Abarat: Days of Magic, Nights of War Mafia (Endgame)

[Bella]

vote: MagnaofIllusion

.

[Bella]

VOTE: Bella

By far the worst reaction to my revelation. Sorry but the information is out there and wagoning me isn’t going to make it go away. Sucks for you!

I'm pretty sure I'd have to be unaware that you're an ill-informed moron for that post to qualify as a "revelation".

[Bella]

I'm pretty sure I'd have to be unaware that you're an ill-informed moron for that post to qualify as a "revelation".

Well aside from the awkward construction and pointless insults ...

The Wisdom of the Spires flows through my mind. I'm hardly "ill-informed". At least one of you is scum. At this point I think it is you ...

That sounds par for the course. I'll be sure to remember this when you're proven wrong.

(Fwiw, I didn't even read that part of your post on account of noticing the insult you aimed at me. Nice try, though.)

[Bella]

Preview Edit -

Bella saying you will flake and that Glork is a huge upgrade over you to the thread (you can't even begin to argue this) isn't an insult but a statement of fact.

It really isn't.

[Bella]

BELLA, READ THIS! BELOW HERE!

Since you didn't fully read the post that you voted MagnaofIllusion for, I'm assuming you'll skim this otherwise.

It was more a case of his comment catching my eye and making me mad before I read the post, but whatever.

That sounds par for the course. I'll be sure to remember this when you're proven wrong.

(Fwiw, I didn't even read that part of your post on account of noticing the insult you aimed at me. Nice try, though.)

i. Why did you vote for MagnaofIllusion in your first post?

It's MagnaofIllusion. Beyond someone claiming scum and posting their scum role PM, I'm not sure there are circumstances under which I wouldn't put a vote on him first. Maybe if he was somehow at L-1, but I'd really have to resist the urge to hammer him and claim it was an accident.

ii. You said before that you voted him without even seeing MoI's claim. Have you read it yet? What do you think?

I would lean towards it possibly being a legitimate claim in that it seems an odd gambit to pull off. The fact that he slipped between saying at least one of those people is scum and saying at least one of them isn't Day-aligned would support it being legitimate - I'd think if he was lying he'd be more rigid with the story he's telling. Then again, I wouldn't put it past him to try it and the list of people involved correlates with people he'd try and get rid of anyway, so I'm open to that possibility.

iii. Are you voting MagnaofIllusion because you don't like him, or do you actually believe that he's scum? The part where you taunt him for being wrong seems to imply you think he's misguided town.

I don't think there's enough data available to conclusively call anyone scum yet. He's a good person to remove from the game, though, and besides that, he really, really bugs me.

iv. Do you have any thoughts on people in the game who

aren't

MagnaofIllusion?

Sure.

erm.... so what? I wasn't asking for their flavor knowledge of their pm, but rather of the arabat book/this game in general. What I want to know, exactly, is who the probable scum team is from an informed flavor standpoint, and who the good guys are.

And you don't think there would be fakeclaims provided?

Also really not big on the 1-of-3 deal with MoI, feels way too gambity on my part considering all 3 are players he'd openly prefer to policy lynch on an account of simply not liking them.

Based on this interaction, I'd be willing to state that Magister Ludi is almost certainly town, and AGar appears much less so, for his attack and vote on ML and his strong pushing of his opinion on MoI's claim here and in other posts.

quote tags fixed. -hito

[Bella]

Post 159 is a perfect example of why I can’t wait for Bella to flake and Glork upgrading the slot.

Prepare for a long wait.

[Bella]

Prepare for a long wait.

You don’t flake

as scum

?

Or is this prepping us for the length of time it will take for you to do something other than whine petulantly and active lurk?

I fixed that for you. I do lurk a fair bit, though. So sue me.

The odds that more than 1 of those players are scum (and thus Mod handed me effectively two guilties pre-game) is small. Furthermore the information is still valid on Day 2 and beyond. No reason to run through the list simply because it exists. Now if two of those players flip Day then I’m basically locked in to vote the last. But until that point I’m going to scum-hunt as usual. There are other scum out there besides the 1 in 3.

Oh hey, reasonable thoughts from MoI. What a rare occurance.

there's a lot of your thoughts and reads that i can understand and agree with. this is not one of them. her posts haven't been highly content included(involved? fuck i can't think properly right now) at all and she's just been A) complaining/responding to insults and B) responding to Minas questions and her answers aren't that alignment related, i believe she'd vote moi out of hate regardless of her alignment, that doesn't make her town and her saying that doesn't make her town. i think you've really gone full-confirmation bias on her and it needs to stop. also i'm not voting her? since i don't have a vote, we share one and you're controlling it.

This is a problem that arises when a player decides it's cool to throw baseless insults at people whenever he mentions their names. It's hard not to react angrily and appear scummy when someone is so dedicated to baiting you into it.

Okay, so: I have not seen RC-scum, but I've seen RC-town play exactly like this and get mislynched. What I should have said is that he's not scum for the reasons everyone's mentioning (the typo, the laziness)

This is a read that I endorse.

where have i waffled? aside from thinking shinori is scum and then doubting my read cuz i actually think about my votes, i can't think of anywhere else

facts is, i'm doubtful about shinori because of something in the way he responded to me, would have to re-read now to see it, don't get the votes on agar or RC, i think hinduragi is town because as scum he wouldn't care about a vote from some idiot like OAFE who has 0 credibility anyway, OAFE is just a 'maybe' for me right now, i think llamarble's posting sucks but he's still just promising content and saying he hasn't actually read the thread so i'm waiting on that.

i agree, i'm not being particularly pro-town right now. me deliberately posting to incur strain also isn't pro-town i dunno if you noticed. maybe someday you'll be able to realize that town-aligned doesn't always equate to pro-town.

but really, assume i'm town for a second, what do you suggest i do when i don't have any strong scum reads. like, in general, not specific to this game. this isn't me trying to appeal to you because lmao who cares about you i'm just genuinely curious

Reasonable. I am Letheo Beast Boy.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Peta

Check that 286 and tell me it comes from town. I dare you.

Hi, that post came from town. It reads exactly like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to do at this point. It speaks to a state of mind I've totally been in before.

ANYWHO

Vote: OnceAndForEver

Town:
Shumgen
chamber
Hindu
chess
peta
MoI
Llama

Question: Given the list of people you read as town, why not a vote for me? Logically speaking, if you think MoI is town, that would suggest that you believe his claim. Believing that both chesskid and Peta are town would thus indicate that you believe I am scum, and would have a stronger case to make against me, no?

Yeah, I'm no longer sure about OAFE. Think Shinori and Petapan are town not particularly feeling like lynching Llaramble today since he'll become super easy to read later and not completely sold on an AGar lynch though he's probably one of the better wagons right now. If I had a vote right now it would be;

Vote: Bella

Fates town-read on her is really bad and dwindles down to 'meta, she lurks as scum' but she is lurking here and her posts have barely been game related with the exception being her response to Mina which was forced to do due to her being questioned. Plus a bonus is she's one of MoI's 3.

I don't know where "lurks as scum" comes from, I'm at my most lurkerish when I'm vanilla town because I tend to lack confidence in my reads and I lack any sort of ability to influence the night phase to cover up for it.

Also: Opinions on the other lurkers - say, Untrod_Tripod and sword_of_omens who've both been as or more lurkerish than I have?

Her logic of 'His contradiction in claim makes him more likely town since as scum he'd have a rigid story' is a line of thinking scum often take about town; town find contradictions and changes in story a scum-tell but the fact that she calls him town and probably telling the truth would mean that one of Peta/Chesskid would have to be scum to her, she takes no stance on either of them at all.

Believing that one of the two isn't day-aligned does not mean I have to have a strong read on either of them - I didn't, so I didn't express a read on them.

