them to claim. If you've had a bad play, unless you claim something that can be fucking proven or something that is worthy to keep around, then to the noose you go.

I would honestly like to switch my choose back to Feysal. But if he's town, then we are getting another townie to claim. I'm not in the mood to have half of the player list claim on Day1.

DCL, if you're town, please use your brain. Don't shoot someone over some little paranoia or some other crap. And don't shoot someone we can't afford to lose if they're town. Chances are, scum will be easy to catch in the end mostly because of POE.

I do buy Shadow1psc's claim, and an investigative role goes well with his Give No Fucks attitude because he knows he can figure things out at night.

Umm, not really? He can figure out someones role? And roleblock them? And he become the Oracle of Delphi?

Though actually, Shadow's role will sort itself out in time, even if he's lying. And as opposed to my initial thought upon reading it, my gut is telling me it's town right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bvoigt
I'm bad at this ._.

~I'm good at this

[Dolorous Edd]

Re-arranging reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN:

SnowStorm, greenknight, Starbuck, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, Shadow1psc, kortul

NULL:

Minimum, Salamence20, Shinori, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

LEANING SCUM:

Mastermind of Sin

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

I need to re-look at Cow/whoever replaced him, Staeg, and MoI.

Seriously, one thing that has been bothering me about MoI is the fact that he is throwing suspicion towards Mini without actually doing much to try and convince people. Like, every once in a while he would drop by and say something like “Everyone should vote Mini”, “This thread needs more Mini votes”, etc, without actually looking like he is believing in what he is saying. It just feels artificial.

[Dolorous Edd]

Die in a fire. You seriously need to either actually read the game or shut the fuck up.

I made my case and pushed hard on Miniscum early on. I'm not going to waste my time railing for a lynch when we have a combination of stupid, lazy, and self-interested working against it.

Here's my question - who have you pushed in a non-artificial way? I've seen tons of "Oh, player Z is Town" crap out of you but absolutely no actual credible pushes on anyone.

Yea. This is the problem.

You made a case. No one really listened. But it seems like you kept there while everyone moved ahead.

You didn't really try to make anyone listen anymore, nor did you move on yourself.

It's like "Let me camp here and look like I still believe in what I'm doing".

"Oh, and to make it look like I'm trying, let me pop in here once in a while and say that people should be voting Mini."

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: StefanB

but this is such a sad lynch, I don't even have a decent read on him one way or another.

QFT.

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bvoigt

I'm not posting for the rest of the day (game-time) for the benefit of my health.

(Also, on a different note, Alek /outted from the hydra, so it’s only me in DEdd right now, unless I find another poor soul to torture, and Faraday is cool with it.)

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm Roose Bolton, Odd Night Vigilante. Flavor says I'm the killer of Robb Stark and Warden of the North, but I still have a lot of things I need to accomplish. I'm looking for immediate glory for House Bolton. The ability name is I'm gonna leech your face.

Hi. This is a fake-claim. Please don't derp it up and believe him. Trust me.

Die in fire.

[Dolorous Edd]

Fuck. No freaking time to lynch Bvoigt. Which is rather depressing.

@Pless

- Yea, I wasn't going to be here. Then I skimmed that we were thinking about

no lynching

. Anyways, for your questions, yea forgot about you because I just kept copying and pasting and rearranging my reads. Sorry about that. You're somewhere between null and leaning scum (kind of where Shinori/Sala is).

@StefanB

-

"Can you do a bit more to point it out?"

Umm, no? But I am 99% sure he's lying.

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm about to go to sleep, but: DEdd, if bvoigt flips town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Of course not?

But it's much better than anything you have left to work with today, isn't it?

[Dolorous Edd]

I was under the assumption that you had role info, because lynching a TWICE-CONFIRMABLE role is, uh, retarded?

Who said I don't? But trying to out guess the mod is, uh, retarded?

You can of course

infer

, but you can only be so much sure.

[Dolorous Edd]

VOTE: Bvoigt

I re-look at DCL. But from the top of my head, he through some BS (?) towards Regfan at the end? Not sure if that was just scum trying to throw random things out or he pushed on his partner at the end to make it look so.

For now though, unless I find something more concrete, Bvoigt needs death.

[Dolorous Edd]

What did I freaking say No one listened to me

Now, let's see who pushed that shitty Stefan lynch at the end instead of the Bvoigt lynch.

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm not sure I like Benmage's idea to use the jailkeep as a doc ability...seems like a good way to render a PR useless for the night.

We had this discussion in The Murder on the HMS Regalia, when we had a public jailing, like this one except it was on thread instead of PMs. And there was supporters on both sides (to use it to protect or to use it on a scummy person), so it's not really alignment indicative.

I still don't think I really know what to do with it though <_<

[Dolorous Edd]

Maybe we make like a top 3 townie list... and vote amongst them... so scum really can't kill any of the three.. Me likes this.

I think you went inside my mind ._. I was thinking that same

exact

thing. Keep them on their toes, so they either have to take the risk and maybe hit a protect, they can also take the risk and cross-kill with another mafia team, or they can shoot someone that is less town. Works for me.

[Dolorous Edd]

I find it curious that, for all practical effects, we only had a kill. DCLXVI's 'faction', whatever that means, knew who he was going to kill, obviously.

How? Maybe DCL wasn't allowed any more communications with his scumteam?

[Dolorous Edd]

Yeah, a bv scum flip doesn't look good for Staeg. The first post looks like distancing and the second looks like gunning for town cred off a Bv scum flip, but he unvotes bv in his next post.

