Greater Idea Mafia (Endgame)

[T S O]

I'm here.

[T S O]

Has Elvis provided some reasoning for the discard? Because that's a speedlynch if they haven't.

[T S O]

Yeah, Delenn is also scum. Cool.

[T S O]

VOTE: Delenn

[T S O]

Elvis might be scum. Delenn most definitely is scum.

[T S O]

I received ika's message about the game less than 5 minutes ago, so not really.

Who are you voting again?

[T S O]

Delightful.

[T S O]

Is there a reason that Delenn hasn't been lynched yet? Because the logic that makes them scum isn't particularly difficult to understand, and I'd like to hope it isn't because town just suck.

[T S O]

I'm purely calling Delenn scum for the throwout of Bulletproof Townie, I haven't actually read the game. If their play is also scummy - sweet.

[T S O]

This is why I shouldn't say I'm going to do something specific in MS....something always comes up.

I'll get to this game soon as I can. Be forewarned though, it's not gonna be very flashy or awe-inspiring as it's D1 in a large ass game. As long as my Mollie (and partner I guess) aren't lynched today, I don't really care who is lynched. If we get Ank/d3x outa the picture so I don't waste my time trying to figure them out, I'm very much okay with that.

(Slightly) more to come.

hiiiiiiii kthnx

I am not getting a good read on d3x and I am pretty sure some1 has hacked ank's account.

delenn is scum cos no way does it make sense that she wld discard a bp while thinking she might be a nk. mala, mara and I all agree that she choose a scum role over that and they have done nothing to convince us otherwise.

Titus wouldnt pick a Scum role when she knows that Klingon is mislynch bait.

This is poor reasoning, Titus wouldn't care. Her ego would supersede her potential worries about Klingon.

[T S O]

Klingon is not particularly insecure, Titus thinks the world of herself as scum. Klingon also considers Titus to be good as scum. And Titus prefers to play scum. Balanced against all of this, you think Klingon's potential worries about being scum (when Titus could just coach her anyway?) would tip them to choose a Town role? No.

Vote Delenn.

[T S O]

This is an extremely black-and-white issue. If Titus threw out BP town, the role she favoured over it was not town.

[T S O]

This is going to be one of those games where there are a few voices of insanity, a lot of headless town, and scum. Getting a scum lynch will be difficult due to people constantly going off on incorrect tangents. Meanwhile, scum shoot the good players, and clean up late-game.

If you don't want this to happen, please just sheep me now instead of later.

[T S O]

Klingon would not go to titus and ask her how to play as scum when they both can do scum fine. Its their townplay. Klingon is easy to lynch as town and probably went to her for advice.

P-Edit: Mollie, see above. I have more to say about it, but I cant because "reasons"

So, what you're saying is, Klingon would be more worried as town than as scum? So she's more likely to pick scum than town, then?

What you're trying to say really isn't clear here and I feel like trying to debate it is a waste of time.

[T S O]

Klingon is not particularly insecure, Titus thinks the world of herself as scum. Klingon also considers Titus to be good as scum. And Titus prefers to play scum. Balanced against all of this, you think Klingon's potential worries about being scum (when Titus could just coach her anyway?) would tip them to choose a Town role? No.

Vote Delenn.

Delenn could easily choose a town role over BP.
I would choose multiple roles (tracker, joat, vig, rolecop, cop, coat) over BP.
I honestly don't see why Titus couldn't although this could be me being blind

No. Aside from it being statistically more likely for a scum role, rather than a powerful town role like those, to appear - Titus, as town, would prioritise survival over the potential to get a Guilty. She would fully believe that she has the capacity to single-handedly win the game for town if she can stay alive long enough. She would also fully expect to die n1 or n2.

You have to understand that Titus' strong impression of her own competency would almost certainly lead her to prioritise survival over getting a Guilty and being shot the next night. Getting a Guilty removes one scum player before she dies. She would back herself to remove at least three as Bulletproof, as well as soak at least one NK.

[T S O]

This is going to be one of those games where there are a few voices of insanity, a lot of headless town, and scum. Getting a scum lynch will be difficult due to people constantly going off on incorrect tangents. Meanwhile, scum shoot the good players, and clean up late-game.

If you don't want this to happen, please just sheep me now instead of later.

