A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Magua]

*points at list of people to vote*

*spreads arms wide*

[Magua]

*begins reading the thread*

*has not sent in a vote yet*

[Magua]

Scumhunter replaces Starbuck. Welcome him to the game

*replaces out*

Anyways, I started reading Day 1, and got to page 8 and then said screw it, and jumped to the end of Day 1 and read Day 2. I may go back and read Day 1 someday, but today is not that day.

Let's start with my strong/obvious reads, shall we?

Town

Shinori:

Unbelievably town; don't think anyone's disagreeing with me here. All the people who are like, "Why'd you say anything?" are dumb. All the people who are like, "You should say it now," are dumber. Like, seriously dumb. No, seriously, strongest town read ever, even stronger than Shadow.

Shadow:

I've personally seen Shadow bus his buddy in multiball in the worst way imaginable (in Kingdom Hearts), so I know he's capable of doing it, but I was able to twig him as scum trivially easy there, and I'm not getting the same read from him here. Also, figuring he learned from his experience and would not be eager to repeat it.

Zdenek:

God, I loved playing against him in War in Heaven III when I was scum and he was town, and he managed to just rub everybody the wrong way, and I see him doing it here. I do skip most of his posts, though, because my limit for quote-striping is about on par with a snail's limit for salt, but he's still town.

Dolorous Edd:

Probably the only person who posts walls who I actually have any incentive to read (well, sometimes). Not much meta-experience with Ser Arthur Dayne, but At the very least, whilst reading, I come up with an opinion, and then a few posts later find that he's posted it, which is good enough for me (very low bar).

Plessiezarus:

Sort of like Dolorous Edd, but weaker. I can stomach most of their posts. Don't mind the hydra dissonance -- don't understand people getting upset about it.

Null

MagnaofIllusion:

You think I'd be able to read him better with our hydra and all, but no. I'm applying my usual Magna-rule to him: Listen to him (as much as possible) until D4; if he's still alive, lynch him.
(Footnote: His posts read...nicer...to me in this game than in others that I've played in, but I can't tie that to an alignment tell one way or another.)

Regfan:

If I die tonight, Reg is scum. Also, don't agree with his townread on Tierce (see below). But, if this is multiball, even if Regfan is scum he's going to be decent at finding the other team, so they'll inevitably shoot him. So, MagnaofIllusion-lite, as it were.

Saporerint:

At the very least, the jump over the PM-posted-in-thread I don't buy at all, especially the "Why would town ever have any reason to post that?" that I see coming from Tierce and Regfan. I'm not really a believer in scumslips at the best of times, but the way things went -- *especially* Tierce's "That's an obv mispost from a QT" -- read to me like people trying to make hay that isn't there, which makes me think town. Slot hasn't done anything terribly townie, but I got to be me, so I'll settle for the null pile.

Benmage:

Fuck Benmage.

Scumhunter:

Fuck Scumhunter.

Feysal:

I believe I have read Feysal as scum in literally every game that I've played with him[1], so I absolutely do not trust my current opinion of reading him as scum here.

([1] Super-secret-Feysal-towntell from Good vs Evil excepted, because I was reading him as scum up until that point.)

Scum

bvoigt:

Due to (non-)reaction to Shadow's claim against him. Scum-giveup. Yeah, yeah, Captain Obvious, etc, but there you go.

Tyene Sand:

Don't like the way Tierce jumps on things at all. Reads very much like scum trying to mudsling or sow suspicion. There was the bit with Feysal in the first few pages of D1, and then this with saporerint both make me go "no." Also, Regfan has some super townread on Tierce, which, AFAIK, proves my point.

Jal:

Too many wall posts (though there are plenty guilty of that), but too defensive in his posts. It's not about finding scum, it's about proving to others that he's not scum.
(Footnote: I'm assuming Jal is a Westeros-er immigrant)

People who aren't in the list haven't made enough of an impression on me to have an opinion, though I was sorely tempted to put Tammy into the scum pile just to have something to do, but then I realized I'd develop another case of carpal tunnel from holding down the shift key. Given my insufficient number of strong scumreads, that's a little problematic, but whatever, I wasn't supposed to replace in until D3-ish anyways.

I'm sending in my jailkeep vote on one of my townreads listed above (hint: Shinori). Not going to vote bvoigt.

[Magua]

I think Magua is town. While that post is heavily lacking, I can see the way he achieved some of the non-obvious reads. The main thing I dislike s the way some of his reads are connected without substance; going over his read on me, for example, you'd expect him to develop the Regfan line more, but you go back to Regfan and it's just an empty loop. However, I do understand how he's getting the read he has on me, and it's called Paranoia Mafia, where I was scum and was blatantly calling out town on not knowing their own role PMs. There's an issue here, Magua--in Paranoia, I was clearly not giving a damn about the players' motivations in doing Stupid Shit. Here I've been trying to reason them out and making up my mind about it.

The Paranoia Mafia reference is apt. It's the angle of your attacks. In Paranoia, you were all, "Town would never misread their PM like that," and pushed the wagon based on that, knowing full well that that was pretty much exactly what had actually happened. Here, in regards to Saporerint, you're all, "Town would never send that PM," and I am seeing it line up the same way.

As for Regfan: I'm not bothering to read Regfan. Not kidding about the MoI resemblance -- I'll lynch him if he's still around D4. Unless MoI is also still around D4, in which case he gets lynched first.

In regards to the bolded … remind me again what recent game it was we were NOT Hydraing together in and we debated whether a scum-slip was valid and whoever it was flipped scum and I was right and all in your face about it. I’m being lazy but am pretty sure this actually happened and I’m not imagining it.

Captain Ajax in Scummies.

I'll happily repeat what I said there: He didn't "slip." He was scum, and he got attacked for something (changed read on Fonz IIRC), but those two facts are not cause/effect. D1 attacks are bullshit anyways (as a contra-example, I remember people crowing about your "slip" in ASOIAF, eg, but you were town).

Would you not have assessed Snowstorm’s play as very similar (too defensive and not worried about finding scum)? Because at a gut level I’m not getting Jal-scum (yes, I am not really reading her that closely) and wonder if this is a “Westros import” symptom.

Can't *really* compare, as I haven't read Snowstorm in D1 and don't really care to at this point. But on a rough guess, Jal *feels* like a Westeros import, whereas Snowstorm seems like a new player (that is, new entirely, not new from somewhere else), so I would have different expectations.

Magua, explain to me why Shinori revealing whatever information he has now is dumb because I don't see it that way at all.

Really surprised to see you say this. I'll take it slow, so you can tell me where you fall off.

- Shinori's information is not a straight up guilty, else he would've outted it.
- If Shinori's information is a straight up innocent, he should not out it (it's not due to the questions he's been asking, but I'm just being complete here)
- So Shinori's information is of an imprecise form, either of a pseudo nature ("I roleblocked X and there was a missing kill", "I saved X and there was a missing kill," etc), or of the form "One of X, Y, Z is scum."

In all those cases, given that Shinori will be alive tomorrow, there's zero reason to out it today. Outting it doesn't help, but does give scum the ability to plan around the information (shoot/not shoot someone depending) because they have more information than we do so can make more use of whatever it is that Shinori knows. Especially given multiball, I do not want to do anything that might reduce the chance of crosskills.

As for reading you: I'll read you D4. Either I can go to the OP and look at the deadlist, or I'll say "Regfan is alive D4, scum." Easy peasy.

Magua, how do you not have me as the townest of the town?? You know Faraday hates me right?

So far, the two times I've been town with you, I've seen you govern scum in lylo, and counterclaim a cop as VT and get them lynched.

So I'm actually scared of the possibility that you might be town.

I've said what I want to say about DCL scum. Those Stannis-aligned are few. There's a decent chance all Stannis scum were on his bandwagon at least at the very end given the a) Inevitability b) The vengeful mechanic c) He was only a goon. It really just comes down to the experience and skill of Stannis-aligned. Other than Edd's sorry-ass attempts to call DCL town, there weren't a lot of people really sticking out their necks to defend DCL. I'm going to guess at the very least lot of distancing was involved or non-mentioning when the votes started accumulating, and mainly by DCL himself.

This sort of generalization (Stannis are in this group) is not useful. Useful is saying who in that group you actually think is Stannis.

Also, I'm not from westeros (the site).

Have you played mafia before mafiascum.net? If so, where/how long?

[Magua]

Goddammit, Magna is making me quote stripe.

[Magua]

And I thought zoraster was a terrible scumtroll.

[Magua]

Guys, I copped bvoigt last Night, he's town.

[Magua]

Let's see.

saporerint is gonna die, right after they claim. Ambivalent about them actually being scum, but my townread on Edd was strong to begin with, and is now so strong it punches through walls. Want to do this as soon as possible to get the flip.

Godhand I was super excited about because I thought it would reveal alignment at the end of the Day and the person would be protected this Night, but then I read Feysal's thing and reread and yeah. That makes it not really quite so good. Don't want to use it on someone scummy, because then you're putting off their lynch until D6 in the event they're actually scum. It could be used on someone townie so they can't be killed N3, which is nice but public and all. I want to use it on someone who I'm not confident in, but who I probably would not lynch in the next two Days regardless. Thinking about it, I really want to use it on Tierce so I can stop worrying about her.

@Regfan:

Your hangup with flavor is terrible. It's either really his role, or it's a fakeclaim provided by Faraday/Seacore. Shit, son, Benmage was schooling you on how this works. kortul is the one I see asking the actually useful questions like "Why did you not investigate a claimed Frey?"

I guess a follow up question for Staeg is:

@Staeg:

You say you investigated Regfan to keep the shitflingers off of him. What did you think being a "Frey" meant N1?

Ninja'd.

Mmmmmm. This would be a lot easier in my mind if Shinori hadn't been all "STAEG I HAVE INFO YOU'RE SCUM OH HERE IT IS LET ME TELL YOU EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU RESPOND." Seriously, in the future, just be like, "Staeg, claim" and then see what happens -- telling him what you know only lets him lie better if he's scum.

[Magua]

Hurt saporerint

VOTE: Staeg

I approve of Tierce copying my methodology.

I can also get behind Godhanding Plums Yo Mama.