Yea, I also caught that, but in a somewhat different form. Yesterday:

Spoiler:

Odd/Even vigs are probably as common as normal vigs. I don't think that's what DEdd's talking about, though.

So, anyway - I don't think DE is holycraptown. So, unless he actually says something useful, I'm not moving.
(no, that's not rolefishing - that's me diving headfirst into the rolelake with spear in hand)

I'm about to go to sleep, but: DEdd, if bvoigt flips town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Of course not?

But it's much better than anything you have left to work with today, isn't it?

I was under the assumption that you had role info, because lynching a TWICE-CONFIRMABLE role is, uh, retarded?

Also I'm with tierce.

If you had role info, you'd be 100% sure. And what was that about outguessing the mod?


Off to sleeeep

This interaction looks horrible, and he just looks like he is trying to avoid voting Bvoigt. However, if he really believed in what he was saying he wouldn't have changed his mind so quickly:

Yeah alright, explanations needed after what happened there

vote: bvoigt

The back and forth and the weirdness in Staeg's read on Bv really looks bad for him.

Kinda feeling badsy about regfan, though

[Dolorous Edd]

Crap, the original post was also quote messed up.

Sorry Faraday, please delete the above two posts

Here is how the post should look :p

Yeah, a bv scum flip doesn't look good for Staeg. The first post looks like distancing and the second looks like gunning for town cred off a Bv scum flip, but he unvotes bv in his next post.

Yea, I also caught that, but in a somewhat different form. Yesterday:

Spoiler:

Odd/Even vigs are probably as common as normal vigs. I don't think that's what DEdd's talking about, though.

So, anyway - I don't think DE is holycraptown. So, unless he actually says something useful, I'm not moving.
(no, that's not rolefishing - that's me diving headfirst into the rolelake with spear in hand)

I'm about to go to sleep, but: DEdd, if bvoigt flips town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Of course not?

But it's much better than anything you have left to work with today, isn't it?

I was under the assumption that you had role info, because lynching a TWICE-CONFIRMABLE role is, uh, retarded?

Also I'm with tierce.

If you had role info, you'd be 100% sure. And what was that about outguessing the mod?


Off to sleeeep

This interaction looks horrible, and he just looks like he is trying to avoid voting Bvoigt. However, if he really believed in what he was saying he wouldn't have changed his mind so quickly:

Yeah alright, explanations needed after what happened there

vote: bvoigt

Kinda feeling badsy about regfan, though

The back and forth and the weirdness in Staeg's read on Bv really looks bad for him.

[Dolorous Edd]

DCL/redff interactions

redff-Starbuck

interaction makes it unlikely that Starbuck is Stannis aligned. The redff dragging out and even starting the interaction can be partners trying to early distance, but Starbuck’s side seems genuine. The responds to redff seemed genuinely confused, and he just seemed to repeat a lot of theory stuff back.

DCL - MoI/Shadow/Tyene

interactions makes it unlikely that any of them are Stannis aligned. See his post 804.

Weak attack on

Benmage

(in post 804). It looks like the type of attack/interaction a scum partner would throw out when making catch up posts/ reads.

Again, weak attack on

Feysal

(post 804). He says that he doesn’t like netural playing style. And he says he’ll post examples of this “tomorrow”, but never actually comes around to it. Actually, I think that makes it slightly less that Feysal is partnered with DCL. DCL would’ve prob continued on and posted examples because it wasn’t likely that he would’ve forgot what he said about his partner and prob wanted to make sure he continued on that.

After all this however, he simply “sheeps” me and chooses

Jal

, even though he has expressed slight scum reads on others, and he expressed no scum read at all for Jal. And in the tiers he posts in 804:

Townreads: Dolorous, MoI, shadow
null leaning scum: Tierce
Scumreads: Jal, Feysal

He lists Jal as a strong scum read. There is no way in he there can simply be a strong scum read based on sheeping someone else. Note, while he also mentions that he doesn’t like Benmage, Benmage doesn’t appear at all in the tiers (this is probably a plus in Benmage’s favor, seeing as DCL would’ve prob made sure he put him in the tiers if he mentioned him). Neither Tyene, who he also expresses scumread on. But Jal is there?

This really makes Jal a likely partner.

It’s the type of interaction that I would expect a scum who just came in the game to do. It is that weird combination of pushing on someone and saying they are scum, but knowing they are no where near a lynch, so it’s really a “safe-push” meant for you to look good. Not that it seems he put much effort in it though, because I really don’t consider saying “sheeping Player X” as really much effort.

I really don’t like the interactions with

Regfan

. Like at all. Even early when he replaced in, post 881, he starts interacting with regfan awkwardly, kinda isolating him for it seems no real particular reason.

Slight chainsaw in post 924 of

Kortul

, however in seems somewhat genuine and no really alignment indicative.

Again, back to the awkward interaction with regfan 1311. In usual cases, I take a scum pushing constantly on someone out of the blue as prob not partner indicative, but in this case the whole atmosphere just seems so rather awkward and poorly conveyed, that it just seems like it’s staged.

The BS throw at

Lyanna

in 1374 makes it unlikely for a Lyanna-DCL partnership.

Meh, the rest is just either continuing to just argue bsingly with Lyanna, or just hop on the Stefan wagon.

MoI

hammer of DCL makes it unlikely that he is scum with him. DCL got pissed that he was hammered. Not really sure why? The dude put himself at L-1, what the hell do you expect when you vote yourself, and then get mad you were chosen?

Meh, that’s pretty much it.

