Tarot uPick II - GAME OVER

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Oil Tycoons

[Kuroko Network]

VOTE: Konowa

I don't really understand the empty threat at me from Wall of Fire either, but I'm not particularly scared of them either, sooooooooooooo.

Is this serious or random?

[Kuroko Network]

Why so srs, breh?

It's not, I'm mostly just curious.

[Kuroko Network]

No

Lynch all liars.

Echo.

VOTE: Luna Fox

[Kuroko Network]

Bullshit.

[Kuroko Network]

I think Oil Tycoons is town.

I think I agree.

[Kuroko Network]

Part of me thinks I should start drinking just for this game. Unfortunately, the rest of me thinks that isn't such a good idea :<

Kamikagami maybe town.

[Kuroko Network]

Syryana's back?

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Fluff Central

I don't like the attempt at discrediting town reads on Kamikagami because he outed role information in his previous scum game, for a few reasons. The only reason he even played that way as scum was because he decided to go balls out yolo and do something insane just for the sake of doing something insane. Kamikagami's is also fundamentally different from his play in that game in that her information serves to clear people whereas his didn't, which is more likely to come from town than scum as scum usually don't go searching for ways people can potentially be cleared. I don't believe he'd think what Kamikagami did was the same thing he did in that game, and I don't believe he'd Kamikagami, or anyone else for that matter, would do the same thing he did in that game in any other game.

I don't like him spec'ing a lyncher in the game when this is a upick and upicks are plain town vs. scum almost 100% of the time.

I haven't minded Tammy or PN's posts so far.

[Kuroko Network]

Is anybody interested to mythbusters the myth that unpopular opinions usually come from contrarian scum?

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Fluff Central

I don't like the attempt at discrediting town reads on Kamikagami because he outed role information in his previous scum game, for a few reasons. The only reason he even played that way as scum was because he decided to go balls out yolo and do something insane just for the sake of doing something insane. Kamikagami's is also fundamentally different from his play in that game in that her information serves to clear people whereas his didn't, which is more likely to come from town than scum as scum usually don't go searching for ways people can potentially be cleared. I don't believe he'd think what Kamikagami did was the same thing he did in that game, and I don't believe he'd Kamikagami, or anyone else for that matter, would do the same thing he did in that game in any other game.

I don't like him spec'ing a lyncher in the game when this is a upick and upicks are plain town vs. scum almost 100% of the time.

I haven't minded Tammy or PN's posts so far.

You don't have a read on us yet?

I'm pretty sure that we mentioned that we were townreading you.

[Kuroko Network]

Notscience did you not have a response to our vote?

[Kuroko Network]

Does that mean you townread them or not? If fire is bad for business, you purge them.

Your vote doesn't make sense with your words.

[Kuroko Network]

However, I do agree that fire is bad for business and that Mastin should be lynched before lylo, in all cases. Regardless of her alignment, she will bring town to doom.

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Fluff Central

I don't like the attempt at discrediting town reads on Kamikagami because he outed role information in his previous scum game, for a few reasons. The only reason he even played that way as scum was because he decided to go balls out yolo and do something insane just for the sake of doing something insane. Kamikagami's is also fundamentally different from his play in that game in that her information serves to clear people whereas his didn't, which is more likely to come from town than scum as scum usually don't go searching for ways people can potentially be cleared. I don't believe he'd think what Kamikagami did was the same thing he did in that game, and I don't believe he'd Kamikagami, or anyone else for that matter, would do the same thing he did in that game in any other game.

Who has done this?

The post was made by pie. This is Echo speaking.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm not sure if I understand your thought process. You contradict yourself directly in the same post.

How does fire not being bad for business lead you to place a vote on them?

[Kuroko Network]

What does illiteracy have to do with interpretation of a typographical error?

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Fluff Central

I don't like the attempt at discrediting town reads on Kamikagami because he outed role information in his previous scum game, for a few reasons. The only reason he even played that way as scum was because he decided to go balls out yolo and do something insane just for the sake of doing something insane. Kamikagami's is also fundamentally different from his play in that game in that her information serves to clear people whereas his didn't, which is more likely to come from town than scum as scum usually don't go searching for ways people can potentially be cleared. I don't believe he'd think what Kamikagami did was the same thing he did in that game, and I don't believe he'd Kamikagami, or anyone else for that matter, would do the same thing he did in that game in any other game.

Who has done this?

The post was made by pie. This is Echo speaking.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking who was discrediting town reads on kamikagami cuz....

...

Did you not see the vote on Fluff Central?

Maybe you need to learn some interpretation skills of your own.

[Kuroko Network]

Also echo echo, why'd you ask me to hydra with you if you're just going to insult me as soon as day starts???

Perhaps it's because you insulted dearest Grandpa Oil. He pays for my dinner, y'know?

[Kuroko Network]

I'm townreading PN.

Tammy you're drunk. Go to bed.

[Kuroko Network]

Spoiler: @Tammy

Hey Tammy, this is Echo, and I'm sorry if you felt offended by the post I had made. You're probably reading this in the morning after a night's rest so I hope you feel more sober and rational now. It was late, you were under the influence of alcohol, judgment was impaired, and things escalated quickly. It's okay. I was just poking you because of your comment about Nacho's illiteracy and interpretation skills, so I posted this #286, but you didn't respond, so I chose a better opportunity to get your attention. It did, however on hindsight it was in bad taste, especially when you already displayed signs of not reading carefully and was inebriated, which made you overly sensitive. I thought that you would be able to take a hint of badassery and dish a good one back in return, but instead you got the wrong idea. I'm sorry about that. You even thought that I was elusive, which was actually kind of funny but tensed everything up. I tried to diffuse the tension in #306 and I hope you can see my efforts here to salvage a bad joke but once you called me scum and an asshat, it was clear to me that you should calm down. Nacho also noticed you and tried to engage you with logical arguments, but you handwaved them all despite being perfectly valid. At that point, I told you to go to bed. I did the gracious thing (and the healthier one for the gamestate) which was to leave the conversation and not stoke the fire in a heated argument. Tammy, you're a great person which is why everyone wants to hydra with you, so please stop taking things the wrong way. Try to assume the good in everyone before lashing out at them, to avoid misunderstanding. It hurts people. It hurt me.

All that aside, I would argue that people actually "attacking you" like that would be a towntell, not a scumtell. Considering that I asked you to hydra, it suggests that I knew you -- it stands to reason that the optimal scum strategy (when scum know you're town) is to buddy and be nice to you. Furthermore, it is well known on the site that you are skilled at obv-towning quickly; antagonizing you while knowing that you're town would be a serious mistake. I don't think any legitimate scum would do that. I don't know if you're town or scum (although you are leaning town to me), so even if I did "attack you" that way (which I didn't do intentionally, if it did), you should be townreading me for it, not the other way round. I'm not too concerned about this, however, as both pieguyn and myself are also fairly good at obv-towning.

Anyway, let's keep this a happy game so that we can all work together to catch the scum. Arguments like this give scum room to hide.

Truce?

[Kuroko Network]

Was that meant to be for you to read?

[Kuroko Network]

I take it from the "echo" signature here that the previous posts were the other part of that hydra? How are the two of you communicating in this game, out of interest? And/or how are the two of you planning to decide where your vote falls?

Correct. We have a hydra PT. We do not plan to decide where our vote falls, only scum do that.

Why, if Luna were lying, would that entail Luna is a bad guy wanting to keep that information hidden as opposed to a good guy?

By obscuring the fact that Luna is more experienced that she admits to be, she leads other players to underestimate her, which has more scum utility than town utility. One of the main objectives of being scum is to mislead. Misleading others about something as minor/non-personal such as experience level may suggest traits of a compulsive liar (bad for town) or a devilish bad guy (bad for town).

Well, I suppose it's entirely possible that every liar in the world has access to the Luna Fox account, but if you're going to call bullshit, I'm going to humbly request that you provide some sort of evidence to back up this assertion.

Are you her lawyer? Otherwise, how will providing evidence to prove my point further advance your win condition?

btw Echo Echo asked me to hydra as well, but I refused. I'm pretty sure I know who he is, too.

You suck.

If you have a genuine post restriction that says you have to comment on the game, boy I feel bad for you.


If you're just doing this for shits and giggles and because you have LITERALLY NOTHING BETTER TO DO. I suggest you stop because I scream.

--- sincerely,
Someone who has only skimmed the game.

You rock.

[Kuroko Network]

There's a reason why it's spoilered. I don't like people reading my private messages.

[Kuroko Network]

Luna Fox, do you have a read on Wisdom yet?

[Kuroko Network]

For the record, I'm scumreading him. I dislike how his reads are lacking in reasoning, specifically his scumread on my slot which appears to be slipping a vote on the player of the day, while not providing an inkling of a scumread or any indication of his thought process.

[Kuroko Network]

VOTE: kuroko

btw Echo Echo asked me to hydra as well, but I refused. I'm pretty sure I know who he is, too.

This seems like a very lazy attempt to slip on a vote on whom he thinks is the largest wagon -- he might not be aware that there is only one vote on me.

I'd expect town to at least say "Oh, and Kuroko is scum", or "I agree with Tammy's points" before making that vote. However, his subsequent statement does not have any link whatsoever to any reasoning for his vote.

Also, I doubt he knows who I am.

[Kuroko Network]

There's a reason why it's spoilered. I don't like people reading my private messages.

You're still not answering my question. If you are aware that Tammy obvtowns, shouldn't you be seeing she is obvious town here? Why the "I don't know if you are town or scum" part?

That's not mutually exclusive. She hasn't obvtowned yet.

What were you specifically trying to understand with your question?

[Kuroko Network]

Then why don't you just simply ask?
Also ftr the only reason i'd have to believe Wisdom of being town is his response towards your read on Tammy, imo everything he's posted is null since unexplained reads can be done by anyone.

His mistake has been made, and scum slips are by definition, done unwittingly.

We catch players' mistakes upon them committing it, not by rectifying it later.

You and I both know that Wisdom, if scum, is able to weasel out of something as simple as this.

[Kuroko Network]

You know she obvtowns as town yet you're not sure if she's town or scum?

I know that she obvtowns as town. That's a fact. General knowledge.

I'm not sure if she's town or scum. That's information specific to this game. Information that I am not privy to. Do you know if she's town? You seem to be insinuating such a thing.

[Kuroko Network]

VOTE: Wisdom

Pieguy can shift the vote back to Fluff Central if she wants to, but for now I believe that I have caught scum-wisdom.

[Kuroko Network]

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

Hello Bins. Welcome to the game.

Please leave your thoughts and reads on the following players:

[Tammy, Oil Tycoons, Wall of Fire, Zelink2, Luna Fox, Wisdom.]

Do ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them in a timely manner.

I would love to hear your input.

[Kuroko Network]

Then why don't you just simply ask?
Also ftr the only reason i'd have to believe Wisdom of being town is his response towards your read on Tammy, imo everything he's posted is null since unexplained reads can be done by anyone.

His mistake has been made, and scum slips are by definition, done unwittingly.

We catch players' mistakes upon them committing it, not by rectifying it later.

You and I both know that Wisdom, if scum, is able to weasel out of something as simple as this.

1) Well i tend to always speak my mind, sometimes this comes as "I think X is town" or "I think X is scum", while I usually try to accompany it with a reason, sometimes I forget to mention it, so i don't think someone not mentioning a reason cant be fixed by plain asking them, if they are scum their reasons will be fake.
2) I don't know Wisdom, unless i met him offsite? who are you?

*sigh*

Right. You don't know Wisdom. You don't know me, either.


Do you know the scenario where scum try to hop onto a mislynch wagon with a naked vote? A vote without reasoning? Now, Wisdom is performing this by the book, attempting to mouth a sentence about Echo to make it appear like reasoning for the vote, but upon a close read, is actually irrelevant and has no logical flow.

[Kuroko Network]

Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

No, I don't know you. I've never played in a game with Wisdom before. I just looked at your most recent 5 scumgames and deduced that you were scum following your scum meta.

[Kuroko Network]

(In case people can't follow me, the above post was obviously sarcasm.)

I mean, fuck, you say that you think you know who I am, and you ask a stupid question like that? What is that meant to accomplish?

Right now, it appears that you are asking questions to seem like you are contributing, but in actuality do not advance the gamestate at all and are just merely fluff.

[Kuroko Network]

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

Hello Bins. Welcome to the game.

Please leave your thoughts and reads on the following players:

[Tammy, Oil Tycoons, Wall of Fire, Zelink2, Luna Fox, Wisdom.]

Do ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them in a timely manner.

I would love to hear your input.

cool! I'm gonna probably do my best to give input on everyone that's posted but I'll pay extra attention to those players now.

This is so formal it makes me giggly.

As long as you're happy!

[Kuroko Network]

do I explain my reads as town?

Yes, you post a one liner. stating "X is scum" before placing your vote.

You do not attempt to obfuscate by posting a random statement related to the player you're voting that has no link whatsoever.

