Suburban Warfare - GAME OVER

[Shinobi]

FINE. they probably sent bob to do the kill.

i'm not voting you because since last night i thought there was a good chance that you're just a tunneling dumbass (like... you're accusing me of being).

agar and majiffy certainly disagreed, though. not sure what the new guy thinks.

I thought we established that I can't think things until I'm done catching up.

Also, hello. I'm the new Zivel. I'll post my thoughts/reads as soon as I can.

[Shinobi]

I honestly don't have a clue why I'm being voted.

I'm not even sure why you're alive. Didn't MS claim a guilty on you?

On page 34 or so.

[Shinobi]

You seem kinda scummy^

No, you.

[Shinobi]

Antihero I fucking love you. You're hilarious.

Also, I'm on page 50.

[Shinobi]

Not like it isn't warranted.

[Shinobi]

How do you even fire someone from a house?

Is the house actually a cannon or something?

[Shinobi]

I was cracking a joke. I can see it didn't have the impact I wanted it to.

Alas.

[Shinobi]

That's because I'm still reading the game you dingus.

I can't post if I don't know what's going on. Believe me, I've tried.

[Shinobi]

Not really.

I had some thoughts and they wound up being completely out-of-date and stupid because there's a bunch of stuff that never got updated in the OP.

Ask my neighborhood. They know.

[Shinobi]

Ohhhhh please tell me he just F'd up guys.

Is there anything in the neighborhood that would be after page 34. Anything at all.

Please god please

We are going to be the best of friends.

The best of friends.

[Shinobi]

@ spyrex: you were saying shinobi should stop telling us they are reading and actually be reading but these two things are not mutually exclusive so it really just sounded stupid

Unless he's got two monitors and robot data eyes they actually are mutually exclusive and every post of dudes I'm totally gonna post something I promise is not just a waste of data on the server but actively not doing the thing that he's saying hes going to do.

I mean he's all over this page like stink on shit. Almost like that other half isn't really gonna happen.

(its ok, I'm waiting for the buckle down vote on me. It'll come)

What exactly are you implying here?

[Shinobi]

I'm kind of caught up, I think. I'll be developing my reads as I move along, but I might as well give a couple that I feel kind of strongly about at the moment.

Antihero is town. He was showing the right amount of doubt in the proper places and displayed his thought process in a really pro-town way. I don't get the feeling that he's hiding anything in his posts, and hammering scum yesterday is just the icing on the cake. Really wish this guy was still in my neighborhood, tbh. Anyone that has antihero as a scumread after the Day 2 debacle needs to be thrown into the sun. Chamber, I'm talking to you. Whoever is in his neighborhood needs to grill him on his reads until he either starts making sense or he slips up. His vote on Antihero better be a joke, like he's trying to be funny.

But I don't mean funny.

The question I have for MS would be how his reads played out during day 2. He voted Bob, but then stated that he didn't vote ZZZX, his scumread, because "tied vote counts are funny." I have two problems with this:
1) He absolved himself of taking responsibility for the lynch because "lol votecounts," which meant that he never had to be tied to Bob when Bob flipped scum.
2) If ZZZX is town, then he gets to bask in the fact that he was on the right wagon. Just looking at his ISO shows that he didn't really have any vested interest in finding scum yesterday.

Also, the thing with him conf-towning his slot early is really silly. With the abundance of power roles in this setup, he could just as easily stick with the cop claim and claim that Spyrex was framed. It wouldn't even be that much of an issue because of the possibility of all these roles. The wifom defense is bullshit.

That being said, his recovery after making the claim was pretty solid. Lots of reads, backed by some good analysis. My biggest issue was his day 2. I want to hear his thought process on day 2 because it doesn't seem like there's anything in his ISO that can be attributed to a townie thought process.

Has Hoopla ever given a list of her reads? She just changed up the entire makeup of the neighborhoods, and as far as I know, this hasn't been discussed with anyone. ZZZX hit a nail on the head earlier when he mentioned that we could handle the neighborhoods like masonaries, but I don't see it mentioned anywhere how she intended to redistribute them or even if she could up until she actually did it. This makes me think: why were the neighborhoods redistributed this way? For all we know, she could have put scum into all three of the neighborhoods and destroyed that plan for no reason, unless Hoopla wanted it that way. I'd like an explanation at some point, specifically on how her powers work and if she actually has control over that or not.

If she actually went and did this without telling anyone, while having the ability to pick and choose who gets into which neighborhood, then I want answers. The night kills point to her and I can see tons of scum motivation for putting possible moles into every neighborhood.

Moving on, I think farside is kinda town. His filter looked okay to me. The only thing I don't like is that he basically withheld his opinion of me because of...principle I guess? I really need/want to hear more from him, but he basically absolved himself of talking for the rest of today. No matter what happens, I want someone from his neighborhood to come out and tell us what he was thinking during the night sequence. I get the feeling that this could be a setup, but I need to know what's going on in his head.

Also, if Agar is just going to fuck off and tell people to lynch him, then we should just lynch him and move on. I'm not wasting my time with someone who basically refuses to play. I think Desp hit a good point with the "I'm not selling out my partners" shtick, and ZZZX hit a nail on the head when he stated that Agar's defense of Bob didn't make any sense. That role was awesome for scum to have, so it makes a ton of sense for scum!Agar to stick his neck out the way he did to defend something so powerful for scum.

TLDR: Farside is towny, Antihero is town as balls, Hoopla is scummy, MS is null, chamber is scummy. Agar is scummy and useless. ZZZX is towny. Desperado and ZZZX are making good points imo, and are probably townie because of it.

[Shinobi]

This guy is town^

That doesn't really answer my question.

Did you actually have a reason for voting Bob over Z besides what you stated or is that just the end of things?

[Shinobi]

dot dot dot

[Shinobi]

Alright, that's enough.

