Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[borkjerfkin]

hey gif

anyone around afflicted by a similar condition as me?

[borkjerfkin]

GIF.

Answer plox.

[borkjerfkin]

he's not giving any thoughts on the game and he's claimed something that i don't think makes a lot of sense as a town role

If flavor is alignment independent I don't see how this follows

[borkjerfkin]

It's making me think that a certain part of my role is a red herring, though.

[borkjerfkin]

GIF

[borkjerfkin]

Is this is the question you asked me?
If so, I dont have any special condition.

No.
You know the flavor of my char, yes?
If so, you know there is some...affliction that makes my character unique.
Is anyone else in the game who has that exact same affliction?

[borkjerfkin]

No one else in this game is from same game as you boss wise.

That answers it. Thanks.

(fuck you FG )

[borkjerfkin]

on the other hand, given this is fakegod and role madness, i could def see a scum role who can multivote and knows everyone's flavour

I can see a scum role that does this too.
But you can't see a town role that does this?

I'm just trying to be clear about where your read is coming from.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah I don't want to massclaim either.

[borkjerfkin]

Muffin trying to figure stuff out looks town unlike that large game where he spent his majority of time trash talking and discrediting.

He didn't start out the game like that.
I'm not thrilled with his angle on you - it's simplistic, not based on play, and it's ONE ROLE in a HEAVY role madness game.

I don't like anything ns has posted either.

[borkjerfkin]

On game-related note, Borky, I see you not liking things.
Why?

I don't understand the question.

consider this post an OMGUS of you not liking anything I've posted

That's kinda pedestrian for you at this point.

[borkjerfkin]

@Bork: I want to know why you don't like things.

Sure.

I think I've explained what I don't like about the muffin thing pretty adequately but if you need more elaboration I can give it - I just don't want to reiterate crap that can be read.

For ns I didn't really like 1) the immediate (what occurred to me as an) overreaction to the vote related roles and b) I don't see why a miller claim should be invalidated by not having a cop in the last game.

Anyway he's engaging me decently (that is, the way I expect town-him to do it) so that's kind of tempering the read.

[borkjerfkin]

i was basing my read on play, though (mentioned in 99 and 114), it's just the questions that keep coming up about my read were asking about gif's role. and there's only so much you can say about someone who hasn't provided content

Eh, that's fair.

[borkjerfkin]

@bork: what's your read on GIF?

I don't really have a good one yet.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm pretty sure most of the things in this game are here just to fuck with us

Can pretty much already confirm this, unless GIF lied to me or doesn't know everything he thinks he does.

[borkjerfkin]

i am obvtown every game.

Hey I am rather proud of my spur of the moment decision to cop you coming back from McDonalds when GIF Pmed me and was like 'hey gaiz you got 2 hours to figure out your second shot" and mollie and majiffy were asleep

It really helped the game out a lot too

[borkjerfkin]

I don't get where GIF is getting his bork-obvtown read, I don't see anything really great coming from bork yet

I guarantee you will, but I had something I needed to clear up and it's cleared up to the best of my ability at this point in the game.

I'm liking your opening, tonally, even if I didn't like the original points you made.

[borkjerfkin]

this is a BLATANT MISREP. NS was voting Gaiden (who he was scumreading) when he pointed you out, and now he's, guess what? VOTING YOU.

Do you actually think it is more likely that:

1) RB saw NS was voting him and decided to attack him anyway for not voting him in the hope that nobody would see it
2) RB just didn't read ahead

[borkjerfkin]

@muffin: At the point he made 339? I don't really think so.

[borkjerfkin]

bork how do you like the chance GIF's spellcard on Sakura doesn't actually do what he said it does (especially with him not bolding Sakura's name)?

GIF has actually already hinted that it's not a pure protect.
As for the bold thing - if I were the mod, I would adhere to my own rule that 'if it appears to be a [day action]', it will be treated as a day action.

@FG: are you allowed to comment on whether or not GIF's action on Sakura is correctly formatted?

[borkjerfkin]

if you're scumreading me, why aren't you voting me?!?!" is an easy angle for scum to push to discredit ppl voting them, so I wanna look into it

I agree with this part.

[borkjerfkin]

uh, i asked about that post specifically and he said he found it from ISOing the people voting him, so yeah

Yeah I see.

I still think it's more of a derp and less of a scum.

[borkjerfkin]

i dunno. i don't really have much experience with him but he's playing a far safer game here than he was in gif's game

How would you describe my play (separate from majiffy and mollie's play) in that game?

I'm surprised you even thought to compare the two considering
1) I was actually pretty absent D1 in that game
2) My other two heads are much more forceful personalities than I.

[borkjerfkin]

ebwop: and by that i mean he hasn't really been creating any waves and he hasn't really expressed any controversial opinions on people, he's just kinda sitting back and observing and inserting questions here and there

Tone and connotation suggests that you're warming up to calling me scum for this.