That was pretty much a redff/DCL sided interaction, so if someone has time to look at what others’ sides of the interaction, that can prob work out even better.

Sadly, I don’t have the time right now.

However, I do have time to look at Jal’s POV. Post 1395, Jal chooses Feysal over DCL. At the time, Feysal was at 8 and DCL was at 12, so it was pretty close, and could’ve still swung any way. This is what Jal had to say about DCL:

DLC's slot leans a bit town. redFF coming back after awhile, speaking only of Starbuck briefly and then replacing the game just struck me as town. I think scum would be a lot more mindful of what they'd say.

Which is pretty much crap.

He also hadn’t mentioned the redff/DCL spot at all before, making it convenient for him to come at any time and drop a read one way or another on the slot without having something before that he has to continue on.

TL;DR

Jal-DCL scum together is very very likely.
Regfan-DCL had some pretty weird interactions, so you should prob look over that yourself.
Starbuck/MoI/Shadow/Tyene/Lyanna/Feysal are all not likely Stannis aligned.
Benmage is on the fence, but it’s a slight feeling both ways, so prob very unlikely that much can come up from this (should prob look at the reverse interaction, though).

[Dolorous Edd]

So, a vig that didn't shoot should probably explain some things and a vote surely can't do any harm.

He could've easily been roleblocked or something? Why jump on him right away simply while waiting for an explanation? Voting someone means you think they're scum, or you are trying to apply pressure, or you're trying to achieve a

goal

. Simply voting them to wait for an explanation is just bad.

And yes, while a 2nd vote out of however so many people are needed to lynch can't do "any harm", it's expressing your thoughts to the others. And as I said, that means you're trying to really achieve a goal. Not wait for an explanation. Yes, after hearing an explanation you can then go ahead and vote based on if you didn't like it, but why are you voting

before

you hear the explanation.

[Dolorous Edd]

If Bvoigt flips on a different faction than DCL, then it is very likely that Staeg is his scumbuddy.

And at the same time, it will make a Jal-DCL scumbuddies much more concrete.

[Dolorous Edd]

We're not disagreeing with one another. However, they were pretty non-existent in so far as giving opinions and trying to direct town. They seemed a rather benign pair so I'm pretty surprised they were taken out so early. I've seen confirmable town last for several days if they weren't much of a presence before.

Well, you see, it actually makes perfect sense to take out the masons early.

1) The masons were pretty much confirmed townies. Yes, there was some doubt to their claim, blah blah blah, but sooner or later they would've even became more obv that they were masons. Taking them out early would keep the paranoia that there is scum in the strong town reads, or of course, there

is

scum in the huge pile of town reads, and in either case it benefits the scum.
2) No doctor would've really went for the masons. Yet at the same time, scum would be lowering the obv town pool while at the same time taking out the least likely paranoia theory (that SS and green were scum together).

I just got some clarification from Faraday that everyones jailkeeping votes will be made public tomorrow in a vote count of a sort so instead of having us all arrange to vote 2-3 players that are fairly universal town-reads I think it's flat out better for everyone to just decide their jailkeeper vote privately, this way we can base reads of it later and it means that scum have very little information to work with when factoring in kills or who sends in the kills.

Hmm.. you probably shouldn't have said that. For example, I interpreted the jailing as the mod will announce the

numbers

, not the actually people who voted where. If scum saw it like that too, they could've sent in their votes for someone to try block a PR or something.

Okay, will continue my DCL-interactions thing. Will prob look over who who voted where and for what reason, and prob look over Regfan as well.

[Dolorous Edd]

We need like a billion prods please.

Not really, day has only been open for 15 hours...

[Dolorous Edd]

Linked chooses for the lazy. It probably isn't very helpful, but I do it anyways so it can help me if I need to re-look up where/when/why someone voted instead of having to dig through pages/ISOs.

No More Choosing

Feysal (7) - greenknight, Shinori, Benmage, Albert B. Rampage, Saporerint Mastermind of Sin, Jal
Minimum (1) - Mockingjaye
Starbuck (1) – Starbuck
greenknight (1) – Seraphim

DLCXVI (15) – Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, Regfan, Pandora, Feysal, Lyanna Stark, Kortul, Plums Yo Mamma, Staeg, Dolorous Edd, SnowStorm, Shadow1psc, bvoigt, DCLXVI, MagnaofIllusion

kortul (1) StefanB

Not Choosing (2):

Minimum, BBmolla

A Choose has been locked in. Further choose/unchoosing will not be counted.

- Note, for Shinori, I linked the post where she wanted to Choose Feysal, she just didn’t do it in red, so her next post is her doing it in red (and it would be stupid to just link that).
- I have no idea why the hell Albert voted one way or another o.O.

Albert

, please explain why you chose Feysal, and please try to provide some reads/thoughts.
- WTF? Starbuck still had a chose on herself? C’mon, FFS please try to contribute to the game.

Also, while I was going through, I found this.

Benmage

, do you still believe in the same wagon analysis, or did your views change on some people?

[Dolorous Edd]

DCL/Jal/Regfan scumteam.

Bvoigt/Staeg/MoS scumteam.

Starbuck might be some weird third party.

---

THESE PEOPLE ARE TOWN. THEY SHOULD NEVER EVER BE LYNCHED.