Whoever is in MS's 'hood, ask him the question I was asking. The dude just gave me a townread and dodged it completely, so I'm thinking he knows it has some merit and he doesn't really have an answer. That, or he won't talk to me for some reason. Fine, whatever. Farside isn't coming back until the next day so I'll just make the next day come by faster.

The only thing that might make me reconsider my next move is that it might piss chamber off since his computer fucking explodes if the day ends.

Oh wait, no it won't.

VOTE: Agar

I am not listening to this guy telling us to lynch him for the next week or whatever.

[Shinobi]

I'm kind of caught up, I think. I'll be developing my reads as I move along, but I might as well give a couple that I feel kind of strongly about at the moment.

Antihero is town. He was showing the right amount of doubt in the proper places and displayed his thought process in a really pro-town way. I don't get the feeling that he's hiding anything in his posts, and hammering scum yesterday is just the icing on the cake. Really wish this guy was still in my neighborhood, tbh. Anyone that has antihero as a scumread after the Day 2 debacle needs to be thrown into the sun. Chamber, I'm talking to you. Whoever is in his neighborhood needs to grill him on his reads until he either starts making sense or he slips up. His vote on Antihero better be a joke, like he's trying to be funny.

But I don't mean funny.

The question I have for MS would be how his reads played out during day 2. He voted Bob, but then stated that he didn't vote ZZZX, his scumread, because "tied vote counts are funny." I have two problems with this:
1) He absolved himself of taking responsibility for the lynch because "lol votecounts," which meant that he never had to be tied to Bob when Bob flipped scum.
2) If ZZZX is town, then he gets to bask in the fact that he was on the right wagon. Just looking at his ISO shows that he didn't really have any vested interest in finding scum yesterday.

Also, the thing with him conf-towning his slot early is really silly. With the abundance of power roles in this setup, he could just as easily stick with the cop claim and claim that Spyrex was framed. It wouldn't even be that much of an issue because of the possibility of all these roles. The wifom defense is bullshit.

That being said, his recovery after making the claim was pretty solid. Lots of reads, backed by some good analysis. My biggest issue was his day 2. I want to hear his thought process on day 2 because it doesn't seem like there's anything in his ISO that can be attributed to a townie thought process.

Has Hoopla ever given a list of her reads? She just changed up the entire makeup of the neighborhoods, and as far as I know, this hasn't been discussed with anyone. ZZZX hit a nail on the head earlier when he mentioned that we could handle the neighborhoods like masonaries, but I don't see it mentioned anywhere how she intended to redistribute them or even if she could up until she actually did it. This makes me think: why were the neighborhoods redistributed this way? For all we know, she could have put scum into all three of the neighborhoods and destroyed that plan for no reason, unless Hoopla wanted it that way. I'd like an explanation at some point, specifically on how her powers work and if she actually has control over that or not.

If she actually went and did this without telling anyone, while having the ability to pick and choose who gets into which neighborhood, then I want answers. The night kills point to her and I can see tons of scum motivation for putting possible moles into every neighborhood.

Moving on, I think farside is kinda town. His filter looked okay to me. The only thing I don't like is that he basically withheld his opinion of me because of...principle I guess? I really need/want to hear more from him, but he basically absolved himself of talking for the rest of today. No matter what happens, I want someone from his neighborhood to come out and tell us what he was thinking during the night sequence. I get the feeling that this could be a setup, but I need to know what's going on in his head.

Also, if Agar is just going to fuck off and tell people to lynch him, then we should just lynch him and move on. I'm not wasting my time with someone who basically refuses to play. I think Desp hit a good point with the "I'm not selling out my partners" shtick, and ZZZX hit a nail on the head when he stated that Agar's defense of Bob didn't make any sense. That role was awesome for scum to have, so it makes a ton of sense for scum!Agar to stick his neck out the way he did to defend something so powerful for scum.

TLDR: Farside is towny, Antihero is town as balls, Hoopla is scummy, MS is null, chamber is scummy. Agar is scummy and useless. ZZZX is towny. Desperado and ZZZX are making good points imo, and are probably townie because of it.

Ohh hay look bullshit followed by a hammer.

Not shocked in the slightest eff whi eyee

If you're going to call my reads bullshit, explain why they're bullshit rather than just saying they're bullshit.

[Shinobi]

I asked for this yesterday, did she not cooperate? Nobody from her neighborhood is talking.

Also, I'm waiting for Spyrex to address the points I made last night. He basically just refused to talk for whatever reason.

[Shinobi]

vote: shinobi

wat

[Shinobi]

I asked for this yesterday, did she not cooperate? Nobody from her neighborhood is talking.

Also, I'm waiting for Spyrex to address the points I made last night. He basically just refused to talk for whatever reason.

Why did you hammer AGar after I requested another day or two to get access to a computer so I could make some meaningful posts?

You can contribute via neighborhood QTs; there's nothing that can be lost since there's always someone around to report it, unless you're somehow town and all three of the other people in your neighborhood are scum.

Which strikes me as

somewhat

unlikely.

[Shinobi]

That's a really shitty excuse to justify a really shitty hammer.

There's a bunch of voters that don't agree with you.

Also, I fail to see how it's shitty, aside from the fact that he flipped town.

[Shinobi]

Answer my questions first. Stop making excuses in order to not answer them.

And for the record, your analysis is a giant waste of time. You're not getting me lynched, especially since I rolled town.

Also, Marquis, what exactly is everyone voting Hoopla for? I feel like I'm out of the loop here.

[Shinobi]

You can contribute via neighborhood QTs; there's nothing that can be lost since there's always someone around to report it, unless you're somehow town and all three of the other people in your neighborhood are scum.

i used this reasoning to hammer bob before chamber asked because the day was already dragging on forever and it needed to end.

your hammer was premature.

I can understand this, to an extent. I felt like the neighborhood QTs would actually be super useful because I hadn't developed reads on any of the players in them, and anything that needed to be said could be said there and then brought here. I simply didn't think it would actually bother people as much as it did, which I can take responsibility for.

[Shinobi]

That's a good catch on MS by Shinobi.
I dunno if Agar is flipping scum to be honest. I would think he would self vote instead of ignoring the game.

