Mafia of the Raptured (Game Over!)

[Tierce]

That's not it, Zdenek.

@whimsical: You recalled mattp saying releasing flavour is a bad idea in your scum pregame qt?

lolwut explain how you arrived at me being scum

Whimsical Eggplant scum = you scum.
This sentence:
Agreed with mattp(town read) that releasing flavor is a bad idea.

Where else could he get that you said releasing flavour is a bad idea?

Well there's a possibility that he's just making up something for a town read on you but i think the first is a higher possibility.

MattP

never said releasing flavor is a bad idea

in this thread

.


Zdenek and Tammy are Town. I want to say Syryana is Town too, though the complaint about people using self-meta is silly. Then he goes and posts Post 56 and I forgive everything.

[Tierce]

Zdenek and Tammy are Town. I want to say Syryana is Town too, though the complaint about people using self-meta is silly. Then he goes and posts Post 56 and I forgive everything.

Why did you even post this?

Because I work off Townreads and he needed to know the puppy picture was appreciated.

Not really interested in the MattP/Whimsical Eggplant pairing, though I like enomis for Town for calling it out.

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

MattP: walk me through it. Where did fferyllt lie/trip up/etc.?

I'm getting somewhat concerned because I can already write a few strong players off as Town and I'm left with a (rather small) list of unknown and/or lurkish people as scum. Tinfoil on page 4, woo.

[Tierce]

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

Want to help me lynch Pjovek? It would fill me with warm feelings inside.

Why do you think he would troll like that as scum and not as Town? He's not an insecure newbie, regardless of his post count in MS.

[Tierce]

implosion and Pjovek are bringing home the bacon.

VOTE: Zachrulez

You're making my notes very, very sad, Zach.

Pushing for a massclaim D1 is a specific situation that has nothing to do with Pjovek's behavior so far. Why are you trying to pin someone else's meta and somegame else's situation on him?


(Pregame QTs exist and Vi games have a tendency to have Daytalk for scum anyway.)


PEdit: Not really for that, it's easy to fake.

[Tierce]

Pjovek--walk me through the thought process of writing Post 16.

[Tierce]

Pjovek--walk me through the thought process of writing Post 16.

Not yet, no.
Suffice to say I was feeling a bit lazy.

Also I'd like to note that I never asked for a massclaim. Just a claim of really minor flavor. Not even rolenames or anything. Really minor. I honestly didn't (and don't) see the harm in it.

My main concern is the inherent risk involved in making a post like that. You appear to be an intelligent player (trolling notwithstanding), and there is an immediate risk that someone

will

think it's not a big deal indeed and start claiming info about their character. I expect you to be aware of this risk--so why take it?

Putting things simply: the scum might know which character is the Apocalypse one. Revealing universes/continuity might help them. Why do you think this is a risk worth taking, either in a trolling form ("let's see who jumps on this!") or genuinely thinking a partial flavor claim is something we should do?


PEdit: I don't see how scum having a fabricated Townread on anyone makes the second person Town.

[Tierce]

A scum-made townread can have basically two motivations: either it's a townread on a scumbuddy to tone down suspicion on him (there was no substantial suspicion on matt at that time, so this is not the case), or it's a "buddying attempt", for lack of a better word. Basically a "look at how cool and correct my reads are, scum would never be this cool and correct"
This specific situation looks more like the second.

I don't think either of them are scum, but I've seen plenty of scum giving their scumbuddies a Townread from the get go. It's easier to prevent suspicion from ever arising than having to fight it back down later.


We have no guarantees there will be more than a character from a given universe. Even if there are multiples, claiming them will still help scum narrow things down, if they have any kind of info in the role in question.

Say Player A claims "Chronicles of Amber", Player B claims "Fire Emblem", Player C claims "Metamafia". If the scum know the Apocalypse role comes from Fire Emblem, they know A and C are likely not to be it and there is a very high chance that B is. It's a risk that is not worth taking for Town, and definitely not just for "fun" or at this stage of the game.

[Tierce]

Pjovek--walk me through the thought process of writing Post 16.

Not yet, no.
Suffice to say I was feeling a bit lazy.

Also I'd like to note that I never asked for a massclaim. Just a claim of really minor flavor. Not even rolenames or anything. Really minor. I honestly didn't (and don't) see the harm in it.

My main concern is the inherent risk involved in making a post like that. You appear to be an intelligent player (trolling notwithstanding), and there is an immediate risk that someone

will

think it's not a big deal indeed and start claiming info about their character. I expect you to be aware of this risk--so why take it?

Putting things simply: the scum might know which character is the Apocalypse one. Revealing universes/continuity might help them. Why do you think this is a risk worth taking, either in a trolling form ("let's see who jumps on this!") or genuinely thinking a partial flavor claim is something we should do?


PEdit: I don't see how scum having a fabricated Townread on anyone makes the second person Town.

Hey Tierce the above consequences you listed are exactly why I'm voting him.

Hey Zach you did not mention this at all. You jumped on him immediately and, when asked, didn't explain your thought process, instead bringing up a completely unrelated situation with no relation to this game and playerlist. Forgive me if I'm not inclined to believe that Zach-Town would not push and prod instead of laying down a vote without any investigative push on your scumread.

Pjovek's request may not (does not) benefit Town, yet you still happily dumped a truckload of someone-else's-meta and somegame-else's-situation on him with no actual thinking from

you

about

this game

and

this player

expressed in it. Dull, boring, lazy, and you're better than that.


PEdit: Probably because it was boring/incomprehensible. Be more entertaining and engaged and I might to do more than skim your posts.

[Tierce]

PEdit: Probably because it was boring/incomprehensible. Be more entertaining and engaged and I might to do more than skim your posts.

I mean, honestly, it's

page 6

and you have an RVS vote on me still. Yawn.

[Tierce]

Do you have a link to Mafia with the Kitties? I lost mine.

http://notmafiascum.forumotion.com/f1-ongoing-games

What was the "question", and is it actually

relevant

to this game?

[Tierce]

I do notice the context you are trying to put my reference of meta into seems to be attempting to make my reference to it look really bad?

It

does

look bad, because you are using someone else's meta to try and apply it to Pjovek. If you want to meta

him

, then by all means. If you want to show your frustration with a similar situation and how it affects your view of the current game because fool me once etc., then by all means. But you are taking the situation out of context, as it is not a similar game (due to the Apocalypse mechanic), the situation is not identical, and the players are not to be expected to act the same way.

I'll think over this some more over'night'.

Are you town? I'm curious.

Yes, and obvious, at that. ^__^

Sorry* about the 3p game.

So Oversoul, there isn't any sort of question, and the link isn't doing anything for you. Mind actually bothering with

this

game, now?

[Tierce]

Power's out at home and my phone battery won't last. Should be fixed by morning.

[Tierce]

Semantics is probably not the word you're looking for. /semantics /pedantry

I haven't really looked at this game overnight, but I kind of hate Syryana parroting and sheeping me.

[Tierce]

Ehhh. You get a pass for now.

UNVOTE: Zachrulez
VOTE: fferyllt

Oversoul: it's pretty obvious that I couldn't be any less interested in discussing game mechanics and parallels with previous games. I'm probably the one player here who is most familiar with what is going in Vi's head re: modding nowadays, and I can tell you that I see nothing in similar with MwtK--because it follows a

theme

? Really now?

That's what a theme game is

. Doesn't make this one anywhere near that game, and the mechanics involved are not going to match. Stop wasting time on that and trying to make vague hints and apply yourself to this game. If I see anything relevant that merits bringing up I'll do so, I don't need you attempting to signal me in a roundabout way.


Don't know if I mentioned it already, but enomis is silly levels of obvTown. (If you're competent scum, then congrats, you're more useful than most Town anyway.)

[Tierce]

Can someone unvote, please? I don't like that wagon, and I especially don't like that L-1 this early into the game.

[Tierce]

Reasoning and speed and this game's mechanics. I don't think he's scum, so.

And considering I'm voting the lady up there and she is more interested on my request for an unvote than on my reasons for voting her, color me intrigued. A word that here means "Hey guys, she really

is

scum!"

[Tierce]

(OTOH, I ask really nicely. And on occasion provide puppy pictures. You have to understand how much that might entice people to do as I ask. /)u@.@u(\)

[Tierce]

All it took was for Tierce to ask nicerly ffery?

pretty much. I don't think one vote (which I'll put back on the wagon if whimsical eggplant's eventual response is underwhelming) makes a huge difference pressure-wise, and removing it mitigates the risk of a derphammer.

Let's make a huge difference pressure-wise here instead, shall we?

[Tierce]

I'm not entirely sure I like how the Tierce and Zach interaction ended. It looks like it was charging up to be something big and then it just ends abruptly.

If I have no more interest in pushing him, I won't continue harping on something. That'd be a ridiculous waste of effort and everyone's patience.

[Tierce]

Pjovek votes are bad.

This, but so is the ridiculousness of that s_o_o's vote. Stop being distracting, P, there was no need to make something that grows into three pages of nonsense.

implosion: I'm around, though kind of busy elsewhere. If there's any way I can help you brainstorm?

[Tierce]

Post 185 and Post 187.

[Tierce]

I only have a cat with a party hat. If you could be more specific, this would probably involve less clawing and yowling.