2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
9) MagnaofIllusion
13) Shadow1psc
20) Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)
22) Pandora (Hydra)
Salamence20 23) Sapororerint (Iecerint/Saporovirus)
25) BBmolla
pappums rat Amrun15) Zdenek
Hyperion8) Shinori
21) Feysal
hasdgfas12) Albert B. Rampage

THE SCUMS

5) Staeg
14) Regfan
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin
27) Jal

WHAT'S LEFT(the lynches after the above pile)

3) Mockingjaye
Petyr Baelish7) kortul
1) Minimum (Mina/CES)
10) Plum's Yo Mamma
18) Benmage

AND YET STILL WHAT'S LEFT (weird third party?)

24) Starbuck

[Dolorous Edd]

For one if you think I'd buss in a multi-ball on D1 you're kidding yourself or don't know me at all

I think you're trying to create this imaginary scene in which you pushed so hard on DCL and lead his wagon with a fiery passion. You didn't. Reality is, he comes in, you basically attack him and say you don't like his replacement entrance. Then you just start pointing out things that any person would've already saw "sheeping edd" "snips a little here and there". It basically sounds like a tutoring session than actually genuine suspicion. Then you just post a big paragraph in 892 that is basically looking like you're trying to guide DCL rather than actually suspect him. He doesn't even respond to that (and you don't push it back either). Then you just tell him to link you to games he was scum and town, and then ignore what he posted and what he says. Post 1206 you say

"Also I don't like a Shadow wagon but I can do with DCL though right now my preference probably still is one of Minimum and Stefan but there's no support for either of those."

Which is really funny. Because DCL did not have a wagon on him

at all

when you voted (note, not chose) for him, and you say you prefer a Mini or Stefan yet you vote someone you suspect less, who was no wagon. Yea, ok. It just looks like you are trying to distance and look like you are pushing on DCL if DCL were ever to get lynched and flip scum, yet at the same time you leave your doors open to conveniently vote Mini or Stefan. Then you switch and choose DCL in 1244, which puts him in no danger whatsoever, because at that time, both greenknight and Feysal were much more likely choices. Some time later, DCL gets paranoid and sees that he jumped to something like L-2. And then he just starts counter-pushing on you. C'mon, let's be honest, did he

really

think he could've honestly pushed a lynch on you? Or was it all just for glamour, to look like you had just pushed this big huge wagon on him and that he was trying to battle it back? In reality though, I don't really see why he would've singled you out at all, because frankly you really didn't push

that

hard, and most of the votes just ended up coming after the switch when greenknight claimed mason. 1374, DCL lists you so boldly as scum and saying "already explained why his [your] vote was bad". And DCL does actually make a very good point. You did basically ignore what you asked for and then did not say anything indicating you factored it in your vote. Too bad though, the only person who would've noticed that at that time would've been your scum partner, because frankly, while

you

did seem to focus on DCL to the point that you wouldn't have forgotten some of the things he said,

he

on the other hand gave no real indication that he was suspecting you or keeping a watch on you or anything. Your whole interaction on a whole just seems artificer. It's like you didn't really expect him to actually get lynched/chosen in the end, but because of certain situations (ex, greenknight claiming mason) everybody just ended up putting pilling up their votes on DCL, which just left you in a position to either a) continue to push and make it look like you believe in what you're doing even more or b) to retract and lessen the attack on DCL. Obv, (a) is a much much better option, and so you just seemed to go with that.

For three I want you to explain to me why Kortul/Benmage are in your nullish tier, think both are relatively obvtown.

Kortul because he just clicks off. He just feels weird on the whole. And whenever I look at his ISO, I really don't feel like he's done anything that scum can't do.
Benmage because I don't like the way DCL in his one of his earlier posts just sniped a little at him, but didn't really continue with it or anything. And while Benmage has been active, etc, I really don't want to end up getting screwed over because he turns out to be scum. However, he really should be one of the much later lynches if anything. I just feel like I shouldn't just place him in the town pile because I'm really starting to lose the confidence about him I once had.

[Dolorous Edd]

Also I'm pretty damn sure that DCLs whole push on me was him attempting to try and create paranoia of 'oh he's going to shoot Regfan if we give him a gun so we shouldn't choose him' rather than anything else, go back and take a look, that's what he was playing at with it. Worked in a way too, I was super worried that I was going to get vigged at night.

Umm, no? If he was town there was no way in hell he would've actually vigged you. Idc what he actually said, I am 99% sure that he would've ended up shooting someone else. But instead of wasting time on what could've been done, etc, I really don't see why he couldn't have done this and be your partner also?

But alas, trust me my scumread on you is no where near concrete, and there was some things in your interactions that gave me pauses. Might reevaluate later, etc. But if Jal does flip scum and with Stannis, then you definitely should be lynched before endgame. If I would have to rank my lynch preferences day by day it would be something like:

Bvoigt today --> Jal tomorrow --> Staeg the next day (if Bvoigt flips with a different faction than DCL) --> MoS the next --> Regfan the next --> And then the rest of the ones I listed in 1689 (and Starbuck should really get vigged or something at some point )

And as long as Lyanna/Tyene/Magna/Shadow/Plesszar/Pandora/Sapororerint/BB/Zdenek/Shinori/Feysal/Albert are not lynched, I don't think it can turn bad for town.

[Dolorous Edd]

I don't mind a Shinori jail. Think that this is better than just randomly trying to target people and not knowing who we might stop from using their ability, etc. I'm sending in my jail choice later today.

It just seems a waste of a mechanic that might help us avoid a night-kill, because if we decide on it in public, scum will just kill someone else.

No, you see the trick is to try and

preserve

someone we don't want dying at all costs. Even if it is made public. At this point, I want to guarantee that Shinori will live to tomorrow to share her info. And no, I would definitely not want her to share it now instead of tomorrow. I respect her discretion and think it is better kept secret till the actual day it can be useful instead of giving scum a heads up before.

