Red Wine Mafia: Game Over

[Pjovek]

Скажите, что сталось со мной?
Что сердце так жарко забилось?
Какое безумье волной
Сквозь камень привычки пробилось?

В нем сила иль мука моя,
В волненьи не чувствую сразу:
С мерцающих строк бытия
Ловлю я забытую фразу...

Фонарь свой не водит ли тать
По скопищу литер унылых?
Мне фразы нельзя не читать.
Но к ней я вернуться не в силах...

Не вспыхнуть ей было невмочь,
Но мрак она только тревожит:
Так бабочка газа всю ночь
Дрожит, а сорваться не может...

[Pjovek]

butterfly gas, lol

sounds real gay

not that there's anything wrong with being homosexual.
Unless you're in Mother Russia, then it is wrong.
But I digress.

[Pjovek]

would lynch Кабд for that

Can't blame фферйллт for caving into the pity bait, she's female and thus unable to control her urges.

[Pjovek]

Why are you asking me, I don't make the rules

[Pjovek]

No, I can tell it's not a PM to him because I can read it quite openly.

Your tricks won't work on me

[Pjovek]

would lynch Кабд for that

Can't blame фферйллт for caving into the pity bait, she's female and thus unable to control her urges.

What pity bait is that?

The "boo hoo I'm so bad at this game" kind.

[Pjovek]

Just lynch him with me. hes trolling the game, speaking in other languages and being misogynistic.

Do you think he's scum?

If he did, he'd have said so, wouldn't he?

He's trying to policy lynch me.
For some reason, people tend to threaten me with that often. Can't imagine why.
It's k tho, I know it'll never happen. Even he does not really want it. His mind tells him he should want it, but his heart is not in it.

[Pjovek]

Jokes are as foreign a concept to me as sarcasm is.
Or as foreign to me as black people.

Can't decide between the two analogies, feedback on which is preferred will be appreciated.

[Pjovek]

Jokes are as foreign a concept to me as sarcasm is.
Or as foreign to me as black people.

Can't decide between the two analogies, feedback on which is preferred will be appreciated.

Are you working from a list?

I'm not sure what that means.

Maybe it means the list of people playing this game provided in the OP, if so I did read it. Indeed, indeed.

Or you mean my actual work, in which lists are mostly absent, and when they are not they are not terribly relevant.

I've determined the correct answer to this to be: "Maybe"
Maybe I'll even look at you mysteriously, that is optional.

[Pjovek]

Jokes are as foreign a concept to me as sarcasm is.
Or as foreign to me as black people.

Can't decide between the two analogies, feedback on which is preferred will be appreciated.

Are you working from a list?

I'm not sure what that means.

Maybe it means the list of people playing this game provided in the OP, if so I did read it. Indeed, indeed.

Or you mean my actual work, in which lists are mostly absent, and when they are not they are not terribly relevant.

I've determined the correct answer to this to be: "Maybe"
Maybe I'll even look at you mysteriously, that is optional.

sexual orientation, gender, race. I figured abledness or religion might be next.

Ah yes, not a formal, physical list per se, but as in all matters of life, it pays to be through.

I would not dream saying anything less than postitive about religion though. My parents raised me well.

[Pjovek]

No

[Pjovek]

Ok, let me try this way.

Chamber do you think Pjo is scum? If not, why are you demanding his lynch when it is entirely possible to ignore someone and actually scumhunt?

I don't think he's town, and that's enough.

He may be easiest to ignore right now, but its also when it costs the least to remove him. As the game progresses he'll be equally unreadable and increasingly disruptive as he makes up a larger percentage of the living. He'll never be killed as either alignment, because scum have no motivation to kill themselves or damaging elements.


Last 3 pages.

You are describing persons that could be perfectly fine vig shots - that does not make them good lynches.

Not that I am such a person.
Except to you because you expect me to be, that's purely psychological.

So I am resigned to you being this dull for the whole game, that is fine. Your decision.

It's k tho, I know it'll never happen. Even he does not really want it. His mind tells him he should want it, but his heart is not in it.

Pjovek, do you happen to know Chamber's alignment? It's okay, it not too late to confess.

Not in the way you mean it.
I am however perfectly capable of reading people and reaching conclusions.

[Pjovek]

Disagreed.

His explanations apply too different of standards to players.
In the way of looking very much to be chosen at random.
Giving a townread to one and a scumread to the other for the same thing, suggests a serious lack of genuine thought, meaning it could very well all be fake.

[Pjovek]

Unvote, vote Pjovek

I had a habit of posting weird lyrics in my first post as scum, nobody ever caught me on it. It was like a serial killer's ritual.

Easily the most scummy post in this game

vote Alberto Bono Rompage

Selfmeta(1) on something completely meaningless(2), plus some fearmongering(3) on top because why not and to top it off, a shittily justified(4) jump on an easy wagon(5)

Wow 5 scum. So amaze.

[Pjovek]

Unvote, vote Pjovek

I had a habit of posting weird lyrics in my first post as scum, nobody ever caught me on it. It was like a serial killer's ritual.

Easily the most scummy post in this game

vote Alberto Bono Rompage

Selfmeta(1) on something completely meaningless(2), plus some fearmongering(3) on top because why not and to top it off, a shittily justified(4) jump on an easy wagon(5)

Wow 5 scum. So amaze.

It's totally true and provable. This is a legit vote.

So what if it's true concerning yourself.
You'll note that I never even expressed doubt in that, because it simply does not matter, and I was not talking about that at all.