[Magua]

Oh ffs

Hurt saporerint

[hurt[saporerint[/hurt]

[hurttillitdonthurtnomore]saporerint[/hurttillitdonthurtnomore]

HEAL: saporerint

HURT WITH A BLADE: saporerint

One of those should do it.







HURT: saporerint

[Magua]

Easy mode is easy.

Thinking about it more, Godhand preference goes to Tierce, Feysal, Plums Yo Mama, Lyanna Stark (in approximately that order). These are good players who I still expect to be around D5 (not expecting them to be NKed or lynched) and who I would like a confirmation of one way or another.

[Magua]

Godhand: Plums Yo Mama

Moving Jal to Townieland because of his spat with Dolorous Edd. Moving Lyanna down towards scum. Still fine with a Staeg lynch for today.

[Magua]

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE

GODHAND: PLUM'S

FARADAY'S

YO MOAMA

[Magua]

Zdenek stays town.

On the other hand, Minimum trying to paint Zdenek as scummy for hammering Staeg's lynch when there's been no talk or discussion about any alternative lynches, and especially with Minimum voting Staeg, is just posing for towncred.

[Magua]

Alright. Actually playing and invested time.

Re: Me complaining about Minimum (and Tammy and kortul) complaining about lynching Staeg yesterday. Day had gone on five days, and at the end of that, it was really only "Let's wait until we've godhanded someone until we lynch" and during that time, nobody was going, "Hey, let's maybe lynch someone other than Staeg."

Minimum was voting to lynch Staeg. kortul and Tammy had both not placed a vote at all during the Day. So this "omg quicklynch but I wanted the Day to go on longer" is bullshit, and it reads like high posturing. Saying, essentially, "You lynched Staeg 5 days in? That's so

scummy

!"

God, that shit riles my nerves. Scum are more likely to be on the front of the wagon than on the back of the wagon precisely because of that sort of thinking. Will get back to that later.

Anyways.

Town

Plum's Yo Mamma (Nacho/Plum)

- Well, maybe not Townie McTownerson, but seeing as they're Godhanded, pretty much zero interest in considering them anything but town, because that'll sort itself out right quickly real soon like.

Shinori

- So I'm treading carefully with my "dumb is town" reads with saporerint, but, again, really not seeing Shinori's scum motivation for anything that he's done. He wasn't under pressure when he claimed, he's not pushing to save or kill anyone, and, pretty much most importantly to me, even if he is scum he's made himself a target to the other scumteam. Very reminiscent of, eg, UberNinja's play in Mafia Behind the Maiden. Reads as confused town, not conniving scum.

Jal

- Revised reading heavily townwards. Scum do not, as a rule, go after what is essentially a confirmed town, painting a big ol' target on their back while everyone else stands around and says, "Look at what that Jal is doing, that's so

scummy

!" Scum know Staeg's not on their team, no need to stir up trouble or attract notice, just go along with things and take care of Edd that Night. Jal does pretty much zero of these things. Newbie scum is like this but twice as much so.

Zdenek

- Continue to maintain townread. Super paranoid reads town.

Regfan

- Kind of sneaking him onto my townlist. I'm very much self-aware that my townread on Regfan is partly due to him having a townread on me, and that Regfan knows enough to push my buttons, but 1) Regfan-scum gets a little thrill for getting me mislynched, and 2) now that Magna is dead Regfan is likely next so whatever's fair. My only real worry, Regfan-wise, is that he's some bulletproof scum role, so, if you get down to 5 people or so, Regfan's still alive, and there's been some kills missing down the road, lynch his ass.

Lyanna Stark (Tammy)

- Entirely a gut read, based almost entirely on interactions with Benmage in the last two pages. Specifically seems like the way I originally reacted to Benmage, neither "Oh, that's cute, /ignore" nor "I'm going to nail your ass to the wall, scum," but more of a "What the fuck are you doing?" Sounded better in my head, I suppose.

Null

Benmage

- Fuck Benmage. I understand where Tammy's coming from in their interaction today so far, but there's pretty much literally no action, no matter how anti-town, that I'm willing to put past Benmage-town, and I really have no idea how to even read Benmage-scum.

BBmolla

- His AtE ramblings annoy the ever loving bejeezus out of me, but I saw him do it in Revolution Mafia, where it annoyed the every loving bejeezus out of me as well, but he turned up town. So. Gut-read him as scum there, was wrong, indecisive here.

Feysal

- Same as BBmolla. Gutread as scum, gutread has consistently been wrong before so is being ignored.

Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford)

- Pops in once every few days to make a small post, does nothing else. Very little to read. Surprised to see them listed as a townread so frequently.

Mastermind of Sin

- It's Day 3, and I literally have zero impression on MoS. Worrisome, but going through his ISO in brief shows similar reads to mine, so, pass for now.

4nxi3ty

- Not seeing mockingjaye hate. ISO is just big huge walls which make my head hurt, but seems to be little actual crunch in them. None of the reads are particularly out there one way or another, which is a little scummy, but meh -- D1 scumread list (Shadow, Minimum, Edd) is terribad, but does get revised going into D2, which makes the whole thing seem more legitimate.

Scum

Scumhunter

- Fuck Scumhunter. Agree with Regfan that Scumhunter-town would be contributing more, so the more lurkalicious he is the more likely he is to be scum.

kortul

- Slipped to a scumread more or less by default. His posting in a "hands off" style is probably null for him, metawise, but this is Day 4 and it's a continuation of asking questions without taking positions, notes on alignment-null topics such as the Day mechanics without reads, sort of thing. His posts read to me as just so neutral on everything. Not a strong scumread, but a scumread nonetheless.

Tyene Sand (Tierce)

- I'm not giving this one up. Distant, disengaged, not what I expect to see from Tierce-town. Revised slightly upwards because Tierce did jump all over saporerint's slip which was actually a slip, but this being multiball and Tierce being no stranger to bussing doesn't make me actually that much more trusting.

Minimum (Mina/CES)

- Not living up to expectations. Not many expectations coming from CES, to be perfectly honest, but I do expect more from Mina that I'm not seeing here (this reasoning is very similar to my Tierce-scum read, but a little more pronounced in this case).

La la la.

VOTE: Scumhunter

[Magua]

Magua, Scumhunter replaced Starbuck.... Try again.

And?

Your whole *fuck benmage* reads fake.

If only.

[Magua]

Looking forward to Shinoris explanation behind his thought process the past two days and what input his hydra partner had in it.

Wait, what? Shinori's a hydra?

Mmmm, I see, aborted attempt. Mmmmmm.

Magua, have you gone back and read through all of D1 now?

No, but I'll read through for mockingjaye's connections tomorrow.

Explain Pandora being obvtown, please.

This confuses me, since the most prominent read I have that is still alive is on Minimum, who I think is town. I'd think that would be fairly obvious from even a cursory read through my ISO.

I also think Tierce is probably town (don't think scum would have questioned the mason kills so strongly...just reads weird from anything but a town perspective), but that read was probably less obvious.

So...which reads exactly do you think we agree on?

Rereading your ISO, I've found that what I really agree with are your reads on players, but your stances on things, mechanics or setup-wise. That is, your read of the mason deaths in 1631/1684, your response to bvoigt in 1924, your godhand list, etc.

Your town-read on BBmolla being an exception, a read on a player that I do agree with. Yes, I had completely skipped that you had a townread on Minimum.

So,

@Mastermind of Sin:

Why do you have a townread on Minimum?

Overall impression is still highly blah. You're quick to jump on bvoigt and saporerint, so -Aegon points, but everything else is just so null.

@Benmage:

Still would like to know why Starbuck was obvtown to you. If it's for the self-choose, not buying that.

[Magua]

Burden of proficiency is exactly what it is that I'm doing with you and Minimum. However, it's far from stupid. Especially since I know you're as big a believer in meta as I am.

[Magua]

Shinori's not scum. There's really zero scum motivation for Shinori-scum to do anything that Shinori's done, so that has to be attributable to bad play and not scum intent.

Also, for double bonus points, if Shinori *is* scum then Shinori's going to get shot by the other scumteam because he's an investigative role. If Shinori is bulletproof scum, then we have missing kills, which will be great. But that's all kind of irrelevant, because Shinori is just a bad player, but not scum. Pandora's case is effectively, "Shinori's play doesn't make sense as town or scum" and then divines from this that Shinori's scum. No.

Scumhunter is just trolling at this point. But, this isn't Day 1, it's Day 4. Totally fine with my vote on him. Regfan should jump on board.

[Magua]

WHY IS MAGUA LURKING???

Because I've yet to engage in some emotional back-and-forth that has me F5'ing the page every minute.

Other stuff:

Pine replacing Jal is doubleplusgood.

Zdenek-townread is increased.

kortul-scumread is increased. Started off with a good question to MoS, but that's just where it stays. Question to MoS, question to Shinori. No reactions, no reads, no responses to analyze. But he's voting Scumhunter, so, it's all good.

Mastermind of Sin's stuff smells like busywork. Tammy already noted the bussing-bias with bvoigt. On the one hand, there's the "He posted his information even though it puts him in a scummy light" (from the Stannis results); on the other hand, there's the "He posted his information even though it puts him in a scummy light, and yet doesn't seem to care that his assumptions might be wrong." It seems like the sort of thing I like to do as scum -- collect data and present it in a framework that suits my purposes (Zdenek saw me do this in War in Heaven III). It looks impressive and frames the conversation.

Despite this, Scumhunter still needs some death.

[Magua]

Hey. Scumhunter.

Hey.

Hey.

Scumhunter.

Hey.

I'm lynching you.

Hey.

Thought you should know.

Well enjoy losing then. Lynching someone because they "deserve" it for not being active/helpful or whatever is retarded. I thought the point was to lynch to scum? There are a lot more useless people in the world than there are scumlords.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Magua]

Stop ignoring me, Magua.

The only thing I see from you is that you don't like that I'm not seeing Mina-town from your slot, and that you (unsurprisingly) think using a burden of proficiency argument on you is bunk.

Consider me disagreeing.

Magua, you say I'm trolling, but nay, you sir, are the one trolololing. A pity.

Relevant.

[Magua]

Why is it unsurprising that I don't think your basic argument would ever apply to Mina? Don't think you have any sort of meaningful Minameta that would suggest she'd be less cool as scum either and and yet you're telling me that you don't find it the least bit relevant that I'm claiming it manifestly isn't true?

