Serum & Steel 2: The Rise of Phyrexia--Endgame

[massive]

VOTE: Pander Bears

What's the point of having RVS if nobody RVs?

[massive]

For instance, look at Trustworthy. I have absolutely no gameplay reason to think they are town. Yet, I'm 99% sure they are town. Definitely sure enough where I won't be lynching or synthing them today. Where did I go wrong?

Not so much interested in why Titus is reading Trustworthy as town, as I am in why Chandra accepts it carte blanche:

I'll take your word for it.

Mastin does it in #227 too. You guys must really play with each other a lot.

and the fact that i've got haters is telling me i'm on the right track.

Do you think scum would openly defend their buddies or do you think townies are more likely dumb than not?

Not sure why this has to be one or the other, as if dumb scum don't exist.

P-Edit: Sarnath'ed.

I like the idea of lynching hydras.

[massive]

Because I am old and rusty and it's hard enough getting a read on a single person, let alone one who is actually multiple people. It's like having someone replace back and forth every six hours.

[massive]

I wasn't taking her word for Trustworthy being town. I believe it was a reference to something regarding the issue of whether I should serum Titus or not.

That's not how I read it. The post immediately before you say "I'll take your word for it" is:

@Chandra regarding 136. If you know, you know. If you don't. You don't. Explaining is beyond antitown. Trustworthy is playing suboptimally but they are town. It's something we just know.

and Titus references you directly. Post 136 doesn't have anything to do with serum, either.

[massive]

Post 136 doesn't have anything to do with serum, either.

I take that back. It does, but very minorly, and nothing about serum and Titus.

I worry about the use of the word "hive" by people.

The M15 prerelease is happening this weekend.

Ugh, don't remind me. I volunteered to help my wife at a big conference this weekend, not realizing that the PR was this weekend. Gonna have to try for a Launch Party.

[massive]

Phantom's rolefishing in #513 is icky.

Magister Ludi

: If you're going to scumread Titus for "low-hanging fruit" in #514, why not Pander Bears for voting me? Because I'm pretty sure that's how Pander sees me.

And if you all are going to add ten pages overnight every single day, most of what I want to say in the first page will be said by the third page.

[massive]

@Massive, how is 513 a rolefish? I don't see it.

If enough people (a) believe you and Trustworthy are paired and (b) believe that you and Trustworthy trust each other implicitly, then what purpose does asking to confirm the format of the role PM serve?

Are you calling yourself a weak player town player abused by scum pander?

No; I'm saying that Pander sees my perceived lack of activity and my current posts, and thinks he can make an easy case on me. I'm not saying I actually AM low-hanging fruit.

1. Latches and holds onto one suspect. (possibly OMGUS)

See I see this as town (see Antihero). I always think that scum can't afford to waste their vote someplace that might end up getting no traction. Why do you see this as a potential scum attribute?

[massive]

In post 559, massive wrote:
No; I'm saying that Pander sees my perceived lack of activity and my current posts, and thinks he can make an easy case on me. I'm not saying I actually AM low-hanging fruit.

We're making a case on you because we think your play has been scummy. Your only defence thus far has been that we're looking for low hanging fruit. You hadn't been brought up much if at all before we made a case on you and I'd say there were much easier cases to make on others. You are also basically admitting that your play sucks at this point here...

This really chafes me. Nowhere in my post do I say that I am playing poorly, or that I think I suck. I say YOU think I suck, which is not the same thing. Trying to represent me as "agreeing with you" is really in poor form.

(And you keep saying "we" -- I presume because you're a hydra -- but it's really just one person making this argument. And you do this a lot, almost as a way to make it seem like you have validation from outside your hydra.)

After a couple posts, he stops again and over 200 posts later, we get this one. Again, not really much. Calling something rolefishing, bitching about us coming after him and complaining about game length.

Yeah, this isn't because I'm not scumhunting, it's because you guys are putting in ten pages every night when I'm not here. Good idea, though, using post count and not actual time, to make it seem more relevant.

---

The Sword of Kaldra is an interesting ability.

PeregrineV

,

Chandra Nalaar

,

vezok

-- is it worth talking about what ELSE the Sword of Kaldra does?

In any event -- without speculating too far on fake claims, the Sword is definitely not an ability that scum would get. Sets the abilities come from don't appear to matter -- my serum ability is from Original Mirrodin Block as well.

[massive]

FWIW my card also is basically an upgraded homage to old Mirrodin. But it came from the Scars Block

BTW THIS screams "Phyrexian upgrade" -- like Blightsteel Colossus -- to me:

->

which would make it a really good idea to proceed with

Synth: Lord Mhork

[massive]

You realize half of Scars in an homage to old Mirrodin, right? Are you scum or just dumb?

Thanks for attacking the player and not the argument. Almost all of Scars is an homage to Mirrodin ... and by the time you get to New Phyrexia, I'd say WELL more than half of it is "upgraded" versions as the Phyrexian oil takes over the plane. The key word that triggers for me is not "homage" but "upgraded," since that's pretty much exactly what the Phyrexians do as they take over lifeforms.

Why the fuck would Mhork ever say that? "Yeah my card is an upgraded version of a mirrodin card" if the only possible upgrade was a Phyrexian upgrade? Clearly, either Phyrexian doesn't make him scum, or his {claim/fakeclaim} is a non Phyrexian upgrade. Why is this page filled with people assuming everyone else is a complete moron? Are we level 1 players now?

Well, we've already had a number of people state that they have no idea of the flavor of the sets, and people who are pretty clearly saying that they don't have any interest in reading up on that flavor. Flavor is one aspect of this particular game that I do know, and so I'm trying to make sure that weird flavor things don't just go unobserved.

[massive]

pixel

: When you say in 890 (and I guess in 539) that I "set a course" following ABR's stated desire to lynch hydras, I imagine that includes my vote on Pander Bears?

[massive]

Internet outage at the hotel yesterday plus drive back home today and my eyes are crossing. I made it to P49 and will be back tomorrow. I'm OK with

Serum: Antihero

if I haven't up to this point. Remember we should decide serum / synth before lynching.

[massive]

Kagami, #1078: Mastin's claim as a possible fake cover for Glissa the Traitor at least makes some sense flavorwise, but Mastin fake-claiming Glissa (a role likely to be in the game) to cover for a metal role makes no sense to me. Do you think Mastin is also fake-claiming her ability? (Mastin notes something similar in 1085, Chandra in #1131, which move them towards town for me.)

Trustworthy, #1111: Synthing an unknown target doesn't hurt the town, so why avoid it?

Kagami, #1150: "Metal town are unkillable by one set of scum and exclusively killable by another one." Not sure when Kagami went from "it's likely there's a mechanic like in the first one" to being quite so completely positive it exists -- especially when it's supposed to be me. More likely it's Kagami.

Mastin, #1202: Why did it matter to you whether Chandra responds to Muffinman or not?

Pander Bears, #1210: "So are you in the boat of let's just lynch hydras even if there might be a better lynch? That's what I'm getting from this and your earlier post about liking the idea of lynching hydras." Considering my vote on you was a random vote from post #7 and I specifically asked Pixel about it to see if they would try and associate it with my "stance" on lynching hydras, I'm kinda glad they didn't and you did.

Magister Ludi, #1305: I see no reason to defend Pander Bears like this, and I definitely don't think I'd throw Pander Bears in "town" because of who was voting him.

[massive]

Pander Bears, #1210: "So are you in the boat of let's just lynch hydras even if there might be a better lynch? That's what I'm getting from this and your earlier post about liking the idea of lynching hydras." Considering my vote on you was a random vote from post #7 and I specifically asked Pixel about it to see if they would try and associate it with my "stance" on lynching hydras, I'm kinda glad they didn't and you did.

We haven't brought up your RVS vote, you literally said out right that you like the idea of lynching hydras :/ I don't understand what you're getting at here?

That while I did agree with ABR's idea of lynching hydras, that YOU are the one who keeps giving it momentum, and that while I am voting for a hydra, it's impossible to connect it to my comment agreeing with ABR, but that's what you attempted to do in 1210.

I'm not voting for you because you're a hydra. I'm voting for you because you're scum.

[massive]

kagami

: I have not read the first game sooooooo ... now that I'm roughly caught up in this game, maybe I'll take the time to go back and read the old one.

[massive]

The way zMuffinman is campaigning for serum makes me think he just doesn't want synth.

[massive]

unsynth, synth Magister Ludi

I realize I can't have it both ways (ie, Ludi and Pander are unlikely to BOTH be scum) but Ludi's reasoning for a town read on Pander Bears can't even be bothered by reading anything Pander Bears wrote ... so yeah.

[massive]

Going back through the thread and trying to hit everyone. Depending on how busy my day gets, I might not make it through everyone (especially since I appear to be starting with lighter posters and still have Mastin / Chandra / T+T to look at) but here's a good start.

Pander Bears(DeasVail+BipolarChemist)

Spends the first eight posts defending from his serum own-vote, trying to convince people it's a null tell. Wait, it's not even his own-vote, it's vezok's? Bizarre. In 269 when responding to Phantom's vote, they skip over the own-vote defense and respond to other parts. 606 reads "We're making a case on you because we think your play has been scummy" and really the case presented has been "he agreed with ABR on the hydra thing." Still irritated that he tries to make "stops for 200 posts" and "complains about game length" into arguments for being scummy in 608. 610 says I "liked the idea of [lynching] hydras at a time when it was 'cool' to like the idea of lynching hydras" and that's being rather generous to two people who said they could lynch hydras. 898: I'm pretty sure discrediting you IS scumhunting, since I'm pretty sure you're scum. And finally:

My point is that while you may not be able to distinguish between my genuine town posting and my 'genuine' scum posting, someone else may be able to.

If you were town, why would we need to?

Tattletale

Good points in 385. ISO 10-13 don't do anything. 1592 - ABR -did- ignore your question about me, and honestly I'm curious too.

Probably needs more data.

Lord Mhork

286 - does he townread Chandra as a buddy move? 712 - I may miss the total reference but isn't Sirius Black a good guy? 715 - The flavor stuff against Mastin's claim is baloney, but need to see who actually started the traitor stuff (in the storyline, "The Traitor" is essentially a misinformation campaign started before she becomes corrupted). That being said, 734 is correct, and nothing up to that point should have led anyone to seruming Mastin. 737 - Vig is a logical inference from looking at the card. Pulling color into it is pretty irrelevant and definitely non-indicative. 844 strikes me as really weird, mostly because the examples Mhork pulls, while accurate for Magic, don't strike me as accurate possibilities for this game. But this is backed by really limited information. I like 878. Still Chandra's biggest fan.

sharpest-knife-on-tree

Would have been easy to bail on his position on self-seruming, but didn't. Voting pattern in ISO looks REALLY random, but I think I vote-move less than the average person, so I might be putting my own emphasis on it. 1410 - votes Phantom, is derided for it, unvotes, notes in his 1360 list of reads that town sees Phantom as town but doesn't know why, so not sure why here he seems surprised that Trustworthy is viewing Phantom as town.

Kagami

The only thing I don't like about the flavor thought process about Mastin's potential "fake claim" is that it means both regular Glissa AND the Sword of Kaldra have to be out of the game. Despite what you can say about Glissa eventually becoming corrupted, the Sword itself would not be a scum ability. 786 - need to remember Kagami has an ability of a color different than her ID card (and seems to know enough about Magic to not confuse colors with colorless?) 1150 - Kagami clearly read Serum and Steel 1 (as to have knowledge of the Ravager) so she should know that no information is provided about the synth (or, at least, wasn't in that game), so it's hard to imagine synth as a "soft investigation." Still not sure she couldn't be a Ravager-type, as the first to bring up the possibility AND already synthing someone who is stated-ly non-metal.