My point is that it means squat fuckall in regards to my alignment, and you have not shown how it would at all.
I get it, it's hard to prove something that's completely wrong, but you're not even trying. This resignation means you already know the conclusion, but would still like to go there regardless.

[Pjovek]

About to head out to lunch and then more job searching / work but a couple of things I forgot:

Espeonage makes a rather poor choice for an early day wagon.

Why?

And especially I don't like that he puts me in possible scum, that always makes me suspicious.

Why does putting you in possible scum always make you suspicious?

When I roll town and someone reads me as scum it is either because they misread me or because they are scum. If they misread me it means that I am playing bad or they are playing bad or some combination where both of us are playing bad'ish. So it is quite possible he have misread me, but it is also possible that he is scum making up reads. Reading me as scum makes you appear on my radar, it makes me question your motives.

So you feel that your style of play as town is so "mainstream" for want of a better adjective that you should be easy to read? How does data from games you've played match this expectation?

My playstyle as townie is pretty straightforward and open. I think the way I play as town is the optimal one (obviously, if I didn't I would change it). I hate players who dumb down their townplay just so that they can have an easier game as scum. I am fairly good at catching scum, and I am very often voting (final vote) for scum (I would say 50% of the times, even though that sounds a bit much) in the earlier rounds. Feel free to hold me to this, if I keep missing I should get lycnhed (I will protest it though, but I can't refute the arguement).

In my 8 games on TeamLiquid I have as town:
• Survived to the end one time, winning with town.
• Been nightkilled night 1 by scum two games.
• Been nightkilled by scum lategame after claiming vet (steacked)
• Been lynched in late game after throwing a hissyfit on a player who almost voted with me, but kept insulting me. I told him to fuck off and vote me, I don’t cater to morons.
• Lynched day two when two of the most respected players of the site rolled scum and pulled all their influence in on getting me lynched. I also played a shit shit game and deserved it.

As scum:
• One game nightkilled night 1. Was playing poorly, but might have survived a while, but one of the good townplayers of the site read me easily.
• One game nightkilled night 2. Would 100% have gotten lynched on day 3 if I didn’t get viged.

In my opinion my townplay is far better than my scumplay, because I play such an open game, and have trouble imitating that as scum. IMO you can only be considered a great scumplayer if you are a great townplayer, if you are a shit townplayer then imitating your meta is easy.

I cannot find a player of the name Silver Bard on these TeamLiquid forums.

What is your handle there, dear?

[Pjovek]

Unvote, vote Pjovek

I had a habit of posting weird lyrics in my first post as scum, nobody ever caught me on it. It was like a serial killer's ritual.

Easily the most scummy post in this game

vote Alberto Bono Rompage

Selfmeta(1) on something completely meaningless(2), plus some fearmongering(3) on top because why not and to top it off, a shittily justified(4) jump on an easy wagon(5)

Wow 5 scum. So amaze.

It's totally true and provable. This is a legit vote.

So what if it's true concerning yourself.
You'll note that I never even expressed doubt in that, because it simply does not matter, and I was not talking about that at all.

My point is that it means squat fuckall in regards to my alignment, and you have not shown how it would at all.
I get it, it's hard to prove something that's completely wrong, but you're not even trying. This resignation means you already know the conclusion, but would still like to go there regardless.

I'm feeling a little skittish after our last encounter, but this line of argument in your interaction with ABR rings of town.

That's to be expected.

I find that people want to lynch me 73% more if they have recently witnessed my marvellous and sexually very attractive scumplay.

[Pjovek]

I went for a different name here for a reason. So that will stay a secret Read what you want into that

Well then it is quite pointless to quote your record over there.

[Pjovek]

For anybody that actually uses meta, Silver Bard is "Tunkeg" on TeamLiquid mafia.

God bless extensive databases.

[Pjovek]

Also, Pjo, i expect some lil' dashes for ffery's sake.

I'm not planning on not-really-fake-claiming flavor cop in this game, though.

I'd have a hard time too, considering the amount of flavor.

[Pjovek]

I've seen Pjovek scum. This isn't it.

How would you describe Pjovek's scum play?

swag as fuck

[Pjovek]

Yes, I indeed played differently in those games.

I always do.

Which is part of why looking at my meta won't do you that much good.
Actually meta should be used very sparingly overall, not only regarding myself, but that is a different beast.

[Pjovek]

Also in PYP I didn't even try at all because of a rule misunderstanding that led me to believe I'd win no matter what (which turned out to not be the case)

I wouldn't play this leniently again.

[Pjovek]

Yes, that holds true for everybody ever.

[Pjovek]

Katsuki replaces the silver bard. Thanks katsuki!

It's almost like someone being a dick and outing his tl main made this guy replace out.

Yes it's really quite amusing.

It's not like it was hard to find out with the amount of information he gave.

People....

[Pjovek]

I don't get why alberto bono is the wagon that's "insubstantial"

If anything, that's the wagon on me.

I have provided very good substance for the bono wagon, more and better than anything anybody else in this game has. As such I'm only mildly surprised it's actually a thing (for some unfathomable reason people are sometimes averse to listening to me, can't imagine why).

His inability to address it doesn't help his case I'm sure.

I'm more curious as to why other people choose not to comment on it, also not when they're on it, but that is fairly obvious so it's fine, but mainly those that refuse to jump on.

Like you too, you are not giving an opinion on it, you're just making a shallow observation about it. That doesn't help anybody, lest of all yourself.

[Pjovek]

I don't get why alberto bono is the wagon that's "insubstantial"

If anything, that's the wagon on me.