As a general rule, calling people bad will make them not want to sheep you.

In my experience, when people realise I'm right, they'll generally prefer to lynch scum rather than randomly spite me.

[T S O]

VOTE: delenn

huehuehueheuhas;lkhds;lkaoiwe;ha84hadf

Meh, nobody else has really given a case that has logic other than "vote lizard."
VOTE: Delenn

Excellent stuff.

[T S O]

Ok lets figure this:

Titus, who is mislynch bait vs many players who love lynching her D1, discards town to be scum knowing shes fucked D1.

Ok

I'm not going to waste my time pointing out when you make blatantly incorrect posts like these, and I don't see anyone else who plans to do that either.

[T S O]

It would be nice if you actually looked at my games before you threw mud at me, Greninja - as far as I know, I haven't mislynched Titus d1 in at least two years. Even if I had, it would be completely irrelevant to the case I'm making for Delenn-scum.

Do you actually believe the horrible arguments you're making, or is there an ulterior motive to this defence? Because it's beginning to strongly feel like it.

[T S O]

Sala: "People like TSO always mislynch Titus d1!"
TSO: "That hasn't happened in at least two years, and probably longer."
Sala: "...People like TSO always mislynch Titus d1!"

Sigh.

[T S O]

Shiro is probably scum, extremely forced reaction which stands out badly. Delenn remains scum.

[T S O]

At least four people are outright lurking, ika, you need to enforce a prod system.

[T S O]

So you got BP AND Unlynchable?

Dang, thats perfect.

A little too perfect....

Idk how I feel about it.

Could be a Saulus/Judas claim.

Posts like this sum up where you are at this game - a mixture of misinterpretation and stupidity.

Mollie and TSO are so fucking shallow.

We're one shot unlynchable townie.

Don't have time to defend against the vague assertions that we're scum because it's what we'd prefer. I feel a mentor mentee relationship with Klingon. We picked the roles together. I've been doing about jackshit due to IRL. I don't deny it. Given we're mislynched a lot, picking unlynchable is a hell of a lot better than BP.

Titus

except you thought you wld be nked.

sorry, but I don't believe you.

Titus, the Sala head is willing to die for you now.

I feel like you are taking this stand because you want to be correct in the face of me and mollie being incorrect. Unfortunately, it's not going to work, because you're wrong. If you want to try to toss the game, go for it, but in the event Frogger feels like playing, I'd ask him to seriously reconsider the slot's Delenn stance.

delenn is pretty much mislynch bait.

Nobody else want to acknowledge that?

Also anyone want to notice how Level 1-1 opportunistic seems? Jumping wagons pretty easily.

UNVOTE:

No.

I'll just sheep my townread for now

Vote: firebringer

This is a poor vote and makes me feel less certain of you as town than I was before. Please stop doing that.

@Delenn: Do you think Davesto is fake claiming ascetic?

That's a pretty ballsy fakeclaim.

I'm having trouble with his busy work. Why do that as an ascetic? Why draw so much unnecessary attention to oneself?

It's gotta be noobness shining through.

I think he's town and in over his head.

^informed minority speaking right here!!!!

What? How? How are you drawing that conclusion?

This is a terrible, fake reaction.

@Delenn: Do you think Davesto is fake claiming ascetic?

That's a pretty ballsy fakeclaim.

I'm having trouble with his busy work. Why do that as an ascetic? Why draw so much unnecessary attention to oneself?

It's gotta be noobness shining through.

I think he's town and in over his head.

^informed minority speaking right here!!!!

What? How? How are you drawing that conclusion?

did i mention shiro is scum before?

if not i'm doing it now.

shiro is scum.

Cool cool but that info still doesn't help me realise how that conclusion was drawn from that post though. Believe it or not I am honestly confused.

A <3 though for the lovely observation

Again, forced and faked.

VOTE: Hippy

What an atrocious vote.

Mmkay does anyone actually have a half-decent case for Titus? Because I'm pretty sure the only decent case on them is that one post I made and even I'm not thinking they're scum that hard.

If you are going to wilfully misinterpret the purpose of what I've been doing, can you at least be clear that you're planning to do that? It would make things a lot simpler from my point of view.

