Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[zMuffinMan]

Like, if he's town, what the fuck was he expecting to happen this game?

If it's activated off NKs, was he somehow hoping to both avoid being lynched AND not be enough of a threat to scum that they thought he was a worthwhile kill? You *should* be claiming it D1 and letting yourself get vig killed. Double night N1/N2 is *not* necessarily a bad thing in a role madness game.

If it's activated off lynches, then FUCKING CLAIM IT, don't keep it hidden.

[zMuffinMan]

if you're not trolling, then that is the most theoretically unsound thing you can do

if it's activated off lynches, it should be claimed in your first post

if it's activated off NKs and lynches, it needs to be claimed D1 anyway because, really, avoiding lynches and NKs, investigation-immunity, etc

[zMuffinMan]

i mean especially in your case, AD, because youre vigbait anyway, so may as well get it over with N1

[zMuffinMan]

miller is theoretically different

in 99% of games it won't matter if youre playing correctly anyway (plus you still crumbed it like there was no tomorrow)

there is no correct way to play a beloved princess except for claiming it.

[zMuffinMan]

No. He loves Beloved Princesses.

I've had this discussion with him before. And told him how much I loathe them.

(But I know he'd put in a ton of town power if he included an investigation-immune one.)

[zMuffinMan]

Subject: Alice in Wonderland Dead PT

i mean beloved princess that triggers off night kills, you have to (a) not get night killed, (b) not get lynched, and (c) not get investigated by a scum PR ORRRRRRRRRRRRR you fuck town over sooner or later (the later the worse, town got somewhat lucky he died N1 instead of, say, last night)

But I like the role! Enough to run it once in awhile, anyways. (I was a Beloved Princess in the 2nd Large Theme game I've played here, and I had a very good time)

It's balanced against meticulously in this setup though, with biggest counterbalance being that there are only 3 scum members.

[zMuffinMan]

that would be true if there were 3 scum

but that's even more reason to lynch him. it gives us a better idea about the setup fakegod is likely to have created, because im not sure 15:4 with beloved princess + your ability to end the day early (essentially meaning 3 night phases in a row) makes sense

and there's very little harm if it's 16:3 because numbers

[zMuffinMan]

that said, it's probably 15:4

[zMuffinMan]

14.5 was right

[zMuffinMan]

is shadoweh even going to be back before the deadline?

[zMuffinMan]

I hope you realize that Shadoweh could have just used it when they were both at 4 for lynches if she wasn't lying about her card, just why does she still not use it?

if you're not around before the deadline, shadoweh, you answer this in your first post tomorrow

whatever

don't give a shit

i'm a stump and i wash my branches of this game if people who are doing silly things are actually town

just make sure a fucking AD lynch happens, if nothing else.

[zMuffinMan]

sure

[zMuffinMan]

i doubt it will be granted given it's technically our fault (read: all of you who can actually vote) for letting the day phase drag out this long

but you can ask anyway

[zMuffinMan]

well mostly the fault of the people who spent 8 days not voting

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

oh, five days*

[zMuffinMan]

did pieguy's shot shorten the deadline by 3 days?

[zMuffinMan]

doesn't look like it, why did this day have a 5 day deadline?

meh

[zMuffinMan]

welllll you did say you were going to sleep or something so

[zMuffinMan]

i was just considering everything that could possibly go wrong in this game and realising, "oh, great, you know what would make this better? if shadoweh wasn't around"

[zMuffinMan]

ok. that's understandable. it's probably an unnecessary precaution, but it's understandable. and ankamius really should be voting AD. since he was around in the last 12 or so hours and just for some reason is still not voting, but whatever

[zMuffinMan]

unless that was a twilight use card, AD, that action didn't go through

[zMuffinMan]

my pick list should be in the dead thread since fakegod said he'd make roles for each of them not currently in the game (which i'd guess is basically all of them)

unfortunately, i am not granted the sweet embrace of death so i must wait til post-game to see them :<

[zMuffinMan]

that reminds me

HEY CUPCAKE

you know what i didn't see in your claim?

a good reason for asking not to be targeted N1

because that's about the only reason i didn't select you as a target N1.

[zMuffinMan]

THIS IS A GOOD TIME TO DISCLAIM
INVESTIGATIVE AND PROTECTIVE ROLES SHOULD

NOT

TARGET ME TONIGHT
PREFERABLY ONLY SKYP DOES

considering all you apparently did was neighbourise ooba

explain

[zMuffinMan]

no

[zMuffinMan]

theoretically it's more beneficial for scum to kill a beloved princess later than earlier

when more information about roles is available, you can make better night action decisions

conversely, in a game where most useful abilities are 1-shot, a double-night to town later in the game isn't a whole lot of use

[zMuffinMan]

(plus surprise lylo and stuff if he doesn't claim it, since no role flips and whatnot)

[zMuffinMan]

Please claim everything about your role cupcake

And don't give me shit about how I'm being a jerk or it's unnecessary or only VIs claim

Regardless of how super fantastically awesome your role may be, we both know if you're town you're never being NKed so just claim

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not claiming and there's nothing you can do to make me.

[zMuffinMan]

Sorry, was channeling my inner cupcake there for a moment.

[zMuffinMan]

we started with 19 and there's been several million night kills so yeah 9 left

[zMuffinMan]

on another note, i sincerely doubt scum can repeatedly double kill (and if a town player was responsible for one of those kills they should really claim it), so i'm thinking we have 4 chances to hit scum.