[massive]

Mhork

: :/

Continuing and then out for lunch for a bit:

PeregrineV

ISO 21-26 - This bit surrounding Pixel is a mess, but probably need to put that info into the Pixel section. Gotta watch going forward for the PV-Mastin connection. Beyond that, I don't really see much about PV that stands out one way or the other. Lots of flavor discussion. Not a horrible lot of much more.

zMuffinMan

60 - Logical conclusion on synth / lynch but only because I hadn't read S&S1 and didn't know we can't do this. Doesn't mean it isn't logical. 573 says Mastin is emotionless and since I have actually read this thread, I can't imagine this is true, so it must be before the first explosion? (no, it's not) At this point, I feel like anyone claiming town for Muffin must be doing it for meta reasons because I actually don't have any idea where he is. I do kinda like his serum push because I feel the same way about my ability and might be pushing for serum if it wasn't a better mid-game ability. The pickup of stuff with Chandra reads like someone who truly believes their position, whether they're right or wrong. 1327 pointing at Chandra's 1312 made me go and read a bunch of stuff I agreed with. The "blatant counter wagon" is obviously because Chandra wants to give it to ANY ONE but Muffin, and it reads as such, so I'm not sure why Muffin is harping on it.

What I think MOST about Muffin is that he seems CONSISTENT, which seems town.

[massive]

I have a pretty good idea.

[massive]

Wanted to get this in before kicking off for the day. About half-done but STILL I have to look at Mastin, Chandra, T&T which are biggies.

Vezokpiraka

322 is wha huh? I don't know how you can have an ability that doesn't require serum but only be 90% sure of it. Looking at S&S1, the non-serum roles were pretty clearly spelled out. 558 reading Ludi as strong town is hopefully just cheeky. 680 is where the "Mastin as traitor" idea comes from. Why does Vezok, assuming that Mastin is actually Glissa the Traitor rather than Glissa Original Flavor, immediately assume she's the SK? Common sense would say Phyrexian = scum. 683 is then the traitor idea, and there's some unclear posts by vezok regarding the other game in 684 and 685 which were never fleshed out. There's nothing between 680 and 685 except Mastin-posts, so I'm still not sure why Vezok is so bent on complicating things. If Mastin is lying, then isn't the easiest answer "she's scum" and not to have a bunch of exceptional requirements to test out? In fact, he says he knows the flavor in 699 and confirms the facts and the likely villains in 784. My guess would be he knows she's not Phyrexian but is feeling out whether or not she is a possible traitor for him to recruit. Vezok is quickly becoming a top scum candidate to me. The fact that Pander Bears was all about defending Vezok's self-serum early on isn't a bad link either.

Thinking more about the Sword of Kaldra, I actually think it might be more useful than just a vig kill.

pixel(fferyllt+Kazekirimaru)

86 I want to remember, not because it's a scummy post from pixel, but because it quotes Antihero saying he'd accept a vote on pixel despite pixel having posted exactly SEVEN words in the thread at that time. Not phrases, not sentences, WORDS. Not sure how Anti got there. 215, 236 sees something regarding Chandra, 253 considers a metadive. Did this ever come to anything? By 276 has left Chandra and is on Trustworthy, so I guess not. 305 quotes PV's 295 which agrees with Anti's read on pixel. Yes, the seven-word read. ISO 53-61 are such a mess -- it starts with voting me but turns into SKOT discussion, and pixel notes that SKOT is one of their strongest scum reads (589) -- so it seems like the vote on me is to get a reaction from SKOT? No real good reasoning is given here, but the vote stays on me. 659 pixel notes that somewhere in that mess was the desire to have SKOT respond to the SKOT vote which was ... in post 219. 760 admits to being a black card. 1340 - and it was, but pixel and Pander Bears were the ones to pick up that one sentence and run with it, so why not see if one of them is willing to assume it was a bad vote and not go back and actually look? 1549 and the rest of today, reads a bit more town to me. Admitting to sheep-desire but narrowing down the candidates makes it at least seem that they aren't willing to just jump in bed with any random target.

So from today:

Pander Bears : Scum
Tattletale : Lean Town
Lord Mhork : Lean Town
SKOT : Would Like More Info
Kagami : Lean SK
PeregrineV : Unsure Why He's Seen As Town, But Null
zMuffinMan : Lean Town
Vezokpiraka : Lean Scum
pixel : Lean Town

[massive]

Is this massive guy for real?

Or are you just incredibly scummy and want to see how much you can survive that way?

synth massive

Hrm, yes, here it is, JEEP's Scum Tells Appendix A, "one identifier of scum is that they are more likely to attack a player rather than the arguments they put forward."

[massive]

Yes, I was being cheeky in any event.

[massive]

SKOT

, nothing else to add other than that?

[massive]

I'm from here, I'm just from 2005-6 here, not 2013 here. Holy cats 2014 here.

[massive]

EBWOP

synth Pander

. I'm happy to vote Ludi but I think we need more synth votes. Antihero should be serumed up.

[massive]

unvote, vote Magister Ludi

[massive]

unvote, vote Magister Ludi

I'm thinking about all the reasons I don't want to vote yet.

Why are you ready to end the game day?

Totally misread the hammer question. Definitely want to synth someone today so [

unvote

.

[massive]

Actually, F16, it was you that prompted me to go back and actually start figuring out this game. I am still remembering how I used to play this game, and while I can skate through Minis without needing too many notes, Day 1 I got to a point where I either had to start writing stuff down, or just give up. And while there have been plenty of apathetic players coming in and out of the game, I'm not that kind of guy. You came in and it immediately seemed like you were trying to make sense of the huge number of posts that had already happened; I had been here for them and was feeling a little shown up. I have more work to do myself but I at least now feel like I have an idea about who most players are and where I think they fall in the town-scum line.

[massive]

Your analysis occured quite a while after I replaced in though. Also, it seems like you stopped once the lynch direction seemed set it stone. Why did you stop?

Combination of busy at work and preparing to be away from home for the next six weeks.

[massive]

If I have no concept of what Muffin's reputation is, can I vote him?

[massive]

Is that really what it says in the "neighbor" QT? I would have thought you guys would have had time to come up with something more ... flashy.

Mastin

: I like you. But the way you keep saying MASSIVELY, in all capital letters, is freaking me out.

[massive]

i would like to hear massive's opinion on bussing, because he doesn't seem willing to do it and his scum buddies don't want to bus him so it's putting me in an inconvenient spot here (where i need to spread mist because titus is very observant and good at getting reads)

I have a lot of experience bussing. I took the bus to school exclusively from 1978-1990. And two years ago I learned the bus system in Rome which, let me tell you, is no simple feat.

I don't like how Pander Bears has disappeared in all of this nonsense. Can we please remember that we should synth

someone

before deadline? And if that's not going to be Pander Bears, can we determine who that is going to be?

[massive]

ABR actually has eight (vezok votes after the vote count).

It will be really obnoxious if everyone who is being obnoxious in this game is doing so because they're metal.

And Kagami, even if it wasn't stated explicitly in THIS game thread that we don't get any idea whether synth removed metal or not, it WAS explicitly stated in S&S1. You can say "there might be some indication in the flavor posts" but ... there isn't.

[massive]

Of course I'm coasting. I was very content with my Pander Bears vote and still should be there, but you guys switched from middle-of-the-day meta-tell-analysis to nearing-deadline bandwagon surges, and it's just one wave after another. Where the conversation in the middle had a bunch of things to actually read about and ponder, the last two or three days have just been one swell of voting and then expiring as new bandwagons form. Most of the "conversation" has been of the "why aren't you following my lead, I obviously know better than you" variety. I don't feel the need to be that way.

Are you sore because I chose to move to Ludi's wagon instead of Chandra's?

[massive]

why are you voting me?

I was content voting for one of you and synthing the other; as your bandwagon picked up steam I swapped to voting you and synthing Pander. Right now it's mostly an artifact of your failed train. Honestly I'd rather move it back to Pander but evidently we can't synth and vote the same person, and we need the synth to go through.

Mephidross Vampire, MTG-wise, is a creature that turns your other guys into Vampires. Assuming a true claim: Probably not metal, probably not Phyrexian.

[massive]

Just in case it was lost on people, I am not metal so synthing me will do nothing.

I find massive's reasoning pretty questionable. I outlined the part where you don't think me and pander are both scum, (and I didn't see anything when I posted to indicate otherwise), and now you seem to think we are both scum together (in actuality it look like you were just hopping on my wagon and now are back justifying the fact). In addition if you thought I was town and you were ALSO town synthing me would be a really bad move.

I don't find you town. I don't feel like you've done ANYTHING productive today. The Titus push was poorly-informed and poorly-done. You complain about synth-training (1486) and then come back around on how we need to hurry up and sort out who we're synthing (1626). I was content to jump to your bandwagon because you were being obnoxious when faced with likely lynching (starting at 1699 or so). And your "case" on Kagami is essentially what I said in 1609.

[massive]

Just answering as I go.

was that a scum trait ten years ago? (serious question: i want to know why you think this is more likely to come from scum than town)

Yeah, we didn't have years upon years of theory to read up on, so things like "attack the person, not the argument" and such, while cliche now, were verbatim scum tells back then. There was no "counter-meta" or whatever you guys call what you're doing now. We didn't play the players, or, at least, not as much as the game itself. Now, it definitely seems like meta is way more prevalent a discussion topic.

[massive]

1697-1721 (?) or so, then also 1802. *shrug* The problem is, no matter what I say here, there's plenty of counterexamples in this thread alone now that make it less singular. But it's not like Mastin v. Mhork, as those were specific and targetted at each other -- Ludi's was just lashing out at anyone without bothering to actually seem like he cared. No discussion of why people were voting him, no alternate train, no indication that he's got anything going other than personal attacks. He's not looking for reactions, he's just giving up. Is that town?

I think, if there's one thing I'm learning this game, it's that aggressive trolling and swearing is a legitimate gameplay method now?

[massive]

if i were to look through games you've played in the past, would i see: (a) scum behaving like that? and (b) you thinking players behaving like that are scum?

I have no idea. It was ten years ago. Is a meta from ten years ago even valid still? That would be an interesting conversation to have.

unsynth, synth ABR; unvote, vote Pander Bears

[massive]

Muffin

: I have no answer for you. I'm still finding my feet now that I've come back; I couldn't tell you how I played in the past. My guess would be "probably" because I didn't develop this aversion to obnoxiosity in the last three weeks or so.

[massive]

I think the scum are on my and Panders' bandwagons.

Considering that 16 of the 20 of us are on one or the other, and you're both on each others, doesn't that almost have to be true no matter what?

[massive]

Magic flavor is something I can at least expound on.

Inkmoth is a corrupted Blinkmoth. That's probably the best way to explain it.

#2485:

Trustworthy

, in the original S&S the fakeclaims were different cards. I would think a cardcop would get fairly trustworthy results. Heh! Blinkmoth isn't a far stretch from Inkmoth (especially if you know the game) and it was also the serum-giver in S&S Original Flavor.

Watermarks : For cards inside this block, the watermark is a pretty good indicator. At least one person has claimed a card outside this block (mastin) and Blinkmoth is from original Mirrodin as well, so it might not be a complete catch-all, but it's a good start. (Hum, note Chandra also just claimed older card.)

Angels in Mirrodin : In Scars block, there are 5 and it's split 3/2. There's no iconic angel from Scars. There is an iconic angel in Mirrodin and if it's in the game, it's town. All told, though, they are quite uncommon in Mirrodin. And the one you're thinking of would be town, too.

Black cards : Figured there had to be a color cop since we all have colors, and figured there had to be red herrings to not just have us round up the black cards and lynch them all. (Phyrexians primarily are black.) ABR was the red herring so pixel, who claimed another black card, jumps up my suspicious list.

----

vezok asking for muffin's card in #2558 is HORRIBLE and untrue. I already figured out enough from the muffin / antihero discussion to know that muffin's town, and I should start voting for vezok. And so I did.

vote: vezok

[massive]

#2485:

Trustworthy

, in the original S&S the fakeclaims were different cards.

ABR was the red herring so pixel, who claimed another black card, jumps up my suspicious list.

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong!

Going by S&S1, scum fake claims were either the same color or artifact (no color). Do you have reason to believe that the scum fake claims in this game are not done the same way?

[massive]

With it being pretty obvious before vezok's post that people were accepting muffin as town, why do you think scum-vezok would ask for muffin's card?

Because the interaction between Antihero and Muffin made him curious about what their shared "aha" moment was. Can I explain it any better than that? I don't think so.