Well, see, the thing is, I'm calling you scum. You saying, in effect, "You're wrong, we're not scum," is hardly game-changing.

So let's play a useful game. Do you think Scumhunter is scum?

Or, in a more generalized form, aside from 4nxiety, name three other scumreads.

[Magua]

So let's play a useful game. Do you think Scumhunter is scum?

Or, in a more generalized form, aside from 4nxiety, name three other scumreads.

[Magua]

what is your take on nacho's recent post?

Nacho thinks that Scumhunter is town and Minimum is town.

Nacho's wrong.

Not giving too much worry about whether this is Nacho being wrong because he's blind, or Nacho being wrong because he's scum, because we'll find out at the end of the Day tomorrow. If Day 6 starts with a confirmed town Nacho, then I'll start paying attention to what he's saying. 'Till then, not so much.

Magua, still think Scumbuck is town. Aside from anxijay, Jal and MoS are scum reads. Now respond to the actual things I've been saying.

The "things you've said" are that you don't think I should have a scumread on you. I do. There's really not much else to respond with. I'm certainly not expecting to convince you you're scum, and you're not going to convince me with what is essentially "lol ur wrong lrn2play".

Also, I've been thinking about how that godhand happened, mainly because every time I think abut the end of day one I want to lynch benmage for defending scum and really wish that he was godhanded. Anyway, he was the most agressive pusher of plum, which might indicate that he's scum trying to avoid being flipped. Aside from that once w start getting flips from the people those wagons were on, they could be useful. At the moment, not so much I think.

The thing is, Benmage is a terrible Godhand target because even if he's confirmed town, he's trouble. Plum/Nacho is a good Godhand target because if they're confirmed town, scum'll have to kill them.

There is no way I would've gone for a Benmage godhanding.

Kortul what about the fact that I saw tierce doing nothing? I know she could be a scum passive role but chances are more likely to have an active role.

Need to watch those assumptions.

DCLXVI (Davos Seaworth,

Goon

and a member of the Stannis Faction) was Chosen Day 1, Died Night 1.
bvoigt (Jon Connington,

Goon

and a member of the Aegon Faction) was Lynched Day 2.
Saporerint (Varys, *Informed

Goon

and member of the Aegon Faction) lost the trial by combat on Day 3.

[Magua]

Magua, you seem to have ignored the post in which I showed your reasoning on me boils down to nothing. In addition, you seem to be using the Goon number to assume that the majority (or a good share) of scum alive will have an active role/would have killed when I was tracked nowhere. I understand not taking tracker negatives as proof of alignment, but this doesn't seem to match the core of your reasoning. Are you suggesting I'm a goon who didn't act?

My thinking about you being a goon who didn't act is muddled. I'm shelving it for the time being.

My comment at Shinori was that, given all three scumflips so far have been goons, assuming that the mafia are more likely to be PRs is a bad assumption.

[Magua]

I'm just gonna make a post every time I look at this thread.

Not lynching Scumhunter before lynching some others.

With four days remaining, you need to start pushing if you actually want someone besides Scumhunter lynched.

[Magua]

Mastermind of Sin's replace out is either a towntell or a nulltell, but is certainly not a scumtell. I was reading it as a towntell (replace out due to actual anger at being misrepresented). Adjusting slightly after Zdenek saying he did this as scum in Consulmaker III, but I'm still not seeing it as a scumtell -- I'm seeing it as something that MoS does as an emotional response, making it a nulltell.

My vote on Scumhunter was a pressure vote, and he failed it (the only reaction was his OMGUS vote on me). I share with Scumhunter an aversion to reading games that I replace into, but I can pick up from where I replaced in without problem. So can Scumhunter. And he utterly failed to do that here.

More to the point, meta-wise, I expect Scumhunter-town would've started trolling for reactions, pushing a case on Regfan or I for the lulz.

Continue to have a scumread on this slot. Timeater replacing hasn't really changed anything. Immediate claim in first post just screams of having ISOd his predecessor, but then he denies having done that.

Stop looking at the attitude and look at the alignment. It doesn't make sense as scum.

It's more the complete lack of attachment at all.

Plum's 2546 is the only thing that I've really read from the Plums Yo Mamma slot that I actually agree with. I really don't like pretty much everything else that comes out of that slot.

Oh, no, I am gaining a townread on 4nxiety, so I agree with Plum/Nacho on that one as well. But the amount of force going into the Feysal lynch from this slot seems out of nowhere. What really gets me is that a lot of the posting references Feysal's posts previously, like Plum+Nacho have done their homework, but then they have later posts (eg, the back and forth with Regfan) where something is pointed out to them that makes it look like their original posts were actually just skims.

I'm actually thinking I'd prefer a feysal lynch instead of a scumhunter lynch at the moment. I'm kind of okay with either of them though.

Not Voting (2):

Shinori

, Pine

Cursory search of the thread shows scum have fakeclaims
Unvote: timeater
Vote: Feysal

Put this into context for me. The only people to have nameclaimed are timeater and Shinori. You say "scum have fakeclaims", but then unvote a person who claimed. There seems to be active dissonance between what you said and what you did.

Re: Pine, he doesn't like to play scum and it shows, but I've never seen him give up a slot just because it's scum (eg, his replace into a scumslot in AFFC. He was terrible, but he did it and didn't flake out). I read his replace out as alignment-null, and still have an overall townread of the slot from Jal.

Really, want timeater lynched. #1 super top pick.
Would settle for AurorusVox lynch.
Feysal lynch beats no lynch, but that's about it.

[Magua]

Could you point out the pointing out for me?
In this hydra, Plum is the thorough one and I am the passionate one, so it's entirely possible that I have missed things here and there but I feel like I've done the Feysal thing enough to not miss much.

So upon actually rereading your posts, I admit that I was wrong. I misread things that you were saying, which is half of what's been rubbing me the wrong way about them.

For instance, the big one I had noted down was 2568

This is a problem. The fact that she fits with both scumteams probably means she doesn't belong to either.
This goes for you too, Mossy.

And then I'd noted down your 2591:

Mos I see one pretty good possibility for scum in both of these groups.
And I know you wanna vote them.
But I'm not saying who it is because it's a secret.
(hint: Feysal)

Because I thought you were trying to have your cake and eat it, too, but rereading shows that I misinterpreted what you meant by "these groups" (I read it as "groups of scum" rather than "groups of voters").

Similarly in your exchange with Regfan, I was reading tone-of-voice stuff wrong and so getting the wrong assumptions from it.

Repondering what this means to me. Much more likely that Plum+Nacho are town. More amenable to Feysal-death.

---

Annoyed that there's been six pages since yesterday.

Quick review from my skim:

Zdenek v Thor makes Zdenek seem townier and Thor seem scummier. Especially given:

I'll still be amused to see anyone voting me actually explain how I'm scummy in any way at all.

God, I hate that shit.

Tammy is like 98.9% town.

Reorganizing my preferred lynches slightly to be timeater lynch > Feysal lynch > Thor lynch.

[Magua]

There was no case to begin with on you. There was a case on your slot. You knew this, but still posted "But why am *I* scummy?"

[Magua]

That's because your back and forth with Zdenek reads as incredibly fake. "Vote permalocked." It's like it's trying to jump up and down and scream "I'm a reaction test! Isn't that townie of me?"

[Magua]

God, this game.

Really sad at what happened to the Timeater wagon, because of Tim-spam.

[Magua]

Timeater lynch isn't happening today.

VOTE: Feysal

[Magua]

Magua

I'd consider it if the deadline were more than 4 hours away. Thor wagon isn't happening in the next 4 hours. Agree that the case on Feysal isn't that strong, but Feysal lynch is way above no lynch at this point.

[Magua]

<_<
>_>

That should've been a quote of all of CES' post, obv.

[Magua]

I would have felt a lot better about you if you'd stuck to your guns and said that you thought the case on Feysal is stronger for X reasons...considering you'd ranked him as more suspicious than Thor before. You voted Feysal when both wagons were very viable. Clearly deadline isn't the reason your vote is where it is.

Do elaborate what you think my reason for taking my vote off of Timeater is, then. Don't be coy.

As for Thor: Five more votes would not have appeared in four hours. Non-starter.

[Magua]

Thor was at 3 of 9 votes. I would've been 4. 5 more votes would not have appeared in four hours is the sum and totality of why I did not vote Thor.

[Magua]

Thor was at 3 of 9 votes. I would've been 4. 5 more votes would not have appeared in four hours is the sum and totality of why I did not vote Thor.

That was not the case when you voted for Feysal originally though. Why didn't you vote for Thor then?

Ha.

I wrote a whole screed about you not reading the same thread as everyone else and making shit up. Then I reviewed the last few pages, and realized I had voted Feysal last night, not this morning like I thought. My bad. (It was a busy night.)

I (probably) voted Feysal over Thor last night because I'm more convinced that Feysal is scum than Thor is scum (still nursing my Jal-townread) and the same general reason: Doubt that there'd be enough votes to get there by deadline.

[Magua]

Thank God Benmage got NKed.

Shinori outting his result is pretty much a death sentence on whoever he outs it on. Given pretty confirmed obvtown didn't get protected earlier (Shadow1psc, Dolorous Edd), it seems like holding up a big target -- regardless of whether they're town or scum, at least one scumteam will have an incentive to kill them.

So I'd say if Shinori has a townread on this person, no, don't say a damn thing. If you have a scumread on this person, yeah, go ahead and out them.

Feysal stuff: Flip never changed as far as I can remember. Going to reread Tierce/Feysal interactions either tonight or tomorrow, but off the cuff response is that Tierce would not bus someone who could perform a kill and who she could talk to in a scum QT with someone who couldn't kill and talk with, and that if she had known that Feysal was a traitor, she would've recruited him, and then he would've flipped as actual Stannis mafia instead of a Stannis traitor. (It is possible that Tierce could be another traitor herself, though.)