3 at worst if there's multiple double kills left (in which case, :< fakegod.... :<)

i'd like to end it in one, but we'll see, i guess

[zMuffinMan]

that is why i said if there's a town player who caused it (or i should have said possibly caused it, even if unintentionally) they should claim it

though this seems irrelevant if a mass claim is going to occur so whatevs

[zMuffinMan]

i told myself "if we lynch AD+town player yesterday, i read the game in depth overnight and reassess things. if we lynch AD+scum player, fuck it. yolo. etc"

i came into today expecting walls from pieguy detailing who the last scum is, where all i had to do was tick the checkboxes and sign my name. i am disappointed, pieguy. i am disappointed

[zMuffinMan]

wellllllll if ffery is reading the game, hopefully she can do pieguy's job and tell me who's scum

i'm kind of interested in a fresh perspective on interactions, anyway

[zMuffinMan]

well there's like 1 scum left and 3 flipped so magua-style replacing isn't as effective imo but whatevs

[zMuffinMan]

Catching up!

LAL

[zMuffinMan]

gif was not-really-but-effectively-masons with thd apparently

- SB has innos on him and fakegod explicitly said at the end of last game he wasn't going to do godfathers anymore. See:

Subject: Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

But I don't think I will ever use godfather that investigates as town again. It punishes good town PR choices. I think godfather on which investigations fail on isn't too imbalanced though.

so he's town or fakegod's a jerkwad

and i dunno

noddy apparently had some restriction to his role where if he was roleblocked he died. which would make sense if you assume i was the scum kill, noddy was roleblocked and gaiden was vig killed (by sky paladin)

last night, dunno

if mass claim reveals nothing, i'd guess scum had an extra kill-shot spellcard, or scum have an ability that activates when they're the last one left, or scum have a secondary ability that's been coincidentally blocked until now, or scum have an ability similar to PGO, or any of a variety of other possibilities

[zMuffinMan]

it's like

me, myself and i (since drezi died d1)
ankamius, mala, kilgy
kagami, rylai, ooba
your neighbourhood

[zMuffinMan]

oh and cupcake apparently neighbourised ooba

[zMuffinMan]

nope

[zMuffinMan]

order of mass claim isn't so important for the first people doing it, really

just do cupcake -> rylai -> ankamius -> i forget who else is in the game that hasn't claimed

[zMuffinMan]

btw, as much as people will brush it off as WIFOM, i think there's a lot to be gained by looking at AD's interactions with people yesterday

for example, i think shadoweh and ankamius are more likely to be town than scum based off things said to them yesterday. and his reaction to the pieguy mala vig

same goes for interactions with kilgy, but that doesn't matter now

you can look at some interactions and see a more, uh, natural response to them, i guess? i mean it's not super-amazing-awesome-undeniable stuff, but it's there and you can see it if you're looking for it

key thing is, i think AD didn't interact much, if at all, with the last scum (which makes me lean one of cupcake and rylai, more likely cupcake IMO but meh...)

[zMuffinMan]

or we could discard it all and pretend it's wifom, but *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

by later i assume you mean much later in the day and not "i'm going to stay up til 8am pondering this"

[zMuffinMan]

was cupcake the only one he mentioned as a weak connection?

[zMuffinMan]

i assume nothing eventful happened n1?

[zMuffinMan]

those look similar to some of the conclusions i came to, i guess

though it's hard to really parse where you're asking for actual input and where you're asking zen questions like, "if sakura fell in a forest, would all of the people listed here be town?"

[zMuffinMan]

the rylai read felt like bait tbh specifically for that reason

same for AD's read on rylai

[zMuffinMan]

(the idea being Dan would notice Relentless was from the same site as him pregame if they were scum together)

i thought this at one point, but then when i was on a walk some time a week or so ago i realised, no... why would relentless, as a troll alt, reveal that in pregame? even if they were scum together, if you're a (somewhat) hidden alt, you don't just go around revealing it to people. which is why that particular exchange doesn't mean as much to me

the thing that I'm wondering with this is that, if this was a scum play to save ooba, I don't understand why he didn't come out with this earlier instead of dicking around saying "ooba's claim is town" the entire day and only coming out with this right at deadline

i've thought about this, too.

i do believe that if cupcake is town, ooba told him he's beloved. i also do believe that if cupcake is scum, ooba told him he was going to claim beloved. it was a trump card in the hole that presumably ooba was waiting until the last moment to reveal because it causes people to second-guess whether he should be lynched (well, sometimes it does, if people don't think)

i don't think that, if cupcake is scum, there was any "scum motivation" or anything like that in waiting to reveal it, i think it's more that he expected ooba to do it himself. same goes if cupcake is town

as for the rest of your points, they are part of why i said the only reason i think cupcake might be town is because of relentless, but even then, i don't know how relentless plays, so meh

[zMuffinMan]

ideally, we don't talk about game-related stuff until mass claim happens but that's a little difficult with mass claim pending on cupcake ACTUALLY posting and he's all but disappeared

meh

[zMuffinMan]

indeed

there are not enough colons or less-than-signs in the world to express emotions right now

[zMuffinMan]

are you changing your avatar every day now or am i just imagining things?

[zMuffinMan]

how many pages is the SDM neighbourhood?