You're attempting to compensate a reason that is entirely does not make sense with your actions.

[Kuroko Network]

You continue to obfuscate by pursuing a line of questioning that eventually provide little of value to the overall gamestate.

You have yet to consider the posts of players in a holistic manner and deduce their alignment.

You fail to provide reads on more players despite your self-proclaimed genius at catching scum in the early game.

In short, you're not scumhunting. Ergo, you're scum.

[Kuroko Network]

Here is a link to Wisdom's most recent Large Theme non-ongoing scumgame.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=62167

To those of you who were following the game: Do you want this? Do you really want this?

Vote for a better tomorrow. Vote Wisdom.

[Kuroko Network]

Please continue to post irrelevant bullshit in response to being caught. I'll wait for the other players to follow my lead, and you shall be forced to night kill me, failing which, the rest of your team will go insane and crumble as I pick out their brains one by one.

[Kuroko Network]

Bring your friends.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm going to go ahead and respond to this now; I'll respond to other stuff after I finish catching up.

I also don't understand why on earth this leads to you scumreading notscience, actually. Do you find it's usually in his scum MO to "discredit townreads" on people? Was there a particular need to discredit townreads there? Do you think notscience would be aware of all of those things that you pointed out but decided to ignore them as scum because ???.

Yes? The entire point is that he wouldn't want a bunch of town players to identify each other early game and so he'd attempt to spread paranoia over it.

In reality, if scum attempts to fake information related to the setup, it wouldn't look like that (which is where my town read on Kagami came from in the first place). Scum faking it wouldn't potentially clear two players. They'd probably be able to make up something that looks believable, yeah, but I would imagine there are a lot of other things they could have done - there is no reason they'd do something to attempt to mass clear people. For instance, why wouldn't it work if Kagami came in here and post the exact same thing she did, just omitting the part where the two players were likely town? That would be a perfectly viable course of action for scum-Kagami that'd be more optimal for her.

But it didn't read like notsci was attempting to consider any of this. It felt robotic, as if he thought he'd think "setup spec != town" and there it was.

This is where my issue with it lies.

I also didn't really like you calling notscience scum for the lyncher theory because there isn't likely a lyncher in the game; notscience having random crazy paranoid theories isn't anything new and you should be judging them based on how real they sound, not how plausible they are.

That's exactly the fucking point. I don't believe he would *actually* think there would be a lyncher in this setup.

If this was, for instance, an entirely closed/predetermined setup, I wouldn't have any problem with it because occasionally weird roles can pop up in closed setups and I know that he tends to spec crazy stuff sometimes. But it's not, it's a upick setup, and upick setups are pure town vs. mafia basically all of the time. And this is really just common sense. It read like he thought that worrying about a lyncher in the game would be a good angle to push to emulate his usual setup spec, without realizing that a lyncher in this game is basically impossible.

[Kuroko Network]

And scum notsci is sure as hell capable of faking the level of engagement he's had in this game so far. I'm not sure why you disagree and I would expect you'd know better than that.

[Kuroko Network]

I have no idea what the hell Echo is going on about re Tammy. I have a town read on her and my eyes are essentially glazing over all of it at this point.

Wisdom's posting is, put bluntly, scummy as fuck. I think he can be fairly transparently read based on the level of conviction and effort he puts into his pushes, and his push on our slot is severely lacking in that department. There's no pointed questioning and no actual "push" anywhere towards us during his push on us (rather than actually, you know, providing actual reasons for using be scum here, he spends all his time talking about who he thinks Echo is). I want Nacho to tell me if/why he disagrees with this when he gets back.

[Kuroko Network]

Kuroko Network (hydra of echo echo and pieguyn) - entry is null. Meh to the nod to the Oil Tycoon town read. The FC (hey, thats us!) vote was god awful. Wait, was that pie? I honestly can't tell. I'm not sure if I can distinguish bad reasons/fake reasons yet.

It sure was.

The fact that your reaction was to entirely ignore my reasoning (from notsci) and now to come in and handwave dismiss it as "stretching to find reasons" (from you) is also telling.

[Kuroko Network]

where am i pushing you exactly, pie? because you know, for a push to be weak, it has to be a push first.

So, you're claiming that you're not pushing us, yet your vote is on us.

Are you fucking serious?

[Kuroko Network]

I think that the way he handled the Luna situation was pretty smooth if he's scum, but my reasoning there is pretty advanced and I don't think I'm going to waste my time explaining it to a 2015

If it's solely because he questioned the town read on him, that's ridiculously easy to fake (and it's actually something that I'll occasionally go out of my way *to* do as scum because people town read it).

If there's more to it than that, walk me through it.

[Kuroko Network]

mhm

Why are you overreacting over a vote?

HAHA

You can't claim that your vote is on us (when we so *happen* to be the leading wagon) and say that you're not trying to push us. That's flat-out wrong in just about every way it's possible for something to be wrong, and you claiming otherwise is semantic bullshit.

So, answer why you're voting us, but not attempting to put any effort whatsoever into actually questioning or engaging with us.

[Kuroko Network]

Outside of his "looks town" reads, Anen's reads list looks incredibly safe; I'd like to see him elaborate more on his scum reads/leans when he gets back.

[Kuroko Network]

I don't like the way Cephrir is handling this, and his above post is no exception. It's not scum hunting, it's him seeing votes on us and thinking he can go along with it while hoping no one realizes his push doesn't hold water. 477 is nothing but semantic nonsense (it's fairly obvious Echo's point is that Wisdom does have reasoning behind the read on us, just that it's incredibly poor). The post where he voted us (Echo's 421) is actually a fairly concise explanation of what is wrong with Wisdom's play here, followed by more semantic nonsense (Echo wasn't even suggesting a policy lynch in that post).

I don't mind AJ's vote as much.

[Kuroko Network]

Well, yes. In my eyes he's less "discrediting" and moreso "pointing out that this is a bad reason to think Kagami is town".

You disagree?

Also, hello Pie. Would you care for some tea, crumpets and some civilised conversation?

I'm assuming this is Syr?

Why do I have a feeling that you dislike everyone that disagrees with you =/

If I think somebody is BS'ing a push on me, then damn right I'm going to call them on it.

Someone disagreeing with or scum reading me doesn't in any way preclude me pushing them.

[Kuroko Network]

Your wagon looks town-driven to me, pie.

What do you think of Wisdom?

[Kuroko Network]

Luna, how much experience do you have with Wisdom (I'm assuming none or not much because you're relatively new here)?

The ... one question he asked us that you liked is very easily fakeable.

[Kuroko Network]

Somewhat town-leany.

Y

FG thinks the wagon should be allowed through, which is in part motivated by his distaste for your avatar. I think it seriously bothers him and you might want to switch it.

>.>

[Kuroko Network]

I don't feel that I have seen Wisdom push you at all really until you brought the issue up, and that post definitely reads like "wisdom is dangerous scum/not fun to play with so we should just lynch him"

Yes, that is exactly my point.

If Wisdom actually thought we were scum, he would be doing a hell of a lot more to push us over it than ... what he has been doing.

[Kuroko Network]

I am current. Unfortunately I have a lot of shit going on rn so any more detailed posting/further engagement will have to wait an hour or so.

Current scum reads are Wisdom, WoF, and FC in about that order.

[Kuroko Network]

I don't really see anything that I strongly associate with his scumplay. I don't think your point is especially compelling, and it seems like his initial vote was to feel out something that he developed a stronger opinion on based on your response.

I think the sheer fact he's done nothing and needs to "feel out" something in the first place is indicative of his scum play. In my experience with him as town, he doesn't hesitate to latch onto the smallest thing as soon as he sees it and start hard pushing it. As just the most recent example, AP's micro where he pushed ETL straight out the gate based on what he perceived as a PT slip; it was fairly obvious that he was attempting to convince people of what he saw and attempting to get as many votes on her as possible. As another, Touhou Makai where me and him strongarmed the shit out of everything the majority of the game.

From what I've seen, that kind of play is what is most definitive of his town game. On the other hand, his scum game is drastically more passive and reactive, and when he *does* push something, it feels half-hearted, as if he's just doing it for the sake of doing it. I think that if he was town here, and had an "unsure" read on us, there would be a lot more active questioning of our posts and there'd be a far more noticeable effort to attempt to refine the read other way. What he did here was park his vote on us, despite apparently not even thinking we were scum (which he did say), and then leave said vote there without any engagement with us the entire time until I came in and started pushing him. The only attempt to sort through us was 397, which he doesn't seem to be pushing anymore and hasn't seemed to reach a conclusion on either way. Which, surprise, reads more like he's pushing stuff for the sake of it rather than actually believing what we're saying.

I also don't really feel comfortable saying that scum are sitting there because they have no idea how to react to my wagon; I think if scum saw a significant amount of early suspicion on me, they would be perfectly fine with jumping on it. I also think there's still a fair amount of people who haven't had much of a chance to catch up in full and develop an opinion either way on it.

Supposing that you're correct to say my wagon is town driven and scum have no idea how to react to it, who would you be looking at for scum?

[Kuroko Network]

The fact that ZeL isn't even addressing recent posts either makes it confirmed a PR or confirmed he's just fucking with us.

Are you referencing his comical style of writing, or the fact that he's wall posting page by page? I skimmed through a past game of his and it seems wall posting is unique to this game.

He's a newb and trying to find his way.

Why did you choose him to meta?

Are you saying Zelink is a newb? He has a high post count to be a newb .

It was an on-the-spot decision because I was curious to see whether his play style is always like this, wall posting and all, or if it's a post restriction.

Regardless, I'm going to have to meta a lot of people.. not only because I'm unfamiliar with all, but also because my role demands that I garner as much knowledge about the players as I can so I can make a proper decision.

He only joined in March of this year; therefore, he's a newb. Besides only newbs respond to every single post.

Tammy this is wrong. You were in Imperium, you should've known better.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=15793

Why are you trolling Muki? >_>

Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm catching up, chill. Also, stop calling us Kurecho please. It's Kuroko. 黑子。

[Kuroko Network]

Plus, really, responding to jokes is about timing. If it's a few posts too late, I usually ignore them. You're being too sensitive, Tammy-dear.

[Kuroko Network]

Talk to me, Tammy. I check last posts frequently. Ask me questions. Engage me.

[Kuroko Network]

Tammy decides to decline my invitation. Oh well.

[Kuroko Network]

Spoiler: Bins posts

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

How about some reads?
Do you agree with my vote on you and reasons?
Do you agree with kuruko's vote and reasons?

Uhm, I haven't really read in depth yet. I can do that now.

I obviously do not agree with you vote on me.

RESKIM TIME.

Alright, I guess we're doing this the good ol' fashioned way. Because I'm too lazy to deal with this logging out thing, I'm just gonna type this all messy and ignore format and quoting. Hueahhh. And like update it while I read further. I don't care if this doesn't make sense to you, this is for me and teachers always told me to show my work.


Tammy - entry is null. I'm definitely not townreading Tammy at this point. HOWEVER, I do like the KN read/push/questions that are very well deserved.
Oil Tycoons (hydra of Nachomamma8 and Syryana) - entry is ehhHHHhh. Overall, I feel like I'm going to give a really shit read here but I think that they

can

be scum. That's what I have.
BRantz - I don't like his reads.
Medea the Alien (hydra of penguin_alien and Cabd) - Medea is null. Nothing has necessarily struck me as town or scum.
Ika Zaru (hydra of Ika and Malakittens) - overall meh.
Fluff Central (hydra of notscience and bins) - :3 secret: I skim Notty's posts.
Wall of Fire (hydra of Cephrir and Mastin2) - my initial first impression of their posting is town. I continue to have a null town read on them.
Wisdom - I feel like there's going to be a weird part of me that wants to meta Wisdom because I respect his scum game as a player BUT I like his reads so far and he hasn't pinged me and that's enough for me. I have to reread the stuff that just happened.
Konowa - entry is null. I feel like this read can sadly go either way (I HAVE TOO MANY OF THESE, GIVE ME INTERACTIONS)
Perpetual Nonsense (Hydra of Bert and SXTLHGaiden) - The Collective's entry was fine. I like them so far.
Kuroko Network (hydra of echo echo and pieguyn) - entry is null. Meh to the nod to the Oil Tycoon town read. The FC (hey, thats us!) vote was god awful. Wait, was that pie? I honestly can't tell. I'm not sure if I can distinguish bad reasons/fake reasons yet.
ZeL1nK2 - I'm not reading his posts out of spite until I get an answer to my question.
Kamigami (hydra of Kagami and FakeGod) - Kagami's entry is town but it's nothing to bet the game on.
Luna Fox - hahahHAHAEH AEH. I'm sorry. Lost my cool. Probably town. Meh, Oil Tycoon "town" read. But if Tammy is scum, then Luna is town. And ALSO, I sort of like the whole "I like this person for _____" and blah, but that pretty much solidifies in my mind that they are definitely an alt. I'm going to leave it at that though because I really, really don't care.

people who haven't posted/haven't posted enough for me to gage a read.
Klingoncelt
Aneninen - z 1 post.
LynxKuroneko - meh.
AJ the Epic
Muki- zz. one post.
ProHawk
Idiocy (hydra of Tiershift and farside22)

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

How about some reads?
Do you agree with my vote on you and reasons?
Do you agree with kuruko's vote and reasons?