VOTE: Timeater

[Magua]

Will get to everything else about this game in 12-24 hours including explaining why Tierce isn't Stannis-Scum but two quick things. First Magua, Shinori said investigative role, not protective role, I think another investigative role for town is unlikely (I'd consider his role and Staegs as investigative) and given all the goon flips can see a scum rolecop sort of role being out there, think outting it is probably vital and needed (Also the 'out it if it's not on a town-read comment I don't follow since why would he investigate a town-read).

His role and Staeg's role are both investigative, but neither are particularly strong (given the non-Mason Frey flips either Staeg's was useless except as a possible fakeclaim buster or all Freys are Town and so Staeg was a very, very limited Cop), but this is a 28 player game. AFFC had at least two investigative roles (I was a Tracker and hasdgfas was Weak Doctor) both of which are stronger than what we're seeing here and that was with 4 less players. ASoS had one weaker investigative role (Voyeur) and one stronger (Rolecop), plus a JOAT who probably had some investigative ability, again at 24 players.

"lolscumrolecop" already killed Staeg. Not anxious to possibly repeat. Don't know how or why Shinori is picking his targets, so better safe than sorry.

[Magua]

Neither AFFC and ASoS had masons though and from what it looks like scum have less power in this then in the other two games. Not just that though but with a motivator in the game I'd say it's super unlikely for us to have a strong investigative role that can potentially get two investigations in a night.

ASoS had the brothers, which were a triangle confirmation. AFFC had Mina's role, an Innocent Child. And still those two games had stronger investigative roles than here.

Pretty certain that Tammy's motivator did something other than "You can action twice" because otherwise there's really no reason she wouldn't've used it on Shadow1psc N1.

Magua, explain to me how you don't and I want a summary of your updated reads.

I definitely do not see Timeater-town in the Timeater/Tammy interactions.

He comes in, scraps it up with Tammy, jumps on Feysal's wagon, continues to scrap with Tammy. The end. My read on his posting is that it starts off with predetermined force and energy ("Lyanna is scum!", but, saw him do this in MBtM), but as it goes on it's lazier, more questions, less anything besides his shift in stance to "Feysal is scum!")

Aggressiveness is a nulltell for Timeater, but it's what he's (not) doing with that aggressiveness that keeps him in my scumlist. Also, replaced Scumhunter.

---

Skimming

looking back over the choosing of DCLXVI, pretty confident that Feysal did not his teammates at least during Day 1, because there is no way, no how that Feyal, a traitor who cannot kill, and a player who does not like to play scum, chooses someone he knows is on his team and *can* kill over himself. That is, from Feysal-traitor-who-knows-his-teammates POV, it is better for him to be chosen and kill someone since a) he knows who all the Stannis are, b) he is less valuable to the case, c) he doesn't like playing scum anyway.

But Feysal jumps his choose vote from greenknight to DCL without a problem.

Best working theory is that Feysal could Neighborize into the Stannis faction (role name: "Specific Neighbouriser

to the

Stannis Faction"), and that him being "Informed" was in relation to some person or persons he knew weren't Stannis.

Also pretty certain that Stannis didn't know about Feysal's role, because that's how traitors work.

The best work I've seen so far in approaching this is kortul looking for the crumbs in conversation, which makes sense if Stannis knew that there was a traitor.

---

Other stuff.

Feysal giving Regfan his vote almost certainly means that Feysal doesn't think Regfan is actually on his team. If there's one thing I've learned from the Last Will games its that scum are incredibly loathe to do that sort of thing even if its permanent, and here for a single vote for a single Day....nah.

Dislike the clearing of BBmolla from the message. Regfan, eg, clears BBmolla as Stannis ("Would Stannis have information on Aegon scumteam?") but then clears him as Aegon because why would Aegon out that information -- with Feysal-traitor having already flipped being a perfect reason for why Aegon would out that information (which would be more indicative of BBmolla-traitor, but still).

Continue to be super glad that Benmage is dead.

I really like what I've read from kortul involving looking for connections from Feysal via crumbs in conversation. Do not believe in kortul-Stannis. kortul-Aegon still a possibility.

Continue to be sad at Tierce. Posts reek all over of defensiveness, coupled with zero scumreads. You can say, "Magua, this is multiball, even scum should have legitimate scumreads so that has to be null," but it's like Tierce is actively trying to appear as a non-threat to avoid NK and I don't like that one bit.

Upon continued reflection, still not really interested in lynching 4nxiety today, and not interested in lynching Thor if he can actually post some useful content that's not reaction-testing shit.

[Magua]

@Shinori

, do you think the person you have a result on is scum or town?

Don't care what you think other people think. Care about your read.

[Magua]

Although I approve of your investigation choice, why the fuck did you claim? No votes on you, no votes on Regfan. Not seeing the motivation.

@Pandora:

Do you think that Feysal knew his partners? If so, why did he choose DCLXVI over himself D1? If he didn't know his partners, why are you clearing Timeater as not-Stannis?

[Magua]

Are the hot desert winds frying your brains?

Yes, because I thought we were in King's Landing or some shit, not Dorne.

I asked *why* he claimed.

[Magua]

@Pandora:

Do you think that Feysal knew his partners? If so, why did he choose DCLXVI over himself D1? If he didn't know his partners, why are you clearing Timeater as not-Stannis?

[Magua]

Mass claim is a terrible idea.

There's 15 people, and we're at least 3 Days from lylo. Scum claim VT, mass claiming outs all town PRs, and then scum have a roadmap to kill all PRs long, long, long before lylo.

[Magua]

Mass claim is a terrible idea.

You think there's more town power than the

seven

dead town prs and the three, possibly four claimed ones?

If you do not think there's more town power, then you agree with me that a massclaim is pointless and scum will do exactly what I said.

[Magua]

@Pandora:

Try *reading* my actual post and then responding to it.

Magua: Don't traitors normally know who their partners are, but the partners don't know about the traitor? That's how it's worked in every game I've ever played with a traitor in it. Regardless of that Starbuck is town for being an easy target with bouts of suicide.

@Pandora:

Do you think that Feysal knew his partners? If so, why did he choose DCLXVI over himself D1? If he didn't know his partners, why are you clearing Timeater as not-Stannis?

[Magua]

I think scum will do what you said; yes. I also want them to do as much, I think if there's no more claimed power roles than 4nxiety and Pandora are most certainly legitimate. The reasoning behind the mass-claim being needed or not is to get a feel about the legitimacy of the claims. Lets flip this around though (I'm assuming you agree there's likely not much if no more power), what is the harm in mass-claiming? Right now the next 2 nights or so of night-kills are already a given for scum; Pandora, 4nxiety, Myself and potentially PlumNacho depending on how today ends. So what's the real downside?

ASoS had 8 town PRs

plus

the 3 town brothers out of a game of 24 -- that is almost 2/3 of the town (there were 6 VTs). ASoS *also* had a massclaim on D5 that (helped) ruined the game for town because it gave scum the roadmap of who to kill.

A Clash of Kings had 9 PRs out of 24 (and another town who was just a trigger) with 7 VTs.

A Feast for Crows is LOLIDUNNO because Faraday is too lazy to post his setup for that game, but off the top of my head there was Mina's IC, the tracker, the bodyguard, the roleblocker, the poisoner, the weak doctor, the neighbor, and I'm certain I'm forgetting at least 2.

So, yes, I think there are other town PRs out there.

I'm more onboard for the Tyrene without an 'r' lynch now.
Still want Zdenek dead too though.

Zdenek is town. Stop either being terrible or acting like you're terrible, whichever it is.

[Magua]

I think scum will do what you said; yes. I also want them to do as much, I think if there's no more claimed power roles than 4nxiety and Pandora are most certainly legitimate.

Which doesn't fucking help if they get killed toNight because lolonlyprs.

And if there are PRs left who claim, congratulations, you've just made the situation worse.

Lets flip this around though (I'm assuming you agree there's likely not much if no more power), what is the harm in mass-claiming? Right now the next 2 nights or so of night-kills are already a given for scum; Pandora, 4nxiety, Myself and potentially PlumNacho depending on how today ends. So what's the real downside?]

And I'll address this to Tierce, as well, because of her lolwhydontscumcrosskill and to Minimum because of their lolnomoreprsleft:

You massclaim and you guarantee that scum gets to shoot PRs. There's no guesswork there for them anymore -- there's no "Well, X is playing it really quiet and soft, he might be a PR, maybe we should risk it?" sort of thing. Look at Benmage. Why did Benmage die? Benmage ruins towns. What scum, in their right mind, would kill Benmage? Scum who thought he was a PR. You massclaim and you remove that. And that's the best case of everyone claiming VT.

And since all the scum are going to claim VT anyways, Tierce, you're removing any chance that they'll crosskill.

[Magua]

Jiminy Jesus H. Christ, I can't believe you nameclaimed in response to Feysal. What. The. Fuck.

[Magua]

Flavor talk about Jeyne Poole is crap and everyone involved in it (AurorusVox, Thor665) is bad and should feel bad. Well, AV should feel bad for a lot of reasons having to do with the last few pages, but whatev.

Benmage died because he was obvtown. That's likely all there is to it. Now we already have a lot of PR's claimed and clears, scum already have targets for at night, how you're not understanding that I don't get. By mass-claiming we're making this more information shared, more information to get reads of. Better chance of lynching scum. I still want mass-claim and you've got one post to convince me otherwise or else I'll either start a popcorn of a specified claiming order of. Also not speaking of claims, who else is scum other than Timeater?

On what planet was Benmage obvtown?

For scum targets, the part that I'm not seeing how *you* don't get is that the scum have targets, but they have uncertainty about what other targets may be available. Look at Shinori. He's a PR. He's way more obvtown than Benmage ever was. Yet, scum are killing other people (coughcoughBenmagecough) in preference to him. $20 says that that's because scum are trying to hit a bigger threat.

You massclaim, you remove all that guesswork out of whether scum should be shooting the claimed PRs or aiming for an unclaimed one.

---------

As for who is scum: working under the assumption that there's (at least) four more scum left:

Timeater is scum.

AurorusVox is either scum or a massive town hindrance. Either way needs to go. The entirety of his saporerint vote and the ensuing crapfest after that reads as entirely fake, and we're past the point where I really care about "I'm gonna do something incredibly stupid and see who calls me scummy for it and then call them scum" type deals.

Also, hate hate hate "Why would I lie about this?" in 3186.