Also, people who are telling the truth tend to be more varied in their language than someone who is trying to lie - if you're consciously trying to be sconsistent with yourself rather than relate an actual thing that happened, you tend to use the same language choices as told in the initial lie.

Her posts contain little to no content and her Ludi/AGar thing is actually a scum-tell not a town-tell given that at the time Fate was pushing towards AGar so her only real scum-read put forward was one that Fate had already stated agreement with; in other words it was a very safe read that wouldn't shake the boat at all and since she was town-read from Fate she's been lurking into oblivion despite posting elsewhere on the site.

Yeah, I was v/la and caught up on other things first.

You also seem to have confused the point I was making with AGar/Ludi. The AGar thing was incidental and not expressed as a scum read at all, yet you seem to be focusing on it. I said AGar seemed less townish than Ludi. There's a distinction between that and saying AGar is scummy. Since he's moved onto his Llamarble wagon, he's reading more consitently like a townie with one strong read that he's tunnelling on.

Okay, those are reasonable points.
Particularly I would expect her to say something about Chesskid / Peta.
But neither of those other two have really bothered much about it either.

Here's the thing. I'm coming around to peta-town. Process of deduction would leave chesskid as scum, but he has this weird kinda zwetschenwasser type vibe to him where his posting style seems really useless and scummy but there's a method lurking in his madness. I've been burned by that before. I just don't have a read strong enough to commit to here. If I was forced to pick between them I'd say chesskid is more likely to be scum.

[Bella]

I also have a question for people who know the lore:

What can you tell me of "Tidal Jim"?

[Bella]

I don't know where "lurks as scum" comes from, I'm at my most lurkerish when I'm vanilla town because I tend to lack confidence in my reads and I lack any sort of ability to influence the night phase to cover up for it.

Also: Opinions on the other lurkers - say, Untrod_Tripod and sword_of_omens who've both been as or more lurkerish than I have?

The 'lurks as scum' is meta that Fate was using to state you were town earlier and you should have no reason to ask me about the other lurkers given that 1) I'm conftown so it cannot be based on 'attempting to read me and 2) I stated my entire list of reads 5-10 or whatever posts up with both as null.

I got that, I'm just querying it on account of it not being true. Maybe Fate can't read me as well as he thinks he can. (And yes, I am aware this is attacking the basis of any attempt to defend me, but whatever).

That question wasn't necessarily aimed at just you, nor was it entirely just a question.

This is a problem that arises when a player decides it's cool to throw baseless insults at people whenever he mentions their names. It's hard not to react angrily and appear scummy when someone is so dedicated to baiting you into it.

Frankly I find it hard to believe that all it takes to get you to look scummy and act like a petulant 12-year old is to bring up your well documented flaking history. Gut says it is just an convienent excuse for you to not provide content by being all “Grrr Angry at Mean ol MoI”.

The problem here is that I don't have a "well documented flaking history", as you put it. I have a well documented history of lurking, and you have a skewed perspective based on aught but your own ignorance. 90% of the reason Fate is defending me is probably down to the fact that he is my friend and he knows exactly why this gets under my skin so much.

Question: Given the list of people you read as town, why not a vote for me? Logically speaking, if you think MoI is town, that would suggest that you believe his claim. Believing that both chesskid and Peta are town would thus indicate that you believe I am scum, and would have a stronger case to make against me, no?

So here Bella is questioning Nacho from the standpoint that my claim is true (and thus I am Town). Yet her vote still is on me.

My vote is in a good place.

Nowhere in that statement do I make any comment on *my* opinion of your claim. Nacho stated you were town. Nacho must thus believe your claim. If Nacho believes your claim, why isn't he voting based on it? Is this clear enough for you?

I'll move my vote when I'm ready to put it on scum. Otherwise, I like where it is.

[Bella]

Based on things he's said elsewhere, I'm pretty sure UT's activity level was dictated by external issues rather than in game alignment, so I'd rather we wait to see how Tierce settles in before we do anything rash, like come to judgement on people based on very little evidence. Anyway...

Bella -

Bella jumped on the MOI wagon as soon as it sparked after he stated his 1 of 3 intel, which looks suspicios. Her excuse was that she didn't read that part of his post and that she'd prob vote him anyway. When pressed for any reads she went with an easy Agar target for scum and ML for prob town. Then in 421 she retracts her scumread on Agar. Well she says it wasn't really a scumread, just a "much less than certain town" read. huh?
I also did not like this:

What can you tell me of "Tidal Jim"?

not really sure what she's trying to do here, as this question came out of nowhere…I don't have much flavor knowledge of the game, but even I can look up the links with characters and whatnot....to me it looks like she could be setting up for a fake-claim…in fact i'm pretty curious as to how this will turn out.

I didn't retract the "scum read" on AGar. I never claimed to have a scum read on him. I said that he appeared much less townish than ML. That's not the same as saying I thought he was scum, which certain people were taking it to mean. So, I corrected them. That is not a retraction.

Also, you were oblivious to the purpose of the question, but you're very helpful anyway. Thanks!

[Bella]

This guy lacks the zwettish vibe that chesskid has.

[Bella]

This guy lacks the zwettish vibe that chesskid has.

Look, active lurking useless fluff!

Or not, 'cause I'm pretty sure making a statement on something you've already mentioned as part of a read on a slot doesn't count as "useless fluff". But whatever, it's not like anyone can expect better from you.

Okay, those are reasonable points.
Particularly I would expect her to say something about Chesskid / Peta.
But neither of those other two have really bothered much about it either.

Here's the thing. I'm coming around to peta-town. Process of deduction would leave chesskid as scum, but he has this weird kinda zwetschenwasser type vibe to him where his posting style seems really useless and scummy but there's a method lurking in his madness. I've been burned by that before. I just don't have a read strong enough to commit to here. If I was forced to pick between them I'd say chesskid is more likely to be scum.

(To refresh your memory, since you were apparently too busy counting my posts to read them. )

Yeah, you can eat rope. Pro-Tip - you aren't Glork. Stop pretending to be someone who expects to be treated like him.

I get annoyed easily by your smugness.

I don't like when people trash my reads like that, it prevents me from doing anything productive with them. I was excited to come into a game with a bunch of people on this playerlist and I think I've improved enough recently to do well and I expect to put a lot of time into the round but if I'm going to be treated like my reads are shit right off the bat then I don't want to.

Classic AtE from replacement scum, imo. chesskid left him nothing to work with, and he responds poorly to slight early pressure.

Question to everyone – how much bussing do you think went on with the Staeg wagon? I ask because taking a look at it I realized none of the Nightkilled Townies were on it.

Well, both chesskid and petapan were on the final wagon, so there's one there. Shinori's position on the wagon and the way he jumped onto it would be consistent with him being scum. I'd say there's maybe 2 or 3 on there, plus the 3rd party.

VOTE: MattP, though.

[Bella]

What can you tell me of "Tidal Jim"?

not really sure what she's trying to do here, as this question came out of nowhere…I don't have much flavor knowledge of the game, but even I can look up the links with characters and whatnot....to me it looks like she could be setting up for a fake-claim…in fact i'm pretty curious as to how this will turn out

Also, you were oblivious to the purpose of the question, but you're very helpful anyway. Thanks!

So what exactly WAS the purpose of that question?

That isn't relevent right now.

[Bella]

Or not, 'cause I'm pretty sure making a statement on something you've already mentioned as part of a read on a slot doesn't count as "useless fluff". But whatever, it's not like anyone can expect better from you.

Um, no. The original Zwet comment was fluff also. Saying that Chesskid had a “Zwet feel” to him is meaningless as it is a playstyle element that has absolutely no bearing on the slot’s alignment. Zwet was a useless herp-a-derp regardless of alignment. You very much looked like you were reaching for any bullshit reason to not call him scum before which is not Pro-Town.

So you are saying "Well I fluffed earlier but now when I fluff again you can't call it fluff since it was about fluff I had already mentioned".