Sooo...

2) No. I don't think people need to wear their reads on the palm of their hand. Honestly, I find it sort of odd that you're literally calling out your opinion of everyone. It makes me think that you're town, but it's more out of place than someone having to be asked for reads before giving them. I mean, singling out Notty for that is wrong, many other players in this game are guilty of it. And it's null. Scum can make readlists early and town can keep their mouth shut. Play style, maaaan. Especially in this playerlist, I don't think it's out of place at all.

I feel weird answering this question.

3) Definitely not. And it's 100x scummier than your vote. It looks like he's trying to grasp on to justifications.

All you have to say about my slot is that my entrance is meh and I could be scum?

Bins? Don't do this to me.

Sorry,

I really don't know how to approach a read on you and notty isn't being helpful at all.

Because I can't really be like "just pretend they aren't someone you've played with before", because that isn't 100% true. There's this weird influence in my head (actually, that little voice might be notty pestering me on Facebook) that I need to actually interact with you to get a read. Because I keep telling myself "yeah, that post is towny but I mean they could still be scum."

I really like Bins' posts here. They seem genuine and carefree which are traits that I look for in a town player, and especially in town-Bins. Her eagerness to cooperate strikes a strong chord and the carelessness of having to format the posts reads as if she is not worried about others' perceptions, which scum would be more focussed on. I figure that there is more town motivation in getting thoughts and reads out to the others than formatting it for maximum towncred, where Bins performed the former. I also like her evaluation of our vote on them, which actually suggests a player who is looking for scum on their wagon -- basically Bins is trying to sieve out the bullshit. Overall, I'm having Bins (and hence, Fluff Central) for strong town.

I don't think he's playing particularly well as either alignment. What do you think he's done well, if scum?

I think that the way he handled the Luna situation was pretty smooth if he's scum, but my reasoning there is pretty advanced and I don't think I'm going to waste my time explaining it to a 2015

*cough*

^why not?

Note to self: Idiocy never answered this.

also guys make your alts less obvious

i thought i was wrong in my initial prediction of who luna is, but i'm most likely right again

Cheater.

Kurecho - I did respond to 286, but I really don’t understand why you asked it in the first place. It felt like a throwaway question and one designed to kind of buddy Nacho. Being illiterate has nothing to do with not interpreting a typographical error anymore than my age has to do with me using the word “guffaw”. He was trolling me and I joked back in response; I think that is pretty clear if you’re following the conversation. I think if you’re scum that Nacho is someone you would want on your good side, so that’s what it felt like you were doing there.

Yes, I have a reputation for obvtowning, though I’d argue that over the past year that’s gotten a bit spotty, but that doesn’t mean that scum don’t attack me. I’m also easy to distract and sometimes get emotional which makes it easy to discredit my thoughts at times. I try to do better but I suck at it sometimes.

I’ve had scum attack me lots of times. Scum have tunneled on me because they think it makes them look town. Scum have used fake paranoia on me. Scum have soft-pushed me. Scum have attacked me for weird ass reasons. Scum have attacked me simply because it gave them something to do. In Tales of Vesperia, the entire scum team attacked me day one. So, no it’s not a town tell to attack me, especially when I think the “attack” stemmed from you trying to show Nacho you were on his side.

(I’m not sure if there’s anything else I wanted to respond to in this. The site’s down, so when I get a chance to reread over what I read this morning, I’ll get to it then.)

Tammy, I'm going to spell it out to you. It was a joke. The question in 286, was a joke. I wanted to get a reaction from you. Either you did not see it or ignored it (probably did not see it), so I made another joke, which was in bad taste. I can understand why you would find it weird if you didn't see 286, but perhaps you could have thought first "Hey, Echo is insulting my interpretive skills after I joked about Nacho's interpretive skills... is that a joke or what?" instead of, you know, doing

that

? You do realize now why I lost my "sense of humor" in #736 right?

The reason expressed is that you think he tried to slip a vote onto the largest wagon and made a mistake, or that he simply didn't give enough reason? Because he votes page 16, near top (which would've been on page 16 if the bullshit by zelink2 wasn't posted). Page topped on 15 is a vote count clearly showing Fluff to have the highest vote count.


vote:kurokoNetwork

Both. I was the main topic of discussion, being which, he slips a vote

while

giving not enough reason.

Your vote is stinky enough that I suspect that you're Wisdom's partner. I noticed Wall of Fire's naked vote, but naked votes are more null for me -- I consider it a scumtell when a player slips a vote with preamble that does not logically lead to a vote. Why did you ask that question, with the intent to clarify, while sleazily slipping a vote without justification. Specifically, why did you place a vote with a reason that is actually not a reason?

Why'd you ask about those specific players?

They're the players who have posted enough content for me to get a read on, and thus should also be good points for Bins to begin getting reads as well. I forgot to include myself, though.

Have you guys realized I'm a special town snowflake yet?

Yes. Special post dedicated to special snowflake here.

I'm sorry for outing who I thought you were. That was in really bad form. It's not an insult to think you were elusive though, as I enjoyed playing with her in zodiac.

Cool. I'm definitely not elusive though, so you can strike that off your list. That was kind of funny, haha.

Kuroko huh.
For some reason i thought it was Kurobo.

Soon, someone should call me Kuribo.

VOTE: kuroko

I feel this is the right place to vote rn

Bullshit.

VOTE: kuroko

I feel this is the right place to vote rn

Why?

This question never gets answered as well.

(it's fairly obvious Echo's point is that Wisdom does have reasoning behind the read on us, just that it's incredibly poor)

Correction: Wisdom attempts to pass of bullshit as reasoning for voting us, leading me to think that his true reasons for voting us are scum-motivated.

Your wagon looks town-driven to me, pie.

With regard to this, yes, the wagon was started by town, but scum have decided that it was a good idea to hop on.

maybe Wisdom didn't think you are scum?

Yeah, because you know who the scum are, so your job is to bullshit pushes on townies. Thanks for admitting that your vote on us was bullshit, as I correctly called out, though!

Kuroko Network (6): Perpetual Nonsense, Oil Tycoons, Wisdom, Wall of Fire, Aj The Epic, Idiocy

After I called Wisdom's friends to join him, here's what the wagon has ballooned into. Free hypothetical cookies to whomever can catch the scum on my wagon.

Let me just restrain myself with the maxim: "Correlation does not imply causation." I am, however, tempted to call this causative.

Fluff is a person of interest if that's correct.

I'm also not crazy about muki regardless of wagon composition.

Could be as simple as wisdom-scum. Who do you think makes sense as a theoretical wisdom-partner?

My answers are Aj the Epic and Idiocy.

Also,
VOTE: Wisdom.

Have you finally seen the light? Share your story with us, so that we can help the others who are in need of salvation. Give us your testimony. Help the blind.

I thought you town read ffery/nacho in forest

fire

primarily because he pointed out that you, as town, have a tendency to push back and scum read people who scum read you. Am i misinterpreting that?

Fire is bad for business!

//30

[Kuroko Network]

My scumreads are {Wisdom, Aj the Epic, Idiocy}


Vote with Kuroko 2016.



Lynch Wisdom for a better tomorrow! (No, seriously, he's scum.)

[Kuroko Network]

FakeGod my apologies for the previous avatar, hope this one gives you less motion sickness, while still giving you a healthy dose of Kuroko!

[Kuroko Network]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61431 This was in our hydra PT.

Bugger off.

[Kuroko Network]

If anybody actually bothers to check these links, then they can decide for themselves.

[Kuroko Network]

you can't meta me, just stop trying.

Yeah, people can't meta you because you spam the shit out of games and are always on a race to become top poster or something. I took a look at 2 of the games pieguy showed me. When you're town, you post evidently town posts. Conversely if you're scum, most of them comes off as bullshit. I don't expect anybody (sans Zelink, he appears to have a lot of time on his hands) to actually bother to ISO you, so I'll just wait for others who have played with you before to corroborate my claims.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm not mastin. Mastin is already in the Wall of Fire hydra.

[Kuroko Network]

Oh look, the cavalry arrived. How cute. Welcome back, Wisdom.

There has been no push on Kuroko, or anyone else, from me, therefore arguing that my push on them is weak and different than how I push as town is bullshit, because simply, I have not pushed them.

See, this is the problem, right here. You're misrepresenting my argument. I never said that you were pushing us, my issue lies in the fact how you

didn't

push us. You slipped a shit vote on us with horseshit that is meant to make you look like you have something worthwhile doing.

Speaking of your pushes, where have they been? Surely you have caught up already. After I've knocked you out of control in the game, your scumface has nowhere to hide and is ripe for the noose. As town you would already have obtained a couple of townreads on people, and scumread at least one person, while pushing or defending them as the situation calls. Right now, you're voting someone you aren't even scumreading. This is not even town behavior, not even for your standards.

Wait, I'm supposed to let the "Yes Wisdom meant to vote for the largest wagon but is blinder than Stevie Wonder" go? How is the pure fabricated bullshit of 'he didn't read a vote count' a legitimate belief?

You fool. The entire topic of discussion was about myself for the past few pages. Just after your post, it came right from the horse's mouth that he was "sheeping" strong town voices. It comes as no surprise that he decides to put a vote on the easiest target (keeping in mind that your largest aforementioned wagon had only three votes) while fabricating justification that doesn't really pass the bullshit test. Meanwhile, you continue with this elementary angle of attack based upon your incorrect semantic assumptions about the crux of my argument, while ignoring the main motivations behind my push on Wisdom.

And then you want to tell me a naked vote is more null to you?

Did I not already make a statement that a naked vote is null, while one that is embellished with bullshit to look like a reasonable vote is scummy? Then I'll say it again.

But by definition, that's a naked vote. So you like select naked votes by select people. But now the fact that he didn't explain his town reads is an issue and, on the vote, it was unexplained and so also an issue. And certainly, WoF's vote on you had the prior reasons of, and I quote, ":/". There are quotes where he specifies what makes him ":/" but nothing much more than Wisdom's own vote. You're picking and choosing what you like, not by some scum tell, but by preconceived notions.

This is a strawman argument. Continue defending your buddy with semantic bullshit while twisting my words to fit your agenda. Wisdom's vote included overtly unnecessary redressive action that was inappropriate for an ordinary town-motivated "naked" vote. Feel free to call it whatever it is you wish, maybe a "clothed" vote. Because underneath, it's just skin and bones.

Aj The Epic diving in like Wisdom's knight of shining armor while delivering misrepresentations of my argument only confirm my belief that I have caught two scum, with one case.

Tell me, Aj, for the record, are you townreading Wisdom? Why?

(I've noticed some new posts, will get to them in my next post.)

[Kuroko Network]

I'm calling it crap because you accuse us of not responding to the questions asked when neither of us had posted since the questions where asked.

Who the fuck are you kidding? PN asked you in 448 why you don't want to lynch Wisdom when he's annoying, and TierShift makes a post directly after that in 449, and you defend yourself by saying "neither of us had posted since the questions were asked"? Do you think we are blind??

For those of you at home, this is the post progression:

^why not?

This is a game with a fuckton of hydra, so we all need to be considerate of our postcounts. Please please please try to keep them under control, if someone's posting gets over the top out of control they need to be purged

Notscience:

1) Good luck getting us lynched because I'm sure as fuck not going to artificially deflate my post when it's fun to post and I'm in the greatest hydra on both side of the Mississippi.

2) If you're serious about changing the spam meta, the important things to cut down on are more objective than postcount. I've never understood why it is difficult to scroll past a string of 5 posts of someone having fun. In my opinion, it's the protracted arguments where people say the same thing over and over again instead of looking and comprehending another player's argument that provide damage to game state and the way you change that is by playing with extra care and consideration, not by threatening to policy lynch people who don't play the way you want them to.

-Grandpa Oil

Cabd's playing well if scum.
I would rather talk to penguin though because penguin!!!

No offense Cabd

Unfortunately that's not as viable

Spoiler: IRL Shit, people who don't care can skip

She had a knee blowout tonight and is sort of in incredible amounts of pain, so posting will be limited and likely venty; direct questions can be relayed through me if need be. If she's feeling better she'll hop back in but no major promises.

Tell her I hope she feels better!

Also, I'm treating you like a live snake until further notice, Cabd.

what do you think?

[Kuroko Network]

So what is your point?

[Kuroko Network]

No seriously I want to know. Are you going to tell me Kuro that you were never posting a response to something and had to go?
Or never seen someone post something and left without fucking answering questions asked 3 fucking minutes prior to a post that was in regards to something entirely different?

Oh, so now it is my fault that Tier had to go and didn't see the post right in front of his, but somehow earlier you said my point was crap because "neither of us had posted since the questions were asked"?