Mastin

: Since you haven't specifically said, can you explain or provide the "clues" that had you completely flip-flop on me at the start of today? As far as I can remember, I didn't interact with Titus, so it's not that.

These are the fastest most desperate counterwagons for ABR.

Talking about the Panda Bears and massive wagons, btw.

That's funny, because I don't remember a wagon on me yesterday. How many people constitute a wagon, in your opinion? There's not a vote for me on that page, and in the two pages prior, it's only ABR voting for me and Muffin doing a whole lot of shilling.

vezok asking for muffin's card in #2558 is HORRIBLE and untrue. I already figured out enough from the muffin / antihero discussion to know that muffin's town, and I should start voting for vezok. And so I did.

vote: vezok

What happened to your Panda Bears read?

It's still there. But 2383 makes me a little hesitant. I don't think Titus would have put thought into the fallout of lynching Pander if he weren't actually town. In any case, Vezok has a lot more egregious things in my book and he deserves my vote more.

[massive]

Antihero

: I can't imagine how it would help. The Mirran watermark would be enough info for me.

[massive]

EBWOP: I'm on VLA tomorrow and Thursday (Iceland!) but should be back on Friday once I get to the wifi of Paris. Will check the thread as much today as possible so if I can answer anything, fire away.

[massive]

Spark Bearer.

Having read the original Mirrodin novels, this is kinda super important.

Yeah, sadly agreed here. Was prepared to fight back on mastin's progression from "totally town massive" to "distancing himself from Pander massive" (which by the way, Pander starting distancing himself from me back on D1, so kinda moots that argument that the Titus flip was involved, and I would still be happy to vote Pander) to "Pander/massive 40% scumbuddies" to just outright saying "Pander/massive" like we're a hydra, but unless one of the Magic flavor peeps are on mastin's scum team, that's hard to ignore.

[massive]

I went through mastin's checklist and Every Single Option told me she was town.

I'm beginning to think mastin might be the third party herself and that, in any event, it might be good business to lynch her because -- well, I think mastin's ability might be the only non-synth thing left that can remove metal-town. With their serum-giver gone, we should be able to prevent them from activating their own presumed special abilities?

[massive]

Dang, I wonder what SKOT would have said if we said, yeah, go ahead, what color are you? I'm also curious SKOT : you're a Mirran-aligned what?

[massive]

I went through mastin's checklist and Every Single Option told me she was town.

I'm beginning to think mastin might be the third party herself and that, in any event, it might be good business to lynch her because -- well, I think mastin's ability might be the only non-synth thing left that can remove metal-town. With their serum-giver gone, we should be able to prevent them from activating their own presumed special abilities?

This post, no sense make.

No curiosity about why I might think this? Just going to brush it aside? Well, no one else was curious so I guess we'll leave it as "making no sense." But I guess you're willing to talk to pretty much everyone but me to clarify their points of view; me I get "makes no sense" (here, 2935) and misquoted and then a throwaway accusation (2937). I'll try not to feel hurt.

It's probably just because I'm the target but MAN you are pushing your horrible massive scum read in every post. And, as far as I know, have NEVER given any kind of reason about it. You will push that agenda in posts that don't even reference me (see the response to Pie right above this). What gives? You are pushing like a cop with a guilty and we all know you ain't no cop.

[massive]

Frankly, if there was a scum nightkill and zMuffinman were alive, I could point to that and bluntly say straight to your faces, with absolute 100% conviction, "I'm town because that would never happen if I was scum." No other player. EVER. Would have been my nightkill. NO CIRCUMSTANCE. No matter what. Would have stopped me from killing him. I NEVER let zMuffinman live as scum. Not unless there's someone who's even worse.

I believe this. Here's the problem: there IS a circumstance, an ACTUAL GAME MECHANIC, that could have stopped you from killing muffin last night. Completely out of your control. Completely without any outside involvement or other serum powers. So it's completely possible that you DID kill muffin as scum - or try to. The fact that he's alive on Day 2 isn't any indication of your innocence, despite how you might like to spin it.

synth mastin

Because of 1093.

serum antihero

Known commodity.

[massive]

It's also bad for the synth off of 1093 (too lazy to check what post 1093 is, but given that we're in the 3000s now, my guess is that it's a D1 post, and the only D1 post I can think of off the top of my head dealing with synthing me is Kagami's post which was bad then and even WORSE now),

It's actually Titus jumping on Kagami for her synth vote. So out of place but got brushed aside.

and for seruming Antihero as a 'known commodity'. Like I said, seruming Antihero seems to be a ridiculously scum-driven idea.

Problem with this is it relies on your reads being somewhere near accurate. Since I know I'm town, your hit rate goes down to about 30%, which is pretty much Every Mafia Wagon.

My problem is I'm on vacation right now and I end up spending all my time reading and defending against mastin's horrible case. And really maybe I should just ignore it since it seems like everyone else isn't even seeing my posts, ha.

[massive]

My head hurts.

The way mastin feels about her lynch wagon is the way I feel about the SKOT synth wagon. I'm not super worried we're throwing the game away (as I don't think SKOT was the potentially-metal-blocked NK target) buuuuut I also think I'm relying more on flavor as a crutch than most. It just seems like a convenient target that claims to be metal and without the synth wagon, might be hard for scum to remove.

I have no mastin experience so every time she says "there's no way scum mastin would do X" I feel like she's trying to hit the superfecta for scum tells in one game.

[massive]

Well, in the last x posts I learned Vezok is still scum and Kagami is still the likely third party, now campaigning for its "non-impactuous" win condition. I can vote mastin, is there anything left to discuss?

[massive]

Thing is, the other three names on my wagon?
Panda Bears, massive, and Tattletale.

Scumdriven.
Guaranteed.

How the heck can you say "driven" when two of your three scum reads are practically absent, and the third is the one you are blindly attacking? What a ridiculous turn of phrase. Even in the wildest chance Tattle and Pander are scum, there's hardly any driving.

I'm not going to arrogantly say all three of them are guaranteed scum.
But I'm definitely saying at least two are.

Let's assume you are correct and 2/9 people on your wagon are scum. How is this statistically enough for you to claim your wagon is scum-driven?

And if you voting for me is sheeping muffin from D1, then what is this I don't even.

[massive]

Hey mastin, why so surprised about the scum having daychat? Why didn't you make any mention of this surprise when muffin was having his stroke at the end of D1? He makes a couple of references to it, and I know you read it when you "came back" to the game following abr's lynch. Why not ask about it then? Or why not check the rules rather than rely on "gut" after 1675?

unvote
vote mastin2

[massive]

And I see another town who lynches mastin town. Yay

It's a lot easier when your PM tells you who the scum is, huh?

[massive]

I think solely based on muffin's likely soaking of thee N1 kill, we should keep the mass metal claim for at least one more day. I don't know, I have too many theories about how it all works but none of it is probably helpful.

Color claim and metal claim go hand-in-hand, probably, since so far our two metal dead / claims are both colorless.

Still think

vote vezok

is right.

[massive]

vezok

: What about mastin's badlynch makes you vote Chandra?

Pander

: What's wrong with my hammer?

[massive]

On a scale from 1 to 10, if I had blankly voted with no additional diatribe, how likely would you be to just paint me as an opportunist hammerer?

[massive]

1.

Obviously you expected a different answer though, which only proves my point.

Why do people feel the urge to answer rhetorical questions? Can't I just put them out there? Your answer would matter if I thought it were anywhere near truthful, but I don't really, so this was more of me being a wiseass than being really curious about your motivations. So I guess it proves your point, assuming your point is, I like rhetorical questions.

(Don't they all seem rhetorical?)

[massive]

Hmm, on further thought I believe it is different. He believes I'm outright lying, it's not a general impression of my posting.

Yes, on that one question. There's no way you could be honestly answering it with a "1". But as to why I'm not voting you: I've seen too many other things from Vezok that are too unanswerable, like saying his role needs no serum but then asking for serum, as well as flavor miscues, to keep letting that slide.

[massive]

Trustworthy

: I go back and forth too, but because of flavor reasons. Pixel's already claimed to be black in color, and that's the primary Phyrexian color -- and I can't decide if I really think Nati would put two black town roles into the game. And honestly that's part of why I hedge about the mass metal claim. It seems convenient for her to name drop muffin as the source of the idea, but with scum obviously having a way to break metal, I can't see how metal claims help the town more than scum. But I think a lot of my bias is from post-day-one-scum-lose-their-serum and pre-muffin-death, too, and I really have not run the numbers.

And to anyone else: I have mentioned a few times I'm on somewhat limited access and am phone/posting so I don't have huge blocks of free time to fight each and every battle. I'm keeping up to date but if you need something long and counter-antagonistic it might be a ways off. I'd be curious to hear if Chandra really thinks I'm scum or is just fighting the "enemy of my enemy" fight, and I think part of Pander's case is "if he thinks I'm scummy why isn't he voting for me" so let me fix that.

unvote
Vote Pander Bears

[massive]

The way zMuffinman is campaigning for serum makes me think he just doesn't want synth.

Yeah. After there was no death N1 and muffin and antihero had their "no look at the card" moment, I knew I was right, and that that was probably how I ended up being the poke at the end of D1. Hence why I stood on "we need to find a metal townie and we can win with it" -- scum didn't have a metal breaker in SS1 and had lost their serum giver in any case, so that seemed like a winning plan. I missed him saying anything about getting demetaled.

[massive]

pixel

: Just so you don't think I'm ignoring the question, I don't think your card name proved anything, if scum have fake claims as we believe. I'm content to keep it in the back of my head for now. There are very VERY few Mirrodin-watermarked black creatures, so I'm assuming it's from an older set, and almost none of that is going to be alignment-indicative.

Did muffin ever mention anything about his ability card?

[massive]

pixel

: Just so you don't think I'm ignoring the question,

I don't think your card name proved anything

, if scum have fake claims as we believe. I'm content to keep it in the back of my head for now. There are very VERY few Mirrodin-watermarked black creatures, so I'm assuming it's from an older set, and almost none of that is going to be alignment-indicative.

Did muffin ever mention anything about his ability card?

It certainly didn't prove anything. I haven't posted it.

Phone fixed the verb tense for me. Clearly I meant your card name proves nothing. Was that not obvious?

[massive]

He did.

Can you infer anything from his creature/ability, your own, and the ones claimed by SKOT and Chandra? If not, is it due to lack of Magic knowledge, or because no inference can be made? I could be hyperfocusing on it.

[massive]

serum F16

I notice Vezok popped up, called some of us idiots, and dodged the question about clarifying his "I don't need serum" statement again.

[massive]

Tattle got me as SK last game. I'm not SK here and I don't know how we got away from Kagami's obv-third-party-ness.

[massive]

Tattle got me as SK last game. I'm not SK here and I don't know how we got away from Kagami's obv-third-party-ness.

Why do you think Pander is so hot for your lynch? Do you see their case-logic even if you disagree?

There's two parts of Pander's case on me: the early part, which is the "lynch hydras" part, and the late part, which is my hammer post on mastin. I'd like to think I've answered both to a reasonable degree, and I definitely don't see any logic behind bringing up the D1 portion of it (since I'm pro-Trustworthy and at least null-pixel) and I think Pander knows this too:

I think people are probably sick of me repeating my early game reasons for wanting massive lynched, so I won't do that again, but the above is what changed my read from 'I'm worried I'm tunneling and I don't know' to 'I think this guy is scum'.

So the question is, do I agree that my hammer post on mastin looks scummy if I look at it as a third party? I imagine it's possible. It wouldn't be the only weapon I'd hope to have to push for someone's lynch but given some pre-existing scum read, I can see how it would certainly be brought up.

As an aside: this game has taught me that you guys value previous behavior and past shared game experience than I remember, and no one has that with me. At some point I'll go back and look at how players read me and my actions versus other players with whom they are experienced, but that's something for when I get back in front of an actual computer and not from a phone.