I have provided very good substance for the bono wagon, more and better than anything anybody else in this game has. As such I'm only mildly surprised it's actually a thing (for some unfathomable reason people are sometimes averse to listening to me, can't imagine why).

His inability to address it doesn't help his case I'm sure.

I'm more curious as to why other people choose not to comment on it, also not when they're on it, but that is fairly obvious so it's fine, but mainly those that refuse to jump on.

Like you too, you are not giving an opinion on it, you're just making a shallow observation about it. That doesn't help anybody, lest of all yourself.

The OMGUS is strong in this one.

Not at all.

There are multiple people I'm currently fine with that are voting me.

But I suppose you need to discredit me in some way.

[Pjovek]

For some reason, it doesn't quite look that way.

[Pjovek]

The horrible feeling of wanting to argue against a townread on yourself but not actually wanting to argue against a townread on yourself.

[Pjovek]

No one is going to Deep Read a game just because you link it as a reference

Hi.

Hi, I don't believe that you deep read the game to my standards. Even if you did, 'No' was clearly hyperbole, I said it was a very high bar before that, not an impossibly high one.

Yes you must be having really high standards, considering the amount of reading you are doing in this game.

[Pjovek]

I am playing seriously.
I have explained who I want lynched at great detail, nobody else in this game has even bothered to do so (at least not with reasons that are actually alignment indicative).
I have contributed a lot more than anybody else.

I'd love to discuss and converse with people normally, I really would.
But there is legitimately nothing else I can talk about because everyone in this game is lazy.


But good news! You, yes that is you reader of this post! YOU can do somthing about this!
It's easy!
You just have to play the game you signed up for!

"But Brovek", you might say, "actually playing is for scrubs I'm wayy too good for that"
And if you said that, my response would be along the lines of: "Go choke to death on a exquisitely large piece of male human genitalia"

Trve stroy

[Pjovek]

If you want we can discuss my piece of male human genitalia at length.
"Length" being the perogative term, hoho.

[Pjovek]

Alignment and quality of play are two entirely different things.

Somebody decides to be a waste of life, I merely point it out.
That has no bearing on what I think anybody's alignment is.

Additionally, I'm sure that it's abundantly obvious why it's preferrable to one that one's townreads are actually doing god's work instead of, well, fornicating.
If not, I do not mind explaining basic logic to people. If more people understood basic logic, mafia would be far more enjoyable.


Also if people like our beloved chamberpot keep being good for nothing else than being a chamberpot, I'll have to revise my townread anyways.
Acting angry and not doing anything else for weeks would be rather stale. Not to mention obviously fake.

[Pjovek]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

Yes that is the case, though I'd expect scum to hide it better.

Not really too conclusive it honestly depends on how bad she is at this game/scum.

[Pjovek]

Oh, I think projectmatt's Town too.

The ABR wagon is uninspired. Actually, all the top wagons are bad.

Feel free to inspire me.

[Pjovek]

I will, but if I'm going to you need to be open to change, as opposed to tunnelling on your former scumread anyway.

Quote me the case you made already.

I'm the most open-minded guy in the world.

My mind is as open as a lady's legs when she sees my sex appeal.

[Pjovek]

It doesn't matter if I vote him or not.

First of, because pressure is not exactly the same as "votes just for the sake of it without real intent" because it's just that obvious nothing will ever come of it.
And secondly, because he hasn't posted in 3 days which means he's gonna be due for some hot replacement action so even if you disagree with my first assessment, it doesn't matter anyways since mindy only posted garbage fluff which means I'll have to read into the replacement anyways. And the replacement would obviously also know this.

[Pjovek]

plus he might be the batman

you never know

[Pjovek]

What do you propose then?

Nothing, I'm saying, due to your direct engagement of myself on this matter, that I consider what you're trying to do a waste of time.

[Pjovek]

tbh we should probably policy lynch chamber right about now.
The irony would also be hilarious.

meh tho


The general lack in this game suggests somthing particular, but it's not the time to say what it is...
So boring.

[Pjovek]

I've literally never seen an overenthusiastic scum

I don't think that's even possible

[Pjovek]

I don't consider not liking RVS to be alignment indicative (I am aware I might be biased since I find it dumb myself)

I also don't consider meta of completely different players to be a compelling argument at all.

That said...

What I am interested about is why you've asked a loaded question about 'missing' early votes if you don't like RVS anyways.
I'd figure you should be happy that they're smart enough to not do it.

[Pjovek]

@Pjo: Because it's a random vote. I'd rather start discussion on a discrepancy from the norm over voting over nothing.
@Project: I'm interested in an articulation of your Tammy read.

Insufficient response, still smells like fish.

unvote
Vote: DrCirno

[Pjovek]

If with "support" you mean "finally replace him", then I hope we do.

[Pjovek]

God bless good Sir

[Pjovek]

Why not?

[Pjovek]

Oh I see your previous post.

Now I know why you'd be against it.

I guess it would be weird to lynch people for what you're doing yourself, gotcha.

[Pjovek]

I have a townread on projectmatt

fite me IRL

[Pjovek]

Yeah lucky us now he'll do nothing for 5 more days, yay.

[Pjovek]

chamber is actually legit mafia

unvote
vote chamber

He's planning on acting like an useless emo all game anyways so even if you disagreed for some reason you should still lynch him so it's fine.

[Pjovek]

chamber is actually legit mafia

unvote
vote chamber

He's planning on acting like an useless emo all game anyways so even if you disagreed for some reason you should still lynch him so it's fine.

I'd much rather eliminate the potential obstruction to his thinking clearly.

What indication is there that he ever plans to think?

None.