[Tierce]

Tierce

, how do this games mechanics affect your read on Whimsy and the wagon on her?

They don't affect my read on Whimsy Eggplant. They affect me not being at all interested in risking a lynch this early in the game. The player has

one post

, and there was an absolutely insane jump of votes without even a chance to explain themselves (don't tell me they were active elsewhere--look at the actual content or lack thereof).

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

So what exactly is wrong with L-1, tierce?

Yes Kats there is everything right with putting someone with a single post on L-1 just because they made two meager posts elsewhere. You're absolutely correct, my bad, I should never have spoken up against the recklessness of this wagon.


Has anyone even bothered to look through Whimsical Eggplant's posts outside this game, other than those two? Because I did. The florid, overdone style of writing isn't a particular characteristic of this game, nor is chiding someone on mechanics

on one post

. Yes, he posted twice elsewhere since his (first and) last post here, and there was no follow-up in this game. Hold your horses, dammit. If the player doesn't post, they are due for a replacement at 11 pm Eastern, so if nothing else Vi should have a replacement lined up tomorrow morning.

Lynch the witch purge it with fire omg

two whole posts elsewhere

!

Surprise, I'm already annoyed 12 pages in.


Pjovek: I know Vi's modding style probably better than most anyone else in this game. I don't have full details on battery numbers, but I know that the mod's satisfaction with the thread is a factor. Spam influences it and, as Zach said, it also influences how much stuff the players have to wade through to catch-up/re-read. I'm fairly sure you're the type of player who can keep pointless posts to a minimum, so please don't be stubborn about this and cooperate.


Tammy: if we can get you to see the obvious (hi--I'm Town! ^__^), you, Syryana and I could probably do something awesome with this game.

[Tierce]

Tierce are you only voting ffery for ignoring your initial vote on her?

No, that would be boring.

[Tierce]

Tierce are you only voting ffery for ignoring your initial vote on her?

No, that would be boring.

Indeed. So why then?

That's a dull question. Go look for the answer.

[Tierce]

Oh, and if Whimsical is replaced, we should speed lynch that slot. He signed up for another game, so it's not as though he's avoiding posting because of a general lack of time.

He did not. He asked for (dead) QT access. That's far different. Don't you dare to speedlynch that slot.

And I know you're Town. But I want you (and others) to look for the answer yourself. I want to see your thought process.

[Tierce]

And what magnificent info would we get out of D1 from that Whimsical Eggplant lynch, Zach, other than vague wagon analysis?

Yeah,

nada

. Because the slot hasn't had the chance to interact with anyone. The game started not 72 hours ago. Settle down.


...you only have to meta a couple of games to see that I'm ridiculously obvTown, Zach. Go do that. I'll even tell you that my best scum game ever was my latest one--short as it was--and that it's CES's Doctor Who micro. I'm bleeding Town all over the thread.

[Tierce]

And unfortunately you still don't give a toss about me or try to figure me out.

[Tierce]

I mean, for crying out loud,

Zdenek

is trying to figure out what I'm doing. Why don't you care at all when I'm voting

you

?

[Tierce]

Is that addressed to me?

If so, why do you think that?

Right now, I have a handful of unsupported votes on me. When you tell me why you think I'm scum I'll respond to that.

But you're not even remotely interested in those votes or the fact that they are unexplained. It's mind-boggling. You just don't care, and that doesn't seem natural.

Syryana--I'd like your input here.

And what magnificent info would we get out of D1 from that Whimsical Eggplant lynch, Zach, other than vague wagon analysis?

You'll come to find that the allure of what kind of "information" a lynch yields isn't highly valued by me. My priority is to find scummy players and lynch them for it, get scum flip, rinse, repeat, ect.

...you only have to meta a couple of games to see that I'm ridiculously obvTown, Zach. Go do that. I'll even tell you that my best scum game ever was my latest one--short as it was--and that it's CES's Doctor Who micro. I'm bleeding Town all over the thread.

I'm trying to remember if you actually asked me to do this in Khan mafia.

Well of course, lynching scum is better than anything else. But you're telling me that your best lead in a game with 13 pages is a single post by a player who is likely to flake? Come on.

And checking it just now actually shows I never used the word "meta" in that game.

Oops.

But yes, I've asked people to go meta me in scum games, because it'd be stupid not to try and mimic behavior I know I have as scum. But honestly, my playstyles are still very far from each other as Town and as scum. I was scum three times in sequence after not being scum since

November

. Go look at that stuff, go look at my Town games. There's fresh meta everywhere and there's no reason for you to have any sort of doubt about me because I definitely think I'm one of the most obvious players on the site.

[Tierce]

Let's start with the easy part: explain your Townreads.

[Tierce]

That was not an explanation of Townreads. There's no reasoning evident in any of them except Zdenek. For someone who is slow and deliberate on D1, I would expect to have considerably more on your reads than you appear to have.

[Tierce]

Hey MattP
Why jump off fferyllt now and onto the easiest lynch in the game? Shape it up.

Antagon: Pjovek was trolling on page 1

Zdenek: he probably gave a cursory glance of the thread before replacing in and has a bit more info, but is reading the game in depth. I remember Antagon being very easy to wagon. We all know you're Town, at least give him a chance to show what he's got before putting him on the defensive so much, that'll make him harder to read. PEdit: see, told you he looked at it beforehand.

[Tierce]

I'm on a picnic and would appreciate if nothing stupid was done before I have access to a computer again.

[Tierce]

Big freaking surprise, fferyllt. I'm one of the most easily distinguishable players on the site if people can be bothered to read up on my games.

[Tierce]

There's no bad logic there. You're trying to dodge me, Matt. Please explain your reasoning.

[Tierce]

That was bullshit. Like you would never see a wagon coming and think you are at L-1.

UNVOTE: fferyllt
VOTE: MattP

Syryana, with us.

[Tierce]

MattP: you're telling me that your reaction to having put Antagon at L-1 and ignoring my request for an ACTUAL explanation of why you unvoted fferyllt and voted Antagon (because your post about it focuses on my words and not your reasoning, which makes it crap because there's no reason for you to be arguing with me like that at that point), is to pull a trollish claim, distract everyone and spam a few pages. As Town. Screw that, I don't believe those theatrics are Town-motivated. There was no need for you to interrupt and distract from what was being done, and your reactions in no way indicate that you were trying to read people from it. As a reaction test, it was bullshit, and you know how to make those as Town. It was transparent to the point that you were doing it for Towncred and nothing more. Even in War is Hell you did better than this. I'm not buying the Town intent, but I see a lot of scum motivation in throwing around a random attitude and then claim it was to grab reactions. It's obvious you didn't give a damn about those, and you haven't addressed my points about why you jumped off fferyllt when you did and onto Antagon (and then act like you don't even remember doing it, wtf?). Eat rope.

[Tierce]

I wanted pressure on ffery so I tried to stop distractions

I'm not giving reads, sorry

You're telling me then that the answer to other people trying to get reads on the people you were voting (Antagon and fferyllt) is to be a fucking distraction, because noise helps everyone..

Yeah, ttly buying that. Btw, do you also have a bridge for sale? I'll get the whole pack if you give ma a discount.

You were never really adding any pressure on fferyllt or contributing for the wagon on her by actually convincing people to vote her. I follow you onto fferyllt, and you barely acknowledge me. You're a lump and don't care about the game and your scumreads, and that's not your Town game.

[Tierce]

Ok, so this was a genuine reaction, I think. All that capslock was bullshit.

Lolwut? So I'm genuine town but lying at the same time?

No, I don't think you are lying, not with that reaction.

Why do you think that reaction can't be faked?

Mostly because of how fast the whole exchange happened.

Oh, he's capable of it. He hammered me (his scumbuddy) in Abarat while throwing out a capslock rage fest against me in glee that I was dead and he'd done it, etc., etc. He has a background in theater and improv, I believe, and doesn't take long to learn how to react fast.

[Tierce]

There's no bad logic there. You're trying to dodge me, Matt. Please explain your reasoning.

You're saying it's an "easy" vote as if "easy" and "scummy" are mutually exclusive

I don't like this logic, you know it sucks and you know I wouldn't go for an easy vote like that

Ffery didn't build steam and it was a scare tactic based on a fairly reasonable scummy post from ffery

Since I'm at L-1 I'm going to claim now. I'm a VT, my name is Rosalina, from Mario

ffery didn't build steam because you didn't do crap about it. You have no one to blame but yourself, and now you're back there for what, exactly?

[Tierce]

Also mental note made to never play in a game with tierce again

Doing something terribly stupid and blaming others for it? No. You could be explaining yourself and showing your thought process. But you used more time complaining about your level of interest than explaining any reads or your actions.

If you're Town, I'm incredibly disappointed (and by all means, stay out and don't play with me because I'll happily lynch this crap anytime). Your play has gotten progressively worse throughout the year, but I didn't think you were down to the whiny level of taking your toys and going home instead of fighting for your survival, or explaining the Town motivation behind your behaviors. THIS is your reaction to fucking up and doing something scummy in a trollish manner, and getting voted for it?

Child, please.

[Tierce]

I don't need that kind of argument, Matt. But you're still focusing on the wrong thing. I'm having trouble seeing that coming from Town with limited time who KNEW this game was going to have harsh deadlines. What's with all the smoke screen instead of being useful where you can?