Feeling more and more that BBmolla is scum. I agree with your defense that "Stannis wouldn't have that information," I disagree with "Aegon wouldn't out that information." If BBmolla is a traitor, outting that information makes *perfect* sense. Of course, him being a possible traitor but not really a possible mafia makes me not really care about lynching him at this point.

Don't have a good read on a fourth. Probably kortul via PoE more than actual scumminess. I'm developing more of a townread on Thor and Tierce from their posting toDay versus yesterDay.

[Magua]

Magua, I disagree because I do think Benmage was miles more obvtown than Shinori. I also don't think scum are aiming for 'bigger-threats' but are just removing players they consider unlynchable so they have potential lynchbait still alive when the game progresses.

Consider that even if you're right (you're not), Benmage-town destroys towns. To kill him, scum would have to have thought he's a PR.

@Pandora:

I'm hoping that my quote pyramiding here will actually get you to respond to my actual question, re: why is Timeater not Stannis.

@Pandora:

Try *reading* my actual post and then responding to it.

Magua: Don't traitors normally know who their partners are, but the partners don't know about the traitor? That's how it's worked in every game I've ever played with a traitor in it. Regardless of that Starbuck is town for being an easy target with bouts of suicide.

@Pandora:

Do you think that Feysal knew his partners? If so, why did he choose DCLXVI over himself D1? If he didn't know his partners, why are you clearing Timeater as not-Stannis?

[Magua]

Hey, AurorusVox, do you think it's a little odd that one of your townreads hasn't said anything all Day?

[Magua]

Pre-proddodge proddodge.

Originally read AV's claim as pointless. Had to go back and reread and process to see what the fuss with the unvoting was about. Odd for MoS to ask Shadow if he was possibly roleblocked, but the missing kill due to rolestoppage makes eight thousand percent more sense than bvoigt attempting to perform the kill.

Thank god Timeater's actually (probably) going to get lynched.

That's about the sum of my thoughts at this point. Going to be away for all of tomorrow, will catch up Sunday if Tim's not been lynched by then.

[Magua]

Holy Jesus Christ, the last three pages of Zdenek/Thor back-and-forth were just physically goddamn painful for me to read.

Zdenek, Aurorus, you both have said that you're willing to vote Timeater, so can you please just go ahead and do this? kthxbai.

[Magua]

Re: Thor/Zdenek, I'm reading Zdenek as town. Paranoid town and slightly tunneling town, but still town. This is different from the Zdenek I saw in AFFC and ASoS (both scum) who was much less committed and much more standoffish, and much more like the Zdenek I saw in War in Heaven III, who I (as scum) kept alive as a possible mislynch up until the game got eaten by tigers.

Thor reads as someone just stirring shit up. I can see town-Thor doing this easily because it's also something I like to do as town, especially when I don't want to read and just want to see reactions. The thing is, I could also see scum-Thor doing it because why not? It's easy to do. So I'm not reading Thor's play in this as out-and-out scummy like Minimum is, but I'm certainly not reading it as town.

[Magua]

30 second important overview:

Regfan has two votes for today. He's also name-cleared via a claimed JOAT result.

Plum's Yo Mama will have their alignment revealed at the end of today.

BBmolla has role information that the Aegon scumteam is split up. Feysal flipped Stannis traitor.

I await with bated breath your stream-of-consciousness catchup post. Can't tell you.

[Magua]

Feysal

has

claimed to have information on Jeyne Poole, but he's

dead

scum and no one cares.

FTFY

[Magua]

Did I miss something?

No. Looks like Plum or Nacho is just really bad at copy editing.

And yeah, AV's slot protected Shadow1psc, not bvoigt. May have protected Shadow *from* bvoigt, but whatev.

[Magua]

How did this get to the point of "let's not lynch Tim and let's lynch Thor?" I understand being bored with this Day, but seriously what?

Only reason for this Day to continue is so that Andrius can

be lazy and not ever

give us reads and that's really it. And then we lynch Timeater.

Thor, your whole "I'm going to stir the shit" shtick got old 20 pages ago. In any contest between you and Zdenek you're getting lynched; the only reason you're behind compared to the Zdenek wagon is that we're all voting Timeater. Now can you do me a solid and stop making these pages physically painful for me to read?

[Magua]

Thor, don't pull that "Oh, you want me to shut up?" crap. Read what I fucking said instead of what you want to strawman.

We get it. You think Zdenek is scum. Fun fact: enough people disagree with you that you're not getting a lynch. Continuing to go over and over and over isn't convincing people; it is, if anything, actively working against. You want to post reads, post reads, but for the love of Christ stop quote striping with Zdenek.

[Magua]

Me saying "You want to offer reads, offer reads" was in response to your terrible strawman where you're all "Oh, boo hoo hoo, no one wants to hear my reads."

As for your one question: you're bringing up something that Zdenek did that is bad for someone to do regardless of alignment. Got it.

[Magua]

Tell me, Thor, in your worldview, why Zdenek-scum did not jump on Timeater-town's wagon when he was at L-1.

[Magua]

It was not on L-1 today to the best of my awareness.

I can show you where he was encouraging the wagon while not voting it and sitting on AV while it was at L-2, if that excites you.

Spoiler alert: It doesn't.

Spoiler alert part two: 4nxiety's "omg here you say one thing and a mere 1000 posts later you say the opposite" is just terrible.

Spoiler alert the third: ---><--- close to not reading a single post from anyone but Andrius until this Day is over.

[Magua]

Me being prodded is as close to atrocious as this Day still going on as I can imagine. If Andrius flakes out of some reread and the last six or so days of this Day turn out to have been wasted for nothing, I'm going to TP his house.

[Magua]

STOP

[Magua]

HAMMERTIME

[Magua]

Also Cersei died but Regfan doesn't deserve a good scene b/c he's Regfan

This is why Eddard Stark is the best mod ever.

Don't understand what Minimum is saying or how it relates to AurorusVox. Target of the motivator being notified the next Night does nothing to say that Shadow1 was not rolestoppered Night 1, as the rolestopping would block Tammy's motivate of Shadow, and when he would be notified of a successful motivation doesn't really enter into it because it never went that far. Nothing ever indicated that Shadow did have a double action N1 or that he understood Tammy's crumb.

Giving game a think, probably later tonight.

[Magua]

So I haven't read the thread in the last two days. But I'm posting before Faraday can prod me again.

Wanted to read the thread (kind of), but Halloween and modding commitments both proved to be higher on the list.

[Magua]

Spoiler: VC's

VC 1.44 -

Feysal

and

DCLXVI

are tied

Dolorous Edd

(1) - Jal

Feysal

(9) -

Bvoigt

,

greenknight

,

Shinori

,

DCLXVI

,

Benmage

, Albert B. Rampage,

SnowStorm

,

Dolorous Edd

,

Saporerint

Minimum (2) -

StefanB

, Mockingjaye

Starbuck

(1) -

Starbuck

greenknight

(2) - Seraphim,

MagnaofIllusion

kortul (4) - Mastermind of Sin, BBmolla,

Staeg

,

Shadow1psc

DCLXVI

(9) - Tyene Sand,

Plessiezarus

, Minimum,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

Not Choosing (0): No one


VC 1.45 -

DCLXVI

takes the lead

Feysal

(8) -

Bvoigt

,

greenknight

,

Shinori

,

DCLXVI

,

Benmage

, Albert B. Rampage,

SnowStorm

,

Saporerint

Minimum (2) - Mockingjaye,

MagnaofIllusion

Starbuck

(1) -

Starbuck

greenknight

(1) - Seraphim
kortul (3) - Mastermind of Sin, BBmolla,

Shadow1psc

DCLXVI

(12) - Tyene Sand,

Plessiezarus

, Minimum,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

StefanB

Not Choosing (1): Jal

VC 1.46 - More

DCLXVI

support

Feysal

(8) -

Bvoigt

,

greenknight

,

Shinori

,

DCLXVI

,

Benmage

, Albert B. Rampage,

Saporerint

, Mastermind of Sin
Minimum (2) - Mockingjaye,

MagnaofIllusion

Starbuck

(1) -

Starbuck

greenknight

(1) - Seraphim
kortul (2) - BBmolla,

Shadow1psc

DCLXVI

(14) - Tyene Sand,

Plessiezarus

, Minimum,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

StefanB

,

SnowStorm

, BBmolla

Not Choosing (1): Jal

VC 1.47 -

DCLXVI

loses support

Feysal

(8) -

Bvoigt

,

greenknight

,

Shinori

,

DCLXVI

,

Benmage

, Albert B. Rampage,

Saporerint

, Mastermind of Sin
Minimum (2) - Mockingjaye,

MagnaofIllusion

Starbuck

(1) -

Starbuck

greenknight

(1) - Seraphim
kortul (1) -

Shadow1psc

DCLXVI

(12) - Tyene Sand,

Plessiezarus

,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

StefanB

,

SnowStorm

Not Choosing (3): Jal, Minimum, BBmolla

VC 1.54 -

DCLXVI

is chosen

Feysal

(7) -

greenknight

,

Shinori

,

Benmage

, Albert B. Rampage,

Saporerint

, Mastermind of Sin, Jal
Minimum (1) - Mockingjaye

Starbuck

(1) -

Starbuck

greenknight

(1) - Seraphim

DCLXVI

(15) - Tyene Sand,

Plessiezarus

,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

SnowStorm

,

Shadow1psc

,

bvoigt

,

DCLXVI

,

MagnaofIllusion

kortul (1)

StefanB

Not Choosing (2): Minimum, BBmolla

[Magua]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

That was meant to be a preview, not a post.

@Eddard:

I just met you
And this is crazy
But there's post 3716
So spoiler it maybe?

[Magua]

Going to be offline for the next few hours, and still working on the Aegon side of things (bvoigt being caught by Shadow1psc and saporerint slipping make gauging the intent of those on the wagons really hard to work with, but from the Stannis side:

- Assuming that Feysal didn't know his team because of the setup of him v DCLXVI for Choosing D1
- Kind of halfway assuming that Stannis didn't know him because loltraitor, but in the end it doesn't really matter.