My "being in this game" is an obvious excuse for his lazyness.
I bet you he didn't even read my posts before deciding that.


I am curious how you come to a different solution. Show me the town motivation.

[Pjovek]

chamber is actually legit mafia

unvote
vote chamber

He's planning on acting like an useless emo all game anyways so even if you disagreed for some reason you should still lynch him so it's fine.

Do you think he's scum?

I said so in the exact post you quoted, I'd say chances are yes is the correct answer to your question.

Do you not read?

[Pjovek]

Wrong. Two more tries.

No reason to try. If that's not it, it's something in a personal blind space and I won't see it from my own vantage point.

Can you guys post even one line about somebody that's not the other person of you two?

[Pjovek]

It's good to have things going on in parallel.
Tammy-Empire ought to bring good things, and ffery-cabd also seems to be leading to good things.

If you're feeling left out, you could keep attacking Chamber-town for a while until we lynch you for it?

Something might have come out of it 10 pages ago but now they're just repeating the same meta shit over and over without ever saying anything so it's just clutter by now

[Pjovek]

The above post makes me want to switch to Albert very, very badly. I have little motivation for this game right now.

[Pjovek]

I probably will.

[Pjovek]

Not that I did but it wouldn't be and even if I did what you could reduce to such it would be wrong to suggest these reasons

3 is just to early, I'd prefer the 4-5th slot right now.

[Pjovek]

10/10 would lynch katsuki over TSO

[Pjovek]

But he does more than just lurk until he's getting called out and then only appearing to defend himself in the worst way possible.

[Pjovek]

Unvote
Vote: Alberto Bono Rampage

Doesn't even town

[Pjovek]

Getting serious deja vu's about this espeonage argument atm.
Same thing already happened only with the RVS stuff.

Deciding what it means is a headache since there's too many options, so I'll just ignore it.

[Pjovek]

They only thing you've done "more" than that is OMGUS TSO..

[Pjovek]

Well, considering this is coming from a person too inept to even log in with the correct account, I'm not sure how seriously I'll take your suggestion.

But i digress.

[Pjovek]

I won't be around much during the weekend but I won't miss much anyways.

[Pjovek]

Disagreed.

His explanations apply too different of standards to players.
In the way of looking very much to be chosen at random.
Giving a townread to one and a scumread to the other for the same thing, suggests a serious lack of genuine thought, meaning it could very well all be fake.

Why can't more of your posts be like this?

Unvote, vote Pjovek

I had a habit of posting weird lyrics in my first post as scum, nobody ever caught me on it. It was like a serial killer's ritual.

Easily the most scummy post in this game

vote Alberto Bono Rompage

Selfmeta(1) on something completely meaningless(2), plus some fearmongering(3) on top because why not and to top it off, a shittily justified(4) jump on an easy wagon(5)

Wow 5 scum. So amaze.

Hmmm....earlier in the game I voted ABR for overexplaining a vote. I think I was sleepwalking or something because I think I voted the wrong person. This is overexplaining a vote.

More of my posts should overexplain things for the slow people, but I shouldn't overexplain.

I imagine that since you don't know what you want, you're never going to be happy with my posts. Which is fine. Just stop pretending the problem is on my end.

Catching up to the rest of the thread today-ish.

[Pjovek]

Alright I still think the Albert lynch is the best lynch today, so I'll keep my vote there.

I have however decided to be ready to consolidate on Espeonage if needed - but, seeing as I can still do best lynch today reasonably realistically, I'll stay on that with a feeling of content.

[Pjovek]

You should join mine.
We only have incredible beacons of towniness on it such as katsuki, bbmolla, cephrir, especiallythelies or myself

It really can not possibly go wrong.

[Pjovek]

I was 47% sarcastic.

[Pjovek]

Do you really think a guy who has wrote multiple articles could actually be this bad as scum?

Yes, definetly.

Pjovek has also done nothing for the last idk even pages.

I'm happy with the wagon I'm on and nothing too relevant [to today's lynch] happened in the last idk even pages.

Which is cool to me, since I was gone the whole weekend.

[Pjovek]

My IQ may only be this high once in November. Caffeine is a powerful drug and must be maximized.
I will VOTE: ABR though. This is the chosen wagon of the townblock.

VOTE: ABR

Probably the lynch for today. Espy at least has some town pings.

These two votes are coming out of nowhere, from players who have not indicated any prior suspicion of me. It feels as though you two put as much effort into those votes as I did this entire game. "ABR is the lynch the town has chosen" what kind of logic is that?

It sounds more like what Natirasha said, ABR is the scum-approved mislynch of the day. Not that Natirasha has to be town in order to say that.

Then Pjovek votes me, which is just incomprehensible. I don't think Pjovek is scum so this vote baffles me.

If we could turn our attention somewhere else while I stand back, collect evidence, and win the endgame for the town, that'd be great. Thanks.

Well considering I've explained why I think you're scum early into the game, and you have done literally zero in the month between then and now, I'm not sure why you're acting surprised.


If you could actually look for scum, we can talk again about you putting chamber levels of effort into this game.

After

you've lynched 3 or so of them.
A great compromise, eh?

[Pjovek]

Ffery, no offense, but you really like to zero in on stuff that paints an obscure picture that is hard to follow. You bang hard on that little shit, that to me, really doesn't mean anything. That's what I feel about the first quote. I feel it is a nothing issue.

Tone, timing and behavioral patterns are what I key in on, often as not. espeonage pinged early and then started to look more generically town. But, the example of his town play in an earlier game is something quite different from what I'm seeing here. And his posts yesterday, which came as his wagon started to pick up steam again, have a spaghetti-thrown-at-wall feel. They're full of vague accusations and innuendo, which is such a contrast to the game that projectmatt linked.