No. You may be a total asshole, but you're not stupid. If you're going to try and get me mislynched, at least try and make an argument with a basis that makes sense. Playstyle elements don't affect alignment - they affect the ability to read the alignment. Zwet is a prime example of this - he had a posting style that annoyed a lot of people that lead to him being dismissed by people as a "useless herp-a-derp" when he was actually pretty good at reading people. You could learn from him - unlike you, he could read me.

[Bella]

Need to mull on this game a bit, right now only person I know will flip scum is Bella and working on showing Fate the light in that regard at the moment. The rest of my scum reads are mostly there due to small things I dislike and PoE and right now it's entirely possible SoO is just badtown rather than scum.

Man, you are going to hate it when I flip town. Fate will be unbearable. :p

I kinda share your SoO read, if it helps, though probably for different reasons. I'd have him solidly considered scum were it not for his reaction post, which is making me really uncomfortable about lynching him.

Frustration is boiling over at this point and if either of these reads are correct I'm going to have a fucking conniption. Having these ICs shut down every other wagon is getting god damned fucking annoying. Bella wagon is shit. Sword and Tierce wagons are pretty meh. Fucking lynch me for fuck's sake, at least I'm fucking active.

Give me a legitimate reason why Bella is a bad lynch (Or why you think she's town if that's the case) because "She's barely active" really doesn't sell me against her lynch at all, it actually incentives it. Read through her ISO, she hasn't stated a single scum-read other than Matt and that scum read is mostly due to him being 1ofthe3 other than her. I mean seriously take a look at her and tell me you think she's a bad lynch again. Also I don't understand how you can be as frustrated as you are right now with us shutting down lynches when we shut down the OAFE one, the Llama one you pushed who was town and us shutting down the lynch on you.

Describe town meta
Call scum
???
Profit?

[Bella]

I can kind of see how you might read the entire case on her to be '1in3' but that's only part of the reason, a lot more have been brought up inside the QT between me and Fate and I was hoping it'd be enough to convince him to join me pushing the lynch but there's no harm in elaborating in here as well now too.

Fate knows how I play as town. Your case against me is essentially "She's playing the way she always plays as town, lynch lynch lynch". That's probably why you aren't able to convince him.

Her Post 159 final section of 'I'd be willing to state that Magister Ludi is almost certainly town, and AGar appears much less so, for his attack and vote on ML and his strong pushing of his opinion on MoI's claim here and in other posts.' comes across as unnatural and it does actually hint towards having a minor scum read on you, that being that she actually states things that she hates from you; 'attack/vote/opinion on MoI' and for some context this is the time that Fate was pushing your lynch so what she was doing was setting up potential to join him on but when called out about it she reacts by claiming she never had any sort of scum read on you in Post 421 and Post 561 claiming her entire read was that Ludi was town and that you weren't as town as Ludi, if that was the case then phrasing of 'I have a town read on Ludi' would have sufficed but that's not what she said originally.

So, in conclusion: awkward phasing of strong town read/very weak town read statement = scummy, yes?

It comes very much across as stating subtle agreement with the votes on you, then when called out on it retracting of it and pretending that it never happened. Furthermore her lack of stated scum-reads at all is actually a fairly strong tell, scum hate having to take stances and call town players scum since they'd have to fabricate reasoning behind it so she's been avoiding doing it whenever possible instead posting fluff/responses to MoI that have no real game relevance, her first 'scum-read' really shown was on Matt and was when there was a wagon already on him with her vote placing him to L-2. That complete lack of thought process in terms of scumhunting, getting reads and explaining them isn't there in her posts.

This is the complete opposite of true, especially the thing about stances. When I am scum, operating with the certainty of knowing who the scum team are, I commit much more easily to the reads and cases I present because I operate with a certainty of knowledge about what I am doing and what I am trying to achieve than when I am town, operating solely with the knowledge that I am town, with a lack of conviction in my ability to read people. Flawed premise is flawed.

Also, the MoI stuff is less fluff and more "I hate that guy". Like, seriously.

Also on a sideish note Nacho had town-reads on everyone else from the 1in3 other than Bella and died; his play today would likely have consisted of pushing on her so him dying is partially explained by her being scum though tbh I think he'd have died regardless but lets pretend that makes my case stronger please.

If I had the amount of influence over the night kill that would make this even a slightly plausible statement, Nacho isn't the person I'd be killing. Ask Fate what he thinks I would have done with a kill I could control last night.

Llama-Hider wise he stated he had a town-read on Bella throughout the entire day nearly then had a guess at the scum-team in Post 485 where he had Matts slot as scum and Bella as 'maybe' and him deciding to hide behind 1 of the 3 is actually a logical hider choice since it'd give us a 1/2 shot of nailing scum if he lives and given that he claims to have a fairly strong town read on Peta him hiding behind Bella if living would net him scum, that's a move he'd make and his movement of her from townnull to his scum pool in his final post sort of strengths the possibly that he hid behind her.

'kay. You're wrong, but 'kay.

As for Sera/Nuwen/SoO, if it wasn't for Fate liking Nuwens posts so far and me trusting him with reading her plus not having too many issues with her stuff she'd probably be in the weakish scum area but right now she's fairly nulltown, I obviously have a scummish read on SoO and I really really like a lot of Seras posts so while he's not super active he's not in the scum section.

I am mildly confident that you are wrong with the SoO read.

[Bella]

No. You may be a total asshole, but you're not stupid.

Hey guess what … I don’t care if you think I’m an asshole because I’m not your ‘bud’. I’m here to play Mafia not play “Popular Princess Tea Party with Friends”. Continue to name-call like a middle schooler if you wish.

Ahahaha, the hypocrisy here is delicious.

Describe town meta
Call scum
???
Profit?

And this is why you are a great lynch. Here’s a couple hints for you –

1. Having a ‘Town meta” of being a useless sack of non-scum hunting derp isn’t a good thing..

Way to completely miss the point (and be quite wrong, as usual)

2. Your direct knowledge of your own meta means you are capable of playing to your Town meta as scum so every single appeal you make that "I play this useless only when Town" means jack-crap.

Regfan made a pretty compelling case so I don’t think I have to re-tread those waters other than this …

Regfan's case is a waste of bandwidth and he's wasting his time on it.

If I had the amount of influence over the night kill that would make this even a slightly plausible statement, Nacho isn't the person I'd be killing. Ask Fate what he thinks I would have done with a kill I could control last night.

Bella used a bag of meaningless self-meta WIFOM ...
It wasn't very effective ...

[/quote]

Oh sure, its not very effective on people who're so full of themselves that they're unwilling to contemplate being wrong, but hey... it's true.

I'd also be willing to bet that Fate already made that point to RegFan before I did. If he didn't, then I am disappointed in him.

[Bella]

IZZY ID BE WILLING TO BET IF YOU VOTED TIERCE I COULD SAVE YOU FROM ALL THE EVIL IN THE WORLD

I prefer lynching MattP, if only because his flip would provide useful data for analysis of a larger number of people.

[Bella]

Why is Chesskid (Mattp) being vanillaized? That guy is town as fuck. I realize this sounds like fabulous play based on his VT claim, but who the hell thinks a 1/3 with conf scum in it will be anything but a goon if scum

Can you convince Fate that Bella is scum for me because he's really not listening to me on the topic at all. PS: I agree Matts obvtown, Peta is too.

So, which one of those two "obvtown" players do you change your read on when I flip town?

[Bella]

Catching up since I was busier than expected this weekend...

Hey Bella, can you link me to any previous games between you and MoI?

Not recent ones, iirc. I tend to actively avoid playing with him.

I'm Elathuria, the Plant-Woman (Post 691). Numa Child is also part of the game; I have something like "the Council of the Mind includes the two of you". However, I don't know who he is or his alignment.