[zMuffinMan]

it's pretty edgy. i don't remember the last time you called me town without stating paranoia about me

[zMuffinMan]

similar to my own thoughts on interaction, except that my pieguy read primarily stems from D1 interactions with sakura and AD

[zMuffinMan]

(it actually doesn't, since fakegod said if i investigated a godfather and another scum member, i'd get "different alignment" as a result, unless you just mean it's a second investigation, in which case, yeah sure)

[zMuffinMan]

no

i'm also not sure i've ever seen fakegod include a traitor role

[zMuffinMan]

quick search shows he has included a traitor before

still, i doubt it's the case here

maybe something to consider if the game doesn't end in the next couple days

[zMuffinMan]

What has the 4.5 scum speculation been about? I can't remember who put that forward offhand.

that would be AD, yesterday, when he was confirmed scum

i sincerely doubt there was anything to it, but if there was, it means there's only 1 scum left and they're a traitor, which is kind of meh, but whatever, not something i'm thinking about right now.

i doubt there's 1 scum and 1 traitor left

[zMuffinMan]

I didn't mention it because muffin's cop didn't town clear SB. At least as I understand parity cop, when he said 'There is

at least

one scum between Dan and SB' does not exclude the possibility of both SB and Dan being scum.

I had a result that said you were town though so that's what I reported.

i didn't say at least

[zMuffinMan]

can you just full-claim?

[zMuffinMan]

my understanding is that parity cop gets a result of the two players are the same alignment, or they are of different alignments.

Is this correct zmuffin?

yes, but unimportant now

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not really sure how I'd go about crumbing something like that in a game where the flips don't reveal abilities.

this is one of the issues with the hider claim, the others including: the order he's using abilities he apparently has, whether it makes sense as a role in this game (i could make myself a 1-shot cop by self-targeting if i so chose, sky paladin is claiming a 1-shot cop and a hider is essentially a cop shot with potential upsides and downsides)

but yes, most important is the lack of crumbing

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i'd ask, "how, if you died, would we have known shadoweh was scum who you hid behind?" but i'm thinking this is just a fake-claim.

there's also stuff like, "if you're a hider, and you've neighbourised someone you are really sure is town (even if it turns out you were wrong), you should be using the hider shot N2 and telling them who you hid behind so it isn't wasted."

but that is only the tip of the iceberg on ways i think you've used your role incorrectly if you happen to be town

[zMuffinMan]

maybe, maybe not - there will be some roles in this game that are JOAT-like with weird abilities that don't necessarily synergise (and aren't exactly standard)

i could see the role potentially existing in a setup - i just sincerely doubt it exists in this one

[zMuffinMan]

i think cupcake is very likely scum but i would like if cupcake's next post was formatted as such:

these are my abilities:
X, Y, Z

X does blah
Y does bleh
Z does meh

these are my spellcards:
A, B, C

A does *shrug*
B does *cough*
C does i'm out of descriptors so just put whatever C does here

[zMuffinMan]

as in, a FULL CLAIM cupcake

[zMuffinMan]

He was scum in reck's retrospective rehash game, which had a beloved prince who didn't claim until day 5 or maybe 6.

...

He mentioned in this game that he carefully crafts his claims as scum. This claim feels weird because it was a death sentence, though maybe he thought town would put it off until effectively lylo like the town in reck's game did? I kinda wonder if ooba and katsuki discussed it at all, or if it was a shoot from the hip thing katsuki did.

just an example of why leaving a beloved princess claim til very late in the game is extremely awful play

but yes, that is what i believe he think would have happened (being scared to lynch him)

i doubt it was a shoot from the hip thing on cupcake's behalf - ooba

was

kind of hinting at it a little. kinda. i could see him calling himself a "bad lynch" D1 as hinting at it, maybe. but meh

i dunno

[zMuffinMan]

persay

per se

[zMuffinMan]

i could see it making some sense - thinking with portals and whatnot (he probably does have some sort of commuting role at the very least, if he is scum)

i have more of an issue with motivator, flavour-wise, tbh

but i also think making decisions based on flavour is not so wise

[zMuffinMan]

you really hyped that up

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

it's actually autumn

[zMuffinMan]

the more i think about how cupcake used his supposed role, the more i find wrong with it

for example, he didn't

need

to use it last night (and risk dying on someone while leaving no information about it) - he could have, for example, saved it and claimed it today and used it on, say, ankamius or rylai. yes, if he and his target are both town, that means scum can kill them, but it also means scum has to get rid of mislynches to do that. hell, he could have done this YESTERDAY

meh

these are just things i'm thinking about without even thinking really deeply about the role, and he's had weeks with it to think about it, so i mean, yeah

kinda just wanna see his flip now

if it ends the game, yay

if not, i'll be somewhat disappointed

[zMuffinMan]

finish mass claim for the sake of it, then lynch cupcake imo

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, the absolute worst that can come of lynching cupcake is confirming shadoweh as town

best case scenario: game ends

[zMuffinMan]

It also makes me seriously wonder why Katsuki wouldn't use a hider shot on Sky P on Day 1 after being Super High School Level Convinced he was scum, it would have been super obvious who the target was in case of death.