There, he addressed suspects directly and asked them questions, made observations to them.

Here, he's to a large extent picking up posts by other players to agree with and to add a little non-specific weight to. He's talking about the people he's accusing, not to them.

Go back through the posts I linked and see how many questions he asked, and how many direct accusations he's made.

You should consider not using meta.
It will set you free from your curse.

Unrelated to the specific content of your post.

[Pjovek]

As for the specific content, talking about the people he's accusing instead of to them is actually way smarter of you want to lynch somebody.

You're never going to convince somebody that they're scum, you can convince other people that the accusee is scum.
Sounds easy right? Well it is.

I would normally do it too but it's funner to argue with people.

[Pjovek]

Look if I wanted to I could point you to just as many hypocrisies and illogical BS in ABR's iso as you're all dragging up from espeonage, but I don't really see how that'd be even necessary.

In the end the fact that he activity-dodges continously with pure survival votes (no scumreads to this day) should easily be enough to lynch him.

And the only "argument" against it I've ever seen is that "he wouldn't play this bad as scum" which is the stupidest thing I've read since chamber first started posting. The fact that nobody is able to conjure up a real townread is telling in itself.

So the most simple conclusion is that ABR is scum, Espeonage is town, and scum are trying to shift the lynch onto town last minute.
And honestly, in the unlikely scenario I'm wrong and they are both town, I'd have a lnyched ABR over a lynched espeonage any day any week.

tl;dr: just lynch ABR

[Pjovek]

In case we are both town, you lynch who you think is scum, Pjovek. Which means some other than us two.

BBMolla, I've been suspicious of the slot since mindgamer.

Unvote Espeonage, vote BBmolla

You are who I think is scum, which I believe to have made apparant sufficiently.

[Pjovek]

Do you believe yourself to be a decent player?

[Pjovek]

You are who I think is scum, which I believe to have made apparant sufficiently.

Because you think that I'm lying about not having strong reads, right?

But what if it was true?

Doesn't that explain every single behavior you think is suspicious?

As for that, no, absolutely not.

[Pjovek]

Do you believe yourself to be a decent player?

Not in this game.

You are who I think is scum, which I believe to have made apparant sufficiently.

Because you think that I'm lying about not having strong reads, right?

But what if it was true?

Doesn't that explain every single behavior you think is suspicious?

As for that, no, absolutely not.

List off what behaviors you find suspicious, that cannot be explained by me not having strong reads or a lack commitment towards the game.

1) You say you don't have reads and then the only justification for your latest vote was that you had actually scumread him all along!
1.5) Said "scumread" was never even remotely explained
2) So you already gotta be lying somewhere in there
3) "Lack of commitment" is a mild way to put it and it's not even the lying part so it counts joke's on you
4) You act condenscending f.e. when you think you're my only scumread (which was not true but I digress), but then you act like there's nothing at all wrong with you not having any scumreads at all, having done no looking-for-scum at all either.
5) You're not even looking for scum
6) You're blatantly dodging replacements while not playing the game

Honestly I could leave it at just 5), it's by and far the most telling.
Apparantly you are aware your play is a hot pile of garbage. So that leads my to ponder why you do it despite being aware of it.
The only real conclusion is that you are fine with not finding scum, which then in turn leaves only one conclusion about your alignment.
It's quite simple.

And since your only response ever is and was "No" (and that's it), I remain unconvinced of your innocence.

[Pjovek]

I would agree that llamarble's change in opinion from his listpost just a day prior has not been sufficiently explained.

Not only in regards to espeonage but also about cephirir.

I do not, however believe this to be telling about espeonage one way or the other.

[Pjovek]

No it's not.

If your townplay was ever 7/10 at all, you would know how to deal with it. But empirical evidence from this game suggests it never was anyways.

[Pjovek]

Because I'm behind and skimming and bbmollas post caught my attention. Its entirely possible I simply never read yours. With that said, yours doesn't seem as bad anyway. The wording is more natural, and you are happy with where your vote is, all of which are key differences. BBmolla had just unvoted. The 'SIGH' made it feel very forced, and him saying his reads are shit gives him an excuse to spontaneously change them when he decides who he wants to vote next (if scum).

That's completely counter productive, especially in the position I'm in. If I were scum, I'd be pushing a "strong scumread" by now so that I looked better.

I'm sorry that scum-you looks like genuine-town-me, nothin I can do about that.

If Esp is town, 75% certain Ceph is scum. This post is the type of framing case I'd be doing now as scum.

Example, see:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4868462

I'd think that you'd understand that using self-meta on other players doesn't work by the context of the first post, but here we are, and here you go.

[Pjovek]

I'd think that you'd understand that using self-meta on other players doesn't work by the context of the first post, but here we are, and here you go.

Provide me examples of players doing that sort of framing as town and I'll concede to that.

Alberto earlier this game.

useewhatididthere

[Pjovek]

Wait a minute that's not even what you said.

I have no fucking idea what you've been trying to say. Unless you are calling yourself scum, which is fine by me, but say it properly or it just confuses me.

[Pjovek]

It's possible he completely misunderstood my post in the first place, true.
I'm sorry for assuming he actually answered my post instead of quoting it for shit and giggles.

[Pjovek]

No habla hombre.

It's a dumb line of questioning.
You're basically making a meta argument on somebody else based on your own meta. Now if you want it to actually be worth the space it's written on, you have to show where HE does it as scum.
I don't give a shit how often you do it, because you are, if you didn't notice, a different person.