This sounds consistent with a hito-written role to me. Whether it's a scum fake-claim or a genuine town role, that's another matter.

No, 'by the time Staeg jumped to UT' OAFE had already claimed AND the claim was being discussed as to its possibility. Staeg went from "this changes nothing" to "wheee let's lynch a random townie" in the span of two posts--you're saying you think he was supporting the lynch of a scumbuddy and letting the tracker power-up that night as a consequence? Come on.

Specifically, the posting went:

Read up to the claim; doesn't change much. Gtg.

Positive feedback is minor enough with a 5 man scum team that the role is viable. Otherwise the notion that he wouldn't claim his actual role mechanic as a Godfather seems silly - I think people are failing to consider the coolness of it.

Flash(,) wagon on UT?

We can try, but I expect minimum support.

Unvote Vote UT

Okay no I'm retarded
I'll help you along with that wagon; still think shinori's scum

unvote
Vote: UT

That screams opportunistic scum jumping on an easy to push lurker town wagon to try and give it extra momentum. It's reinforced by the fact that he mentions his "shinori-scum" stance without voting for him (which he hadn't since early in the game), and I'm not sure Stag would be bussing two buddies at once without throwing a townie or two in to muddy the waters in the event of his lynch.

Wait. Based on the excerpt I read the plant person forgets about the Numa Child every time. Your role makes no sense. The Numa Child knowing about the plant person makes sense but not the other way around.

I believe this would answer your point:

General Rules:

Role PM's are Abarat flavored. I have tried to make them fit thematically with the story – but note that I reserve the right to interpret the story differently / make some roles not align with the story if I believe doing so is crucial to the game balance. Also, while most of the flavor is from the second book, I may use flavor, characters, etc that are found only in the first book as well.

Believing/disbelieving claims based solely on flavor seems counter-productive.

-------------------------

Based on his posting since Fate and Regfan were nightkilled, I'm a lot more comfortable with petapan being town. Thus, VOTE: MattP.

[Bella]

Bella, it says "if I believe doing so is crucial to the game balance". Either there are two roles that know about each other's existence or one of the two knows about the other, in which case it makes no sense for the plant one to be knowledgeable one - see how balance doesn't come into this?

To me, "game balance" covers the ability to make alignment judgments based on flavor, which might be relevent in this case. I could be wrong though, since I'm not really familiar with the source material.

[Bella]

MattP

– here is the list of all games Bella (also under her Dizzy original account) have played together …

Danakillsu’s Secret Invasion Mafia – she flaked Day 3

Gorrad’s Favorite Characters Mafia – she replaced in Day 1 and was flaked Day 3.

That’s it. Took me awhile to find given how many games I’ve played.

Now that you have this information – what did you think you were on to?

See, aside from the fact that you're an insufferable, egotistical prick with an overblown ego based on a scummy you didn't fucking deserve who thinks he gets killed night one a lot because he's good rather than because he's a pain in the fucking ass to play with, this is why I fucking hate you.

I did not flake.

I replaced out.

There is a difference.

Quite a large one, actually.

Look at those two games. Note that they were happeniong at the same time. In Secret Invasion, I was active and engaged in the early game - as a town power role, the one that tends to make me the most engaged in games - until early November, at which point my posting tailed off and I replaced out. In Gorrad's Favorite Characters, I replaced in on October 23rd, during a night phase that lasted until November the first, at which point the game resumed and I didn't really post much at all.

During early November a personal matter arose. It affected my ability to play Mafia to the point that I PMed the mods, explained the situation and requested replacement (although, there was a communication issue with Gorrad that lead to a delay in his seeking a replacement, though I forget what the precise issue was). I didn't post anything in the threads because I didn't want to talk about it in public. This is very different to flaking. If you think it is not, you are wrong. Flaking is a neglect of responsibilities, rather than prioritising more important issues. The issue I had was highly personal, and highly sensitive. It makes me rather upset. Fate was aware of this. Note his post earlier:

I wasn't using the Bella lurks as scum meta... I SPECIFICALLY said in the qt I didn't want to delve too deep into the reasons why I'm able to read izzy here because it would involve me revealing aspects of personality that she might not be comfortable with.

Since I returned from the hiatus caused by this personal issue, every time MoI has had any contact with me, he has been pushing the "flake" thing. This makes me very, very angry, because he's obnoxious at the best of times and his casual, insulting dismissal of something that was rather traumatic really, really bugs me. I haven't intentionally played with him since. The very mention of his name is liable to send me into a ranting rage. He is aware of this, and has been using it throughout the game as a way of intentionally, provocatively and very, very deliberately taunting me into temotional reactions. Frankly, I am kinda disappointed in hito that he's treating it as a "Mafia related thing" and not punishing him for being the shitlord he is, since his actions are entirely designed to bait me intio reacting. Whatever, that's just the kind of fucking asshole MoI is.

He will reply by calling me a flake again. I will get mad again. Nothing will be accomplished. Douchebaggery and scum win again.

[Bella]

@Bella

– I’m setting this to rest because I’m tired of your whining …

Look at those two games. Note that they were happeniong at the same time. In Secret Invasion, I was active and engaged in the early game - as a town power role, the one that tends to make me the most engaged in games - until early November, at which point my posting tailed off and I replaced out. In Gorrad's Favorite Characters, I replaced in on October 23rd, during a night phase that lasted until November the first, at which point the game resumed and I didn't really post much at all.

During early November a personal matter arose. It affected my ability to play Mafia to the point that I PMed the mods, explained the situation and requested replacement (although, there was a communication issue with Gorrad that lead to a delay in his seeking a replacement, though I forget what the precise issue was). I didn't post anything in the threads because I didn't want to talk about it in public. This is very different to flaking. If you think it is not, you are wrong. Flaking is a neglect of responsibilities, rather than prioritising more important issues. The issue I had was highly personal, and highly sensitive. It makes me rather upset. Fate was aware of this.

So I’m going to summarize the what you are saying here.

1. You had a personal issue that caused you to replace out of games.
2. You didn’t actually take the initiative to post a line from your account in thread saying “Due to personal matters I am requesting replacement” so that everyone else could know this which is a very common practice on MS.
3. You expect me to be a mind reader and ‘know’ all about your personal issues and the private PMs to the Mods. Here's a hint ... despite being real good at this game I'm not psychic.

Since I returned from the hiatus caused by this personal issue, every time MoI has had any contact with me, he has been pushing the "flake" thing. This makes me very, very angry, because he's obnoxious at the best of times and his casual, insulting dismissal of something that was rather traumatic really, really bugs me.

Well it’s hard to me not to think of you as a flake when I HAVE NO FUCKING INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR TRAMATIC PERSONAL LIFE AND SEE NOTHING THAT DIDN’T INDICATE TO ME YOU DIDN’T FLAKE.

You’re acting as if you said “MOD – have to replace out due to cancer striking my family” and I’ve ignored that and just called you a flake since. Which is so far from reality I don’t even …

If you want to act the victim going forward that’s on you. Now that you have actually explained what happened I can re-asses my reasons for thinking you a flake and stop thinking of you as such. But I’m damn well not going to take any fucking attitude from you about how mean I am when your reasoning for such is fucking moronic.

I call fucking bullshit on your claims of ignorance. Sure, that's a reasonable stance for you to have taken - before the numerous times I've corrected your fucking flake thing. Don't even act like I haven't said anything about it, because that's the biggest pile of bullshit since some fuckign factory farm had an outbreak of diarrhea.

That is not event he biggest issue. The biggest issue is that you keep fucking bringing it up for no reason relevent to the game, because you know it provokes a reaction from me. That's not playing the game, that's being a giant prick.

[Bella]

I'm fine with this plan, since either MattP or MoI are scum and we'll find out which either way.

Work out which of them is hammering me, they flip town, kill the other tomorrow.