OS, next time you're in the thread, I'd like an explanation behind this post.

Why didn't you post this at some point beforehand? You just kind of let it ride out and only posted after I hammered.

[Shinobi]

I don't understand. When did this swap happen? Was this a night action?

[Shinobi]

Dumb question, I'd assume that's the only way that works.

That's...really strange.

[Shinobi]

The issue is that you haven't given me a chance to deduce your alignment, sans hammer. You're intentionally dodging the questions I ask and then turning around and going "NONONONONO LOL." Following that up with saying "he isn't doing anything" is complete bullshit. All that does is make me think you're intentionally being difficult to figure out. You've twisted almost everything that I've tried to accomplish thus far, and your push is incredibly opportunistic. I've already got people breathing down my neck for "not doing anything," so posting a giant post about how I'm not doing anything isn't really some kind of super awesome analysis.

Even though I hammered the Agar wagon (which, I admit, was a rather poorly thought out move, fueled in part by my own frustration with yet another player refusing to play), there's nothing stopping you from engaging with me today and trying to figure things out. You have thus far refused to do so.

The sad thing is that I actually kind of agree with most of your reads, aside from MS being supertown and antihero being superscum.

Now please answer my questions.

P-Edit: I want to know if you can choose the players that you're redistributing. My issue was that you basically had full control over who went where, and we simply had no way of dictating how you used that power. I felt like having a reads list or somesuch posted would give us the ability to go for that "masonary" we were supposed to be shooting for early game, but as far as we know, you could have just put moles into every single neighborhood.

I feel like there's something you left out of the discussion of your role, and it's bugging me. Do you get the option of who you redistribute and where, or is that RNG'd by the host?

[Shinobi]

Has Hoopla ever given a list of her reads?

Having said that, why do you care about me answering this question when you literally in the same post said this:

And for the record, your analysis is a giant waste of time.

Because I'm town and getting people angry is not going to help us.

Otherwise, you're fine.

[Shinobi]

Angry at me, specifically.

I can understand that you have an issue with my slot being almost entirely inactive, but I am 100% willing to clear it up as much as possible. Now is the time to do so.

[Shinobi]

The issue is that you haven't given me a chance to deduce your alignment, sans hammer.

UMMM WONDER WHY

lel.

The thing is that coming out and immediately gunning for me looks the exact same way both ways.

Even though I hammered the Agar wagon (which, I admit, was a rather poorly thought out move, fueled in part by my own frustration with yet another player refusing to play), there's nothing stopping you from engaging with me today and trying to figure things out. You have thus far refused to do so.

I am trying to figure things out and I am engaging you. I wanted to get my analysis posted in the game thread though, so I have been doing that instead.[/quote]

Okay, let's engage. First things first, I want my last question answered. You actually went and addressed a ton of the things I wanted addressed, which is good.

Also, I still want an answer as to why the Hoopla wagon formed so quickly. Something happened in the QTs and I need to know what it is. All I'm getting is cake, and that doesn't really help me.

Though it may/may not be delicious.

P-Edit (again): Okay, so why did you move those players into those perspective neighborhoods?

[Shinobi]

Because I'm town and getting [

the town

angry at me] is not going to help us.

I don't know how you expect me to react when you:

1) ask me a bunch of questions, then hammer three hours later

Again, I didn't feel like this would be a huge issue. With the QTs around, unless you're the only town in your neighborhood, nothing is ever lost. I admit that the hammer was a mistake, one that I am 100% willing to take responsibility for, but dwelling on it and continuing to push the fact that I'm not doing anything is not going to help us.

2) ask me to go back and answer those questions then at the same time preemptively say:

And for the record, your analysis

on me

is a giant waste of time

3) Then have the gall to say I'm not trying to engage when it's you cutting down discussion. You hammered. You are the one saying my analysis is a waste of time. Don't put this on me.

I've already addressed some of this, but saying immediately coming out and gunning for me doesn't help either of us when we're supposed to be trying to figure each other out. This statement can go both ways.

[Shinobi]

It's not the worst idea in the world. It might be a day early though.

Also I still need your reasoning on why you moved those players into those neighborhoods.

[Shinobi]

I've already talked about why I moved chamber and Antihero to my neighbourhood. I didn't really care where AGar or your slot went because neither of them was really doing anything.

Okay, I see them. That makes sense.

Also, are we or are we not massclaiming? I thought that the plan was open for discussion.

[Shinobi]

Fair enough, I'm a one shot PGO.

[Shinobi]

It has to be activated.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: shinobi

Why?

I am curious about this myself.

Also, hell. I am alive.

[Shinobi]

Hello*.

Well that's an awful typo.

[Shinobi]

oh and also relating to 2 and 3, tell me just how bob claimed a power so very similar- almost identical- to your own if he didn't know your powers already to draw part of a fakeclaim from

I don't know. You'd have to ask Bob after the game why he claimed the role he did.

How about you answer something for me then. Why would I as scum then claim the ability to move people the next day? I would stay quiet about it.

Why is your defense wifom? Don't you have anything concrete to defend yourself with?

[Shinobi]

I asked for this yesterday, did she not cooperate? Nobody from her neighborhood is talking.

Also, I'm waiting for Spyrex to address the points I made last night. He basically just refused to talk for whatever reason.

"Whatever reason" being the fact that having a huge discussion about why you are scum is absolutely a waste of time there and the idea of I refused to talk is bullshit because equating refused to talk about this pile of stupid versus trying to parse out the game well.

But your biiiggg question about my posts between 2123:

So I thought about it some.

Invisible gives credence to ZZZX's role as much as it physically pains me.
I'm still not excited at all about the way hoopla did that yesterday but the sack makes me twitch.
Anti's town as fuck and oversoul is dumb.
I dont get EITHER side of the AGar business coming out of the gate today.

My reads this game are not good. Time for ol standby.

Unvote, Vote: Shinobi

and 2175:

Ohhhhh please tell me he just F'd up guys.