[Pjovek]

Tammy was awesome. She had really good opinions about stuff.

How can you tell having no reads and opinions yourself?

Honest question.

Pjovek, just let me go for today man. Come back tomorrow and vote for me. Just, for today, let's try to focus somewhere else. If you're town, I need your advice on catching the scum to fulfill my win condition. So come vote for me tomorrow, but for today, I can't decide who is scum, and I need you to do me a favor and help me choose my vote.

Why?
I imagine it's about equally bad for you(r faction) if you get lynched tomorrow, so I don't see how that improves things at all, and I am not going to purposely vote off a lesser read just so you can be useless even longer.
Not saying I wouldn't consolidate on okay lynches too, but as of yet I don't see the need for it.

[Pjovek]

I'll respect your opinion as a certified expert on the subject.

[Pjovek]

Dunno man, I see townies make cases all the time.

[Pjovek]

I like the vote.

[Pjovek]

P-edit: Cases and "This action this player did could be seen as scummy in this way" are different.

As for that, still sounds like the same thing to me.

Cases are "I think this guy is scum and here is why bla bla bla", sometimes "bla bla bla, oh hey this guy is scum lookit that"

Including words such as "could" or terms such as "if you look at it that way" don't make the content different, it just means that the cases are poorly written because "I'm not sure if this guy is scum but let's just lynch him" makes it to be far down on the Sheeple Scale, but if you just go all "I'm super sure this guy is scum omgwtf 100% ez ez ez" it's still obnoxious, but at least it lands on top of the Sheeple Scale.


If you actually have problems with the content, then you are free to note them, but I didn't really feel that, to me it looks like your problem lies purely within the syntax.
Which I consider silly.

's all.

[Pjovek]

There's not a lot of people you could have picked that I don't wanna dunk, but you seem to have found one.

Protip: If you call the wagon you're trying to start a mistake before it can even start up, chances are it's not going to start up.

[Pjovek]

Will be busy all weekend again, so pretty much guaranteed to not be here to consolidate/flashwagon.

gl bbygrls

[Pjovek]

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

get rekt

[Pjovek]

hamma as fuck

[Pjovek]

Hm, that simplifies things.

The other scum on the lynch was probably Guyett, with 2 (assuming the game is balanced) being off it.
Will look into it + maybe even ceph's iso tomorrow.


Espeonage, what about your night action?

[Pjovek]

...You already claimed.

[Pjovek]

I don't see a downside to it.
It confirms claims all the same because scum can't fakeclaim into it later without being instantly counterclaimed.

As I understand the role, you wouldn't get the actual roles anyways, just what type of action happened (jk medic etc are all returned "protection" cop watcher tracker are all returned "investigation"), so it's not like it'll give out any unwanted information.

Not claiming them means you're sure scum won't shoot you as a claimed PR, which I don't really get.

[Pjovek]

Llamarble is town. I am nearly 100% sure

Not what you should be talking about.

I suggest your next post be something like this: "random guy X is scum. I am nearly 100% sure"
Bonus points if you can actually explain it.

[Pjovek]

Why aren't you voting him exactly?

Funny.


As for the actual question, no real reason, I just didn't do it yet.
Not like I'm in a hurry.

[Pjovek]

These two posts, which were on the same page, make me cautious about assuming Tammy was scum with Ceph.

Yeah but normally I'm paranoid for a while and then I stop being paranoid, correctly so. This game I just think you're scum. Relatedly, I have not seen you be scum.

I can't ignore this correlation.

That's too bad for both of us if you're town.

Though, I'm in the middle of kinda fun state of mind with regard to this game. I see myself as approaching confirmed town status and my reads are going to be golden if that happens. So I should keep working on those reads.

Okay the ffery wagon is officially stupid.

Cabd? You're still scum reading ffery?

^^ She was wrong about why that post sounds like town-me, but not too far wrong.

But her comment did lead to the immediate dismantling of my wagon, even though she was commenting on something I had posted 2-3 days earlier. It still bothers me a little that Cabd didn't unvote or comment about the post until after Tammy did, because he should have known immediately what that post indicated about my stance and my estimation of my usefulness in the game.

ffery could maybe be town. I'll give her some space for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ABR

First vote off my wagon after Tammy's post.

I realize that this is meaningless to other players because you don't know my alignment. But, I do know it, and so do scum. I don't see why scum-Tammy would take this stance. And more importantly, I don't see why Ceph, now known to be scum, would move in lockstep with a scumbuddy on my wagon-dismantlement.

UNVOTE

I had other reasons to think Tammy was town on day 1. This wagon-interaction adds some objective weight to those reasons.

So you don't think mafia would defend a townie.
And you don't think mafia would disagree with each other in the thread.

I've seen better logic in my time.

[Pjovek]

I would have lynched katsuki yesterday too.

Just sayin'

Katsuki has been obvtown?

Go home, chamber, you're utterly pissed.

Well, Silver Bard was pretty fuckin' town.

That's not what he said.
And even if it was, there comes a point where that just doesn't matter anymore.

[Pjovek]

And even if it was, there comes a point where that just doesn't matter anymore.

Is that point day two with Espeon still alive?

For me personally, that point was when I was looking into his account so I could piss him off by revealing it.
And the exact point was when I read through his scumgame (could only find one)

But I understand that the points happen at different times for different people.


Why don't you just say what your read on Katsuki is.
I don't think you've properly stated a read all game - at least I can't remember any - so I'm sure it will be a refreshing exercise for you.