Minimum and BBmolla jump onto the DCLXVI wagon to drive up to 14/15, but then jump off and aren't on it when it comes to completion. DCL is one of those who jumps on himself. Original passthrough thought was that one (or both) were Stannis trying to save DCLXVI, but on reread thinking no -- you either bus for the towncred entirely, or you push another wagon, whereas both Minimum and BBmolla jump off and do absolutely nothing. Given the 24-48 hours until deadline at the time, it's not like another wagon was going to magically form if they didn't push on one. So turning around on this one and thinking that both Minimum and BBmolla are not Stannis.

Next up you have Tyene, Pandora, and kortul. These are all more likely to be bus-for-towncred than Minimum or BBmolla, but I would just be outright flabbergasted if Tierce hardcore pushed a teammate from the very start of D1 in a multiscum game, so I don't think she's Stannis. Pandora and kortul are more likely.

Leaves 4nxiety, Thor, Zdenek, and AurorusVox. Well, there's a surprise.

Bleh. Going out now. Be back later.

Pedit: I feel uncomfortable in this modding environment.

[Magua]

I'm Tommen Baratheon.

Bow down to your king. BOW DOWN!

(Ignore that I'm VT.)

[Magua]

Minimum's role is hilarious.

Also don't think Minimum is scum of either flavor. Predicated a lot on having a lot of pressure both on DCLXVI and bvoigt D1. Pretty certain Mina wouldn't bus like that D1 in that situation; CES is maybe?, but very much leaning against it.

Very much feel that AurorusVox slot is scum from Mastermind of Sin's D1 play in the last 24 hours of the Day, but blargle, rolestopper claim fits everything so well I'm loathe to go after it.

Still feel Zdenek is town.

At this point, highest person I want to lynch is 4nxiety. Don't like mockingjaye's play from D1; there's jumps, especially around the StefanB wagon at the end of the Day, that don't feel right, especially given mockingjaye having been in previous Eddard Stark games and knowing how they go.

VOTE: 4nxiety

[Magua]

ITT Nacho sheeps me hard.

[Magua]

For the record, I think 4nxi3ty is significantly more likely to be telling the truth about his claim than BBmolla. BBmolla, have you ever read A Dance with Dragons?

What makes you think 4nxiety is telling the truth?

(For that matter, I'm not seeing how this relates to BBmolla at all, nor whether or not if he's read ADwD has to do with anything.)

[Magua]

Holy fuck people, if your argument begins with, "Well, in the flavor..." then it is a

bad argument

. Faraday gives out safeclaims. Woop de shit. It's either going to be a real claim or a safeclaim.

BBmolla's claim is weird, and I can't help but feel that he's leaving something out. But 4nxiety's has all the hallmarks of a scum that's claiming parts or pieces of their actual role.

[Magua]

Magua, is there a reason you never answered this:

-Magua, explain your current read on Thor. Explain your PREVIOUS read on Thor. Also, I don't think you ever explained why we dropped off your suspect list (or at least, why you stopped mentioning us as a potential scumread). Lastly, do you think it's fair to say that you aren't playing at all as protown or as engaged as you usually do, and that you're going through the motions? Do you believe that you're playing this game the way you would as scum in multiball?

I never answered it because I missed it. When are you referring to current/previous reads?

My previous read on Thor was town because he was shit-stirring and making trouble for himself in a situation where it seemed more advantageous for scum to, well, not do these things. He's continued essentially picking fights with just about everyone who was considered town or confirmed town.

Current read is mitigated more scummy because of his tunneling on Zdenek who is town, and the actual physically repulsion to the reading of the back and forth between him and Zdenek.

As for me, game's been a bit of a drag. I hate large games (20+ people) because the signal-to-noise ratio is much higher than I can stand, and I replaced in here because Faraday was begging and whining about the number of replacements and I wanted to cut him a break. So I never really started off and I've only picked up and gotten emotionally invested in specific parts, one of which was Timeater, which I was wrong about.

If I was scum, I'd play exactly like this except I would've shot the fuck out of Regfan the first goddamn chance I had because he can read me just about instantly (see: Strategy Mafia).

[Magua]

Paying attention to anything Feysal said after he was revealed is crap.

Unrelatedly:

UNVOTE: 4nxi3ty

Want kortul's opinion on 4nxi3ty before lynchy-times.

[Magua]

@4nxi3ty:

You say Zdenek + Tierce are Stannis. Why Stannis, specifically? Who do you think is Aegon?

[Magua]

Is this you saying you suspect Thor, or not?

If yes: can you explain to me why you haven't yet voted Thor? In fact, why have you barely mentioned him at all this gameday?
If no: what did you mean by the bolded?

Thor was going off on Zdenek. One of the points he was using to go off on Zdenek was that Zdenek was the second biggest wagon after Timeater.

I was gently pointing out to Thor that the reason Zdenek was the second biggest wagon was that all of the people who thought Zdenek were town were voting Timeater. If it truly came down to voting Thor or voting Zdenek, they'd vote Thor.

Thor is not my number one suspect, but if it came down to voting Thor or voting Zdenek, I'd vote Thor.

[Magua]

I can't tell you how relieved I am.

[Magua]

@AurorusVox:

You think kortul is scum. How come you're not voting him?

If you think 4nxi3ty is town, how come you're not saying anything about his wagon?

[Magua]

As I explained, his claim is wonky and so I will hammer him.

I'm blind. Where do you explain this? The last thing I see from you on 4nxi3ty is here where you call him town.

[Magua]

Taking three more days to lynch 4nxi3ty is annoying, but even with an 4nxi3ty-scumflip, tomorrow's quite likely going to be a massive Thor/Zdenek clusterfuck, and I want a much better handle on kortul before that happens.

[Magua]

Thor has convinced me Plums Yo Mamma is scum.

[Magua]

Minimum claimed a Day ability at the start of the Day.

[Magua]

I keep looking for the popcorn picture but I can't find it. So the current forecast is Anxiety, Thor and Zdenek as scum with some random guy thrown in as a fourth chaser? (hint it's kortul). Probably too easy. It's irritating to be waiting for the scum before lynching, mostly because there's no chance of a wagon his way right now.

Do you think Thor and Zdenek are teammates, or opposing teams? Which one do you think is on a team with 4nxi3ty?

[Magua]

kortul's posts about 4nxi3ty suck.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

Pandora thinking that Thor + Zdenek can be a team is just downright bizarre.

[Magua]

@Minimum, kortul:

Do you think Thor is Aegon or Stannis?

[Magua]

VOTE: kortul

Trying to look town without actually being useful. 3930 is nonsensical if kortul actually read Minimum's claim *at all* (3761 claims

Paranoid

Daycop *and* shows a guilty on a dead flipped Town and two guilties on still living players, 3766 should easily answer any question about Minimum being sane)

[Magua]

Right, I'd missed the "now" because my mind can only boggle so much.

Minimum, you think that kortul believes that you have a role that is Paranoid Daycop, that has guilties on dead town and is confirmed by the mod to return a guilty regardless of godfather, etc, etc, etc, *and* that there's a possibility that you might be sane *now*?

This is kortul we're talking about. kortul, like Feysal, has a very strong intellectual/logical bent to his posts. This isn't that. It's just filler.

[Magua]

Thor, the amount of effort you're giving at defending yourself is all out of proportion to the amount of effort you seem to be giving to finding scum. Especially given that I think Zdenek is town and am pretty much righting off every single thing you're saying about him, and I'm entirely ignoring you repeating how you can't be scum and there's no case etc etc.

Maybe you can help me help you and answer these questions:

1. Really glad you find kortul scummy. Why did you unvote?
2. Who do you think is scum besides Zdenek and kortul?

[Magua]

It has to do with the situation that I'm annoyed that 90% of what you posted yesterday and like 80% of what you've psoted today is "What's the case there's no case" and "you're wrong on my meta", and half of what's been left over from that has been "zdenek is scum guiz" and the overall impression I have of you is being obstructionist more than helpful.

[Magua]

The sum entirety of my case (that is, the reasons I would vote you) at this point are that your posts are so much more defensive in nature than actual scumhunting, and you've tunneled on Zdenek-who-I-read-as-town.

The amount of content you have that is not concerned with either of these two topics is really tiny.

[Magua]

Hey.

Thor.

I'm going to vote you the next time you give a reply that includes "where's the case there's no case."

Deadly goddamn serious.

[Magua]

And Magua attack on my request to Minimum is ridiculous. If you are town, you already know the result.

That is

exactly

what makes your question to Minimum fluff and worthless. Right there. In a nutshell.

And if you talk about logic, look at the night kills. If i were scum, why would i want Tyene dead, who was one of the few who sad nothing bad about me, or Plum/Nacho, who considered Thor scum? Killing someone like Pandora or Av, who are not likely to be lynched and who suspected me would be more logical.

Why do you concentrate on Tyene, specifically, and ignore Plums Yo Momma?

I am not Pandora, and do not have a clear picture of who is who, therefore have to spend the time we have to try and find some clues - interactions of Mocking/4nx, reread of Thor, reread of Zdenek (less priority now). But the real life is more important, so this goes slow and won't happen right now. Those who are bored, know everything, don't have ideas what to research or want a speed lynch, go ahead - if you are town, acting without thinking is sure way to lose a game, and if you are scum, i hope you will expose yourself in process and will be crosskilled.

Right. I thought this yesterday about you, specifically, because I wanted your input in the 4nxi3ty lynch. Your resulting post was, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Pretty sure 4nxi3ty really had a rolecop on Regfan," which, let me tell you, was awesome to read and totally opened new avenues of thought to me. Then you ended it with "Eh, he's like maybe a little town, I guess, gaiz?" while totally ignoring the actual wagon on 4nxi3ty -- neither saying it was scum motivated or trying to get anyone off of it, despite it containing confirmed-town-Plum/Nacho.

[Magua]

No, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm saying your overdefensiveness is only useful to scum and is not useful to town. So if you're town you should goddamn stop with it.

Yes, I missed where kortul said Plum/Nacho because I was already angry over the attempted "If I was scum why would I do X?" defense he had started with Tierce.

[Magua]

And i gave my thoughts on 4nx lynch, and my view on his claim. You had a week to see it, and i had like half an hour in the evening for update and thoughts. And of course wagon wasn't scum motivated, since all my town reads were on it. That's why i asked for input after that, to see if i missed something, and only Nacho responded with actual content. Was it so hard to answer like he did? Do you want to discuss things, or snap at anything that doesn't fit your picture of reality?

