Death's Diner -Game Over-

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'm not sure if that's scum or excited overreaching.

Jarbarkas is acting like a hydra that I expected the Varsoon I just ended Xenogears with. He was town there, and while I don't like using meta, I'm fairly sure he's Town here too.

J 58--I'm pretty sure she's being stubborn.

PV 65/AA 66--WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.. Also, AA, if you claim Supersaint I will probably flip a table.

No, no, I'm sure rofl has a point in voting you, TD.

Amrun 75--not that what I'm saying it's excusable, but Xenogears is a good example, this is how Varsoon plays. I'm expecting him to pull some kind of reaction tell gambit that won't really work next.

AA 89--You rolled scum this game, didn't you? You and Stubbs entire play style indicates not trying. And at this juncture of the game, NOT TRYING isthe biggest scum tell I get.

Requote for ISO.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Hello grumpy ghost, what do you think of saland?

Null-town. I like 73, but it's not enough to stand out for me. There's no...character there, you know?

Then again, he's bothering to post cases, and if someone goes through the "cases are scummy" schlock, I'll clock them. No, no they fucking aren't. It's much easier for scum to coast. It's much easier for scum to be cheeky, to sow chaos and discord. It's much harder to fake the logical reasoning that goes into your average case, or to draw attention to yourself like a lightning rod.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Titus: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28756

Both heads of the hydra were on the same scum team in that game, but you only have to read through Day 1.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'm not sure if that's scum or excited overreaching.

Jarbarkas is acting like a hydra that I expected the Varsoon I just ended Xenogears with. He was town there, and while I don't like using meta, I'm fairly sure he's Town here too.

J 58--I'm pretty sure she's being stubborn.

PV 65/AA 66--WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.. Also, AA, if you claim Supersaint I will probably flip a table.

No, no, I'm sure rofl has a point in voting you, TD.

Amrun 75--not that what I'm saying it's excusable, but Xenogears is a good example, this is how Varsoon plays. I'm expecting him to pull some kind of reaction tell gambit that won't really work next.

AA 89--You rolled scum this game, didn't you? You and Stubbs entire play style indicates not trying. And at this juncture of the game, NOT TRYING isthe biggest scum tell I get.

Requote for ISO.

NOTHING! You said NOTHING about us, you bastard.

I am insulted.

Hello, Fery and person I don't know.

Who's scum? You might save me eleven pages I'll read anyway because I love this fucking game with it's dramas.

[Ghostly Penguin]

You're perpetuating us gaining little useful info.

-V

That's your perception, not mine.
I understand Titus is your buddy. Don't worry, I have you on my town list at the moment.

You can't do that. Either he's someone's buddy or he's town. You literally called him scum and town in the same post. Reading but this jumped out at me.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I wish Penguin would get in here and post something for you guys to read. Not to say I don't love talking to her in hydra chat BUT you should see the inside of the mind space right now. She thinks Titus is scum, which I give a resounding 'meh' to.

Read through the rest of the game; really don't know what to think about the Titus/TD clusterfuck that happened about Page 10.

For town: it seems that Amrun and Elvis are leading that charge. I like BROsideon as well.

JarJar Mayonnaise (perhaps the best use for JarJar Binks) is reading fucking insane, but seems town enough, and I'm hoping that Xiao is restraining some of Varshoon's more...strange tendencies.

A lot of you are neutral, including Rift Adrift.

Things I don't like:
--I don't like the way AA9 breezed in here and posted once, and literally has done nothing this entire fucking game;
--Ditto for PV's vote on Archangel.
--I really don't like Stubbs's pot/kettle posts about this hydra not posting much except for the buddying--there is little to no content for the last fifteen pages before my comments about buddying.
--I especially don't like the effort that's been done to make it seem that buddying is no big deal after he wasted pixels telling JarJar off about it and then reassuring him he's Town. Also, the language rings completely false. If I think you're buddying someone; I tell you that you're buddying X, and if I think I you're town and depending how anal the player base is, I might tell you to stop. I don't call you someone's buddy. This seems to be a way to reverse his progression of reads later, or create a soft bet on JarJar.
--Batzu gets one free pass if they come back and post, but I don't like lack of activity. Right now, I feel if scum was in the lurkers, it'd be AA; although AA right now likes setting herself up for p-lynches from what I've seen.
--Oh, God, I'm agreeing with MS. Although MS's vote is scummy.

I'm not going to place a vote (it'd be on Stubbs), until I talk to PA more and get our shit sorted. Sorry. Believe me when I tell you I'd be all over this like stink on shit.

Requote for ISO purposes and the fact that Ghostlin can't figure out how a hydra works.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Page 29 was easily the most unproductive page of this thread. Keep focused, guys. I really don't want to read you two getting hate ons for each other.

[Ghostly Penguin]

That's not something town generally does, no. And people aren't accusing you of playing badly, they're accusing you of being scum.

Or to wit, we're accusing you of doing the stuff you're doing ON PURPOSE, not because we think you're playing poorly.

Now, I acknowledge that I've made play errors and done things that are against all fucking sense before. And there is a time and place for apologizing for that: it's post-game. And if looking scummy this game due to the stuff that's mentioned is part of poor play, that's a post game thing.

But dude, it looks like you could be very likely apologizing for being scum under the veneer of 'playing poorly' to remove votes from you. Shit posting can come from town, but it's usually a scum hallmark to look busier than you actually are.

I've never played with you, but I think you're capable of more, and I'm more than willing to call you out on being lazy and trying to use that to cast yourself adrift in the crowd and going 'see, see, I'm doing something!'

Guys, gals, you're all pretty and doesn't matter what size your dick is. Can we hunt scum and not have rude-offs, please?

Here. Fill out a Mad-Lib for Uncle Ghosty to get the juices flowing: I think (player's name) is scum because (insert good scum reason here), also because he wears (item of clothing) on his/her (part of body, please keep it fucking PG-13 rated). I feel (emotion) when reading their posts because (reason that may have to do with scum reason).

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yes, I feel pretty confident in saying the odds of one of the lurkers being scum is pretty much 100%

I want Stubbs to answer my Q tho, before I consider moving on.

Pedit: yeah I'll happily vote baezu too

PV? Archangel? Let's not limit our horizons here.

Mod: I'd like a prod on both players I just mentioned, please.

[Ghostly Penguin]

elvis_knits, do you still want JM lynched?

Rift Adrift, in your six person list, it doesn't seem like Stubbs is the most egregious offender. Why jump on that wagon in particular?

More content after bridge, promise.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Players of concern.

Stubbs - lack of scumhunting, followy

Titus - scummy for all the earlier reasons and I want to pick this back up for further discussion on day 2.

Radioactive Wolf - dire lack of content

Zoidberg - he's been called out for excessive politeness. Syr adds excessive reasonableness. fferyllt adds the bizarrity of calling out something that was clearly outside the current game (offer to hydra) as buddying when our slot (fferyllt specifically) has with great deliberateness, forethought and a complete lack of apology, done a metric fuckton of game-related buddying.

Baezu - dire lack of content, hedging

Ghostlin - No scumhunting, near-dire lack of content

Slandaar has been upgraded to leaning town, but IGMEOY

So that's six people we got on our shitlist right now. That's a lot of fucking people for a 19 player game. So either get your shit in gear and start obvtowning to us (if you're town), or we're going to lynch the fuck out of you.

Zoidberg has been upgraded to null/town.

Why the read change in Zoidberg? No, seriously. You don't not post, either head of you, for 24ish hours and then just go 'lol, our posts are now scummier with age' and 'Zoidberg is now null/town' without some sort of explanation.

And Fenix who doesn't bother to talk about me.
I wonder if that's a good or a bad thing.

If Fenix is not talking to do you, then what are you doing to get his attention?

More relevantly: Why do you care?

Last thing and then I'll leave this thread alone. JarJar, RD called you out for the fact that your read progressed in a non-Rift direction to a Rift direction in 24 hours without a previous mention of Rift in your ISO. Why do you think Rift is scum; and why haven't you mentioned it before?

Ghostlin, as Amrun pointed out, is bad at hydra. This is here for ISO purposes.

[Ghostly Penguin]

You don't not post, either head of you, for 24ish hours and then just go 'lol, our posts are now scummier with age' and 'Zoidberg is now null/town' without some sort of explanation.

We appreciate you claiming scum, Ghostlin.

Last thing and then I'll leave this thread alone. JarJar, RD called you out for the fact that your read progressed in a non-Rift direction to a Rift direction in 24 hours without a previous mention of Rift in your ISO. Why do you think Rift is scum; and why haven't you mentioned it before?

We also appreciate you parroting our point.

Point one: You post about three people posting a 'dire lack of content' (your words, not ours), and then announce a change in your reads that I think is relatively major and make cute comments about being scummier in the last 24 hours for JM. You even admit you were absent without any provocation.

To quote Gozaburo from the Yu-Gi-Oh abridged series: "Ring. Ring. Hi, Pot, this is Kettle. I called you to say I think you're black..."

I'm not even saying you're scummy. I'm saying you're a hypocrite right now. Hypocrisy is not necessarily scummy, but it's not attractive or fucking intelligent as either alignment.

Point two: I didn't take your word for it, I actually did check to see if JM had mentioned you. If he/they had, I would of called you out for bitching without a point. I'm much more interested in his flip, like your flip on Zoidberg. Actually knowing where your suspicions are going is pretty damn golden to me.

[Ghostly Penguin]

And Fenix who doesn't bother to talk about me.
I wonder if that's a good or a bad thing.

If Fenix is not talking to do you, then what are you doing to get his attention?

More relevantly: Why do you care?

It's an interesting thing to note.

I shouldn't have to ask this follow up question, but I'll fucking bite:

Are we talking 'interesting' scummy, or 'interesting' interesting?

The fact I have to ask this question is one of the reasons this head of the hydra doesn't like you?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Alright, AJ, explain your head space to me: how is AA and PV "sweet"?

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ: Also, take me through the understanding Stubbs is Town, because I don't really see it.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I don't really see what it is that you feel is hypocritical about my three posts, though. I updated a summary reads post, and responded to a vote that doesn't make any sense to me by pointing up why it doesn't make sense.

That's a rather sanitized 'I didn't do anything, why are you picking on me' version of what actually happened.

Up to that point, you had been gone 24 hours, went 'hey guys, Zoidberg is null/town now' without any justification; I had to ask you why the read changed, particularly since it seemed to come out of nowhere. You then asked TD where his vote was. Again, not a whole lot from someone who was very interested in continuing a unproductive fight with JarJar.

Bluntly, if I'm posturing, you're coming across very holier than thou here.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I have a very slight sweet-read on Grinny, but I need to check on a few things to be sure.
Similarly, Angel is a very slight sweet-read.

Peregrine? He hasn''t contributed enough to be anything other than null IMO.

Here, TD. I can only assume, due to RA's response, that 'Grinny', can only be Peregrine.

Although, what's your feelings on Angel, RA?

[Ghostly Penguin]

^That was a RA response to a AJ quote.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'll keep signing my posts, but anything in purple is Ghostlin for sure.

My main scum reads are on elvis_knits, Aunt Jemina, and Rift Adrift.

In reverse order, Rift Adrift's interpretation of Slandaar is nothing like I've seen his play in other games where he's town. Sure, he focuses in on people, but he tends to use that to get reactions on or from people and then shift targets. He doesn't death-tunnel. So it doesn't jive with my experience, which makes me wonder why you're attributing that to him. Then there's this:

You don't not post, either head of you, for 24ish hours and then just go 'lol, our posts are now scummier with age' and 'Zoidberg is now null/town' without some sort of explanation.

We appreciate you claiming scum, Ghostlin.

Last thing and then I'll leave this thread alone. JarJar, RD called you out for the fact that your read progressed in a non-Rift direction to a Rift direction in 24 hours without a previous mention of Rift in your ISO. Why do you think Rift is scum; and why haven't you mentioned it before?

We also appreciate you parroting our point.

I'll go ahead and tie Amrum's hands by saying that Amrum probably can't answer that question, since Amrum is on limited VLA during weekends. You should probably know this, apparently. I know that Amrum hasn't mentioned it all in the thread, but it's just come up and it's a really convenient excuse for Scum-Amrum to get out of things.

So, Amrum, what is it? Are you going to answer Titus' question or prove that you should replace out of this game?


@Rift Adrift: I don't rely on meta to read players.
And you're not part of any team that I'm on because I don't trust you.

Nowhere in post 597 do I call you scum.

Continue to make plays that I've already argued are scummy via my case on Amrum.

Back.
Don't really have much to say,

I agree with Titus that Rift Adrift is really scummy.

Vote: Rift Adrift

This should be evident from my earlier posts.
I don't like that inactive players just get to be inactive, so it's whatever.

Sorry for being such a shitlord and giving people a lot of trouble. I got pretty worked up the other day over things both in and out of game. I'd like to chat with people I offended after the game and make right by them.

-V

It's been over 24 hours since either of us posted. So our previous posts must get mor scummy with age or something.

You get snarky with Ghostlin over repeating your point, but when you brought it up, you weren't expressing an interest in a dialogue with JM, whereas Ghostlin was. Which makes me wonder why you jumped on it. And you're using meta to back up your scum read on Stubbs--you cite a Newbie game, which is a rather different beast than a large theme. Playing differently from town-small game doesn't translate as scum to me per se.

Aunt Jemina, your town reads, to whatever degree you have them, on PV, AA9, and oriole don't track to me. Especially the AA9 read: what there resembles AA9's town game? (which I've seen a lot of, BTW) And you say this is Baezu's scum game--care to support this with anything? And what relevant points has elvis_knits made? Because aside from #412, I don't see anything that reads as remotely town motivated, as somewhat detailed below.

elvis_knits, in reading her ISO, spends a lot of time making posts that comment on either the hostile exchanges going on (and not with the intent of calming things down or discouraging them IMO) or maintaining suspicion of the Titus-TD-JM/Xiao Long trifecta. Continually voicing suspicion there reads as scum who doesn't want to sacrifice the option to lynch from that pool. That's on top of the lurker dissonance she's been called out on since then.

Ghostlin and I are still working toward an agreement, but my vote would be for elvis_knits based on this.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

I can't understand how I am the only person who sees how scummy metalsonic is.

Wow, you're scum. Seriously, you've had your skin in this game for how long, and you can only come up with 'Wow, Metal Sonic is scummy?'

Yes, it was lazy for Stubbs to post that Metal Sonic is town because he's only seen him play like this as town, and MS making the jump that must mean he's Town, but MS is dreadful. He and TD got into a pissing match into Xenogears that lasted for pages. Now, in that particular case, TD -was- scum, but it seems to be a weakness of MS to be able to articulate anything well.

In other words: You're bottom feeding. You're being hypocritical on a critical level. You richly deserve this.

Vote: EK

Vote: Baezu

Just curious, why are we voting Baezu?

This is why I hate proxy voting. It's much easier to sheep as either alignment than it is to take accountability for your votes. It can also be done very easily as either alignment. Then you can ask that question about the wagon and it looks like you're moderately engaged.

A part of me wants to vote AA9 and THAT so badly, but most people in this meta have such hate-ons for anything that resembles and looks like a policy lynch and there's such a crippling dependence on the through a Vig will take care of the fucking problem that I don't even want to have the fucking fight.

I'm not liking the last three pages from RA: Ffery's talking more about town blocing and theoreticals about the Stubbs meta rather than pushing her suspects. Who does she push if she pushes anyone? AA9. I'm going to trust my hydra partner right now and say the following:

Pond scum:

EK
RA (I think PA's more convinced of this than I; Also #947 is a way to try to continue backwards thinking that makes no sense: if a newbie game is a different animal than a real game, then why does it matter who makes the argument your logic is fundamentally faulty? That's what you're trying to argue there.)
One of PV/AA9 (probably not more than one scum is trying to coast here; if AA9 actually does something that seems rabidly anti-town I'll actually feel better about the slot)
AJ (proclaimed a bunch of people as sour or sweet, but hasn't actually contributed anything to the discussion. Also, my questions on her reads on certain players that are lurking as 'sweet' have gone unanswered as of this post)

Lime deposits:

Eddie Fenix (I don't his seeming lack of contributions, and his read on AJ is practically waffling, but is it TOO easy here?)
Baezu (half the game hates him, and I can see why, his work is sparse and lacks punch. I can't even remember there's a Baezu in this game, but again, is this way too easy?)

Meh. Might Be Dirty, Might Be Clean:

Most of this game, but notable is:
MS (after finishing Xenogears, I think Sonic probably plays this poorly often. I don't think he's Town, but he's a lousy Day 1 lynch candidate.)
JarJar now Xiao (Varsoon's a level of crazy that gave me a headache, but I kind of miss him; he could be trusted to kick up a hornets nest or two. I'm poor at reading him, and I've never read Xiao.)

