Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[Serenes Forest]

My role is negative utility so target me at your own discretion.
Not sure about spellcards but roles appear to be very closely tied to flavor so I advise against claiming characters.

##Vote: SB

His first thought in the game revolves around bussing which is pretty indicative of a scum mindset, in his home forum it might have been the usual joke regardless of alignment but he's less likely to joke about his hardbussing meta as town in a community that doesn't really recognize that meta yet, and he isn't that involved with.

[Serenes Forest]

Can you link games outside SF where you brought up the joke as town?

[Serenes Forest]

only the ones in the last 6 months or so matter so it shouldn't take long to check

[Serenes Forest]

That's not a game outside SF though so it doesn't really help

I'm also not seeing anything of the sort in the first couple of posts, bringing it up a couple of times throughout a mafia game with a community that's fully in on the joke is not the same as bringing it up first post in a community that's more likely to not get it

[Serenes Forest]

Because it's making the joke out of a social context that's used to your meta is what makes it relevant to be able to tell whether the thought process comes from scum thinking about whether or not to bus this game or town.

The replies in themselves don't really help but I figure you'd doublecheck your meta references as scum considering you've spent long periods of time looking for games where you haven't bussed your buddies to reference in other games so eh

##Unvote

##Vote: Shadoweh

[Serenes Forest]

That's not it though

One would be less likely to make a bussing injoke in an unfamiliar environment, and in that case having your first thoughts on the game revolve around bussing would indicate scum mindset, town don't think about bussing in RVS, they think about finding a way to get the game going.
In his homeforum everybody understands the bussing injoke, so the relevance of early talk about bussing in determining mindset is heavily diluted, which is why past games from there don't help.

The reason why this is a thing is that it happened before:
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... msg1112652
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... msg1112703

[Serenes Forest]

##Vote: Refa

SUPER BUSSER

##Vote: SB

Actually I'm kinda bothered that SB's first thoughts about the game were wrt bussing. The game where SB and Refa rolled buddies together (and where SB bussed Refa hard all game and won) is not particularly recent so I don't see any reason for town!SB to be itching to bring it up unless he really wanted to introduce MotK to the joke, which I don't get the impression that he'd care much for.

Like I said though I don't think SB would reply as absentmindedly as he did if he were scum, we have a group chat where he mentioned playing an offsite game and spending a lot of time looking for a game to showcase as meta of him not bussing his buddies.

[Serenes Forest]

There's a skype group chat where SF forumites gather and talk about things. We talk about ongoing mafia games we're in only if we're the only ones in the chat that are in the game period or left alive in the game if a couple joined and all but one died already, so that was a reference to when SB played an offsite game by himself like a month ago.

I probably should've mentioned that I guess? if the mod wants access to the SF group chat to make sure that no rules are broken I can do that but we've played mafia for long enough that people know not to be lame.

[Serenes Forest]

Town wouldn't have done it because it doesn't make sense to state an injoke in circumstances where barely anybody gets it, in retrospect the wording looks harmless but having been right about this tell before it didn't seem that way to me at the time.

thdg hasn't read my posts properly and my last 3 posts should clarify why I initially thought SB was scum and don't really think so anymore.

@Skypal I don't want to keep my vote on somebody who I don't think is scum, SB is more calculating and careful as scum and it doesn't make sense for him to be so quick to respond and fuck up his meta reference in the process unless he's drugged or similar. Explaining my current vote would kill the whole point of the vote, I'll do so when Shadoweh has had the chance to post.

@Muffin what are your thoughts on the game? you seem to suspect me based on #48 but your vote hasn't moved since your first post

@Relentless GiF made an empty statement about a read and Hana made a couple of empty questions, neither has explained where they were coming from so why is one active lurking and not the other?

[Serenes Forest]

I'm guessing this is a site thing where people withhold their reads and vote for strategy purposes? My problem reading muffin extends to most of the other mafiascum players who haven't made clear read statements.

cut by I guess not, I'll be sleeping then.