You didn't give thoughts on 4nxi3ty, or the wagon. You gave thoughts on his name-cop usage, and concluded from that that you thought he was weak-town. Nothing about his play, or anything other than the namecop usage.

And you seem to not understand why I waited to ask your opinion. It wasn't because I wanted to convince you. I could give two shits about convincing you. Didn't need your vote. You giving an entirely superficial opinion and then asking, essentially, to be convinced is extremely scummy.

[Magua]

I DON'T CARE IF IT'S YOUR GODDAMN META. IT'S GODDAMN USELESS AND ANNOYING. ANYONE EVEN A QUARTER OF THE WAY CONFIDENT IS GOING TO SAY THEY'RE NOT SCUM. I MOTHERFUCKING GET IT.

It's antitown as fuck. Stop being antitown as fuck. If your defense is "but I'm always antitown as fuck," I will personally throttle you. Jesus.

[Magua]

Real simple: I don't give two shits about any argument you make about why you're town. I only give shits about arguments you make about why

other people

are town or scum. And pretty much every post you made today is in the first group when it should really be in the second group.

For fuck's sake, I'm pretty certain that kortul is scum, but the problem is, that even if kortul is lynched and flips scum, this whole shitstorm regarding you is going to reoccur tomorrow, and I'd really, really, really, really, really rather it doesn't.

[Magua]

Hey, Thor, do you think (kortul, Zdenek, Minimum) is all scum?

[Magua]

Prodded. Reading later.

[Magua]

Oh, look. I can hammer Thor.

Not going to hammer Thor.

@Zdenek:

Who do you think is scum besides Thor?

[Magua]

Thor, I'mma lynch you at deadline, so how about helping me get kortul lynched before that has to happen?

[Magua]

I have a problem with you buying that kortul is town.

You say that you liked what Zdenek said about kortul and that made you re-evaluate kortul as town. But while Zdenek goes on about how kortul likely isn't Aegon, his "kortul isn't Stannis" argument is limited to "Stannis wouldn't vote Thor" and that's it. Coming from Zdenek-who-is-your-biggest-scumread, your reversal in response to this is...strange.

Secondly, although I'm a huge fan of looking back to D1 with a whole bunch of flips to see what's what, I've had to abandon that here because that PoE leads to either you being the only Stannis, or you+Zdenek being Stannis, and both of those are lolwtf (BBmolla and AurorusVox seem pretty clear non-Stannis due to role, Minimum, Pandora and kortul all spent the majority of D1 on the DCLXVI choose wagon, leaves you and Zdenek).

So, again, basing kortul-defense on D1 play that PoEs out too many suspects seems...less than useful.

[Magua]

Only have phone access now. Hopefully full access tomorrow.

[Magua]

Did you finish this research?

What prompted you to change your opinion [of 4nxi3ty]?

About 1,400 posts and flips helping to narrow down the PoE.

Or, to put it another way, my opinion of mockingjaye never really changed overly much (my end reasons for voting 4nxi3ty are very similar to my original reasons), but with Scumhunter/Timeater dead and a gradual townread shift onto Tyene Sand, 4nxi3ty simply became my strongest suspect.

Also, what is your read of Pandora? You mentioned him as null at the beginning, and gave no indications about the read changes, unlike on other players.

Vague town. Strong position on DCLXVI-choose wagon D1 and strong position on bvoigt lynch wagon D1 points town; Quilford would never bus like that; Shadoweh might. Still, contribution to the thread has been minimal, and largely pointless.

Again, if you are town, try to look at this from non-Magua point of view. I don't remember mod saying anything about you being an innocent child, so why not check, even if the chances are really small? All it takes is good will and one PM. It doesn't use any resources that are needed elsewhere. Do you see this day full of life and discussions, or do i somehow distract Minimum from anything?

Useless questions are what scum do to "show" they're doing something. Takes no effort, produces no result. Given this post:

And Plum's Yo Mamma, no, we're not a godfather checker. We're...well, exactly what it says on the tin. I asked Faraday what result we'd get on a Godfather. Guilty. I asked Faraday what I'd get on a miller. Guilty.

Our PM says that results are "technically" in the form "Guilty," "Innocent," or "No Result." But I asked if there was any conceivable way we could get an innocent result. He said no.

Your question's just timewasting. It's not that timewasting is a terrible sin that can't be overcome. It's that it's so

pointless

. Like, the only reason I can conceive of for doing it is to look like you're doing something. The same thing with you voting 4nxi3ty. You ask some questions which are already answered in the thread, wait until you get the answer which is just a repeat of what's in the thread, and then vote. It all feels so fake.

---

Revisiting D1 and not giving in to my PoE paranoia:

Stannis

DCLXVI choose wagon goes through. Choose wagon is preferable to Stannis than a lynch wagon, but small team in Large Theme D1? Probably not. At the very least, would expect Stannis to be pressuring Feysal-choose wagon over DCLXVI's. What does that give us?

#1326
DLCXVI (14) -

Tyene Sand

,

Plessiezarus

, Minimum,

Regfan

, Pandora,

Feysal

,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

StefanB

,

SnowStorm

, BBmolla

#1471
DLCXVI (15) -

Tyene Sand

,

Plessiezarus

,

Regfan

, Pandora, Feysal,

Lyanna Stark

, Kortul,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Staeg

,

Dolorous Edd

,

SnowStorm

,

Shadow1psc

,

bvoigt

,

DCLXVI

,

MagnaofIllusion

Minimum and BBmolla *both* have a jump off that is hugely meh, but neither of them jump off and actually do anything; they don't push Feysal choose wagon at all, so, meh meh. I would expect given Minimum-Stannis or BBmolla-Stannis that they would stay on for the cred rather than have DCLXVI take their spot. Again, meh, meh.

Discounting Pandora, kortul, BBmolla (also for role claiming), Minimum. Minimum is the weakest of these.

Leaves Thor (as Jal, choosing Feysal), Zdenek (as Seraphim, off on his lonesome on the greenknight wagon), and AurorusVox (as Mastermind of Sin, pushing Feysal wagon).

AV and Thor are the ones who's vote in this looks most scum motivated, but AV's claimed a role that is essentially saying "I'm not Aegon"; as Stannis, that would be a wee bit suicidal.

Hooray, I've PoE'd it down to Thor or Thor+Zdenek. I've already stated why that makes me think I'm totally wrong, but, this is paranoia-free-zone.

Aegon

Applying the same to the bvoigt lynch wagon.

#1465
bvoigt (12) -

greenknight

,

SnowStorm

, Pandora, Seraphim,

Plessiezarus

,

MagnaofIllusion

,

Plums Yo Mamma

,

Dolorous Edd

,

Shinori

,

Feysal

,

StefanB

, Mastermind of Sin

Discounting Pandora (again), Zdenek, AurorusVox.

Leaves Thor (Jal is voting no one the entire time), Minimum (also not voting anyone), BBmolla (not voting bvoigt, but is voting saporerint), and kortul (voting StefanB).

PoE leaves Thor, Minimum, or kortul.

---

At this point, I'm just tired of this Day. kortul remains my strongest scumread-by-play, though he only makes sense as Aegon and not as Stannis. I would heavily expect Thor-scum to try to be not actively antagonizing people, so I'm very meh on this lynch. But deadline is 36 hours so whatever.

I don't think AV is scum, as much as I want him to be, I don't think BBmolla is scum because I don't think he's Stannis by role and I don't think he's Aegon by play, and I don't think Zdenek or Pandora are scum by play.

So yeah.

[Magua]

If I were scum from either team, I'd be trying to crosskill the other team, so would've shot kortul. BBmolla-kill doesn't really make sense for either team to have killed. But lolwtf-Benmage kill, so, whatever. Possible different plan would be if one team had definite information on who was on the other team and was confident they could secure a lynch.

Pretty much assured that the game is not in a 2:2:2 state, but...even if it is, I'll kingmaker the shit out of that. Assuming 2:1:3, we need to lynch Stannis today. Don't think AurorusVox is Stannis (possible he's Aegon). If AV *is* Stannis and is lying about actually having rolestopped Shadow (since there is literally zero reason for scum to have actually done that), Aegon should've shot the fuck out of him last Night. Since that didn't happen, have to assume he's either Town or Aegon, and in either case, is a bad lynch.

Currently trying to decide if I want to completely abdicate free will and believe Thor on either kortul-town or Zdenek-scum. Too tired to have a definite answer for now.

[Magua]

@Magua, why would you kill only me at night, if you think that i make sense only as Aegon scum? And why do you think that there is zero reason for MoS rolestopping Shadow - you do not believe that grounds for a good claim is more important than holding 1 shot protection trying to guess when your partner (if he is even alive) will be shot at night in the large game?

The question was "who would I shoot if I were scum." If I were scum, I'd be trying to crosskill. You're (eh, were) my strongest scumread.

As for MoS-Stannis rolestopping Shadow, I do not believe that a scum 1-shot rolestopper would say, "Rather than use this to protect my buddy / stop an investigation on my buddy, etc, I'm going to use it on a town investigative role to ensure they don't die." If Aurorus is scum, it makes way more sense for it to be Aegon where it's, "I know my buddy tried to kill Shadow but got roleblocked, so I can claim to be the one who blocked the kill."

[Magua]

The thing is, there's really only two possibilities for the missing kill N1:

- BBmolla tries to kill, but is roleblocked by Shadow1psc.
- A different Aegon tries to kill Shadow1psc, but is rolestopped by MoS.

I find the first situation to just not be very likely, given that Shadow outright claimed D1, and had already expressed suspicion of BBmolla. It just makes so much more sense that the kill was blocked because Shadow was protected then to say that the most suspected Aegon player was sent to do the kill on the claimed roleblocker. The first situation is *possible*, I just don't see it as likely, and if it is true, then it'd be because AV was BBmolla's partner, not opposition.

[Magua]

Being prodded over the weekend sucks. Posting to get Faraday off my back. Will read tonight.

[Magua]

Guess you somehow mixed bvoight and BBmola in your head (and in the post).

Yes, stupid b-names.