Clean as a Spring Morning:

Amrun (I'm fairly sure this is her Town play. This is her in HP, for example, and Wheel of Time)
TD (holy shit, who replaced TD with TD the scum hunter? I'm liking this.)

[Ghostly Penguin]

This is fucking silly. While I did go through the list and go 'yes, yes, probably, huh?', the fact that RA's more concerned in putting Town players in presorted blocs than continuing to push any wagon speaks volumes.

And why are we letting RA unilaterally making this decision, if it needs to be made? The best Town blocs make themselves out of bonds of trust, not on one player's Town reads.

RA's even spent a post or two essentially getting AJ to sign onto this. Why is this considered a productive use of time?

ALSO, GHOSTLIN STILL CAN'T FUCKING HYDRA, I THOUGHT YOU'D ALL WANNA KNOW THAT.

[Ghostly Penguin]

My main scum reads are on elvis_knits, Aunt Jemina, and Rift Adrift.
---
Aunt Jemina, your town reads, to whatever degree you have them, on PV, AA9, and oriole don't track to me. Especially the AA9 read: what there resembles AA9's town game? (which I've seen a lot of, BTW) And you say this is Baezu's scum game--care to support this with anything? And what relevant points has elvis_knits made? Because aside from #412, I don't see anything that reads as remotely town motivated, as somewhat detailed below.

elvis_knits, in reading her ISO, spends a lot of time making posts that comment on either the hostile exchanges going on (and not with the intent of calming things down or discouraging them IMO) or maintaining suspicion of the Titus-TD-JM/Xiao Long trifecta. Continually voicing suspicion there reads as scum who doesn't want to sacrifice the option to lynch from that pool. That's on top of the lurker dissonance she's been called out on since then.

--Penguin

I have a strong suspicion that this game is multiscum. Ally listed three suspects, in a game which should have four or even five.

Even if this is incorrect, my sourread on Ghosty has increased. This is not a town Ally (penguin_alien). This is distinctly Ally's scumplay. In addition to the overall lack of her town self, there is the fact that she is misrepping my points on Grinny, Angel, and Orry. I explicitly said that Grinny and Angel were

weaker

reads on my

memory

of their meta which

I have not checked on to confirm

. Orry is not a meta read at all, and yet is lumped in with the others.

I cannot back up my statement on this being Bazzy's scum play. However, I am certain of it.

Knitty reads as town because she looks to be trying to figure the situation out. Her confusion over the Tussy/Deathy situation reads as genuine, in contrast to others whose suspicion seems forced. I noted that her suspicion has been lessened as she has progressively figured it out, all pointing to a town player who is rationalizing the situations and analyzing carefully. She may not be trying to "calm things down", but she

is

trying to understand them and reach conclusions. I find her posts become increasingly solid.

Sonny continues to remain at null, a dangerous place to linger. I cannot read him either way.

Townbloc - TD, Amrun, Rofl, BRO.

Deathy is being quite explicit in that if you trust him to be town, Tussy

must

be sweet as well. Why is Tussy absent from your townbloc, deary?

Hi. You're dealing with the Ghosty half of Ghostly Penguin, and not, how you put it? Ally.

First of all, I would like to thank you for your scum claim, it'll make future days easier knowing you're scum and making me want to make you eat rope.

You are scum for the following reasons:

1) The whole bullshit about muitiball and making it a town concern. Town doesn't give a shit about muitiball for the following reasons: without crosskills, it's not credible at all, and it's all scum to Town at this juncture. Anyone's who's scum, and I include Serial Killers, Day 1, needs to hang. The conjecture at this point is noise and doesn't really distract from the Town team's objective, which is making sure you all die. I generally don't mind help in this regard, but I can be flexible.

2) Your big reads post had both Grinny (that's an awful name for him and you should feel awful) and Angel as slightly sweet. I didn't misinterpret that. Now, you may have that because of meta (what meta, there's not enough stuff for there to be a meta argument), but the fact that you're waffling rather than giving me an straight answer or examples, means you're lazy or want to keep your options open for an easy lynch. Or both. Yet, you make a big deal out of Metal Sonic being null. A big deal.

3) You've updated our read on us on the flimsiest rationale that this isn't PA's town play. Do you have any meta, or can you not be bothered to check, like your reads in 2? Also, anything in purple is ME, not my partner. She's much more gracious than I am.

4) While I find the enforced town bloc idea stupid, suggesting we add Titus to it while some of the game has doubts that PV's right, including my partner (he's honestly a null to me) doesn't ring right to me. I though this was a Town leaders bloc made up of people we can trust, not people we're not sure on that people we trust say is town.

Yeah, no, the pancake's syrup's gone sour, guys.

[Ghostly Penguin]

My main scum reads are on elvis_knits, Aunt Jemina, and Rift Adrift.
---
Aunt Jemina, your town reads, to whatever degree you have them, on PV, AA9, and oriole don't track to me. Especially the AA9 read: what there resembles AA9's town game? (which I've seen a lot of, BTW) And you say this is Baezu's scum game--care to support this with anything? And what relevant points has elvis_knits made? Because aside from #412, I don't see anything that reads as remotely town motivated, as somewhat detailed below.

elvis_knits, in reading her ISO, spends a lot of time making posts that comment on either the hostile exchanges going on (and not with the intent of calming things down or discouraging them IMO) or maintaining suspicion of the Titus-TD-JM/Xiao Long trifecta. Continually voicing suspicion there reads as scum who doesn't want to sacrifice the option to lynch from that pool. That's on top of the lurker dissonance she's been called out on since then.

--Penguin

I have a strong suspicion that this game is multiscum. Ally listed three suspects, in a game which should have four or even five.

Even if this is incorrect, my sourread on Ghosty has increased. This is not a town Ally (penguin_alien). This is distinctly Ally's scumplay. In addition to the overall lack of her town self, there is the fact that she is misrepping my points on Grinny, Angel, and Orry. I explicitly said that Grinny and Angel were

weaker

reads on my

memory

of their meta which

I have not checked on to confirm

. Orry is not a meta read at all, and yet is lumped in with the others.

I cannot back up my statement on this being Bazzy's scum play. However, I am certain of it.

Knitty reads as town because she looks to be trying to figure the situation out. Her confusion over the Tussy/Deathy situation reads as genuine, in contrast to others whose suspicion seems forced. I noted that her suspicion has been lessened as she has progressively figured it out, all pointing to a town player who is rationalizing the situations and analyzing carefully. She may not be trying to "calm things down", but she

is

trying to understand them and reach conclusions. I find her posts become increasingly solid.

...Keyword being 'main' scum reads. No idea if this is multiball or not, but just because I'm pushing three main scum reads doesn't mean I think there are only three. Very poor point from you.

Unless you have an alt I don't know of, you and I have played in two games together to my knowledge: 2.5 Friends and Mini 1458. I was town in both, you were town in the former and scum in the latter. I question your familiarity with my scum game, and even if you did look at my meta, I find it suspect that you would claim to be so familiar with scum-me when you can't articulate what's giving you town vibes from PV and AA9. And I see zero support for any of those three reads: PV, AA9, and oriole, regardless of whether they stem from meta. Which, I never implied you said they did. And you are so certain of Baezu's scumminess but you can't cite a thing to support it? This reeks.

EK isn't being confused about the TD-Titus-Xiao Long trifecta; she's keeping her options open to scum read them. What conclusions is she reaching?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Most of my points to AJ re: muitiball should be in reference to Day 1 muitiball, and not later when you do have to worry about muitiball logistics. Although if you're scum hunting for a particular team, you've let things go too critical and you're probably fucked anyway.

[Ghostly Penguin]

People who know me.. You know this when i say this.. so hang on, i am yet to read the game
And people who don't know me.. You may continue to rant about me.. i don't give a shit
And to Scum, Back off before i chopoff your nuts!!!! huh!!!!

Hyper aggressive defensive and vaguely anti-town. I hope Angel comes back, because that actually gives me hope this is the Angel of Harry Potter, and I can understand that one.

[Ghostly Penguin]

RA: tl:dr version of your Stubbs analysis? You're mentioning how great his trajectory is in one part and then are relentlessly negative in another. How do you feel about Stubbs and why should we care?

[Ghostly Penguin]

That's not at ALL saying, "Beazu is town, so we should lynch Stubbs." It's kind of the opposite of that, actually. Other people disagree on Baezu in ways that I don't find suspect. Rift Adrift, for example -- they support Stubbs over Baezu and it isn't scummy.

I'm meh about the whole Baezu wagon and I'm not 100% sure, but I think so's PA.

How does that make you feel?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Baezu (6) - roflcopter, Amrun,

Aunt Jemina

, Slandaar, Metal Sonic,

PeregrineV

Sorry, but one of my most virulent scum reads and a lurker read on this wagon is still giving me pause that this is entirely too simple, Amrun.

Also, Metal Sonic. I'd feel much better about the Baezu wagon if it didn't seem parked with players who obviously think Baezu was a good lynch versus not going after someone who seems a bit of low hanging fruit.

That's why I'm meh. It's like Arcangel in HP--too easy to lynch/mislynch.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Here's my thoughts on the TD/Titus/Xiao Lang/Baezu thing:

Unfortunately, except for the opposing team, Mafia is a game of hidden information (role PMs and abilities for example).

Occasionally, you can prove/disprove certain things privately with your hidden information. Your hidden information may in fact be golden.

Without a certain level of evidence that you almost never want to reveal, that level of hidden information is almost never acceptable to any other player outside of your circle. And your hidden information may be influenced or wrong.

It's why we don't trust it. It has really not much to do with Mafia theory in and of itself, but we're not privy and you'd be foolish to part with it.

So. While I don't necessarily doubt you feel your information is correct; I'm going to treat it as if you it didn't exist, particularly since you might be lying to me.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Both heads of this hydra think she's scum. 978/979 has our reasons for it.

I don't think that lynch will fucking fly today, and that's a crippling shame.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Why not? This seems like a lynch supported by evidence.

Because besides us and Xiao, there doesn't seem to be that many people willing to put the skin in that or the EK game. We're going after Baezu. Stubbs. While I'm glad we're not going after MS, there's still some low hanging fruit there.

No matter what evidence we may have, we can't lynch someone without votes, and not many people saw our rationale and went 'hey, you know what? Ghostly Penguin's right'.

[Ghostly Penguin]

That said, if you guys are suggesting a AJ voting bloc, I could get behind that, once I consult with PA.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Among others, all of her theme games. I may only be present in one theme game at a time, but I read or skim every theme game. Her play here is strongly reminiscent of Street Racers, and even stronger in its resemblance to WWE Shield. (Both were multiscum games, and thus, there is an assumption present that Ally is faction-specific scum.) This does not seem like the Ally from Mainstream Mafia, 2.5 Men, or Calvin & Hobbes.

Unlike with Grinny and Angel who are harder to read, Ally is an incredibly easy player to get a read on, and I am telling you this is her scum play.

Knitty and Stubby are both among the worst wagons possible for this day. Neither will hit scum. If you want a lynch on a sour player, do not lose focus of Bazzy. While I will be the first to admit certain members of the wagon have concerned me with their presence, I am far more fond of it than the equivalent-sized Stubby wagon. I could also compromise onto Eddie if necessary.

The speculation around Deathy/Tussy/Longy is stupid. It is plain to see that they are town. I am treating them as masons, as any player not a young child should be doing if town. There is scum motivation in doubting the claim.

Longy, deary: The assumption of multiscum is explained above. However, I have stated that I cannot elaborate on Bazzy. I am certain this is Bazzy's scum play. I cannot reveal why I am certain of it. If I could, I would have done so already. You are correct in that I have not pointed out the sour actions of Bazzy's in-thread, but this is because others such as Slandy have done so for me and my case would be redundant.

It is quite true that I am not putting great effort into this game.

*sings* ~One of these things is not like the others/One of these things just doesn't belong. If you can tell me which thing is not like the others when I finish my song...~

I don't buy that you would remember meta that deeply about my partner since you read

every

large theme game and be unable to confirm the same for AA9 and PV. I'm having a hard time buying that you are trying to remain unbiased when you've -read every- large theme game, and then claim you're not trying, but claim that PA's a supernaturally easy read.

In other words: you're

full of it.

I'm not sure on which particulars, but you are absolutely

full of it.

You're either deliberately coasting on some reads and hoping the rest of the game doesn't notice; or you're participating in some sort of weird confirmation bias that verges on the scummy.

[Ghostly Penguin]

What's even worse; she managed to compound her 'case' against my hydra partner in her continued stance that this is muitiball. Which by the way, you don't use meta cases for.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Me and Aj have been talking about theoretical multiball, every once in a while. That statement confirms multiball and confirms stubbs scum.

This may have been part of the gambit earlier, but if you seriously have been doing this, this head of the hydra begs you to stop. It gives me a headache because it gives me latent scum vibes because no one else gives a shit; and you're encouraging actual scum to boot.

They're trying to kill us. One team, two teams, a group of five even night-odd night SKs that are independently subcontracting out of Mom's basement and all belong a muiti-level pyramid marketing scheme controlled by the Illuminati that can day, night and talk into different threads. We. Lynch. Scum. Day. One.

I don't actually think you're scum. This will either go into 'annoying gambit' or 'stupid shit protown players say' pile; but syrup lady doesn't need more encouragement to scum it up harder.

Also, more EK votes please. She's lurking like a pro.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Even if Rofl is "playing by his gut" evidence of his thought pattern beyond, this lynch isn't getting off should be present. Instead, it's all about getting on trains for town cred. Hurry and lynch this guy.

Progression of reads shows ROFL incredibly town, if more terse than some players in this game.

To quote TD: "Try again."

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'm the one who's been saying "Try again" >:C

My apologies. Sometimes it becomes a blur. It's a snappy phrase that so encompasses certain viewpoints in this game. The ones that don't function from reality, for example.

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ: a) my play in Street Racers versus WWE was rather different from each other, b) I wasn't around for any of Day One (or 2) in Street Racers or most of Day One in WWE, c) I'm not playing here like I did in either of those games, and d) you've still failed to point out anything I've actually done here (or there) that gives you any kind of a read on me.

If you have specific points you want me to address, fine; otherwise I'm leaving it at AJ is a firm scum read for this 'read' and her other unsubstantiated reads and inconsistent stances. I'd help lynch her, but if people want to wait until she drops more clues as to who her buddies are, that's A-OK.

Elsewhere I approve of the votes on EK. Baezu just seems like he's overwhelmed by the scope of the game. Given the points he does make about EK, I can't put him at worse than a null read. Ghostlin and I agree that Rift Adrift is becoming more of a town read than a scum read. Slandaar's still a town read even if I dislike the Baezu vote; I hold out hope he'll vote elsewhere on his list.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I'm not getting how you guys see AJ as scum XD.

I'm going to be blunt here. (That's a surprise.)

I mistrust AJ for the reasons I outlined earlier, but in particular the meta read of my partner. Let's say for the fact of point, she does read every Large Theme game. She's still using second hand meta. She didn't experience and can only vaguely understand what each situtation is in each game. It's much easier to read a game and say how things should of gone while reading it then in it's actual participation.

She's also remarkably vague for someone who's read meta. It's similar to I think, rofl's prodding Bro to stop being an expert in everyone's meta and play the game.

I think it was Haylen who told me once that meta was useful because psychology doesn't really change. I have always disagreed with this, because meta is a list of behaviors taken situationally, and you can, with practice, change your behavior. You can also align behaviors closer together to make yourself harder to read.

My point is this: she's "spotting the behavior", but not giving us any reasons for what the behavior is or any real basis for comparison? And one other player's disagreed with her vocally in thread, someone else who knows her meta?

And the meta argument might be fine, except she's not been providing consistent details all game. She's given players passes that don't deserve them. I'd probably be down Metal Sonic's throat right now except for Xenogears and I think he's an easy lynch. I think he has a play style that seems disjointed and looks like someone who shits on the thread.

It took three posts to even get "I read all Large Themes, OK?" out of her. I don't understand why you trust her.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Teal deer summary: I don't like AJ because all of her reactions are meta based; her claim to have read every large game is unsubstantiated with a number of her claims on people's meta. She doesn't have to take any accountability for those because a number of folks in this game won't do the meta research and draw their own conclusions, and even if they do, it'll be second party.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Oriole, I'm just going to say this about the difference between Elvis and AJ in my personal eyes, and PA's free to post her agreement/disagreement/Ghost why do you post such shit?

You can't talk about a player that's not interacting. And Elvis has right now closed the cellar door, barred it once any suspicion has wafted in. AJ's easy to comment on. She's giving me fodder.

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ: a) my play in Street Racers versus WWE was rather different from each other,
--Penguin

Ah, the joys and perils of self-meta....

Since you seem to know they are different, how did you play differently in each one, and why the difference?