[borkjerfkin]

Seriously, treat the miller claim at start of game as exactly what it is: a request for investigations to go elsewhere.

It's totally null otherwise.

(Doesn't apply to miller claims as a response to guilty investigations for obvious occam's razor related reasons)

[borkjerfkin]

and you're not really doing anything similar in this game so i don't know what to make of it

If you really just 'don't know what to make of it' then fine. (I can tell you what to make of it: due to the preponderance of role speculation stuff, which is really easy to talk a lot about without really saying anything meaningful, I'm not getting a plethora of strong play based reads yet.)

I'm not gonna fake that when I don't have it yet.

I will say that I don't really get scumreads on GIF. I've seen him fluff the fuck out of game openings before as town and it's pretty lacking in scum motivation to just come out with 'hey guys I know all y'alls characters'

[borkjerfkin]

TNE scum is a epic lurksack, even lurkier than Gaiden.

This isn't really how I recognize TNE scum. It's not really indicative of his HunterxHunter play at least, which is the only scum game of his I really remember.

[borkjerfkin]

Show me?

[borkjerfkin]

Also he lurked like a motherfucker in my touhou game and wasn't scum.

[borkjerfkin]

re: RB, demonstrability of that role is something we should actively try to pursue as the game goes forward. It's pretty easy to test if we're careful.

[borkjerfkin]

I will control myself. Grudgingly.
But, I get to hammer myself if the time comes dammit.
Give that to me at least.

I seriously can't get over how willfully antitown you're willing to be every game.

[borkjerfkin]

Where is bork and what did you do to him? D:

Don't worry your little head I will be back in short order

[borkjerfkin]

I am not even remotely caught up enough to endorse this

[borkjerfkin]

Going to catch up on RB wagon as soon as my free time allows.

[borkjerfkin]

Had my vote on him
remembered the suicidal element from his claim and moved him to townlist
and then just found something.
my vote never moved from him.

GIF what did you find here?

[borkjerfkin]

(In advance, I don't really think this is the time for any opaqueness from you)

[borkjerfkin]

I feel like we should be attempting to confirm RB (if possible) rather than lynching him. A potential town RB becomes a liability for scum late in the game that they will be forced to NK.

If that fails he can be a policy lynch the day prior to lylo, but I see a fair bit of 'RB's role is likely a scum role/too powerful if he's scum' which on D1 in a role madness game should be at odds with the fact that there are tons of mitigating factors that you can't possibly know about yet.

[borkjerfkin]

(The fact that it's such a powerful role as scum and a bit less powerful as town should be at least a mitigating factor that it might NOT be scum - see Saki in Tales of Vesperia)

[borkjerfkin]

Its as if you tried to be on my wagon without being on my wagon because you know gaiden was being your vote.

Couldn't you make that argument against any vote that sakura made, considering precedent?

[borkjerfkin]

Dont understand what it means. Sorry.

1) Why is sakura scummy for what gaiden is doing
2) Why is the fact that she pseudovoted on your wagon relevant (as opposed to somewhere else)

[borkjerfkin]

Btw

Bork

when is lylo with his power

Depends how we leash it. If we keep it at 2 (or reset it to 2) then it's normal lylo - 1.

[borkjerfkin]

p edit. i just answered it. Please read.

Your answer doesn't make any sense

[borkjerfkin]

She's scummy to me because due to Gaiden's behavior of already being her vote for like pretty much everything she did made it almost obvious that her pseudovoting me would result in Gaiden voting me. Her pseudo vote on me also makes it look like an opportunity to vote a wagon and not be involved at the same time.

So what does hypothetical town!sakura that wanted to vote you do in this situation?

[borkjerfkin]

Town!Sakura? What is town!sakura mean?

it's shorthand for 'if sakura were town'

she would have had a better reason than a "FFS I WANT TO KNOW MORE" thing on me.

that'd have been a better argument to make from the getgo "sakura is voting me for a dumb reason" than dancing around it with the gaiden thing.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm only not-townreading bitmap, bork, and feirei right now, excluding those who we'll have additional knowledge about tomorrow.

Hi Kagami,

Talk to me about some of your reads:

me (your 'not-townreading' read on me is incorrect)

muffin (mostly a tonal/gut thing but I'm not townreading him and #477 doesn't really make it very clear that you are, either)
RB (hard to tell if you're townreading him or not I guess? Is he one of the 'additional knowledge' people? Because otherwise you've barely mentioned him)
gaiden (townread? why?)
Varsoon (having trouble following your progression on Varsoon; is #580 a town endorsement?)

Let's start there I guess.

[borkjerfkin]

is not town reading me equivocal to scum reading me

It's been a minor gut scumread that I couldn't quantify very well.

some friendly advice though; let sleeping beasts lay dormant, because if you are scum and you awaken the beast, i am going to make this game thoroughly unenjoyable for you

What if I'm town and I awaken the beast?