Zach I'm lynching the hell out of you if he flips Town. Stop trying to make him look worse instead of trying to make him be useful.

[Tierce]

It is ridiculous, yes. But this Zhar-ptitsa is already :Justice: enough for one game and I am STILL trying to understand his mindset. You're not; you're adding more wood to the fire, and it bothers me.

[Tierce]

No, Matt, you are not trying to get ffery lynched. How could you be doing so when your pushes are weak and you don't show your reasoning? Not drawing scum doesn't mean you get worse at pushing Town to do what you want, it just makes you a potentially worse scumhunter. But you expect SEVEN people to echo and sheep you on fferyllt out of nothing, even when you're asked to do more about it? No, that's not a push for a lynch. I had three scum games in a row after not drawing scum since November, and I had forgotten nothing about efficiently pushing wagons since the last time I was scum. It didn't take me those scum games to realize I need to do SOMETHING to get my scumreads lynched, which is what you are saying has essentially happened to you. I don't doubt you feel your Towngame has decreased in quality due to a lack of scum counterpoint, I doubt that THIS would be affected to the point you do shitty plays and then utterly refuse to explain them or your reads so that they become useful should you be lynched and flip Town. You're having an unpragmatical approach that doesn't jive with your reduced time, and have yet to address my issues with what you've done.

Zach: when did you decide I am Town?

[Tierce]

Zach: when did you decide I am Town?

Where do you get that conclusion?

The way you've been treating me.

Matt--you're still trying to antagonize me when I'm doing everything in my power to try and understand your PoV. If you're Town, stop being antagonistic and work with me, I've shown plenty of interest to try and figure you out and you keep dodging. Can you point me to the reasoning behind the claim and the reasoning behind the fferyllt vote, then? I don't see them. And what was your reasoning for the Antagon vote?

Pushing her with little reasoning here didn't work, and so you decided to troll instead in a way that was not conducive to scumhunting and getting quick solid scumreads. I still don't get the Town logic behind that plan, or the Town logic to claim in this game with the Apocalypse mechanic. It's bothering me a lot, because it couldn't be plainer that I am trying to understand where you're coming from, but you refuse to cooperate under a guise of anger. If this is a pattern you've noticed in your Towngames, I'd expect you to be taking some sort of action to compensate, but what I see is you getting more antagonistic and refusing to contribute when I'm RIGHT HERE asking you to help me understand you. Please.

[Tierce]

Oh and Tierce, how reliably do you think you're able to read me based on meta? The answer to this is important to me.

Not much. My main thing on you was when you clearly jumped from being interested in just one thing or two to having a more spread focus, which matched with your schedule opening up. I liked it, and I like how promptly it happened, without a lot of fuss about that in specific. You began participating more when I pushed you, and THEN had that. I like that they don't match exactly in time, feels natural as Town response to pressure + Town response to more time to put into the game.

On meta, not really a lot. The only game I had with you when we were both Town was YOLOville, and I didn't have to worry much since you were confTown after a bit. My doubts are mostly based on Sottynoia, so you can thank her for it. >.>

[Tierce]

I had three scum games in a row, Zach.

THREE.

If you think we have similar metas--well, that is my personal hell. Drawing scum again and again and again. True, I wasn't lynched (!) and somehow won all three, but still... Any look around the site will show you that I hate playing scum and that I have a poor opinion of my scum game. It's quite probably not all warranted, as I know I can plan well as scum, and I do know my scum game has been improving a bit as I learn to focus on my strengths. But it is still deeply unnatural for me, I still have very little confidence, and I think every scum game of mine outside CES's Doctor Who micro drips scum intent. Maybe it's me, because I know my own flaws--but there is a group of players who have little to no issue reading me (Regfan, Tammy, Empire), so I know it's not JUST me being aware of the differences in meta. My meta (and theirs, actually) being pretty easy to differentiate doesn't make other people's meta easy to differentiate. If only; that would make my life so much easier. But I do think I am obviously Town here, both from meta and from my play. I understand where your paranoia comes from (would have been bothered if there was no paranoia from you after Khan's 3p), but seriously. Even my best latest scum game (that Doctor Who micro) has glaring differences. And no, being aware of those differences doesn't mean I can easily incorporate them in my meta, I would have done so months ago if it were easy.

[Tierce]

Drawing scum actually makes it stupid easy to spot Towntells on people, at least for me. But it's usually not a good meta experience for the future, because you're not really trying to figure out those people's alignment and so your meta read will be all funky. I go on detail about this when reading Konowa on MoI's Dresden Files Mafia, in the Mason QT (it's posted on the thread). That's why my meta read on you sucks--there's Paranoia, YOLOville, the 3p... and I was scum in two of them and barely had to figure you out on the other one. Admittedly, I haven't really meta'd you further, because guess what, I was scum the last time we played together and was bullshitting my way through the game. Either way, you're not a priority.

[Tierce]

Actually not true. Go read more Empire games.

[Tierce]

hp, when do you pan on actually contributing to the game?

[Tierce]

Oh, English.

s/pan/plan

[Tierce]

You're conveniently fencesitting on the two major options, hp. Bravo.

Reads, please. There are over 20 pages, it shouldn't be hard for you to form opinions and share them, when you've clearly read through stuff already.

[Tierce]

Syryana is V/LA right now. He saw me as Town as Sixty in Micro 134; we died just as he replaced in, or as close as to make no difference.

[Tierce]

That's not "never". He replaced in on N1, and read the game through the Night phase. You'll see he was paranoid of our slot for looking too Town and was rather relieved when we died.

massive dump truck of obvtown that Tierce graced us with

As a general rule I suspect people that bury me in avalanches of obvtown. Thank God Tierce is dead; I'd have more people to suspect.

I actually had intended on saying originally that Sixty and CES were my top suspects (Sixty for all the obvtown, CES because of, well, I'm not going over that again). Then Sixty went and got themselves killed, spoiling that perfectly good paranoia theory.

Almost saved Sixty too, I coin flipped between you and them N1 and Sixty lost. Poor Sixty. N2 I knew they'd go after you, you were the most obvtown person here.

Syryana has also seen me as scum twice now, and on that I shall refer to the

I am blatantly obvious as scum

commentary above. His Post 93 was fine, and I gather it's actually part joke anyway since I was joking about post 56.

[Tierce]

Would also lynch Kats.

So many choices, so few bullets.

[Tierce]

The interaction with Tammy and the way he drops her to pursue other things.

[Tierce]

Antagon, claim. For someone who is busy with school, you have had plenty of chances to be active on the site. This game is not a priority of yours.

Regardless of this flip, MattP dies next.

[Tierce]

lol I thought an early vanilla claim as Town would make me look like Town as Town

Yeah no, Matt. Total bullshit.

[Tierce]

Oversoul any time you feel like not being useless it'd be great. Either shape up or get out. Sideline posts that have nothing to do with the game and zero content are ridiculous.

Katsuki is probably Town if Antagon is scum. MattP is scum regardless. Actually rather nice pile of Townreads if -things-, so etc.

[Tierce]

You would, wouldn't you?

Quite willing to lynch you if Antagon flips Town.

[Tierce]

I'd like you to make a full step by step analysis of everything I've done from a scum standpoint rather than just say you don't believe me

Yeah, no. I have better things to do with my time, and by now it's obvious I don't want

you

lynched right now, so bugger off. I don't have to make a pretty case for you. It's also obvious what's the scum intent in an early VT claim, and there isn't an inch of Town intent in claiming at that point in a game with the Apocalypse mechanic.

Where are your Townreads? Where's that supposedly awesome post that was to come last Night?

[Tierce]

I claim Poo from EarthBound. For some reason, I can use teleportation as kind of a JK/Ascetic type role. If I target a player, no actions can be taken by

either

player. No actions can affect either player, unless my target decides to kill me.
Yeah, I don't really understand how my role works.

Who is

either

? How do you have multiple targets?

[Tierce]

Antagon, how do you know your role is an Ascetic/JK mix? Have you ever played/seen an Ascetic in play?

[Tierce]

The first post you quoted was for Matt, not for you. But yes, I want to see actual content from you.

I need to think on this some, and busy atm, so don't do anything stupid for the next few hours, you bloodthirsty lot.

[Tierce]

Keep ignoring me and seeing if it goes away.

[Tierce]

I think I'd like to discuss a few things in-thread with you, Tammy, but tonight I am far too scatterbrained and occasionally busy. How's tomorrow evening looking for you?

[Tierce]

I don't like her asking for that claim at lynch -2. I'm not denying that there was a good chance we'd get there eventually, but it's the fact that she did it, at lynch -2 and did it without voting him herself.

fferyllt had declared intent to vote and I was strongly considering voting him at that point. I don't want people put at L-1 without good reason this early in this game, as we saw when I asked that that slot be brought down from L-1 a few days ago.

[Tierce]

I can quite see Vi having strong PRs on either side in this game. I still have to mull on this one for a while, so it'll keep until tomorrow.

Yeah I don't have a good argument against that reasoning Tierce, just a strict metagame view that players should be asked to claim at lynch -1 under imminent threat of hammer. It's probably not a reasonable view when people like Benmage who hammer for the hell of it are playing mafia now that I think about it though.