I'm very aware of the dangers of self-meta and how very unreliable it is to anyone not the self, and even 'self' is very subject to bias. Having said that, in Street Racers I was playing around with persistent tunneling on soft targets, and in WWE I had very few opinions that weren't first held by multiple other people or were strictly defensive. Although more obviously, I wasn't playing on Day One in Street Racers or most of Day One in WWE. So Day One specific meta is absent.

You were in both those games. Care to venture an opinion? Because AJ has repeatedly avoided providing any specifics beyond, 'I said so.'

I agree with Ghostlin noting that elvis_knits isn't responding to anything. Which makes her more vote-worthy to me. If I had a second vote it would be on AJ. But one scum at a time.

Oriole, please put those notes in a more legible (and condensed) form. Condensed in that I'm interested in what you consider your most relevant reads.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

PV, That rant you quoted was me against the town bloc and enforcing town blocs artificially. It seemed to be a way for RA not to scum hunt. Now, as of this post, I am warming to the idea they are town ,even though I disagree with manufactured town bloc. [

So. .. any other reads aside Elvis?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Apparently I'm in the minority for thinking pv's catchup is scummy. He has no scumreads except a weak one on elvis, which is qualified with "these posts look the same as this other time when I thought she was scum BUT SHE WAS TOWN." WTF.

You're not alone. I found the whole one scumspect thing to be...well, pretty fucked up considering where we are at this phase of Day 1. However, a plus is, he at least owns that and hasn't gone through the scum hedging tactics, which generally means he doesn't give a shit what we think of it.

PA mentioned that she usually caught PV through interactions of flipped players (mostly scum) and I think that'll be this hydra's tactic toward that slot. I'm actually not jumping up and down on the 'PV is so obv-town it hurts' wagon.

Oriole's pretty strongly town. I'm not liking Titus' #1273, and if I hear one more unjustified and pointless discussion about muiti-ball, I'm liable to hurt someone or something.

[Ghostly Penguin]

In fact, Titus, do tell me: why aren't you voting? Is it lack of scum suspects; or something else?

[Ghostly Penguin]

I re-read it and yes, he is literally defending himself by calling himself a low frequency poster. I can't even...

VOTE: broseidon

What motivation is there for me to post when I know I'm almost certainly dead by the end of day 3?

thats actually a reason to try harder days one and two so its time for you to stop using it as an excuse

If you're town and have reason to think you'll die sooner rather than later, especially by NK, you should want to leave the town with as much to work with as possible.

Amrun, don't go fishing with scum.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Screw you, I've contributed plenty.

Want to fakeclaim a PR as a VT again?

That'll sure add to your incredible opus of contributions.

Way to gloss over the part where he was dead-on in his read.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Baezu (7) - Aunt Jemina, Slandaar, Metal Sonic, Oriole, Bro, RA, Amrun

Official obviously.

There is a severe lack of roflcopter and Ghostly on this wagon.

In the realm of scum continuum, with the three folks we're talking about now: EK>Zoidberg>Baezu

Baezu's still reading scummy, but it's like Stubbs at the beginning of the day, it seems too easy. If EK is no longer viable, I'd rather vote Zoidberg.

[Ghostly Penguin]

That's it, I give up, EVERYBODY CLAIM.

It's a claimapalooza, WHEEEEEEE!

means, you're scum, right?

Are you playing this game or trolling it? 'Cause if you're trolling it, Uncle Ghosty has nooses available so you never see LYLO...

[Ghostly Penguin]

I love it when Syrup Lady posts. It allows me to be snarky without feeling that I'm picking on someone trying to be protown.

Slandy, deary:

I am not ignoring you. I have been reading your posts and silently analyzing them. My read on you has not changed, thus no need to comment on you.

"Slandy, dear, I'm not ignoring you, I'm fence sit--no, wait, analyzing your posts, and it's not changed your read any. It's kind of my fault. I'm not pancake syrup, I'm secretly molasses."

Bro, deary:

Contrary to what you may think, I am not scum. Many of your posts resonate with my logic, and I cannot ignore that. Nor can I ignore the presence of a current scumread on your wagon, nor can I ignore how as soon as a wagon on you appears, many players that previously supported you are hesitant to do so currently, a fact which greatly concerns me. While I do have a bad gut read on you, I am willing to listen to you being town. If you work with me, then we can maybe sort through this mess.

"Good news, BRO deary: if you she--I mean, work with me, I'll ignore my gut and find you town. I'm really not scum. Honest." BRO, if you buy this, you are either: a) her scum buddy, or b) gullible to the extent that I have a few reads to sell you.

I know you think Eddie is scum. I am in agreement with that. But your vote on Eddie isn't doing any good, as he is being replaced. Move it somewhere else, and talk to me about why you're moving it to where you are. I want to see your mind more clearly so that I can analyze this once and for all.

Yeah, as much as I mock AJ in this post, this part makes sense and I can concede that. Eddie's not doing much good, and I'm being forced to see that Elvis isn't doing much good any longer. I'd love to talk it over with Penguin, but the QuickTopic we're using is down. There's

still

some passive aggressive buddying here; I don't talk to people I'm suspicious of in this way.

elvis_knits (3) - Baezu, Ghostly Penguin, PeregrineV

I am not fond of this wagon at all. It is made up of two scumreads and one read which has honestly moved well into null by this point.

Zoidberg (3) - StubbsKVM, Titus, TiphaineDeath

While this wagon is comprised entirely of town, I do not think a Zoidy lynch is going to go through today. I would much advise the members to switch to Bazzy, as Orry just did.[/quote]

"I hate the first wagon because it's composed of scum, and you town folks over there, you're wasting your time with Zoidberg. Please, join an old lady over on Bazzy-wazzy." One wonders what Baezu did to her; but note how she tries to shut down the counterwagons by declaring one scum and one town, but misguided--keep in mind Zoid had managed to pick up three slow votes here.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Baezu (7) - Aunt Jemina, Slandaar, Metal Sonic, Oriole, Bro, RA, Amrun

Official obviously.

There is a severe lack of roflcopter and Ghostly on this wagon.

Let's worry about lynching Baezu first.

Why are we pushing the super-obvious lynch first?

No, seriously. This is my problem with it. IT'S TOO EASY. Baezu may be scum, yes. Everyone in the game would be willing to vote him in some fashion or another. And he feeds his own fuel.

Stop. Consider: who benefits by this lynch? Will you change your mind about AJ if Baezu is scum and she pushed her buddy? What about the other members of the wagon?

[Ghostly Penguin]

I can confirm what Bro and Slandaar said.

On my phone at work. Will have more later today.

[Ghostly Penguin]

In fact I have had enough

These 5
Me
Rofl
Bro
Ghost
Sonic

One is scum and 4 town of varying cop sanities with a qt and daychat.

Bro is the scum, when he is lynched the rest of us are conftown hence the value of the lynch.

Why isn't it Sonic? perhaps you debate this? He pmed the mod about the alignment of the as we knew it liar and mod told him scum; this makes him town alone. I have confirmed this myself. I very highly doubt he does this as scum.

Why did you claim Sland? Well scum already know about us so it doesn't make much difference except for the fact now the whole town does too.

Lynch BRO.

Whoa whoa whoa, 4 cops plus whatever other roles are able to "confirm" to each other?

That seems pretty suspect.

*facepalm* This post indicates you probably rolled scum this game, but in the unlikely case you haven't, go to the wiki and search for dethy.

Then and only then, post back in this thread.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Unvote.

Vote: Zoidberg

That was the opposite of a town reaction to the announcement, and so heinous I can't ignore it will probably be drawing my partners ire by not discussing it with them first.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Amazing how you dodge the question. Your town block is indeed artifical when you have no way of confirming who is town at this stage in the game. Likely town yes. Certain town no.

Your block was TD, Amrun, Rofl, Bro. Amazing how two of the cops are on that wagon.

Amazing how 4 of the cops are probably town.

I'm usually pretty good at putting together town blocs.

It's easy to put together a town block with the cops when your scum partner tells you they are in the deathy in advance.

Holy confirmation bias, Batman!

Considering that choosing a random set of four players in this game, hitting a cop is one in four, hitting two is entirely possible if a touch difficult.

This is like a psychotic version of gamblers fallacy.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I see the claims. Slandy has become confirmed town. Sonny is looking much better as well. Rofl remains a townread of mine.

However, I must disagree with Slandy that Brossy is the scum. To me, it is much more likely that Ghostly is the sour name.

Zoidy's reaction to this whole incident is incredibly bad; a blind woman could see the truthfulness of the claim. His willingness to lynch Brossy and attempt to lynch Slandy after that is even worse. It reinforces my belief that Brossy is not scum, and that Ghostly is.

I am a bit concerned that the mafia may have a framer-type power. If the scum did not have a way to interfere with cop sanities, then this minigame would quickly be resolved and the scum inside would be lynched.

If you are going to attempt a lynch on either Brossy or Knitty, I am confident enough in my reads on both of them to put my name in front of theirs.

Everyone

(except Deathy <3) has me as a sour-read or null-read. If not today, I would be mislynched later.

However, this is obviously not my preference. I would prefer a lynch on Bazzy, Eddie, Zoidy, or Ghostly.

...yeah, still waiting to hear the source of your read on me, either based on overlapping meta or something I've done in this game. I'm not picky.

I don't love the Zoidberg vote, but I'm willing to see where it goes. My take is that town-Zoidberg has a good gut.

We've been considering in the QT when to reveal. I was leaning toward today but in twilight to get a day's worth of uninfluenced play while still alerting town PRs to make scum consider how much they want to risk wasting their shot/revealing themselves to town PRs. Slandaar wanted today during the day to maximize discussion time with the town at large. rofl wanted to wait minimum one day to maximize results. Metal Sonic wanted to claim by Day 2. BRO wanted to hold off to keep any SKs out of the loop. Which...why an SK? Why not all anti-town factions? If we do have an SK, they have to be last player standing. That should mean killing cops of unknown accuracy is less important than killing people who are a direct or indirect threat to him individually. Cops are way more likely to threaten a group of scum.

His specificity in worrying about an SK threat over a second scum group is shady.

Oriole, you had BRO leaning town, me leaning scum dependent in AJ, and MS as null. How is MS now townier than BRO?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Oh, and if we had a Dethy-like game with a framer in play, we'd all be ineffective. We already don't know our sanities/investigative efficacy; a framer would be overkill.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Can we not rehash this for the millionth time today and just join together to vote zoidberg instead?

Bro or Baezu or bust


P-edit: who first mentioned a framer?

AJ, #1655

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Amrun/AJ --- Zoid --- Rofl... discuss?

Amrun: Wrong; her stances are protown and generally has been scum hunting. This is not exactly like HP Amrun, but it's close enough to Townrun I'm comfortable.
AJ: Yup: She's scummier than hell. Her meta stances have no backing and she seems to continue to push us while being all over Baezu.
Zoid: Probably: I still don't like his reaction to five cops, and nothing he's done this game has wowed me.
Rofl: Wrong; he's been protown in the cop chat, and his progression of reads makes sense. Generally, you can tell where he's going to vote before he goes there.

I still like BRO for scum; his meta cases remind me of AJ (saying someone's playing to their meta without substance) and he's not fully engaged, a similar tactic he took in Xenogears. My only counterpoint is you can break the hell out of Dethy and scum's going to have to start killing or start getting confirmed Town players, start dealing with two accurate cop investigations and the fact that we'll nail the person in our QT sooner rather than later.

I've not liked the Baezu wagon all day, but to move this along and to prevent any possibility of no-lynch, I will declare intent to hammer so they can claim (barring PA saying absolutely not).

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, since it's been so important the last two pages, I thought I'd weigh in on the Sonic handwriting thing:

[Ghostly Penguin]

This is also why lynching inside the cops is a bad idea, especially if the cops are flipped merely as cops, and not as *Sanity* Cop. Speaking of that matter, I would be rather disappointed in the town cops if that question had not been asked; has it been asked, and if so, do you have an answer?

I personally refuse to answer this question, and find it's asking downright scummy.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yes and Yes as has already been said in thread I am pretty sure.

I don't know why you answered this, she's not asking for our good, I'm pretty damn sure.

There's transparency, and then there's scum verifying leaked information. She's doing the second.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Rescind intent to hammer. Titus might still, but I want no fucking part of a mislynch; Baezu's reactions read to me a frustrated Townie who isn't getting far in all of her games, not a scum; also, I don't like the lynch anyway, AJ is reading like a fucking opportunist by voting him all day, and we could be lynching EK or Zoidberg right now; Zoidberg is trying to create fraction and discord in the Dethy, and EK hasn't done a single damn thing after being directly accused, and didn't do that much to begin with, general and fluffy.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I am willing to vote on Zoidy, but a Bazzy lynch has more momentum at this moment.

Why are you more interested in momentum than whether or not Zoidberg is scum or not? I agree this game does have to move, but this seems like a push to close it early. Considering you've been on Baezu all day, this seems like an completely unnecessary comment and reads like you're keeping your options open.

[Ghostly Penguin]

A list of scum reads that Ghostly Penguin has talked about in their thread, and the (Ghostlin) reasoning for them.

Tier 1: These are scum reads that we feel should be lynched today, and are literally banging our head against our keyboards that we can't get support for.

Elvis Knits:

Really, the most prominent thing was the whole 'we shouldn't vote lurkers today', Vote: Metal Sonic for lurking. It's not hypocritical, it's really the most insincere line of thought I've seen in a while. Also, #626 bothers me because it reads partially that she wanted to keep her avenues open amongst the Titus/TD/Jarbarkus bloc, and she seemed to favor JarJar because of the chaos in that slot, not because she seemed to think JarJar was absolutely scum. It seems wrong.

Aunt Jemina:

Her entire case on us is predicated by meta that at least two other players have disagreed with. For half of this hydra (keep in mind she's not commented about my meta). When she's not trying to passively push a meta lynch on us, she's talking about muitiball, the possiblity of framers (which again, smacks of complaining that this is too easy for Town) and wanting Dethy cops to confirm their flips (probably for her scum team). Her vote is on Baezu, but I can't remember WHY; or why she votes Titus in her first post of the game, which is #852. She admits that she's not bothered to confirm some reads, but is sure about the meta of half of this hydra. Her progression of reads stinks. She's scum, and has been since this game began. Oh, wait. She metaed Baezu and this is their scum game as well...guys, it's so fucking easy to say you've metaed someone, no one's going to check.

Tier 2: These are reads that aren't Tier 1. They're scummy, but either one of us or the other aren't in love with them, they have their own special problems, etc.

Eddie:

Is a bunch of post reads with actually no substance to them. There's really nothing to cite here except he seems to be coasting on reads and inactivity. It's not that hard to call someone scummy, and Eddie essentially does nothing else in this ISO, particularly in #391 and #562, back to back.

My biggest problem with Eddie is I wanna see his replacement. Because having been a replacement for a low activity Town slot, that person might read Eddie and go 'fuck, I'm townscum.'

Zoidberg:

He's not done any lifting all game. None of his posts have impressed me, and I thought #1580 was particularly bad, because I've never heard anyone, even with mechanics they don't understand, actually

complain

that the side they're supposed to be on is getting an unfair advantage. It literally reads like that, or the fact that rofl, MS, me and my partner, BRO, and Slandaar are participating in a muitiplayer scam.

My biggest problem with Zoidberg is I recognize that I'm essentially disliking one post and hating on the fact that his ISO has nothing that jumps out and bites me. I'm willing to lynch that. Also, something Penguin said to me when I moved our vote to Zoidberg seems to indicate she's not sold on that lynch.

BRO:

Is here for a special case. Using PoE and having a certain amount of confidence Slandaar and Rofl are town from the interactions I've had (Rofl's progression is the opposite of AJ's, it's GREAT) and MS is more or less acting like Xenoblade, I feel that BRO has to be the remaining scum. Also, he seems a bit off, gut wise. Although I'm not a big believer in gut, I feel this case, it may be justified.

That said, Dethy's broken as shit, I don't have a huge fountain of evidence against BRO, and we'd be remiss not to exploit the shit out of the Dethy subgame. If he's lying, then his days are numbered. If he's not, then we can catch the actual liar.

Tier 3: These lynches have severe problems with them to the point that while I think they're being scummy, there's possibly of mislynch. Or just..VIs.

Archangel:

Is acting anti-town. At first, I was reassured until PV told me this was her scum meta now. She's not posted enough to do anything except ping my scumdar lightly, and honestly, she's not a good Day 1 lynch precisely for the reason that it's too easy to mislynch her. We can't take her to LYLO, but lynch her Day 1...nope.

Stubbs:

Read scummy at the beginning of the game. I didn't like his verbage of the word 'buddy' in one of his posts, and going back to his ISO, he reads uber defensive and prickly. That said, the fact everyone was all over him in the earlier part of the game makes me hate it. It really is too simple.