VOTE: Bella

[Bella]

Oh, I suppose I should claim, too...

I am

Two-Toed Tom, the Sailor from Spake

. My role PM lists no special powers, and though it doesn't out-right state it, it kinda gives the impression that there's some kinda interaction between me and whoever scored Tidal Jim (hence asking the question about it earlier), possibly some kinda lovers role thing.

I'm still kinda v/la, so this is really quick:

Town reads:
AGar
Flash
Gammagooey
Minimum
Petapan
Seraphim
sword_of_omens

Scum reads:
MagnaofIllusion
MattP

One of these two is 100% scum, and should be lynched tomorrow.

No fucking clue (could be Night, Comexo or town):
4nxi3ty
Hinduragi
Quilford
RedCoyote
Shmugen

I mean, I'm happy to go with this plan of lynching me if since it means we'll get scum off the board, but as a town we'd be better off having MoI and MattP being lynch and hammer.

[Bella]

eh
flash i get what you're saying
but even ignoring the 1-in-3 bella would still be a pretty good lynch. like this in particular is super deathworthy-

Based on things he's said elsewhere, I'm pretty sure UT's activity level was dictated by external issues rather than in game alignment, so I'd rather we wait to see how Tierce settles in before we do anything rash, like come to judgement on people based on very little evidence. Anyway...

How in the hell is that scummy at all? UT hadn't really posted and had actual issues that meant calling him lurker scum was overambitious, and at that point Tierce hadn't really posted either. I kinda like coming to judgments based on actual evidence of behvior. Anyone calling that slot scum at the point wasn't right because of awesome scumhunting skills, they were rigth because they were lucky.

[Bella]

You're leaping to a terrible, terrible conclusion there, based on an entirely flawed premise. The entire point was that there was no play to defend nor draw conclusions from. UT's lack of posting was consistent with null-tell external issues. Tierce hadn't had a chance to catch up to the game. People were pushing a wagon with no real basis that had all the hallmarks of a scum-driven "get the lurker lynched and avoid responsibility" wagon. The fact that Tierce happened to behave scummily in the aftermath and turned out to be scum is entirely irrelevent. Even blind quirrels find nuts sometimes.

[Bella]

=================

Bella, please paraphrase the flavour in your role PM. What exactly does it say about Tidal Jim?

=================

It's kinda awkward to paraphrase without using the actual words, but it says something along the lines of he's linked to me and I wouldn't let anything anything bad happen to him. In the source material, Two-Toes Tom and Tidal Jim are lovers, iirc.

[Bella]

At this point, I don't see how you can justify considering MoI a liar AND town. The 1 in 3 thing has dragged on for long enough without adding any clarity to the situation that the only possibilities now are that he's town and thus telling the truth or scum locked into an early gambit.

[Bella]

Bella, can you explain your town reads on Seraphim, sword_of_omens, and AGar?

Seraphim: His analysis of Stag's interactions (or lack thereof) with the 1 in 3 and the UT/Tierce slot committed him too strongly to "Tierce is not a Stag buddy" for scum who knows that Tierce is Stag's scumbuddy, and making that solid a statement only to turn around and vote her later seems really unscummy - if he was open to voting her, I think scum-Seraphim would have been a bit more weasely and not made himself look quite such a hypocrite. In addition, he's presented cases and generally appears to be trying to find scum. Also:

@Seraphim, I think the fully worked out fake claims part of the set-up makes that type of consideration fairly null.

The fake claims are not "full" if I remember correctly.

Nachomamma's plan has merit but I'll leave you guys to debate that because...

Mod: V/LA until Friday

This is a post I think is far more likely to be made by town than scum. Scum will have seen the fakeclaims they are given, and would know that they are full role PMs, as stated in the set-up post, whereas town players would only know this from reading the set-up post fully. I think it is unlikely that scum, having seen the fake claims, would assume that the town would be lead to believe that they weren't full fake claims. I do acknowledge that there's a chance that there's something wrong with him and he's managed to draw a conclusion in the face of evidence to the contrary, but i think it's quite remote.

AGar: He's playing consistently with AGar town that I've played with. He's very firm with his opinions in a way that scum generally aren't 'cause it costs them too much flexibility, his willingness to say "lynch me instead of X" and an attitude of being unconcerned about being lynched at a point where Night have lost more than half their number, he's been willing to challenge people to justify their support of cases he disagrees with and just generally seems to be trying to find scum and kill it.

I do admit the fact that he called out MoI for his douchebaggery gives him bonus points, though.

sword_of_omens: Admittedly, this is the weakest read I'm willing to go out on a limb to state, but honestly, it's a combination of gut and the way he reacted to the Tidal Jim thing.I'm open to having my mind changed,though.

And why don't you have any scumreads outside MoI and Matt?

Because the way I'm reading the game, one of those two is definitely scum by a process of elimination, whereas I'm really struggling to pick up on any outright scummy reads on other people. I like to have a certain level of confidence in reads before I state them and I tend to equivocate on them when I have them, far moreso as town than scum.[/quote]

[Bella]

Ugh, I double posted when fixing tags... Mod, can you delete the first post, please?

Done. -hito

[Bella]

Well, I for one am convinced of your innocence through this sound and flawless logic.

[Bella]

eraphim, do you think I'm just OMGUS-ing, or that she's really and truly scum? Do you want to join the wagon?

I don't see too much of a point in moving my vote around until MoI shows up. Tammy's entrance into the thread has not been sitting well with me and hopefully I'll get a chance to reread the conversation you two have been having. I don't think your vote is OMGUS.

If it's worth anything, I dislike Bella's absence from the thread even more than Tammy's posting.

Not much of anything is going on since we're waiting for MoI to show up and reaffirm his claim yet again.

[Bella]

Since the whole "Lynch Bella/get MattPTammy to hammer" plan has fallen through,

Unvote

.

[Bella]

I wouldn't have voted for myself if I wasn't happy to go through with it.

[Bella]

At this point, with only two scum left, plus one third party, I don't see why Town MoI would allow the issue of the 1 in 3 to fester by refusing to fully claim. It's something that's been hanging over the game since he claimed it early on day one. It's still an issue, to the point that we had a lull in the game because people were waiting for MoI to come back and cofirm yet again that it's not a gambit. Enough people aren't convinced by it that without a full claim, the information he's claimed to provide is essentially worthless. He's got claims out of all three of us. Time for him to join us so we can deal with this distraction once and for all.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[Bella]

Well upon re-read I see that AGar is a Roleblocker claim not Jailkeep claim. Scatch my earlier stupid posting.

I'm going to officially Name claim since I'm tired of hearing about it. If you haven't guessed you either aren't paying attention or really don't care ...

Mespa, Sister of the Fantomaya

Or, y'know, unfamiliar with the flavor of the game.

[Bella]

Well then. VOTE: Quilford

[Bella]

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[Bella]

What he's saying is that he caught MoI lying about his role, and assumed it was because he was scum because he didn't think MoI was stupid or arrogant enough to try and pull that bullshit and hold onto it so long to the detriment of the town. Even I didn't think MoI was that much of a fucking douchebag, and I hate that guy. Guess I overestimated his worth as a human being.

Hito: Your rules prohibit playing against your wincon and deliberate harrassment. Magna's bullshit entailed both of those things - he pulled his bullshit in full knowledge of the fact that it damage the town's ability to achieve its win condition - his wincon - and he did so with the deliberate intent to harrass players he would rather not have been playing with. Can you please invoke your modkill rule so he doesn't to count it as a win if and when town recovers from his actions?

Talk of this nature should be avoided until postgame. this is for everyone. thanks. -hito

[Bella]

i give a name
if it's town or scum in the game, i get that role PM. as a side note, all role pms i get are the pregame version so i don't know who has them and any changes (inventor abilities or something) made during the game aren't seen.
if it's an official scum fakeclaim, i will also get that role PM exactly as I would get a town PM.