[Pjovek]

Why don't you just say what your read on Katsuki is.
I don't think you've properly stated a read all game - at least I can't remember any - so I'm sure it will be a refreshing exercise for you.

If you're talking about me ignoring this question, it's because I think I've been very transparent on my position for the most part.

No you're only implying implications and not being clear at all.

So I never caught up on the end of the last day but I'm feeling better about chamber.

While I'd love to promise a catch up someday, given my recent lack of motivation I doubt I'll ever catch up on the pages I missed.

I did think cephir was town given how he was pointing out the things regarding me/TSO that I was wanting to say so. >.>

The post above mine is pretty bad though.

Vote: Guy

Ew.

Katsuki has been obvtown?

Go home, chamber, you're utterly pissed.

Well, Silver Bard was pretty fuckin' town.

Literally right next to each other.

[Pjovek]

wuts going on here

[Pjovek]

Oh yeah, espeon fucked up the nightaction claims

Guess why he didn't want to claim them hue hue

[Pjovek]

To be fair, you and I were the obvious doc-protect options.
I still haven't got a good notion of what you did to me.

We were, but I feel the mafia are so far behind in most 3:12 states that they just need to shoot at one of us anyway, and hope things go thier way. So either its 4:11, or its 3:12 and the guy left has wiggled his way into a highly confirmed spot, or its 3:12 and the guy left isn't playing well or its 3:12 and the guy left has some OP ability he feels gives him a shot still.

I highly doubt its an OP ability, because then the game would be mafia sided to start, and I'd rather not assume the worst of the opposition when we are seemingly this far ahead and have room to play around some other options. So I'd like to act as though its either 4:11 or the scum has wiggled their way into our inner circle.

You can worry about it if the mafia are dead and the games still going.

No ability is actually strong enough to make 12:3 mafia favored.

[Pjovek]

No, I should rephrase: No ability that could realistically be in this game still.

You could do it with a three-shot anonymous dayvig or something along those lines. But that is clearly not a concern.

[Pjovek]

NK makes no sense if they have a RB left, then again, I can't really see how the NK makes sense either way, so whatever.

12:3 with no power roles on either side starts quite mafia sided.

literally what

[Pjovek]

I'd normally give you the benefit of the doubt and would have said that you're trolling already, only I've played in a 12:3 setup on this site where I had a scumteam with no real powerroles and town had the same amount of nightly KP as we did + other PR goodies.

So I'm kind of short on faith in that regard.

But I want to believe
11:4
I believe
I beliebe
I'm a Belieber

[Pjovek]

Link the game.

It was called "Mafia of the Raptured" or something, 2lazy2look4it

I'd normally give you the benefit of the doubt and would have said that you're trolling already, only I've played in a 12:3 setup on this site where I had a scumteam with no real powerroles and town had the same amount of nightly KP as we did + other PR goodies.

So I'm kind of short on faith in that regard.

But I want to believe
11:4
I believe
I beliebe
I'm a Belieber

I was specifically talking all vanilla. 11:2 mountainous has an awful win rate for town, and 12:2 doesn't give an extra lynch.

So am I.
12:3 vanilla is horribly town favored.

Town loses with 5 consecutive mislynches, Mafia loses with 3.
While town has 4 times the voting power of scum.

How anybody could ever think that to be balanced, or even mafia favored, I will never understand.

A good vanilla balance would be 12:4, in a 15 player game I'd assume the missing town member to make it 11:4 is compensated accordingly with town PRs.

[Pjovek]

....

Alright, if this is a site-wide infestation, I'll assume the game is a freewin then.

[Pjovek]

Alright, so considering you're claiming an unspecified PR, there is an unspecified protective role about and there is also what looks a lot like a multi-shot vig about, and considering the flipped godfather there is likely some investigative PR around as well... I'd say "heavy town PR" describes the current look of things rather well.

Meh I'll go back to assuming 11:4 then.
Unfortunately that means I'll actually have to read peoples, will do that the day after tomorrow probably maybe.
I'm usually pretty busy on weekends but this sunday mite b better. We'll see.

[Pjovek]

Alright, so considering you're claiming an unspecified PR, there is an unspecified protective role about and there is also what looks a lot like a multi-shot vig about, and considering the flipped godfather there is likely some investigative PR around as well... I'd say "heavy town PR" describes the current look of things rather well.

Meh I'll go back to assuming 11:4 then.
Unfortunately that means I'll actually have to read peoples, will do that the day after tomorrow probably maybe.
I'm usually pretty busy on weekends but this sunday mite b better. We'll see.

Can you link your home site?

Same one as Tunkeg actually,
teamliquid.net
I tried to softclaim it to him too but he ragequit the game instead.
Or maybe he saw it and actually was worried about his meta. I'm still not sure.

[Pjovek]

True, it's possible the town vig shot ETL. Best not say more on the subject though.

VOTE: Natirasha

[Pjovek]

Totes didn't see that one coming.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Pjovek]

Totes didn't see that one coming.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would still happily policy lynch you. Thats not what this is though.

Oh?

I wasn't aware you had ACTUAL REASONS for thinking that I am mafia.
Let's hear them, it'll at least be amusing for me, I'm sure.

[Pjovek]

It can be frustrating, sure, but the alternative is having poor reads.

Your call I suppose.

[Pjovek]

And yet you want to lynch me for nothing more than for being wrong about Espeonage.

Obviously, 'poor' is a remark spurred by my personal empirical evidence strongly supporting the opinion that it's a poor way to read people. If you want a definition of the contextual meaning, I would liken it to the term "of low accuracy".