Fine...

How do you explain this post then?

VOTE: kuroko

I feel this is the right place to vote rn

[Kuroko Network]

If you didn't say my point was crap, instead just said something along the lines of "Oops, Tier missed that post" or something along that line, I wouldn't be having this push.

My point is perfectly valid and you trying to attack me for it reads scum-motivated.

[Kuroko Network]

No, right now it's the three on my list.

[Kuroko Network]

What do you like about Idiocy's points?

[Kuroko Network]

:/

What do you think about her reads on Muki, Fluffy, and Medea?

[Kuroko Network]

Are you better at reading notscience or Bins? Can you flesh out your Fluff Central read? I need to have a talk with pieguy with regard to that slot too later. Specifically, what are your feelings of Bins posts?

[Kuroko Network]

I purposely ignored your question because it's pointless busiwork. Everything was clearly explained in the post you called "crap" which I have proven not to be. Do you want to rescind that accusation?

[Kuroko Network]

Are you better at reading notscience or Bins? Can you flesh out your Fluff Central read? I need to have a talk with pieguy with regard to that slot too later. Specifically, what are your feelings of Bins posts?

Bins for me.

farside, there were 3 questions in that post. If you want to ninja somebody's else's question, can you at least answer all three of them?

[Kuroko Network]

Are you better at reading notscience or Bins?

What is this supposed to mean. Which read im feeling better about? I don't know how i'm supposed to read any of them better than the other and i don't even know which posts are which.

Can you flesh out your Fluff Central read?

Still disliking the Kamigami discredit, specially since as you guys know now, i know at least one of those 2 exists (being me). And obscuring their thoughts instead of laying them out (Now that i think about it, Idiocy did the same thing, but they said they could be asked as opposed to Fluff specifically stating that they weren't willing to share back then)
Liked the way fluff posted when i was asking them if they agreed with my vote on them.

Specifically, what are your feelings of Bins posts?

Which are those?

Fair enough.

What are your thoughts of these posts: Do any of them strike you a certain way, or give you alignment vibes? Do read them.

Spoiler: Bins posts

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

How about some reads?
Do you agree with my vote on you and reasons?
Do you agree with kuruko's vote and reasons?

Uhm, I haven't really read in depth yet. I can do that now.

I obviously do not agree with you vote on me.

RESKIM TIME.

Alright, I guess we're doing this the good ol' fashioned way. Because I'm too lazy to deal with this logging out thing, I'm just gonna type this all messy and ignore format and quoting. Hueahhh. And like update it while I read further. I don't care if this doesn't make sense to you, this is for me and teachers always told me to show my work.


Tammy - entry is null. I'm definitely not townreading Tammy at this point. HOWEVER, I do like the KN read/push/questions that are very well deserved.
Oil Tycoons (hydra of Nachomamma8 and Syryana) - entry is ehhHHHhh. Overall, I feel like I'm going to give a really shit read here but I think that they

can

be scum. That's what I have.
BRantz - I don't like his reads.
Medea the Alien (hydra of penguin_alien and Cabd) - Medea is null. Nothing has necessarily struck me as town or scum.
Ika Zaru (hydra of Ika and Malakittens) - overall meh.
Fluff Central (hydra of notscience and bins) - :3 secret: I skim Notty's posts.
Wall of Fire (hydra of Cephrir and Mastin2) - my initial first impression of their posting is town. I continue to have a null town read on them.
Wisdom - I feel like there's going to be a weird part of me that wants to meta Wisdom because I respect his scum game as a player BUT I like his reads so far and he hasn't pinged me and that's enough for me. I have to reread the stuff that just happened.
Konowa - entry is null. I feel like this read can sadly go either way (I HAVE TOO MANY OF THESE, GIVE ME INTERACTIONS)
Perpetual Nonsense (Hydra of Bert and SXTLHGaiden) - The Collective's entry was fine. I like them so far.
Kuroko Network (hydra of echo echo and pieguyn) - entry is null. Meh to the nod to the Oil Tycoon town read. The FC (hey, thats us!) vote was god awful. Wait, was that pie? I honestly can't tell. I'm not sure if I can distinguish bad reasons/fake reasons yet.
ZeL1nK2 - I'm not reading his posts out of spite until I get an answer to my question.
Kamigami (hydra of Kagami and FakeGod) - Kagami's entry is town but it's nothing to bet the game on.
Luna Fox - hahahHAHAEH AEH. I'm sorry. Lost my cool. Probably town. Meh, Oil Tycoon "town" read. But if Tammy is scum, then Luna is town. And ALSO, I sort of like the whole "I like this person for _____" and blah, but that pretty much solidifies in my mind that they are definitely an alt. I'm going to leave it at that though because I really, really don't care.

people who haven't posted/haven't posted enough for me to gage a read.
Klingoncelt
Aneninen - z 1 post.
LynxKuroneko - meh.
AJ the Epic
Muki- zz. one post.
ProHawk
Idiocy (hydra of Tiershift and farside22)

Bins is here at last and has about an hour!


Engage her!

How about some reads?
Do you agree with my vote on you and reasons?
Do you agree with kuruko's vote and reasons?

Sooo...

2) No. I don't think people need to wear their reads on the palm of their hand. Honestly, I find it sort of odd that you're literally calling out your opinion of everyone. It makes me think that you're town, but it's more out of place than someone having to be asked for reads before giving them. I mean, singling out Notty for that is wrong, many other players in this game are guilty of it. And it's null. Scum can make readlists early and town can keep their mouth shut. Play style, maaaan. Especially in this playerlist, I don't think it's out of place at all.

I feel weird answering this question.

3) Definitely not. And it's 100x scummier than your vote. It looks like he's trying to grasp on to justifications.

All you have to say about my slot is that my entrance is meh and I could be scum?

Bins? Don't do this to me.

Sorry,

I really don't know how to approach a read on you and notty isn't being helpful at all.

Because I can't really be like "just pretend they aren't someone you've played with before", because that isn't 100% true. There's this weird influence in my head (actually, that little voice might be notty pestering me on Facebook) that I need to actually interact with you to get a read. Because I keep telling myself "yeah, that post is towny but I mean they could still be scum."

[Kuroko Network]

Well it was a fact that you were "not responding to a question", so I don't know why you're getting so defensive when you could've just said "Oh, I didn't see the question. Sorry!" and leave it like that. The fact that you're pushing back and attempting to paint me as suspicious reads scum-motivated.

[Kuroko Network]

Well, it's not crap, because it's true.

[Kuroko Network]

Oh man, now we drop logical fallacies like skrillex drops bass. You called WoF's vote naked. A naked vote is something with little to no reasoning. Something both WoF's and Wisdom's vote share. There's no misrepresentation to say you're saying one is fine but going nuts over the other for the same reason.

Once again you misrepresesnt my point. Correct, I called WoF's vote naked, but Wisdom's vote is not the same. That's the crux of my argument. I did a CTRL+F of the word "naked" in my ISO and in 411 I stated a hypothetical scenario where scum hop onto mislynch wagons with naked votes. That does not contradict my stance about naked votes being a nulltell, so I find it quite difficult to imagine you continually throw shit at my argument, when I repeat multiple times that WoF's vote, and Wisdom's vote, are not the same.

You say his vote is 'redressive', what is he trying to remedy? He has FOUR POSTS after he posts that. One is a confirm, one an RVS and one a catch-up post. How can you remedy what doesn't exist? The issue is, your push on wisdom is exactly the same reason you think WoF's vote is fine. Riddle me how the two are different enough to each warrant a scum and null read respectively.

It's redressive because he has a guilty conscience of plopping naked votes onto town, so he compensates with bullshit reasoning that is. Not. Reasoning. WoF's vote is fine because naked votes are also an action done by town, and town are not bothering to embellish the vote with fabricated reasoning.

Ironically enough, there were two votes on you before wisdom voted.

Really, you say I'm arguing semantics about the crux of your argument but all I read from you are words meant to slip over people's heads and vague references.

And your point is?

My point is that Wisdom's vote is scummy and WoF's is null. You continually try to put in my mouth that they are the same and ask me why one is scummier than the other, when they are simply not the same. Of course one is going to be scummier than the other!

-Easiest Target. Pretty subjective, nothing backing this.
-'fabricating justification that doesn't pass the bullshit test'. What exactly was fabricated? What exactly doesn't pass the bullshit test.

It's funny when you state objectively wrong information. Being the topic of discussion at the point in time the vote was made makes me the easiest target. If you have information to debunk my statement, then do so.

VOTE: kuroko

btw Echo Echo asked me to hydra as well, but I refused. I'm pretty sure I know who he is, too.

This^ does not pass the bullshit test.

This entire sentence can be summed up as 'words'. What you're saying is that I'm saying something you feel is incorrect and missing your point, but you attempt to remedy none of this.

Yeah. I'm not sure how you want me to remedy this when I am accusing you of exactly the same thing that I have been accusing Wisdom of.

So you say once that Wisdom's vote is 'skin and bones underneath'. Here you say a naked vote is null and Wisdom's vote is embellished? But Wisdom's vote was naked and that was the exact first reason you had an issue with it, as I stated in my last post. Would you kindly explain the difference between WoF's and Wisdom's lack of content that makes you have an issue with one vote and not the other? I think the amount of content given by Wisdom is such that only his vote is really relevant in his iso up to that point and WoF's only dealing with you came from that vote and the post prior (at that point).

The first statement is correct. The second question is correct. The third statement is false. Wisdom's vote was not naked. You continuously pushing your line of argument as such while devaluing mine shows that the entire basis of your argument holds nothing. After you agree with me on the terms of discussion that WoF's vote was naked and Wisdom's was

not

naked, then we can have a meaningful discussion -- if you're town.

I have three townreads (Luna, Tammy, PT). I don't actively look for town reads. My philosophy is that town will reveal itself through good play so I just search for scum.

Kuroko Kuroko Kuroko

Doth thou concede no knowledge of whom you instilled bigoted words towards? Let it be heard that I, a level 17 Dwarvish Paladin, am using Smite Evil on thine undead skeleton behind whilst shielding the most fine damsel with Mercy.

Kuroko Kuroko Kuroko

[Kuroko Network]

can we get rid of echo already so we can play this game without noise?

WE have suspicions about who Echo is. Is it someone who WE have played with before?

Same with Luna? Both alts and mafia vets?

Kuroko Kuroko Kuroko

[Kuroko Network]

((That's Kuroko for: "That's a bad topic to talk about!"))

[Kuroko Network]

@OT, PN, Fox,

What should I do to get your support for a Wisdom wagon?

[Kuroko Network]

Luna, because someone says Kuroko is noisy does not a policy lynch make. Do you think Kuroko is town or not? Y/n

[Kuroko Network]

Are you guys fucking kidding me? I hand you all scum on a silver platter and I'm being scumread for it. Next game, I'm going to lurk out Day 1 and fake cop guilty scum every day. Are you guys seriously not seeing what I'm seeing here?

[Kuroko Network]

Okay, let me lay out my case in a clear and concise manner:

Wisdom is scum for placing a shit vote on me, despite not scumreading me, as well as during the post itself overcompensating to make it look like a town vote.
AJ the Epic is scum for the above, as well as coming to Wisdom's defense and misrepresenting my case against Wisdom.
Idiocy is scum for the above, as well as discrediting me by calling my posts "crap".

Is that better?

[Kuroko Network]

[Kuroko Network]

Since it's near the pagetop, thought I'd clarify my readslist with everyone at a nice page number.

Kuroko Network
fluff central
Perpetual Nonsense
Luna Fox
Tammy
Oil Tycoons
kamigami
ZeL1nK2
Muki
Wall of Fire
Aneninem <--- this is the null line
klingoncelt
BRantz
Medea the Alien
Ika Zaru
LynxKuroneko
Konowa
Prohawk <--- this is the null line
Idiocy
Aj The Epic
Wisdom

I just realized how many people haven't posted yet.


Looks like I got too excited about catching scum.

[Kuroko Network]

Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

The most alignment-indicative points for Tammy in my opinion, was, ironically, her argument with me yesterday (was it just yesterday? It felt like a week). Her paranoia in response to the notion that "scum" were attacking her seemed indicative of a town mindset such as one who is trying to look for scum. Her anger and aggressiveness as well doesn't feel fake, especially in consideration of the fact that scum-Tammy is more reserved and more friendly, I would think that scum-Tammy wouldn't blow up like that. I really want her to engage me though because when pushed in the right direction she is easily one of town's best assets and I want to be a part of it.

I find Nacho easier to read than Syryana so most of my read is based on his posts. Him attempting to work with Tammy was a great sign and I think that if he were scum he would just disappear or shut her down or something. Out of the current 4 votes on me, his seems to have the most thought put into it and shows that he is considering the game and looking for scum. He is also asking meaningful questions to others to get reads on them and that is what I like when looking for town. Also he gives me good feels.