So what you're saying is that your results only tell you if people are lying about the contents of a role PM and not whether it is their specific role PM, yes?

In which case, why are you drawing conclusions based on this when it is entirely possible that the scum are just actually sticking to fake claims?

[Bella]

Unlike me, he didn't think MoI was capable of holding up a gambit to the very end. Also, half the game joined him in that thought.

Look at it this way. If it was a fakeclaim and he didn't see any Informed ability, then MoI was lying scum and would flip that way. If it wasn't, then MoI was retardedly-gambiting town that not many people in this game thought would be a possible option. Thus, he concluded it was a fakeclaim.

That's not the point I'm making. I was talking about his Shmugen stuff.

[Bella]

(Note: I've changed the names of people who've been lynched to the current or final holder of the slot for ease of reference)

Day One Lynch:

(12)

Staeg:

Strain

The Two In One, 4nxi3ty, petapan

,

Quilford

,

MagnaOfIllusion

, Tammy, Shmugen,

Hinduragi

,

AGar

,

Shinori

, Gammagooey
(5)

petapan:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Strain

,

OnceandForEver

, RedCoyote
(3)

Llamarble:

Strain

,

Seraphim

,

Tierce

(3)

Tierce:

Flash,

Staeg

, Minimum
(3)

Fate:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Strain

(3)

Hinduragi:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Llamarble

(1)

OnceAndForEver:

Nachomamma8

(2)

MagnaOfIlluision:

Strain

, Bella
(2)

Regfan:

Strain

,

Strain

(1)

Tammy:

Strain

(1)

Bella:

sword_of_omens
(1)

Flash:

Nuwen

Day Two Lynch:

(9)

Tierce:

Minimum,

Hinduragi

, RedCoyote,

Nuwen, MagnaOfIllusion

, Flash, Shmugen,

Gammagooey

, Tammy
(2)

Quilford:

4nxi3ty, petapan

(1)

Nuwen:

Tierce

(1)

Tammy:

Bella

(4)

Not Voting:

AGar

,

Quilford

, sword_of_omens,

Seraphim

Day Three Lynch:

(8)

Quilford:

sword_of_omens, Tammy,

Hinduragi

, Bella,

Gammagooey

,

4nxi3ty

, Shmugen,

MagnaOfIllusion

(4)

Tammy:

Seraphim

, RedCoyote,

petapan, AGar

(1)

MagnaOfIllusion:

Flash
(1)

AGar:

Quilford

(1)

Bella:

Minimum

Day Four Lynch:

(7)

MagnaOfIllusion:

Minimum, Flash,

petapan

,

Gammagooey

, Bella,

Hinduragi

, RedCoyote
(1)

Bella:

MagnaOfIllusion

(1)

Tammy:

4nxi3ty

(4)

Not Voting:

sword_of_omens, Tammy, Shmugen,

Seraphim

So, I started off looking at the wagons to see if there was anything to glean from them given that we have four dead scum flips and plenty of information. Two things stood out to me. The first is

Seraphim's

noticable position off-wagon for every single lynch that has gone through. He's only placed one vote on any of the scum that have flipped thus far - a vote on Tierce that he threw on when her lynch seemed inevitable - after the vote count reset following Shinori's suicide kill, he put her at L-1 following the rush of votes going back onto her. When the quicklynch he seemed to expect didn't happen, he jumped off her wagon and moved across to petapan, after making a pretty bizarre post about a possible stupid gambit:

Conspiracy theory: peta-scum has Shinori kill self off in order to protect Tierce-scum and deflect to me, because I was the only person who openly defended Shinori.

This is pushing me towards the possibility that Seraphim is the last Night player in the game.

The other is that

Hinduragi

and

Gammagooey

have been on every single lynch wagon thusfar. I'd call that a very mild Commexo tell - and given that Hindu was one of the people who shot down AGar's talk of Commexo hunting on day two, there's something there I'd like to look at further, particularly since I'm currently on the side of Gammatown.

VOTE: Seraphim

[Bella]

Vote: Bella

I think she's fakeclaiming….
I really don't like her play…
I didn't like her set-up for Tidal Jim
I didn't like the fact that she hinted that she was a lover…

Legitimate question:

Since this isn't a bastard game, if she is a lover wouldn't she have been told that?
also her hate-post about getting MOI modkilled seemed like overkill…

Explain and justify.

I find it mildly amusing that you think my MoI post was overkill, because it was really, really restrained.

[Bella]

Why sword_of_omens?

[Bella]

PoE + other stuff, like his last post and general vibe.

Odd, that kinda thing gives me a strong town read on him.

[Bella]

Oh, sorry, I though I'd posted this...

I'm currently v/la for the next few days due to family stuffs.

Fucking babies. That is all.

[Bella]

Quick question for everyone. for the person that you are currently voting, do you expect them to flip Commexo or Night?

Night.

[Bella]

Why are you only asking Shmugen and not Seraphim, who also piled on the wagon after sword_of_omens went on v/la?

[Bella]

I saw a wagon that not only had momentum but was on one of the people I was suspicious of, plus Minimum's bit about how SoO's thinking Bella would flip Night was a scumtell was convincing.

I've caught heat for this in the past, and I think I've finally found out why. I don't see voting people who are V/LA as scummy. On the whole, town is going to be sensible and let the accused attempt to refute some points. Voting someone V/LA might delay the game a bit but isn't a bad practice in my eyes.

You put him at L-1 while he was v/la. It's not necessarily scummy, but it's most certainly stupid play as town.

[Bella]

Very happy with that Seraphim vote at the moment. Deadline is upon us, he's a leading wagonn - where's a post trying to convince us to lynch someone else, or at least attempting to provide us with his reads if he's going to flip town?

[Bella]

Bella - Can you explain what changed for you for Seraphim between the first post and the second post. Do you typically base scum reads on wagon analysis?

Well, roughly 400 posts and two lynches worth of information happened. That has a way of influencing opinions.

I typically base scum reads on whatever the hell is available to me. Wagon analysis is a useful tool at times. Apparently not this one, but Scumhunting isn;'t an exact science.

[Bella]

Why has this been literally your only contribution this week? You've been on site each day since this and you can't be bothered to do anything but answer this question in a kind of weirdly semi-aggressive and dismissive way?

I tend to believe that not posting when you have nothing to say is better than posting fluff when you have nothing to say because you want to seem active.

The fact is that it doesn't matter that there were 400 posts between that and two lynches. One of those lynches was basically a cop guilty that happened pretty fast. And the day three lynch switched from me to Quilford in a rather short amount of time as well. Did you take that into account when you decided by wagon analysis Seraphim was likely guilty? Did you check to see if Seraphim was even online or posted during the times of the changes of those two lynches? (Hint: He wasn't) His Post 1392 was before the Quilford incident and his next Post 1553 in which he declares he's back from V/LA is after MoI was lynched.

So those two lynches of information had no bearing on Seraphim whatsoever and if you would have actually done the proper research you would know that.

This is ridiculous. Reads are not independent of each other. They are informed by how you read other people. 400 posts and two lynches confirmed other players as town, whittling down the suspect pool and thus leading to reevaluations of existing players. Specifically the MoI lynch radically affected the way the game was read - prior to the reveal that he was a lying clownfuck playing against his wincon townie, a reasonable person would have to assume that one of four people (MoI and the 1-in-3) had to be scum. With this assumption removed from play, things change in a major way.

So, what made you change from thinking actual words of his sounded like town to deciding faulty wagon information made him likely scum? And do you tend to prioritize wagon analysis over behavior?

No, I don't. I tend to prioritize whatever the hell evidence is in front of me, whether it pans out or not.

[Bella]

Why has this been literally your only contribution this week? You've been on site each day since this and you can't be bothered to do anything but answer this question in a kind of weirdly semi-aggressive and dismissive way?