VOTE: Muffin

This reeks of posturing on a read on me before I actually answer you/bullying me out of pushing you rather than actually trying to figure out why I'm thinking what I think.

coz i don't really know how town-you could think that, and i can see scum-you trying to capitalise on certain players' paranoia about me here.

What do you know about scum me, exactly? Because you

haven't

played with it, you've played with town me what, once? and you were scum and didn't even have to really analyze my thought process there because you knew I was town the whole time. So how the hell do you think you know what either version of me might or might not do?

and you played in/followed gif's touhou game where you correctly identified me as scum

Yeah, uh, the elephant in the room that you're ignoring was that it took a fucking cop guilty on you to really know that.
I think I've been pretty forthcoming in various places (this game, gif's dead thread) that my thought to investigate you was pretty spur of the moment.
You know damn well that my scumread on you in that game was 1) pretty nebulous D1 and 2) reliant on the reads of two other people (something you also quoted here!)

because i've played in three of your modded games start to finish

And yeah, you've been in a few of my modded games (as both alignments). One of the things that is interesting about modded games is that I don't have to form a read on you because

I already know what you are

(and even if I am reading the game, I'm not analyzing it to the point where I have solid meta on your game) I seriously don't understand when people use this as an excuse for why I should know you better than I do.

This game:
I didn't like your opening on GIF (89)
I don't get your trajectory on RB.
Your claim (don't target me with anything) isn't as specific as it should be (you can argue I'm trying to 'rolefish' or what the fuck ever, but if I were negative utility I'd be screaming to the high heavens about exactly what that negative utility is)

Has it been a strong read so far? No. I haven't tried to pretend it is.
But the way you're engaging me now is kinda garbage.

[borkjerfkin]

GIF looks to have a townread on you for flavor/flavorspec reasons, so I've been trying to work out what that is.

A specific person, if in the game, is 100% scum, according to my role-PM. I was trying to figure out whether or not that person is in the game.

[borkjerfkin]

I haven't gotten that same feeling, or really any especially pro-town feeling from your play

I can't really object to that too strongly if you do feel that way (even if I don't agree with you, my posting has been sparser than usual in this game). I'm going to try to focus a little more on this game now, but I really am town.

[borkjerfkin]

And I'm of a few minds on the mechanic.

1) If GIF is scum, he's probably going to lie to me about it in combination with scum possibly has a pool of unused characters that they can try to dodge the mechanic with
2) If GIF is town, it's possible that he's been given faulty information about it, cause if that person were in the game and GIF has all the info it's the easiest scum lynch ever.
3) It's incredibly likely that FakeGod put it in to fuck with me.

[borkjerfkin]

Well GiF knows every single person's character so why not talk with him about this?

Did you not see me doing exactly this earlier?

[borkjerfkin]

mafia doctor

Honestly, on a bastard level of 1-10 that ranks about a 2 for me.

Cabd does it
I do it
I haven't seen FakeGod do it but the only completed game of his I've been in is Frozen which didn't have anything super crazy, just neighbors out the ass

[borkjerfkin]

What i saw was something like "someone being afflicted by the same as you" or something like that. How much touhou flavor do you know?

Lots.

[borkjerfkin]

is this your reason for voting me?

I have a scumread on your slot and I am voting you because I have a scumread on you.

you should, by now, have at least a vague understanding of the differences between my town and scum games, if not a pretty decent understanding. and i know you also know that there are certain players who are going to be extremely paranoid about me in every game we play (because even if they hadn't stated it publicly in this game, they have stated it in other games you've either modded or played in). what i don't really get is how you think my play so far is my scum game, and i would expect town-you to be using what you know of my scum and town games to be making a judgment here. on the other hand, i can easily see scum-you capitalising on the paranoia that is going to be surrounding me for as long as i'm alive to justify a shitty read on me.

Your hypothesis seriously is that I'm trying to work the room with paranoia about you because I know it will work ahead of time?
Really?

That is a...farty point. That point smells like farts.

And you're basically demanding I use meta to judge you which I also find pretty

what? because i don't remember you having anything but a scum read on me D1 in gif's game (even if you weren't absolutely sure about it).

Not really true, but honestly, who cares? That was a different game, this is this game.
You're really flirting with a 'burden of proficiency' fallacy here, where since I read you correctly last time I should be able to read you immediately correctly every time.
Kagami's seen town me in at least two games and you don't see me jumping up her ass about not getting it right yet.

[borkjerfkin]

it's still far easier to notice habits, patterns, etc when you're watching a player play a game, knowing their alignment. and i refuse to believe you don't have a foundation for reading me from those games.

yeah, we call that 'confirmation bias'.
but go ahead and refuse to believe whatever you'd like.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Bitmap

Please get in the game and provide some thoughts on things:
How do you feel about the swell and fall of the RB wagon?
What are your thoughts on GiF?
Thoughts about your wagon? Do you perceive scum on it? If so, who?

He's likely on the express bus to force-replacement (saying this because it's happened with pretty much every game I've ever played with him). I don't think pressure is really going to get him in here.
Where else might you vote?