Anyways, we should prob not prolong this day longer than it has to. I really suspect nothing much can come out of it besides all of us waiting for everyone to check in and make up our minds on the jailing and then piling on Bvoigt.

[Dolorous Edd]

Mod, prods for the people that haven't posted since day started please?

I'm interested in what Bvoigt has to say (What

could

you even possibly say in his position?)

[Dolorous Edd]

Yea, okay. Jail Shinori, lynch Bvoigt, end day.

[Dolorous Edd]

I assume I don't have an active ability, correct?

?

[Dolorous Edd]

Or worse--it's a PM to the mod. That makes more sense.

Yea, the way I see it is he is worried that he might get investigated by Shadow or something and he wants to get his story straight if he needs to claim (obv, not like Bvoigt :p)

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, that reeks of being a QT post misposted to the main thread.

This, on the other hand is highly preposterous. The QT looks no where near the main thread, nor would he be asking a question to the mod there -_- How was this your first instinct?

[Dolorous Edd]

Excuse me, let me park my vote on scum for a little while.
VOTE: Saporerint

Please put your vote on Bvoigt -__- We are not having 2 competing wagons of scummies. And frankly, Bvoigt still has a higher percentage of hitting scum (though they are both high indeed :p)

[Dolorous Edd]

What I accidentally posted is part of a longer back-and-forth. You're interpreting it out-of-context.

I've sent Faraday a PM to see how much other context I can provide. <_<

@ Mina -- It will be clear why Shadow's result claim prompted me to start correspondence with the Mod. That line itself may still be weird depending upon how much context I'm allowed to provide.

- Iec

Umm, obv you can pretty much say anything without directly quoting it? There is no guarantee what you'll say is true, and you can pretty much be making up whole conversations, so I don't see why it should cross any lines...

Ex, Regfan saying he asked the mod about the public jail, and explaining what the mod said, etc.

Also, I think the active/passive/factional abilities are pretty obv (can they get any more obv than (A) (P) (F)?). So I don't really see why you should be digging on further for that other than that you have some weird ability that you want to make sure is not active so you can get your story straight if ever investigated by Shadow.

[Dolorous Edd]

I think we should hear Saporeint story today.

And I do not because it will almost certainly end in a claim and we can worry about that tomorrow, if they are not dead.

Better he claims now than tomorrow? For obv lynches like that that are being lined up it is easier for a vig, etc to kill them at night instead of having us waste a day just wagoning him and it's better that he knows what he's taking out instead of then Iec turning out to be a stong PR or something <_<

Edd: Chooses DCL in 1289] despite recently having listed DCL as "leaning town" (in 1242) and continuing to suggest that DCL was town (in 1323).

What's really off about this is that in 1242 he has Feysal as a strong scum read ... and Feysal was still the competing Choose wagon. Why move off somebody you think is scum and onto somebody you think is town when these are the only competing wagons?

This really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Edd, please explain this decision for us.

We still have a (weakish) town read on Edd, but stuff like this doesn't help at all. It just feels like he's not really paying attention to the game (despite all the posts) - even now he's not a hydra, his positions jump around like crazy from post to post.

Umm, I'm not really sure? I

think

I was thinking that the DCL wagon was more likely to be chosen since everybody started jumping on it.

And seriously, after DCL claimed, I really didn't want to run up another person for a claim with the amount of people that had claimed. So I just stuck on the DCL wagon.

Fun fact: If you count the times I alt slipped, it doesn't really amount to that much

[Dolorous Edd]

Jail Shinori.

Iec claim.

Lynch Bvoigt.

End day.

Doc on Shadow.

[Dolorous Edd]

(I've sent my jailkeep vote in.)

[Dolorous Edd]

No final reads. tsk tsk.

Stupid Daykill gambit ... tsk tsk ...

Is there still time to lynch Zde?

You would think so, but he's town.

Also, can everyone rank Sapo, Jal, Staeg, and Mockingjaye in order of suspicion please?

[Dolorous Edd]

House Dayne of Starfall is a Dornish noble house sworn to House Martell. The Sword of the Morning is a title given to a Dayne knight who is considered worthy of wielding the greatsword Dawn, a blade said to be created from the heart of falling star. Their sigil is a sword and a falling star on a lavender background

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm pretty sure nothing there's nothing whatsoever that Saporerint could claim that would make this less of a no-brainer, but I'll be nice and wait for them before locking my vote in.

I was nice and wanted them to claim yesterday? But they didn't listen to me

I think we should hear Saporeint story today.

And I do not because it will almost certainly end in a claim and we can worry about that tomorrow, if they are not dead.

Better he claims now than tomorrow? For obv lynches like that that are being lined up it is easier for a vig, etc to kill them at night instead of having us waste a day just wagoning him and it's better that he knows what he's taking out instead of then Iec turning out to be a stong PR or something <_<

It was going to be so boring with the "let's all jump on Sapo guys" that was day 2. You guys should be thanking me for making the day more interesting! :p

Ftr, I wanted to battle Jal so badddd He's obv scum because of the Jail count though.

Plessiezarus (2) - Jal, Staeg

These 2 need death, followed by Mockingjaye bandwagoning on Shinori.

Also:

Odd/Even vigs are probably as common as normal vigs. I don't think that's what DEdd's talking about, though.

So, anyway - I don't think DE is holycraptown. So, unless he actually says something useful, I'm not moving.
(no, that's not rolefishing - that's me diving headfirst into the rolelake with spear in hand)

I'm about to go to sleep, but: DEdd, if bvoigt flips town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

I'm about to go to sleep, but: DEdd, if bvoigt flips town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Of course not?