I wouldn't ask for a claim willy-nilly regardless of my alignment. It's actually a pretty null action from me--it was a cold, logical decision at that point, so while I can say there wasn't scum intent, there wasn't a clearly visible Town motivation in it either because I'd do it like that anyway. (Actually, I

might

have put him at L-1 as scum. Don't know; my alignment is obvious anyway and I have better things to do than figure out what I'd do as scum in these circumstances.)

It wasn't so much Benmage-style players here, as people in OMG KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT mode *coughZdenekcough*. Relax, Z. Have a drink or three. The Day's not going to deadline, but you're tunneling quite fiercely there.

[Tierce]

Tammy--I still want to go over things with you and Syryana, but apparently didn't sleep well tonight. Coffee + shaking myself awake means it will still be a few hours before I can read through attentively and get something useful out, so it probably won't work out in real time.

[Tierce]

Antagon did not softclaim anything (he was talking about the Apocalypse mechanic, which means it makes sense for some roles to be somewhat more powerful), and it's pretty understandable if he got the mechanic definition wrong. It doesn't make it Night for the rest of the game, but it makes it Instant Night and very fast Days.

As I said before: Vi games usually have daytalk for scum.

And another tidbit: Vi tends to provide full fakeclaims; even if they don't include the role, they tend to hint toward what can be fakeclaimed from it (see Mafia Through a Puppy's Eyes, for example; the pillow fakeclaim was just a flavor claim, but it hinted heavily at "this is a fakeclaim for a roleblocker/jailkeeper"). The role is elaborate enough that it makes sense from Vi (either as a real claim or as a fakeclaim, and Zdenek--if it is a Vi-provided fakeclaim, it's going to make sense in the setup, so stop with the "omg overpowered kill it kill it" cries), though I would also like to know what is the actual role name.

A Vi game would have a few ways of getting around such a role for scum, if it is a Town role. Don't worry your pretty little heads about it being an overpowered claim.

[Tierce]

post_id=5037159 time=1371371658 user_id=10128 post_num=698]Do Vi games include fakeclaim abilities? As in, they send in a role and Vi sends them back a role PM for that.

Not that I know of.

[Tierce]

Yeah, actual read-through isn't going to happen before I sleep again. Sorry, Tammy. Brain is complete mush.

[Tierce]

I actually had a specific lightbulb situation in mind when I requested a claim from Antagon, ZZdenek. Feel free to think what you will. At this point, I'm fine with fferyllt not being lynched; and when I asked for a claim, Antagon was my favorite lynch.

Oversoul: read two posts above from that one. I'm answering hp about his question re: softclaiming the Apocalypse role. Reading posts in context is your friend.

[Tierce]

Oversoul, what the heck is with the pointless questions without looking at the original format of the posts they are in? Now with me, earlier on this page with s_o_o regarding Pjovek... it looks like you're trying to fake interest without actually going back to check what happened by yourself, and that you're happy enough to let others push things without providing your opinion.

[Tierce]

Zachrulez (1) ~ implosion
Pjovek (1) ~ sword_of_omens
hp [leaves] (1) ~ Zachrulez

Not Voting: fferyllt, Antagon

I hate the reasoning for the vote.

I also have no idea what these people think they are doing.

[Tierce]

Done fighting that lynch. I don't agree with it and I seriously think Antagon is going to flip Town, but there's no way he's not going to end up lynched sooner or later. Don't forget to lynch MattP afterward.

[Tierce]

when I asked for a claim, Antagon was my favorite lynch.

What happened since to make you think he's town?

Tammy, I think if pjovek was scum and was playing like that he would have been too invested in the game to vanish like that.

The claim seems legitimate and my lightbulb moment has fizzled out without much ado.

[Tierce]

The claim obviously has something to do with his alignment. He's essentially an Alien, and Aliens aren't much use to scum.

If you needed to know about my lightbulb moment's specifics, you would.


I'll trad a Townreadish for a nullread any day of the week. I think the bussing premise is wrong, but.

UNVOTE: MattP
VOTE: hp [leaves]

[Tierce]

I feel like Tierce got busted changing her read on Antagon for a bad reason and is floundering to try to justify it.

Or Tierce is tired and isn't much worth. Come on. I've changed tracks on this read too many times to be either scum pushing a mislynch or Antagon's scumbuddy trying desperately to protect him; there is literally no Towncred for me in this situation, and I clearly don't give a damn about it anymore. Yes, I would rather Antagon wasn't lynched, because I think he's Town. Yes, I'm tired of protecting a slot that will be lynched the moment I die. I'm compromising because I won't get my lynch, and on top of it I have to put up with you reeving up the tunnel car. I know what's coming and I have neither the patience nor the good will to endure it for longer than necessary, because I know I'm really damn obvious Town and you'll never see it anywhere. :hitoshrug:

I didn't remember the roleblocking part, I was just thinking of the protection + self-commuter.

[Tierce]

The problem I have with the claim is the description of it being an ascetic/jailkeeper role. Ascetics can't be targeted by roles but can be killed. So, I'm lost on that part of the description.

This wasn't Vi's description, it was Antagon's approximation; if Vi used a role name for this (which Vi doesn't always do), it would probably have been (Modified) Alien/Abductor/etc. I can vouch that Vi knows what Aliens do (it was actually a mentioned point in Skype Mafia a few weeks ago, because of the Alien faction in Greater Idea, etc.), but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't the role name in question/the role did not have a name, especially since the target can kill Antagon.

This was the reason I originally asked Antagon to explain the Ascetic/Jailkeeper bit and the reason I supported him sharing his role name.

With that said--Zach, I'm exhausted. Yes, the role is useful to scum. But for Town, it would, say, save a Town-Apocalypse role if the role had to claim and Antagon wasn't roleblocked. (Tar-Vi action resolutions may have roleblockers resolving before commuters and all that dance.) If, say, a scum player falsely claims that role and is protected by a claimed Poo, he knows he just has to shoot Poo to remove that role from the game.

It's entirely possible, and likely, that such a role is Town. Yes, it has characteristics that help scum. But Vi wouldn't be above putting a scummy looking role as Town. Heck, look at Mafia in the Backroom--there was a Town Godfather. Role speculation is not likely to help you this early, and that's why I pretty much hissed at Oversoul to leave me alone when he decided that this game Must Have Obvious Parallels To Other Vi Games And Oh My Bread Tierce Should Be Seeing Them--it might, but good luck figuring them out on D1. I'd much rather scumhunt than be bogged by that on the thread; there'll be a time for tinfoil.

That, and I am not entirely unconvinced that this game's sole purpose is to troll me with a revolution on Vi meta.

...This was a lot ramblier than I wanted it to be. Me -> bed.

[Tierce]

Tierce has been weak sauce recently trying to get the wagon she was voting for.
Her comment about not liking my vote also doesn't carry the same bravado that I think she would have if she was town.

Actually that's not half bad. I still don't like the vote's reasoning, but you get a pass from this read.

Let's face it: MattP is not getting lynched Day 1 with this playerlist (he's still scum and needs lynched soon), and amid bad sleep + busy days + random stuff I haven't been putting in as much effort as I should/could. The same applies to your vote, but frankly,

you

are generally an easy lynch and I'm not that interested in lynching you. You're probably Town and you're likely to be among the lynched in this game anyway, so I want you to shape it up. I was noting that I didn't like the vote, but if I really thought you were scum for it I would have slammed you then and there.

[Tierce]

My soul was destroyed by three scumgames in a row.

I didn't.
It's the cat, isn't it. That party hat isn't fooling anyone.

[Tierce]

hp--I'm really sorry for the situation where you live, but you were aware of it when you signed up for this game. Don't use your access issues as an appeal to emotion and activity level.

[Tierce]

It's a compromise lynch for me, which you'd see if you read my posts. I'm not happy about it either, but we need content from you and aren't getting nearly enough.

[Tierce]

Tomorrow. Curious about that lynch threshold Yesterday and obviously didn't expect to not have more than 72h to devote to this game Today, but--well. Obvious busy-ness is kind of obvious if you're not colorblind, so give me a few hours and I'll deliver when possible.

(Zach dying was a HUGE relief on my paranoia, by the by.)

[Tierce]

Tierce - I don't think Antagon aligned, but I also don't think she's town.

God help you if you ever do read me as Town, hmm?

That stands for you and for the missing Oversoul "pocket scumread on Tierce omg" read that has been eaten by tigers. You're probably both Town and it's so sad to see that you're utterly incapable of reading me when I'm Town. :hitoshrug:

Now excuse me, I have to go be a Jade

again

.

[Tierce]

I'm not really sure what universe you people are living in. Antagon flipped town, not scum.

That stands for you and for the missing Oversoul "pocket scumread on Tierce omg" read that has been eaten by tigers. You're probably both Town and it's so sad to see that you're utterly incapable of reading me when I'm Town. :hitoshrug:

Now excuse me, I have to go be a Jade

again

.

Tierce, you worry me. Who are your current main suspects?

I will present that long overdue case I owe you lot by night's end.

That was a troll flip. Look at the bottom of the post, Antagon was scum.

And I really have no suspects right now. In case you haven't noticed, I have been crazy busy elsewhere on the site. Tonight was supposed to be Not Busy with having read the game today, but tigers are why we can't have nice things.