Ill give you a good case why Titus is town:

The wagon includes: Anti, Mollie, TSO. People who always end up voting Titus day one because "Titus is always scum"

I AM NOT SURE THAT LOGICAL REASONING IS YOUR STRONG SUIT.

This shouldn't be taken as an insult, this should be taken as constructive criticism. Seriously.

Ill give you a good case why Titus is town:

The wagon includes: Anti, Mollie, TSO. People who always end up voting Titus day one because "Titus is always scum"

I was looking for both a good case and a scum case to justify the wagon on Delenn.

You failed to deliver both.

Except Greninja has been militantly against the Delenn wagon. Are you reading the game at all?

Mmkay does anyone actually have a half-decent case for Titus? Because I'm pretty sure the only decent case on them is that one post I made and even I'm not thinking they're scum that hard.

This.

Titus wagon is still awful.

-Ank

Ank - you really cannot afford to play badly this game. There are plenty of people who are going to do that for you.

this game has just enough know it all, devils advocate wagon pooh-poohers to make this game completely constipated and dysfunctional

it's beautiful

An accurate summary of the game so far.

The only person I'm having good feelings about on that wagon is Hippy Love. If literally anyone else jumped off the wagon, I'd hate it slightly less.

-Ank

Have you noticed I'm on the Delenn wagon? You must not have.

[T S O]

I am debating whether testing this claim is a good idea or not. I am not sure it is, given the amount of scum roles that Titus could be which also prevent lynch, like Governor or scum Unlynchable variants. I'll think about it. But be clear - Titus remains scum.

[T S O]

If anything, the claim makes less than no sense from your point of view, since even if you are 1-shot Unlynchable, that in no way proves you're town, as there can be Alien variants of that, etc. It doesn't confirm you in any way when it resolves.

[T S O]

Are you talking to me, or Greninja, or someone else? It's really not clear.

[T S O]

Can you point out examples of me doing that? Because I pretty flatly disagree with that. For example, Bot and Fire have both stayed firmly off the Delenn wagon, yet I have not attacked either of them. I am attacking Greninja for horrible, nihilistic play which will lead to us losing the game, and I'm attacking you because I feel a lot of what you say lacks clarity.

[T S O]

tso stop getting distracted by shiny things

we are lynching titus today. trust me.

I know, I know, it's just so difficult.

[T S O]

Greninja - your argument about people like me not being able to read Titus seems to be more than a little distilled by the fact that Titus has been invariably lynched as scum when I am town in the past, and not when she is town. My track record on reading Titus is provably solid - given this, your continued insistence that it's a mislynch for the above reason feels more than a little off.

[T S O]

TSO's mindset: People voting Delenn = Town. People not voting Delenn = Not as town.

Ok.

Sigh.

Your Firebringer vote was a bad vote. The badness isn't simply that you stopped voting Delenn. Firebringer is a bad vote, full stop.

[T S O]

Actually - 944 is somewhat accurate with what I'm thinking right now, LF.

[T S O]

I'm proposing a lynch based on someone's apparent actions making no fucking sense with their internal thought processes, but I understand that this may be too cerebral a concept for many people.

[T S O]

Your Firebringer vote was a bad vote. The badness isn't simply that you stopped voting Delenn. Firebringer is a bad vote, full stop.

Why? Because i was sheeping or because of who I was voting?
Now you're going to tell me my botlane vote is bad too?

Because Firebringer is likely town, and voting town isn't a particularly successful strategy? This is basic stuff.

[T S O]

But seriously, what are you gonna do if Delenn does revive after a lynch, are you gonna force a lynch on them again tomorrow? You're not even slightly thinking.

I am debating whether testing this claim is a good idea or not. I am not sure it is, given the amount of scum roles that Titus could be which also prevent lynch, like Governor or scum Unlynchable variants. I'll think about it. But be clear - Titus remains scum.

[T S O]

I am being drawn into useless discussions which only serve to clog up the game further. This is a common problem with my towngame, unfortunately.

PEdit: I am perfectly willing to take a potential fall in exchange for a Delenn lynch, scot.

[T S O]

There should be some sort of rule that censors posts such as #962 on the grounds of basic, gaping logical errors.

[T S O]

I deliberately have done jacks hit so no one can blame us for being toxic. The only thing toxic is people repeatedly wagoning me in every game.