[Kuroko Network]

Bins is part of the fluffy account.
I find bins to be wishy washy scum. How is that not clear.

The fact that the exact opposite is true is sort of blah to me.

I mean, I thought you would know that...

Really?
So a lot of null reads should be considered not wishy washy?

I'm going to TL'DR
The kuro bs here.
Kuro accused hydra of dodging a question.
I showed the post was 3 minutes from when the question was asked and kuro still thinks he has a valid point all while ignoring that I made points on why I'm scum reading him and he side stepped a question I asked him, calling it busy work rather then realizing his point about dodging a question was crap.

Please quote all your points on why you're scum reading me because I don't see it in 764 or 568. Where have I "double talked" or why does my push "look fake"?

Your questions were already asking something obvious that I already explained, but because you are not happy here let me requote them for you.

Why is AJ scum

Both. I was the main topic of discussion, being which, he slips a vote while giving not enough reason.

Your vote is stinky enough that I suspect that you're Wisdom's partner. I noticed Wall of Fire's naked vote, but naked votes are more null for me -- I consider it a scumtell when a player slips a vote with preamble that does not logically lead to a vote. Why did you ask that question, with the intent to clarify, while sleazily slipping a vote without justification. Specifically, why did you place a vote with a reason that is actually not a reason?

how can you read Bin's wishy washy crap as town?

I really like Bins' posts here. They seem genuine and carefree which are traits that I look for in a town player, and especially in town-Bins. Her eagerness to cooperate strikes a strong chord and the carelessness of having to format the posts reads as if she is not worried about others' perceptions, which scum would be more focussed on. I figure that there is more town motivation in getting thoughts and reads out to the others than formatting it for maximum towncred, where Bins performed the former. I also like her evaluation of our vote on them, which actually suggests a player who is looking for scum on their wagon -- basically Bins is trying to sieve out the bullshit. Overall, I'm having Bins (and hence, Fluff Central) for strong town.

I understand your insinuation about my hypocrisy about not answering your questions when I pushed for you to answer questions by others, but you're asking me stuff that I already explained in a previous post.

[Kuroko Network]

I just realized how many people haven't posted yet.

This is also what i noticed before.
A lot of people haven't posted, i don't know why we're rushing for a lynch right now. Nor why is anyone not considering that we could all be town arguing while scum is sitting in the back polishing their guns and laughing at us.

You're probably right.

My bad, I'll talk to pie later and see her thoughts on the game and what we should do.

[Kuroko Network]

Speaking of your pushes, where have they been? Surely you have caught up already. After I've knocked you out of control in the game, your scumface has nowhere to hide and is ripe for the noose. As town you would already have obtained a couple of townreads on people, and scumread at least one person, while pushing or defending them as the situation calls. Right now, you're voting someone you aren't even scumreading. This is not even town behavior, not even for your standards.

Fucking this.

Echo has a tendency to get caught up in himself and attempt to respond to/discredit every single thing posted against him, but the crux of what he's saying is solid, and put bluntly, I have no idea how anyone can read Wisdom's posts and not come to the same conclusion because it's fucking obvious if you so much as look at it.

I don't think his pushes on Idiocy or AJ hold as much water; the arguments there seem entirely semantic from both sides of the argument. I can follow what both sides are saying, but think a lot of it is just them misinterpreting each other's posts and talking past each other.

I'm attempting to respond to a lot of shit, it might take me a while to get to some stuff.

[Kuroko Network]

Is that the only reason you're scumreading me?

Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

Whatever, you go talk to pieguy. I'll continue to think you're full of it.

Preview Edit: I'm asking you for the other reasons.

[Kuroko Network]

Right now, you're voting someone you aren't even scumreading. This is not even town behavior, not even for your standards.

Does this count?

[Kuroko Network]

My argument is a non-meta argument. It however, is supported by circumstantial meta evidence.

[Kuroko Network]

Actually, all arguments made on Day 1 are circumstantial, but I'm the best we have.

[Kuroko Network]

This is how I occasionally play scum. This isn't how notscience plays scum; he tries to get into the townblock first by emulating his scumgame as closely as possible.

Why the fuck am I telling you this?

If I saw people town reading a player, and thought it might be inconvenient, then hell yeah I'd sidestep a bit and try to argue down town reads on that player.

Your psych profile here is way oversimplified. I don't know what your point here is or why you think notsci attempting to emulate his town game as scum would preclude him from going off and doing other shit if he saw it fit to do so.

I see no reason why he should consider any of those things. I didn't consider any of those things when I was catching up. You're just putting out a bunch of obscure reasons that notscience should apparently be seeing when that's not the case or anywhere close to it at all.

No, they're not "obscure reasons", they're fairly obvious reasons, and I think anyone who was reading the post objectively should have been able to either realize as much or at the very least acknowledge it and form a stance either way on it.

As far as I can tell, the majority of people are town reading Kamikagami, with the exception of Syr - and in his case, he *still* addressed her entrance. His reasoning went along the lines of "yeah, town would clear people, but there is strong incentive for scum to do the same thing in a large game with a lot of players". Which I don't agree with, but it's the kind of thought process I would expect from a town player who was legitimately skeptical of the Kamikagami claim: he's at the least attempting to consider possibilities for why Kagami would have done it as either alignment.

Notsci didn't do this. He just handwove it because "scum can claim role info straight out the gate". This is what I would expect from a scum player; the reasoning here is incredibly superficial, and there's no attempt to consider possibilities or analyze motivation here. Just "lol, setup != town".

If he said something along the lines of "scum might clear a player", or "Kagami is known for setup shit, I think she'd go out of her way to fake it" or ... actually *responded* to my vote on him where I questioned his reasoning, rather than handwave fucking dismissing it, I wouldn't have had any problem with the way he's approached this. But he didn't, and this is where my issue with it lies.

Why is a lyncher in a upick basically impossible? I don't get your closed setup point... this is a closed setup...
I've been on the site for a while and I've never heard of anything like that before! It sounds like you just made that up based on your personal experience!

It's fairly obvious by "closed" setup I mean one that was designed in advance and not a upick setup that wasn't.

Have you seen any upick game at all recently that's been anything _but_ pure town vs. scum? Because that's exactly what I'm saying. If you join a upick game, it is usually expected it's going to be single faction with no third parties involved. I do not recall him ever spec'ing a third party in any upick up to this.

Is there a reason why you're suddenly reading notscience in a completely way than you normally do? You're also pretending that there's nothing wrong with your approach right now, which isn't actually helping if you're town.

You have no idea how I actually read notsci (or the majority of people, for that matter) if you think the way I'm reading him here is different from the way I usually read him. You should know I read the vast majority of people based on the pushes they make and the arguments they push, and that I usually take major issue if I have reason to believe someone's push is disingenuous. And you should know that I usually don't give a shit about meta unless it factors motivation into account, because it's what leads to stuff like ... you getting town read for "tone" in the majority of your scum games, or me getting town read in Empire's game or S&S because it looked like I believed what I was saying throughout those games.

But, since I have no idea what your issue with the way I'm sorting him actually is, talk to me about why this is apparently "completely different" from the way I usually sort him.

Hi pie.
I read one of your post as a bit of double talk, do you want the quote?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but quote it and I'll respond after I get to everything else?

[Kuroko Network]

Don't understand why it's scummy unless you think scum-wisdom normally has problems with faking conviction, which I don't really think is the case.

That is exactly what I'm saying, yes.

I think in the majority of his scum games, he has trouble adequately faking his usual conviction- compare, for instance, Capcom (which was severely lacking in strong pushes from him) to Saki-game- and that most of his pushes when he's scum come from more of a "push person X so I have something to do for a while" mentality as opposed to actually attempting to put pressure on them, except for cases where he needs to lynch someone for strategic reasons. And yeah he can make strong posts from time to time, but it's easy to fake specific posts in a vacuum. It's about the overall body of work.

Have you ever seen Wisdom as town content to just sit on his ass early game and park his vote with no scum reads and exactly *one* attempt to question a potential scum read about game-related content? Because it's not town play in general, and it's sure as fuck not town play for him either.

[Kuroko Network]

Someone disagreeing with or scum reading me doesn't in any way preclude me pushing them.

I thought you town read ffery/nacho in forest fire primarily because he pointed out that you, as town, have a tendency to push back and scum read people who scum read you. Am i misinterpreting that?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't hesitate to scum read or push people who happen to be pushing me if I have a problem with their push. (Luna was saying it looked like I dislike everyone who disagrees with me)

[Kuroko Network]

And Nacho, I'm only saying this once so pay the fuck attention: you're doing the exact same fucking thing you're telling me I'm doing. You're assuming your methodology for reading notsci is the end-all-be-all, and that I must be scum for reading him in a way that you think doesn't make sense and that you disagree with.

The way you're going about this is absolutely fucking awful and I have no idea what I can do to get you to see as much.

[Kuroko Network]

What about swagtown where he just kinda soft pushed me and put out feelers though?

That was talking about Wisdom not notsci.

Have you seen much of Wisdom's town game? If so, do you think his play here is more reminiscent of that or, for instance, his play in Capcom game which iirc was fairly lacking in strong pushes from his half of the hydra for a lot of the game?

[Kuroko Network]

I was passive and reactive there? Check out how I forced a lurker lynch D1

This is actually blatantly false.

Wisdom didn't do anything to push the Jeanne wagon in Pokemon. In the first place, I was the one who started the wagon. But outside of that, look at this votecount from this game (875).

Subject: Pokémon Generation II uPick — Game Over

Spoiler:

Elm's Notes

McMenno

,

Aeronaut

, and

Jeanne11

have been prodded.

notscience (part of

Seiko x Naomi

) is V/LA until

Thu Apr 23

@ 00 EST

. (Hydra activity is still expected.)

	FERALIGATR THE BIG JAW POKéMON HT 7'7'' WT 195.8 lb
Although it has a massive body, its powerful hind legs enable it to move quickly, even on the ground.

VOTECOUNT 1.08

• (0)

  Aeronaut

  —
  
  
  (0)

  BlueBloodedToffee

  —
  
  
  (1)

  DFC_Etna

  —
  dramonic
  
  (0)

  dramonic

  —
  
  
  (1)

  Flames682

  —
  McMenno
  
  (8)

  Jeanne11

  —
  Not_Mafia, Seiko x Naomi, BlueBloodedToffee, LucianRoy, DFC_Etna, lufan131, Metal Sonic, Tere
  (L-2)
  
  
  (2)

  LucianRoy

  —
  Vilewhirl, Mac
  
  (0)

  lufan131

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Mac

  —
  
  
  (0)

  McMenno

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Metal Sonic

  —
  
  
  (2)

  Not_Mafia

  —
  SleepyKrew, Wisdom
  
  (0)

  Seiko x Naomi

  —
  
  
  (1)

  SleepyKrew

  —
  Aeronaut
  
  (1)

  Tere

  —
  Flames682
  
  (0)

  Vilewhirl

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Wisdom

  —
  
  
  (0)

  zMuffinMan

  —
  
  
  
  (2)

  Not Voting

  —
  Jeanne11, zMuffinMan
  
  With
  18

  votes
  in play, it takes
  10

  to hammer
  .
  
  Deadline is in
  (expired on 2015-05-06 02:20:00)

  (Wed May 6 @ 02:20:00 EST)
  .
  
  
  Plurality is in effect:
  if no player has been hammered by the deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched (if there is a tie, the player who received the last new vote on their wagon first will be lynched).
  
  If deadline were to hit right now,
  Jeanne11
  would be lynched.
  
  
  
  
  zMuffinMan
  is V/LA until
  Tue Apr 21

  @ 02 EST
  .
  
  Flames682
  is V/LA until
  Wed Apr 22

  @ 23 EST
  .
  
  BlueBloodedToffee
  is V/LA until
  Thu Apr 23

  @ 12 EST
  .
  
  notscience (part of
  Seiko x Naomi
  ) is V/LA until
  Thu Apr 23

  @ 00 EST
  . (Hydra activity is still expected.)
  
  Awaiting prod responses from
  McMenno
  ,
  Aeronaut
  , and
  Jeanne11
  .
  
  

Now take a look at Wisdom's ISO

He hardly did anything at all to push that wagon up until the point where he voted him. There were a few posts where he mentioned Jeanne was probably newb-scum, but that's it. It was just passing mentions; he did fuck all to actually force it through.

When he *did* vote Jeanne (892), it was entirely in response to someone else's point and it was L-1. So, no, you didn't "force" a lurker lynch, you sat there while town ran around lynching a lurker until you found a compelling-looking point that you could sheep.

So, either you're misrep'ing info or you're not getting what our point here actually is.

Everyone who was in Pokemon should tell me what they think about this.

[Kuroko Network]

Funny you are still arguing this like its a big deal but didn't awnser my question.

I think stuff like this is a particularly annoying (and hazardous when he's wrong) element of Echo's play style. I don't agree with his scum read on you nor do I agree with the way he went about it, but I'm willing to talk if you want to ask me anything.