I tend to believe that not posting when you have nothing to say is better than posting fluff when you have nothing to say because you want to seem active.

Pretty dumbfounded at how you have literally nothing to say. We're extremely close to endgame. There's a commexo and night wandering around, and ou literally have nothing to say but that my observations or questions are ridiculous. Not one opinion on who night/comexo is? I'm not saying you should spam the thread or post fluff, but...contribute...a little?

Hi. I'm posting. Just... not much because I don't have much to say. I'm not going to invent phantom cases just for the sake of doing something.

The fact is that it doesn't matter that there were 400 posts between that and two lynches. One of those lynches was basically a cop guilty that happened pretty fast. And the day three lynch switched from me to Quilford in a rather short amount of time as well. Did you take that into account when you decided by wagon analysis Seraphim was likely guilty? Did you check to see if Seraphim was even online or posted during the times of the changes of those two lynches? (Hint: He wasn't) His Post 1392 was before the Quilford incident and his next Post 1553 in which he declares he's back from V/LA is after MoI was lynched.

So those two lynches of information had no bearing on Seraphim whatsoever and if you would have actually done the proper research you would know that.

This is ridiculous. Reads are not independent of each other. They are informed by how you read other people. 400 posts and two lynches confirmed other players as town, whittling down the suspect pool and thus leading to reevaluations of existing players. Specifically the MoI lynch radically affected the way the game was read - prior to the reveal that he was a lying clownfuck playing against his wincon townie, a reasonable person would have to assume that one of four people (MoI and the 1-in-3) had to be scum. With this assumption removed from play, things change in a major way.

This makes better sense but it's not ridiculous and the fact that you seem so agitated over being asked a simple question is very odd. What I'm looking at is seeing you look at a players words and saying that it doesn't make sense as scum, then looking at faulty wagon information and concluding he is scum. And I'm trying to figure out your thought process because it didnt make sense to me how you went from town to scum on seraphim.

I don't know I suppose it's possible that because we viewed moi's information In a different way we might have different views of,our reads. Maybe. I still cant get to how someone making town sounding posts became scum due to faulty wagons that he couldn't have Ben apart of that makes you fel so self righteous in your action/read.

It is ridiculous to discount the fact that the state of the game completely changed between the two posts you compared. You attempted to do that. The state of the game at the point of the first post informs the opinions I drew - the fact that I was certain scum had to be somewhere else means I was inclined to interpret Seraphim's actions thusfar in a way that suppoerted my existing ideas. By the second post, the entire basis of the assumption that scum was elsewhere had been removed, uncercutting my prior assessment, which combined with what the wagon analysis demonstrated persuaded me that Seraphim was entirely possibly scum.

(Also, quit with the "faulty wagon analysis" line, the wagon analysis was entirely valid and certainly wasn't questioned by you until after it was proven false. Hindsight is 20-20.)

So, what made you change from thinking actual words of his sounded like town to deciding faulty wagon information made him likely scum? And do you tend to prioritize wagon analysis over behavior?

No, I don't. I tend to prioritize whatever the hell evidence is in front of me, whether it pans out or not.

See this is the kind of cheeky answer that is uncalled for especially in light of present circumstances. You claimed that his words made no sense as scum and called him town, and then used incomplete wagon analysis to call him scum. I'm trying to figure out why ou keep negating that. What's weirder is that ou can't acknowledge that you used faulty analysis to call him scum.

You asked me whether I have a tendency to do something. I do not have a tendency to do one or the other. I really don't see your problem with that?

[Bella]

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Bella]

Welp, I sincerely doubt I'll be able to talk myself out of being lynched now. I'm sorry town, I made a terrible mistake and I'm so sorry I've probably cost us the game. If you think I'm scum, and there's a chance we can still win even with a mislynch today, I implore you all to kill me now, find out I'm actually town and give yourselves a shot of winning the game.

[Bella]

Hito's beginning of Day post did have the line about the Commexo having an imminent victory in it at first by the bye, so that should rule out any possible doubt we might have on that score.

It's not there now.

[Bella]

Yes, I know it's not there now, Bella.

Bella, claim Night. You can still win if we lynch wrong out of Tammy/Flash.

Shmugen, you being confirmed town definitely makes a difference. That's all we care about right now.

I don't see how fake claiming helps anyone.

[Bella]

I mixed up the vote counts in my head after reading it on account if it being pretty late by my schedule.

[Bella]

That's just stupid.

[Bella]

I made a mistake that lost us the game. That's not very hard to understand.

[Bella]

[Bella]

SK would've killed you last Night if you had. Try again.

Also... why specifically would the SK kill me if I was town who made a mistake? Why not night?

[Bella]

I mixed up the vote counts in my head after reading it on account if it being pretty late by my schedule.

What do you mean by mixing up the vote counts? The last vote count before you voted, which was on the previous page showed Red Coyote, in red, at L-1.

As in, I confused the RC and Shmugen vote counts, so I thought Shmugen was at L-1, not RC. I'd been reading through some isos and such and misremembered the vote count. It happens sometimes.

[Bella]

Also... why specifically would the SK kill me if I was town who made a mistake? Why not night?

Hmm. True. Night should also have tried to kill you if you were town. Will you claim scum now then?

Nope, I've already made a full and complete claim.

[Bella]

If the option is between lynching me, and lynching Tammy, then I'm the better lynch cause lynching Tammy outright loses us the game. Bella is still the right lynch here. I don't know how you can think shes Night based on a single point of evidence that's plausibly explained by her incompetence.

Why are you only willing to consider the possibility that I made a mistake if I'm Commexo? Surely if you're open to the possibility it wasn't an intentional hammer, then you have to be open to the possibility that I'm town who screwed up - especially since the last comment you made about my alignment said you had a town read on me. Today, you've been entirely focused on the idea of selling me as the SK rather than night. Either you're REALLY confident in your Tammy read, or you're convinced I'm night and killing me will hand CommexoFlash the win.

[Bella]

(Also: VOTE: Flash)

[Bella]

There is no scum claim. I am 100% Two-Toed Tom the Sailor from Spake, day aligned citizen, as I stated earlier.

[Bella]

That was kinda the point.

[Bella]

No?

[Bella]

The important point is that Flash is Commexo and must die. Then tomorrow, Tammy.

Then town wins.

This, of course, is not going to happen, and it will be my fault.

[Bella]

There are more people in the game than just me and Tammy. While it is unlikely that either you or Shmugen are scum, it's also not completelty impossible.

[Bella]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

No, it really depends on the circumstances of the game. Personally, I like Nuwen, so I wouldn't kill her unless I had to. In this game, there was absolutely no reason for ScumIzzy to feel threatened by Nuwen - she'd listed me twice as someone she wouldn't consider voting for and the fact that confirmed-town Fate was absolutely convinced to the death that I was town meant that she was if anything someone I would have needed alive in order to counter the anti-Izzy crowd. Even if you think I'm scum, you'd have to assign that kill to the other faction.

What you really should be looking at is if I had a kill, why did MoI survive night one?

Of course, the logical conclusion is that Night killed Nuwen, and you probably disagree with it on account of replacing in after the fact.

[Bella]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

You applied the descriptors "decisive" and "confident" to it, which it was not. That is mischaracterization.

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

No, it really depends on the circumstances of the game. Personally, I like Nuwen, so I wouldn't kill her unless I had to. In this game, there was absolutely no reason for ScumIzzy to feel threatened by Nuwen - she'd listed me twice as someone she wouldn't consider voting for and the fact that confirmed-town Fate was absolutely convinced to the death that I was town meant that she was if anything someone I would have needed alive in order to counter the anti-Izzy crowd. Even if you think I'm scum, you'd have to assign that kill to the other faction.

What you really should be looking at is if I had a kill, why did MoI survive night one?