PEdit: I doubt it. I'll see what Google has, but it usually takes a day or two to crawl a site's new pages.

[Tierce]

No dice on Google caches, sorry.

[Tierce]

Actually, I do have a couple of specific posts. Incoming.

[Tierce]

Here's the thing, I've voted many times without it being a doublevote so it would have to be a ghost vote. And if it was indeed a separate vote sent in to the mod then there's no reason why I'm more likely than anyone else to have done it, except for the fact that it looks very fishy for me and therefore it's actually less likely that I would have done it over someone else trying to fuck me over.

I also tried to stop the HP wagon yesterday for the Antagon wagon when I was already free for the day, I don't see how you can derive an scum motivation from the arc of my play yesterday. And it wasn't even like I was like "NO ANTAGON IS SCUM KILL HIM" proving I had some sort of pre-knowledge of his role, I was very hesitant to act and I tried giving amrun time to catch up before acting to make sure everything was in order

My play objectively hasn't been scummy. But WIFOM WIFOM blabla, I'm saying if I were another player looking in I'd like to think sans bias I currently have I'd be townreading my slot right now

Also Tierce you should tell me what you think of my slot given the Antagon scum flip

[Tierce]

Let's see:
I still think that Antagon called MattP town to copy Oversoul's read on Matt, and to appear town. This doesn't have too much bearing on Matt's alignment - I'd say it makes him slightly more likely to be town, but that's just gut - but I think it makes Oversoul very likely to be town.

I think that Antagon's entry into the game and his scum read on Pjovek was a convenient read that he copied from SoO to appear town, since SoO didn't get much heat for that read when he replaced in. So SoO is likely town.

While it's not inconceivable for Tierce to be aligned with Antagon, I think that the way her read on him developed strongly suggests that they aren't buddies. With the second kill though, I think she is a strong candidate for an SK or member of another scum team.

I think that ffreyllt's quick unvote of Eggplant at Tierce's request makes her somewhat unlikely to be a buddy of Antagon. Her play at the end of the day yesterday also makes her look to me like she's not a buddy of Antagon - she was defending hp [leaves] based on her read of bungles, and saying that she thinks Antagon looks bad. I think that if she was a buddy of Antagon under these circumstances she would have voted him. It could be scum trying to stay off the wagon and hoping that it swings the other way, but that is something that I'd prefer to consider later, since I am gut-reading that slot as town.

Implosion's fence sitting on Antagon looks bad, but I still sort of agree with MattP that the change of reads that he made looks townie. When he comments that he is worried about tunneling he looks townie to me. While I'm iffy here, I don't think he would be a good lynch today.

I like that Katsuki immediately jumped out and voted Whimsy. I also like his suspicion of Syryana.

So we've got:

Do not want to lynch:
fferyllt
implosion
Katsuki
MattP
Oversoul
Amrun
sword_of_omens


Which leaves:
hp [leaves]
Syryana
Tammy
Tierce

I'll sort through these last four now.

[Tierce]

Syryana
Tammy
Tierce

My my, how the tables have turned

hmmm?

---

rather I don't think those 4 are all scum.

I first of all have a definite townread on Tammy, a definite non-scumread on Tierce (if I'm going to ignore her nonsensical push off of Antagon yesterday), and a moderate townread on Syryana

I just wanna watch them squirm [:

And this is what the last votecount looked like:

~Vote Count XXIX

hp [leaves] (3) ~ Zdenek, Amrun, implosion
MattP (3) ~ Tammy, hp [leaves], Katsuki

Not Voting: fferyllt, MattP, Oversoul, sword_of_omens, Syryana, Tierce

[Tierce]

(Still earning that title~)

[Tierce]

Smooth Operator isn't my title, dahling. You're much too young to remember the last tiger strike.

hp [leaves] - scum
-Mr. Bungle didn't comment on Whimsy.
- [leave]'s comment "I wonder if matt will change her claim when she gets near to lynch" really doesn't sit well with me. It's an expression that he is suspicious of Matt, but there is no vote, and he's not made it clear that he's read anything at that moment. Later he says that Matt is a policy lynch for him, which is a strange change of mindset.
- his anger at the end of the day yesterday seems contrived based on his activity level in the game.

I agree with most/all of this. And it's the general... posturing tone of him. Especially that comment about MattP. There's really no reason for a Town player to make that comment, it's pointlessly incensing something, trying to paint MattP negatively while not contributing to figuring it out.

But I'm not ready to vote. Will keep an eye on this thread throughout the night, but for now excuse me.

[Tierce]

If by "rather important" you mean he voiced a "pocket scumread on Tierce", that was it. And to that I say that Oversoul is incapable of reading me as anything but scum, so~

[Tierce]

My read on you is irrelevant for my opinion on that post.

[Tierce]

Tierce I am curious how I went from "shape up you easy lynch even if you are town" to "sigh misreading me probably town" without ever really doing much in the mean time?

One doesn't invalidate the other? At all?

But I'm clearly too busy to bother giving you the time of day, so by all means, have fun with that ridiculous paranoia. (>")>

[Tierce]

I also thought Tierce was probable scum since it seemed like she had hidden knowledge of Antagon's alignment

?

Oh, there was another thing.

My lightbulb moment might as well be clarified now. I had thought that there was a larger-than-zero chance of the Apocalypse role actually being scum, and wanted to see what Antagon would claim because at the time I thought he was scum being bussed.

He was scum and was probably being bussed (though anyone who thinks I am scum with him and was doing that ridiculous read-change dance with a scumbuddy who wasn't even a PR seriously needs their scumhunting checked), but checking through that won't be today.


PEdit: ...so your role PM shows you as Town in

green

and you get confused? How is it surprising that (all) others

don't

get confused on seeing "Town troll flip -> actual evil-looking non-Town-color flip" and make the "oh, he was scum" connection?


PEdit2: Two scum teams in a game this size with this mechanic would be horribly scumsided. Don't be ridiculous.

[Tierce]

15p with short days, one more scum faction to hit the Apocalypse role at Night, and at least four scum to make it 11:2:2? No. Makes no sense. Now there MIGHT be a second anti-Town power, but I doubt it's more than one person, if anything.

I was expecting red for scum

Not necessarily, particularly in a Vi game that may (or not (!), see theory of Vi making this game just to meta-troll me) have a Tarhalindur role. Which I was expecting to be the Apocalypse role, but that would be far too simple.

(It's probably one of the scum.)

[Tierce]

post_id=5053220 time=1372061807 user_id=10128 post_num=893]Antagon flipping scum really implies Matt being scum

How and why?

[Tierce]

post_id=5054283 time=1372106199 user_id=10128 post_num=906]also I bet you'd believe my case on mattif it came from Adel (who I took the idea from)

And why are you taking ideas on cases from someone else? What in this game makes it look like Adel's cases would be a good fit?

[Tierce]

post_id=5054335 time=1372107511 user_id=10128 post_num=912]Jeez, next time you'll be yelling at me for saying IIoA

What's with the defensiveness here? I'm not acusing you of anything on this point, I'm trying to figure out why you thought that

case-making by Adel

(those were your words, you called it Adel's

tells

later and that changes it somewhat) was something this game would benefit from.

[Tierce]

2. A scum member used a “hidden vote” to lynch their teammate . This could make sense...hp and Antagon were the leading wagons...Antagon shows to have flipped “Abyss Vanilla” so he could have been the better choice to get rid of for their team if they knew that one or the other was getting lynched…this would most likely make hp certain scum though, as there really would have been no reason for scum to “secretly” get rid of one of their own, especially if the competing wagon was town.
3. A second scum team used a “hidden vote” to save a team mate from getting lynched, and/or to lynch a possible town PR…while this could also be the case, I find it highly unlikely…yes there were 2 kills, but in a small game like this, if we have 2 teams killing every night then that would make this game extremely scum-sided, I would think…

Scenario #2 makes the most sense...again, town would most likely come forward, especially since Antagon flipped scum..and i really do not see 2 scum teams in this small of a game...

I agree with you, which is why I am increasingly more puzzled that Amrun is insisting on #3 and barely (if at all) considering #2, especially when the game is not that large and has a mechanic that punishes Town on lynches (mustering votes to lynch on 72h may not always be easy). OTOH, I don't think that makes Amrun scum, because I've known her to have really freaking terrible logic + blinders as Town + insisting that her way is the only possible way. Shrug, etc.

TL;DR: I'll probably end up voting hp[leaves] at the end of the Day. Still haven't gone through stuff, though.

[Tierce]

Your sidesniping is unappreciated and unwarranted, though I'm unsure if you're trying to sling mud and plant seeds or just plain rude. Because I've known you to do THAT as either alignment.

I'm not doing things for you to "appreciate" them, I'm trying to figure out if your behavior and reads are indicative of Town or scum. I don't care if you think I'm rude, my goal is not to make the game

nice

for you, my goal is to lynch scum, and if pointing out failures in your scumhunting that I've seen in multiple instances helps me rationalize your behavior as one alignment or another, I'm not going to refrain from doing it. There's a big difference between pointing out what I don't like in your playstyle and what I don't like in

you

, and you should realize that before you start acting offended about me trying to understand your play and its idiosyncrasies.

[Tierce]

b) You weren't even attempting to draw conclusions. If you had been, that would have been quite different. What you actually said was "this is a null tell."