[borkjerfkin]

I like ns for town too at this point.
Attempting to read gaiden is not something I'm terribly confident in.

[borkjerfkin]

The player would have to have no usable daycards

I don't have any usable daycards.

[borkjerfkin]

what you're doing right now is looking exactly like what mollie did to me in xenosaga

Yes you can totally compare this to what a cornered last scum that is a different person from me did in a position where she had about no chance of winning no matter what she did.
But go ahead and qualify that if you'd like.

"posturing" is such a shitty excuse for voting me that i really don't know how you can think it makes sense.

What doesn't make sense about it? You got all 'if you're scum and scumreading me imma kick your ass' and didn't even consider that I was town scumreading you even though I hadn't even said why yet.
And then afterward you got into bullshit reasons on why town-me would never scumread you in this game.
That is awful.

i took that to mean you were making a meta judgment on me.

Not really. You just seem a step off to me in all the angles that I've seen you come out with.
That's sometimes the best I can do early game.

p-edit:

i'm just using what I am asserting that bork knows of me

fixed

[borkjerfkin]

At this point it's hard for me to imagine bork being scum without either GIF or muffin being scum as well, and I don't want to lynch either of those two.

Why would I have to be scum w/ muffin if I were scum?

[borkjerfkin]

like this right here is not, and probably will never be, a good reason to think i'm scum

i could go through bork games i've been town and show where people have said similar things about me and accused me of being scum for similarly shoddy reasoning

so bork should know this is not a good reason for suspecting me

I literally can't parse the point you're trying to make here.

[borkjerfkin]

except mollie was pretty much a consensus town read when she started attacking me

she was not cornered (except in-so-far-as being the last scum left alive). i was, quite literally, the only player that suspected her for a very long time

i know you're different players but that's not the point. you're using an argument that is completely invalid, similar to one that you've seen scum use against me before (and i've also been accused of being scum for "posturing" by town in one of your games, like by cabd in xenogears, and it was just as invalid there) - and i don't see how you think that makes sense if you're actually town

COME ON REALLY?

SHE WAS 1 SCUM IN 11 PEOPLE WITH A KNOWN JK ALIVE

because me trying to understand your read progression on me and how you came about the read isn't me considering the possibility that you're town and your read just really, really sucks balls?

Except your tone was reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hostile and you pretty much outright threatened me there, so if that's 'trying to understand' then I'd really hate to see what you'd do when you're actually trying to be threatening.

you voted me for something that is an attribute of my town game, an attribute that you've seen me attacked for multiple times as town

This just objectively is not a good point. I don't know what else to say about it. If I think a thing is scummy or if I think you're scummy overall or even if I just have a goddamn niggling feeling about you, that's sure as shit going to override the argument of 'player X does this as town'.

[borkjerfkin]

you're using an argument that is completely invalid

, similar to one that you've seen scum use against me before (and i've also been accused of being scum for "posturing" by town in one of your games, like by cabd in xenogears, and it was just as invalid there) - and i don't see how you think that makes sense if you're actually town

If the underlined were really true you wouldn't have to qualify it with all the other bullshit you put in that sentence.

[borkjerfkin]

i also don't really know why you're making a big deal out of this? it's a very minor point.

Considering you're just trying to use it to make a terrible association across games for a different person, you're right, it is a minor point.

what is your point here? i quite literally said i don't see how town-you thinks what you think

That you earnestly think that a town me would NEVER not have a town read at this point in the game with no flips or really a whole hell of a lot to analyze (high page count is not synonymous with me going to have the game sorted) is a really hard pill to swallow for me.
Like I could just be totally fucking wrong and off my rocker and still be town me thinking you're scum, but you never intended to even consider it from your approach to me in your response.

yes, it is. you're accusing me of being scum for something i do as town. something you know i do as town because you've seen it in your own games and you've seen how people react to it. that makes it a bullshit point.

You're just repeating yourself. I don't have anything additional to say about this.

[borkjerfkin]

(even though he's claiming he doesn't read my posts in depth in the games he's modded - which seems rather fucking ridiculous to me, but whatever)

Sometimes I do read. If the game is moving slowly.
If it's/i'm 1) moving quickly 2) is late/i'm tired 3) am busy 4) trying to coddle one of my two children, I am scanning the page for bolds and that is it.

[borkjerfkin]

Also, shit, I went back and read the mollie thing and a huge part of your argument on her was that her read

changed

on you for no reason.

how the fuck does that at all apply to me in this game? It doesn't.

i don't understand how town-you could have a scum read on me at this point. or a null read, really. that's why i asked about it. and you keep not answering me.

Because it's a dumb question in general with a myriad of possible answers depending on the situation?
Let's say we're both town? Maybe my gut was wrong? Maybe I shouldn't have felt as bad about your early game 'I think x is likely a scum role' stuff as I did.
Maybe I am entirely misinterpreting your interaction with me since then?

But:
Maybe you're scum and I'm right?