Baezu was in this tier, and is moved to the 'nope, definitely don't want to lynch today' pile.

[Ghostly Penguin]

But Baezu first is PERFECTLY acceptable

Why are you so hell-bent on pushing this? Really, it's scraping the bottom of the barrel. #1778 is a newbie Town reaction to someone who's been lynched in multiple games.

The posts after it, while not brilliant, show a certain amount of thought that either Baezu's an incredible actor, is actual thought from a limited understanding of mafia theory. I had this lynch placed at 70% to be a mislynch with PA in our QT, and I'm thinking it's fucking higher than that.

Amrun, you're better than this. PERSUE A NEW SCUM SUSPECT.

[Ghostly Penguin]

No she isn't.

Because she can't. She has yet to actually articulate the behaviors that make her meta scum reads scum or her meta town reads town. She's done "because meta, and Ally is easy to read all game."

She's not been able to talk about the behaviors that she's seen in the meta. She wants you to take "because meta" seriously without doing any work and on her claims alone.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I discuss this tendency of AJ in 1185. She's done it all game.

[Ghostly Penguin]

unvote. Vote: AJ

I whole heartedly support this new wagon.

[Ghostly Penguin]

baezu, you're not getting an AJ lynch today, vote zoidberg with us or tell me why you think he's town.

Why are you so interested in dismissing this wagon? There's a number of people who have AJ as scum, it's something that should be pursued day 1.

You don't have to vote for it, but stopping talk on it, like Zoid's the only wagon today is silly and shaking my read in you.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Zoidberg has been blatantly lurking when convenient buddying having, sheeping etc. I cannot think of a better candidate for a lynch. The bad timing was the clincher. I wouldn't have pushed the Zoidberg lynch if I didn't believe him to be scum.

I do find Xiao's reason credible because he's always wanted AJ, the others are frankly suspicious as hell with their timing. We were moving and pushing towards L-1 and then we aren't.

1. I invite you to read my ISO sometime, then. I've always wanted an AJ push, PA's wanted an AJ push, we're pretty damn happy right now.
2. There's more than three days left in Day 1. Plenty of time for a counter wagon to form, and considering my options are Zoidberg, who I'm not totally vested in as far as the second member of the hydra is concerned, and AJ, which we both want and been pushing and despairing we don't have the votes for? I'm taking AJ and I don't give two fucks what you or TD think.
3. Stop the sophistry of Zoidberg being the only plausable lynch or we have to go all in because it's Day 1.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I didn't say Zoidberg was the only wagon. I said the timing of this counterwagon was suspicious. If y'all always felt AJ was scummy, why wouldn't you have gotten on an AJ train sooner?

Utter lack of support.

No, seriously. A lot of you have gone on about how AJ's scum, but up until now? Haven't done much about it, and I've waited on EK's wagon to materialize and that's gone nowhere.

I hate feeling that a wagon I'm on is going nowhere. My vote does zero for Town. I had jumped on Zoidberg because frankly that was the better options of the one that get presented. A fair amount of you will call someone scum and do zero about it.

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ what is your meta for PA being scum because this looks a lot more like town-PA than scum-PA to me.

Among others, all of her theme games. I may only be present in one theme game at a time, but I read or skim

every

theme game. Her play here is

strongly

reminiscent of Street Racers, and even stronger in its resemblance to WWE Shield. (Both were multiscum games, and thus, there is an assumption present that Ally is faction-specific scum.) This does not seem like the Ally from Mainstream Mafia, 2.5 Men, or Calvin & Hobbes.

Unlike with Grinny and Angel who are harder to read, Ally is an incredibly easy player to get a read on, and I am telling you this is her scum play.

So you're not going to bother substantiating the meta of your meta-based scumread?

I'll be perfectly honest:

The main reason I have not backed up the meta is because I am struggling with a way to explain it that does not compromise the identity of an alternative account of mine. It is something I am finding difficult to achieve, that balance between anonymity and not playing against my win condition, but I am trying. Know that Ally's hydra

is

the scum in the cops, and know that knitty is town; if none of my other reads are listened to, listen to those. I am not lying about my meta experience. In fact, I am downplaying it. That is as much as you will get; as it is, I have said too much.

...so first you read games you weren't in to get your meta read on me, then it's from an alt account's experience with me. I'm not interested in the identity of your alt account. I'm interested in you pointing out something I've actually done this game that's scummy. And questioning your reads on PeregrineV and ArcAngel9 doesn't suffice.

Slandaar, EddieFenix hasn't posted here in a week, although he's apparently been active elsewhere. How did he move ahead of elvis_knits as a lynch candidate from here:

@TD/Slandaar, since we like each other as town (I think), why don't we put together a list of people we are willing to lynch, look at the pros and cons and decide as a unit who we want to lynch?

Sure lets do it
Baezu----Rift-Elvis------Eddie-----------AJ-----------------------------------Angel

Left is preferred lynch obviously and then the distance apart from Baezu is how willing I would be to lynch each. Angel is more of a 'well if I can't get any of my preferred lynches' option.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'd be fine with one, in this instance, if she could talk about it cognizantly. And if it was legitimate meta they could find it from other games.

What do you think about the multiscum/framer shit with aj, slandaar?

This is a fair request. I will see which game best demonstrates where I am coming from.

The bit about multiscum is obsolete now that we know more about the setup, and thus is not something I am pursuing further, but the reasoning behind it if necessary has been provided already: a combination of meta, and how I saw many of my scumreads interacting. As for the part about a framer, I will reiterate once again. Either include the -type suffix I attached or drop the word framer entirely. I have made a point. Dethy is ridiculously easy to break in the town's favor, unless the scum have a way to interfere with them. This role is most likely an active one. The active role interfering with cops specifically that immediately came to mind was framer.

I am not using it to say we shouldn't trust the dethy results. I am saying we should be cautious about them and not make assumptions about the dethy results. I have seen towns lose in a dethy game where the scum had a framer and didn't think that a framer interfering was possible. Had they thought about its existence being possible, it is still possible they would have lost, but they would have been more cautious, thought things through more carefully, and been more rational in their decisions. I suppose you can say that I am arguing we shouldn't

blindly

trust the dethy results. To do so is as equally foolish as to ignore the dethy results entirely.

I'm interested in you pointing out something I've actually done this game that's scummy.

I have done so to some extent already, beyond the meta. For instance, pointing out the distinct cognitive dissonance from your Ghostly half.

1) Unless scum has something that completely changes a read to innocent or guilty, regardless of sanity, the second function of Dethy, finding which cops are accurate, will fire correctly majority of the time and will involve guessing who to target anyway. This is pedantic and an utter waste of mine and everyone else's time. The fact you spent a paragraph on this rather than justifying your accusations or defending yourself amazes me. It also reads of complaining of a game mechanic that isn't fair for scum, which no one complains about except scum.

2) Where's your support for that claim? Where's your support for any claim? I'd say likewise, but you've wandered around not supporting any of your claims since the game began. You post bullcrap about understanding meta without any support.

[Ghostly Penguin]

What nonsensical reads?

Framer is whatever I could see town speculating on it.

Slandaar, AJ has been using the argument, "so and so is town/scum because I have meta that says so" since her first post in this game.

Which, I suppose would be fine if she could continue that thought with, "where they acted in this way, and they flipped Town/Scum there."

Take for example my Metal Sonic read. If I wasn't distinctly paranoid due to the fact that I have a Dethy group and I've already PoEd both you and Rofl as Town; I've been comfortable with Sonic's stuttering, nonsensical play because it matches his behavior in Xenoblade, and he flipped Town here. He posted mostly one liners, and went after TD without much support (which, in his defense, TD WAS scum that game).

Generally, Amrun reads the same way she's read in every game I've played where she's Town, including Pet Rescue and Harry Potter. Shortish bursts of general content, argumentative stances, even to the point where she's almost being directly obstinate.

AJ has even tried to cite games, but she can't cite specific behaviors for her reads, knowing that very few people, already in a Large, will probably not read the entire game. There's also the argument that reading the game, in my opinion, is not the same meta experience than experiencing it, but your mileage may vary on this.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'm not happy with this, honestly. I'd rather lynch AJ. Or EK, but we're giving them a pass because...alt and lurker. No, seriously, that's all I can figure out. I'd be more pissed if we no lynched. So, in the spirit of that:

Unvote.

Vote: Zoidberg

This puts him at L-1. I'd like it if no more votes, please so he can offer a claim and defense, like Baezu got. Which by the way, was also a sub-optimal lynch.

Fine, if you're all so convinced then everyone investigate bro tonight instead of rofl, see if I care.

How about you stop directing members of the Dethy?

What nonsensical reads?

Slandaar, AJ has been using the argument, "so and so is town/scum because I have meta that says so" since her first post in this game.

Which, I suppose would be fine if she could continue that thought with, "where they acted in this way, and they flipped Town/Scum there."

That doesn't make them nonsensical that makes them unexplained. I find her explanation for not explaining them fully reasonable enough. I mean its terrible and why I dislike ALTs but when someone is on an Alt they will have meta and won't want to share incase people figure out who they are so it DOES make sense.

No, it fucking doesn't.

Your reasoning is terrible, any scum can say 'LOL, I'm on an alt' and justify any number of sins. That's even worse than 'because, meta'.

How has this site's meta gotten so crappy that we let off a power lurker who places her vote on a lurker when she called trying to lynch lurkers scummy in the most hypocritical way in a mafia game ever, stirred up shit and left AND are letting Syrup Lady who can't defend her positions except by stalling, saying 'LOL, I'm on an ALT' and 'because, meta'.

SHE CAN GIVE META READS BY CITING SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR. WHY ARE YOU FUCKING LETTING HER GET AWAY WITH THIS?!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

[Ghostly Penguin]

PA and I are having a discussion on whether or not we should claim. We chose folks that we were wavering on Town-wise.

In the meanwhile, no point in NOT doing this:

Vote: Muffin.

[Ghostly Penguin]

PA's reluctant to claim due to the results we got last night in this thread, and I think she's pushing for us to just simply claim in the Dethy.

I am leaning towards just claiming here anyway, because unless the Dethy simply does NOT claim, there is no time where scum won't get our results.

[Ghostly Penguin]

BRO-->MS--->Ourselves--->Slandaar---->ROFL

And I agree with BRO's 2099, if nothing else.

[Ghostly Penguin]

BRO-->MS--->Ourselves--->Slandaar---->ROFL

And I agree with BRO's 2099, if nothing else.

2100, rather.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Titus, that weird ability of yours you just claimed, is it one-shot?

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ was also obviously almost a mirror image stance-wise to Zoidberg. he sucked up to the Dethy. She sucked up to Tiphaine/Xaio/Titus

Does that say anything alignment wise about either of them?

I mean, one sucked up to the Dethy, the other sucked up to obv-towns; and town flips. Does that give you a conclusion on their respective alignments?

Ghostlin's not good at hydra.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Good news--Titus is most certainly town; it would take a certainly creative scum to claim what he did as a fakeclaim, and the ability is bizarre enough to be town.

Bad news--Titus's case with Amrun is disjointed and certainly tainted with information bias.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Tallying up the Dethy votes, I get:

Bro: GP, Metal, Slandaar, rofl, BRO
rofl: GP, Metal, Slandaar, BRO, rofl
GP: BRO, Metal, GP, Slandaar, rofl
Slandaar: GP, Metal, rofl, BRO, Slandaar

And nothing from Metal Sonic that I saw.

At 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, that adds up to:
GP: 18
Metal: 16
BRO: 10
Slandaar: 9
Rofl: 7

So we'll claim results in that order.

We investigated TD and got back innocent.

Metal Sonic, go.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

I thought y'all agreed to check the suspicious players.

Random. With TD directing Dethy last night, I thought it would be worth checking, not knowing his, Xiao's and your status; there had been some concern from the Dethy bloc (I think it was ROFL) about his obv town attitude when the only role that he confirmed was yours. So we investigated TD. There were other candidates as well, but we chose a group of players that had done something confusing to confound their status.

I didn't want to push on a player I found obviously scummy, because I don't know that I'm sane or not.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Grinny would have been sour if Zoidy flipped sweet for avoiding being on the wagon despite threatening to do so. This is reversed by Zoidy flipping sour; Grinny not voting Zoidy made him sweet, as he wouldn't have hesitated as scum to pull the trigger.

Wait. No. This doesn't work that way.

Your argument is predicated on one moment: Peregrine not choosing to hammer/join the wagon (despite threatening to do so).

Which would be weak, but fine except you set this up as PV avoiding the wagon makes him town because he turned out to be scum (which isn't my problem), because as scum he wouldn't have waited to hammer one of his buddies. The problem is, you can't make distancing your argument AND make the idea entirely around hammering someone if they were scum since...newsflash, they didn't hammer. Amrun did.

Distancing happens; a scum PV might be equally relieved he didn't have to pull the trigger.

Here's my problem with the Amrun wagon. (I have no problems with the Eddie one.) It's based on two things: her hammering, and her general reaction to Zoidberg most of the day.

Fact is, she's right. I doubt with a day and some change left, the AJ wagon would have gotten anywhere. Her hammer, while not brilliant, involved the idea that Zoidberg wasn't going to give us further information. Take the difference in example from her and Baezu, another wagon ridden that day. Baezu immediately yielded information under pressure and gave a very town like AtE. Zoidberg resignedly told us he was Vanilla; and essentially nothing else. Bluntly, I don't understand why you are all 'Amrun's scum' when you had essentially two different reactions to threaten to hammer; and one was Town, and one was scum.

Someone had to hammer, and I doubt it'd be anyone with skin in that game. I'm actually not going to grade whether or not Amrun's response was sincere/insincere, that's a scum tone argument and for suckers.

Hell, I fought with the other head over Zoid scum because

she trusted his gut.

It's why he was Tier 2 and we perferred a AJ lynch.

Hey

Muffin

; riddle me this. If you were to go delving into any of those three players metas, what would you find to prove AJ's point about scum? What behaviors has AJ cited that makes us scum, and say...AA9 'slightly sweet'? Do you know what you're looking for?

...But maybe I've beaten that fucking dead horse enough. Here's another one for you: tell me why she went from 'Bazzy is extremely sour and the obvious lynch for today' to 'Bazzy is town and never should be lynched' using her own ISO. There isn't any shift. Her progression goes from "Bazzy the biggest scum and we should lynch" to "Bazzy town, no lynch" after Baezu's claim and defense. Her discussion with another player on how she's 'not on the popular lynches, that's just the way it's setup' is full of shit.

That said, I disagree (surprise!) with AJ's assertion just because scum ratified this push, it's by necessity scum motivated. Scum bus too.

[Ghostly Penguin]

:bites tongue: :@

Titus, you can respond to other things. It's ok. Don't make your tongue bleed.

[Ghostly Penguin]

What "information bias" could be fueling my opinion that Amrun is scummy?

Bluntly, the fact that Zoid flipped scum after Amrun hemmed and hawed about hammering and then hammered quickly when she did.

That's the majority of "Amrun is scum" arguments, and it's pretty lazy.

[Ghostly Penguin]

1) You make the argument said that Amrun's town because Zoidberg wasn't going to get us more information. This is likely the truth. Yet, it goes against Amrun's professed motivation for hammering. Oh my god, Zoidberg's suddenly scummy and the unwritten and fake motivation that Zoidberg's flip was to reveal Bro's alignment. If Amrun thought Zoidberg was scummy (which the post indicated) then you wouldn't need a Zoidberg flip to know that Bro was town. At least one of the three posts is not geunine/retconning. Town can retconn as well but the hammer was all around bad.

2) Bro's reaction to his train probably would have been called terrible (as it was an AtE) if he didn't have the deathy behind him.

3) I'm not sure where you are going with someone had to hammer and you doubted it would be anyone with "skin in that game". What game? *confused*

4) Genuine/insincere is NOT a scum tone argument. It's something that's readily apparent from Amrun's posts.

5) You totally ignore Amrun's vote pattern and her attempts to break up our town block.

1) I don't follow your argument here. Do you believe BRO's town now because of Zoidberg's flip? Because that's what's happening all over Town, so mission accomplished? She mentions Zoid's crap posting before he died as scum was crap, and that's what I'm referencing here.

2) Why are we talking about BRO? The discussion was about Amrun; and due to the Zoidberg flip, I'm seeing the Town narrative be "BRO is Town". Now, I don't 100% buy that because if BRO and Zoidberg were on at the same time, they could of very easily set up the timing argument themselves as a gambit to clear the 'fake' member of the Dethy and buy time. That said, that's probably paranoia talking.

3) Think of it this way: a lynch, in the early days, doesn't have the rabid adherents all voting it unless someone screws the pooch royally. Zoid was bad, but not 'everyone believes 100% he should be the lynch of the day/scum lynch du jour so scaring up 10 votes is easy' bad. At that position in the day, you had people who had doubt, but you don't ever mislynch outside of MYLO so you compromise for information.