Oh okay because this isn't a legitimate conclusion. Right. Especially when you follow it up by saying that you think what

I

did is alignment-null--your conclusion is acceptable but mine isn't? See above on how your way must always be the one and only correct perception of things. It's not, and I'm going to judge your play for potential indications of alignment. If the conclusion I get to is

null

, I'm fairly sure I am still going to bring it up because I think that conclusion is important.

I'm done indulging that line of thought. As I said, I don't care if you think I'm rude, and you can't tell when people are addressing your play and not you. I'm not interested in your ranting, and I have far better things to do than deliberately getting a rise out of you, because then you act emotional and irrational in a way I cannot figure out alignment. So no, I wasn't doing that, but I am blunt and honest and not going to sugarcoat things for you or anyone.

[Tierce]

...So you think that I, as SK, one of the most vulnerable roles in the game (don't I know it, look how I handled kills in New Age Mafia II--i.e.

didn't perform them

once I hit the same targets as the scum TWICE, thus letting me pass unknown for the rest of the game), would have absolutely blundered on my read on Antagon and flipped back and forth on it like there's no tomorrow.

I'm a pragmatical player. That would have been incredibly

stupid

as either scum or SK.

There is not a hint of cred in it for me.

During the Night, I pretty much called any kind of suspicion on me Today out of Antagon's scum flip Yesterday, but seriously, look at how things unfolded and you'll realize it's ridiculous.

Of

course

Oversoul asks for a vig kill on me. We couldn't have it otherwise. :hitoshrug:


Hey Matt--weren't you calling me Town just now? What happened?

[Tierce]

Vig kill; possibly SK shot. There was enough suspicion on Zach at the end of the Day that it makes sense as a vig shot. enomis was Town to everyone, that's not a surprising kill, but I'm fairly certain that Zach wasn't killed by mafia. Sad as it is, because he's an excellent player, but I'd call it far more likely to be vig (SK

maybe

) than mafia.

[Tierce]

Oh, also--Vi is all for killing third-parties with non-SK wincons. Look at Duplicity's role in Maf.Maiden. It's entirely possible the ghost voter is mafia, but yes, being third party would be very much within Vi-realms of game design.

[Tierce]

Zdenek, I'm going to kill your Tierce-is-an-SK-ghost-voter theory right here.

Can someone unvote, please? I don't like that wagon, and I especially don't like that L-1 this early into the game.

It was the same person, and he was at L-1 here. I could have ghost-voted him, and asked for people to unvote. He would have been hammered secretly, and I would have gained far more cred.

If we hypothesize that I am a ghost-voter, you're saying that I didn't do this, and instead

deliberately

let the Day drag onto a situation that was far more awkward for me with a flip-flopping read until the end. Even if you go with the WIFOM of "Tierce didn't do it so she could talk about it later on", it's pretty damn obvious that if I was a ghost-voting SK, I then let the Day derail into a stupidly awkward situation for

me

. That makes no sense from the perspective of Tierce-SK, and should be plenty of proof that I am neither aligned with Antagon nor with any non-Town power.

Case closed, end of story, stop being paranoid. Foxes look appalling in tinfoil hats.

[Tierce]

I think you and maybe one other person were the only ones to suspect zach. I DON'T think any good vig would target him on night 1, even if they suspected him peripherally. It's not OUT OF THE QUESTION, I just find it unlikely.

You're saying this in a game with Oversoul advocating a vig shot on

me

on D2, when I am a player with a very distinct Town and scum meta who he has played with

multiple times

and has no idea how to read anyway.

With another playerlist I might agree with you. With this one, my theory of Zach being a non-mafia kill stands. I can't believe that

enomis

wasn't killed by some flavor of scum, and it was very probably mafia due to him being the first to ride Whimsical Eggplant to the gallows.


PEdit: Feh, essentially the same thing. If you want to call me an SK who was stupidly awkward Yesterday when 1) my scumplay has been slowly improving and 2) I am better at independent than mafia, then go ahead. But SKs survive by mixing in with the crowd, and flip-flopping on a read is not going to do that regardless of how the person flips.

[Tierce]

Hey Matt--weren't you calling me Town just now? What happened?

You did not answer my question. Removing me from your scumreads doesn't explain why I was ever there.

[Tierce]

I think asserting that you wouldn't flip flop on reads as scum is a little strange, Tierce, since I've seen you do that But, regardless, I think the likelihood of you being scum with Antagon is low, and don't have any interest in lynching you.

On D1? With no Towncred gained from it? Where's the pragmatical view behind that? I may not be CES, but I know when and where to cut my losses with a buddy. I would have bussed vanilla scum like there's no tomorrow/Tomorrow if that looked like the way the wind was blowing. So I'm not Antagon's buddy and if I'm a mysterious third party with some love for the limelight via failweak reads, I am not ye old hammering ghost voter. So there you have it.

Whinging session done. Back to my spreadsheet pile; call me when you have an interesting paranoia theory.

[Tierce]

It happened when I said, "brb changing all my reads", about the time where I also had a flip of reads on HP and ffery. Can't miss it

This still doesn't

explain

anything, dahling. Why was I a scumread of yours?

[Tierce]

incidentally, i am also of the opinion that speculation about the second nightkill/ghosthammer is silly. I don't think any particular theory is more likely than any other. Vi may have a meta of not including multiple scumteams, but i also think Vi is the kind of mod who would subvert their meta as a mod for the sake of subverting their meta as a mod.

It's not that Vi has a meta of not multiballing, it's that this is a

small

Large game with a Town-punitive mechanic. How many outraged Town players do you want at the end of the game saying your setup was unbalanced?

That's why I think that there is only one mafia team, and that if there is a third party, it might well not be a pure SK. That is irrelevant at this point for figuring out Today's lynch, but it doesn't mean it doesn't merit some discussion, especially when some people have apparently decided that Other Theories mean I make sense as scum, when it should be blindingly obvious that I'm Town. Call me biased, but I want to show why those theories don't make sense. As long as the game isn't subsumed by

that

, it is a worthwhile discussion.


PEdit: I don't give a fig if you're drunk or sober, Matt. You know you have 72 hours for the whole Day. I'm catching up on a lot of Jadework and I'm still here. You're drinking past midnight on a Monday? Not my problem, good for you, etc. Regardless, I want answers to the stances you've presented.

[Tierce]

I dont have work tomorrow because I worked on Sinday? Regardles you can check the chat logs to see if you are going to be skeptical about it lol'

I'll go into my thoughts tomorrow, idgaf about 772 hr does, I'm not going to not drink for the next month because of a mafia game

As I said, I don't give a toss about your schedule. I give a very many tosses about you putting out reads, 180ing on them, and then not explaining either the change or the source. The time you put in justifying your behavior could have been put into a few sentences explaining why the reads are changing.

[Tierce]

...

You were calling me Town yesterday,

when you weren't drunk

. And now you're suddenly incapable of producing that evidence? When I'm drunk, my reasoning may become poorer, but I don't outright forget what caused said reasoning. You were calling me Town yesterday and today, then planted me on the scumpile, then called me Town again. You were comfortable enough with your state that you made these two changes and posted about them, but now you're too far gone to attempt to justify yourself when asked? Including for rationale

before you were drunk

?

[Tierce]

Because mattp's play, as scum, would be terribad. And that is not Matt.

Allow me to disagree and say that MattP was p. terrible scum in Abarat 2. I might be biased because I knew his alignment, but it was definitely not stellar.

[Tierce]

Never mind. Tierce actually hasn't voted once this day. I mistook her vote from yesterday as one for today.
Tiere why have you been so useless today

Begging your pardon? You're the one who says he can't muster the willpower to read things through. I am up to date with the present state of the game, and I am not voting because I don't need to be voting. I can drop a hammer before deadline if need be, but I see no need to rush what is already a short Day. What is more, you know PERFECTLY well why and how I'm busy elsewhere, so this kind of remark is ridiculous and doesn't show an inch of care about reading the many posts I've written Today. Bugger off and go be useless elsewhere.


Zdenek: if you don't think constant flip-flopping on a read is blundering said read... again, I am clearly not aligned with Antagon and I'm clearly not an anti-Town ghost voter of any kind. I wish you'd understand that, because you're frigging exhausting to play with when you put the blinders on; there is really strong, solid evidence that I don't fit as anything but Town. Have you read me as Town ONCE outside Author Mafia? I doubt it.
Don't rush these last hours, there's no need.

[Tierce]

Syryana - why no followup to my reply to your 853?

[Tierce]

You're a cruel, mean person.

Fairly sure I'm pretty obviously inclined to vote hp[leaves].

[Tierce]

I did some VCA. One thing that's making me uneasy about the hp lynch is Antagon's actions. I've not meta'd Antagon so I don't know how he plays, but I find it unlikely that he would bus at L-2.

Isn't that the time you would want to bus? To make your partner look like a vulnerable Town counterwagon?


PEdit: No, you are NOT hammering. Why the heck do you want to stifle discussion when we still have almost 9 hours and I've said I'm hammering before deadline if need be?

[Tierce]

I didn't read anything other than deadline was at 4:20 EDT and I don't know what EDT means

So

Your answer to not knowing what EDT is when the deadline is on the title as

tomorrow

is to 1) not ask anyone 2) not google it and instead 3) plant an hammer threat.