[borkjerfkin]

ok

let's say you don't actually have an understanding of my games because you haven't read my posts in the games you modded

even if i'm wrong about that, i thought you did. that is a large part of why i started questioning your read on me.

i see you ignoring this now in favour of calling me scum for thinking you should know better

why aren't you factoring this into the equation?

Because I think it should be self evident that
1) you don't really have a great idea about how well I know your play or you as a person at all.
2) it's plausible (and even likely) that, as a mod, I don't get heavily invested in the cases people make in my games. I think any time I've referenced meta from one of my own games it's because I've gone back and read it after the fact.
3) asking me why I'm not overriding what I think about you this game with meta from other games supplied directly by you isn't terribly compelling.

[borkjerfkin]

i'm not saying you're scum because your read on me changed, so i don't see how that's relevant.

You're saying my attacks on you are like mollie's attacks on you. 1) They're not (the point I am making here) and 2) this is kinda irrelevant.

make it clear exactly why you think i'm scum

you mentioned "trajectory" on rb. i asked you to elaborate on that.

you have issues with me tone or something (issues prior to this "posturing" stuff). i thought this was based on meta, but you're claiming it wasn't. so what is it based on?

Why? At this point it's nothing more than a vehicle for you to go back and show that I didn't have good reasons to suspect you at all.
I mentioned already that it was mostly gut, but let's say I had no reason and got nothing from any of your posts and you were null. Now what?

As for RB - I didn't really see an actual scum read other than 'he's not looking town' (#556) and that you're paranoid about the role, but the wagon kinda grew sizeably and then you jumped off it and I didn't really understand at all how you felt about him at that point.

I suspect you much more now than I did then, so?

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think #1012 is any ground that hasn't already been tread.

I'm hardly 'tunneling' you considering nobody else is really posting right now other than Sakura, but I think this has reached the point where I'm not breaking any new ground and am actively scaring other people off from the thread.

[borkjerfkin]

you do realise that bork was the one who brought up the whole "cornered scum" thing, right?

Only to very highlight the fact that you were very obviously comparing apples and oranges

[borkjerfkin]

Like your argument still makes very little sense to me.

I still can't really tell if it's more
"Other people have attacked me for <x> when I was town" => "You should know that I do <x> as town and since you don't, you're scum"

or

"Other people have attacked me for <x> when I was town and they were scum" => "you are also scum for doing it"

Neither of which really work logically and whether or not I am even doing them is entirely coincidental and uninteresting.

And this is all while avoiding whether <x> is actually scummy or not and uuuuuuuuuuuuugh I don't want to rehash this garbage

Do others think I'm way off base or what?

[borkjerfkin]

Oh but you're still sorting me, I forgot

[borkjerfkin]

ns if you are still paranoid about me at this point you don't ever get to claim to be able to read me ever again

[borkjerfkin]

"I don't trust myself to read people"

I'm not 'people', I'm me.

[borkjerfkin]

But tell me why you think me vs muffin is a big town v town clusterfuck cause no one seems to be able to do that

[borkjerfkin]

I can't find 1543 for the life of me.
Can you link so I can read that scum game?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37251

(it's ns scum, muffin town)

Muffin does self-meta there. Quite a bit actually, mostly in his interactions with nacho.
But he does it to prove he's town, not to prove his attacker is scum because as town he fucking knows people will just be wrong about him sometimes.

He's also much more quick to resort to ad-hom when he's being pressured as town (so am I, actually, but I'm trying to tone that down overall because it makes games patently unfun). He hasn't done it to me really at all this game. Small sample size, but it's there.

There really are some key differences, and post #3536 in that game might be the best example of it - he always at least considers the possibility that Nacho is just fucking wrong or being an idiot or whatever he wants to call him at the time, and this is after miles of arguing with nacho about shit.

Whereas in this game he decides that I'm scum for even thinking to suspect him because I should fucking know better? No.

[borkjerfkin]

for the record there's also some posts I noticed from zmuffin that looked town and one in particular I just can't see him making as scum. but I'm not sure if I should tlak about it before I get answers to my questions

I would like to see them when you're ready to post them.

[borkjerfkin]

thanks for linking that bork, that clears off my paranoia of muffin and now im p.sure he's town here.

...go on...

[borkjerfkin]

His arguments with you are pretty similar to his arguments he threw at Nacho, also the way he's dealing with ppl here all the "You must be out of your mind if you think this is my scum game" and "I really can't see why you don't see me being obvtown here" among others and his tone seems really similar to that game, in Land of Fantasy he kept mostly deflecting attacks rather than engaging while here he's been engaging with you and me. I don't think this is similar to Land of Fantasy it looks more similar to that game you linked.

I am going to reread gifs game tonight then, hopefully sans confirmation bias

[borkjerfkin]

Spread way too thin atm - will get back into this tomm.

[borkjerfkin]

At this point it's hard for me to imagine bork being scum without either GIF or muffin being scum as well, and I don't want to lynch either of those two.