Regarding why Pander is pushing for my lynch: I think that mastin pushing for my lynch on D2 / attacking me, and our back-and-forth, and then flipping town makes me an easy target, despite votes to the contrary. And possibly the noted inexperience with me as noted above, as other potential lynch targets (SKOT, etc) seem to all have at least one player so firmly in the "he's town" camp to die to defend them, whereas I just have a bunch of null-readers. I think Pander believes he can sway the null-readers.

[massive]

Just because vezok's scum doesn't mean you aren't. I actually CAN have more than one person I think is scum.

[massive]

We should probably put a reminder for vezok to answer the question about his ability not needing serum on every page, so that when he pops up and only reads four posts, we might actually get an answer rather than him actively lurking.

[massive]

Has anyone pointed out the nice big Phyrexian symbol on Pander's claimed card yet? Kinda looks like an O with a line through it? Yeah.

[massive]

synth Pander

[massive]

Seems unlikely. If there was, it was probably mastin.

[massive]

Pixel

: What aspect of the "miller" potential gives you the most cause for inner debate: the artifact creature that's not metal (we've had two, Muffin and SKOT, both at least claimedly metal) or the Phyrexian watermarked creature not being scum?

I'm ok with lynching SKOT as utility simply because there are things that don't make sense about his claimed card and role, but it would ONLY be in the totally selfish vein of figuring out how the creature-ability cards might work together. (Suffice to say, SKOT's ability card makes NO sense when compared to neither my combination, nor to Chandra's claimed pairing.) But since I have no further information (and no guarantee that Chandra is telling the truth), I think I'll stick with the Panders vote myself.

EBWOP:

Kagami

: As far as I know, the only currently-claimed black card is pixel.

[massive]

Pixel

: What aspect of the "miller" potential gives you the most cause for inner debate: the artifact creature that's not metal (we've had two, Muffin and SKOT, both at least claimedly metal) or the Phyrexian watermarked creature not being scum?

I'm ok with lynching SKOT as utility simply because there are things that don't make sense about his claimed card and role, but it would ONLY be in the totally selfish vein of figuring out how the creature-ability cards might work together. (Suffice to say, SKOT's ability card makes NO sense when compared to neither my combination, nor to Chandra's claimed pairing.) But since I have no further information (and no guarantee that Chandra is telling the truth), I think I'll stick with the Panders vote myself.

EBWOP:

Kagami

: As far as I know, the only currently-claimed black card is pixel.

I don't know a damned thing about MTG. Can you please explain the second paragraph again?

Some of you are acting like this is the equivalent of claiming Riddler in a Gotham City flavored game. Is it that cut and dried?

Sure. From my vantage there are three types of role/ability sets:

1. Role from a Mirrodin set, ability relevant to the role's ability. See Chandra. The Unsummon ability card is roughly identical to the Hoverguard's ability. The match outweighs the fact that Unsummon is not, in itself, a card from either Mirrodin block.

2. Role from a Mirrodin set, ability from a Mirrodin set. There may be some light connection (see Muffin's Lead The Stampede), and mod has picked a Mirrodin card that roughly fits a desired Mafia effect. My role-ability cards fall into this category.

3. Role from a Mirrodin set, ability from outside Mirrodin. This is where SKOT lives. Ocular Halo is not inside Mirrodin and appears unrelated to his role card.

Without knowledge of what each ability does or how much duplication needs to be in a game of this type (don't we already have a claimed watcher, as an additional piece of info?), it's just an oddity. Having Muffin's ability card to pair with his role card is just an increasing bit of evidence that may be useful later.

And ... it's kinda like a Joker henchman, with a Joker uniform and an "I work for Joker Inc" business card.

[massive]

Well what's the point in waiting up to see the flip if there's no flip?

[massive]

How the heck did pixel get serum two nights in a row, and why are we wasting our own serum vote on giving it to her a third night? Also, does no one remember the "serum three nights rule"?

Pixel: any interest in giving us your ability card? I'm curious why you're Moriok Rigger when there's a Moriok Scavenger card, and how the "scavenge" verb got introduced. But I'm also over the whole "playing by flavor" thing.

And man, nothing makes me rethink new positions like seeing a vezok post.

[massive]

Hey pixel? Can you explain why Muffin seemed surprised about (seemingly) losing his metal and posted about a potential scum-synther in 2701? Also, didn't you say you and Muffin discussed you scavenging his metal (by which I assume you removed it from him) - wouldn't you have been discussing it in the neighborhood D2 and performed that task N2? If so, why was he talking about being demetaled on D2 before you could have been the cause of him losing metal? (Or alternately, if Muffin requested that you take his metal D2, where did he get it from if he lost it N1?)

[massive]

Hey pixel? Can you explain why Muffin seemed surprised about (seemingly) losing his metal and posted about a potential scum-synther in 2701? Also, didn't you say you and Muffin discussed you scavenging his metal (by which I assume you removed it from him) - wouldn't you have been discussing it in the neighborhood D2 and performed that task N2? If so, why was he talking about being demetaled on D2 before you could have been the cause of him losing metal? (Or alternately, if Muffin requested that you take his metal D2, where did he get it from if he lost it N1?)

Muffin didn't lose his serum until night 2. That's when I was first serumed. We talked about what to do with my ability in our neighborhood. We discussed options a little, decided who should inherit his metal and I made it happen. Start of day 3 he was dead. Which totally cratered our semi-thought-out plans for day 3. He was going to push really hard to force mass metal claims, and I was going to stay in the background on that discussion.

Didn't work out. :/

I think the point of his day 2 stuff was to mess with scum. He thought he might have been the kill target on night 1. we didn't learn about my ability until Night 2.

Can you reconcile the logic of these statements with the logic from this post? You seem to ignore Trustworthy saying something about Muffin's demetal question, and present the idea of a metal deployer as a Muffin idea. Seems like this would have been the perfect time to (a) clear Muffin's demetalling up and (b) get some support for your mass metal claim.

[massive]

Pretty sure vezok CAN'T see questions at this point. Like, physically unable. Or is scum. And I think if he's counterclaiming F16 that he should go first with the full claim.

Pretty sure Chandra isn't a jailkeeper but that's immaterial to his allegiance. (Pretty sure I am.)

[massive]

the only thing abut it that doesn't make any sense is there's supposedly 4 protective/blocking roles if massive's claim is correct in a game where there's already a bunch of ppl who are unkillable. if all of those claims are accurate and I'm wrong about CN, massive is prob scum. plus, I don't like how massive's reaction was basically "ok, I'm pretty sure I'm also a jailkeeper" and then nothing else as opposed to vezok who came out the gate swinging.

The only problem there is that neither I nor Chandra actually KNOW what our ability is. To be frank, neither does vezok. So saying "we have four protective roles" is a little obtuse since we only have one that's gotten serum and could be AT BEST 2/4 of those being actually protective. Then there's also the "how much duplication does a game of this style need to be balanced" factor.

Coming out swinging at Chandra's claim when neither of us actually know what our abilities DO seems a little TOO aggressive, don't you think?

And I also am back in the US and in front of a computer so I too will hopefully be more wordy going forward.

I feel like, regarding pixel's ability, that serum'ing her a third time forces us into a tough spot if Trustworthy dies. But as a longtime devotee of the "ride town metal to victory" plan, I'd like to at least see where some plan might go. If metal gets stuck somewhere it aughtn't, then we still have the synth vote to fall back on.

Regarding metal claims : I'm not.

serum Antihero

I'm OK with SKOT since I can't reconcile his claimed cards.

I don't see any connection with role TITLES and cards. (My role title isn't a Magic card but it could have been!) And I feel more confident in my own interpretation of my ability card over the fairly arbitrary "Unsummon" and "Fortify" cards, and I'm happy to give the name of my ability card if so requested.

[massive]

So

PeregrineV

-- you are therefore opposed to serum-ing Antihero. Is it because you don't feel there is value in his ability, because you want to iron out the "counter" claimed ability issue, some third reason?

[massive]

So

PeregrineV

-- you are therefore opposed to serum-ing Antihero. Is it because you don't feel there is value in his ability, because you want to iron out the "counter" claimed ability issue, some third reason?

Getting some hintage in the analysis I did that he might be scum. Otherwise, he is a name cop or card cop or something?

Something like that. We never got a confirmation in-thread that Anti had the actual name for muffin's role card, but he did correctly identify that muffin had a Mirran watermark, which should not be overlooked, since we now know that there are town role cards without any watermark at all (neither ABR nor mastin had a watermark).

Given that he probably gets no information on a player's ability card, do you think it's more beneficial for scum or town? If he's town, then he's essentially a flavor cop. If he's scum, then he's about half a rolecop.

[massive]

I don't disagree that flavor seems to have a lot of red herrings. The problem is, in the light of unknown abilities, is an unknown ability on an unknown player better than a flavor cop?

That being said, if you're not in favor of the role cop, why not F16's claimed doctor ability? I'd vote for vezok before I'd serum him.

[massive]

Antihero can't be scum unless scum targeted SKOT on night one, which makes no sense.

Or muffin. You can argue that muffin was only the target N2 because he was confirmed D2 by Antihero, though, and that's the most logical process of kill attempts (N1 Anti, N2 Muffin).

[massive]

I think massive really was metalfishing on day one.

Care to back that up with actual links to my posts? Because I'll happily do the same for you and point out all the stuff that indicates you're the metal-eater.

[massive]

If 1494 was me fishing for metal, wouldn't that make muffin the logical target for me to kill N1 if I was the metal-eater? You know, when he actually WAS metal?

[massive]

If I'm scum and I think Muffin is metal, why do I kill him N2? I only do that if I know pixel is going to strip him of his metal, and pixel only does that if she's scum.

[massive]

That seems consistent with chandra's statement. Being evil doesn't mean scum here, though.

Yeah, but being Phyrexian (or at least Phyrexian-oil-infused) doesn't mean you're scum either -- see Pander.

Chandra

: The "flip card" / "withholding" part of this discussion is kinda nitpicky, don't you think? Especially when you defended Mastin for her Glissa role claim? And you said in 742 that you'd "never lynch on flavor"?

And while I think it's crazy that Garruk is even in this game, at least PV reasonably breadcrumbed this fact back in 723.

[massive]

Chandra: The "flip card" / "withholding" part of this discussion is kinda nitpicky, don't you think? Especially when you defended Mastin for her Glissa role claim? And you said in 742 that you'd "never lynch on flavor"?

Yes.

I don't actually care what his flavor is, though it bothered me a bit that he wasn't as forthright as he could have been about it.

This doesn't jive with this:

Garruk can be scum. He turns evil.

------

Just thinking out loud. The thing no one has really considered is PV as third-party. If PV is a third party with an independent wincon, what is it? Was the information that mastin "townslipped" with public knowledge?

[massive]

Sure it does. Kagami was proposing that he is indeed Garruk as though that would make him town. I am arguing that that isn't a reason to townread him. Does his handling of the card not bother you, Mr. Magic Player?

A little. There are plenty of other Magic-experienced people in the game that it's unlikely that the half-card would have gone unnoticed, and it's likely that PV only has the front of the card as his role card -- so in anyone else's hand, it might not even been a question he could have answered. And he doesn't go "evil" so much as "insane," and it's only really then to hunt down and kill other planeswalkers.

In any case, it's not as much as Garruk being in a Mirrodin game. But I've been burned too many times on flavor things in this game, so I have to overlook that. I'm not voting PV. I'm either Chandra or No Lynch and leaning towards No Lynch.

[massive]

That said I'm only slightly caught up on today and haven't read how Panda Bears got thrown out,

It happened because this town is composed of big dumb jerks D:<

It happened because he claimed a role card that (a) was Phyrexian and (b) turned out to be the only non-metal artifact creature we've seen so far. Do you not remember that?

[massive]

I think its super neat that when Vezok said 'i think im the doctor and f-16 is scum' both pie and massive tag-teamed him to fullclaim first, because that's what you do when someone counterclaims someone I guess? !

What about when the "counterclaimer" has no idea what his ability is, has never gotten serum, and has been so scummy one voted for him on multiple days? Seems kinda crappy that you just throw out that blanket statement without even mentioning I might have found him the scummier of the two, and making the scummier person claim first is the right play.