yes, a couple things more things about the claim that make me think it's off

i

could

maybe believe that in some alternate world, cupcake is a hider and all the stuff he was saying D1 (don't target me, if i die sky is scum, etc) were because he was planning to hide behind sky... but then he chose to neighbourise ooba... because... he likes neighbours? (btw if he likes neighbours, why did he say he hated his role when he entered the game?) i mean, i personally would have made it absolutely apparent (by, say, dropping the word "hide" a few times here and there but meh

ok, whatever, maybe he had a last minute change of mind for some reason. fine. why not use it N2, though? sure you didn't have time to crumb it D2, but you're in a neighbourhood with someone you're convinced is town, you can tell them about it and make sure they know to tell town if you die... sure, it turns out ooba was scum, but theoretically if he was so convinced ooba was town, why not do this?

nope, he chose to motivate instead. fine. but then D3 why not crumb it (or even outright claim it as per what i said in 2424)? didn't have time? yeah... he had time to come on and tell us ooba was a beloved princess, but didn't have time to crumb the hide in his initial claim or his last post of the day

whatever... these, again, are only the smallest of gripes i have with his claim.

further, unrelated to the above (kinda), is if noddy was telling the truth about his role (as pieguy described it in 1593), hider makes little sense in this setup.

[zMuffinMan]

You know what I want an apology from you post-game because fuck you

even if you did happen to be town, no

[zMuffinMan]

though since rylai has claimed that, rylai may as well use it to lynch you

in the worst case scenario, it gets rid of it so rylai cannot use it further down the line

[zMuffinMan]

@Muffin: Given the flips from yesterday you know as well as I do that what you said is bullshit and if I came into today going "WAIT GUIS I STILL HAVE A HIDE TO USE" you would've just deathtunneled that anyways.

yeah... no.

if you know anything about how i play, you'd know i decide what to do based on optimal play.

and optimal play in that situation would dictate giving you one more day (since it would just mean lynching someone else from the lynchpool before you, and if you and other person from lynchpool don't die, we lynch you the following day with a clear on someone else in the lynchpool, which means reassessing the game would be necessary)

[zMuffinMan]

he didn't claim a role-related reason to think rylai is scum

[zMuffinMan]

not really, but we can wait for it anyway

regardless, the day should end with rylai using card after all is said and done

[zMuffinMan]

ok, cupcake

[zMuffinMan]

honestly, the fact that you were town-reading ooba isn't even playing into my read on you, at all, or any criticisms of your play i might have if you happen to be town

i don't care to discuss it in depth, though, since it would just result in me writing a rather long wall detailing how bad i think you've played this game if you're town, and nobody really wants to read that (though these thoughts are largely contained in my neighbourhood PT, anyway)

if you happen to be town, i guess i can give you an apology in post-game, though i don't think it will mean much since i can tell you now it won't be sincere. but if you still want one anyway, then ok

[zMuffinMan]

Meh, I think katsuki's probably scum and the game will probably end when he's lynched.

me2

[zMuffinMan]

if you want. though tbh the neighbourhood has just been me spamming music and then fakegod occasionally talking to me about music and sometimes about how he thinks cupcake is really scummy and should be lynched and then me agreeing so i'm not really that lonely

[zMuffinMan]

by tonight, do you mean tonight or tonight tonight?

[zMuffinMan]

sky vig killed gaiden N2 (spellcard)

mala nuked thd's spellcards N2 (with her own spellcard) though this isn't important to the game state, except in explaining mala's play D3 leading up to pie's vig perhaps

if i had to guess, ooba roleblocked noddy N2 (he claimed a roleblock card, probably truthfully) - this is just speculation though

[zMuffinMan]

oh and cupcake claims to have motivated noddy n2 and obviously claims to have hidden behind shadoweh n3

[zMuffinMan]

(also kilgy's rolecop thingy on ank i think N2 but that seems unimportant as well, except in explaining interactions between those two D3)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not actually active

[zMuffinMan]

your issues with me are because i have been calling you likely-scum since D3, right? and you're not even taking the time to understand why i think this, but i'm somehow taking enjoyment away from the game for you because i think this

also, none of that really explains the primary concerns i have with you and how you've used your role so far, so meh

i'm sorry that you feel that way if you happen to be town. not that it really matters, though, since this was more of a 'one and done' thing and i don't really have any intention of actively playing games in the near future so you don't have to worry about me making games less fun for you after this

[zMuffinMan]

youre also not actively taking the time to do

anything

, which is totally unlike, say, cabdgame where you did everything in your power to make town aware of who was scum (even if they didn't listen to you after you died)...

here all i see is whining about how i'm not fun to play with this game. you're not even really leaving behind a legacy. just "fuck you, muffin" which, while a strong argument, is not particularly helpful in finding scum because i can't be lynched

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

your entire argument is, "i play better than this as scum so you should read me as town"

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

and you started on me before d3

no

[zMuffinMan]

though you're free to go and find where i did this

shouldn't be too hard since you'd just have to ctrl+F "cupcake" in my ISO and see that's not true

[zMuffinMan]

oh wait, unless you just mean me questioning why you were 'vehemently against an ooba lynch' d1 and me saying i didn't wanna lynch sky and that i wasn't willing to accept your argument that he's scum because he's scum

i also did apparently state i was beginning to think you might be scum d1 (primarily because of the way you were pushing sky) but you gave no signs that you even read that or that it affected you in any way, so i assume the great crime i committed against you must have been not agreeing to lynch sky

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

im saying my play literally doesn't make sense as scum

your play literally doesnt make sense as town, either

for so many more reasons than i care to list right now

but regardless, if your argument is "i dont make sense as scum because im better than this as scum" and i am weighing that up against actual in-game stuff that points to others being more likely town than you, i'm just going to assume off-game before i assume "yeah he definitely can't be scum, therefore confirmed town, therefore i'm looking elsewhere even though other options make less sense"