[Kuroko Network]

Oh man, now we drop logical fallacies like skrillex drops bass. You called WoF's vote naked. A naked vote is something with little to no reasoning. Something both WoF's and Wisdom's vote share. There's no misrepresentation to say you're saying one is fine but going nuts over the other for the same reason.

You say his vote is 'redressive', what is he trying to remedy? He has FOUR POSTS after he posts that. One is a confirm, one an RVS and one a catch-up post. How can you remedy what doesn't exist? The issue is, your push on wisdom is exactly the same reason you think WoF's vote is fine. Riddle me how the two are different enough to each warrant a scum and null read respectively.

I'm not Echo, but I'm about 104% sure you're misinterpreting what he was saying here.

There's a pretty fundamental difference in Wisdom's approach to the read on us vs. WOF's. What Wisdom did was put a vote on us (378) and then come up with a weak justification for it afterward (from 386). This is what Echo is taking issue with: he is saying that Wisdom saw suspicion on us, put a naked vote on us, then realized it'd probably look bad so he made up an awkward justification for it after the fact.

WOF's vote on us didn't have a reason directly attached to it, yes, but if you look at his progression (from 477), he was telegraphing which posts, specifically, he was taking issue with before he voted us. So it's distinctly different from what Wisdom did; he at least had reasoning behind it when he voted us, even if I think it's fairly ridiculous.

After that, I think most of your posts directed towards each other are just you two not understanding what each other are saying with respect to this specific point. I would like if you could reread the exchange with this in mind and tell me if you disagree with this.

Okay, but my brain is a little checked out so if I sound rambling you know why.

Can you tell me a bit more about Echo's play style as scum vs town?
Is he usually making a big deal about nothing typically or tend to push weak points?

I think Echo occasionally thinks he sees stuff that isn't actually there, and so tends to make a big deal over stuff when in reality it isn't one. I think he's similar to me in that he usually gets really excited when he thinks he's caught scum, and so he comes out full force attempting to dismantle/argue against every single thing about someone's posts (which is why I think he pushed you over "ignoring" PN's question). This often leads to him calling people scum for stuff that isn't scum motivated even if he *is* right about them being scum.

It also leads to him thinking what he's saying should be obvious from an outside POV and thus tripping over himself trying to explain it, which is a large part of what I think happened earlier.

[Kuroko Network]

Maybe it is the way it's formatted, maybe it's my crazy brain being detached when I start to read things, but how hard you attacked Fluff for that reason just seemed a bit over the top.
What is your read on the spot currently?

At that point I didn't have any scum reads. What FC did was the first thing that jumped out at me and the game was still mostly in the RVS/not-serious phase, so I pushed over it even if it wasn't a necessarily strong point.

I still think FC is likely scum. Wisdom is a much higher priority for me at this point, though.

This isn't how I'd like to have this exchange. I apologize for earlier aggression, but I'm just trying to figure out if this approach is something that you would do as town, or if this is just swag wars happening all over again. Right now, it feels like swag wars and I don't think it's because our methodologies of reading notsci are suddenly incredibly different, I think it's because you aren't genuinely attempting to read him. If you're town (or scum), this isn't the way to approach me that will help us reach an understanding where I will read you better.

I'm more than willing to talk if you have anything specific you want to ask me or work out, just I take huge issue with you (and people in general) criticizing the way I read people to the point of thinking I have to be scum for it, especially when we usually work together well in games. I also don't remotely understand why you think the way I'm reading notsci here is so ridiculous when I assume you'd know reading the arguments/pushes people are making is my way of counteracting any form of people manipulating their meta, and I still don't understand what it is you're finding town about notsci's "engagement" so far.

[Kuroko Network]

Wisdom,

1. Do you have any thoughts at all for who might be scum? (I'm assuming the vote on Muki is another sheep, correct me if I'm wrong.)

2. Do you have a town read on me? If so, why?

[Kuroko Network]

Dislike:
Muki
Aneninen

I don't necessarily disagree, but can you walk me through why you dislike Muki in more detail?

[Kuroko Network]

Fluff Central: You are not getting mislynched on my watch. From what I can tell, you pinged pie early game, is all.

[Kuroko Network]

As long as you don't continue townreading scum and scumreading town, I've got your back.

[Kuroko Network]

Okay. I've got your front.

[Kuroko Network]

townreading scum

what?

Hello Ms Fox. Pie and I have reached a consensus that Wisdom is scum. Usually, we're right.

[Kuroko Network]

No, just wrong.

[Kuroko Network]

It didn't seem like a joke, and I went back and reread after you claimed it a joke and it still doesn't read that way to me.

My bad. I missed the broken quote.

The question I asked was wholly irrelevant to the game, fluff, and referring to one of your Nacho jokes. It was meant to be a joke.

We all know that explaining jokes spoils the fun, so why don't we change the topic, and you ask me about my reads, or I ask you about yours: What are your thoughts on OT, Fluff, Luna and Muki at the moment?

[Kuroko Network]

In later posts you indicate that you know me and have played with me, but Nacho and I trolling each other or just poking at each other is pretty standard, so your posts in that feel weird in that regard.

I knew it was a troll, which was why I attempted to join in on the fun. I wouldn't be sounding so much like a creep if I wasn't on this alt, believe me. Stranger danger.

[Kuroko Network]

2. Do you have a town read on me? If so, why?

no. But pie's last posts are kinda okay and make me think I could just be annoyed with how you (echo) have chosen to push me. The fact I know who you are probably makes me biased too.

Pie posted that.

[Kuroko Network]

What kind of response were you expecting?

Some form of feedback in response to the stimuli. Pie posted the first vote with a substantial amount of words demonstrating a scumread on Fluff. I would have expected a confused, sad, or angry response. I did not expect no response.

I know, you'll only get back to me after the paint dries, but what to do?

[Kuroko Network]

Tammy made me pay her medical bills.

[Kuroko Network]

Only the best of town can drop as many nuggets of wisdom as he!

[Kuroko Network]

In all seriousness, PN's 307 rang town to me, translated as "I'm voting WoF for pressure.". I like it because it demonstrates a good use of his vote.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm sorely disappointed with the lack of commentary of Zelink's own posts. I was hoping for something fun when Zelink got to his own posts.

[Kuroko Network]

Yeah, when he quotes his own posts the entire page gets unreadable on mobile. The good news is, he's getting bored of the gimmick, as evidenced by less fluff text per quote. In fact, his walls on the previous page contain a lot more content. I read them.

[Kuroko Network]

Don't do that, please. It takes time for him to make these posts. Ten minutes to read, but an hour to write. Show some appreciation please.

[Kuroko Network]

I don't agree with the assessment that Muki's Wisdom vote was forced. You don't necessarily have to vote the person you comment the most on or your strongest scum read; you can use your vote for other reasons, ex. voting the most viable wagon on a scum read, drawing attention onto a specific person, and so forth. I think he pretty obviously voted Wisdom bc Wisdom had a wagon, whereas Monopoly Tycoons didn't.

If I scum read him, it'd be for other reasons. That said, I don't have a town read on him.

I'm seeing Anen reading a lot of people because "they look different from what I've seen before" with no further justification. The zelink read, in particular, comes to mind. If you actually read zelink's posts, there *are* actual reads/content in them if you look through it. What he's doing here is ignoring everything zelink is actually doing and instead calling him scum because he's playing differently, without trying to reason through what zelink has to gain as scum by doing it or any alternate explanations. Which is superficial as fuck and makes me think he's not actually attempting to form reads here. It looks more like he thought "he's playing differently" would be a safe angle to push in order to look like he's generating content, and so there it was.

I don't mind the way zelink is approaching the game, nor do I mind what he's actually done in terms of his reads/pushes. I'm working under the assumption that it's a temporary gimmick and that he'll drop it eventually.

AJ is town.

I want Nacho's opinion on Wisdom's "apathy" when he gets back.

[Kuroko Network]

Except Muki's justification fell flat when called out on it, yet he kept the vote there.

I'm assuming this is referring to 638? I'm looking through it again and even if Muki had cause to question the scum read on Wisdom as a result of that (which I don't think he did), I don't think this would be remotely a big deal.

It's as likely he just hasn't seen any strong reason to vote anyone else yet, so he hasn't bothered. Do you disagree?

[Kuroko Network]

The problem is he continued stating he has a scumread on me despite the fact it was explained to him he misinterpreted the me-idiocy exchange. It's like he didn't care at all to explore the motivations behind it in the first place.

I don't think he was misinterpreting anything. I think he still thinks Idiocy wanted you to explain the Tammy town read and that you dodged it, just he thinks they asked it awkwardly.

I don't remember you actually explaining it anywhere after that, either, so I can see why he'd maintain the scum read on you.

[Kuroko Network]

Then have you explained the town read on Tammy anywhere?

Because if you still haven't, I think his angle is a reasonable angle to push even after he was told he was misinterpreting Idiocy's question.

[Kuroko Network]

And if he wanted it explained, he could ask. He didn't.

"Dodging the question" would imply "I want you to answer this question". Do you disagree?

[Kuroko Network]

Except he explicitly stated in 638 that he was taking issue with the fact that you haven't explained the town read on Tammy.

Muki: "Wisdom was using strawman arguments to dodge giving an explanation for the Tammy read."
You: "They weren't asking me to explain it, they asked why I would state one."
Muki: "That's fair, but either way, I take issue with the fact you didn't explain it."
You: *still doesn't explain it*

What about this progression doesn't make sense?

[Kuroko Network]

Can you explain, Pie, why?

I'm pretty sure I've been fairly transparent about why I'm reading him the way I am? 552, 872, and 878 are the crux of it; I don't like how passive he was early game, and I think that, if he wanted to sort us, he would have put a lot more effort into directing pointed questions to us, asking other people about their reads on us, or doing anything to actually read us than ... what he did (nothing). It read more like he was attempting to fabricate a vote on us while hoping no one would realize his reason for voting us didn't hold water, as opposed to someone legitimately attempting to place a pressure vote on me and gauge my reaction to it.

At the moment I'm trying to figure out if his excuse of "apathy" would explain his behavior in this game, and if it would, whether this would be likely to be coming from him as town.

What I don't like is Kuroko treating Tammy like town while at the same time saying he isn't sure about her alignment all while ignoring her question about how Fluff was discrediting anyone.

You're aware it should have been obvious I was referring to FC, right?

[Kuroko Network]

Fluff Central (who I voted in the same post she quoted causing her to ask that question).

[Kuroko Network]

i just quoted said post and it does not say what you say it says. He said he misunderstood, not that he takes issue with anything.

That is the implication of what he said, yes.

You're pushing that he's attempting to BS a scum read on you for whatever reason, and that his reasoning for scum reading you initially was addressed. This is an assumption *you're* making. The obvious conclusion is not this, it's that he's still scum reading you *because* his initial reasoning for scum reading you wasn't addressed, and that you're wrong in claiming that it was addressed.

I think this should be cleared up if you just go ahead and explain the read on Tammy, rather than sitting here arguing with me over what he meant.

he nowhere said this either.

Why are you defending someone you're not even townreading?

If I disagree with an argument, then I am going to point it out, even if I'm not town reading that player. I'm not going to support an argument on someone I'm not scum reading that I don't think holds water, and I don't know why you'd disagree.

Zelink basically described it when talking about Tammy's push on me earlier. Even if Muki is scum here, I would be looking at it as a "caught for the wrong reasons" sort of thing, rather than this being something he'd be more likely to do as scum than town; i.e. if he is scum here, he likely just made that series of posts bc he thought he would as town, rather than having anything to gain from it.

[Kuroko Network]

Lmfao. No words.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm slowly losing my townread on Kuroko, how much more obvious can it get about what Muki's doing, this defense to pursue wisdom is ridiculous.

Like, you have got to be fucking kidding me.

I am more than open to consideration if I see an argument that I think holds water. But I think there's just as likely town motivation for the way Muki approached this as there is scum motivation, and I've yet to hear any argument that adequately explains why he wouldn't have done it as town.

What you're essentially saying here is that you're right and that I'm scum because you think the way I'm disagreeing with you makes no sense, which continues to be an absolutely awful approach. I suppose I could just be flat-out wrong (it wouldn't be the first time it's happened), but fucking really?

I would expect this coming from Wisdom regardless of what his alignment is, but I would expect you to know better.

[Kuroko Network]

I do.
He's clearly reading the thread if you saw his response to me.

Also, I don't think keeping up with the thread necessitates having a vote on someone. There have been times where I've gone half of D1 without having a good reason to move my vote (in that case this happened after I had a strong scum read, figured they were probably town, and didn't have any strong scum reads for a while afterward).

Unless I'm misinterpreting your point?

[Kuroko Network]

I'm slowly losing my townread on Kuroko, how much more obvious can it get about what Muki's doing, this defense to pursue wisdom is ridiculous.

And I'm not even pursuing Wisdom because of this (although I don't have any degree of town read on him). I could easily enough see the push on Muki coming from him as either alignment. Just in this case it's a dumb reason to scum read someone, so I don't support it.