[Serenes Forest]

Skypal's list is pretty incomplete. MotK/SF players include

-Skypal
-Shadoweh
-ActionDan
-thdg
-Kilgamayan
-Rylai Crestfall
-SB
-Serenes Forest

Only SB and thdg know who I am for certain because this isn't the name I normally use, but I figure Kilga, Shadoweh and Dan will probably find out eventually

Shadoweh vote was partly wagonbuilding for the sake of reactions and partly expectation to see a difference in attitude when reacting to the wagon with town!Shadoweh shrugging it off nonchalantly and scum!Shadoweh being more likely to show some sort of annoyance when trying to shrug it off because it brings unwanted attention to herself.
There's a difference between not explaining something because you're waiting for reactions that would easily change if you announced your intent before you get a response and being cryptic in general for reasons unspecified. It's cool that not stating reads hasn't become a trend though.

I can see why people are voting skypal because saying SB was reckless when posting about bussing doesn't make sense, it could only be reckless if he was self-conscious about it and did it anyway, and he isn't self-conscious at all. I don't really think I'd vote Skypal over his odd cases though, asking me why I voted Shadoweh before voting me makes enough sense from a town perspective and he's definitely the type to get upset over reasonings being withheld from the thread so eh. If he's making shit up it'll become obvious in the long run.

I like Mala's #243, her thought processes are pretty transparent and looking back at her interactions with notscience she looks really focused on getting a solid read on him as opposed to buddying or distancing.

thdg's #245 calls me out for voting Shadoweh instead of somebody who had already posted, but there was nothing really going on at the time other than people asking me questions? He fails to acknowledge that he didn't talk about anybody not!me until like 2 hours ago himself so I'm wondering why he thinks I should've had clear suspicions when I can't be expected to join my own wagon.

Lily does not like Serene Forest's cases and how a lot of them seem to be based on people not being clear about who they think are scummy.

This didn't happen though?
I complained that people weren't being clear about who they thought was scummy because nothing posted by mafiascum players at the time felt alignment indicative and clarity would've helped with reads. If it were a case that would've meant I called all mafiascum players scum together which is silly so ??? What do you think of the rest of the playerbase?

Relentless is reading like a more aggressive and disagreeable version of thdg's playstyle back in the day and it's making him hard to read. His Shadoweh scumread seems to stem from disagreement into confirmation bias rather than actual looking for scum intent, like, even if Shadoweh had a townread on me it's still not even halfway through D1 so why is she expected to have such conviction in her read that she'd "try harder to disassemble the wagon"?

Disagree with Muffin's statements that my SB vote shouldn't have happened in the first place because I wouldn't have gotten a better read on him if I hadn't done it. Was slightly bothered by the sarcasm last night but I like his latest posts.

@Kilga if you had only one vote where would it be? Same @Hana

[Serenes Forest]

even if Shadoweh had a townread on me it's still not even halfway through D1 so why is she expected to have such conviction in her read that she'd "try harder to disassemble the wagon"?

Like, I can understand why it wouldn't apply to Pie in particular because he's been actively discussing people's reads on the wagon, but there's SB and other people who voiced townreads similarly to Shadoweh and they weren't held to the same standard as her so it feels oddly selective.

Also @Skypal

I can see why people are voting skypal because saying SB was reckless when posting about bussing doesn't make sense, it could only be reckless if he was self-conscious about it and did it anyway, and he isn't self-conscious at all.

You said that I voted SB because he was reckless (posting about his bussing meta) and unvoted him because he was reckless (posting the wrong meta in response), what I mean here is that SB's post about his bussing meta can't be reckless because he wasn't conscious that doing so would be a potential tell against him. The whole point behind the case would've been void if he hadn't posted it unconsciously so there was never an assumption that SB posted recklessly or that he was scum because of recklessness.

[Serenes Forest]

wrt massclaim and announcing spellcards I'd rather not, at least not until D2 or D3, reasons should be obvious when claims happen.

If I haven't mentioned people it's because I don't have a clear read on them, would like to see more posts from Gaiden in particular because I can't parse literally anything from his posts. Can anybody MS run me through the differences between his town play and scum play?

[Serenes Forest]

rip ;/

Can you talk a bit about one person you think is more likely town and one person you think is more likely scum?