[zMuffinMan]

ya but my scumplay always makes sense as town

i've only seen you play scum once, iirc (unless im forgetting games), and that's not how i'd describe it, but i think you get somewhat of a pass because people don't expect much from your town play (this may sound harsh, but i'm just trying to be honest about it)

also, my memory of that game is fuzzy because i stopped playing shortly after i self-hammered to get out of that game, but i don't remember you being a consensus town read and i skimmed over it and saw a bunch of people calling you scum (including the vig who tried to kill you twice and failed twice), so i mean, i think you're talking up your scum game a bit more than is warranted

[zMuffinMan]

also fact of the matter is that regardless of whether your play makes more sense as town or scum based on meta, you're suggesting i take your word that you're town because you would play better as scum when...

(a) none of your actions really make sense from a town POV - for example, still waiting to hear why you asked not to be targeted N1, still waiting to hear why you said you hated your role when you entered the game if you love neighbours... but just the overall use of your abilities, the order, the targets, etc makes no sense from the point of view that you're town

(b) your reads and, more importantly, your interactions with flipped scum have been rather bad this game. this doesn't necessarily make you scum, but it's certainly not a point in favour of you being town. and you've spent very little time this game doing anything that resembles scum hunting outside maaaaaybe that push on sky D1 (which is a large part of where my initial scum read on you came from) and that wall you wrote yesterday (where the analysis was incredibly weak). i suppose this could be due to time constraints, but like, OK... it doesn't necessarily point to you being scum, but it's again certainly not a point in favour of you being town

(c) there are strong reasons to think most other people in this game are town based on interactions with flipped scum, or role reasons (e.g. the confirmed players)

[zMuffinMan]

(c) is the major thing you are constantly ignoring when you complain about people scum reading you

[zMuffinMan]

if you have information, i don't really see why you're holding it back given kagami has already claimed the N3 action

[zMuffinMan]

btw, if for whatever reason we aren't lynching cupcake today, he is using his JK shot on one of rylai and ankamius and narrowing the lynch pool down even further

no, i do not believe scum still have a strongman shot, if they even had one to begin with

[zMuffinMan]

actually it doesnt matter who he uses it on, so long as he doesnt target any of the confirmed players (and preferably not sky either)

[zMuffinMan]

If he successfully jailkeeps you you won't see him target you. >_>

he should, technically, since a passive ability wouldn't be roleblocked by a JK shot (that'd be like if using a JK on a godfather suddenly meant they could investigate as scum)

but it depends on whether cupcake "visits" with his JK shot

[zMuffinMan]

gif

less vague pls

pls

[zMuffinMan]

Cupcake

Does the description for your JK shot contain the word visit?

[zMuffinMan]

roleblock working on passive abilities would be absolutely silly for a variety of reasons (godfather being one, IC being another, the many many other interactions that would require a whole new chain of NAR to resolve as well, etc)

it's best to just think of a roleblock as preventing someone from perform actions

[zMuffinMan]

JK roleblocks and prevents the target from dying

the entire point is that they cannot die and any death that happens will not be as a result of the person who was JKd

[zMuffinMan]

(unless they're strongman, in which case, meh, but like i said, i doubt scum still have a strongman shot left)

[zMuffinMan]

it disables rylai's vote, which was silly, but whatever

[zMuffinMan]

yes

[zMuffinMan]

with everyone throwing out their day cards, i feel left out, so i'm going to attempt to use mine too

Curse of the Heavens "Apollo 13": FakeGod, zMuffinMan

it's on, fakegod. it's on

[zMuffinMan]

no

[zMuffinMan]

i can't use spellcards or do anything really

[zMuffinMan]

it is more symbolic than anything, tbh

[zMuffinMan]

please don't modkill me, fakegod

[zMuffinMan]

omg there's so many people not voting

[zMuffinMan]

ok now we wait for kagami to go "i didn't kill kilgy" and then we all act shocked and horrified that this would be kagami's answer and then we wait for gif to stop being vague, but that won't happen because gif will just be like "OH BUT YOU DID" and then kagami will, again, shocklingly say "no"

fun times

i dont understand why there's a need for being vague but i will pretend there is one and nod sagely as events unfold

[zMuffinMan]

Scum can use spellcard and nightkill at the same time right?

yes

[zMuffinMan]

(you should know this since you had a spell card that directly modified your night kill in the first game iirc)

[zMuffinMan]

wat

[zMuffinMan]

he's saying anything that happened to thd (outside of a kill) would also happen to him

kagami said she targeted thd with her message ability
gif didn't receive the message

that is the issue here, apparently

though it seems that's not an issue anymore, unless i'm misinterpreting gif's recent posts. in which case, wat

[zMuffinMan]

What about all this business of Kilga dying and Rylai already being dead?

rylai was a typo

kilgy thing was a ... "gambit"

though i hesitate to call it that, since there was really no need to be vague in the first place, but whatever.

[zMuffinMan]

so you asked fakegod something and he said "nah ur dumb"?

[zMuffinMan]

[zMuffinMan]

back to the regularly scheduled program then

[zMuffinMan]

it's a pity you derped since, if you'd submitted the action, that would have potentially cleared/condemned kagami (or at least meant she was unlikely to have somehow caused both deaths last night if you got a message) and we'd have 5 cleared players right now

meh

lynch cupcake or does anyone want to suggest and argue for an alternative?