Is there anything in the neighborhood that would be after page 34. Anything at all.

Please god please

Sure, what do you want?

My issue with these posts is that they're completely disjointed. You go from "Idk what I'm doing," which is understandable, to, "this guy is fucking scum we need to lynch him immediately."

You go from clueless to total conviction based on nothing.

My reads are off, however that doesn't change that your lurksack slot is suspect. I still think the whole I'm catching up guys business is bunk and I'd love if there was proof before that post of anything in your reads that would be influenced by past page 34 at that point because you're lying.

But alas, that is not meant to be.

I fail to see what the problem is here. You began basing your scumread on me based on the fact that I may or may not have posted something in regards to my reads after I hit page 34. (I didn't, for the record.) I don't see how hitting this page and posting stuff in my neighborhood, which other players are perfectly capable of attesting to, are indicative of my alignment in any way.

In yet you pursue this non-read with total conviction. It doesn't make any sense.

But thats fine. Lets look down memory lane:

bv: did nothing. The useful contributions would be a vote for desp because "Also, finally read through enough. I think the thing that bugged me on the last post was Desp assuming that scum not only have daytalk, but daytalk and a private QT to use all the time. Willing to say it's null at the moment, but it's still bugging me. Comfortable with my vote right now." also known as moonbeams.

zivel:

This is bad play by ZZZX, calling omgus, flailing and seeing scum in everyone, no real reads and 'dog ate my read list'.
But I cant help but feel it is town, just a poorly played town.
I am still on the Vezok train here.
If this causes a no lynch then I will not be angry, just disappointed.

I had town reads on Bob and ZZZX, I am concerned that this is a TvT gladiator (is that the technical term of this?) Something about this doesn't feel right.

Hoopla, why did you choose Bob over the other lurkers in this game? We have had quite a few players lurking and you pulled Bob out of the hat? I see Bobs stuff as pro town.

ZZZX I understand, I thought he was a bit of a newb town but can see the scum point of view.

The idea that this cannot be used late in the game explains why Hoopla used it early, as surely this is something to be saved until you have more information. I definitely don't see this as a confirmation that Hoopla is town.

So as a choice between the two, I see ZZZX as the most likely to flip scum here:

VOTE: ZZZX

You: catchupcactchuplolhammer

====

Zivels is the telling set. I dont see that as being a bus so that flip makes for a clean hoop. Hoop, unlike my great compatriots, actually is trying to parse the bubble too so lets play along with the metal sonic townread. Looking at the other stuff:

Shinobi

chamber,

Antihero

Oversoul

,

farside

(had farside townier than this last night, but am starting to rethink this read in the last 24 hours)
SpyreX

Chamber I'm on the fence about but probably town. Anti and far are my only truly strong townreads at the moment - anti especially.

So, that leaves the morass at a parseable:
Oversoul
Desperado
Shinobi
Marquis

Shin-scum I'd ring a bell on Desp scum pretty hard. Marquis is a nonentity and oversoul has opted to mimic the rare dry land fish all too well.

I want to, today, really look at the competing ZZX/BOB wagons. Really hard. Help pleease.

I've got other comments, but after massclaim is done.

Unvote, Vote: Shinobi

Thankfully, you posted a similar reads post compared to the one you posted last night. My issue is that these aren't even really reads; nothing more than a list that a player from either alignment can replicate. A little more elaboration, at the very least, would be nice. The problem is that you've already posted your reads list before, so I really don't see you being able to assess why any of those people are town or scum, aside from maybe Hoopla.

And I think your Hoopla read is a bit too safe. By that, I mean it's almost entirely oriented in fact rather that trying to assess the method of her posting and the agenda she's trying to push, mostly so nobody has the opportunity to call you out for it later on. I want to see what you have to say in regards to her possible lynch today, because you haven't really done much aside from giving her a townread and then ignoring the lynch for the rest of the day.

Also, I want to know what you think "doesn't pan out."

I see that you have other comments lined up, and I'd really like to see what those are. I think the massclaim is pretty much done with at this point, so let's have it. I need some explanations.

Also, for the record, I hammered the guy you were voting. So shut up.

[Shinobi]

Everyone is claimed I thought? If not, Shinobi

dot dot dot

Were you going anywhere with this?

Also, did you answer my question or no?

[Shinobi]

Were you going anywhere with this?

Don't understand what this is about but I am checked out from this game so... yeah.

I thought you hadn't claimed

I don't know, I just thought that you had a thought and it was just incomplete or something.

Guess not.

[Shinobi]

Why is it that one of the swapees died on n1 and n2?

How exactly does your power work?

[Shinobi]

Two issues with your case:

1) My issue has nothing to do with the fact that you think I, specifically, am scum. My issues stem from the questions that I brought up earlier, which you have completely ignored and failed to answer. Your point about circular logic (which makes no sense unless you try to condense it the way you did) is bosh because, even if I were in any other slot this game, I would have the exact same problem with the way you've interacted with this slot.

2) Where did I imply that I did/didn't use my shot?

I'm not "1v1ing" you until you start addressing the points I brought up, both in this post and in the one I made before. I have far more important things to do than engage in a shouting match with someone that refuses to talk to me outside of his own bubble. And even then, I still feel like there are better ways to handle the rest of the day.

Though I will admit the rest of your post was actually quite good, despite the overabundance of lists.

[Shinobi]

I have a bad feeling about Hoopla's wagon now. She's giving a lot more effort than I would expect but damn it I am paranoid about her.

UNVOTE:
I don't even really have another suspect really anymore. My reads going into today were completely turned around.
I need to reread.

This is a horrible reason to unvote someone. Effort is not indicative of alignment.