[massive]

What about when the "counterclaimer" has no idea what his ability is, has never gotten serum, and has been so scummy one voted for him on multiple days? Seems kinda crappy that you just throw out that blanket statement without even mentioning I might have found him the scummier of the two, and making the scummier person claim first is the right play.

He's fairly obvtown so you voting him for multiple days doesn't really increase where you sit in my book. When someone is attempting to catch another person in a lie based on the belief they have in their own claim, it is not the right play to demand they claim first. You should know that you have the name of your ability, right? I have a better question though, if the important part (that F-16 was a doc) was outted, why would scum care enough about his flavor to fake-counter him to force him to out it? Knowing that vezok at that moment had 0 chance of getting F-16 lynched over it? You are saying that vezok did a weird thing and it being weird was SCUMMY. Also the "A little TOO aggressive" comment. No, I'm fairly confident that town's reaction to someone possibly claiming their role is rightfully to go LIAR.

Also, on having no idea what his ability is, you said in 4447 you were pretty sure you're a JK. Why are you allowed to make assumptions on what you are but someone else isn't?

Vezok is obvtown? Put Tammy back on the line because I know she at least read day 2 and 3.

And my role card is ... less obtuse than Fortify and some of these other cards.

[massive]

16. pieguynPHANTOM - ??? role probably scum

I haven't claimed. are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?

re: fullclaim: there's not much of a reason for them to withhold flavor if they've already claimed what they think their role is. I pushed for fullclaim bc it's better to have that info public in case there's a legitimate discrepancy somewhere.

I agree with this first sentence and I think I'm the only holdout amongst those in that discussion.

Role card: Grand Architect, Mirrodin-aligned Mastermind
Ability card: Vedalkan Shackles

[massive]

That looks like a roleblocker (because shackles) or redirector (because of what the card actually does, which is to say it basically mind controls a creature) to me, not a jailkeeper

Between Unsummon and Vedalken Shackles, when viewed with a modicum of logic, which seems more likely to be a jailkeeper?

[massive]

What is necessitating the existence of a jailkeeper? Especially considering the amount of bulletproofishness in the setup?

There is none. And since we know neither mine nor Chandra's actually ability, there may not BE one. But that doesn't preclude me from trying to determine which common Mafia role was a most logical fit to my ability card.

[massive]

I'm going back trying to figure out how I went from null-town to scum in so many people's eyes, and I'm going to try and ask questions as I come to them. I have another post for some other stuff but this is just a short question.

pixel

: How did Mhork come to be the second half of the Antihero swap? You spent at least part of D2 voting for me, and mentioned a number of times I was a scumread of yours. Mastin was confirmed town and had been espousing synthing me towards most of the end of D2. Why was it more likely Mhork was scum-metal than I was?

[massive]

I've written a Chandra vote three times in the past two days, and ended up deleting it every time because of something Chandra says or something I read back from Day One, and then Mhork comes in and makes me want to vote Chandra all over again. How does THAT work?

[massive]

I've written a Chandra vote three times in the past two days, and ended up deleting it every time because of something Chandra says or something I read back from Day One, and then Mhork comes in and makes me want to vote Chandra all over again. How does THAT work?

Brief re-read time again.

Given that 2 game days have passed, would like your updated read of Tattletale.

2785 is town. 3000 says "my interactions with Titus should clear me" but I don't have any notes on that, so perhaps I need to go back. Nope, I don't see how her interactions with Titus clear her, they consist of a short "vote Titus" campaign prior to the Titus/TW "team up" and a "if one of you is scum, I think it's more likely you" that ends up going nowhere. BUT 3115 actually clears up why Tattletale didn't push. ISO 58-67, whether you agree with them or not, is a lot of effort for someone who has already said they're content waiting to be useful until the end game, and was in no real danger of being lynched. 3367 I like her shouldering her decision to sheep muffin. ...

It was at this point that I realized I didn't have any idea what Tattletale thought about most people. She asks other people for their walls / opinions a lot (SKOT in 4303, for example, Majiffy in 3856). She interacts what I would call "favorably" with vezok and SKOT. Her Chandra townread has been consistent (see 3591) but, as far as I can see, undescribed. She hasn't fought with any players, hasn't pushed any lynches. So, amazingly, she's practically still in

needs more data

which I find surprising. I'd probably categorize her as "hiding in plain sight." She's been more useful in terms of generating meaningful responses from other players than, say, Mhork, but I don't think I swing either way beyond "useful."

[massive]

Massive shut up everyone knows you're scummy as fuck.

You're so adorable when you're angry.

[massive]

I'm going back trying to figure out how I went from null-town to scum in so many people's eyes, and I'm going to try and ask questions as I come to them. I have another post for some other stuff but this is just a short question.

Why are you more concerned about other player's reads on you rather than your reads on others?

Because I think they go hand-in-hand. Do you not think that people who slide rather easily from "null-F16" to "scum-F16" without much detail deserve some additional scrutiny? I know I'm town, so is it scum sliding into a possible easy lynch? Is it being fueled by any specific player?

On the flip side, town's job is to be as town as possible. So am I not doing my job? I don't know, am I simplifying it too much?

[massive]

It was at this point that I realized I didn't have any idea what Tattletale thought about most people. She asks other people for their walls / opinions a lot

The bolded is the key thing to me. Asking is generally the springboard to discussion on differences or similarities, but that's not the sense I'm getting from the Tattletale questions.

Had a second look today. Tattletale is town. FINALLY something I am confident of!

[massive]

what convinced you?

It wasn't anything Tattletale said explicitly. It was more of a "what's missing?" and Tattletale was the answer.

OH LOOK EVERYBODY

massive found his rock!

it's ......... TATTLETALE

you are so scum

I wish you were even a smidge more useful.

[massive]

Tattletale is the other serum giver. Based on claimed roles and the assumption that the third serum-giver isn't scum and wouldn't lie about their ability, the only remaining candidates are Pie and Tattletale (everyone else has claimed a role or has been given serum and provided results). When you look at D1, Phantom is questioning Trustworthy about her role (and not so much Titus), and 513 makes it seem like he has no idea what Titus/Trust are hinting at. Tattletale, on the other hand, is clear in believing that Titus is the scummier of the two, and when viewed in this light it makes even more sense why she didn't push it D1. It also goes a long way to explaining why she's been questioning a lot of people but hasn't been especially vocal about her reads -- she's keeping them close and using them to determine how best to use the serum.

[massive]

Kagami:

There were four provable night actions on N1 : Muffin's neighborizer, Mhork's message system or whatever it is, Ludi's vig shot, and Antihero's investigation. We know how three of them happened -- Mhork got serum from Titus and Antihero got the vote, and TW gave serum to one of {Muffin, Ludi}. The fourth ability needs the serum and unless you think there's a random serum mechanic in the game, then there has to be a third giver.

If there's not, then you have to talk to Trustworthy about the practicality of giving an unknown-at-that-time Pixel serum both D2 and D3, but I don't think Trustworthy did that -- so another likely point towards a non-TW serum-giver.

F16:

I went back and forth. The question is, if I'm scum, what do I gain by putting it in the thread?

vote Chandra

At this point, I feel like Trustworthy is right, and that skipping a lynch doesn't get us anywhere tomorrow.

[massive]

And here I was all excited to find someone I could actually work with, and she wants me dead. That's almost poetic.

[massive]

Well, to start, not having PV gladiate you first thing in the morning -- that was my primary idea there.

[massive]

And massive, I wasn't asking why hypothetical scum-you wouldn't want to out Tattletale. I'm asking if you are town, why do it?

Because I was asked by PV, and I couldn't think of any non-descriptive way to go about it, and I didn't see any reason it would necessarily move Tattletale up the scum nightkill pecking order. I was OK if it was just pixel, I felt like I could brush her aside without impacting too many things (she likely thinks I'm scum or is willing to lynch me anyways), but PV seemed to be using the day to gather momentum on his next potential gladiator target, and I guess I was a little naive in hoping that he would at least let it rest until tomorrow. Maybe I could have pushed him off, but I thought more about it and decided that ultimately scum have had zero interest in killing Trustworthy despite her being a serum-giver and practically confirmed town, so decided to put my thoughts down.

[massive]

first off, I'm p sure ML's vig didn't require serum (given he got it back on like D2 or wherever and that's when he got the tracker). but that's not the point.

ML's vig shot was N1 (he received serum D1 to use it) and his tracker result was from N2 (he got the serum vote D2 to use it). He didn't fight the serum vote D2 and he's flipped-town so why would you think he didn't need serum?

anyway, do you have any other reads at all? during your limited time here, you have supposedly been trying to figure out who the serum giver is. however, all I got from you in terms of reads has been you thinking Tattletale was town bc of said PR. the rest of your posts have been attacking and taking potshots at literally everything.

I think you are confusing me with SKOT or Vezok or Mhork maybe, although you didn't say "defending Chandra," so maybe not Mhork.

I have Vezok (the whole traitor thing, and he hasn't done anything to move me since) and Mhork (gameplay, "upgrade") scum, and have voted Vezok in the past. I have Kagami 3P and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that, and can go into more detail if you want. I have TW (obv), PV (despite what anyone else says, his Chandra read has been consistent, and the ability is town), you (Phantom + game play), now Tattletale (see above), and Anti (D2 and how his ability played out) as town. Regarding the mystery people:

pixel - I can't wrap my brain around two things; one, another black non-Phyrexian card, and two, the serendipitousness of her metal-removal. Scum likely try and kill Antihero N1 and fail, she gets into a neighborhood with muffin and learns he's metal, she removes his metal N2 and he dies N2, and then Anti loses his metal N3? People have been quick to clear her based on the stated ability, but all it takes is for Mhork to be her scumbuddy and then her "metal-mover" can easily just be "metal-remover." Unfortunately, every time I go back to try and ISO pixel, I see more things that point to town.

SKOT - his ability doesn't match his card, and it doesn't match the game. His game participation has been rubbish. Neither of those make him scum, evidently. What I'm not crazy about is his Chandra-focus, which (unlike others) doesn't actually seem to have a reason behind it. Seems like he's riding behind whoever leads the charge against Chandra and just hides in the shadows, so I lean scum.

F16 - I lean town but honestly this is the slot I am least familiar with, and probably should go read his ISO.

Chandra - My early notes would have me believe that Chandra is town. There's a consistency that I liked about his play, and I think if Mhork is town and Chandra is scum, it would be very easy to just reverse the buddying, but Chandra fights it instead. And I think there's a limit to how much white-knighting you can do as scum before it becomes obvious, so his defense of Mastin and Pander, while I agreed with neither, comes off genuine rather than from the standpoint of additional knowledge. I understand the VCA from D1 and it's not concrete enough to move me to scum, but it's logical. His later-days game though has been less helpful for determining alignment, and I honestly don't know how to read his temper tantrum either way. I put off voting as long as I could.

I fucking hate where your focus is. the way you're playing feels more like you're scum attacking whoever you feel like, as opposed to town legitimately forming and pushing suspects. exactly what are you trying to accomplish in this game?

My problem is that I've spent too much of the game on defense -- Pander D1, Mastin D2, Pander D3 -- and I'm likely playing D again tomorrow. I think I put too much effort into that, and figuring that flavor knowledge would help me on the scumhunting side. That's on me. At least I'm learning the modern game a little bit.

[massive]

I think massive's thing about the three serum-givers is probably wrong but sounds like he genuinely believes it. I think ludi's vig shot likely didn't require serum. This would imply massive is town if there are only two givers, because I imagine titus would have been pretty clear on that in the scum QT, and TW should be able to confirm only two.

We've been over this previously -- it's undetermined, at least according to TW. There's some vagueness to the PM as it says there's another Blinkmoth, and we don't know if it's supposed to be Titus, or some other Blinkmoth card.

[massive]

I'm here. Catching up now.

[massive]

I don't thnk we should necessarily be giving free passes for Mirran watermarks after the Pander flip, but it's possible that there's just one flavor godfather or something.

Anti's not a flavor cop, he's a fake roleclaim cop. Do you think scum need a flavor godfather when they're given safeclaims? If so, don't you think Nati could have come up with a better one than some random Vedalken?

Two docs in a game where metalness is an important concept.

This I wanted to quote because it's important.