But it's much better than anything you have left to work with today, isn't it?

I was under the assumption that you had role info, because lynching a TWICE-CONFIRMABLE role is, uh, retarded?

Also I'm with tierce.

Hi role fishing Staegggg! Knowing your partner is claiming a fake role and trying to role fish the shit out of someone who hints at a cc or something close is very nice Too bad you backed off too quickly? "I was under the assumption that you had role info" is very cute, if maybe I was a stupid enough to say "But I do!". Too bad I'm not?

[Dolorous Edd]

Also, remember what BB said - Aegon's troops are split up so they don't know each other. So Bvoigt shouldn't be tried to be matched with two many people, since he prob only knew one partner (and vice versa). Anything more would equal something like (Bvoigt, aegon scum, aegon scum) (aegon scum, aegon scum, aegon scum) [if it's split up evenly. But even something like 3-2 is overpowered for 1 scum team, and 3-1 would make no sense as 2-2 would make much more].

I made some handy dandy things to do for today:

- Shinori should claim the stuff she knows.
- People should totally be taking out Sapo before the page is over :p Look, I'm already helping you guys by voting him!
- GODHAND someone (my personal preference is Regfan, but etc)
- Anyone else who got a message that they want to share should totally feel free.
- Lynch someone!

[Dolorous Edd]

By the way, Dolorous Arthur, for next time, be a bit more discreet, because that quote was the most obvious vig softclaim ever (particularly when combined with your reaction to bvoigt on Day One).

Bvoigt claims vig -> “This is a fake claim. Lynch it with fire”.
Sapo slip -> “You prob should claim. You know, because someone might want to vig, and they should know if they take out a stong PR”
Pre-lynch which was obv Bvo -> “Guys, can you please rank these four people from most to least suspicious. Kthx.”



As for Jal/Staeg, I can see one of them (or maybe both if they're together?) try to vote-jail someone that was most prob not going to reach majority, and then kill them, because it would look to obv that scum would kill the person they jailed and was possibly protected from kill.

[Dolorous Edd]

My list - myself, Tyene, Plum Momma, Magua, Reg, Benmage, MoS ... and maybe I could have my arm wrung to Minimum. No chance anyone outside this group gets my Godhand vote.

I prefer Regfan - Minimum - Benmage in that order. No one else really. Tyene is obv town. MoS is scum, and doesn't need waiting till day6 to get lynched (actually he prob does, since Staeg/Jal/Mocking need death before him, but etc). Plum is leaning town, and he's not really a threat, and if he's scum, he'll prob get caught by PoE sooner or later. Magua is meh; cow already put a townread on that slot, and while it's not as concrete as some of the others, if he's scum PoE will sooner or later kick in. MoI is just weird with "I should be chosen day1" "I should be Godhanded day1" etc. So I can maybeee consider him as a compromise. But he's leaning town for his thinking/ideas that seem to come from town.

[Dolorous Edd]

For the record, Edd, Faraday could have easily thrown in both an odd-night vig AND your role (part of why I didn't immediately sheep you on bvoigt was because I thought you could be a weak killing role who didn't know Faraday's mod meta).

Odd night vig and even night dude who can battle people is pretty OP? And, unrelated, I have to put myself in danger (and reveal my role) to use my role while he can just Thor hammer people (yes Mina, Thor reference just for you )? Pretty unevened out roles?

[Dolorous Edd]

HURT: Sapo

Half the hydra has posted on site since thread opened. I see no point in waiting for this particular discussion since we have to get Godhand sorted out and that WILL take time. This is just a repeat of bvoigt lurking his Doom away.

Yea. Let's just lurk it out like Bvoigt, but at least it'll do more effect because we're just wasting town's time

Also,

VOTE: Staeg

He needs death. Fast. His role proves nothing. And Tammy, IIRC, in the WoT game, where you got a similar role by Faraday, the roles were

randomly

distributed (because IIRC, a scum had a finder role?), so it makes a lot of sense to give a similar role to scum (and one can argue it even makes more sense).

[Dolorous Edd]

Ohh! I love Lady Dustin. She is one of my fav minor characters in ADWD. Don't know why others hate her. She's so awesome.

That is all. Proceed to the regularly broadcasting.

I don't really see DE being lynched over us, so I suspect we will not survive D3. Sapo and I differ on how town we find him (i.e., she more than I), but we both have a town read on him. I'll get some thoughts in before we die.

Do you think me targeting you/my ability makes me more town? Thoughts on me targeting you? Are your scumbuddies going to kill me tonight? Are you Aegon aligned, but not Bvoigt-partnered?

All theses questions; no answers

[Dolorous Edd]

"Elia of Dorne," they all heard

Ser Gregor

Dolorous Edd say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into

Oberyn's

Sapo's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her."

Clegane

Edd slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinteres of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold down air. There was a sickening crunch."

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay, so due to the flip I don't think Bvo and Sapo knew each other (Sapo was an "informed goon")

I'm guessing, based on the flavor it can be Illyrio and Varys know each other and Connington and Aegon know each other?

~Duplicate deleted

[Dolorous Edd]

I doubt that in as much as bvoigt didn't flip Informed ... probably something along the lines that he knew something about a role held by a player of another alignment (similar to Hito's Informed roles).

Yea, you're right:

*Informed means he had information about another player(s) role.

I could've sworn that wasn't there the first time ._.