My biggest issue with Hoopla right now, despite all of what Marquis brought to the table, is this:

Earlier in the thread, Hoopla posted that she had a townread on MS because of his daycop stunt, to the point where she was willing to bank the entire game on this read. Later on, during the forced roleclaim, MS claimed some of the neighborhood swaps. At this point, Desperado claimed that there was a role conflict between Hoopla and MS, so MS fullclaimed his role and claimed all of his swaps.

mmm, that's what i thought.

i don't think there's any conflict in our claimed actions, but all that really does is prove that Metal's abilities are what they say they are. ability doesn't prove alignment etc etc

All of a sudden, Hoopla is completely wishy-washy on her so-called "game breaking read." Why is this? Because of a role conflict that actually doesn't exist at all? This post is completely out-of-place, and imo, it's lynchworthy because she's reconsidering a possible lynch target for absolutely no reason.

The evidence completely contradicts the read she has given us at multiple intervals. I think that Hoopla messed up.

[Shinobi]

Two issues with your case:

1) My issue has nothing to do with the fact that you think I, specifically, am scum. My issues stem from the questions that I brought up earlier, which you have completely ignored and failed to answer. Your point about circular logic (which makes no sense unless you try to condense it the way you did) is bosh because, even if I were in any other slot this game, I would have the exact same problem with the way you've interacted with this slot.

2) Where did I imply that I did/didn't use my shot?

I'm not "1v1ing" you until you start addressing the points I brought up, both in this post and in the one I made before. I have far more important things to do than engage in a shouting match with someone that refuses to talk to me outside of his own bubble. And even then, I still feel like there are better ways to handle the rest of the day.

Though I will admit the rest of your post was actually quite good, despite the overabundance of lists.

1.) I'm ignoring nonsense. Its what I do.
But, for the sake of the crowd since my initial vote being a standby just seems to stick in the craws of the important people:
Voting for lurkaderp slot is a good placeholder. Always.
You coming in with throwaway jokes is when that stopped being a placeholder. Town are either going to catch up like real boys or say fuck it and get right into the party.
Add in a touch of lolhammer after that catchup post and Desp playing captain saveaho that day and I'm fine with this.

Or, like I'm going to hammer on over and over:

ZZZX(6): Bicephalous Bob, SpyreX, Shinobi, AGar, Marquis, Pine St

Who's the scum? Who is it. Because if you're gonna tell me that the ninja death star scum got gladiated with a full scum bus I've got a bridge to sell you.

2.) Well, you see, when you massclaim and don't claim a shot the implication is pretty crystal clear.

But you don't have to commit to a 1v1. You can do whaaatttever you want. It doesn't matter.

Its the others I need to help put a skull on the skull throne

1) No, it isn't nonsense. Answer my questions.
If your case really boils down to the fact that I was cracking jokes while I was catching up, then I fear that this conversation is a complete waste of time.

That

is nonsense.

2) No, I didn't give you any information either way. For all you know, my shot could've been used by one of the other lazy derps occupying this slot and I might have genuinely feared dying. Or maybe I was trying to make myself look like a juicier target for scum. You simply don't know either way, and I have no reason to post whether or not my shot is actually used or not since the whole point of a PGO is

not fucking dying.

If you believe there's a scum on the ZZZX wagon, yeah, I can get behind that. I actually posted that possibility in my neighborhood QT when I replaced in. The only thing I can tell you is that I can assure you that I'm not the scum on that wagon, and if you're going to ask me for reasons as to why my slot didn't vote for Bob, then I hate to tell you that I can't go back in time and telepathically figure out their thought processes.

[Shinobi]

You think my current scumread on Hoopla doesn't count for some reason?

Though I will admit I forgot to vote.

VOTE: Hoopla

[Shinobi]

I'm waiting for hoopla. One thing you stated was something that bothered me.

Nah, I'm still around. I have other stuff to do at times, you know.

There's stuff that doesn't really add up about her play but we're all going after the former lurker slot because jokes lol.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: Shinobi

Going back to old roots.
Effort is a good reason to unvote someone. Half of this game could be voted for lack of effort alone.
Scum lurk. It's a known fact.

I'm giving effort, and I'm not lurking.

The fuck.

[Shinobi]

Idgi.

[Shinobi]

Just an fyi, Hoopla already stated that she intends to vote me today. If we want today to keep going, I suggest someone unvotes so we can talk.

[Shinobi]

Good christ this wagon composition is giving me the willies something serious.

Spy: am I crazy think hoops scum here?

Yes and no.

Hoopla's done some strange things this game and I keep coming back to those with eyes raised.

However, I can't see why scum-hoopla uses the gladiator D2 on any partner, much less the one they did; because that in-turn pretty much double validated ZZZX and it wasn't like it shored up that slot forever in doing it. It just doesn't make sense and not in that carefully crafted scum machinations way.

Why do you think this? Hoopla already stated on day 1 that she had a way to confirm herself as town, and then put Bob up for no/bad reasons.

Do you or do you not have an issue with this?

[Shinobi]

You keep implying that you do, and then you say that you don't.

I still have no idea where you stand on this.

[Shinobi]

This game is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone...

[Shinobi]

Absolutely, but that would still require Hoopla to HAVE to put a scum up against ZZZX. Which doesn't make a lot of sense.

You keep implying that you do, and then you say that you don't.

I still have no idea where you stand on this.

Then you are literally not trying to look at what I'm saying.

If its difficult to see my stance on Hoopla by anyone else, sure I'll elucidate more.

No, I get what you're saying, it's just that what you're saying is contradictory when you simply have no evidence either way.

You say her play is scummy and nonsensical, which it is, but then you're turning around and townreading her because of mechanics that you simply have no way of understanding or figuring out on your own regardless. Hoopla might or might not be lying about her role, and you simply have no way of distinguishing between the two, in yet you're townreading her for information that is impossible for you to interpret.

[Shinobi]

All of a sudden, Hoopla is completely wishy-washy on her so-called "game breaking read." Why is this? Because of a role conflict that actually doesn't exist at all? This post is completely out-of-place, and imo, it's lynchworthy because she's reconsidering a possible lynch target for absolutely no reason.