Most towns don't get it right, lynch an innocent townie, and you and I would be having a different discussion now.

4) Oh, yes it is. Or let me put it this way: it's piss poor justification, considering 'insincerity' has been called on many players in the past; myself included, and it's a bad argument since due to mood and reaction, I can promise you a lot of people get it wrong, and more like it as scum because it doesn't involve analysis very much. It's very much a 'uh huh/nuh uh' kind of argument.

5) This is the information bias I'm referring to MOST OF ALL. TD was able to verify your role, Xiao and TD were lovers. This wasn't transparent to 85% of the players in this game, so some of us were suspicious of one or all of you. Because we know now they were Town and I believe you to be Town NOW does NOT mean that was readily apparent.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I don't know if the mod will fix the tag, but all of the above -Ghostlin

[Ghostly Penguin]

I thought y'all agreed to check the suspicious players.

Random. With TD directing Dethy last night, I thought it would be worth checking, not knowing his, Xiao's and your status; there had been some concern from the Dethy bloc (I think it was ROFL) about his obv town attitude when the only role that he confirmed was yours. So we investigated TD. There were other candidates as well, but we chose a group of players that had done something confusing to confound their status.

I didn't want to push on a player I found obviously scummy, because I don't know that I'm sane or not.

I don't like this reasoning. It might be that your target died, but the fact you choose the same player out of 16 that the scum did to kill rankles me.

Here's my rebuttal to that:



Some math for you. There are five people in the Dethy, including us and we're not that insane to investigate ourselves or the other members of the Dethy, thank you. Zoidberg was lynched last night. 17-5= 12. 1/12=That's roughly a 8% chance, just throwing fucking darts.

I don't like investigating people I think who are super-duper scum, because if Town's doing their job we'll lynch them and there's an errant possibly I could be wrong anyway, also there's no guarantee of my sanity, so it could very easily be colored by confirmation bias. There's about three people going into today that I thought probably shouldn't be investigated: AJ, Narasha, zMuffin. Let's eliminate those three from the pile. 1/9= 11% chance.

It's actually probably even higher, because I generally trust my Town reads to sort themselves out. I gave three choices to PA that weren't one of these two. She selected two. I chose one and put in our investigation.

My last argument is WIFOM, but I'm going to just fucking say it anyway. Creating a situation, if I was scum, knowing full well what the night kill would be and changing the chances that I'm outed scum from 20% (1/5, the members in the dethy), to 33% (I'm either naive, sane or scum) would be a hell of a gambit to the point I would be playing AGAINST MY OWN WINCON.

Ghostlin is the king of hydraing!

--Penguin, who will make her own post shortly

[Ghostly Penguin]

Actually, my math is wrong; I own that. Assuming that scum doesn't decide to commit suicide and make our jobs easier: out of 17 players alive, there are no more than 4 remaining scum: 1/14-1/15

Assuming they wanted to keep Dethy alive, which they did last night: 1/10-1/11.

That's somewhere in the realm of 9-10% that scum could choose the same person I did.

For me: Dethy players eliminated out of 18 players last night: 1/13 (includes us).

Minus obv scum to Ghostlin: I'm left with a pool of investigating 10 people, so 1/10.

That's like rolling the same number on a d10. It's incredulous, but it happens.

P-EDIT: FUCK I DID IT AGAIN.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Given how blatantly idiotic my fellow Dethy members are being anyways, I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of our investigation choice. And Titus has a good point that if PV is town he shouldn't be in a position to know whether our investigation choice overlapped with the scum kill. If anything, given the order deaths were listed in today's opening post, the assumption should be that Xiao Long was targeted for the NK. As it stands, I suspect they were listed in the same order as the original player list in the OP.

So PV, what gives?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

How convenient it is that Deathy is dead and was practically confirmed town when alive (thus probably one of the main reasons that Deathy was nightkilled). I must re-emphasize how this investigation is about as close to a classic scum investigation as you can get.

I must add, I give even less fucks when you said it when TD said it. That's negative fucks, people.

You're scum. Go die. Thanks.

[Ghostly Penguin]

VOTE: PeregrineV

Too many scum (AJ, zMuffin, PV, someone in the Dethy, is that nearly a wrap?), too few votes.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

VOTE: PeregrineV

Too many scum (AJ, zMuffin, PV, someone in the Dethy, is that nearly a wrap?), too few votes.

--Penguin

Yeah, I guess you could have investigated me then you'd know for sure, right?

No, because we don't know our sanity/naivety/paranoia status. Try to keep up. Oh, no, wait, you supposedly don't know that TD-XL flipped lovers. So that's a lost cause.

More seriously, if you want to know why the other Dethy people wanted us to go first, ask them. I maintain widespread idiocy, but do go ahead and elaborate on what 'struck you wrong' yesterday.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

rofl, explain why PV would assume scum shot TD and not XL. And I'm really getting bored with people not thinking. For starters, do address Ghostlin's point from the end of #2214/#2215.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Re: the PV vote.

We're going to talk about something I'm fond of in mafia theory, the narrative, in my explanation of why I agreed to vote PV right now in this juncture.

Someone said in the game that scum do not necessarily like confirmed Townies. Don't remember who, and it's possible I'm game crossed.

Here's the thing: due to my blundering and sending in a investigation in on someone who's dead, the town has three options on our slot: we're either Naive (in which case we're a fancy mason who thinks everyone is innocent)/A Sane Cop (in which case we can investigate and get accurate results on everyone) or Scum. Scum only has two options: we are either a confirmed town Mason that gets innocent results on everyone or a sane cop, which is possibly the most dangerous role to them in the game.

Hence I do not buy that

both

PV and AJ would find the idea of us investigating a dead guy suspicious genuine. I think it's possibly a scum gambit on at least one of their parts; and I'm actually agape at PV's whole 'oh, Xiao's dead...lovers, what lovers?' Either he fell asleep the last few pages where we talked about Titus, TD and Xiao being shot, or he's faking it. I want to have a discussion on the things I just discussed. I want the possibility of the narrative revealed, so hence the PV vote.

I want to be clear as glass here: this doesn't mean this slot has reversed their ideas on Elvis. It does not mean that we find AJ town (and I'm snickering with incredulity as I type that sentence). It means that due to the above reasons and the existence of the narrative, PV could possibly be scum and I found another reason why I think AJ is scum is well. They're so scum that they're keeping their options open but not bothering to push the lynch.

Now. If you think I'm full of shit and scum, then vote this slot. But this is literally what's going through my mind when I hear this discussion folks:

scum is sure we're not one of them, there's a 50% chance to them this slot is sane, and we've played this game less than perfectly

.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, I've investigated a dead guy before in a large. That PV was in. So I'm still stunned that PV is not believe this very likely event could not occur.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'd like to do something provocative, and insist on a moratorium on lynching last night's investigation targets.

I wish to not disclose the reasons why.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'd like to do something provocative, and insist on a moratorium on lynching last night's investigation targets.

I wish to not disclose the reasons why.

Who do you think is the most likely scum in the Dethy?

Still not 100% convinced that BRO is what he seems, but that might be bias. I see we're alone in this opinion; regardless, not lynching from that list can help us tighten reads where ever.

MS is the most useless of the Dethy players. And I'm not sure that's really up to Xenosaga standard, even, anymore.

Rofl's making me slightly twitchy; posting here is not different than posting in the thread, but that could easily be a knee-jerk to something I do not personally agree with.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Moratorium= one night.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Amrun (2) - Titus, zMuffinMan
zMuffinMan

(6)

- roflcopter, BROseidon, Ghostly Penguin, Amrun, Slandaar, Metal Sonic
Natisrasha (2) - oriole, PeregrineV
Slandaar (1) -

Romeo

Not Voting (7) - ArcAngel9, Aunt Jemina, StubbsKVM, Baezu, Natisrasha,

Juliet

, Rift Adrift

With 16 alive (+2 votes), it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-25 17:07:50)

I thought y'all agreed to check the suspicious players.

Random. With TD directing Dethy last night, I thought it would be worth checking, not knowing his, Xiao's and your status; there had been some concern from the Dethy bloc (I think it was ROFL) about his obv town attitude when the only role that he confirmed was yours. So we investigated TD. There were other candidates as well, but we chose a group of players that had done something confusing to confound their status.

I didn't want to push on a player I found obviously scummy, because I don't know that I'm sane or not.

I don't like this reasoning. It might be that your target died, but the fact you choose the same player out of 16 that the scum did to kill rankles me.

Amrun (3) - Titus, zMuffinMan, Aunt Jemina
zMuffinMan

(4)

- roflcopter, BROseidon, Slandaar, Metal Sonic
Natisrasha (2) - oriole, PeregrineV
PeregrineV (3) - Amrun, Ghostly Penguin,

Romeo

Not Voting (6) - ArcAngel9, StubbsKVM, Baezu, Natisrasha,

Juliet

, Rift Adrift

With 16 alive (+2 votes), it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-25 17:07:50)

Please note the sequence here. Romeo/TD is voting Slandaar. PV makes a post indicating he has knowledge of which of TD-XL was the NK target. Romeo/TD switches his vote to PV with full knowledge that we're also voting PV and that we chose to investigate him.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I think Amrun and Ghostly are pretty much tied at the hip. Amrun seems to be the major wagon right now. Ghostly defends the crap out of Amrun and then says let's not lynch the investigation targets but doesn't say why. He says it's for reasons. Frankly, lynching Amrun would be a huge benefit in terms of finding out Ghostly's alignment IMO.

I'm sick of this. You actually believe the smoke you're blowing up town's ass, you and AJ and PV? VOTE US.

THERE IS A VERY DEFINITIVE REASON I DON'T WANT ANYONE FROM TONIGHT'S INVESTIGATION'S LYNCHED. THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO OTHER OPTIONS FROM A PLETHORA THAT YOU CAN LYNCH TONIGHT. NO, YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE REASON UNTIL DAY 3. DON'T LIKE THAT? SIT AND SPIN.

[Ghostly Penguin]

SERIOUSLY. HALF OF YOU ARE SAYING SHIT THAT'S NOT EVEN --TRUE-- ANYMORE.

[Ghostly Penguin]

...so I was going to come back and 'sign' for #2357, but I suspect we're all clear on that count, y/y?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

We investigated TD and got back innocent.

How convenient it is that Deathy is dead and was practically confirmed town when alive (thus probably one of the main reasons that Deathy was nightkilled).

I must re-emphasize how this investigation is about as close to a classic scum investigation as you can get.

Not true mostly because I'd be kind of dumb to make it so easily objective on the dead guy. Also, since I'm not scum or psychic, I couldn't have known TD would of been shot (and in fact, he may have not been, but his more obv Town partner Xiao).

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I think Amrun and Ghostly are pretty much tied at the hip. Amrun seems to be the major wagon right now. Ghostly defends the crap out of Amrun and then says let's not lynch the investigation targets but doesn't say why. He says it's for reasons. Frankly, lynching Amrun would be a huge benefit in terms of finding out Ghostly's alignment IMO.

Not true because of the last vote count. There are plenty of more non-Amrun options. This one's not even subjectively true. (As in, this isn't up for debate the truth of the matter, oriole covers it in his post.)

[Ghostly Penguin]

I don't like this reasoning. It might be that your target died, but the fact you choose the same player out of 16 that the scum did to kill rankles me.

Not true as of the beginning of Day 2. The response: 'derp, I guess I didn't read the thing we've already talked about.'

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I think Amrun and Ghostly are pretty much tied at the hip. Amrun seems to be the major wagon right now. Ghostly defends the crap out of Amrun and then says let's not lynch the investigation targets but doesn't say why. He says it's for reasons. Frankly, lynching Amrun would be a huge benefit in terms of finding out Ghostly's alignment IMO.

Not true because of the last vote count. There are plenty of more non-Amrun options. This one's not even subjectively true. (As in, this isn't up for debate the truth of the matter, oriole covers it in his post.)

Your claim about not lynching the investigation targets is more about protecting Amrun than any real statement. We aren't going to lynch me unless I volunteer for it and we aren't going to lynch stubbs. So you're just pleading for Amrun's life again. That's all your "reasons later" posturing is.

Alright. Since you're being a know-it-all ass, I need Amrun alive to check what result I get on her.

Innocent would mean that town would have the same choices as before for this slot's veracity.
Guilty would mean that we're either sane or scum. At which case you could lynch me or Amrun to verify, I don't give a shit.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Here. Raw data from today's investigations:

GP must either be Naive or Sane. (from our point of view)
MS can be anything but paranoid. (Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum)
BRO can be anything but naive. (Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum)
Slandaar can be anything but paranoid. (Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum)
Rofl....I hope to see his investigation tonight.

Can be sane: MS, BRO, GP
Can be insane: BRO, MS, Slandaar
Can be paranoid: BRO
Can be naive: MS, Slandaar, GP
Can be scum: everyone except us in the Dethy.

There. Is that enough hand holding for my reasons, or do I need to go more apeshit on you??

[Ghostly Penguin]

Ghostlin and I do agree that rofl is being completely absurd in not sharing his investigation results and needs to get over himself. The train for the strategy of sharing the results in the Dethy QT first left the station a while ago.

And Titus, what's your take on the fact that confirmed town TD-Romeo is voting PV? As per #2357?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Again, this is just more pleading to keep Amrun alive so you can scum vouch for him. Why would you decide who you're checking this early in the day? Shit happens. Maybe someone scummier comes up.

There's also plenty of other people for you to check. Why do you feel wedded to checking Amrun?

That's the one thing I agree on. Rofl needs to share his results, especially if they conflict with someone. If he totally fucked up, he needs to say so. We can deal with that.

Oh, god. I'm going to have to draw you a chart, aren't I?

BRO's result is the only guilty from the Dethy that we know of. We are the only confirmed innocent result due to the flip. BRO and us cannot have the same result for Amrun unless we are sane or scum trying to be sane because the only options in alignments, as shown FROM THE FUCKING TABLE I JUST GAVE YOU FOR FREE.

I want to determine if we are sane. If we get a guilty result on Amrun, then you only have the options left to lynch us or Amrun to determine who's accurate.

If we get a innocent result, you can continue arguing points where you obviously failed logic forever. And we can lynch Amrun or not. I think she's town, but I'll go all fucking in if I get that guilty.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Again, this is just more pleading to keep Amrun alive so you can scum vouch for him. Why would you decide who you're checking this early in the day? Shit happens. Maybe someone scummier comes up.

There's also plenty of other people for you to check. Why do you feel wedded to checking Amrun?

That's the one thing I agree on. Rofl needs to share his results, especially if they conflict with someone. If he totally fucked up, he needs to say so. We can deal with that.

Dude, let me spell this out for you. Our current thinking is, we investigate Amrun. An innocent result tells us nothing. A guilty result does, namely that Amrun is scum. There is no way for anyone to 'scum vouch' for a buddy at present. Also, key word here, 'current.' We obviously haven't sent in our investigation yet because it's day phase.

And again:

And Titus, what's your take on the fact that confirmed town TD-Romeo is voting PV? As per #2357?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

OK, so why would TD think PV is the best lynch?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

No, because the rest of the cops need his info to evaluate their own target choices. Those of us acting in good faith know we're town. We probably all have at least one other town read within the dethy. Just going off that, we can start to whittle down scenarios, but that takes time, and we need to be able to send in investigations ourselves. The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid. That would be irritating, as scum would have a two in three shot of hitting a useful investigative role, but it also makes you conf-town and would let us find the insane cop (who would have found scum night one as a result) and consider the day one events leading up to the dethy reveal more completely. To elaborate on the insane cop, even if scum hit said insane cop with the NK (which would be one in two, since we can't be insane) we have his investigation on record. The other three would be forced to report back innocent results on you, either as sane/naive or as scum masquerading.

Him not revealing his result until effectively day three is decidedly sub-optimal play.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

@Ghostly, why couldn't Bro be sane?

Key word 'whether.' Based on other reads I have, I personally doubt it. It remains possible, as my reads aren't error-proof. However, if rofl reveals an innocent result, BRO must be paranoid.

The other thing I don't love about rofl waiting to reveal is that if he's scum, it gives him time to consult with fellow scum overnight and make an optimal claim for his faction's long-term plan. As I tend to doubt that he anticipated us narrowing down our personal sanity to sane or naive if he's scum, and so whatever fake result he might have had would need to be adjusted.

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

And hey, Titus, how's about you take another look at PV knowing that Romeo and Juliet are voting there? Do some of that reevaluating you were considering.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

@Rift, I cannot see the point in withholding though. Yeah, the information won't be lost but still, I'm not a fan of withholding for ~reasons~ unless absolutely necessary.