Of course, the logical conclusion is that Night killed Nuwen, and you probably disagree with it on account of replacing in after the fact.

She did vote to send you on day two though. If she hadn't. If she'd left it at calling you town, I wouldn't even be stuck on it.

Why would you kill MoI night one?[/quote]

I was claimed vanilla at that point, so there was no risk of hurting the town by sending me. She still wasn't a threat to me, because she was receptive to the idea that I was town and Fate's town read was out there. She also wasn't in any sort of town leadership position where she could create and lead a case against me that'd be a slam dunk to go through.

As for MoI, he's fucking MagnaofIllusion. Chamber/Nexus and CES are around ScumChat enough to know full well that there's no way in hell he survives night one if I have a kill - which would indicate that if I'm scum, I'd have to be night, since SKIzzy doesn't have a team that could out-vote her or whatever. Yet, Chamber/Nexus are still pushing their absurd SKIzzy notion.

You, on the other hand, have the evidence of the game thread. Why on earth would I (as scum) leave someone who makes it so hard for me to fake being town because his every other post makes me rage uncontrollably?

[Bella]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

You applied the descriptors "decisive" and "confident" to it, which it was not. That is mischaracterization.

I may have misinterpreted the fact that you voted pretty early into the day and your statement of who was who as representing you being decisive, but I'm not sure where you can accuse me of mischaracterizing what seems obvious to me in the thread. I can't read your mind, so can't tell when a vote is decisive or indecisive.

If you can't tell, WHY DID YOU DO IT, THEN?

I was claimed vanilla at that point, so there was no risk of hurting the town by sending me. She still wasn't a threat to me, because she was receptive to the idea that I was town and Fate's town read was out there. She also wasn't in any sort of town leadership position where she could create and lead a case against me that'd be a slam dunk to go through.

As for MoI, he's fucking MagnaofIllusion. Chamber/Nexus and CES are around ScumChat enough to know full well that there's no way in hell he survives night one if I have a kill - which would indicate that if I'm scum, I'd have to be night, since SKIzzy doesn't have a team that could out-vote her or whatever. Yet, Chamber/Nexus are still pushing their absurd SKIzzy notion.

You, on the other hand, have the evidence of the game thread. Why on earth would I (as scum) leave someone who makes it so hard for me to fake being town because his every other post makes me rage uncontrollably?

I can't answer that. I tend to read emotions as town. I've never played with you though, so don't know what your like as a player. That's not the type of thing I'd make a night kill over though, so it's not something that I can relate to, especially when I think many people could make that claim for.

And I think the Nuwen kill is more important than the moi non-kill in determining the serial killer.

The MoI thing is more for the benefit of CES, tbh, since he should know better than to assume I wouldn't kill him. Well, and Chamber/Nexus, but they're the SK and don't need persuading.

[Bella]

CES, you know I'm not the SK, don't do this just because you have a bad mafia read on Bella.

What a wonderful appeal to emotion.

[Bella]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

You applied the descriptors "decisive" and "confident" to it, which it was not. That is mischaracterization.

I may have misinterpreted the fact that you voted pretty early into the day and your statement of who was who as representing you being decisive, but I'm not sure where you can accuse me of mischaracterizing what seems obvious to me in the thread. I can't read your mind, so can't tell when a vote is decisive or indecisive.

If you can't tell, WHY DID YOU DO IT, THEN?

I was claimed vanilla at that point, so there was no risk of hurting the town by sending me. She still wasn't a threat to me, because she was receptive to the idea that I was town and Fate's town read was out there. She also wasn't in any sort of town leadership position where she could create and lead a case against me that'd be a slam dunk to go through.

As for MoI, he's fucking MagnaofIllusion. Chamber/Nexus and CES are around ScumChat enough to know full well that there's no way in hell he survives night one if I have a kill - which would indicate that if I'm scum, I'd have to be night, since SKIzzy doesn't have a team that could out-vote her or whatever. Yet, Chamber/Nexus are still pushing their absurd SKIzzy notion.

You, on the other hand, have the evidence of the game thread. Why on earth would I (as scum) leave someone who makes it so hard for me to fake being town because his every other post makes me rage uncontrollably?

I can't answer that. I tend to read emotions as town. I've never played with you though, so don't know what your like as a player. That's not the type of thing I'd make a night kill over though, so it's not something that I can relate to, especially when I think many people could make that claim for.

And I think the Nuwen kill is more important than the moi non-kill in determining the serial killer.

The MoI thing is more for the benefit of CES, tbh, since he should know better than to assume I wouldn't kill him. Well, and Chamber/Nexus, but they're the SK and don't need persuading.

(Fixed tags from the earlier post, any chance you can get rid of that one, Hito?)

[Bella]

I've come to the conclusion that I just read too much into the flavor re: Tidal Jim.

[Bella]

That post you just made? It's entirely an appeal to emotion. Even the denial of a previous appeal to emotion.

[Bella]

Bella, actually, a reason you wouldn't kill MoI: because of his 1-in-3 claim. If he died and flipped Informed ___ (since from your PoV as scum, you'd think he was telling the truth), then that means people will get around to lynching you sooner rather than later.

That's a logical reason. Do you really think that logic would overpower my desire to not play with MoI?

[Bella]

He can't know unless he's the SK.

[Bella]

(Also spoiler alert: You know this because you're scum).

[Bella]

I believe we have this game won, so long as you come along with me on one simple assumption.

If we assume that Mrs. Scattamun wasn't killed by both Night and Commexo, then it should follow that Flash is the SK and Bella is Night.

In the original Abarat game, Chris Carrion was a bulletproof Night member, but his bulletproof ability was passive. Tammy lost all her active and passive abilities.

Welp, someone is going to be disappointed.

[Bella]

There are some assumptions I'm operating under here, key among them that Magna wasn't lying.

Its literally impossible for him not to have been lying(ironically right, but still lying).

He didn't flipped informed. To my recollection, he never claimed informed, just to have information. While I'm curious about the role as a whole, his play never looked like he was lying. You were very sure early that he was lying and your reasons for that surety were never convincing, especially after he flipped town.

From his second post in the game:

but

your

you're not selfvoting?

First I've corrected the grammar for you.

Second clearly nothing gets by you ... I'm voting for you because part of my informed Townie status gives me some info and of the choices I am presented you are by far my favorite option to lynch. Yes, I'm choosing you over Bella (who will flake and get replaced by Glork so that's a huge upgrade) and Chesskid.

He claimed informed Townie. He's a lying fucking douchefuck who is probably going to be gloating about being right because of some fucking fluke.

[Bella]

There was a 64% chance that at least 1 non town would be in any group of 3 he selected knowing that hes town and that he wouldn't pick fate or regfan. He has nothing to gloat over even given that he was 'right'.

You think that'll stop him?

[Bella]

Tammy, just shut up and kill SKFlash so you can win the game, thanks.

[Bella]

This sucks, but if I wait any longer I'm just going to get lynched anyway. I'm the last member of Night, and can prove it. In steags pm, along side the fact that Finnegan is day aligned, was an ability Finnegan posses; Slay; which lets Finnegan attempt to Vig someone at night, but it will only work on Nythaganius Pejorius(steag). Its a speed kill, and ignores anything that would try to stop it. Minimum should be able to confirm that for me. I told you bella wasn't Night.

Unvote Vote Tammy

Well, this is entirely unexpected. I guess given CES/Mina's reaction that you're unlikely to be lying, but if you are, this is one hell of a ballsy move from SKFlash and I'm more than happy to lose to it.

unvote

, VOTE: Tammy

Town might actually win this now!

[Bella]

This is beautiful. I was so sure I screwed the town over yesterday, thanks Tammy and Flash for saving my ass.

[Bella]

I agree with Hindu. My modkill was entirely my own fault, and I'm glad Hito handled it in such a way that it didn't affect the outcome of the game for the innocent.