[Kuroko Network]

Kagami, what do you make of Wisdom claiming he was "apathetic" earlier?

[Kuroko Network]

(I.e. do you think it's something that is particularly likely to come from him as town and/or something he wouldn't do as scum?)

[Kuroko Network]

I don't really think much of it. I don't see any special scum motivation to it unless you think he's planning to lurk.

I'm considering that it might be a valid explanation for why I took issue with his early play if it's true. The problem is, I have no idea what Wisdom would be likely to do if he *was* apathetic in a game, as well as whether being apathetic is something he'd even do as town.

I don't see why him being apathetic would preclude him attempting to take a stance on me either way (which he still didn't do), but I worry that at that point I'm being biased with what I'd expect him to do, so I was hoping for a second opinion on it.

Luna's 1097 is reasonable. I'm not really sure why you're defending Muki; I'd much rather hear him defend himself.

I can understand that; what I take issue with is people claiming it's scummy that I'm viewing the situation re: Muki differently from them, entirely because it's "that obvious". (If someone questioned something specific about my argument, I'd be 100% fine with it and I'd like to hear it, but Luna claimed it was bad entirely because the conclusion was different.)

I usually don't care as much about waiting for someone to defend themselves first in a situation where there's a significant amount of pressure on them and the situation could potentially become significantly worse if I waited to defend them. I can wait if you'd prefer it, though.

feck

[Kuroko Network]

I'm pretty sure i said that the fact that you were defending Muki to pursue Wisdom was my issue with it.
I only added that it was obvious to me why Muki's scummy, i just don't see why you're defending Muki in a way to help push against Wisdom.

Ugh, sorry.

As I said, I don't think Wisdom is scum for the Muki push, I just think his (and your) reasoning is entirely wrong.

[Kuroko Network]

Thing is you're using Muki's (wrong) points about Wisdom to add more fuel to the Wisdom push, in addition to keep defending him. I never said anything about Wisdom's Muki push.

That isn't what my intention is; I don't think Wisdom is scum for not elaborating on the Tammy read, either (although I don't think it's an unreasonable angle for someone to believe).

[Kuroko Network]

I do not condone a policy lynch on a player because he is putting in effort. This is all I would like to say about my stance on the matter. Pie may have differing opinions, however.

[Kuroko Network]

What I don't like is Kuroko treating Tammy like town while at the same time saying he isn't sure about her alignment all while ignoring her question about how Fluff was discrediting anyone.

VOTE: Kuroko

Comfortable vote.

P-EDIT: As one who can't stand the posting style of ZeLink, I would be more than happy to help clean up the thread with a policy there.

Hello Prohawk, welcome to the game. I see you have decided to catch my attention with this nice little vote here. I'd like to clarify that the question about how Fluff was discrediting anyone was directed to my other head, which had been replied to if you had read further in the thread. Your conclusion is wrong because the scenario you have presented is not appropriate for this specific context of the game. It is specifically beneficial to treat Tammy like town unless there is reason to do so otherwise, because there are certain caveats that can be detrimental to the bigger picture of the gamestate if, as Tammy has pointed out, one "attacks" or "demeans" her in a manner that makes her feel uncomfortable. As evidenced by an innocent comment sparking a moderately large ruckus that was only mitigated by Oil Tycoon's placating, my refusal to encourage the action, and a good night's rest. Furthermore, it is simply good manners to treat fellow players as "innocent unless proven guilty" in order to promote the sharing of ideas and cooperation which is vital for eliminating the game of actual scum. Next, I stated a town lean on Tammy, so "isn't sure about her alignment all" is incorrect.

Your reasoning is valid however, and that is a good sign. The implication that one is treating another like town almost as if they have inside knowledge of that player's alignment is certainly something to be suspicious of. However, your premises are wrong in this case and the scenario you have presented is not reflective of the game given its surrounding context.

Good effort though, for someone who has not fully read the game. You are now a townread.

[Kuroko Network]

I would like to know who Kuroko thinks is scum other than Wisdom, because this is getting like a broken record.

AJ and Idiocy are my other scumreads.

Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

Tammy, I'm not really sure how to respond to your #1123. Most of it seems like you are musing to yourself, or to put in a more succinct term, "waffling". Have a question for me?

[Kuroko Network]

Yeah your other head is townreading me. I'd prefer you get with the program.

Heil Hitler too.

[Kuroko Network]

1134 looks like a long winded explanation for something so simple.

His vote is one of the only two that made sense on my slot in the game so far. Since it was directed to me, I decided to reward him with a full explanation.

[Kuroko Network]

What I don't like is Kuroko treating Tammy like town while at the same time saying he isn't sure about her alignment all while ignoring her question about how Fluff was discrediting anyone.

VOTE: Kuroko

Comfortable vote.

P-EDIT: As one who can't stand the posting style of ZeLink, I would be more than happy to help clean up the thread with a policy there.

Hello Prohawk, welcome to the game. I see you have decided to catch my attention with this nice little vote here. I'd like to clarify that the question about how Fluff was discrediting anyone was directed to my other head, which had been replied to if you had read further in the thread. Your conclusion is wrong because the scenario you have presented is not appropriate for this specific context of the game. It is specifically beneficial to treat Tammy like town unless there is reason to do so otherwise, because there are certain caveats that can be detrimental to the bigger picture of the gamestate if, as Tammy has pointed out, one "attacks" or "demeans" her in a manner that makes her feel uncomfortable. As evidenced by an innocent comment sparking a moderately large ruckus that was only mitigated by Oil Tycoon's placating, my refusal to encourage the action, and a good night's rest. Furthermore, it is simply good manners to treat fellow players as "innocent unless proven guilty" in order to promote the sharing of ideas and cooperation which is vital for eliminating the game of actual scum. Next, I stated a town lean on Tammy, so "isn't sure about her alignment all" is incorrect.

Your reasoning is valid however, and that is a good sign. The implication that one is treating another like town almost as if they have inside knowledge of that player's alignment is certainly something to be suspicious of. However, your premises are wrong in this case and the scenario you have presented is not reflective of the game given its surrounding context.

Good effort though, for someone who has not fully read the game. You are now a townread.

More buddying of Nacho!

And considering that Prohawk!scum has both written a pretty good case about how deceitful I am when I was town and tried to get me lynched AND has also as scum called me town to get me on his side, I can safely say that Prohawk has a decent understanding of me and how he as scum can interact with me.

This just so you know completely betrays your "oh I'm an alt and I knew you were joking/trolling with each other and I wouldn't have come across as such a creep if I were on my main...yada yada yada"

Was there a question in there? I don't see a question in there.

I don't know Prohawk!scum. I know you!town and you!scum. Would you like to educate me about Prohawk!scum?

[Kuroko Network]

Mod, the Echo Echo head of this hydra will have Limited Access until 1 October.

I will be loosely following the game however and answer any questions directed to me. Please make them obvious so that I can see them better.

Pie will take control of most of this hydra during this period of time.

[Kuroko Network]

Ignoring my questions. Rude.

[Kuroko Network]

This is literally more than the fifth time I have tried to reach out to you, Tammy.

[Kuroko Network]

I'm deciding on whether or not I want to join you on kuroko. like I have definite issues, and echo is claiming to know town me and scum me but clearly has absolutely no idea how to interact with me or talk to me which suggest that either they don't know anything about me or they're trying to figure out how to interact with me and failing at it which might suggest unnatural scum? IDK.

I have to keep with the alt gimmick, goddamnit.

[Kuroko Network]

You continually ignoring me because my name seems unfamiliar to you is actually your fault.

[Kuroko Network]

Whatever, go talk to pie. Everyone loves pie.

[Kuroko Network]

Wish granted.

[Kuroko Network]

Pie has been super aggro for no apparent reason and I dislike it when people ignore my attempts to reach out to them.

Syr, get Nacho on the line ASAP. I also don't recall ignoring any of your reach outs?

Luna, give me a sec to get to your question.

[Kuroko Network]

I would like to know who Kuroko thinks is scum other than Wisdom, because this is getting like a broken record.

Anen, Wheel of Fortune, maybe FC, maybe hawk.

After seeing ika's recent post I also think ika could be scum. He's not doing anything and his level of engagement thus far has been far lower than it usually is when he's town. I agree with Klingon that it'd be nice to hear why Brantz is scum.

Ask me if you wanna talk about anything more specifically.

[Kuroko Network]

Tammy, I wasn't arguing (or at least I wasn't trying to argue) over what a push is.

I assumed Wisdom had a scum read on me because he voted me. I claimed he would have been pushing me harder than he was here (bc he wasn't; that was the point) if he was town and legitimately scum read me. He's the one who went "lolol for a push to be weak it has to be a push first".

In retrospect, I can see how it'd come off that way, but I was initially criticizing the fact he'd vote us when he wasn't scum reading us, not attempting to nitpick on what a "push" is. If it came off like I was, that wasn't my intention.

[Kuroko Network]

What's your read on OT?

I like Syr's posts on a surface level, even though the read on me is horribly, horribly wrong.

My overall read at this point, however, will be pretty much deterministically influenced by what Nacho does when he comes back into the game. The way he goes about this will, in all likelihood, be far more telling than anything they've done up to this point. (This isn't to say that him scum reading me would automatically make him scum, but if he pushes me and I have *ANY* reason to believe he's being disingenuous about it, I will turn the thread red and you will lynch the fuck out of him tomorrow after I flip town.)

[Kuroko Network]

I reached out, you asked if I was Nacho, then proceeded to ignore me.

I thought I responded to this after you clarified it was you?

[Kuroko Network]

Tammy, you saw how adamant I was in swag that pie misreading me=pie scum. I'm really rather bothered that she hasn't caught on that I'm town yet.

I would sure as hell be capable of town reading you and buddying the fuck out of you if I was scum.

What does scum-me have to gain by doing this? Like, call it self-meta or whatever the fuck you want, but seriously.

[Kuroko Network]

I reached out, you asked if I was Nacho, then proceeded to ignore me.

I thought I responded to this after you clarified it was you?

I'm looking through this again and I see it.

I don't really have anything to justify it. There was a lot of shit going on and I have a tendency to let stuff drop by the wayside unless people have specific questions for me.

[Kuroko Network]

The posting ratio between us is 60/40 Me/Nacho. Ish.

Your posting has been considerably more town over the course of the game than Nacho's, who I would expect would be able to fake most of what he's done if he tried hard enough. I haven't minded Nacho's posts either, FWIW.

[Kuroko Network]

It's almost like I brought up that's what she's done as scum recently and could indicate she wants to try and mislynch me for the first time ever or that it's something she's done both times she's been scum against me recently!

Notsci.

Don't you imagine that, after 2 games recently where I pushed you and me happening to turn up scum both times, I'd be fucking aware that it's what you'd be expecting from me as scum? Like, I'm fully aware that it's self-meta and I'm not saying it makes me town (which would be incorrectly reasoned and obviously so), but it was a huge point of contention in both games.

And I'm going to be blunt. If you think that I'd push someone entirely because I want to mislynch them and because I didn't get it hte last time, then you don't have any understanding whatsoever of how I play scum or how I choose who to push when I'm scum. People like Nacho might do that, but I'm nowhere near that good at scum (Empire game was an anomaly where you town read me for "genuine emotion" without realizing genuine != town) nor do I have any faith in my ability to pull pushes out of thin air like that.

Stuff like this, tbh, is part of why I'm still questioning your alignment here. Because I look at this and can't help but think you're just attempting to draw a parallel based entirely on stuff that's similar on a superficial level without questioning what I actually had to gain as scum both times I pushed you (getting town read by pushing an unpopular target in Bins game, pushing you bc your play _was_ off and then it transitioning to you being what I thought was a necessary mislynch in Empire game, ... ??? ... here).

I have no idea what I can even do to convince you I'm town if you're town here. This might as well be a reach out, I guess, but I have no idea what you're even looking for from me here.

[Kuroko Network]

I would like to ask that if you all actually push this wagon through to at least wait until everyone has been engaged with the game and has an adequate amount of content for me to judge so I can at least get a well-formed set of reads out there before it happens.

Because as it is I don't have any compelling scum reads. I have some vague thoughts for who might be scum, but that's it. I can't fucking evaluate shit when at least half the players haven't *really* got into the game yet and when at least half of the people on my wagon are mostly just sheeping and haven't taken a firm stance.

[Kuroko Network]

What the hell happened to your Wisdom, Aj and Idiocy scumreads?

AJ and Idiocy were Echo's scum reads. This is pie speaking and I don't agree with either (AJ looks p town to me and, while I don't have strong feelings Idiocy is town, I haven't found their posts scummy).

Echo is V/LA and we didn't have much of a chance to sync before he left, so it's going to be me driving for the rest of this game day.

As for the Wisdom read, I still think he could be scum but I'm not sure whether his explanation of "apathy" is a compelling explanation for why he played this the way he did and I wanted to talk about it with Nacho the next chance we got bc Nacho has a lot of experience with him and didn't find his entrance scummy (both of these I've said in thread already).