@Ghostly, again you are supposing that BRO cannot be insane? If you get an innocent response, then Bro's possibilities are insane/paranoid. Yet, you exclude insane. Why?

Your rationale is right on the refusal to claim, that is what worries me.

I do intend to do that reevaluation. It takes some time. I'll tell you when I am done. Patience.

...it's like three posts from PV. It's not complicated.

Apparently you're not following. Maybe I'm not laying out my thoughts clearly enough. BRO got a guilty. No one else that we know of did. We know there's a paranoid cop. That person only gets guilties. IF rofl got an innocent, BRO is the only possible dethy member who can be the paranoid cop. That means: a) he is confirmed town, aside from any speculation from Zoidberg's flip, and b) whoever the insane cop is (rofl, Slandaar, MS, NOT us due to our innocent result on town) found scum last night, as their innocent is an effective guilty. Those who can still be insane cops target BRO. Whoever gets back a guilty is therefore insane. If in the same night scum kills BRO, it's irrelevant to results. If they kill the one of {rofl, Slandaar, MS} who is naive/sane, scum either returns an innocent, confirming the third as insane, or also sends in guilty, and narrows scum in the dethy down to two people. Sending in an innocent here restricts scum to either themselves or us, and I know which of those is true. If they kill the insane one, we know that person's sanity and we get their Night One found-scum anyways.

This only applies if rofl got an innocent result. If he got a guilty, it doesn't. But it's a great plan if we can determine that BRO is paranoid, plus it decreases the number of relevant targets for any protective roles to choose from. If rofl delays sharing his results, the dethy can't implement it.

BRO says he's thinking long-term. For now we can assume one scum team from one NK. Likely no more than five scum. One's lynched, one's in the dethy, one could be nailed in the above scenario. Even if we lose one legit cop tonight, we still have another one, and there are likely other useful PRs around. If we can't find two scum in 16 - (d2 lynch) - (n2 kill) - (insane scum result) - (n3 kill) - (5 dethy) = remaining options of seven players, discounting any other possible investigation results from sane/protected insane cop, we're screwed anyways. And that's assuming we don't lynch correctly today, and the dethy don't overlap with the NK targets. So it could be closer to one or two scum in nine, which leaves minimum two mislynches' breathing room.

How much more long-term do you want, seriously?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

I don't know if we're sane or naive. Obviously you have to consider that we could also be scum. (Which you're doing quite well, kudos!) If rofl got a guilty, BRO can be sane. If we investigate Amrun and get a guilty, we know that we're sane, Amrun is scum, and BRO is either paranoid or scum. An innocent from us on Amrun tells us nothing. But that's down the line.

In the meantime, our (mine, really, Ghostlin might think my plan is horrendous) statements are considering how the situation can be optimized if BRO is shown to be paranoid. That has nothing to do with scenarios in which BRO cannot be confirmed as paranoid and so his sanity/alignment would remain in doubt.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Addendum: So that's the problem. Go here and read about Dethy. Any of my fellow dethy can confirm that this is what we have, minus the cop headstart. One paranoid by definition.

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

Bluntly, the entire predicate revolves around ROFL's investigation.

If he got a guilty, then either he or BRO must be paranoid; and the other is either insane or lying.

If he got an innocent, BRO is paranoid. BRO cannot be the scum in the Dethy investigation. BRO becomes a confirmed mason. Scum hate confirmed townies, which might be the town reason why ROFL doesn't want to reveal this until almost too late to do anything about it.

ROFL Innocent gets following alignments (from the perspective of town):

MS: naive, sane, insane, scum
GP: naive, sane, scum
ROFL: naive, sane, insane, scum
BRO: paranoid (and confirmed Town)
Slandaar: naive, sane, insane, scum

ROFL Guilty gets following alignments (from the perspective of town):
MS: naive, sane, insane, scum
GP: naive, sane, scum
ROFL: paranoid, sane, insane, scum
BRO: paranoid, sane, insane, scum
Slandaar: naive, sane, insane, scum

If we (GP) can investigate a single guilty and get a guilty as well, we could possibly eliminate the 'naive' possibility as well. It doesn't need Amrun to work, but without further guiltys, I don't know how else to check. Nor, since it could possibly clear a mason, do I want ROFL to claim now. (PA and the rest of you might strangle me for this; I don't care.) Then it would be up to the work of Town to decide if we're telling the truth or going for broke. In fact, I might even advocate for my own lynch, since it would make my results 100% without any outside interference.

I still like our vote on PV. The fact that the TOWN CONFIRMED ghosts are voting for PV are bolstering my resolve.

Barring that, I could go for Eddie's slot (Nat's meh, honestly. I don't have good feels about their play), AJ (I know, you're all shocked. I'm surprised she's not come in and say how scummy we are, how you should all feel that way but not vote us), and possibly talking Stubbs in alignment, we did have scum reads on him Day 1, but I'm not convinced that wasn't somewhat scum fueled (although bussing happens). Muffin could also yield information, but I'm on the fence about him right now, he's got some good information and is a lot more vested than EK.

I am taking off Amrun (despite wanting to investigate her, I don't think she's scum), and BRO (who is the closest to confirmed mason) off the table today. Baezu's off the table still for Day 1. RA I feel pretty damn good about right now, actually.

Pending the investigation by ROFL, this is what I have PoE wise:

Assuming no more than four or five scum, this is what I, GHOSTLIN, HAVE:

Town: Amrun, RA, Titus (who's pretty much role confirmed, and I don't think that's a scum role), BRO (at this point this is if ROFL's got an inno, this is confirmed), Two of (Slandaar, ROFL, MS; definition of Dethy), oriole (who's been feeling things out and giving me good vibrations), Baezu (day 1 AND IF AJ flips scum she's probably super special shiny Town).

Scum: Nat, AJ, PV, possibly one of (AA9, Stubbs, Muff), one of (Slandaar, ROFL, MS).

There is an edit here; I forgot the existence of PV, who is scum.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Ghosty is also scum for thinking Brossy could be scum. Brossy is confirmed town because even if rofl got a guilty, only having two (when all innocents are on credibly-town targets) guilties would confirm both the guilty-claiming cops as town.

This is wrong. You see, someone has to be insane and/or scum, and until we know beyond Titus (who is role confirmed) and TD (who is dead), this presume about your innanely nicknamed 'Brossy' doesn't mean he's confirmed Town. Slandaar can still be insane if ROFL has a guilty, and ROFL can be paranoid. Granted, the odds of BRO being scum even on a ROFL guilty aren't as great as they were going to sleep Day 1. But you seem to think you know more about this game than you should, so please continue with the speculation.

To wit:
GP: investigated TD, got innocent (TD is flipped green)
BRO: investigated Amrun, got guilty (no flip)
Slandaar: investigated Titus, Titus is role confirmed by green flip TD, has a role that's very unlikely to be scum
MS: investigated Stubbs, got innocent (no flip)
ROFL: ??????? (probably not flipped unless he investigated Xiao/TD last night)

Using this information, subtracting

any result of scum

:
GP: sane, naive
BRO: insane, paranoid*, sane
Slandaar: sane, naive
MS: sane, insane, naive
ROFL: literally anything, but if guilty: paranoid, insane, sane
if innocent: sane, insane, naive

*=this is confirmed with a ROFL innocent investigation.

Having investigated Deathy last night and gotten back innocent, a town-Ghosty would know that paranoid would be impossible.

[sarcasm]Oh, my god. You found a moment where I wasn't playing with a spread sheet. And scum slips are the most credible thing in mafia today. They almost never lead to Town lynches. Am I right, guys?[/sarcasm]

Seeing your logic is crap (not all the innocents were on Town -confirmed- targets, above), I'm not surprised you updated your 'because, meta' reasoning to 'OMG, Ghosty scumslipped, kill it.' No one who gives two damns is this lazy.

ok what is going on now

lets just lynch amrun JUST BECAUSE


muffin is really good btw but just to eliminate scum possibility once we get our dethy working someone needs to check him

Because all the best lynches happen JUST BECAUSE.

You don't really give a shit if Amrun's innocent or guilty, do you?

Also, you and I both know AJ, had you been reading the thread, I had posted my Dethy sanities from Town perspective, so you know my 'slip' isn't really one. So continue to spin the bullshit you've been spinning all game. There's a huge difference between 'I read all Large Themes' and 'I skim Large Themes'.

FML.

[Ghostly Penguin]

AJ, explain to me how the only possibilities for an innocent result is "sane" and "naive."

Because Ghostlin checked TD.

AJ is saying that Ghostlin is forgetting which sanities he can be. Not that difficult.

There are two of us, you know. Just because my winning personality and forceful swearing invective that I have graciously graced Town with often doesn't mean I'm doing all the work in this slot.

[Ghostly Penguin]

test


lets have a flip i am bored

We don't exist for your fucking amusement.

How about you give us reasons for your reads that aren't just aping ROFL?

VOTE: Natirasha

Titus, I don't really have any other scum suspects at this point.
I can't even say Who I think is scum in the deathy. I think I need to reread on some people.

I still have a town read on Amrun from day 1. I can see why people are voting her. But I think the deathy will get a result on her in the end, so I don't really see much reason to Lynch her today.

We won't if she gets lynched. Could you elaborate on some of the people you like for Town/Scum?

Also, Nat; what do you mean by 'chainsawed Day 1 by known scum?' Do you think chainsaw defenses are at all useful tools without the flips to back them up?

I swear, someday I'll get comfortable at hydra.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Alright. Let's just fuck everything I've said about BRO to this point for a second. Evaluate the last two posts MS just made. Is it just me, or are they made with the perspective of someone who just wants to get on with the lynch and is cocky that he's not going to get caught?

There's a tone there that reads like this. I swear. I might be getting paranoid (not the sanity before someone gets up our grill about it), but that's not reading town confidence, that's scum confidence, and if Amrun flips Town, Sonic's probably your dethy scum, even beyond the others pushing the Amrun lynch today.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Although, there are times I wonder why I'm even fucking trying considering 90% of the player list:

*Thinks we're scum BUT
*Is entirely too lazy and bought into the idea that Dethy will fix itself without lynches.

Maybe so I can look like fucking Cassandra when you do get the balls to lynch this slot.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Remind me why you're voting PV again?

#2254 explains some of the reasons I'm voting PV.

Honestly, it may be paranoia, but I'm finding it incredible that we reveal our result, and one of our longest running scum reads from Day 1, to the point that I almost fucking cried when that wagon dissolved and PV had the same reaction:

"We find it suspicious that you investigated a guy that scum shot/is dead."

One player voicing it? I expected AJ to voice that sentiment, I could almost reveal our slot as a fucking Innocent Child at this point and she'd doubledown on her 'because, meta' reasoning. But a player like PV, who seemed to dislike this and find it borderline scummy after declaring us as a weak Town read in #1125? Note, he actually doesn't call us SCUM, he doesn't LIKE THE FACT WE INVESTIGATED A DEAD GUY.

He also then goes 'derp' when Penguin points out that Xiao could of died. You know, lovers and all that. (And the fact that if you believe Titus and there's no reason not to considering TD's freak-out Day 1, Xiao would of certainly been the one to be shot.)

His progression of reads sucks for the above reasons, his ISO is sparse; and the reason above makes me cry.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, while I'm not a fan of judging sincerity in posts, I didn't like the fact that his response was 'derp' to the Xiao/TD connection.

[Ghostly Penguin]

@Rift Adrift, Biggest nonsense contributor, don't think so. I've been the biggest presenter of the case against Amrun and that it shifted your read isn't nonsense at all.

Amrun case aside, you engaged in an spiraling death argument over what the Amrun investigation would mean.

Dude, after a point I didn't even give a fuck anymore and I proposed the fucking plan. And even then, PA and I had to tag team holding your hand/shouting at you/banging the wall in our QT in miserable, agonizing, fucking frustration.

Part of it's role verification, part of it is that I don't believe you'd misunderstand what you misunderstood as scum (which yes, is ironic considering my PV argument, but there is a difference--you fought back and PV just went 'derp' when cornered) but even if you want to say that finding the Amrun case which I don't agree with is your greatest moment, there are times you've been illogical, pointlessly arrogant and argumentative in your arguments.

[Ghostly Penguin]

@Baezu, I'm really not liking that sheep.

I'm going to back Syry up here: AND...what are you going to do about it? Pretend what happened Day 1 didn't happen? Pretend she actually didn't provide content when she did in that post?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Aww, shucks. Got any thoughts on the rest of m'list, Ghostlin?

BRO as a Town read: yes, because at this point it's growing statistically unlikely he's scum. It's still possible, despite the bullshit AJ wants you to believe, but this head is feeling MS is Dethy scum.

Oriole's town. And one of the only people in this thread I'm not genuinely frustrated with.

Slandaar/ROFL: We both agree with you that these folks are town. We've had our paranoia moments (ROFL not claiming, going 'oh, fuck, BRO's probably Dethy Town and not Dethy scum, and so Slandaar's a possibilty...' but generally they're town.

Muffin has almost completely rehabbed a slot that I'm only still eyeing because EK was SO BAD. I generally agree with you, but still paranoid from the prior owner of that slot.

It seems to be a mafiascum law that there is a player who is practically or exactly confirmed Town that I want to scream with abject frustration each time they post. Titus is that person in this game.

Baezu's lulled herself into complacency, but I stand by what I said when I rescinded her hammer.

Yes. I disagree with you with PV. Oh, boy do I disagree with you, but at least unlike most of Town, you see my fucking point.

Amrun...I want to investigate her, find out my sanity, but it's breaking my heart because I feel she's Town still and the hammer posting and the reads on Zoidberg weren't fake. Here's a good example: I generally thought MS was playing his normal play until about three pages ago when he started pushing a lynch, any lynch and started going fuck all all over the thread. To the point I was really sweating finding the scum Dethy. Then...yeah, he's getting cocky with the Amrun lynch, and he's joined by two other of my scumreads, and one of yours.

Stubbs: I think PA thinks he's scum. I think he's a passable lynch due to the light amount of lifting he's doing. Either way, he's not terrifically protown and I don't...yeah, the AJ post pressed the 'not credible' button for me.

AA9's replacement: I'll say this to them: You better be good, dude/dudette. You're replacing into a slot that's fuck all all game. And is prime scum bait/compromise lynch fodder.

AJ: FUCK YES. I wanna buy you a beer. Ffery, you were right, I -do- like him.

MS: Yes. He's so scum, he's radiating the vibes to the naked eye. But, you guys might need a for instance:

I played, recently, a game where there were 14 players but only one day phase; and then a guessing game to find the scum. One of the scum players would be allowed to flee if we mislynched. Some of mafia's better players came out for this. DGB, Benmage, kuribo, to name a few.

Benmage had been proposing crap but somewhat townie ideas all game, but all of a sudden, he takes a dive. Like posting all smilies. To the point where I was tempted to unvote him, but we continued to ride the wagon.

We mislynched. Benmage ran. Only one person won by correctly guessing Kuribo was the scum.

The game link is here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28206

Sonic is the Benmage Fortnight of this game.

Nat: Eddie was horrible, Nat's meh, I'd be ok with lynching this slot.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also worth mentioning that AJ should be familar with this game and my Town meta because I was Town in this game, and AJ has at least, skimmed, all Large Theme games.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Making an elaborate OMGUS is still an OMGUS

Considering OMGUS isn't normally considered a scum tell...

no, wait, still don't give enough fucks to refute this horrible, awful, idiotic point on why I'm scum.

Let me unfurl the investigation process for you. I went to PA, "Here's three people I was sort of wavering on but not a scum read today."

She told me to investigate TD and someone else. I, with the power of flipping a coin, chose TD. As much as I adore hearing how clever I am as scum that I'd choose a dead guy that would place me closer to being found out in the Dethy, it really was an accident of chance.

I will tell you that this hydra considered Xiao/Jarbarkus Town and DID NOT have him on the list.

As for why we went right around from BRO to us: besides god-awful PoE with BRO revealing a guilty, I can't hazard a guess. I actually don't think BRO, ROFL and Slandaar are scum, honestly. The question seems manufactured to seem like your scum hunting, but not really.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Really you considered Xiao more town than TD?

This sounds like bullshit to explain a lookout seeing you visit TD.

Why in the world world TD be scummy? When he's confaligned with someone you view as town?

And with my psychic abilities, I knew this Day 1.

[Ghostly Penguin]

No, really, Titus. Consider my entire speech day 1 (my speech, not PA's) about hidden information, and you know full why that line of questioning was utter bullshit. TD was trying to direct the Dethy Day 1 and seemed to be riding high on a curve of bizarre confirmation because he confirmed you did SOMETHING.

[Ghostly Penguin]

You have no psychic abilities. That's a non-answer. What the hell are you doing?