I'm not wishy-washy on my towniest read. I was clearing up whether or not there was a conflict between our claimed actions - because if there was, that would override my read. But there wasn't, so I default back to my read. Kinda baffled how you could ever possibly read this as me "considering a lynch on Metal".

I don't see how you can turn around and go, "yeah this information doesn't prove anything, Metal could be scum," after you just had a hard townread on him.

[Shinobi]

Shin: you said this to hoopla.

The issue is that you haven't given me a chance to deduce your alignment, sans hammer. You're intentionally dodging the questions I ask and then turning around and going "NONONONONO LOL." Following that up with saying "he isn't doing anything" is complete bullshit. All that does is make me think you're intentionally being difficult to figure out. You've twisted almost everything that I've tried to accomplish thus far, and your push is incredibly opportunistic. I've already got people breathing down my neck for "not doing anything," so posting a giant post about how I'm not doing anything isn't really some kind of super awesome analysis.

Even though I hammered the Agar wagon (which, I admit, was a rather poorly thought out move, fueled in part by my own frustration with yet another player refusing to play), there's nothing stopping you from engaging with me today and trying to figure things out. You have thus far refused to do so.

The sad thing is that I actually kind of agree with most of your reads, aside from MS being supertown and antihero being superscum.

Now please answer my questions.

P-Edit: I want to know if you can choose the players that you're redistributing. My issue was that you basically had full control over who went where, and we simply had no way of dictating how you used that power. I felt like having a reads list or somesuch posted would give us the ability to go for that "masonary" we were supposed to be shooting for early game, but as far as we know, you could have just put moles into every single neighborhood.

I feel like there's something you left out of the discussion of your role, and it's bugging me. Do you get the option of who you redistribute and where, or is that RNG'd by the host?

Before this you stated this as your scum reads

TLDR: Farside is towny, Antihero is town as balls, Hoopla is scummy, MS is null, chamber is scummy. Agar is scummy and useless. ZZZX is towny. Desperado and ZZZX are making good points imo, and are probably townie because of it.

The only person on this list from hoop you agreed with was chamber.
Please explain.

I don't see what I have to explain here. Elaborate?

[Shinobi]

You stated agreeing with hoop's list but the only person listed as a scum read you noted was chamber.
Why did you agree with hoop's scum list?

Technically I don't.

It's really hard for me to explain, but the bottom line is I thought that her thoughts on MS and SpyreX were really fleshed out and made it hard to hate the post at the time, despite me disagreeing with those reads. In hindsight, it seems kinda silly that I didn't point out that she was essentially scumreading like half the game left for no reason.

I actually planned on pointing that out at one point, but I got hit with the lazy virus, so idk.

[Shinobi]

Still waiting to understand why you aren't pushing on oversoul

I think chamber/Shinobi are better options. I kinda think Oversoul's claim seems town. A useless role like that is more likely to be given to a townie, I think.

This is probably the most contrived read I've seen thus far. It's completely rooted in the fact that you think Oversoul has a nonsense role rather than trying to go through the method of his posting and deciding what kind of agenda he's pushing. I've already pointed out what I hated about some other Spyrex's 100% based in fact reads and how you can never be called out for it, and here's another one that I have a problem with.

The difference is that this post actually has a mafia mindset behind it. Oversoul's last couple of posts have been hardline against my slot, so I'm thinking that Hoopla only gave him a townread because OS is doing exactly what she wants him to do. Farside already brought up Hoopla's reads list, and her stance on OS hasn't really changed much at all, despite his last couple of posts.

From post #2342:

[red]

Scum

[/red]
Shinobi
chamber, Antihero
Oversoul, farside (had farside townier than this last night, but am starting to rethink this read in the last 24 hours)
SpyreX

From post #2606:

Cedar

Oversoul
[blue]SpyreX[/blue]
[green]vezok[/green]
[green]ZZZX[/green]

Farside kind of pointed this out already, but I don't think anyone realizes that her non-reads on MS and OS have been left so open to interpretation that she can basically change them whenever she feels like. Despite having Oversoul as a scumread, having him as town for something so utterly asinine (such as a not-role that essentially winds up useless) makes it easy to vote with him for the time being while he's doing what she wants him to do.

She never has to address his posts or how he's acting, so long as she comes up with some bullshit reason to townread someone.

[Shinobi]

Uhm, I messed up the colors in those quotes I think.

Does anyone know how to make them happen?

[Shinobi]

her posts in the neighborhood overnight and her play today are town and there's literally only one situation where she's scum and it gets less likely as time goes on.

What situation is that?

We've actually described it several times over, considering how her play isn't congruent and her actions don't make sense.

But it's not like it matters, you're too obstinate to actually listen to any kind of reason.

Or you're just mafia. Either/or.

[Shinobi]

Ohh hey I've got a little time tonight I'll go check the...

oh.

Farside, I beg of you as the voice of reason look at that wagon. Just LOOK at it.

Why Farside specifically?

[Shinobi]

That question was to desperado. Fuck off and let him answer it.

What do you even care what he thinks? He's one of your scumreads.

Seriously, I can't even make it any clearer how obvious this lynch should be. Hoopla has flat-out ignored our accusations, made an excuse, and went, "fuck it I'm voting this guy lewl."

It's the biggest scumclaim in the world. You're either stupid or mafia for not being able to see it.

[Shinobi]

Jesus christ he just answered a post with smarm that was literally, LITERALLY 180 degrees wrong.

If this is town I give up forever

What part of it was wrong?

You know, besides none of it. Seriously, it's a page ago. Go back and look.

[Shinobi]

Considering chamber is asking about the situation, and not the bolded part of the sentence that includes no situation, I was under the impression that chamber was asking about the unbolded.

[Shinobi]

ok

scum: hoopla/chamber?/anti/spyrex?

I understand Hoopla, I sort of understand chamber and spyrex, but...Antihero?

Why?

[Shinobi]

Yes, so whats that one situation

Or is it more hurbababurba the royal we totally have layed it out you guys

Ohh look at that pedit I feel hate bubbles all over

I think this is the point where you realize you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[Shinobi]

Well I'm town, and I'm not getting lynched, so I don't know what you're doing.