I still don't think CN can be scum with my other POE reads, but I can't let go of my original instinct about her so she's down there. I'm also not sure massive is town - there is almost certainly a flavor godfather, otherwise there's no point in putting a flavor cop to begin with.

I'm not saying I've played a scintillating game but having two people jump immediately to "flavor godfather" is kinda ridiculous.

I have another passive ability called Sheltering Word. This gives me a 1X immunity to the standrard Phyrexian nightkill. I had Eternal Witness as a safe-claim.

This is the hardest part of the Melira claim for me to buy. What's the point of giving a self-doc a second type of nightkill immunity in a game where we already have metal as a mechanic?

Also, why does a survivor one-shot-NK-immune self-doc NEED a fake claim?

Continuing on from this.

[massive]

I think F-16's claim is real; the win-con basically confirms there's a survivor. I also think he really believes what he's saying about vezok, and I continue to think fortify makes little sense as a doc. Even if it's true, ferry was the obvious doc target last night.

It would be great if a lore buff can divine which card is likely to "smother then sacrifice." Unless nati has a pretty sick imagination, that has to be a reference to something specific.

There is a card called "Smother" that's not in Mirrodin. There is a Phyrexian praetor with a sacrifice ability:

We can't serum anti today, he's had it twice

This is a little disingenuous, since we CAN serum Anti today. Is it the worst idea to continue to serum the flavor cop?

[massive]

You are conditionally confirmed town as long as there aren't multiple scumteams.

Oh, I wanted to say something but forgot. I want Trustworthy synthed at some point if it is proven we have more than one scumteam. That's where I was going with Pixel potentially giving them metal.

Here's the problem with two scumteams:

1. We can say with confidence that TW and Titus were both Blinkmoths. (Previous game serumgiver, plus the way they both worked to identify each other.)

2. There's only one type of corrupted Blinkmoth - Inkmoth. Inkmoth is a Phyrexian Blinkmoth.

3. If both are scum (Inkmoths), then they're both Phyrexian and on the same scumteam.

------

I think Kagami is the scum with the smash kill. She's already claimed a metal-smashing ability card, and there is literally ONE role card she can be that matches all her previous claims, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. I also find it interesting that immediately AFTER she claims, we get a scum kill with a new flavor.

I think Chandra's ability card is probably Unsummon (it matches up with everything he's said about it, starting on Day One) but is non-alignment-indicative.

Anyone want to give specifics about Mhork's ability from Day One?

I understand all the arguments for and against lynching F16 today. While I realize, he could fake the survivor claim, I don't think scum-F16 needs to fake-claim his one-shot NK protection, as it's extraneous and unbelievable on the face, so I think it's more likely he actually is a survivor. Immediately my thought is "I don't care if F16 wins with us, as long as we win," and I want to believe that we can agree lynching scum > lynching survivor today. So I guess the question is, can we actually do that?

[massive]

I don't know what massive thinks I am, but I'm an acid web spider.

Yup. That's what I think you are.

... I did just have an idea. Since we know Mhork is metal, who wants to serum Kagami and have her eat Mhork tonight? It's not like there's any known metal townies for her to eat instead.

Antihero, Massive, what are your thoughts on SKOT?

How willing he would be to 100% town-read Titus early on D1 if they're buddies? I know the idea had to be that Titus wasn't going to die, but this came even before TW and Titus became linked, and he sticks with it well after that. That being said, it's only a handful of posts, and it could be throwaway.

3772 is interesting to me. Anti got demetaled by Pixel and got a message. Why didn't SKOT get a message?

3489 is his first Chandra vote and 3785 is a short synopsis of his reasons. When Chandra attacks him for voting without reasons, why doesn't he just link back to this post?

And ... what's the deal with 4293-4295?

His role claim and ability claim don't match and his ability card has no flavor relation. His general gameplay has been rubbish. But I don't see how him deathtunnelling Chandra helps scum But At All, ESPECIALLY today after the Gladiate failed. I can't see Chandra as the mislynch train to push today. But I also think that was supposed to be me. If SKOT is town, who's the scum-designated mislynch?

---

synth Lord Mhork

[massive]

I want to hear from Massive, Anti, Kagami, and Tattletale why they agree or disagree with lynching SKOT.

I agree with lynching SKOT, so long as you agree with synthing Mhork, because tomorrow, he gots ta go.

Still curious if anyone wants to share Mhork's N1 super-secret ability.

[massive]

That last vote on mastin's train should be me, not her.

Seeing Tattletale on all three lynches is a little ... unsettling.

[massive]

Decided to go back and reread F16 from his Melira claim, had these questions, still reading.

I can think of a couple of reasons why Jiffy was killed.

a) He was a claimed tracker (still not sure how he apparently got a vig-shot in).
b) He was defending Ceph. But if Ceph is town and scum planned to mislynch him, I doubt they would send a glaring signal to the town to re-evaluate. But then I don't think Ceph would kill him either.
c) I could see SKOT killing him.

Why would SKOT specifically kill Majiffy?

We've got 12 players right now. If it is 4 scum - 1 neutral - 12 town, then there are three more scum left. If we mislynch today, we'll be at 10 players with 3 mafia. If we mislynch again, we'll be at 8 players with 3 mafia. If we mislynch again, then we lose. But we can still win from that point by lynching the scum.

This is wrong, correct? If you actually are a survivor and are one of remaining players at 8/3, we don't have that last lynch as you just vote with scum and win.

It is possible. But if Vezok is scum, I'm thinking it is more likely they tried to kill me especially with Muffin gearing up to lead a mislynch on Mastin.

Why is Vezok more likely to have tried to kill you N1?

[massive]

Players who are not getting serum today:
-Antihero: had it twice

Disagree here, antihero is great serum.

What's the point of continuously seruming Antihero if you aren't going to trust his results?

[massive]

Antihero's points on SKOT are actually really good. And between SKOT and Tattletale, I want to lynch SKOT first. Massive, thoughts?

The falloff on SKOT after his synth is interesting, I'd like to go back and reread what happened the next day.

And sorry Kagami, I promise I'll read all updates before getting snippy next time.

[massive]

I'm very leery of pie's metal claim.

I'm very leery of Pie's EVERYTHING claim, since Karn is one of the main Phyrexian corruption targets and master of the entire plane. Since you so desperately want a flavor godfather, Chandra, there it is.

Wait, what happened? Didn't we have a week left on deadline? Nice job F16.

[massive]

Whatever Memnarch is, he's not Phyrexian at any level.

[massive]

the posts where F-16 interacts with Kagami. Kagami was one of the ppl pushing the Tammy town angle the last game day. however, the way he interacted with her was completely different than the way he interacted with me/vezok on a fundamental level - there's a shitton of him asking her for her reads on various ppl (Tammy, SKOT) without forming a read either way, as opposed to me/vezok where he started scumreading both of us out the gate.

He did that to me, too, so it's not unique to Kagami. Maybe not as egregiously, but he was definitely the only person interacting with me yesterday.

[massive]

The problem with Lord Mhork being mafia is his power. Natirasha scum teams are typically strong (even overpowered -- see Arcadia) with each player having one or even several useful abilities. Messenger is close to vanilla.

Why would you say that you know that Natirasha's scum teams can have one or even several useful abilities, then write Mhork off for only one "close to vanilla" ability? Isn't it possible, based on your knowledge of the mod, that Mhork-scum could have multiple abilities?

in a hypothetical multiball what's could possibly be the invisible scumteam's flavor?

Since we have some Original Mirrodin elements, the hypothetical second scum team would have to be the bad guys from Original Mirrodin -- that's Memnarch, which is you. Memnarch was also the godfather in S&S1. I don't think you ask this question if you actually ARE some unknown second scum team, though. The suggestion of Melira as a second thematic scumteam by Kagami looks awful opportune there, too, since we conveniently have a Melira that we want to lynch.

unsummon

to my untrained eye, this looks like it would be vanillaize

magic players?

Unsummon basically forces the target to skip a turn, and forces the player to re-spend resources. It could be a roleblock, delay, jailkeep (because it can be used defensively to prevent your own creature from getting killed). I don't see it as a vanillaizer.

I'm way more likely to serum Tattletale than I am Kagami. Kagami seems way more like a strongarm than a demetaler, which would make Pie less likely to be scum (Kagami wouldn't threaten to demetal him in 5836 if they were on the same team).

i don't know

am i just making stuff up and really the flavor

doesn't

match all that?

I'm trying to look at the possible big Phyrexian cards and I don't have any ideas. Sacrifice -> Sheoldred, outrace might be Urabrask?



---

Hey Mhork -- what's your ability card name?

[massive]

Fervor. Specifically:



the matching ability to Urabrask up there. No idea how this is a messenger ability, either. Anyone who got the message still alive? Shadoweh? Any way to connect Mhork's message to this ability card? Also, if I look at the mailman wiki entry, it says "The sender of the message is usually anonymous to the recipient." Was the message something like "Hi it's me Lord Mhork" or did the mod confirm Mhork as the sender of the message?

------

Further thoughts: In Magic, your dudes can't do anything until the turn after they get played. Haste (which Fervor gives your guys, and so does Urabrask) means they CAN do things the same turn, effectively making them faster than your opponent's. I have absolutely no trust in flavor being relevant (it hasn't to this point) but there IS a flavor connection between Mhork's ability card and a Phyrexian praetor, AND a possible connection to the "outrace" kill. NONE of it, however, relates to his messenger ability, which is about the only proven thing.

------

Antihero

: You're right, and we still can't account for Ludi/Majiffy's N1 kill and how THAT got powered up.

[massive]

Even if you're throwing yourself onto the fire, I still don't see how you can honestly think there's two scum parties.

So what are we doing with the serum? And should we also synth F16 today as well?

[massive]

If there's a second contingent, Antihero is leading it. Why does Antihero clear me D5 if he knows that there are two scum factions (which he would, since he's not Phyrexian) when I'm a very easy mislynch for either group?

I'd like to suggest myself as a possible serum candidate.

serum massive

[massive]

what's your serum ability?

Vedalkan Shackles. Possible jailkeeper, possible redirect.

[massive]

._.
Massive... That's not even a thing :/
That's the most stretched logic I've seen in awhile

Tell me about it. Ive been stretching logic all game, it feels like. Remind me later I even have a theory about Ludi's N1 kill. It's also out there (and ends up with Kagami-scum again).

[massive]

Mhork, Kagami, and one of Pie or Tattletale. I'd wager Tattletale. The only thing I could see on Pie is because Karn really does succumb to the Phyrexians during NPH, but neither Karn

card

is anywhere near Phyrexian.

I wish someone would answer my question about the Mhork message. I am spinning in my own theories and I'm just going to end up WIFOMing myself into oblivion.

[massive]

The problem with Lord Mhork being mafia is his power. Natirasha scum teams are typically strong (even overpowered -- see Arcadia) with each player having one or even several useful abilities. Messenger is close to vanilla.

Why would you say that you know that Natirasha's scum teams can have one or even several useful abilities, then write Mhork off for only one "close to vanilla" ability? Isn't it possible, based on your knowledge of the mod, that Mhork-scum could have multiple abilities?

One ability -- more likely to be town
Multiple abilities, can only use one -- why use that one?
Multiple abilities, can use more than one, did something else

Are you suggesting the third option?

There is a fourth possibility: Multiple abilities, used ALL of them. Just because the only one people saw was the messenger one, doesn't mean it was the only thing performed.

There is even a fifth possibility: that Titus didn't actually serum Mhork but serumed someone else who sent the message.

Mhork, Kagami, and one of Pie or Tattletale. I'd wager Tattletale. The only thing I could see on Pie is because Karn really does succumb to the Phyrexians during NPH, but neither Karn

card

is anywhere near Phyrexian.

I wish someone would answer my question about the Mhork message. I am spinning in my own theories and I'm just going to end up WIFOMing myself into oblivion.

What about me?

What about you? Aren't you a survivor?

[massive]

You're even more preposterous after midnight. You're like the gremlin of mafia.

[massive]

massive didn't even put F-16 as scum in his reads list. he's also pushed Tattletale for being on all 3 lynches, and sure enough defended F-16/Kagami from me when I first pushed them as a team.