Seeing as you think you know what you are doing, I can't really hope for you to even entertain the notion of doing it differently, though.

Which is all something I already expressed previously, in the way shorter and less-bothersome-to-type way:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Pjovek]

Taunting? No.

I don't find pure gut reads legit, like, period.
It's just that as an eternal optimist, I'm always in the vain hope that if I point out that people don't actually have legitimate reasons, those people will read that and see that they don't actually have legitimate reasons. Is all.

Realistically I know I don't need to bother, but I am a believer.

[Pjovek]

And yet you want to lynch me

for nothing more than for being wrong about Espeonage.

Obviously, 'poor' is a remark spurred by my personal empirical evidence strongly supporting the opinion that it's a poor way to read people. If you want a definition of the contextual meaning, I would liken it to the term "of low accuracy".

Seeing as you think you know what you are doing, I can't really hope for you to even entertain the notion of doing it differently, though.

Which is all something I already expressed previously, in the way shorter and less-bothersome-to-type way:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You do realize the bolded is a misrep?

Not at all, but I'm glad you told me!


I'm terribly sorry for ignoring an unspecified mystical concept of "interactions". That I predict largly don't even have anything to do with what I did, which means there really is nothing I could have done about them, which means that it's not worth talking about.
If somebody told me they think I'm scum because their grandmother's scrabble game last Sunday happened to spell my name I'd ignore it all the same.

[Pjovek]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Katsuki

Superior wagon, on further thought.

[Pjovek]

Vote for Pjo and if the game is still going after hes lynched worry about the double bus possibility?

ok
VOTE: Pjo

So you say we're both mafia, which means you need to switch onto me instead of lynching katsuki?

eh.

[Pjovek]

You should lynch katsuki first though, since if you lynch me you'll think you were wrong, but katsuki really does need some lynchin'.

[Pjovek]

Right, so let's lynch him.

I'll even refrain from defending myself tomorrow! Now that's a deal you don't come across often.

[Pjovek]

VOTE: Pjovek

Now it's L-1

Last I checked you don't even consider me scum.

Better get em mislynches in, eh? I get it.

[Pjovek]

Right, so let's lynch him.

I'll even refrain from defending myself tomorrow! Now that's a deal you don't come across often.

Tomorrow

Why not today?
You said it didn't matter to you, so it shouldn't matter to you.

[Pjovek]

VOTE: Pjovek

Now it's L-1

Last I checked you don't even consider me scum.

Better get em mislynches in, eh? I get it.

Last you checked, you weren't bargaining for another day.

Last I checked, I am actually doing that.

I said I won't be bargaining for another day tomorrow.

And what kind of lazy-ass reason is it to say "he's fine with being lynched today" anyways. Even if it was true, it speaks volumes that you can't find a better reason to justify a vote-switch.

As I said, I totally get it. You gotta be pretty desperate for mislynches by now.
It's just sad that you can't even pretend to have anything at all.

[Pjovek]

VOTE: Pjovek

Now it's L-1

Last I checked you don't even consider me scum.

Better get em mislynches in, eh? I get it.

Last you checked, you weren't bargaining for another day.

Last I checked, I am actually doing that.

I said I won't be bargaining for another day tomorrow.

And what kind of lazy-ass reason is it to say "he's fine with being lynched today" anyways. Even if it was true, it speaks volumes that you can't find a better reason to justify a vote-switch.

As I said, I totally get it. You gotta be pretty desperate for mislynches by now.
It's just sad that you can't even pretend to have anything at all.

It's such blatant survivalism, it makes my eyes water.

I would somehow have thought you'd find some other way to convince me my votes a bad idea.

I can't convince when you don't read my posts.
But alas, Kabd did it for me. Yayz.

[Pjovek]

I do read your posts. I'll even read them again.

Very generous.

Every fiber of my being anticipates how there's not going to come anything out of it.

[Pjovek]

(also amusing, pjo and proj are pushing kats-scum without actually giving a shred of reasoning as to WHY I'm scum)

Funny, isn't it?
Only it's happened to me for 3 days now.

[Pjovek]

hours of work

lol

[Pjovek]

Cabd didn't even color CTD green in the votecounts.

Laziest colorjob I've ever seen.

[Pjovek]

There may well be a vig, but it's not Katsuki.

There was a pretty obvious vig breadcrumb from somebody actually believable.

[Pjovek]

There may well be a vig, but it's not Katsuki.

There was a pretty obvious vig breadcrumb from somebody actually believable.

I didn't see that. Mind pointing it out?

Considering scum is apparantly dumb enough to have missed it, yes, yes I do mind pointing it out.

[Pjovek]

/shrug

why take the risk

[Pjovek]

1) You're not confirmed town.
2) Not my problem you're lynching me.
3) Even so why would I want to say it? If it would be about to get lynched, it can claim by itself quite easily, no risk there. It's not like its role magically disappears just because I'm not outing it right now.

Jesus christ you're not even trying to make sense.
I mean that's not anything new. But it sounds more impactful if I add "jesus christ" to it!

[Pjovek]

It benefits you to claim there is to dirty katsuki, your counter wagon.

Sure, the one that himself admitted that he's not the vig. I want to fling dirt on him by saying he's not a vig. Totally.
That's exactly my intention.
You are so smart, I'm learning a lot from you.

[Pjovek]

Your point being?

[Pjovek]

I'll be busy over the weekend as usual, so I won't even be able to stop you jubjubs.
Whatevs

Lynch Katsuki -> fferyllt -> chamber, in that order, aquire victory.
That's about it.

[Pjovek]

I'm sure you'd prefer to mislynch people faster, yes.