[Shinobi]

10 left, 3 scum.

If by chance shinobi AND hoopla are both town we've lost already.

I mean unless you think hoopla and I are scum together none of this makes a lot of sense but

Care to finish this thought?

[Shinobi]

I love you Spyrex.

[Shinobi]

Farside, I know you want more but it all boils down to the above

Uhm, no it doesn't. Read the thread plx.

[Shinobi]

That's kinda my job to do stuff at lynch time.

Which is more than I can say over several people here. -.-;

[Shinobi]

I'm here, kind of. Give me like a day or two to reorient myself because I'm kind of frustrated at the moment.

[Shinobi]

Shin, activate your PGO tonight if it is true. Maybe I'll kill myself on you.

Well okay, if you claim mafia and promise to try to kill me then I'll do it.

[Shinobi]

Ok. Activate it tonight.

Again, unless you claim mafia and promise to shoot me, then I'm not doing it.

[Shinobi]

In fact, I have every reason in the world to not activate it tonight.

If I die, everyone stops coming after me and I'm not a viable mislynch target tomorrow.
If I activate it and you're town and you impale yourself on me, we lose immediately.

This plan is suicide and I'm not doing it.

[Shinobi]

Prodded twice in one game.

Embarrassing.

[Shinobi]

The problem is that chamber is likely the scum^

Ah well force him to posture anyway; or of he's town we get genuine opinion so yea

Well like I said my top 2 are oversoul and shin so someone would be nice.
What do you think it should be anti for the lurking?

Oh, we lose.

Guess I'll go back to doing nothing then.

[Shinobi]

Seriously though, I need explanations for both of those reads because I don't see OS as scum at all.

[Shinobi]

Why couldn't you post like this all game?

[Shinobi]

Chamber: where do you stand on everyone? I need only one sane person I can talk to.

I liked desp's end of day activity yesterday. He and SpyreX both felt like they were on the same wavelength with me. His argument with you also felt quite genuine. I imagine he'd have some shame as scum that mislynched hoopla yesterday and be less offended by you blaming him.

Oversoul could be scum with shin, but he could easily be town that's just over thinking things. I would have been more willing to believe that if he had answered yes to my question initially. Him being delayed and then coming to a similar conclusion makes it harder to tell if it's genuine or not. It's also a little less crazy, and I think town are more likely to make crazy leaps. All in all I don't think he's the lynch for today.

The Spyre night kill really does point at Shin scum. I just don't think making kills with the intent of framing is usually worth it. Spyre would have come in today with undying rage trying to get Shin lynched.

I think there is a decent chance MS pushing for me yesterday at the end was calculated to force a hoopla lynch without being on it. I believe your reason for not being around, but there is already too much other stuff on his plate. There is a limit to how much benefit of the doubt I can give his incompetence.

Antihero/Marquis is a toss up for me. Both have been incredibly absent. I don't think I have anything new to say about them.



If we are lynching today I really think it should be on shin and any votes that are on anyone else truly confuse me.

This is mostly WIFOM. Farside and Spyrex were/are both universally townread, so saying that either one of these two getting shot over the other for any reason in particular is silly. I'm pretty sure almost anyone in the game could've been shot and the same argument could be made, twisted words or no.

Also, the one thing I really don't like about this scenario is that despite being near universally scumread, only like 1 or 2 players have actually pressured me. I can't emphasize how uneasy that should make the towns left in this game about actually voting me, because it definitely feels like I'm being set up.

The thing with MS is something I was looking into. His last set of posts was actually pretty good, IE actively laying out plans, trying to solve the game etc. My issue is that this is the first time he has tried to take control of the game thus far, so I'm not sure if it's just because he's close to the win or if he's desperate. His chamber vote was really off-the-wall and it's not really consistent with what he's trying to do now, so idk.

Also:

Desp, how do you feel about oversoul as a whole and why?

i can't read oversoul. he's either scum because there's 1 scum in every neighborhood or he's town because his hood was all town.

Translation: Oversoul is either town or scum.

ggnore 10/10

[Shinobi]

Because it made me giggle.

It was so meaningless.

[Shinobi]

...No?

[Shinobi]

Town, tentatively.

He seems to be one of the few people to go within reasonable lengths of pressuring his suspects/trying to bring in information from outside the thread to try to make sense of things. My only issue is that he's asking a bunch of open-ended questions that don't really accomplish a whole lot, but I think that's negated by the fact that he's doing actual things beyond that.

[Shinobi]

You know I'm looking at today and I have no idea who shin is scum reading.
I've noticed a few pot shots, but see no figuring players out. Just attack those that attack him

Are you reading the thread?

[Shinobi]

i can understand your trepidation regarding me finally being good

VOTE: antihero

I don't think this is enough of an answer. Saying "okay I'm good now" isn't going to send the message that "everything is fine you can trust me now."

Antihero is a really easy target because he isn't doing anything. That's my biggest concern: it's a really opportunistic push. You've been lackadaisical almost all game, and I don't understand how you can just come out of the woodwork and tell us to lynch who you want us to lynch, much less a lurker of all things.

You're just accepting the fact that I'm skeptical of you and your response is to just go "yeah, I know." That doesn't actually make me very confident.

[Shinobi]

Why couldn't you post like this all game?

I'd like an explanation of why. There are some post I saw you questioning oversoul's behavoir. Where did this town read come from?

Finally I looked at you post and your last scum list was chamber and ms but it don't know if that still stand, if so why?

I'll explain my current reads as soon as it's not 4 AM.

[Shinobi]

I don't get why I'm so universally scumread with only one person giving a shit in regards to figuring me out.

Why are we all okay with this? Talk to me, people. I'm an open book. Hit me.

[Shinobi]

@Chamber: Why am I scum? All you've said about me thus far is that the nightkill points to me, and you haven't really stated anything else in regards to my play or how I've been interacting with people and whatnot. Explain.