There's something very wrong with this picture, and that someone is you.

[Tierce]

Tierce, how does a hammer stifle discussion?

I actually forgot this was Instant Night. But why do you condone rushing the Day?

[Tierce]

Tierce, how does a hammer stifle discussion?

I actually forgot this was Instant Night. But why do you condone rushing the Day?

Well I never explicitly condoned it (although i will now) because it absolutely isn't rushing the day when we have about 8 hours to deadline. 8 hours is 1/9 of the day, which is approximately equivalent to hammering with a day and a half left in deadline in a 2-week deadline game.

There is seriously no need of it. The deadline hits when Vi is probably asleep, I'll be around, I can hammer then and we'll probably even get a couple of hours of twilight. I'm all for getting more discussion out of this Day, because people are being active and participative, and I want to see more of their stances before a flip to compare them to after a flip.

[Tierce]

^

wow

pocalyse

implosion, will you

shut up

and let the Syryana/fferyllt thing develop? I don't know how else to dance around the issue without waving giant flags of me wanting to see where this leads. Thanks, goodbye.

Getting more discussion now is not keeping us from having more discussion later AS WELL, and the thread is nowhere close to being dead right now.

[Tierce]

(Because you're discussing a lot of things other than

MattP is scum lynch it lynch it lynch it.

)

[Tierce]

Hammering in the next hour.

[Tierce]

You know what makes your analysis of her hp leaves analysis more relevant?

An hp leaves flip.

Noted.

VOTE: hp [leaves]

You're mean.

[Tierce]

Tierce, do I have to start threatening puppy doom scenarios again?

I was going to hammer in the coming hour. It was the one thing I had to look forward to after putting my corner of the room in order.

And you took it from me.

You monster. Now I'm

still

stuck with housework and all I have to look forward to is a potential scum flip. How is that supposed to make me feel?

[Tierce]

Thank you. That helps (and should put our mod in a good mood come the morrow).

[Tierce]

post_id=5058498 time=1372230043 user_id=10128 post_num=1071]ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

You have not been announced as dead. If you're Town and have any reads, now's the time.

[Tierce]

Fifteen minutes and posting in GD.

I'm going to take that as a scumclaim and glare some more at Syryana for stealing my thunder. I guess I can make something out of not being on scumlynches in this game + take some consolation that I was counterwagonning scum Yesterday. (>")>

[Tierce]

Dang that was some fine lightning.

Reminder to look into these death picks. It's getting ridiculous--but hey, it keeps me from lynching them instead? >.>
I have too many Townreads and 40 pages to go through them.

Why did scum kill a claimed VT?

[Tierce]

14) Zachrulez - Mallow (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla -

Sublimed Night 1.

1) enomis - Infel (from Ar Tonelico), Town Cultilante -

Impaled Night 1...

5) MattP - Rosalina (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla -

Impaled Night 2.

I TOLD YOU. I told you Zach was not the mafia shot.

(It's kind of sad when this is what I derive some comfort from.)

[Tierce]

So Oversoul, why are you ignoring the fact that I am clearly not scum?

[Tierce]

You have to be seriously terrible at mafia to think I'm failing at reads this badly on purpose and that I would kill MATTP with Tammy in the game. She may not be active, but she's far more capable at reading me than he is, and why the heck would I kill someone I was being paranoid about?

That'd be a heck of a lot of effort to redo anew for someone who gets lazy as scum.

But go on, keep with the selective reading and having no follow-up in the posts you make to me other than to push nonsensically without even reading. It's awesome to watch you flail at it.

[Tierce]

Flail? Who is flailing?

A few things I have issues with is your... Detachment from this game.
It's how I knew you were scum before replacing into Xyl.
And how am I personally supposed to know why you are busy?

Very very clearly not detached from the game. Also, hi, listmod transition.

[Tierce]

Look at the kill names. If a mafia shot was stopped, fine, but look at it--what are the odds it's the not-scum kill? I'm not *sure*, but I'm pretty damn certain.

[Tierce]

Oversoul, you're going on bullshit and my play here has nothing to do with XylBot. You're conveniently discarding my posts that don't interest you and refusing to look at evidence that is right there that shows I make no sense as scum.

Would possibly lynch Amrun Today. More when phone isn't dying and after I sleep.

[Tierce]

Look at the kill names. If a mafia shot was stopped, fine, but look at it--what are the odds it's the not-scum kill? I'm not *sure*, but I'm pretty damn certain.

I'm not saying impaled isn't a scum flavor, because I have no clue.

Which kills fail/succeed have nothing to do with their origin.

In fact, mattP seems an odd scum kill to me -- perhaps enomis was an odd vig kill.

But up until the start of this day I was comfortable with you being town. Now, you seem to know more about the kills and kill flavors than me. That's giving me paranoia hat. Also your posts about "why would I fail so much at my reads as scum" makes NO SENSE, as scum are trying to protect their buddies which makes their reads far more likely to fail than the average townsperson.

P-edit: lol okay

It's called common sense...? enomis was really damned obvious Town. If you want to argue that enomis and MattP are SK kills, sure, whatever, but I think it makes much more sense as enomis and MattP being mafia kills and Zach being a vig/possible SK kill. I'm not going to assume thing on "missing" kills when we don't even know if they are missing, so I make my assumptions based on how I read them/the majority of the players did. If enomis was vigged, someone needs a freaking reality check and has worse reads than I do.

And no, you can stop hinting that the way I'm saying my reads are failing is scummy. Go look at them. If it's bothering you, go look at them and point out how they bother you. Otherwise, I'm done acknowledging that nonsense.

(Wouldn't be surprised if Amrun was the ghost voter scum and was trying to frame hp. I've seen her do a similar move through Night actions. But I have to check her reactions because this is all guesswork atm, I'm not even home and I have yet to sleep.)

[Tierce]

...Look who's trying to subtly change wording now.

How many times have you insisted by now that I KNOW who killed who, when I've made very clear this is a common sense analysis with the specific flips and how I think the three of them were being read in general.

What is more, being cognizant of my meta does not mean I can change it. Yes, I have been improving a bit. No, your theory that meta knowledge renders meta completely useless is silly. And me insisting that some things make me Town? How many, if any, Town games have you seen in which I did NOT do that when some smart aleck calls me scum?

I'm off to bed. Have fun with that tinfoil.

[Tierce]

Zdenek, have you ever read me as NOT scum outside Author Mafia?

Because I have this cool list of games in which, as this account or a known alt or an hydra, you firmly called me scum and I was always Town.
And YES, I am undermining you here. You've had better reads than I so far in this game, but damn are you appallingly bad at reading me. Go read a scum game or two and then come back. If you want my best scum game, there's the very brief Micro 178. If you want a game in which I HAD to get someone lynched, you have Micro 175. Seriously, the meta is all there for you to read and you keep failing at it and argh.

I've explained that I voted for Antagon when I thought he might be Apocalyptical scum, and that before MattP had voted for him I thought they were Masons. Go look at those interactions before you attribute intent to actions. Then the claim looks like a decent Vi role. So what IS your problem if I believed him?

[Tierce]

Mind as well hammer and get to discussing other stuff tonight.

This looks like an attempt to fake a town-tell - to like he didn't have knowledge about the no night time before it happened.

Heh, not really? The person who forgot Instant Night was me, and believe me--I know that failing at remembering of a game mechanic doesn't make someone Town, I've been scum who forgot her team had Daytalk. When he says "discussing other stuff tonight" I think he was talking about tonight-the-25th, not Tonight-Night-2.

Katsuki-vote isn't a terrible thing, but I don't think it's from this. I think it's from him asking Zdenek about Tierce/Amrun, when Katsuki really doesn't give a damn about it or Zdenek's opinion of it, and knows that a Tierce/Zdenek/Amrun triangle can be explosive--it's subtly egging things on.


PEdit: Frankly I think I should be. I'm aware I downplay my scum game some, but it's not intentional--to me it really

is

quite obvious when I'm scum, and people praising my scum game (see s_o_o) only means that they are not familiar enough with me/a bit intimidated/I don't know? Go see what Empire, Tammy, Regfan have to say on my play elsewhere, they're quite good at reading me. And seriously, go look at those games. You have yet to see me as scum.

Because I never draw it anyway~

Also I dreamed that Tammy announced that her Townread on me was gone and damn that was annoying. :/ No dream-bonnet for you.

[Tierce]

I'm not. I'm saying that you have no real interest in Tierce/Amrun or Zdenek's opinion of it, but you're inquiring about it anyway because it looks Town and because pushing Zdenek at me will make him see scum everywhere and cause pages upon pages of arguing that drowns the rest of the game out. I'm still musing how my iffy Amrun read comes into this if you flip scum.

Oh god I'm going to vote scum in this game stoppit this is

weird

--

VOTE: Katsuki

[Tierce]

Wait, that was fferyllt, not Katsuki.

...So, Kats, how does mistaking who posted what make it bullshit? It was good reasoning if you had been the one talking about it, but you snapped at it just because you didn't do it instead of checking. You're not trying to figure me out in any way, just simply lobbing whatever you can at me.