[Serenes Forest]

Ok gotta head back to the lab this is my longest break in forever

##Unvote

@GiF what do you think of thdg? he's the only one I'd vote for atm but I want to hear your opinion first

[Serenes Forest]

Just a heads up I probably won't have as much time as I expected to play. This is gonna continue for at least the next 2 months and while I could postpone it I really shouldn't, so idk if I'll manage to keep playing catch-up for long

With that out of the way I don't think Dan has even made posts like these before, like holy shit. I really like his #458 because I had the same thoughts about Kagami's vote timing when reading through the Sakura/Pie/Kagami exchange. I specially don't like the way Kagami voted first and explained later only after being prodded for it, it feels like they forced a conclusion early because they were actively participating in the conversation and were looking to match pie's growing suspicion. Outside of that 90% of their posts are some variant of setupspec, mod meta or the like which is easy stuff to comment on as scum to mask noncontent and appear active.

##Vote: Kagami

Also disliking Sakura because she's actively posting but extremely passive, I can only recall her posting when it's in reply to people's thoughts about her or questions she's being asked, and both of her scumreads (me, Rylai) seem to come up only after being pressured to voice an opinion by people pushing her for answers on very specific questions (muffin's 321 and pie's 420) while ignoring more general ones (mine in 285). She also seems to have switched onto voting scumreads after relentless called her out on using her votes to seal day abilities instead of voting who she thinks is scum so her whole game comes across as passive and reactionary. MS people should probably let me know if this is her usual thing.

I'm pretty sure Relentless has read/played games in MotK before and he's just fucking with everyone for the fun of it, Shadoweh meta, SB = serious bananas and asking things to Dan before everyone else (because he barely posts at all when playing in MotK) can't all be coincidences sorry :V
That said I really don't like his playstyle and could count the amount of times he's said stuff I agreed with in one hand but eh, his #374 and #447 do read genuine, specifically the questions aimed at SB, Rylai and Shadoweh, so I just kinda hope he drops the threats/aggressive attitude in general because there are other ways to exert pressure and it just makes him harder to read.

My point against thdg earlier doesn't stand anymore seeing I missed his #253, ultimately think he's like 90% town but I still don't agree with his reads on me or Pie.
@thdg wrt your "can't read the future" stuff in #245 and #399 I did restate my reason for dropping SB in #67 after your #65, but the originally stated reason is there in #47 so I don't see how you couldn't have understood why I unvoted SB

I figure you'd doublecheck your meta references as scum considering you've spent long periods of time looking for games where you haven't bussed your buddies to reference in other games so
eh

Still think SB is town, for more "SB wouldn't be this careless as scum" Skypal should read through the first page on SCP mafia and see how he reacted to early votes on him as scum there. If SB were scum this game do you think he'd panic in response to an ED1 vote and make up meta stuff that doesn't exist considering that I could check it easily and very much implied that I would? If so how would that response make sense with both of us being scum?
Currently agree with Shadoweh that Skypal is probably Confirmation Biased As Shit because all of his reads revolve around himself and his vote and there doesn't seem to be any thought going on towards the rest of the game.

Don't really have a solid opinion on Rylai, I think he's more likely town than not based on how he replied to stuff relatively early in 366 and 409 instead of lurking for a third of the phase before doing so but reading activity patterns in 8 day phases is pretty useless when we're used to 72h

General impressions
Town: thdg = GiF >> Dan
Minor Town: SB = Kilga = Mala >> Pie
Dunno (need more posts): Rylai, Drezi, notscience, Ankamius, Gaiden, Shadoweh
Dunno (can't get a proper read despite content): Relentless, Muffin, Skypal
Scum: Kagami >> Sakura

cut by like a whole page of posts

[Serenes Forest]

@Serenes: So basically you don't like Kagami who voted me for the reasons you're not liking me and think I'm scum, yet you're voting her?... wth kinda logic is that.

Thinking scumpairs without a flip is dumb, I just think -slot- and -slot- are more likely to be scum than the rest of the game right now.
I can already see somebody calling me a hypocrite for asking Skypal if he really thinks SB and I are buddies so I'll point you back to his post where he explicitly states that he thinks SB defended me because we're buddies and defended Rylai because they're buddies.

cuts

[Serenes Forest]

Kagami's reasoning is also nowhere near being similar to mine so I don't know where you got that from

[Serenes Forest]

Like the only point in common I can see is that Kagami mentioned that you'd be more interested in voting scum than voting to seal abilities and I noted that you switched strategies after Relentless posted about it which is still noticeably different? what is there that's the same?