I don't think F16 is scum. I think he's a survivor. Why then would I put him in my scum list? And why then would I think he and Kagami are a team?

And yeah, I'm going to vote him. There's no rush.

He claimed melira and wanted antihero to investigate him. Antihero would have died last night if F-16 were scum who was lying about his flavor. Melira is not metal.

I like this and agree with this. So we should be synthing Pie then I reckon.

... the problem is, if Pie is scum and metal, he wouldn't claim to be metal, would he? We already demetaled Mhork and I can't see anything that would let Kagami keep her stated role card (which I don't think she's lying about) and still be metal. Should we instead synth Tattletale? Ugh.

[massive]

Tattletale

: How did you go from a Mhork town read in 5483 (ISO 158) to him being one of your "core scum reads" in 5591 (ISO 159)? You vote him and then unvote, and then by 5611 (ISO 168) you are back to "needs a better writeup." Where are you really with respect to Mhork?

[massive]

You said you think Falcon is a survivor -- thoughts on his wagon composition?

Peregrine is most likely town. I'm all for him doing his gladiator thing, but I don't think the way he triggered the first one makes any sense at all if he's a one-shot scum gladiator -- as I think Kagami noted, it made sense with his read of Chandra, and only prevented the lynch of SKOT who turned out town. (I think whoever it was also mentioned PV might be protecting me, but since I know I'm town, that pretty much clears him to me.) Having a scum one-time gladiator blow his chance when he could have just let us mislynch SKOT is ... dumb.

PeregrineV

-- if we wanted you to gladiate Pie instead of F16, how would you feel about that?

Antihero is definitely town.

Pie hopped off today and could go either way. I want Pie to be town because I think Karn should be in the game, but I also think it would be VERY easy for Karn to be the flavor godfather, as he spends a good amount of time in New Phyrexia as the new Father of Machines (the Phyrexian "god" as it were). And while pre-NPH Karn definitely kills a bunch of Phyrexians, he also spends a good amount of time as a pacifist, and I agree that metal vigilante is "out there" in terms of power, especially compared to the town powers we've seen to this point. I figure I have a bit of time to go back and look at Pie in general, just had such good feels the first couple of days.

[massive]

No, only spinning WIFOM theories about flavor. I'm going to write them all down in my diary for laughs at the end of the game.

[massive]

Pie hopped off today and could go either way

did you miss me saying the only reason I unvoted was bc I didn't even wanna risk anyone inadvertently putting him at L-1 and him selfhammering? I outright said earlier I still want a F-16 lynch.

I did not. F16 asked me what I thought of the people on the wagon, and that included you. The "could go either way" is about my opinion of you, not about your personal voting.

... I did just have an idea. Since we know Mhork is metal, who wants to serum Kagami and have her eat Mhork tonight? It's not like there's any known metal townies for her to eat instead.

what the fuck is this shit?

I can't tell if I'm misinterpreting this or if this is actually a thing. regardless, my conclusion before I saw that was there were a few things that made me think Kagami/massive wasn't partnered (notably their interaction about "I don't know what massive thinks I am, but I'm an acid web spider", and they had a back and forth about metal fishing) but there was nothing 100% telling either way and after this I don't even fucking know anymore.

Am I going to have to put winky smilies on everything so you know I'm being sarcastic? I've maintained since practically D1 that Kagami is hunting metal and isn't town.

and now that I'm remembering things, F-16's reaction to vezok's protective softclaim back on D4 (not his hardclaim on D5) was that it was scum, despite the fact I still maintain the way vezok CC'ed was town (or at least more town than massive) and the way massive counterclaimed was weak as fuck. then I ask F-16 what he thinks about massive's CC and he goes "what's the scum motivation in massive CC'ing at this point in the game"?

I WONDER WHY THAT COULD BE

Well, as I pointed out to him, and I will point out to you now, my "CCing" was all based on all of us speculating about what our abilities did. It had zero actual abilities activated. Chandra was speculating. I was speculating. In fact, at this point we STILL have no idea what either his or my ability did / does. And, as far as I know, neither of us thought the other scummy for the discussion.

F16 HAD to call vezok scum for his counterclaim. He had just gotten the public serum and revealed his results. Vezok had some suspicion on him already and that's the only smart play F16-Survivor has there.

[massive]

Why the heck are you voting to synth F16, Kagami? What happened to this?

The synth F-16 thing is a ploy, shadoweh.

He claimed melira and wanted antihero to investigate him. Antihero would have died last night if F-16 were scum who was lying about his flavor. Melira is not metal.

There's probably three of them alive, if we mislynch today, which this kagami/massive trajectory is going for, survivor F-16 will vote insta-vote town tomorrow for a scum+survivor win.

[massive]

I guess the question is, if you believe that F16 is telling the truth about his metalness, and you believe Pie is lying about his metalness, why not put the synth somewhere where it might do something? If Pie is lying about his metalness, and we haven't seen any other scum who started out metal, doesn't it then follow that at least SOMEONE in the scum would have started out that way? Why not synth Tattletale?

[massive]

He had just gotten the public serum and revealed his results.

What post was this?

F16's claim is 4404.
Vezok's counter is 4444.
F16's response is 4472 (and, actually, both Pie and I misremembered, it's not nearly as "he's scum" as Pie made it sound).
Vezok's serumed-confidence counter is 5112.
F16's response is 5119.

[massive]

Because not everyone shares my opinion on F-16. Shadoweh, in particular, wants to synth him to be safe.

This makes no sense to me. Regardless of whether Shadoweh agrees with you, shouldn't YOU at least agree with you?

[massive]

Problem is, it deals damage to a creature too, which should be obvious in a "trying to kill it" way. It's a metal-strongarm kill. I'm not sure why you continue to try and portray it as anything else, other than you know that a metal kill makes more sense as a scum ability than as a town one.

[massive]

Problem is, it deals damage to a creature too, which should be obvious in a "trying to kill it" way. It's a metal-strongarm kill. I'm not sure why you continue to try and portray it as anything else, other than you know that a metal kill makes more sense as a scum ability than as a town one.

Because I think it's unlikely that we have more than one vig of any sort. If I were scum with what I believed to be a strongman kill, I would have claimed something innocuous.

I feel like I should have seen PeregrineV right about now.

[massive]

Interesting quoting.

Kagami

's post I quoted though, is classic WIFOM. If you're scum, we don't know WHAT you'd do, so saying you wouldn't do something as scum is kinda laughable.

[massive]

He keeps misspelling it "glad he ate."

It is no fun that we are essentially waiting on this. Yeah there's five days until deadline but we're all twiddling our thumbs here.

[massive]

Nothing spells anxiety like getting the gladiate you want and then seeing two of your scumreads hop on as the first votes. Gonna give me angina.

[massive]

Nobody asked about me. I am wicked cute.

[massive]

Welp, Tattletale is scum so ... I reckon at least

synth Tattletale

and will probably vote her in short order.

My ability turned out to be absolutely nothing like what I had hoped. It gave me the ability to target a player and neighborize them if they were also blue. Since Tattletale was the only claimed blue card out there, my choices were limited -- and my neighborize failed, which means she's lying about her role claim.

I had nothing interesting happen to me last night.

[massive]

We probably also want to actually talk about the parity of Titus / Trustworthy and if it makes sense that Trustworthy probably actually DOES go with F-16. One, I can't see why a townie role would get a clue about only one mafia team, and two, the Sunblast kill on Titus makes SO MUCH more sense when the shooter is scum and thinks Titus is town.

[massive]

My result : "Tattletale is not blue."

[massive]

I was actually sad too. The revelation of a second scum team ON TOP of the rest of this game have left me like I need to reassess pretty much everything and having at least one trustworthy (pun intended!) person to bounce ideas off of would have been helpful. The ability seems completely useless to me because we've only had one dead blue player (Chandra) and no one left is claimed blue so ... seems completely narrow and obtuse.

Might also mention there was a second part to the ability : If I successfully neighborize, I learn that player's alignment. Wasn't going to mention this to you, of course, unless you turned out townie, but now there seems to be ZERO targets for this ability, so no reason not to put it all out there.

Here's where we are:

2. PeregrineV : Garruk, with proven gladiate ability, and no thematic ties to either party
4. massive
6. Kagami : claimed metal-eater with a metal-eater ability -- now looks more likely to be Mirrodin-Pure-aligned
7. Tattletale : claimed Venser but isn't
11. Shadoweh : proven serum-giver but no idea on alignment any more
16. pieguyn : claimed Karn
19. Lord Mhork : red card (Spikeshot Elder) with red ability card (Fervor) that has absolutely zero ties to his messaging ability

Thoughts on Shadoweh:

If she's aligned with F-16 (which would have to be where she fits, for parity), why on earth does she serum Vezok during the F-16 / Vezok counterclaim? What's the best-case scenario there? Vezok has some non-doc ability and slinks out with his tail between his legs and confirms F-16 as the only doc in the game?

If she's aligned with F-16, how does she sanction the entire last two days of F-16's gameplay? He basically gives us a bunch of the setup we are ignorant of, but we figured it was part of some gambit.

Trustworthy / Shadoweh serum targets:
D1 Muffin
D2 Pixel
D3 Pixel
D4 Vezok
D5 Chandra
D6 Kagami

[massive]

It's only a bad claim if you assume Tattletale even KNEW about the Mirrodin Pure team. As far as we know, the Phyrexians were just as in the dark about the second team as we were, since it seemed everyone was pretty sure Ludi had shot Titus. Do you have some reason to believe that Tattletale is on the same team as F-16?

[massive]

I'm sorry, are you suggesting F-16 was my buddy?
I don't even know what to say to that. My hydra partner replaced out after fighting with him, remember? :V

Well, I know I said more than "we need to discuss it" so you tell me, what AM I suggesting?

[massive]

Just some random thoughts.

Shadoweh

: At what point did you decide that Kagami was your serum-recipient yesterday?

Pie

: If you think I'm scum, how likely do you think it is that Tattletale and I are on the same team?

Tattletale

: Why isn't the obvious answer "massive is scum"? Why are you polling the peanut gallery?

Pie

: In 6163, you continue to think I'm some sort of flavor godfather. Considering we just had F-16 flip as scum with a Mirrodin watermark, how on earth can you possibly still think this and push this?

Kagami

: The ONLY person in this game that I trust as town right now is PV. Why in 6164 do you trust me or Shadoweh more than PV?

[massive]

I don't disagree that Kagami is scum, probably Mirrodin Pure.

I don't think F16 had a fakeclaim. I think he concocted quite a silly storyline to stay alive -- remember that, while his story about being a survivor was false, he still was able to truthfully claim to be Melira, which makes me believe that they had no need for fakeclaims. For all we know, he might have actually been immune to a New Phyrexian night kill even! And so I suspect that the Mirrodin Pure team has no metal, and in exchange got roles that flavorfully indicate they are town. (Again, see Melira's Mirrodin watermark.)

So what I mean by "pushing me as a flavor godfather" is that to me, it seems like your agenda is still that I might

singly

be someone given a role that can be cleared by our flavor cop. If you're looking for a single scum with a flavor clear, why isn't that F-16?

Kagami has spent the entire game trying to figure out who's metal and who's not. You can look at my ISO as I've brought it up numerous times. She claims to have a metal kill. Is there something you can point to that would indicate she's a metal metalkiller? Because while I agree she's scum, I also think she's probably pretty close to what she says she is, and is Mirrodin Pure, and therefore probably not metal.

[massive]

Pie I get, because he's scum. I don't really understand why you think I'm scum, though, massive.

Also, I don't really agree that peregrin is super obv-town given the F-16 flip. Shadoweh being town implies that one scumteam is "left pissing in the wind" as antihero had so eloquently put it, so it would make a lot of sense if he were scum. Pie has to call him town because he needs to buddy the gladiate power regardless of its alignment, but why do you think he obv-town?

I have thought you were scum all game, and I don't think I've made any bones about it. I've consistently said you have been hunting metal all game, and I can't see any reason that you would do that other than you need to take out the town metal to win. I initially thought you to be a third-party but now it seems less likely, given the revelation of a second scum faction. The fact that your ability fits in thematically with the Mirrodin Pure faction is just icing on the cake.