[Dolorous Edd]

@Dolorous Edd: If you really wanted to duel me and think I'm for sure scum, why didn't you? Not making the day boring by all voting for Sapo doesn't really cut it since that's essentially what people did anyway with the hurt mechanic.

FFS I have to try and

justify

my actions now? Also, good job for totally missing everything even close to the usage of my role. Totally nice misrep.

"Not making the day boring by all voting for Sapo doesn't really cut it since that's essentially what people did anyway with the hurt mechanic."

Orly?

Obv

it's going to be people jumping on him on the hurt mechanic. The point

was

for people to jump on him in a battle

instead

of simply wasting a lynch that gains no information. And now, people can choose better amongst the lesser suspicions. This is a team game. Instead of really putting myself in the position of deciding who to pick from the lower suspicions, and then having people simply pick Sapo in the lynch mechanic, do you not think it is much better for town and gains a lot more information if the obv target was taken out and then people can decide from the other suspicions?

Feysal, if Staeg is scum it's doubtful he would have outed his real role.

Why? Please explain. Don't skim over this. Don't slip by this. You don't have some type of VIP pass of throwing thoughts into the air with no explanation. And no, you're not going to lurk the shit out of the thread and then come back here and snip on things here and there.

And how do you suspect Staeg? So you don't believe that is his real role. Do you believe he is fake-claiming? If so, how would he know Regfan/whoever weren't Freys? Do you think he has a similar role as scum (ex, role cop who investigated Regfan/whoever and found out they're not Frey's and modified his role a bit for a fake-claim?).

(Sorry for being a bit snarky, it's late at night).

[Dolorous Edd]

Because they might have been Frey scum fakeclaiming. Because they might have been thingmajiggered by some weird scum role.

But most of all, because I believed that they would solve themselves.

You mean, solving itself out in time when you could've solved it for yourself much earlier and found useful info for both yourself and the town (regardless of whether you chose to share it yourself) instead of basically gaining useless info?

How you are still not lynched yet baffles me.

[Dolorous Edd]

Also, I change my mind about the Godhand. Don't want Reg anymore. Right now it's:

Mini/Plum/Benmage for me.

That is all.

[Dolorous Edd]

Eduardo, I am not interested in your little diatribes. I am asking you a question on something you have not fully explained. Just straight-up give me an answer instead of giving me this accusatory word vomit. Perhaps I don't quite understand the mechanics of your role. I want you to explain it to me before going any further down this line of discussion.

I'll make it clear as to what I was trying to get at though.

Why aren't you voting for me? If I am scum, why aren't you doing much about it? You call me scum, but you really don't do very much about it other than arbitrarily defining actions of mine as being scummy. You say things here and there, but you don't really

push

it. You don't actively engage in trying to get me gone. I seem to be just "there."

Okay, I'll put it in the most basic way I possibly can, and then I'm going to stop continuing this utterly pointless conversation.

Dol Edd here suspects you.

Unfortunately, since there is more than one scum in this game, Edd has other suspects too.

In the same world Edd has been living in, there is also this other dude - let's call him Sapo - who made it pretty obv that he is scum.

When it came time for Edd to use his ability, instead of going after someone he suspects, he decided it was best to go after someone who was obv scum by helping the town save one day, instead of Edd deciding on a person from his suspicions and having the obv scum be the lynch.

Edd still has many suspects. And he is not retarded. He knows who can likely get lynched in a given day, and who can't. He knows Player A - let's call him Staeg - is one of his suspects, and he also sees that they are likely to be able to get today.

He also knows that player B - let's call him Jal - while also being one of his suspects, does not really have a chance to get lynched today.

He also knows (as you should prob know) that Player B - or Jal as we called him above - has a very low chance of getting anywhere near LyLo. He will get lynched sooner or later.

So, Edd decided (rather wisely if I say so myself) to push one of his suspects who can possibly get lynched today and then keep his other suspects for others days, since, you know, they're not going anywhere.

PS: "Perhaps I don't quite understand the mechanics of your role. I want you to explain it to me before going any further down this line of discussion."

^ Hi Staeg 2.0. Any other people going to try hardcore rolefishing this game? Please come out now and support your committee here.

Why do you want to know how my role works? So you know when to kill me? Or when to roleblock me? Or what?

There is nothing to explain with that question other than it's very unlikely Staeg as scum would claim his real role (by role I mainly meant character in regard to Kortul but I guess also role). Yes. I believe he at the very least has a similar role. I already said I am leaning to MoI's opinion in that he is probably a role cop of some sort.

The thing to explain is

why

it is "very unlikely Staeg as scum would claim his real role ". I mean, Wyman Manderly is very in the gray area. I really don't believe that would be given as a fake-claim. Like Regfan said, I am positive that what the character he claimed is his real character. But it can still go either way.

[Dolorous Edd]

UNVOTE:

GODHAND: Plum's Yo Mamma

[Dolorous Edd]

VOTE: Staeg

[Dolorous Edd]

Hi. If I die tonight (which is pretty obv, since I don't think scums would leave a vigish type role ._.), kill of Jal/Mocking/MoS, then start cutting on the fat that is Starbuck/Feysal. Kortul/Benmage need to go at some point also, just for paranoia's sake, but that can wait.

Also, I don't like how people suddenly are forgetting about the Stannis faction, which imo is the bigger threat both flavor wise and game wise - which I'm guessing by the red color flip (not really, but still).

General tiers coming up (trying to get this in in case thread locks).