Did you have anything from earlier you wanted to talk about? I'm aware you seem dead set I'm scum at this point (your reasoning for it is part of why I want to talk with Nacho ASAP bc mass aggression is a huge null tell for me and you're railroading me on reads when the game has basically just started and Nacho is aware of what I can do given enough time to get into the game), but if you have anything you want to talk about let me know.

[Kuroko Network]

I know I would be fully aware, but then it comes down to "Do I think town-you would be so caught up in the stiff early game that you'd ignore me being town after" that I'm getting hung up on. Yes, I know you're fully aware of your meta and you would know how much that gets/got under my skin when you did it, but from my perspective, I see you misreading me when I know you should be able to read me right. So, how am I supposed to feel?

And who knows! I'm not pretending to be an expert on the intricacies of your game, but you know as well as I do that, as town, I know you should be reading me right, and when I come in and see you not reading me right it should make sense why Im wary o you.

And I did get that hangup here, because I knew that in this playerlist, you weren't liable to get me lynched before Mala can come in and townread me and I townflail hard enough to skyrocket myself to the top of people's town lists. But, this could just be a non-popular target ploy. I understand early on I was, but I think a lot of people in this game find me really easy to read, especially with Nacho liable to push me early so I don't worm my way through day after day, which means a continued push on me *will* be an unpopular push. I'm not really pushing this angle, but I think you're giving me way too little credit when I get weirded out when your'e scumreading me.

And I'm not even saying that if you're townreading me everything would be kosher.

I don't see what about your posting so far has been town. In the absence of any sort of exceedingly town post that I know you wouldn't be able to fake, I read you based on the pushes you're making, whether you're seeing what I'd be expecting you to see reads-wise, and whether I have reason to think any of your pushes are disingenuous, which is the same way I read the vast majority of players in most games (no, I don't read you based on tone or engagement anymore bc that's a lot more subjective and I have more faith in my ability to read you and most other people logically).

In those terms, I haven't liked what I've seen, but most of what I've seen has been relatively minor, so I don't feel remotely strongly about it and it's not something I'd attempt to launch a push over if I was in any position where I was capable of doing so. I haven't yet seen anything that gives me strong reason to think you're town. Usually, when we've played recently, I see it, but it takes me a while to see it and feel relatively safe about it.

[Kuroko Network]

Unvote

This is ridiculous.
Apparently when someone yells loud enough that someone is scum everyone comes to sheep.
Yet someone yelling that a person is town goes ignored.

What is your read on Anen?

Outside of Wisdom, who I worry won't get much of anywhere past where he's at now, he's the only person I feel relatively optimistic about at this point that has a chance to be a viable wagon.

Well, there was a decent push on me early. Did you get anything out of that?

I found myself agreeing with most of what Nacho (and more recently, zelink) was saying about you. I didn't like your early play; it didn't read to me like you were actually trying to do anything to game solve, and I thought the way you were approaching the Kagami read was shallow and not up to par in terms of what I was expecting you to see there. I thought Nacho was incorrect to back off because of "engagement" and still don't know what he was referring to there.

[Kuroko Network]

Graphically put:
<image>

Either you aren't reading my posts in enough depth or you're getting confused as to whose read is what.

I had a relatively strong scum read on Wisdom after his entrance. This got compounded after what I perceived as him making shit up to get people to think the way he was playing in this game wouldn't have been likely to come from him as scum (what he was saying about Pokemon II). After it became clear he just wasn't giving a shit about the game and made some posts that looked relatively passable, the scum read weakened substantially and is where it's at now (more likely scum, currently seeking a second opinion about whether Wisdom's "apathy" here is believable, but not a strong scum read like it was before).

Echo, afaict, has had a strong scum read on Wisdom the whole time and maintained it throughout. And we never got much of a chance to talk about Wisdom being apathetic, or much of anything in general, so I can't tell you what his stance there is.

@ kuroko
Also, I rather find having no tangible scumreads after 1200 posts to be total bullshit. Unless you think everyone that's been posting so far is town?

I have tangible scum reads, which I just listed off after Luna asked me about them. There's a significant difference between having scum reads and having scum reads that I feel particularly confident will flip scum.

I have no idea what your point here is.

[Kuroko Network]

Still on dislike pile.

vote: Anen

[Kuroko Network]

I'm going to bed.

If anyone has any questions for me, leave it and I'll respond when I get back from class tomorrow.

[Kuroko Network]

MOTHERF**KER

[Kuroko Network]

THE SECRET IS OUT

[Kuroko Network]

Your image is forever tainted.

[Kuroko Network]

Also, when you say Tammy hasn't 'obvtowned' yet, do you mean you don't have a town read on her, you have a scum read on her or you think she looks town but not 'obvtown'?

She looks town but not 'obvtown'.

[Kuroko Network]

Why did you ask about this list of players in particular?

Someone else asked the same question and it was answered later.

[Kuroko Network]

What am I meant to see here?

Wisdom in his underwear proceeding to molest every female player in the game.

[Kuroko Network]

Describe what you think his bad guy meta is.

Someone else asked this question and it was answered later.

[Kuroko Network]

But this felt somewhat townish because it's kinda rare to find cheeky scum who taunt and sound confident in mislynching someone.

not if you knew who echo is

Echo Echo.

[Kuroko Network]

Like how can anyone even think that's scum ^

I'll use a term our mod coined a few years ago. "Trajectory". It generally means looking at how a person reads another person over time. In this case, it's kuroko's read of wisdom.

Graphically put:


@ kuroko
Also, I rather find having no tangible scumreads after 1200 posts to be total bullshit. Unless you think everyone that's been posting so far is town?

Pie has already addressed this, but I'd like to leave a response to this as well.

Your graph, to put it politely, is incorrect.

[Kuroko Network]

I felt like I was going through the motions early. So yes, a lot of my early stuff was shallow. I can go into why but it's not really related to this game, it was me wound up from other reasons.

Since then, I've been trying to get a bearing on the game. I have been waiting patiently for Mala to get here as she's someone I'm looking to bounce things off. It doesn't help that a lot of my stances this game are hard to put into words why I feel this way and how mixed up I've been as a general rule.

This makes sense.

Where are your reads at rn?

Despite it being shallow, I did point to advance wars having a lyncher.

I wasn't aware of this (and I must have missed it if you posted it in the game thread), but this is correct, and you pushing a lyncher in this game makes a hell of a lot more sense now that I know about this.

[Kuroko Network]

This is a terrible reaction.

Also am more interested in him discussing wall of fire.

Hint: His opinion is that every post we make is bad because that is what he decided to think on page one

I thought this was similarly terrible.

[Kuroko Network]

NACHO

When you get to it, I'd like to hear if you think Wisdom's excuse of "apathy" is believable.

[Kuroko Network]

You know what? I do think there's Scum between them and Tammy.

VOTE: Kuroko Network

What is the reasoning behind this (as in why are me/Tammy linked)? I'm not sure why you'd claim there's scum specifically between us two.

[Kuroko Network]

O also, I was pretty sure that zelink was zmuffin too and this is part of why I didn't take any issue with his suspicion of Tammy in the first place. I know zmuffin tends to have a lot of trouble reading Tammy and the arguments he was pushing felt fairly par for the course for him in that he struggles to read her tone and even if he does he doesn't find her tone a compelling reason to think she's town to begin with, and she tends to approach the game that he can't read as well and tends to question logically.

That said, sometime when I'm not at a school library I'll go back and reread his Tammy push just to be sure it's not coming from a "this should be expected of me" POV. I don't know why he'd think pushing her would be expected of him given he was on an alt, though.

[Kuroko Network]

Luna, I notice that your vote is not on Aneninenen. Care to join me? ~

[Kuroko Network]

573
1072

I'm not even the only one who's posted reasoning for him being scum. (See: AJ and Zelink, both of whom have made points I've found compelling).

[Kuroko Network]

The uPick talk bothers me because you're acting like there's an established uPick meta that notscience is intentionally ignoring or something; it could just be something I've failed to pick up for a while, but I don't think "no third parties in uPicks" is a common maxim and no one else scoffing at that lyncher spec means that either that's something that just sort of existed in your brain where it shouldn't have or no one's reading our posts, which is completely possible.

Every single upick game I've seen has just been town vs. mafia and notsci/I have been in a bunch of upicks (TH upick 1, TH upick 2, TH upick 3, Pokemon upick). I would further expect this to be the case if the mod publicly announces alignment is independent of flavor (since it makes no sense for one random role to be a lyncher on another random role).

FWIW, I think I was on the wrong track with regard to this point and if I had seen Nati's game I would never have taken issue with it in the first place.

[Kuroko Network]

You saw notscience disagreeing with townreads on a player because he didn't think outing setup information early was scummy because he was trying to discredit townreads on Kami; you thought town-him would have provided more depth in disagreeing with that early read, and referenced a bunch of games that Kagami has played in the past to point out subtle differences in her play here compared to elsewhere. First, I don't think that notscience would be threatened by an early townread on Kami early game to the point where he would go out of his way to discredit it; that was a read made very early in the game and there are still plenty of options for scum-notscience to push if he needs to.

It wasn't based around differences in Kagami's play, it was based around how I'd expect someone to out role info as scum in general. (The baseline I was using was actually what notsci himself did in Disney game, where he made up a bunch of stuff a lot of which incriminated spicer but none of which cleared anyone.) Unless you're talking about something else?

"discrediting a town read" has motivation besides keeping a mislynch target open; I was reading it as him just attempting to fake content. And you also have to keep in mind that, if correct, Kagami would have cleared 2 more people as town. So I would expect scum in that position to put at least some effort into discrediting her and/or arguing against the role info in some way, especially if she was right about it.

You're matching him up to an unreasonable standard and making assumptions that really don't make sense to me.
For one, the expectation that any comment he has about an early game townread is going to be in-depth as opposed to a knee-jerk response; not everything we post is going to be perfectly thought out and god's gift to mafia; this is especially true early game.

I don't really agree with this. I usually work under the assumption that people should judge every post objectively, even if any given post is only slightly more likely to be coming from scum over town. Plus, I think scum are a lot more prone to making off pushes or having off reads early in the game, even if it's only slightly "off". I find this is a better standard in terms of getting early reads than anything else I've tried so far (it's true that not everyone does this and people do tend to kneejerk react to stuff but it gives a lot less false positives for me than attempting to read people based on tone, awkwardness, etc.).

I don't think it's an obvious line of thought (to the point where every town should have it) to think "oh man clearing two people is so unreasonable for scum!", but I do think that people tend to erroneously clear players for role stuff early and notscience pushing back against that early makes sense.

I think trying to clear people early game as scum is inconvenient at best; this is two people who you probably wouldn't be able to push for a majority of the game, who would have a nonzero chance of otherwise being essentially free mislynches at best if they wind up being VIs. And I don't think it's the kind of thing that you can easily retract most of the time without looking like obvious scum. At best you'd need a compelling reason to back off of it if you wanted to push either of them as scum.

I'm aware this is Kagami I'm talking about here, and that if anyone would come up with some sort of fake setup theory with a contingency plan to get out of it that it'd probably be her. But this was part of my issue with the way he approached it. It didn't look like he was even taking it into consideration at all. Rather than saying "Kagami might be capable of faking it", he was acting like some generic scum player would claim role info in that way. Which I don't think makes sense for the reasons stated above and read like he wasn't actually trying to form a read there and was instead just going through the motions - as if he thought that "scum can claim role info" would be a good angle to push to look like he was doing something and so there it was.

In hindsight, I can see why most people wouldn't think as much about it or hold a different opinion to me on this issue. I'm a lot less worried about him in general that I know that he was checked out and distracted with other shit early game.

[Kuroko Network]

this doesn't answer what I asked. Are you saying he doesn't do what you described as town?

I'm saying that I don't give a shit. I'm not going to go looking through his meta when there's no real need to and it likely wouldn't lead anywhere.

It would be a lot easier if, if he does tend to play this way as town, that you point out what the similarities are yourself. I don't really care to bother convincing you at this point when you're probably going to claim that it is the same thing and that I just missed what you're getting at. Show me why I'm wrong.

[Kuroko Network]

vote: Wisdom

[Kuroko Network]

He's apathetic and being pushed to produce a push to shake some townreads, and the best he can come up with is this? It seems far more likely to come from scum than town-Wisdom, but maybe I'm wrong on this? Why?

I agree with your assessment; I was thinking that he might just be that stubborn over it for no apparent reason. >.>

[Kuroko Network]

hawk, what is your read on Wisdom and do you make anything of Nacho's reasoning for scum reading him?

Klingon, no response to this?

You know what? I do think there's Scum between them and Tammy.

VOTE: Kuroko Network

What is the reasoning behind this (as in why are me/Tammy linked)? I'm not sure why you'd claim there's scum specifically between us two.

[Kuroko Network]

That's obviously not mastin.

Echo.