What a remarkable plan. Pick a role which prevents your lynch, then do zero scumhunting, or zero pro-town actions in general, or zero actions that might actually inhibit the town from lynching you.

I see you have thought this through quite clearly.

[T S O]

Calling Hippy Love is a classic deflection of pressure by Delenn - presumably I am also a Lyncher, and we both got the same target.

[T S O]

It's delightful when you see scum go to the tried-and-trusted "vig me, don't lynch me". I particularly like Titus's explanation for why any potential SK would kill them - "they'd lose their obvious fakeclaim otherwise!" Anyone who read this and thought it was remotely credible - shame on you.

[T S O]

Scum - see that votecount? That's a sign of the times. Eventually, Delenn will get lynched today. The only question is whether you can gain towncred by being on it, or become conspicuous by your absence off it.

[T S O]

Evening all.

UNVOTE: Gren

Evening. You are 4 posts away from surpassing Kaboose and shadow.

How do you feel?

It makes me feel like an active player.
Anything big happen so far?

The only remarkable element of the game so far is the Delenn wagon. Either you agree with it, or you don't. This should be the first thing you look at - read my ISO, read Greninja's ISO, make your mind up, post it here. Anyone who tells you to do anything else should be ignored.

[T S O]

Now that you've listed all of those things, I'm going to repeat what I said; the only important thing here is the Delenn wagon. Everything else is irrelevant.

[T S O]

The only remarkable element of the game so far is the Delenn wagon. Either you agree with it, or you don't. This should be the first thing you look at - read my ISO, read Greninja's ISO, make your mind up, post it here. Anyone who tells you to do anything else should be ignored.

I feel like you oversimplified this game here. A lot has happened. We have a claimed third party

Which is in Greninja's ISO, which I told him to read, along with mine.

an argument between Bot and Fox

A useless circlejerk of Fox being wrong.

Davsto and the role requests

A way for Dav to appear like he is doing something, when in reality there is nothing useful he can do with the information. When you suggest that it is useful for a lurker to know that Kaboose wanted to be a Hider, you show utter ineptitude, if you're actually town this game.

countless posts by Purple Love and Hippy dippy

The majority of these are, while good posts, superfluous, as they're basically continuations of the Delenn push.

the mah wagon in of Level 1-1

A useless horrible wagon.

the WHOLE Lizard Wagon

Another useless horrible wagon.

and Delenn.

The only good thing you've mentioned, which coincidentally, was what I told him to do anyway.

Some of this is a bit superfluous

It's all superfluous, I've been telling you this for ages.

but much of it will both make the current games tate make sense and could easily help form reads.

Yeah, I'm sure Dav's list and multiple shitwagons will help a lurker get reads.

I'm not saying Vedith must read it all (honestly, skim Bot vs Fox.

Skim it all, not just that. Aristo doesn't know what he's talking about.

You can also ignore some of Hippy because she/they just yell at everyone to vote Delenn a lot.

Greninja is a good Is if you skim the first bit.

[/quote]

At the end of this post, I wonder was there even a need for me to rip it apart, since your concluding statements showcase your blatantly incorrect view of the gamestate rather neatly.

[T S O]

I'd point to the way Titus has mercilessly jumped on the only wagon that has even the slightest chance of beating her own. I'd point to her stated mindset of "choose role to evade lynch ---> do nothing to attract suspicion and votes" as blatantly false. I'd point to her sheer lack of effort this game, and mediocre attempts to mimic her towngame. I'd point to how Klingon has basically trapped herself in a bunch of lies with regards to why she chose her role. I'd point to how all the competent people are voting one wagon (Mollie, Anti, Ank, me) while a bunch of VI's are championing another, along with Delenn. I'd point to the post where she

actually asked to be vigged rather than lynched[/b] as if town would give a shit either way when the net result is their death anyway. I'd point to what amounts this game to an exceptionally average, vanilla scumgame, with all the trademarks of that alignment, and yet we're not lynching it. I'd point to my own track record of reading Titus being close to 100%.

I'd point to all those things, and yet somehow, this wagon hasn't been driven into the ground yet. It's mind-boggling.