@Farside: Why is it that my interaction with Oversoul is fake? You said that it is, but you haven't really elaborated on why. Also, I don't know why you expect me to instantly understand and give a solid read on MS based on his actions today. I've said he was scummy for most of this game thus far, especially since his most recent scumread was on that of a guy who was never even around ever. His only strong posts of the game came in at the start and at the end, and he coasted up until right now. I don't understand how you have him as a strong townread.

@Antihero: Why is it that the hate-wagon against you is particularly scum-motivated? Do you think that any of those people have any legitimate issues with you? I thought you were towny throughout most of this game, but you've disappeared throughout most of yesterday and weren't around at deadline when you said you would. Your read on me changed and all you've said about it was that it was bullshit. Why?

@Oversoul: Why is Antihero scum? I actually remember talking about this earlier in the game, but I didn't have a problem with the way he handled the Bob wagon. Give us more reasoning. I need to know more about your thoughts in regards to him.

We have so many scumreads but everyone refuses to elaborate. I'm probably going to reread today and post my reads afterwards.

Also, I will point out that the number of people gunning for Antihero is making me nervous. I can kind of see what he means, but I want to know what he actually thinks of the reasoning everyone else is using to come after him.

[Shinobi]

Definitely not comfortable lynching today, btw.

[Shinobi]

That was a really good post.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: Antihero

[Shinobi]

if u are scum u are going to be autoscumread in my future games with you^

Uhm.

[Shinobi]

That was the longest 30 minutes ever.

Also, lol at Hoopla lynch. I'm surprised we won this game. I figured that chamber and I were really obvious. When I replaced in, I thought I would get speedlynched. The gladiate was so gamebreaking and town just did nothing with it.

I've got some thoughts that I might post when I get on my computer.

[Shinobi]

I'm really curious about what Reck would say about us, tbh. This was the first time I rolled scum on the site and I'm not sure how I would've played differently. I know I got lucky that people thought I was new to mafia (lol) but it really looked like I was going to get lynched at so many points because the people that came before me clearly didn't care about their play. Also, I'm always one for criticism because I'm obsessed with getting better. >.>

Scum got really, really lucky at several points. Seriously, the gladiate was so fucking crazy. You guys basically had a hitlist of who to lynch and you could've isped and lynched every single person who didn't vote Bob. Even then, Spyrex was universally townread, so I don't know what town was doing because they had all the information in the world with that lynch. I took one look at this game and realized how unbelievably boned I was, and I figured I would be forced to speedlynch Agar just to do something with my slot. If he didn't martyr so hard...I don't know. Town got really mad at him for giving up like that.

[Shinobi]

The neighborhood mechanic is really strong for scum, and the Hoopla lynch wouldn't have happened without it. It gives mafia an excuse to buddy people in their neighborhoods, and it ends up naturally sectioning off parts of the game into groups if people don't think about scum actually being in their neighborhoods. By the end of the game, even though a whole lot of people didn't really trust him, Marquis had half the town in his pocket and nobody thought anything of it.

The wiretap mechanic would be really strong in the hands of a capable town analyst. Town lost something really awesome when vezok died, because having an unbiased eye looking through the peephole could've changed things pretty dramatically. The Hoopla lynch might not have happened if vezok happened to be looking into that neighborhood, but I really don't know. Inventor is always a strong role and we lucked out shooting Majiffy when we did.

Definitely a setup I'd be willing to play more, the ideas behind it are awesome.

[Shinobi]

Re: the hoopla lynch

Marquis manipulated me and farside into doing that, sorry. I thought we were a 3 man mason team (read: mafia of the quickness) and that was a giant mistake

There was a 'scum' in our mason team and that led to damning conclusions


Sorry for my play early game it was prettyy shitty. I think. Was kinda lazy for the marquis thing I think nobody had him as scum late game yeah

Our team came to the same conclusion. Nobody know what to make of Marquis, but nobody really seemed to care either. So chamber and I just wound up soaking up all the heat and the spotlight and Marquis went and did his thing.

And somehow it worked. Spyrex simply never made the argument he needed to make to lynch me, so I basically just hung out and did whatever. He was spot-on about the earlier stuff a la Zivel, but he never connected any of my actions with the actions from the prior slot so I was free to wiggle my way out of that near-lynch. The only reason we even shot him in the end was because we wanted town to be disorganized. Farside was the closest town had to a leader, but she was too inquisitive/uncertain and didn't hold her scumreads accountable for anything.

Also:

Sorry for draining the energy from this game, I always feel guilty when I win that way.

Your quote about committing was hilarious.

[Shinobi]

Also will point out that daytalk in the neighborhoods really only works if scum is dumb enough to try to use it, since town simply has nothing to hide and just posts in the main thread when they get the chance.

Catching someone trying to bounce scumreads off of players in private should be condemnable by death. Sure, context matters, but town simply gains nothing from having private daytalk unless all of the people in those neighborhoods are confirmed town one way or another. Even if all of those people trust each other, they're still going to post mainly in the thread since they don't gain a lot from hiding information like the mafia does.

The concept behind sectioned daytalk really just gives scum a chance to incriminate themselves by trying and is nothing more than a waste of time/a detriment for town. Town wants more information in the thread and scum doesn't, so town ultimately gains little and scum doesn't want to be obvious.

Example: Oversoul was pressuring me and didn't tell anyone about it. We ended up looking like buddies and he was incriminated because he didn't tell town about what was going on. Just a taste of how detrimental that kind of power can actually be for town, because I certainly wasn't telling anyone about what was going on behind the scenes.

[Shinobi]

i slightly disagree

Why?

[Shinobi]

Yeah, that's the problem. Town can't really work an agenda behind the scenes because it just paints them as targets. Scum are the only ones who really benefit from working private daychat, and even then, a good town will just punish them by immediately calling them out for it.

Your plan would work best if you were active and asked the right questions during the night sequence, but even then, that defeats the purpose of daychat neighborhoods anyway.