[Tierce]

No, it's your responsibility to look up how my mistake makes it scummy--it doesn't, but you were quick to imply 'you're BSing and look how scummy that is' without bothering to see where I was coming from. That means you're not bothering to scumhunt me. I admit that my initial point is wrong, but he way you addressed it is scummy. If someone said I had made a statement I hadn't, yes, I'd say I hadn't made it, but I like to think I'd look to see where that came from before jumping all the way across to a "scum!" conclusion.

[Tierce]

Fery, who are your current scumreads?

In disarray.

Was considering sheeping MattP's list and voting either SoO or implosion (the latter of which would mess with my somewhat discredited Pjo filter). Implosion proposing the same makes me feel that the idea is squiffy.

I am trying to figure out the katsuki wagon, and, peripherally, what it means that my comment to Zdenek asking his opinion about Tierce and Amrun was scummy if attributed to katsuki but apparently unremarkable coming from me.

It's unremarkable from you, yes.

[Tierce]

Mind as well hammer and get to discussing other stuff tonight.

This looks like an attempt to fake a town-tell - to like he didn't have knowledge about the no night time before it happened.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

AGAIN, this is ridiculous. He meant tonight as real-life night, not Night 2.

[Tierce]

Having no one but myself to blame doesn't mean I didn't spend two nights (due to the crash--had to redo pretty much everything on the site) updating stuff, and then trying to patch up my fail sleep schedule + other stuff. You have no one but yourself to blame for work, yet you also use it as an activity crutch, so lay off--there's evidence everywhere that I was busy.

As for being "this bad", that is tremendously rich coming from someone whose largest contribution to the game yet was today, the 27th. I have been sharing and discussing reads when I have them, and if you can't be bothered to read my posts where this is painfully evident, well, that is your problem, not mine, and you "have no one to blame but yourself". Unlike some people I could name, I HAVE been scumhunting.

Syryana--I'm around tonight, if a Tammy substitute would do. I could do with a review of the game in tandem with someone.

[Tierce]

(As for "oblique hints", I am generally not a mind reader and when sleep-deprived even less so. If you don't voice things up I cannot be expected to pick up on every minor detail.)

implosion, who is scum?

[Tierce]

Oversoul:

Of course I'm self-conscious about my absence. I don't like being inactive, I don't like leaving people hanging, and I don't want to be away from the game when the deadlines are as they are without a damned good explanation. Heck, I'm going to PaizoCon in a week and if I'm alive at the time I intend to let people know when I'm available or not. I explained things in all games I was in when I went to Scotland/Ireland, did the same when I was in transit to the States, etc. Since when is explaining absences *bad*? It's not like I haven't been picking at this game every single day, but some days I actually need sleep and I want people to know WHY I'm not around because these things are FACTS that occupy certain slots of my day. What is more, when I said I was busy and it should be obvious How and Why I was busy, your reply was "how am I supposed to know that". So... damned if I do, damned if I don't?

I've explained my read on Zach and how it makes NO SENSE for me to keep pushing a scumread when it is no longer a scumread. It's absurd. I move on to other targets. He did something I considered Townish, I move on. Lather, rinse, repeat. Damned if I tunnel, damned if I don't?

My suspects/paranoia targets get NK'd and flip vanilla. Heck, I'm ecstatic I don't have to worry about them anymore, and I don't care what you think of my opinion. No PR losses and my paranoia dealt with so I can focus on other people. Damned if I whoop--oh, wait.

As for scumreading hp, yeah, I did. And I was also the one who tried to slow down the lynch as much as possible. He flipped Town. WTF is your problem? I'm suddenly not allowed to have wrong reads? It's not even like I'm letting that demotivate me, so, again, /lay the hell off/. You know who has/had a stupidly bad scumread? You, on me. Is this acceptable? Yeah, I guess, though I'm damn sure not going to let you lynch me (good luck with that). But acting like having bad reads makes me scum? Geez, it's like I have a 100% SWA (and no one told me? someone is meanier than Syryana). I'm trying my damndest and now you're BoPing me. Yaaaay.

...I should tether my phone and stop with the masochistic behavior of typing rant posts on my phone.

[Tierce]

I really wish that I had something close to a reasonable read on either SoO or Implosion.

Same. I

think

s_o_o is Town, but if pressed I have no real good reason behind this. implosion I have no clue. All in all, I think I have too many Townreads.

In light of hp [leaves]'s flip, how do you think Amrun's theory of "the ghost-voter was protecting hp [leaves]-scum" reflects on her alignment?

[Tierce]

Mhm. Good point, Zdenek.

Gah, I need to reread.


Also, while I'm whinging some more:

I really wish that the minor reset didn't happen because I was waiting for her to comment on Katsuki trying to attribute Fate's play to MattP which was literally what Tierce's whole argument hinged upon when she was going after Zach but was actually the correct application of the point she was trying to make. But you know, I can't have nice things. I was trying to make oblique hints at that post earlier in the day waiting to see if Tierce would ever take the bait

My memory of anything I didn't quote at the time/didn't mention was utterly dashed. I spent the crash time going "oh god I hope my work isn't gone please make it not be gone

zzzz

is it gone--it is ._.". So, sorry, but no hints would lead me there and I've already shown that your oblique attempts at getting my attention lead nowhere useful.

You're saying that Katsuki was trying to pin Fate's meta on MattP? From what I saw/remember/have to go reread, he was more saying it in the sense of "you're part of a list of players I gut-read" than "you're doing things like Fate-scum".


On an off-the-cuff thing that has been niggling me for the past hours: I think MattP's death incriminates Katsuki--did he think he couldn't get MattP lynched and/or fear it was a fakeclaim, thus choosing to take him down? Tammy has been away, Syryana is all the way over there with fferyllt, I've been pretty much brain-dead and I'm Kats's comfy wagon choice... MattP makes sense as a potentially dangerous player to take down when there's no visible chance of getting him lynched and the wagon attempt has grown stale.

This feels like a lot of tinfoil--was the wagon really stale, when he was a competing wagon on scum Yesterday? I keep going back to the claim and how scum might have thought it was a fakeclaim. MattP likes to gambit like that.

Back after noms.

[Tierce]

Happy Scumday, Vi.

Katsuki, here's what I don't get: you state earlier in the game that you have no issues reading me (and never explain that scumread or that vote), and then suddenly decide you are going to trust Tammy's Townread on me. No questions asked, no arguments, no nothing, just limping away from a dead wagon. WTF?

[Tierce]

Flavor, implosion?

[Tierce]

Happy Scumday, Vi.

Katsuki, here's what I don't get: you state earlier in the game that you have no issues reading me (and never explain that scumread or that vote), and then suddenly decide you are going to trust Tammy's Townread on me. No questions asked, no arguments, no nothing, just limping away from a dead wagon. WTF?

1. I have a townread on Tammy.
2. I have been mostly inactive for the past year+, and I would trust a townread like Tammy on you, considering I'm sure she has far more experience playing with you.
3. I need arguments if I understand what she's saying? Ok...
4. If by limping away from a dead wagon you mean having to compromise on someone who I don't really want to lynch due to deadline then sure. But if he's flipping town there are major problems with this last line of yours in the post above.

Regardless of 2, you found it worth interjecting that you have no trouble reading me. Coming from someone who has barely played with me, that confidence feels out of place when you then follow Tammy's read with no further ado. You never explained that scumread on me, so no, there is no way I can analyze your read other than as how it is: a weak jump on an off with a confidence level that does not match your words. And as for 4, calling myself a dead wagon gives you problems re: me? When there is no chance in hell I'm getting lynched? Yeeeah no. I see your lynch chain. It's entertaining but... nope, no can do, sorry about that.

[Tierce]

VOTE: Zachrulez

VOTE: fferyllt

VOTE: MattP

VOTE: hp [leaves]

VOTE: Katsuki

14) Zachrulez - Mallow (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla - Sublimed Night 1.
6) hp [leaves] - Sheba (from Golden Sun), Town Vanilla - Lynched Day 2.
5) MattP - Rosalina (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla - Impaled Night 2.
2) fferyllt - Rainbow Dash (from My Little Pony), Town Vanilla - Lynched Day 7.
4) Katsuki - Aya Syameimaru (from Touhou Project), Town Vanilla - Endgamed Night 7.

Behold my spectacular vanilla cop lynches!

I clearly wanted to beat Magua's reads in HunterxHunterxHunter.

I don't understand the animosity toward Pjovek and Whimsical Eggplant. They weren't any worse than any other flaking scum player, and your team won the game. Antagon in particular dug himself into a hole and his fakeclaim (and its botching) was his own fault. He could have certainly done better, and blaming Whimsical Eggplant for everything that happened (especially in

that

manner) is rather out of place.

Congratulations to the scumteam.

[Tierce]

Shush, 'bysser. (That was

almost

as bad as "vesty".)

[Tierce]

fferyllt should never have been lynched after her reaction to Pjovek + Amrun flipping scum, tbh. She's saying she played badly, but I think she was the most obvious Town from the moment Amrun claimed. That kind of paranoia is really really hard to mimic. Yes, it was rather silly paranoia, but it was so outrageously out there that scum wouldn't probably think to make it.

Don't take this game too hard on yourself, fferyllt. Even if your analysis led to the wrong conclusion in the end (LyLo is always a crapshoot), you were definitely trying, and that was some commendable effort to keep going through the game over and over again. Looking forward to playing with you again.