[T S O]

Dav - when I am busy pushing scum, I have no interest in debating the merits of other weaker wagons.

[T S O]

Oh, BotLane has a chance of being lynched, Delenn votes BotLane.
Oh, Vedith has a chance of being lynched, Delenn votes Vedith.

How blatantly opportunistic does it get?

[T S O]

Ari/Dave, would you two consider voting Botlane? We're polishing a case but with my back and her issues it's taking longer than we'd like. I would like my townreads (you two plus Luna) to agree on a wagon.

The case that was being polished miraculously fails to arrive, as any suspicion on BotLane also magically evaporates.

Fascinating.

[T S O]

Anyway, the game is going as it should be - we're lynching obvious scum, and it's going to happen sooner rather than later.

[T S O]

When Titus flips scum, will you sheep me for the rest of the game, or will you continue to attempt to deflect me from lynching scum? I'd hope for the former, but sadly expect the latter.

[T S O]

We're lynching someone who's claimed Unlynchable. There is zero proof, other than their word, that this is true. The claim is clever because we're so risk averse that we don't want to test it.

[T S O]

On one hand, you have someone who has committed a mountain of classic scumtells, none of which they have even attempted to address, let alone actually give an adequate explanation for.
On the other hand, they have made a completely unverifiable claim that they're 1-shot Unlynchable.

Which hand do you feel is stronger?

[T S O]

The likelihood of them being Judas is non-existent. They are equally as likely to be Saulus as Judas; I will personally guarantee you that they are not Judas.

I am extremely confident that they will not evade a lynch by means of their role. But if they do, then you can Bloodhound them, and I will accept your word as gospel. That is how confident I am of Delenn-scum.

[T S O]

we can lynch the indie who I don't think will work for town.

Shiny things, mollie.

and tso I am not wanting to undermine you, I think you have a better pulse on the gamestate than I do.

I don't feel that you are; I appreciate your support of the Delenn wagon, since it has helped me turn it into what will soon be a lynch.

I'm sorry, i just dont want to risk it on the off chance that they are Judas / legit Town 1-shot Lynchproof, the risk is far too great, i think they are better handled by night actions.

The claim is made with exactly this intention in mind. By being so risk-averse, you play into their hands. In the day, scum have next to no power. In the night, they have significantly more. There are so many ways that your plan can go wrong, when it's both simpler and more direct to simply test the claim by lynching.

[T S O]

It must be awkward when your best attempt at scumhunting is to pick an easy target, like a lurker who's also a newbie, and call them scum.

[T S O]

Salamence - your credibility is so incredibly low in the view of literally every player right now that you posting that will actively bolster the Delenn wagon. Not that it needs it, but I appreciate the help.

[T S O]

He wants to purge Shiro at a later date, and he wants the wagon on Vedith purged, not the player. Come on, LF.

[T S O]

TSO, the longer you evade my questions, the more easy it becomes to show my wagon is zealotry/scum driven.

Why would I debate you on my scumread on you? It just allows you to clog the thread. You have been free to defend yourself for the entire game. Instead, you have spent your time voting any wagon with a chance of countering your own. It's not even difficult to point out why you are scum when the reasons are so flagrantly obvious.

[T S O]

Unvote

Excellent. Now that you've realised Ank is town, can you vote the wagon that he thinks he is scum? Much appreciated.

[T S O]

Salamence - your credibility is so incredibly low in the view of literally every player right now that you posting that will actively bolster the Delenn wagon. Not that it needs it, but I appreciate the help.

Oh fuck you.

I want you to kiss my ass and apologize to town when Titus flips town TONIGHT VIA VIG.

We arent lynching her because YOU ARE A LYNCHER AT THIS POINT.

FUCK OFF

According to Titus, Mollie's the Lyncher, not me. You two should straighten that out.

But seriously - don't blame me for lynching scum, blame yourself for not helping me.

[T S O]

Zitos - you're really disappointing me here. The very least you could do this game would be to passively aid a scum lynch by voting Delenn.

[T S O]

Yeah, yeah, keep posting the rhetoric on how you're constantly lynched unfairly. It won't do any good.

[T S O]

With friends like Greninja, who needs people calling you scum? I called the Zitos scum in one of my very first posts, I called Shiro scum as well.