[Dolorous Edd]

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand

LEANING TOWN:

zdenek, MagnaofIllusion, Shinori, Regfan, Magua

NULL:

Minimum, kortul, Benmage, Plum's Yo Mamma

LEANING SCUM:

Feysal, Starbuck

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Jal, Mastermind of Sin

- Note, null doesn't necessarily mean I don't have a read on them, it just means I don't have a very concrete read on them, and it can go both ways.
- Magua can end up being scum by PoE at some point if other suspects flip town, but that's later on.

Also, somewhere down the line BB needs to explain the circumstances around him receiving the news about the Aegon faction, and anyone else who receives letters should share them also.

[Dolorous Edd]

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand

LEANING TOWN:

zdenek, MagnaofIllusion, Shinori, Regfan, Magua

NULL:

Minimum, kortul, Benmage, Plum's Yo Mamma

LEANING SCUM:

Feysal, Starbuck

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Jal, Mastermind of Sin

- Note, null doesn't necessarily mean I don't have a read on them, it just means I don't have a very concrete read on them, and it can go both ways.
- Magua can end up being scum by PoE at some point if other suspects flip town, but that's later on.

Also, somewhere down the line BB needs to explain the circumstances around him receiving the news about the Aegon faction, and anyone else who receives letters should share them also.

[Dolorous Edd]

On the other hand, Minimum trying to paint Zdenek as scummy for hammering Staeg's lynch when there's been no talk or discussion about any alternative lynches, and especially with Minimum voting Staeg, is just posing for towncred.

Yea... no. Try again. Mini might be scum. But they're def not anywhere near scum for that. It sounded a lot more like genuine frustration rather than so cleverly try to brainwash people and painting Zdenek as scum for hammering. Anyone with a half a brain cell can tell Zdenek hammered. They will have their opinion on whether that makes Zdenek as scum or not, and I don't think anything Mini can say will really change anyone's thoughts on that, esp when I don't even see the connection you're seeing?

[Dolorous Edd]

Don't see Lyannas posts there as scummy at all. Explain that change. Do agree about Jal though, think he'd avoid having a spat with what is essentially conftown with a vig power as scum there.

Not if I suddenly end up in the grave I can't use my powers anymore? He'd look good by both "arguing" with me and and the same time my NK wouldn't really point to him, since any scum would try to take out a PR.

However, his "argument" sounds highly fake, and I don't see where he is coming from. If you see where he is coming from, please explain (that question is for anyone else who can see where Jal is coming from). Because I'm not the only apparent crazy person who thinks that his argument is highly artificial and fake. I saw both MoI and Tammy note it.

[Dolorous Edd]

There was no strategy. I had no idea who was likely to gather votes other than Shinori, and I did not want to vote him because I was fairly sure no scum would try to kill him for that precise reason. I would have been fine with any of my town reads being jailkept, and you had risen to strong town at the end of day one, so I picked you. I was not really aware how many people thought the same, or how many did not.

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight. You tried to counter the most obv wagon by choosing a random wagon that others who also want to counter the wagon might be choosing a random wagon other than yours? So instead of trying to pressure your votes in one place, all the Shinori-opposed people suddenly took it to their head to just target random people and hope that others happen to pick the same person?

Wait, and you picked someone who virtually very little people had a strong town read on in the first place? And all in hopes of trying to create a counter wagon to Shinori? Miracle worker much?

[Dolorous Edd]

Why would he think that arguing with you would make him look good? I don't see that being likely what he was thinking when doing it. I'll admit I've skimmed a lot of his bullshit response to you but I think it's moreso a case of him thinking he's in the right about something and arguing about it for the sake of arguing really. Also don't think it's likely you die tonight, doctor/any protective role should/would be on you.

Yes, but I genuinely cannot step into his shoes and say "Okay, I'm Jal, this is what I'm thinking, for X, Y, Z reasons". If I can see someone's POV, no matter how much I may disagree or think it's wrong, if I can genuinely step into someone's shoes and can see them coming genuinely, then there is no problem. But when you seem to be arguing for the sake of continuing the arguments for no apparent reason other than just appearing busy and looking like you are genuine and you truly believe in what you're saying, then we have a problem...

PEdit: I did a similar thing Edd. I didn't like Shinori being jailkept at all and figured that if he's town the fact that so much discussion in thread revolved around him being jailkept that scum would never take a shot at him so I threw down a vote on someone I was fairly confident was town and wanted alive (Pandora) hoping that there was a chance others might have done the same thing and that a death would be prevented from it even though it was unlikely to actually happen.

Yes, but do you see the difference? You chose someone who fairly a lot of people had a strong town read, so there was a good chance that someone who wanted to create a counterwagon who choose Pandora. OTOH, I think it is a very very slim chance that Mini would've been chosen.

[Dolorous Edd]

Also another thing that points to Shinori being scum is that I think as town he'd NOT want to have been jailkept as it would have meant blocking him from submitting a N2 investigation but he never once mentioned the subject, think it's possible he didn't know how it would have been received as scum so he just stayed quiet about it where-as as town I think he'd have been vocal on it.

Oh yea, I caught that yesterday but decided to stay quiet about it, because Shinori was being very vague, and I wasn't sure what role/info they had. But now that it turns out they have a PR, what's the point of saving a PR and simply blocking them from using their powers? Why not just claim right away? Not really sure what to make out of it though Can be Shinori genuinely confused or can be faked-confusing combined with genuine scum confusion. Also, I got the impression that he was trying to play down the newbie card when I wouldn't really consider him a newb.

Will ISO him in the Kingdom Hearts game where he was scum. I think he was replaced out at some point, but still made decent posts there.

Okay, out for now.