[zMuffinMan]

just for completeness' sake

probably need to enlighten me on (c) because I haven;t been keeping up with the game.

you've cleared shadoweh, gif is a sort-of-mason, ffery has multiple clears on her where investigation-immune scum has already flipped (and fakegod is unlikely to have included a pure godfather anyway)

that's 3 confirmed town basically

of the other 5 people that aren't you,

- sky has multiple interactions with all the flipped scum that suggest he's more likely town than scum
- kagami has not as much but still a fair amount of interactions with flipped scum that suggest town
- pieguy also has not as much but still (imo) a fair amount of interactions that suggest town

- ankamius doesn't really have any amazing interactions to speak of, but his play looks far more town than yours overall
- rylai has a few interactions that i personally don't think are likely to be scum-scum interactions, but others would disagree. i also think some things about rylai's play look more likely town than scum, but others seem to disagree on this as well

this is the gist of my thoughts on the game. the bottom two here are basically who i'd be looking at if you happened to be town

but the point is that when i'm weighing up your argument, which is essentially "i'm better than this as scum", against actual in-game evidence that suggests these other people are more likely to be town than you, i'm inclined to just think it's more likely you're having an off-game

so when i say your actions don't make sense from the point of view that you're town and your play doesn't make sense from the point of view that you're town, what i'm weighing that against is stronger evidence that other people are town. and i'm not going to just say, "oh cupcake is town because he's not this bad as scum!"

so if you still don't understand why i'm scum reading you, then i don't know what to say

(and this isn't exactly new information from me, so your issue that i'm being a jerk because i'm scum reading you just tells me you haven't been reading anything i've actually written this game. so meh)

[zMuffinMan]

rylai, the crystal maiden

[zMuffinMan]

WHY CANT YOU LEARN TO BE THAT NICE MUFFIN

it takes a lot of self-restraint to be as nice as i am already

besides, people who are always nice to others tend to be the ones who become the psychotic serial killers due to pent-up rage at having to read metal sonic and titus ISOs and pretend there's nothing wrong with them - it's healthy to let it all out before you go on a killing spree, imo

[zMuffinMan]

GIVE ME A CHANCE TO CATCH SCUM TONIGHT

i was considering this then i realised optimal scum play is probably to just no kill, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since it means scum can't kill, but it also means we're back to square one tomorrow unless we hit scum-that-isn't-you today

essentially, it's only a maybe-good-idea if you're town (in the sense that if you're town, we

can

hit scum today if we lynch not-you)

the problem is believing that you're town

[zMuffinMan]

good thing I'm not always nice

i'll be honest, i've always pictured you as part-cyborg. i don't know how you can play with some people and not express certain emotions about how they play

[zMuffinMan]

i will build shrines in your honour and worship you as a deity if you're somehow able to get cupcake to talk about reads in any depth

for only a mystical being could achieve such a feat

[zMuffinMan]

How much time until I can lynch him?

we must wait until the time prophesised in the scriptures. the final sign shall be when the green star falls from the sky, there will be a great earthquake and a thousand cries will be heard in the night.

or something

i dunno. ask ffery i guess

[zMuffinMan]

that is why he ignored both rylai's and katsuki's votes/unvotes, yes

[zMuffinMan]

your plan is to have cupcake target you and this tells us what?

[zMuffinMan]

right...

anyway, i sincerely doubt FakeGod made a 14:5 setup

[zMuffinMan]

i think i already said somewhere what i think of the JK plan

tl;dr it gets us nowhere but if, for whatever reason, we go through with it, im fine with him targeting you

[zMuffinMan]

Well, that depends on whether people agree with it. Some don't

It's not strictly confirmed to be within 3 players, there are just 3 players who I can find less reason to call town than others, and of them, I can at least find

some

reason to call the other two town.

[zMuffinMan]

The only way I see that not happening is if gif, pie, maybe shadoweh and I wind up convinced someone else is scum and swing things elsewhere.

technically shadoweh could lynch someone by herself if she wanted

[zMuffinMan]

o i thought it just gave you 5 votes

[zMuffinMan]

Did you see what the 3-vote card did? It does that, except on one person with 5 votes. I imagine since I have to put the other person's name when I do it that he wouldn't be affected. I supose it's possible it would work? I think it would be incredibly silly to do. He told us about it and activated it today in good faith, after the rolecop died. Do you think scum had a never-ending control the lynch card as well as an end the day card?

i think it's possible scum have (or had?) other ways to mess with lylo / near lylo situations, so an infinite voter isn't outside of the realm of possibility for scum, but i do think it's more likely rylai is town (for other reasons mostly, but i agree with the point about the usage of the role)

[zMuffinMan]

stop copying me ffery

[zMuffinMan]

i like sky - i just mentioned similarities to titus because sometimes he goes off on tangents that don't really make sense to me (or apparently anyone else) and he gets really fixated on certain things that seem like non-issues to me. though unlike titus, there's never any "well today i saw a dog when i was walking in the park so that must mean X is town, and if anyone disagrees with me they are just blatantly wrong - every other time i've seen a dog in the park i've been right about someone being town, there's like just no way i'm wrong this time".