[T S O]

I'd point to the way Titus has mercilessly jumped on the only wagon that has even the slightest chance of beating her own. I'd point to her stated mindset of "choose role to evade lynch ---> do nothing to attract suspicion and votes" as blatantly false. I'd point to her sheer lack of effort this game, and mediocre attempts to mimic her towngame. I'd point to how Klingon has basically trapped herself in a bunch of lies with regards to why she chose her role. I'd point to how all the competent people are voting one wagon (Mollie, Anti, Ank, me) while a bunch of VI's are championing another, along with Delenn. I'd point to the post where she

actually asked to be vigged rather than lynched

as if town would give a shit either way when the net result is their death anyway. I'd point to what amounts this game to an exceptionally average, vanilla scumgame, with all the trademarks of that alignment, and yet we're not lynching it. I'd point to my own track record of reading Titus being close to 100%.

I'd point to all those things, and yet somehow, this wagon hasn't been driven into the ground yet. It's mind-boggling.

We can start by discussing this, Delenn, you seem to have conveniently missed it.

[T S O]

I used to love this game once.

I hear you - but Large Day 1's are the very worst for this kind of long, arduous grind to getting scum lynched. It'll get better, I promise.

[T S O]

It was very lucky for me that my Lynch target just so happened to be a complete and utter scumfuck, but I guess I've just got some great odds this game!

[T S O]

Shiro - much as I hated your responses earlier, I did like one of your later responses. You voting this wagon would go a long way to making me feel better about you.

[T S O]

Sorry darling, your team's going to lose this game.

[T S O]

holy hell

is this really fucking happening

yeah.

[T S O]

That's pathetic and anti-town, Luna, but you can do what you want.

[T S O]

Don't make the thread into a boast about how great your scumgame is. I also have a winrate as scum that's something like 80%, and they're all with me alive at endgame. There's no need to flaunt a winrate.

[T S O]

I don't mind, Salamence. I legitimately don't mind. But when I push this lynch through, and you see that red colour - right before you rationalise your failure, the way you directly pushed against your win condition, right before you justify your own mediocrity - there will be a split second where you realise that you were completely and fundamentally wrong, and that your entire approach to scumhunting and to the game bears the same hallmarks of dangerous arrogance without the necessary competence needed to back that up.

[T S O]

Luna - disappointing stuff. It doesn't feel as good as you thought it would, does it? You start feeling a little uneasy with the position you're taking. You'll come around.

[T S O]

Shiro - you feel she's potentially scum. I feel she's very strongly scum. When someone like this openly advocates that they should be handled by vig - you realise that they most definitely have an ace in their corner. A contingency plan. Dealing with her at night is cowardly and removes the blame from your shoulders. Man up and own your actions - vote or don't, but this rubbish about leaving it until night is beneath you.

[T S O]

It's gratifying when your study of psychology bears fruit. Luna, Google anchoring if you want, and be amazed as you realise how effectively you're anchored by an arbitrary claim.

PEdit: It says in the Wiki that in forum mafia, the Lyncher is either above or below the player on the list.

You are so bad, Salamence.

[T S O]

Shiro - you feel she's potentially scum. I feel she's very strongly scum. When someone like this openly advocates that they should be handled by vig - you realise that they most definitely have an ace in their corner. A contingency plan. Dealing with her at night is cowardly and removes the blame from your shoulders. Man up and own your actions - vote or don't, but this rubbish about leaving it until night is beneath you.

Or they are town saving time for everyone.

Seriously, fear about a hidden mysterious ace in the corner.

You lynch me, I will not flip.

Keep on fearmongering - your cabal of idiots aren't going to help you, Titus.

[T S O]

Ank - I could really use you around right now, this is YCBA III all over again.

[T S O]

Normally I'm a little more tactful, but you literally revel in your badness, so you may as well just embrace it.

[T S O]

It's not too far - he's playing to his win condition, I'm playing to mine. His is to disrupt me lynching scum. Mine is to point out the blatant flaws in his posts, and lynch scum while I do it.

[T S O]

oh tso

fetch me the nukes

[T S O]

I think the whole ad hom between Greninja and TSO needs to stop, Ad hom isn't a convincing argument i.e (You're bad, you're going to look bad) that's Appeal to fear if anything, and insulting TSO in response isnt going to make you look more convincing.