It's sarcasm. Let me help you by giving the definition:

sar·casm [sahr-kaz-uhm]
noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

You may have not noticed, but I've used it occasionally in this game to outline a point.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Here's something for you all:

Explain to me how a role thief vanilla-izer, both of which have some utility in this game for scum, claiming at L-6, is a Town thing to be doing.

Nat wasn't even the leading wagon TODAY. The last time I saw this, we ended up lynching the player doing it. With fire. Guess what?

THEY WERE SCUM.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Here's my thoughts on the TD/Titus/Xiao Lang/Baezu thing:

Unfortunately, except for the opposing team, Mafia is a game of hidden information (role PMs and abilities for example).

Occasionally, you can prove/disprove certain things privately with your hidden information. Your hidden information may in fact be golden.

Without a certain level of evidence that you almost never want to reveal, that level of hidden information is almost never acceptable to any other player outside of your circle. And your hidden information may be influenced or wrong.

It's why we don't trust it. It has really not much to do with Mafia theory in and of itself, but we're not privy and you'd be foolish to part with it.

So. While I don't necessarily doubt you feel your information is correct; I'm going to treat it as if you it didn't exist, particularly since you might be lying to me.

You do not remember this, Titus? BECAUSE I PUT IT IN THE GODDAMN THREAD.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Why did you think TD was scum?

Where did I say I thought TD was scum?

Because 2647 actually says he wasn't a scum read. "People who are not a scum read, but I'm wavering on." Reread 2647, make sure you understand that and 1045, and understand the fact that there's no goddamn way I could of known TD and Xiao were lovers. I had TD as a Town read, but was annoyed and shaken by the Dethy coaching he performed. Which I told him I was annoyed with AT THE FUCKING TIME. It seemed oddly -NOT- town at the time.

Once you understand that, you can pick apart the process we used.

If you try, in any sense to bring up the fact that I should have somehow known they were lovers, or try to insinuate that TD was a scum read when I didn't call him one, I will brutally ignore you for the remainder of the game. This discussion is so many epic levels of stupid that I, myself, as Ghostlin, can't comprehend how you can't understand these rather simple concepts.

[Ghostly Penguin]

In fact, I don't use strong scum or town reads as investigation targets, particularly not in a Dethy due to my own confirmation...

haven't I explained this before?

Oh, yeah, I explained it in 2215: I don't like investigating people I think who are super-duper scum, because if Town's doing their job we'll lynch them and there's an errant possibly I could be wrong anyway, also there's no guarantee of my sanity, so it could very easily be colored by confirmation bias. There's about three people going into today that I thought probably shouldn't be investigated: AJ, Narasha, zMuffin. Let's eliminate those three from the pile..

[Ghostly Penguin]

But anyway, if you actually believe it's a scum claim, why aren't you voting him?

I'm tempted to, but PA has to be similarly invested (ie, she has to agree to remove our vote on scum PV).

Explain to me how the claim's town. Also, read this game, particular end of Day 1: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28438

Do you see possible connections between this game and MM's claim?


AJ, you've not discussed your meta reads so much it's Day 2 and we're still talking about how you've not talked about your meta reads Day 1.

I really feel you're a veiled one of these to the entire Town:

Oriole, I know, right? It's almost like he's scum.

[Ghostly Penguin]

But anyway, if you actually believe it's a scum claim, why aren't you voting him?

I'm tempted to, but PA has to be similarly invested (ie, she has to agree to remove our vote on scum PV).

Explain to me how the claim's town. Also, read this game, particular end of Day 1: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28438

Do you see possible connections between this game and MM's claim?


AJ, you've not discussed your meta reads so much it's Day 2 and we're still talking about how you've not talked about your meta reads Day 1.

I really feel you're a veiled one of these to the entire Town:

Oriole, I know, right? It's almost like he's scum.

Can you explain in clearer detail wtf you're going on about a game that, mind you, started before I even returned to the site, about a theme I don't care about, and a role that has little semblance to mine?

So...MM claims at L-4, when she's not the only leading wagon, without any impetus from anyone else Day 1, a PR that might be useful to Town (Dreamwalker/Doctor, think of Dreamwalker as a limited commute/neighborizer). The town lynches her two Days later, and she turns out to be scum. One of the things that also overlaps is while Town did have her tied, she was not necessarily the leading wagon of suspicion, the Town had pretty much gone on and off Milkshake all day long.

[Ghostly Penguin]

MS stuff is dumb. Don't care how sure you are. Stop being bad.

This I agree with. As much as I think he's going to end up rightfully in a noose at some point, the dethy will have a much better idea of what possibilities remain once rofl claims and we have a second round of investigations to work with.

PV, in response to this:

OK, caught up.

Ghost Penguin

Fact: Long died last night.
Fact: TD died last night.
Claim: Titus put a bomb on TD that would cause his death to PGO the killer. Based on claim, Long was killed last night, unless bomb was nullified, etc.
Fact: If Long was actual NK target, then, based on claims, TD would die.
Fact: If TD was actual NK target like you profess I "slipped" on, then you would suspect Titus' claim, unless you think a mafia anti-bomb role exists.
Fact: You have no scum-read on Titus, and have called him town, thus you believe the bomb-thing, but have not managed to speculate how it "did not go off" if I am correctly calling TD the actual night kill target.
Fact: Apparently both of your heads "overlooked" this logic train, so have managed to believe I "slipped", when it's not possible if Titus is town.
Fact: I tend to think Titus is town, which means Long's death probably triggered TD's, but, I don't really care. Dead is dead, and the main point was I don't like the fact you "investigated" a person who is dead. Your response of 2214 is less than encouraging.

I also asked why the Dethy swung to you-scum overnight.

More seriously, if you want to know why the other Dethy people wanted us to go first, ask them. I maintain widespread idiocy, but do go ahead and elaborate on what 'struck you wrong' yesterday.

I want to hear from YOU why they did it. From YOUR point of view, 3 town and 1 scum now found you scummier than the prior day. If they didn't state why, why aren't you curious as to the why? Was the shift town-led or scum-led?
You are the only Dethy hydra, so I'd expect 2x the opinions on each dethy player.

I don't know what scum might have had to prevent a death by bomb if they NK'd HD. Might not even have been them; maybe a town protective role targeted the scum killer. There are many possibilities and no reason to rule any of them out. You say now that you don't like us investigating a dead person, never mind that it narrows the possibilities of what we could fake as scum, but here's the original post you make in the subject:

I thought y'all agreed to check the suspicious players.

Random. With TD directing Dethy last night, I thought it would be worth checking, not knowing his, Xiao's and your status; there had been some concern from the Dethy bloc (I think it was ROFL) about his obv town attitude when the only role that he confirmed was yours. So we investigated TD. There were other candidates as well, but we chose a group of players that had done something confusing to confound their status.

I didn't want to push on a player I found obviously scummy, because I don't know that I'm sane or not.

I don't like this reasoning. It might be that your target died, but the fact you choose the same player out of 16 that the scum did to kill rankles me.

that the scum did to kill

You were quite specific. I find it suspicious that you gloss over that afterwards, saying that dead is dead.

Again, ask the other dethy if you want to know why they had us go first. Although you say that one scum is scumreading us harder--what? How does that become relevant? Scum's 'reads' are lies by definition. And I don't really care if they're managing to misread us, all independent thought aside. As people have been saying all along, the results will sort us out in the end.

Why do you expect us to have twice as many thoughts about our fellow dethy? It's not rocket science; in each case we have reasons to find them more or less towny or scummy. Working from similar pools of information means a lot of those reasons overlap. Those reads will then inform scenarios that we consider in picking a target (maybe Amrun, maybe not) to optimize getting useful results for the town if we're sane and eliminating us as effectively a neighbor if we're naive.

Having said that, MS being on the Natirasha lynch makes me uneasy about it. Ghostlin and I are hammering that out.

This:

Okay, although I still would prefer Amrun, I'm willing to roll with the Metal Sonic lynch. But you guys do realize that, if he's town and I'm scum, you're pretty much giving up the dethy, right?

Pinged weird to me. Why would you be concerned about a scenario where you're scum if you're town? Is someone being scummy in their choices to you here?

--PA

[Ghostly Penguin]

You guys are

such

killjoys.

Although, there are times I wonder why I'm even fucking trying considering 90% of the player list:

*Thinks we're scum BUT
*Is entirely too lazy and bought into the idea that Dethy will fix itself without lynches.

Maybe so I can look like fucking Cassandra when you do get the balls to lynch this slot.

MS stuff is dumb. Don't care how sure you are. Stop being bad.

This I agree with. As much as I think he's going to end up rightfully in a noose at some point, the dethy will have a much better idea of what possibilities remain once rofl claims and we have a second round of investigations to work with.


--PA

^Get that worked out

Actually those aren't mutually exclusive. Whoever the scum in the dethy is will most likely need to be lynched. But since we're now committed to getting cop results from the dethy members, as opposed to Day One where correctly lynching the scum would have made us a short-lived mason group, now we're trying to get relevant investigation results. We're not short on scummy players; why risk losing a cop or a potential confirmed town? I'm saying we don't need to lynch in the dethy today; Ghostlin is saying that while we will eventually figure out who scum is, getting rid of him will likely take a lynch.

So yeah, it's worked out, thanks for the concern!

I finy it very unlikely that me and Natarisha are scum together

I find it unlikely that I can be a scum in a mason group

I find it even more unlikely for these two to be combined together

the chance of me being scum is

square root(-1) =
i

...you're not in a mason group, you're in a neighborhood. There is scum in there, and as far as I can tell there's a significant chance it could be you. Why are you trying to defend yourself with patently false statements?

--PA

[Ghostly Penguin]

Amrun, sorry if it's anti-town to go into the details of this, but I seriously doubt that anything I say here is going to be a revelation to most anyone. And hinting as to why it's a bad plan isn't getting us anywhere except wasting time and generating more posts for people to read. Might as well try being direct.

Titus, at best we get a one-to-one town:scum tradeoff by enacting your plan if Nat is town, and that's dependent on Nat picking correctly (or Nat being scum). Which, if we really want to trust Nat that much, why not just agree to lynch whomever he says to lynch? Or since the shot would likely be influenced by general discussion, it sure would be nice if there was a mechanic in place to make a group decision...oh wait, that's LYNCHING. Plus if we enact that plan, it's a lynch that provides zero information for us, since if Nat is getting lynched just to activate the role, we don't even get bandwagon analysis out of it. If Nat is scum and takes your power, you're giving scum a free kill when we'd have to kill Nat to win anyways. If Nat is town and picks wrong, we lose two townies for no good reason.

I get that if you've disclosed everything about your role truthfully, it's frustrating to think that your bomb was apparently ineffective and your venge-kill is currently unlikely to be enacted. Two PR functions, little immediate payoff. But that doesn't mean we throw good money after bad.

Also, there might be a time when Nat's claimed brain eating ability is more useful if he's town. It's a universal back-up that doesn't have to take whatever role dies early on--just the WIFOM fodder that puts out there for scum alone is helpful.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm feeling a bit paranoid that the Chocolate Zombie could be a scum Vanillerizer who doesn't keep roles at all. The Chocolate-Vanilla thing is just too cute. Yeah, I really don't like this plan.

--PA

[Ghostly Penguin]

@GP, However, if Natirasha is town we sacrifice him to solve the deathy. That would get us a lot of information down the line. The scum would have no way of resisting us solving the deathy because they cannot resist a vengekill. That has always been the idea. If we solve the deathy, we uncover the copscum, discover a hell of a lot of notes and are perfectly positioned for the future.

If the deathy has resolved, killing Natirasha works and he just eliminates a scum.

If Natirasha is scum, he hardly has the information to steal a cop brain. We lynch Natirasha and we get a 1 v 1 trade which hurts scum in the long run.

No matter what happens in this plan, the town gets vital information.

This plan is bad for the following reasons:

1) It involves Nat telling the truth;
2) It involves Nat hitting scum when we lynch him or otherwise kill him;
3) It involves the Dethy to be solved, which is going to take at least an additional game Day to do;
4) Even if he shoots the Dethy from the 2-3 possibilities we got, if we hit the wrong member of the Dethy, you've got negative utility because you've killed off one Town confirmed power role, vanillaized a confirmed PR that's likely to be town, and killed at least another Town confirmed player.
5) OK, so Nat's telling the truth about his role thief ability but not his alignment; what's stopping him from putting a bullet in ROFL once he eats you?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Now that I've said all of that, there is absolutely jack-all we can do to stop you and Nat from implementing the plan except refuse to vote Nat once he has the Vengeful kill. Which we still won't necessarily do in case Nat's scum and we've been correct about Eddie's slot all along, but shit, this is a tangled way to try to game the system/break the game.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, RA is town and Syryana amuses me. I agree with him on Metal Sonic, and would be tempted to vote there except for the following reasons:

1) I'm annoyed at everyone in this game giving fuck-all to scum-hunting the dethy, but they're right that we can break it by doing the normal logic there. Or scum will start killing those of us they know aren't them.
2) Because of the reasoning inherent in 1; there is no way to get the fuck all of enough votes, even with the assistance of Romeo and Juliet.

Also, MS saying that the odds of him being scum are i (as in the computational square root of negative 1), means he's not figured out the difference between no odds and negative odds. Also, it's stupid to say because while the odds of him being scum to himself are 0% (except where he is scum, then it's 100%, but he has to portray that anyway); computationally, they're 20% even if you're lynching blind, and 25% considering the possible sanities MS can be from an outside perspective.

So yeah, he's crapping up the thread.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Shit. All of the above: -Ghostlin

[Ghostly Penguin]

You are the only Dethy hydra, so I'd expect 2x the opinions on each dethy player.

This line from PV is dumb. It also shows either acute misunderstanding about a hydra, or is trying to accuse of us not scumhunting because PA and I bother to have a unified front when we talk to you.

If you seriously expect us to occupy a unified slot with unified opinions and not sound like two people with one fucking vote then we have to agree at some point. That's like saying that Ffery, Syryana, PV and I should be posting four times as often with each of us having varying reads on every player in the game minus our slot.

WE FUCKING HAVE SYNCH SESSIONS FOR A REASON. DO YOU KNOW HOW FUCKING DUMB WE'D SOUND FOR OUR TWO SLOTS IF THAT WAS THE FUCKING CASE?

If you wouldn't lynch me out of annoyance, I'd lynch me out of annoyance. This isn't cognitive dissonance, it's crap logic that'd you'd find in a sewer. Yes, we might have different impressions, but fuck all if I'm going to tell you about them.

[Ghostly Penguin]

GP, we can also just lynch nat today and revel in the scumflip.

Yes, but I'm vacillating between these factors personally:

1) The horribleness of the slot when Eddie occupied it (strong lynch Nat feeling)
2) Ignoring the claim, the contributions that Nat's made (null to weak don't lynch Nat feeling)
3) The timing and powers that Nat has claimed; I feel a vanillaizer answers the wrong questions, such as the one AJ spent most of Day 1 asking instead of scum hunting---how do you stop a Dethy member from getting results? (weak lynch Nat feeling)
4) The fact that the claim itself is complete and Nat's not bothering to hide the gory details from us (weak don't lynch Nat feeling).

This has left me with a null/scum read on the slot; I'd rather lynch PV or AJ at this point; because I realize a part of this is paranoia.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, after a point, you're suggesting a partial PL to save Titus from his own bad ideas, and I'm not sure, even with the possible 'this could hurt Town' motives there, that's a good reason to lynch anyone. What's your case/feelings on Nat?

[Ghostly Penguin]

I do have Ghosty's ghosty-half as minorly sour as well

Is this 'because, meta', or another system of reads you just this second when you made this post made up?

[Ghostly Penguin]

Mod: I (the penguin_alien head) will be V/LA for hopefully only 36 hours dealing with a family crisis. If I need to extend it I'll update you. Thanks.

--PA

[Ghostly Penguin]

Town-Nat
1. claims ability stolen ("investigate one player....").
a. If ability is not cop, we caught and lynch scum.
b. If ability is cop, then the now-vanilla player is confirmed town. This means better chance of finding scum in the dethy now.

Scum-Nat
1. claims ability stolen.
a. if tells the truth, confirmed town (see b above)
b. Lies. We lynch now-vanilla town, who flips town. We lynch scum-Nat.

Why would scum Nat have claimed vanillaizer instead of anything else?

No idea why you would have used that ability within the dethy last night as scum. Would have just been blind guessing. Very suboptimal.

That is why I think scumNati wouldn't attack the deathy today. It's still suboptimal (unless ROFL is scum).

Such as?

Okay, let's do a little thought experiment, because you are being either exceptionally scummy or stupid today:

I am a scum Vanillaizer that can steal a role. I start the game knowing that there are 4 Cops, one of each sanity, playing a little side-game of Dethy, thanks to my scumbuddy in the group. We, as scum, now have this nifty tool that can fuck with them and cause chaos within their group.