Why would I have to be scum w/ muffin if I were scum?

Kagami I don't recall you answering this. I want to know what part of your townread on me falls apart if muffin or GIF turn out to be scum.

Especially muffin - I'm really puzzled at how you're getting any kind of scum-scum vibe off of our interactions so far.

[borkjerfkin]

I am seeing a decent amount of annoyance from RB's responses to others that my gut is telling me is more likely from town than scum (as if he feels he's being misunderstood a lot)
It's a pretty weak read.

[borkjerfkin]

Why wouldnt it be odd for you when someone suddenly decides to unvote just coz an L-1 (or was it L-2?) when he's supposedly suspecting the person and thinks they are scum.

This strikes me as a playstyle tell; I am marginally more likely to do this as town than scum (I'm pretty sure I did this in Micro 188)

It very much depends on RB's alignment, though.

[borkjerfkin]

uh... er... um... wha?

I'm reading over RB's recent posts right now trying to figure out where you're coming from with this and i literally cannot see the "annoyance" you're referring to, let alone a feeling of being misunderstood. unless this is solely referring to the sakura thing? or something i'm completely missing? in the first place, what makes annoyance at being misunderstood a town trait? if scum is being scum read because they think they're being misunderstood, wouldn't they be equally annoyed?

I was reading #839 (RB's response to Varsoon) when I posted that, and I think it's the best example, but #739, #744 to sakura (even though I disagree with the point that sakura should be held accountable for the moves gaiden is making) about the GIF spellcard thing leading up to that look like legit frustration with people focusing on painting his asking GIF to recast his spellcard when it's really not scummy.

Might scum also get frustrated and being scumread for the wrong reasons? Sure. Depends on the player, but I find that emotion bubbles to the surface more easily (for me) as town than scum. I said as much that it's a weak read and remains such. If you're actually interested in working that out (your tone suggests you're not, but if you are) I am listening.

We've got a decent negative connection between feirei and RB too (1081).

also, where are you at with reads? do you still think i'm scum? if so, why? who else do you think is scum?

What has changed? I hate your early interaction with me. It made no sense to me and it's probably going to color my read of you the rest of the game. If you even had any pretense of trying to sort me you wouldn't have alienated me as quickly as you did in #938. I did look through some other games.

1543 - I don't really agree (w/ Sakura I guess) that your interaction w/ Nacho is really analogous with your interaction with me here - the one time you even offer the burden of proficency case is way way into the game [#3748, just to prove that yes I did devote a significant portion of my afternoon to reading this] wrt events IN THAT GAME and not through this magical window into your playstyle that causes me to read you as town incredibly quickly that I should've had coming into the game because you say so. And even after all that he was also town, a demonstrable example of someone misreading you that has played with you before (as if you really thought that doesn't happen all the time) with someone who was a player in every single game that I modded that you were also in, which it doesn't look like you're taking into account. Your reasons for reading Nacho scum were much more expansive than that, anyway.

I also looked at Titan where muffin really wasn't under any sort of serious pressure all game from my skim.

And GIF's game is colored by the fact that your defense is almost entirely devoted to (by necessity) discrediting our alleged cop guilty on you, so it's not terribly telling.

The fact of the matter is that your self meta / pointing to things you often do as town => therefore you are definitely town doing them now doesn't wow me (something not specific to you, really) - it's some of the easiest to fake stuff there is, so I call it null and I think everyone else should too. But they're willing to gutshot meta you for now so I'm probably going to have to explore other avenues anyway. The seam between me scumreading you for using self-meta (I never claimed this and still don't) and me scumreading you for asserting town-me would DEFINITELY town-read you for that and since I'm not doing this I'm scum (this is a position I actually hold) is small but notable.

You can say I'm 'tunneling' if you want, but if things happen that make me think I'm wrong on you, lo and behold my read will change. That's just kinda how this shit works.

though, on the subject of bork's semi-claim, i have two issues. the first is that i'm not actually sure fakegod would ever tell someone "X is scum in this game" if X isn't in the game*. that would be directly lying to a player (the very definition of bastard). but the second issue i have, and the one i'm trying to figure out at the moment, is whether bork sees whatever fakegod told him and thinks, "yes, this setup is very poorly designed and so easily broken that the mod has told someone everyone's flavour, thus giving me a free cop investigation."

I mean I was pretty fucking clear on what my role says - "if X is in the game, they are scum." It did not say "X definitely is in the game" (otherwise I'd have GIF's head on a fucking stick right now), so I don't have any idea where this 'lying to a player' thing even comes from - a town flip of X is literally the only way that statement could be a lie.
I don't know what you're trying to say in that last sentence - the only sane move for me to make upon seeing someone who knows all the characters is to at least check with GIF to see whether or not X is in the game. I even outlined all the possibilities as to what this situation entails in my #950, so you don't actually have to speculate at all on what I think about it.
I feel like you're trying your damndest to be obtuse about the whole thing.