TSO if you want to convince me to lynch Delenn, tell me in a bullet point case why they are scum, indicating post links if preferable, otherwise you're just yelling "They're scum lynch them" and that's not a convincing argument.

That's at least something I can respond to but here comes a no response.

I have just seen the force-replace on Salamence - I'd like to make it clear I disagree with this, I didn't feel anything he set crossed a boundary.

[T S O]

I think the whole ad hom between Greninja and TSO needs to stop, Ad hom isn't a convincing argument i.e (You're bad, you're going to look bad) that's Appeal to fear if anything, and insulting TSO in response isnt going to make you look more convincing.

This is true, but it's very hard to debate people who are so aggressively wrong.

TSO if you want to convince me to lynch Delenn, tell me in a bullet point case why they are scum, indicating post links if preferable, otherwise you're just yelling "They're scum lynch them" and that's not a convincing argument.

I'll certainly do that. While I make a case, you should also look around for a case for your vote, as it's now the largest wagon in the game. It has practically no basis, rather than "hurr durr lurker". The people voting it are, in general, highly suspect.

It honestly remind me of your game in Masqurade TSO where you were tunneling Anen and then he flipped town while you ended up winning the game as scum.

Even to the point of everyone townreading you like they did there.

I have said before that I will produce verifiable results as town, whereas they will be mislynches as scum.

in that case, i'd disagree that #1526 can be sufficiently summed up with "Ari doesn't like the Delenn wagon," but that's probably just because I agree some of the specific points about TSO and am honestly wondering if TSO can respond to them without calling Ari incompetent.

I tend to call people incompetent when they make really bad posts, but I'll see what I can do.

[T S O]

Mollie, Anti, Ank - this is so painful to have to do.

[T S O]

T S O

I want a read on Aristophanes when you get back.

-Ank

Probably scum, from a glance. Disagreeing with me isn't scum, plenty of people like Fire have done it and are town, but the way he went about it makes him likely scum.

[T S O]

Where are you at this game, Ank? You're disappointingly quiet.

[T S O]

I wonder does Titus think that it's her scumplay that's causing this mislynch? It's not. You're playing a really awful scumgame, honestly. It's just that there are so many bad players in the game that you can get away with it.

[T S O]

I am not sure if I have ever felt the urge to message mollie and vent about this game this strongly, although it's against the rules. It is so frustrating when the counterwagon to scum is a lurker that

nobody knows the reason for voting.

I have been asked to make a case for Titus-scum. It's insulting when I have already given a paragraph on why the slot is bleeding scum, and the counterwagon that is being voted has no reason for voting. Literally, no reason.

[T S O]

Yes. That's basically what I am saying. It is not a very palatable message, but the majority of people in this game aren't good enough to think for themselves. Some, like Aristo, are scum. Others, like you, are town. Unfortunately, the town idiots are basically uninformed members of the scumteam.

[T S O]

I'm sorry for the sheer unbridled arrogance, but it is the truth after all.

[T S O]

I am calling you an utter idiot right now. The counterpoint to this should be "Fuck you, I'm voting this player, and this is why.2

Instead, you look to other people to back up your moan about how I am not playing nice. Here is some advice;

stop moaning and back up your fucking scumread so I don't have grounds to call you an idiot.

Because otherwise? You are an idiot. Anyone who doesn't know why they're voting is an idiot.

[T S O]

Or, hell, it's bonus point time here; for extra credit, maybe you can clear up a few things? Maybe, instead about moaning about the Delenn wagon, and how much of a prick I am, you should address the points I made on it? Because the best way to discredit me is to disprove the Delenn wagon.

There is an extremely succinct paragraph in my ISO that sums up 90% of my reasons for voting. I have actually quoted it recently as well. You should look for that. This is called good townplay. This is how you play Mafia.

[T S O]

I am telling you to play the game, and every time I try to goad you into doing it, your response is to complain about me. I don't understand why people play this game when they so openly don't want to win.

[T S O]

I won't apologise for telling you to take responsibility for your vote. Sorry about that, by the way.