Anyways. Disbelieve that the teams are 5 Aegon to 3 Stannis (especially with 1 of those Stannis being a traitor). If it's 5 Aegon/4 Stannis then game is already lollerskates, so I'm entirely ignoring that because why not? Leaves 4:4.

Only interested in lynching Stannis. If it's 4:4 (that is, 1 Aegon and 2 Stannis left) lynching Aegon is a loss. If it's 5:4 (2 Aegon/2 Stannis left) then can't win anyway, so will just stick to it.

I don't think that AurorusVox is Stannis. Could possibly be Aegon, don't actually care. Not lynching him.

Zdenek is the most likely to be Stannis, from D1 votes. Huge townread on him from previous, though, makes me reticent.

kortul is meh. Continues to ask pointless questions. Rethinking scumread based on kills; BBmolla dying alone means either an unsubmitted kill or a double kill, and I sort of have to believe that kortul-scum of either alignment would kill me over BBmolla regardless.

Pandora is meh; setup spec with kortul that's pointless, no lynch idea is meh, weak read on Zdenek, just seems so empty.

Minimum is entirely too opportunistic in the last few two pages (eg, inactivity accusation directed at AurorusVox when it's trivial to check), just seems to be mudslinging in general.

Gut feel at the moment is that Stannis is Zdenek + Minimum with Minimum being the busser D1, Aegon is AurorusVox. Want to vote Zdenek.

[Magua]

And I did check. He may not have stopped existing altogether but I can see he was seriously inactive (note also that the double kill also makes somewhat more sense if you assume it's coming from an inactive AV just sending in a quick kill considering Thor was pushing him fairly recently). Don't really see how it's supposed to be opportunistic when I'm accusing him of being Aegon (and as scum it would be incredibly obvious to me that it would point to him being Aegon).

I had read your 4175 without fully processing your 4183, and thought that you were going around trying to push AV-Stannis and thus push for a lynch on him.

The more I think about it, the more I'm really not interested in either an AV or a kortul lynch today; they're either town or Aegon and in either case a bad lynch. Zdenek > Minimum > Pandora.

[Magua]

Magua, is the only that you want to vote me day one voting patterns?
Are there any votes from my slot that you think are scummy or is you suspicion of me based solely on you doubting that Minimum is Stannis because they unvoted DCL?

The suspicion of you is that Zdenek-not-Stannis means either:
1. AurorusVox is Stannis, or
2. DCLXVI was being bussed by the entirety of his team D1 in a Large Theme, or
3. There's only one Stannis left (which would also make #2 true)

I don't find any of those likely. So you're PoE. I don't think that the DCL votes on D1 clear Pandora/kortul/Minimum (because I find it more likely that one of them was bussing than AV is Stannis); I simply find it incredibly unlikely that an entire team powerbussed DCLXVI over the equally likely Feysal.

Am completely fucked over for all my classes, so I probably won't do any rereads tonight, but random scattered questions/points:

1) Magua, why do you personally think that kortul and AV aren't Stannis? I know why

I

think they probably aren't (although I'd still like to do some ISOs to make sure no one else fits best), but your post had nothing whatsoever to do with them. Also, there's not a single player that you think looks independently

town

? Just "meh" at best?

AV I went over with kortul in 4166/4168 (replace BBmolla with bvoigt in 4168). If he's scum, he makes more sense to me as bvoigt-buddy.

As for kortul: My ego compels me to believe that kortul-Stannis would find it more advantageous to shoot me than to shoot BBmolla. Or, in more general, BBmolla was killed by both teams in preference to me, and fuck that noise, BBmolla was barely playing. Leads me to believe that my thoughts D7 were off-base.

(I remember I had questions about your stance on Thor yesterday, since you'd called him a suspect earlier but were behaving as though you

knew

he was town...but since you're already pretty much confirmed scum from my PoV, I can't really be bothered. Honestly, the biggest point in your defence is that my having a scumread on someone means that player is town without a doubt.)

This is an example of the mudslinging that I'm seeing in your posts. Not the "confirmed scum" bit, but the "as though you knew he was town" bit. It's subtle, but what sets it off is that it doesn't make sense in a multiscum game, you should know it doesn't make sense in a multiscum game, and yet you throw it out anyway.

By the way, I realized something: if you believe that Feysal was telling the truth about being a neighbourizer to Jeyne Poole (CES doesn't, but I could see Feysal thinking it couldn't hurt), then Zdenek is either Stannis or town. Zdenek can only be Aegon if Jeyne Poole is his fakeclaim and Feysal was lying. I think Feysal would be more likely to tell the truth if Jeyne Poole was town than Stannis, though. (And come to think of it, wouldn't he be more likely to neighbourize the Stannis faction, since Reek in the books escapes with Jeyne to meet Stannis's army...in which case...he doesn't know who his teammates are...*sobs*)

I hadn't thought about that, but looking back, I distinctly remember Zdenek's claim in response to Feysal didn't make sense as to why he would do it in response to something confirmed scum said. Makes a lot more sense as some sort of claim gambit.

[Magua]

Then it seemed like you were talking to Thor as though you didn't want him lynched but it was such a shame that his antitown behaviour was distracting everyone from the real scum.

That's because I didn't want him lynched D7. I wasn't going around calling him confirmed obvtown, but it's pretty clear that I wanted kortul lynched in preference to Thor.

I see your point on AV; can you explain why kortul wouldn't kill you if he was Aegon (as opposed to Stannis)?

Magua, since I know you've been around, could you explain why you didn't think kortul would kill you if he was Aegon?

I would expect kortul-Aegon to kill me, but since I don't really care about whether its kortul-town or kortul-Aegon at the moment at all, it's not gotten a lot of thought cycles.

[Magua]

Ffs.

[Magua]

1) When you said that you'd have played the same way as scum

except

you would have killed Regfan (and when you said you would have killed kortul last night)...that was the truth to the letter, wasn't it? Because you're playing EXACTLY like you would as scum...but you're not part of the main alliance, and so you

can't

kill?

Regfan can read me like a book. See Strategy Mafia. It's brutal when I'm scum. But here I'm town and if you can't (or, I suppose, won't) trust anything else about me, then you should trust Reg's read on me. Because I only have the slightest suspicion that you will look at D6 and be like "lolMaguapowerbussed4nxi3ty"

Also, and this is probably key, you can't *actually* think be town and think that I'm a non-killing Aegon, because if you did, game would be (at least) 2:2:2.

2) On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do you

hate

ABR right now:

Depends on what I should hate him for. If it's for posting

a joke

useless shit before replacing out that gives you ammunition to attack, I hate him quite a bit. If it's for claiming scum, then I can't hate him at all because that's not what he did. See also Tierce and "traitorous scum" earlier in this game.

What sort of claim gambit are you thinking of?

Something to try and confirm your role as Jeyne Pool. It's just boggling that Feysal-flipped-scum would say "I can neighborize Jeyne Poole!" and you appear and say, for no reason that I can see, "I'm Jeyne Poole!" and then Feysal says *nothing else* afterwards even though he'd been counting his posts up until that point. Unsure of what mechanics might prompt you to do that, but the behavior from both you and him on that is bizarre.

---

Thor's going to be insufferable if it turns out Zdenek is scum. Still:
VOTE: Zdenek

[Magua]

I'm not voting you because of the Feysal thing. I'm voting you because I literally cannot conceive of a 2-man Stannis team that does not contain you.

[Magua]

@AurorusVox:

How do you go from believing that I'm Aegon in 4245 to me being Stannis with Pandora in 2452?

Minimum's not Stannis. Minimum-Stannis who sees ABR's posts and thinks that it's actually a claim would not say it, because Stannis wants Aegon lynched, and actively labelling me Aegon precludes that from happening. Minimum-Stannis in this case would build up a case on me being Stannis and try to get me lynched. So.

Don't think AV is Stannis because of role.

Again with Zdenek/Pandora/kortul.

Maintain that Zdenek is the most likely of the three to be Stannis.

[Magua]

Why not

Zoidberg

Zdenek?

[Magua]

I'm amused at the position that I'm in, but, regardless of whether you think I'm town or you think

ABR's a derp

I'm Aegon, you would agree that I'm trying to lynch Stannis.

So how is Zdenek-scum if you think that I'm town, but Zdenek is not scum if you think that I'm Aegon?

[Magua]

@Minimum:

How is AurorusVox Stannis?

[Magua]

<_<
>_>

[Magua]

Kortul why are you ruling out a Minimum-Magua pair?

LOL

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Magua]

*WHERE THE FUCK WERE THE CROSSKILLS?????

Too many obvtown players up until the very end. I didn't make any effort to try to kill Aegon until...er...N8?...and that was halfhearted (we shot BBmolla). No clue how Aegon were picking their kills. I assume AurorusVox tried to shoot me last Night?

Was convinced through most of D9 that Minimum was the final Aegon; it was AurorusVox's incredibly quick switch from "Magua is town" to "Magua is Aegon" to "Magua is Stannis" that made me realize he had to be scum, but the lynch on Zdenek came too quick for me to react to (I was telling Pandora I'd hammer at will if he got to L-1 in the thread, but I was worried about how I'd shift my position). Rolestopping Shadow1psc was such an incredibly bad move for them I'm still a little amazed to see that it was what they really did; also, sending bvoigt to do the kill. Lulz.

No problem with releasing the Stannis QT, but I'll wait on Shadoweh for that.

Everyone calling Pandora town was great, because it allowed me to super coast on that slot, which was a godsend. Minimum pulling up ABR's posts D9 and calling me Aegon was lulz for me out of game (I had never actually read ABR's posts after replacing in, so my reaction was more or less genuine). I was worried that it would keep Aegon from shooting me if we didn't lynch 'em.

Also: I really hate being scum. Seriously.

[Magua]

I did not get shot up through N9 (Role PM specifically said I'd be informed if I was shot, and we specifically asked if I had been shot N8).

[Magua]

No problem with releasing the Stannis QT, but I'll wait on Shadoweh for that.

It was released in the role PMs?

Obviously then I'm more of a gentleman than Faraday then.

=P

[Magua]

We killed Regfan because 4nxi3ty had cleared him more than any other reason.

[Magua]

Woooo, thanks Mina!

[Magua]

I do like

Stannis

Magua best, it's true.

For the fact, yes.