[zMuffinMan]

now you come up with a good reason for lynching someone not cupcake, or you make me a very unhappy stump (and stumps, in general, are not happy to begin with, what with having most of their upper body chopped off and whatnot)

[zMuffinMan]

i still think the AD interactions mean rylai more likely town than scum - unless the idea is AD decided to specifically interact with his lynch bait buddy in an obvious way while... not doing the same really for his other buddies? *shrug* possible but i think it's more likely incredibly weak white-knighting / buddying

there's also minor things about rylai's play i mentioned at some point, coupled with minor things yesterday / today

the sakura interactions didn't necessarily point to town, but i don't think they were anywhere near pointing to scum

[zMuffinMan]

gif's thing with kagami was because gif is a newbie, basically - it was based on the assumption gif had sent a night action when he actually forgot to

also don't really get what you mean with interactions d2/d3

d2 lasted 4 hours and d3 AD was confirmed scum so a lot of the conversations were skewed already - i don't remember anything with ooba that looked bad

[zMuffinMan]

Sure, I'll full claim, since it looks like I'm dead anyway, at least town knows my role wasn't too much of a loss.
I can investigate someone every knight, and get their Race. I get my spellcard back if it was human. My own race is not-human so I guess those are the two possible options?
My spellcard makes my next vote do nothing.

oh yeah should probably add this to the list since forgots. I guess race does matter a bit? Tewi and their tricksy spellcards.

not necessarily

the reason i didn't care about drezi's "investigative" role was because i was tewi in the first game, a race cop. i assumed he was also probably a race cop, too. it did nothing for me in the first touhou upick and was just a red herring role, really (since another town player was a race cop who could actually utilise their race cop ability in tandem with other abilities).

[zMuffinMan]

Have you considered you wouldn't be forever alone if you hadn't insisted on powerlynching your PT buddy Day 1? :p

i should also admit that i have vested interest in seeing drezi lynched today

fakegod told me to lynch him because then we can spend the rest of the game alone together in the neighbourhood PT. initially, i was taken aback and didn't know if he was serious, but he caressed my cheek and whispered sweet nothings into my ear and i agreed because i would do anything for him. he's just so dreamy

[zMuffinMan]

i am also interested in what your spellcard does

not really, but if it makes you feel better

[zMuffinMan]

i take it that means you're considering the possibility pieguy is scum then

[zMuffinMan]

I think thgsd died as an extra kill because he was cardless.

how do you explain sky knowing about it and (apparently) thd (or kilga) not knowing?

[zMuffinMan]

sky knew he had a "bomb" and mentioned it D2

why did whoever had the bomb on them D3 not mention it?

[zMuffinMan]

oh you think he put the "bomb" on thd last night and because thd had all his cards destroyed he instantly died instead of at the end of the next phase?

meh

seems farfetched and really inconsistent

[zMuffinMan]

why do you think pieguy claimed it?

[zMuffinMan]

i think i would just like it if cupcake were scum and we lynched him today and then we all held hands and sang kumbaya

[zMuffinMan]

that sounds like a disgusting euphemism

[zMuffinMan]

@ankamius,

what is your favourite colour?

[zMuffinMan]

um it was like page 55 or 54

[zMuffinMan]

nope, 56

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1375

[zMuffinMan]

(to be clear, read that page and look at how it played out)

(also of note is that ooba tried to dismiss this as a reason to think sky town by suggesting AD might have known sky wouldn't die)

[zMuffinMan]

is it happing? is ti filannaly happing?

- Shadoweh

[zMuffinMan]

and now we wait for fakegod to reveal a town flip and we spend the night phase chanting DIE RYLAI, DIE

except i think fakegod is asleep sooooooooo SUSPENSE!

[zMuffinMan]

nah youre right

cupcake is flipping town

that was an awful lynch and you should all be ashamed

[zMuffinMan]

now we wait for fakegod to wake up

[zMuffinMan]

dreams of kumbaya shattered

[zMuffinMan]

i hope cupcake flips town. it makes the game more interesting

[zMuffinMan]

<Insert Credits>

[zMuffinMan]

Please pardon my site meta ignorance, but how common and/or "acceptable" is self-meta as a defense here, anyway? No one I was unfamiliar with seemed to bat an eye at players citing it, but two of the three people that pushed self-meta in their own defense the hardest were scum.

i generally don't blink an eye at self-meta unless i have a very good reason to, which is rarely the case. if you're so aware of your self-meta that you can cite it, then you're aware enough that you could choose to manipulate it if you so wanted

that said, a lot of the time when i'm scum i will deliberately manipulate my "meta" and hope others point it out - it helps that a fair few people on this site play games that are heavily reliant on meta, i guess, which rewards you for doing this in a way

[zMuffinMan]

22-page neighbourhood

smashed you all

daytalk OP

[zMuffinMan]

actually, in most of my more recent town games, i've had absolutely atrocious D1 reads that i completely reversed from d2 onwards. that happened in xenosaga as well with pieguy and others D1.

i suppose i should have mentioned that before people started saying they agree with stuff im writing!

also i thought this conversation i was having with sakura ended up being rather ironic

[zMuffinMan]

oh thank god

GG all and I really enjoyed this player list (and sorry again to Sky_Paladin for when he reads my neighbor QT. I was way too frustrated). I hope to play with all of you again >3<

I'm also really glad I finally got my redemption to some extent after losing the first 2 TH upicks. \o/ it would have sucked if I had lost all 3 games.

btw, did i point it out in game or only to fakegod?

you've lost every touhou game you've played (apart from this one) and i've won every touhou game i've played and we've never been the same alignment (before now)

[zMuffinMan]

if pieguy had shot cupcake, the game might have ended D3 so

[zMuffinMan]

Still thinks town was OP

There was a lot of town power (it was role madness, what do you expect?) and town may have been a little overpowered (I haven't actually looked at the setup as a whole and thought about it yet), but it was a lot more to do with suboptimal night choices by scum and suboptimal partial claims during the day as well (for example, serenes negative utility thing and cupcake directly asking not to be targeted).