Night 1 roles around. We decide, as a scum team, to shoot within the Dethy group because fuck cops (and we are aware of their plans to spread their investigations such that we can't use a tailor/traitor that we may or may not have to wreck them). What do I do?

I FUCKING STEAL ONE COP POWER AND HAVE MY SCUM TEAM KILL ANOTHER ONE TO GUARANTEE DENYING THE TOWN INSANELY USEFUL INFORMATION REGARDING THE RESOLUTION OF THE DETHY. I WOULD THEN BE ABLE TO FEED A SANITY TO MY SCUM PARTNER IN THE GROUP TO PUSH THE WHOLE "THIS VANILLAIZER THING IS A GAMBIT" IDEA. THAT IS WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WERE SCUM IN NAT'S POSITION, AND IT'S NOT EVEN A HARD CHOICE.

THEN ON DAY 2, EVEN UNDER PRESSURE I WOULDN'T CLAIM VANILLAIZER BECAUSE THE COP WOULD CLAIM THAT HE GOT VANILLAIZED. CONFIRMATION OF THAT ROLE ACTUALLY EXISTING WOULD RESOLVE THAT IT IS NOT A GAMBIT AND THE VANILLAIZER IS SCUM. I WOULD CLAIM SOMETHING – ANYTHING – ELSE.

[Ghostly Penguin]

*Sharpens some knives, with a dark grin.* Hi, bitches. The Ghostlin head has been left to his own devices. He's already fucked up the first attempt at this post. Let's get down to fucking business, shall we?

Town-Nat
1. claims ability stolen ("investigate one player....").
a. If ability is not cop, we caught and lynch scum.
b. If ability is cop, then the now-vanilla player is confirmed town. This means better chance of finding scum in the dethy now.

Scum-Nat
1. claims ability stolen.
a. if tells the truth, confirmed town (see b above)
b. Lies. We lynch now-vanilla town, who flips town. We lynch scum-Nat.

Why would scum Nat have claimed vanillaizer instead of anything else?

No idea why you would have used that ability within the dethy last night as scum. Would have just been blind guessing. Very suboptimal.

That is why I think scumNati wouldn't attack the deathy today. It's still suboptimal (unless ROFL is scum).

Such as?

Okay, let's do a little thought experiment, because you are being either exceptionally scummy or stupid today:

I am a scum Vanillaizer that can steal a role. I start the game knowing that there are 4 Cops, one of each sanity, playing a little side-game of Dethy, thanks to my scumbuddy in the group. We, as scum, now have this nifty tool that can fuck with them and cause chaos within their group.

Night 1 roles around. We decide, as a scum team, to shoot within the Dethy group because fuck cops (and we are aware of their plans to spread their investigations such that we can't use a tailor/traitor that we may or may not have to wreck them). What do I do?

I FUCKING STEAL ONE COP POWER AND HAVE MY SCUM TEAM KILL ANOTHER ONE TO GUARANTEE DENYING THE TOWN INSANELY USEFUL INFORMATION REGARDING THE RESOLUTION OF THE DETHY. I WOULD THEN BE ABLE TO FEED A SANITY TO MY SCUM PARTNER IN THE GROUP TO PUSH THE WHOLE "THIS VANILLAIZER THING IS A GAMBIT" IDEA. THAT IS WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WERE SCUM IN NAT'S POSITION, AND IT'S NOT EVEN A HARD CHOICE.

THEN ON DAY 2, EVEN UNDER PRESSURE I WOULDN'T CLAIM VANILLAIZER BECAUSE THE COP WOULD CLAIM THAT HE GOT VANILLAIZED. CONFIRMATION OF THAT ROLE ACTUALLY EXISTING WOULD RESOLVE THAT IT IS NOT A GAMBIT AND THE VANILLAIZER IS SCUM. I WOULD CLAIM SOMETHING – ANYTHING – ELSE.

2826 shows flawed thinking. Yes, scum generally do not want to start confirming anyone, even town, but if Nat did hand Town a confirmed Townie, the expression of that trick alone would not get Nat lynched. For days. And days. And perhaps ever.

Because scum doesn't ever confirm Townies, right?

I don't know about you kids, but when it comes to things like role information that could be easily sabotaged or counter-claimed, I tend to tell the truth as much as possible as scum. It means I don't have to remember a lie or fake results later. That is the correct question to BRO's first question, and possibly the only reason he'd do it.

2829, Titus: explain to me what ROFL being Town/Scum has to do with the Dethy being optimal? It's ROFL's -results- that matter. I don't think, even with that missing piece of the puzzle, it's still optimal for Nat to eat one of our brains.

BRO, there's only one problem with the thought experiment, and it's why Nat's role is still not necessarily Town: the WIFOM is maximized if you leave the Dethy group alone since Day 1 results are generally crap, and your odds of getting TWO cops for the price of one go up a huge factor if you just sit on it. Hell, there's a few less options than there were yesterday. There's no way the Cops are going to be able to catch all of you, even if they played incredibly optimally.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Blatant town blocs are problematic. My experience with them is that they will always have at least one scum in them, if not multiple. Sometimes, even, the person forming said town bloc. True town blocs flow organically, forming without effort. This is how my townblocs are formed as of the present day, because when I did it the way you do it, it didn't work. My current methodology has yet to fail me. It takes much longer for the townbloc to form, but when it does form, it is without the influence of scum players. But this is a matter of theory discussion, best left for MD or post-game. Regardless of town or scum, we both know the other holds this belief as either alignment, and thus, debating it further is utterly pointless. (Though my way is the correct way. )

Let me put this simply. This is the first post of yours in quite a while in which I can maybe see the town-you. I admit a lack of true familiarity with the scum-you; while I have encountered it, I am not intimately knowledgeable about it. But I am fairly well-exposed to your town self, and I cannot place words on it, but most of your posting simply has not seemed like it fit.

One part of this, I imagine, is how you seem to be using meta far less than you normally do, as Sonny quite rightly points out. The Rifty Drifty I am familiar with has a trajectory that is heavily-reliant on meta. Its absence is jarring, and this translates into reads. When using meta, your reads seem to have increased accuracy. (In fact, this is what helped reverse the Bazzy read.) You really haven't been using meta in your reads at all, and if you are town, I believe this has caused the distaste in my read, and I believe it has hurt your accuracy as well.

I just read this part of the post, and I realized two things:

1) The first two paragraphs have exactly NOTHING to do with your read on Rift Adrift and are a rather convoluted mess of an mafia theory argument that we've not been discussing since the early days of Day 1;
2) The second argument is actually semi-fair if you consider the scum motivation for RA to be laziness in not backing up their reads with as much meta as they normally do. The problem is, the thinking is completely incomplete. There's no push, or even reasoning why this would be vote worthy on RA. Hell, I filled in the blank for you. Your reasoning here seems insincere for a push on someone you think is scum.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Furthermore, roflcopter, the cop who knows more than anything else, is supporting an Ammy lynch. Players are ignoring the cop who knows the most about cop sanities, and thus, ignoring the player who knows how to best sort the Dethy out, and how to best maximize our chances of lynching scum. I cannot emphasize this enough; there is no better lynch for today than Amrun.

This isn't true. In fact, this part of the post is really why I think you're scum, because it's bullshit and you've been feeding similar things to Town all game.

ROFL has two pieces of information more than your average cop: who he investigated, and the guilty/innocent finding.

The first is only important if he investigated someone who's flip we know or are reasonably sure of (for example; Titus=guilty would probably nail his sanity down considering we're 90% sure of Titus's alignment). If he investigated, say, you, that information isn't useful now. It may be useful in the future, but now it's another piece of the puzzle going into Day 2.

The second is important, BUT we can guess alignments by taking both probabilities and figuring out what they mean.

Neither of these mean jack about the Amrun lynch UNLESS ROFL got a guilty on Amrun (and even then, not then, considering ROFL could easily be insane and BRO paranoid or vice versa). Also, ROFL having this secret information doesn't make him infallible. Aping a townread is one thing. Making an argument that Amrun must be scum because ROFL has more information than the rest of the dethy, hence he must have something is fucking quite another.

[Ghostly Penguin]

There's no push, or even reasoning why this would be vote worthy on RA. Hell, I filled in the blank for you. Your reasoning here seems insincere for a push on someone you think is scum.[/color]

This is quite intentional, I assure you. Part of the process of reaching out to a player is admitting you could be wrong about the scumread on said player. Thus, the reason this is insincere for a push on someone I think is scum is because it's

not

a push on someone I think is scum. It is a push on someone I

have

read as scum, but am reconsidering.

[dryly]Send me a memo when you decide someone you've been considering up scum up until now is Town and who you've replaced them with.[/dryly]

[Ghostly Penguin]

My choices for lynch: a light scumread versus a townread. Both heads of this slot would rather a Syrup Lady or a P^5 lynch. But we thank you for making this easy.

Vote: Nati

[Ghostly Penguin]

The utility is twofold

First, it saves an outed role that scum might want to kill if there's no protection.

Second it can retrieve abilities I assigned incorrectly but didn't know it at the time.

----------

On a side note, the scummy players seem split on he major wagons.

1) Most mods have the philosophy that if you're playing with a Town PR, out your role, no matter how important or critical it is to Town, that's really Town's problem to deal with. It's practically over-adjusting with one kill permitted a night. Most Towns don't need that protection, and I don't think the mod would of designed that role with that in mind, and a good majority of the time it's almost the EMT level of universal backups. There's a lot of reasons why scum wouldn't kill a PR that someone 'outed'; including WIFOM.

2) This game isn't about you. The mod probably didn't design Nat's role just to compliment yours.

However, the scum utility becomes this:

1) Vanillaize a Dethy member that has a good chance of being sane/insane without killing them.

2) Deny Town a PR that might be powerful in the hands of scum or useful in the hands of Town.

[Ghostly Penguin]

That AJ post was incredibly town.

Now are we lynching p5 or Amrun because this Nati lynch is bad.

HOW? HOW WAS WAFFLING THE ENTIRE FUCKING POST "INCREDIBLY TOWN"?

SHE ALSO DECLARED THAT SCUM WAS ON THE NAT WAGON, WHICH CONSIDERING UNTIL SLANDAAR JUMPED SHIP, IS LIKE DECLARING WATER FUCKING WET WHILE LOOKING TOWN.

[Ghostly Penguin]

And if you're going to eat anyone's brain, you should eat this hydra's brain. You'll learn more from us than Metal Sonic, considering a number of the folks have us the scum of the dethy, or at least second place scum.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I guess I'm not opposed to eating yours, but I dunno, I think MS is more likely to lead to critical success.

Well, you could do this one of three ways:

You can ignore my suggestion and eat MS's brain anyway;

Town consensus;

or you could flip a coin and tell us tomorrow which brain you ate.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I'd much rather the second or the third. My biggest problem right now if you eating MS's brain, is if you are scum, you are possibly in cahoots, can fake the brain being eaten, and then give us 'results.'

[Ghostly Penguin]

Syrup Lady's more afraid that if Nati eats our brain, she won't be able to post cognitive dissonant bullshit anymore. Which, Nati, hurry up, I wanna see he flail. Eat our brain.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Unless you're suggesting he would know how Natirasha's ability interacts with whatever scum roles you're suggesting could interfere with it, and he knows for sure that he eating his brain wouldn't identify him as scum, it seems rather ridiculous to assume he's scum for suggesting it.

Bluntly, I don't see the point in Nat eating Metal Sonic, and this isn't because I'm afraid Nat won't eat scum.

I'm more afraid that MS/Nat, in the chance they're a scum team, will fake a result of getting powers. This will confirm Sonic, and I'm more leery that he preemptively suggested Sonic.

Hence, why Nat should eat me. If Nat is scum, then he has two choices: confirm us or lie about it. If Nat confirms us, then scum gets a brand new confirmed Townie in the game. If Nat lies, and you lynch me and when we flip Town, then you know where scum is.

Consider this: if AJ really believes that Nat has the powers he's saying and doesn't believe we're a scum team (which is hard to ascertain because of the waffle, but it'd be the first time I heard of it) then why is she so afraid of confirming we're scum or not?

Because if we're confirmed, that's one less lynch she can push.

[Ghostly Penguin]

you're selling yourself short, you provided insightful analysis. i'm especially fond of your pointing out the people who abandoned the zoid wagon's first incarnation, and the people who seem to stick themselves to any and all wagons not named amrun today

Buddy a bit harder, ROFL. I don't think we buy that you really really like AJ enough yet.

[Ghostly Penguin]

ghost your scum play is so different from your town play

*Snicker, and then full blown laughter* Oh, Metal Sonic. You actually do fucking amuse me.

You've not seen my scum game yet, cupcake; but at least two people in this game have and they can fucking tell you this ain't it. You are fucking right on one particular: I've been told I'm really pathetically easy to catch as scum.

[Ghostly Penguin]

@ghost,

I don't think it's so much that she's afraid of Nat eating your brain. But she seems to think that you suggesting it is scummy for reasons that don't make a lot of sense.

Look. She's either functioning from extreme confirmation bias or she's scum. Because seriously? If my highest scum read IN THE GAME went 'hey, here's a way you can confirm my alignment and not worry about if I'll be influencing town again, and do something that scum really wouldn't want to have happen', yes, I'd be reluctant, but I'd be at least a little bit fucking tempted to take it.

She's spinning this as if I have somehow, out of the blue, with no day-talk (remember, Zoidberg was that enabler) set up a momentary gambit with Nat. Or that I'm gambitting independently of Nat to...hurt my win condition as scum more?

I've said I'm easy to catch as scum, but I'm not criminally fucking stupid.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Rift Adrift is Town, in my eyes. It is an entirely plausible shot. I need to discuss with pa, do some realignment and discuss the nights events. Rofl did not reveal his target in the booth QT that I could tell.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I can't believe you two would do something so monumentally stupid >:C

Jesus Christ, you're acting like AJ was the most townie thing that ever towned and not fucking lylo/lynch bait.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I can confirm that rofl did not confirm his target.

But I can confirm that rofl got an innocent, and that one of {Stubbs, Titus, rofl's target} is scum.

Knowing rofl's target would help. Gonna check to see if he crumbed it anywhere.

Oh yeah condorcet vote for reveal order:

MS
GP
Slandaar
Myself

Yeah, about that...like I said in the dethy QT, I'm not revealing our result in thread. Ghostlin might. Good luck with that.

--PA

[Ghostly Penguin]

Well GP wants to be a prick and not claim so....

pedit: How do you know those came from the same person, and how do you know the neighborizor is town?

Tell you what, cupcake, I will tell you the result but not the person UNLESS another person has an investigation on that same person for sync purposes. That's only because you're 90% confirmed Town and I like you.

[Ghostly Penguin]

GP - Gives reads lists and asks questions. AJ had some sort of meta on him, which I still don't understand, but that was her main reason for thinking he's scum. Recently though, he has seemed like he's been rolefishing and asking the wrong questions:

In post 2104, Ghostly Penguin wrote:
Titus, that weird ability of yours you just claimed, is it one-shot?


And of course, there's the investigation of a dead person that has been brought up against him but I think that is not really points against him. This would be my second choice for scum in the dethy.

Wait. No. Considering the use of the power, you can't say we're role-fishing with designs to off TD (which isn't said, but implied) and then say the fact we investigated dead TD isn't revelant.

Also, AJ flipped, and I'm still fucking recovering from saying this aloud, Town, not Jesus. I'm not saying her reads are 100% crap, but I can guarantee she fucked up at least 2.

[Ghostly Penguin]

RA, how many vig shots do you have?

....And you accuse me of fucking rolefishing. Don't answer this fucking question.

[Ghostly Penguin]

rift adrift and ghostly are scum together with amrun and zmuffin

falalala la la la la

If rofl did get an innocent result, wouldn't be surprised if it was on Amrun or zmuffin...

I'm essentially claiming neighbor with Rift Adrift at this point. I don't see the reason to keep the neighbor secret at this point, especially because I'm one shot and Rift already claimed.

The only way he'd vote Amrun with an inno is if he believed he was insane or naive. Since if BRO was the only guily, he'd be paranoid, right?

[Ghostly Penguin]

We received another innocent last night.

[Ghostly Penguin]

Also, just because I refuse to ignore the PV scumfuckery any longer:

Vote: PV

[Ghostly Penguin]

Yeah, I can confirm that rofl did not confirm his target.

But I can confirm that rofl got an innocent, and that one of {Stubbs, Titus, rofl's target} is scum.

Knowing rofl's target would help. Gonna check to see if he crumbed it anywhere.

Oh yeah condorcet vote for reveal order:

MS
GP
Slandaar
Myself

So did rofl name his n1 target and result?



And I assume he didn't give his n2 target.

3052

The incredibly jawdropping thing is that the post where you ask this question and the post I just linked you to ARE ON THE SAME FUCKING PAGE. This is faking activity.