I can go more in breadth with my reads later/tomorrow.

[borkjerfkin]

i'm reading raging bull's #839 and i don't really see where you're coming from. it's very easy to get frustrated with someone when they are legitimately wrong about something. it surfaces in my scum games all the time and i know it surfaces in others, too. i generally treat reactions to things that are blatantly incorrect (#839 is an example of this) as fairly alignment null (depends on the scale of the reaction, i guess, but i don't think #839 was telling either way). i can't really parse what in that post you think is more likely to come from town-frustrated-that-they're-being-accused-of-something-falsely than scum-frustrated-that-they're-being-accused-of-something-falsely

Ok, fine, you think it's null, I think it's slightly town. I don't know what else to say about it. The fact that it's the most noteworthy thing I have to say about him can speak to how close to null he is.
What's your current reasoning for scumreading RB as of #1135?

I refuse to engage you any longer re: my read on you; I've talked it to death and am done rehashing it with you. Others disagree and that sucks. When I see a place I'd rather have my vote you can rest assured it will be there.

carefactor: 0 - (also ironic that you talk about how obtuse i'm supposedly being given your reasoning for scum reading me)

answer this question: did you believe the mod had made an error or something? because your responses to gif suggest you were surprised

I mean, everyone else understood what I said pretty clearly, yeah?
The thought that the mod made an error never crossed my mind (that'd be a pretty egregious fucking error). Was I disappointed in GIF's answer? yes. Surprised? no. I think this is also pretty clear.

[borkjerfkin]

this is gonna have to be a prod dodge, i am too tired to post.

[borkjerfkin]

gonna reread everyone tonight. Been extremely burned out and I apologize.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm here.

[borkjerfkin]

also that role makes a lot of sense with a public IC in the game. investigate IC -> find out if sane or insane

Investigating the IC is incredibly suboptimal because you've essentially wasted a day without a result, even if you've figured your sanity out. Just investigate a dude and say the result you got.

1) investigate someone with your for sure shot that is a polarizing presence (muffin, gif, RB if they survive today, etc.)
2) then investigate people in order of their likelihood to die on a given day (more likely first). You then force scum to either
a) kill you, awarding more value to your role that is strictly weaker than a real cop
b) kill someone besides the people you investigated, otherwise they reveal your sanity.
3) If you're scum, then you'll paint yourself into a corner eventually.

[borkjerfkin]

Hey Sakura, wanna lynch bitmap?

What has made you want to lynch bitmap now as opposed to when he was just a lurksack?

[borkjerfkin]

I do see a trajectory on gaiden from RB from yesterday, but I do want clarification.

Idk pieguy kill. He pretty much town read scum so idk why him.

What does this mean?

[borkjerfkin]

That's actually a pretty good point - neither of those people were ideal vig targets. If a vig did kill Bitmap, that was really bad play. If they killed pie, well, I dunno, he doesn't really fit the profile of a good vig shot. I'd like to assume single scum until I explicitly know otherwise, but I don't, and I'm not sure it's terribly behooving to have a vig claim right now.

I don't know what to think about the fact that I included muffin in my list of investigation targets and he didn't react to it at all (I won't claim this was a reaction test; it was a derp by me: at the time I'd forgotten he'd claimed for people not to target him),

but if muffin intended to claim PGO and merely softed it instead of outright claiming PGO, well, he should die - someone's going to be curious about that soft, and they have every right to be.

p-edit: guess that answers that.

[borkjerfkin]

In all likelihood, that answer is yes. Are you sure it's going to be protown to find that out right now?

[borkjerfkin]

(but I gotta say I've about had my fill of no role flip games)

[borkjerfkin]

((also pie you're welcome for my not taking Remilia from you))

[borkjerfkin]

If the end result here is nothing more than license to NK spec about GIF killing pie, I disagree that anything close to offsets the negative return on outing a vig.

[borkjerfkin]

Tinfoil Theory 3: Scum probably has a PGO just like in touhou upick 1 and bitmap scanned that.

occam's razor speaks pretty heavily against this.

Anyway I was hoping I'd come into this day with more information than I currently have, so I'd like to see what ns has to say.

[borkjerfkin]

No actually i'm thinking is more likely scum wouldn't have let bitmap live

This actually is the most likely thing, IMO.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm trying to see if pie could've been like a hider / weak X that targeted GIF (his main source of ire at EoD yesterday) but there isn't a crumb of any kind that I can see about it.

[borkjerfkin]

yep.

[borkjerfkin]

sakura reported an innocent on varsoon

[borkjerfkin]

I can tell you that pieguy was "Queen of all Trades" if that helps.

I am confused by how you know this but I need to read the last few posts

[borkjerfkin]

My role name is "Specific Jack of All Trades," and is completely misleading as to what I do.

...'kay.

Do you have anything to say about whatever the kerfuffle between you and muffin is? Because it hasn't been terribly helpful to me thus far.