This could easily have swung in scum's favour N1 with slightly different choices. For example, I personally would have used my investigation-immune card N1 if I were you, simply because given the nature of this game (most powerful abilities were 1-shot) there's a fairly good chance the only time you'd need to use it is N1. There were probably a lot of different ways you could have utilised some of your team's other abilities overall.

[zMuffinMan]

I mean sure. On the whole I think if you were to run this setup more you'd have like a 7/3 town/scum win split.

I absolutely agree that the partial day claims were bad. but the night choices were mostly fine in the situation we were in. I'd also like to point out that using the immunity spellcard would have been led to my lynch anyway considering Red the nightless castle. It would have been deduced that either muffin failed or I failed.

Probably, but there would have still been a bit more wiggle room than there was. It wouldn't have been set in stone. Also, the odds of me hitting the one scum that wasn't either investigation-immune or able to completely fuck my shit up if I targeted them wasn't great.

I mean there was easily potential for about a bazillion town bodies by D2/D3 if abilities were used slightly differently / hinted at slightly differently.

See, for example, the last Touhou Upick (though I guess you could argue the scum team was incredibly lucky in that game).

I tend to think FakeGod setups in general are more town-sided than scum-sided, but I think scum win most FakeGod games so *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

Also the red thing wouldn't have mattered so much if you all played spellcards (which I think was optimal play even if you didn't know about the red thing - I quite literally would have blown my entire load of spell cards N1 as scum in this game, it was by far the most important night in the game even without retrospect, that is just how these Touhou Upicks work).

[zMuffinMan]

Well, if you're looking at the balance of the setup overall, I'm just saying that even if it did happen to be town-sided, there were still a *lot* of options for scum to play things differently and use spellcards in a way that would have meant things played out entirely differently. Like, no offense, but if scum had played a stronger game to the point where one of them didn't get vig killed N1 and had perhaps used spell cards differently or come up with different gambits around their spellcards, the game could have (and likely would have) played out entirely differently.

If we're talking about just how this game played out, then yeah, scum may have driven themselves into a corner. I don't think that's a fault of the setup, though.

(I also think you're really underestimating how hard it is for town to figure out exactly what is going on in a setup like this.)

[zMuffinMan]

(Also, both you and Sakura had ascetic spellcards so it was actually 2x)

(And Ooba was naturally investigation-immune)

[zMuffinMan]

according to the mod PT she did

yes, only to spellcards, but that's like 95% of all the dangerous abilities in the game

[zMuffinMan]

Picks

SXTLHGaiden - futo, nue, Suika, Yuyuko
GuyInFreezer - Lily White
zMuffinMan - eirin, seija, parsee, yuugi, kanako
Sakura Hana - Eiki, Sakuya, Miko, Sanae
pieguyn - remilia
notscience - flan remi troll chen
Ankamius - Momiji Inubashiri, Koishi Komeiji, Tewi Inaba, Tenshi Hinanawi, Genjii
Drezi - Tewi Inaba, Mystia Lorelei, Tenshi Hinanawi, Sakuya Izayoi
ActionDan - Eiki, Yuyuko, Marisa, Tenshi
Shadoweh - KAZAMI YOOKA, Alice Margatroid, Seiga Kaku, Koishi, Yukari
thdgkdms - Lily White/Black, Tokiko, Momiji Inubashiri, Iku Nagae
SB - Patchouli Knowledge, Yukari Yakumo, Suwako Moriya, Kogasa Tatara
Sky_Paladin - Konpaku Youmu, Yakumo Yukari, Yakumo Ran, Cirno
Serenes Forest - Nue, Parsee, Miko, Satori, Kasen, Mamizou
Kilgamayan - Aya, Kasen, Iku, nitori
Rylai Crestfall - Byakuren, Cirno, Letty, Lily Black
The_Relentless - Patchouli Knowledge, Yukari Yakumo, Mononobe no Futo, Raiko Horikawa
Malakittens - Kasen Ibakira, Luna, Okuu, Marisa
Kagami - kogasa, alice, sunnymilk, marisa

i like how pieguy submitted one name

[zMuffinMan]

well, tbh, you didn't leave that much of an impression

D1 you were kinda just there. D2 was over in a few hours. D3 was about figuring out who made the most sense as scum with AD - it wasn't you. D4 cupcake's claim made you town regardless of its veracity. nothing to really talk about

*shrug*

sorry! if i ever have a PT in a game with you again, i'll make sure to mention you every other post

[zMuffinMan]

SXTLHGaiden, GuyInFreezer, zMuffinMan, pieguyn, notscience, Ankamius, Drezi, Shadoweh, thdgkdms, SB, Sky_Paladin, Kilgamayan, Rylai Crestfall, Malakittens, and Kagami, aligned with Town, wins the game!

of note, ffery did not win this game

bl ffery