Also when I asked if this was usually your thing I was referring to passive play where you only really post if somebody's asking you questions, not about the doublevote daycard-seal thing

[Serenes Forest]

I'm not even talking about associations, you're just saying Kagami is scum for the way she voted me, yet the reasons she voted me are the same reasons you think i'm scum for, ergo shouldn't you think she's town since she has the same mindset as you OR think im town since you dont like how she voted me?

If this were a thing I'd think Pie and SB are town while the rest of the game is scum just because I don't agree with their assertion that I'm scum. People post townreads and scumreads but what really matters isn't who the read is on or what way it's going but what the intent is behind posting those reads.

I think I made it pretty clear that the reason why I think Kagami is scum is the way they went about the vote and not the reasoning behind the vote

[Serenes Forest]

Even then it's still not the same as Relentless' point because my point revolves around how you reacted to his point but eh
Try not to take it too personally, mafia's just a fun game where people yell at each other!

Also @Ankamius why is Kilga a problem slot? You didn't mention him at all before putting him in there.

was reading but got a phone call I'll be busy for a bit

[Serenes Forest]

Nevermind i went to look back at Kagami's reasons, and the one that has similar reasons to Kagami is Relentless not you. My bad.

Just noticed I misread this as me having reasons similar to relentless and not kagami to relentless, go me

I found myself siding with Anka throughout the short Anka/Muffin exchange, really liked where his push came from even though I found Muffin's replies to be pretty clear and agreeable by the end of it.

Not seeing Mala's townread on Sakura unless it's a meta thing, I'd really just appreciate somebody telling me about Sakura's meta in general because I don't have the time to read through whole games right now.

[Serenes Forest]

It's cool that you like IIoA as much as you apparently do, Muffin, because just glancing at Kagami's ISO should provide you with enough to last you for a couple of years!

@PX and Drezi, don't get discouraged by somebody belittling you just because they think they're better than you at the game of ~words~ and keep posting and playing, I don't really care what alignment you are, you guys aren't doing as bad as people are claiming and just need to post a little more often so show us what you've got!

[Serenes Forest]

Oh I do, and setupspec and modmeta shenanigans don't constitute scumhunting in any scenario where there are yet any night results to go by.
Literally says so on the mafiascum wiki definition ""players who speculate about the setup more than they ask for other players' reasoning and/or accuse other players of being scum are probably group scum"

Going to sleep now

[Serenes Forest]

I got that if Kagami does this usually it probably isn't as telling as I gave it credit for but I found it dishonest and deliberately antagonizing that you wanted to defend it as not-IIoA when frequently engaging in setupspec is literally the definition of IIoA

I don't think you're scum but I'm kind of miffed at the fact that I didn't sign up to play a game with GreyICE and got to play a game with GreyICE

[Serenes Forest]

If you're going to demonstrate that somebody else's ISO is more dominated by setupspec/modmeta/cardusage/non-scumhunting related information with no regard for what your personal opinion is on the quality of their scumhunting then it would probably be a productive exercise.

Otherwise don't worry because I'll either reread tomorrow if I'm still here or somebody else will take my slot. On top of time constraints there's a threat of a(nother) big commotion going on at my girlfriend's apartment any day and I have to help out with looking for a new place for her to stay so rip mafia

[Serenes Forest]

Don't take that as a jab at your playstyle because I had still resolved to keep playing despite the GreyICE posts until I got notice of shit going on.

That said you'd be tons better at the game if you tried to be equally convicing while treating your fellow players better

[Serenes Forest]

Rylai is an MotK player but I don't have much/any contact with him so it's not that I'm salty because you dared to insult him in particular, I just found it in poor taste that you'd treat outsiders (Rylai), newer players (Drezi) and other MS forumites (Pie) like that. My reason for replacing out remains as time issues I'm going to have starting 30 minutes ago but the above doesn't really help the decision.

GreyICE played in MotK once and became pretty infamous, never played here before as should be confirmable by SB/thdg/Prims who is clearly spectating the game

[Serenes Forest]

@Serene,

Who exactly do you think I insulted? Unless you think me calling Rylai low-hanging fruit, which he is in this game, is an insult?

"wasn't because you dared to insult" <- not the accusation
"treated badly" <- the accusation

I'd take it to PMs because it's not relevant to the game now and I already sent my PM to Fakegod but I don't think that's legal by MS standards. I was making a big deal about this as I replaced out hoping to make you reflect and think twice in the future but seeing how you defensively tried to argue the semantics of it I don't think this will be getting anywhere.