[borkjerfkin]

(No jack or trades in my role name, but my role name is similarly worthless to divine what I can actually do)

[borkjerfkin]

Also my ability is fucking garbage and I'm never using it.

[borkjerfkin]

gaiden is doing this thing he does when he's town which is to divulge information in the thread for absolutely no reason

[borkjerfkin]

@mod - do targeted spellcards have to have the target be bolded?
would an untargeted spellcard be invalidated if it were formatted in an ambiguous way to make it look targeted?

This fuzzy mechanics speculation stuff is bullshit.

[borkjerfkin]

If that's true then FG made a bad ruling and needs to fix it. It's unfair to have less information because gif is allowed to skirt by with a formatting error.

Pedit: and I am verifying it publicly.

[borkjerfkin]

Because Kahana and gif can't both be telling the truth

[borkjerfkin]

I DID ask about the post. Yesterday. FG said no comment, so I'm trying to actually ask a question he won't say that to.

I mean it should be pretty obvious that his answer will allow me to figure out what happened

[borkjerfkin]

As I've said in post 628, please bold your target if you have any.

Please do not format untargeted spellcards in an ambiguous way to mislead. I will ask you to reformat.

This is totally at odds with your not asking GIF to resubmit.

[borkjerfkin]

And due to this I think we are entitled, unambiguously, to know whether or not that action was processed against a target or against no target (or if it was not processed?)

I don't understand the purpose of being ambiguous about this since it's an entirely unnecessary source of confusion and I'm not trying to break the game I just want clarity on exactly one thing that should have been clear to begin with.

[borkjerfkin]

Look. GIF attempted to mislead by formatting his spellcard declaration in such way. His card doesn't require a target.

Thank you.

That's all I ever wanted (and it's pretty clear that at least half the playerlist was still confused about it)

[borkjerfkin]

ATTENTION

Today is now a 1v1 of Me and GIF.

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

Works for me.

VOTE: Notscience

If he flips town then I'm fine with vigging/lynching GiF.

The chance of NS scum at this point is pretty much nil. It's a meta read, but it's probably the most solid meta read I've ever had on anyone.

Varsoon - how sure are you that Vic is town? (this isn't a leading question, I just want an answer.)

[borkjerfkin]

Where is all the gaiden hate coming from this game? I'm not feeling it.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah, he's leaning town for me.

I
1) Don't think he's lying
2) Don't think he'd tell the thread his cards are gone as scum.

[borkjerfkin]

he's not a town read

Is he a scum read?

[borkjerfkin]

and i don't know why you think he'd keep it hidden as scum. he'd know a town player destroyed his cards and would be looking to see his reactions to it

Yeah, maybe.

I dunno. At the end of the last Viscon I was really confident in Gaiden town (and I couldn't really put my finger on why then either, but it was there).

I'm not fully seeing it yet, but I'm seeing seeds of it.

[borkjerfkin]

Reveal me it's fine.
I'm drunk and have people over

[borkjerfkin]

You get to fill in the blank for my arch nemesis though

[borkjerfkin]

so i'm wondering about what to do wrt the other 2, my original plan was to protect ns, but a GiF kill if he tries to live by making himself unlynchable or unvotable or whatever he says he can do is another good option, if he's town he can town it up and not get lynched without the need to use spellcards.

I can keep you alive for a day, but it won't get you an extra alignment result.

[borkjerfkin]

protect me and I guarantee that you live another day - but I need to know you're doing it first.

[borkjerfkin]

then that's a huge positive synergy between us

[borkjerfkin]

Considering GIF I think has proven he knows flavor, I'll just claim mine.

I'm Kaguya.
You can probably figure out who the 'X is scum if they're in the game' is.

[borkjerfkin]

yuuuuuuuuuuup

[borkjerfkin]

sarcasm?

No

I hadn't claimed the fact it destroyed all cards but one yet

I was going to see what he did, if he admitted he had one card left. If he kept it hidden, he was scum hiding a trump card.

This is eliminating the (ns-town, gaiden-scum) combo for me.

I just don't see the situation where gaiden guessed that not-scumbuddy ns was going to reaction test for 1 spellcard left available and decided to knowingly lie and then redact before ns even reacted to it to manipulate ns and buy towncred that he wasn't at all sure he'd get.

I feel like gaiden is less likely scum unless they are both scum and they planned this together, and I'm not reading either one that way independently. I'll sleep on it but that sounds good to me.

[borkjerfkin]

I need a V/LA until Wed evening to get my shit together

.

Apologies.

[borkjerfkin]

I caught zmuffin day 1 and none helped me lynch him. Fuck his ability that blocks stuff.

um

[borkjerfkin]

was really frustrating to have everyone handwave my shit on muffin away with armchair meta *cough pie sakura cough*

[borkjerfkin]

I think site meta has actually shifted toward cops being more credible than in the past. I don't think that was a huge problem with balance here although Varsoon probably would not have drawn a vote from me easily at all.

I had absolutely no idea how to use my role effectively.