I don't see what the connection is between Peregrine and F16's flip. Do you think Garruk is aligned with Mirrodin Pure?

[massive]

So you're saying you, me, and Shadoweh are town. You're saying PV, despite having a non-Mirrodin role, fits in with Mirrodin Pure. Where do the rest of the players fit then?

I really want to go back and reread from the F16 fakeclaim through to now, but I'm not sure I have the eyes for it today.

Regarding you metal-hunting: See my ISO for pretty much any discussion of you as 3P, because I believed you were a Ravager-style 3P with a win condition that was metal-dependent. Your synth vote history was pretty horrible, with your vote landing on non-metal claims A LOT. However, I will grant you that it looked more like you were finding metal to eat later, and not finding metal opposing scum to synth, so I don't know how that's helpful to you as scum.

[massive]

Shadoweh

: Why did you pick Kagami for your serum-giving, as opposed to Pie, who's claim is metal vig and who defended you all day yesterday?

Kagami

: What's the interesting thing that happened last night?

[massive]

The SUNBLAST kill goes with the Mirrodin Pure team. I think there has to be two factions.

[massive]

Need to read pie and Kagami's updates and mull a bit but wanted to answer this real quickly.

The SUNBLAST kill goes with the Mirrodin Pure team. I think there has to be two factions.

My issue with that is how is there not MORE kills?

I think at this point we have to chalk it up to bad targeting. Muffin and Anti were both metal to start, and were probably targeted in the early nights. It definitely doesn't go with the NPHREX team because it killed Titus. I imagine it could be something like "scum+1+1" but I think that, if that were the case, someone would have come out and claimed killing Titus early D2, which would have caused an entirely different game since Ludi could have counterclaimed them.

[massive]

when F-16 first claimed doc he claimed eternal witness, not melira. that indicates mirrodin pure scum had fakeclaims.

A good point that I forgot. But why? Throw it on the pile of questions that may or may not be relevant to solving the game, I reckon.

Kagami might not be metal, but at this point if there is any metal on F-16's team it necessarily has to be her. that, combined with the fact she claimed not metal, means there's literally no reason not to synth her today.

Who do you think is on F16's team that allows you to say this? If you answer it in the big chunk, I'm reading that next.

[massive]

The problem with all of this "Kagami ignores F16's attacks on Shadoweh" stuff is that it (a) didn't help prevent F16's lynch and (2) doesn't distance Kagami from F16 when he eventually flipped scum. So yeah, we get it, she's probably scum on F16's team, but didn't we already believe that? The giant wall of text doesn't really draw any new conclusions. Who's Kagami's third? If Tattletale goes with the NPHREX scum, who's her third? Those are the questions we need answered.

[massive]

While I'm glad you're being critical of pie's nonsense, I'm not scum of any sort -____-

Doesn't it raise alarm bells that all of pie's "kagami is obvscum" arguments actually make no sense? He's just throwing lots and lots of words at everyone in the hopes that you don't think about them.

I don't have to think about what pie is saying. If we assume 3 v 2 v 2 right now, and I know I'm town and I implicitly trust PV, you actually need to argue that you're more likely to be town than Shadoweh, so get on that.

[massive]

Shadoweh: Who would you suggest we serum and synth, if we lynch Mhork? Why?

[massive]

Pie: if you think Kagami's claim is bullshit (6280) what do you think her ability did? If you think Tattletale is metal and Kagami did NOT synth her last night, why are you not trying to synth Tattletale? Do you believe they could BOTH be metal?

[massive]

It's unlikely you'll convince anyone you're not scum, ProHawk. Best you can do is own it and figure out who's on the opposing team. Also, if you want to tell us your actual role card and ability card, that would make a lot of things make more sense.

[massive]

I'm not. Your predecessor used his ability N1. Did you get the full information from that event? Is there any additional information from it that you want to share?

[massive]

Shadoweh: You believe Pie is town? If it's 3v2v2, who's the other townie?

[massive]

it's also theoretically better to lynch someone whose alignment is confirmed

So it's agreed we're lynching Tattletale then?

[massive]

Why would the team with the serum-giver get the role that doesn't need serum?

Shadoweh: can you answer my 6288?

[massive]

Stream of consciousness to see if I can see any conflicts.

If Shadoweh is town: Doesn't know about second kill team yesterday, so still operating that there should be 2-3 NPHREX remaining. Kagami as metal eater is a good serum at least in theory. Likely outcome: Kagami-scum now knows (has always known?) about the second scum team and has to use her ability to help take out the opposing team. That would put the teams at {F16-Pie-Kagami} and {Titus-Mhork-Tattletale}. Faking a result on Pie seems like it's less helpful to their win con than not actually synthing Tattletale.

{F16-Kagami-Tattletale} doesn't work because that puts Pie, a claimed metal, on the other team and makes a way better target for Kagami's ability.

Shadoweh is scum: Known town has useless abilities and she can't risk giving serum to the other team at this point, so the teams are {Shadoweh-F16-Kagami} and probably {Titus-Mhork-Tattletale}.

Basically I'm trying to confirm in my head that there's no way Kagami and Tattletale are same-team, because I don't think we can waste a lynch on a metal at this point.

[massive]

Massive: I am never going to answer your questions about me, I don't care what your opinion is of me because you're likely the nice scum at this point.

This boggles my mind. I think that you have now been suspicious of Every Single Person left in the game during this game day. I can't imagine this is the time to keep your reads close to your chest.

The only sort-of-reasonable synth is pie, but as long as he's synthed tomorrow as the only viable synth target left, that doesn't matter.

This is interesting to me. Why is pie a better synth tomorrow rather than today?

[massive]

synth Pie

vote Tattletale

I cannot see any reason "waiting until tomorrow" to synth Pie is a good thing, despite Kagami's suggestion. Even if we hope that the scumteams crosskill tonight, we can't get to a point where it's 2-1-1 tomorrow -- we'll never synth and lynch then. So I think I have to at least let Shadoweh be town for another night, which means we gotta synth Pie.

[massive]

1. at this point you have acknowledged that Kagami is mirrodin pure scum and that she's not on the same team as Tattletale. so what exactly is your view of the gamestate that you think synthing me is a good idea?

NPHREX: Tattletale, Mhork/Prohawk
MPURE: Kagami, Pie

Kagami's actions speak louder than her words. If you guys were on different teams, she'd either have to synth you or get serum and demetal you herself to win. She had the opportunity to do that last night and didn't. There's no reason to pick Tattletale in that spot and leave you for later except WIFOM.

2. why are you ignoring the fact that based on role symmetry there has to be metal on mirrodin pure team, and that it necessarily has to be Kagami by POE?

Why are you ignoring the fact that based on role symmetry Shadoweh is scum? And how do you not see that TO US the metal MPURE could be you by your very argument above?

[massive]

Hi Tattletale. What's your actual role and ability?

[massive]

So wait. SHADOWEH REALLY IS TOWN? I think that may be the most shocking revelation so far today.

Pie

: How many kill attempts did you fail on MPURE in comparison to town?

Kagami

: Well I guess since we didn't synth Pie, you better be sure to shoot his teammate tonight.

[massive]

We don't need to synth ProHawk as he used to be Mhork and we already synthed him.

[massive]

Man, I don't know. Knowing that Tattletale and Pie are on opposite teams kinda throws a wrench in my thought process and I just don't see any reason why, if Kagami is scum with Tattletale, why she wouldn't use her ability -- whatever it is -- on Pie instead of claiming to use it on Tattletale. I think it's gotta be {Pie Titus ProHawk} but from there ... I gotta think about it. Maybe go back and do some more reading. I also want to go back and look at Tattletale's claimed non-serum ability.

[massive]

Tattle could be fake-bashing Pie, who could be same team and fake-bashing town-Kagami. Do you think this is what's going on?

How does it help Tattletale to claim to be from MPURE if she's from NPHREX? How does it help Pie to claim to be from NPHREX if he's from MPURE? I realize we have to take everything they say with a grain of salt, but in either case, they're only deceiving half the other players, and that's probably not enough to hit their wincon because now the other scumteam knows where the lines are.

Speculating on why scum did nor did not use their ability on other scum is ???

I assume you meant to type "helpful" here because, really, how else are we supposed to judge what alignment Kagami is, and how those scumteams might be made up?

So which kills failed?

N1 zmuffin
N2 Trustworthy
N3 Trustworthy
N6 Kagami

Wow, this is kinda huge information. We were operating on the premise that the Sunblast was the only MPURE kill condition -- but we know Muffin was smashed N2, which makes that also an MPURE kill. And since smash doesn't go with Melira and we had a Sunblast after F16 was dead ... yeah, there's a third MPURE left.

Massive: There is not a :V big enough for you.

Let's face it, you are the PRIME candidate for having done the Titus kill -- you already said you didn't believe her claim, and based it off the "confirmed town" portion of the role PM. Killing her, knowing she was lying and that you were scum, worked out either way for you - if she was town, then serum-giver is an easy target, and if she's scum, then you're conftown for the rest of the game.

[massive]

Yeah but not that it was town. I'm not saying you didn't believe her. I'm saying that an MPURE Blinkmoth, with knowledge that there is a second scum team, would be the most likely person to take that shot.

It's immaterial. I'm not trying to fight with you here. Just trying to outline where my brain was. Like I said, I have had many OUT THERE theories about setup this game, and they just take some ironing out.

[massive]

Going home from work but wanted to leave this for myself. Anything to gain from it?

NPHREX:

N1 zmuffin
N2 Trustworthy
N3 Trustworthy
N4 pixel
N5 Chandra
N6 Kagami

MPURE:

N1 Titus
N2 Muffin
N3 Majiffy
N4
N5 Vezok
N6 Antihero

[massive]

Where does the "can't kill AND use an ability in the same night" information come from?

[massive]

The only possible NPHREX that got serum was Mhork. And Tattletale, you realize that if you expect us to believe that you're the last MPURE, you have to be the sunblast kill which would make F16 use his serum ability and make a kill the same night, right?

[massive]

Actually I understand what you're saying and I'm off there. I'm saying what you're saying. Ha. Long day.

[massive]

##Synth: no one

Why this, Shadoweh? How do we win without getting rid of the metal scum? At the very least, Pie has claimed both metal and scum.

Nope, mirrodin pure killed pixel.

Kill flavor sure looks NPHREX. Why do you think this is true? This kill was done to prevent Pixel from taking metal back away from Mhork.

[massive]

Kagami, you're so naughty. Wait, did we really not synth Pie? Oh for Pete's sake.

[massive]

You guys are too cute, hatching your scum plans, watching your anime. So uh

synth Pie

I imagine ProMhork is the lynch.

[massive]

Why are you deliberately miscounting night kills, peregrin?

He's not. Even with both you and Pie alive tonight, there's really only one townie you can shoot at.

[massive]

I did think he might be some sort of planeswalker-killer. We just had no proof of any other planeswalkers when he first gladiated. He's killed one in mortal combat already (Koth) ... but he can't gladiate Pie with a good result until we synth Pie, so tomorrow all looks the same anyways.

[massive]

Glissa had a spark but never became a planeswalker. Not important really since we have no confirmation either way. But yes, currently Garruk is hunting other planeswalkers after finally succumbing to the Curse of the Veil.

[massive]

Shadoweh, do you want to synth Kagami, or should we go ahead and vote it?

[massive]

Shadoweh, do you want to synth Kagami, or should we go ahead and vote it?

Vote... kagami? Have you been paying no attention at all? <_< We're voting prohawk.

Synth with the vote. Not lynch. Come on now.

[massive]

We synth'd kagami yesterday and I just hammersynthed pie today. <_< My previous question stands.

Ha. I meant serum. I can vote ProMhork any time.

[massive]

Because I'm waiting to see how Shadoweh wants to serum Kagami. Probably should do it in-thread.

serum Kagami

[massive]

vote ProHawk

[massive]

I think it's just exhaustion at this 280-plus-page game and that pretty much all our day actions are sorted. Not much more to do but get to night and see how it shakes out.