[T S O]

To make it clear, Davsto - I made points. They're in a paragraph. I have quoted the paragraph recently. You don't know that because you're not reading the game, because it is too much effort to read my posts. It is much easier to dismiss them outright, to decide that you are right and I am wrong. It also helps to prevent that rising unease you start getting whenever you read them because you know that there is something there.

You have every right to do this. But taking umbrage when I criticise you for doing it is just silly.

[T S O]

And making the game about a scumread is a remarkably effective way of garnering reads. You're town, mollie's town, Delenn's scum, Aristo's scum, Fire's town.

[T S O]

Level 1-1 is town, I'm town. Vedith and Anti are townreads, but less sure than any of the ones I mentioned. Shiro is a scumread, but less sure than the ones I mentioned. The Greninja slot is probably scum as well. I'm not sure about Luna Fox or BotLane. A lot of the other players are varying degrees of null, like shaddowez and farside. I would be reasonably willing to bet that those would be mainly accurate reads come endgame. What about you?

[T S O]

I called you an idiot for not knowing why you were voting Vedith. You still don't seem to know why you're voting Vedith. Is this my fault?

[T S O]

@TiKC: Why did you feel the need to stop spamposting when a person who annoys you tells you to?

It's her excuse for always voting us and I am trying to model good town behavior for KC.

Was your earlier lurking also a model of good town behaviour for KC?

You're not even trying to maintain a consistent story any more.

Vedith case has been made

Quote it.

[T S O]

TSO, look at your reads. Your sure townreads agree with you and your sure scumreads disagree with you. You basically ignored me calling you a hypocrite saying the case had been made on Vedith and you ignored it to reiterate that those who agree with you are town and are sure on that until the end game.

Oh look, two of my main townreads disagree with me:

And making the game about a scumread is a remarkably effective way of garnering reads.

You're town,

mollie's town, Delenn's scum, Aristo's scum,

Fire's town.

Spellbinding.

[T S O]

Didn't you say you were going to quote it?

[T S O]

I mean, you not quoting it implies that until now, there hasn't actually been a case of any sort. An explanation of any kind. Just you asking people to vote Vedith so you don't die instead.

That would be pretty scummy, no?

[T S O]

While you're here - can you lay out why Klingon asked you to hydra with her as town when you're always mislynched as town? That certainly seems odd.

It would make significantly more sense that Klingon considers you a good

scum

player and asked you to hydra with her as scum. Both from Klingon's perspective, and from yours.

[T S O]

What you're saying is that you believe the claim. I'm saying I don't believe the claim, and both logic and probability agree with me. Our conversation cannot progress when you are unwilling to lynch someone because of a claim that has no authenticity, other than the word of the person making it.

[T S O]

May I add that he also contradicted himself when he said he voted purely for sheeping and the said it was for finding her scum

This is a

classic newb error,

though. He said exactly what he meant at the start, then didn't want to sound bad, so changed his reasoning to the better-sounding "I think they're scum." It's not alignment indicative - he's just as likely to say that as town, rather than as scum.

[T S O]

What are you talking about? Chain of thought? The case on Vedith, aside from you quoting yourself calling him scummy a few times, is that he admitted he was sheeping, and then tried to renege on that because it doesn't sound great. That's it. Half the quotes you pulled are utterly unrelated to Vedith-scum.

[T S O]

Kthx - that wagon isn't going to happen, I'm afraid.

Shiro - people do this thing called lying as scum. In her most recent scum game, Titus lied a lot. If you actually think she can't do the same here, that she holds to some kind of honour code as scum - this is a highly naive and inexperienced view.

[T S O]

Vedith, I admire your enthusiasm, but fake dayvigs aren't going to help us here.

[T S O]

I'd just like to say - if this is true - Vedith, you're a great guy. Aristophanes, you're next.

[T S O]

It's an extremely verifiable lie, though.

Shiro - Steven Universe. Titus and I played as the Trench Warfare hydra, though I was largely absent from d3 on.

[T S O]

The amount of people voting you clearly outweights that, Titus.

[T S O]

The Delenn wagon contains many good names and players. Your Vedith wagon contains you and Aristo, who are scum, farside, who is lurking, Luna, who apparently is voting to spite me, Davsto, who has tacitly admitted he has no idea why he's voting it, Kaboose, who's openly not playing, and a few others.

Are you actually trying to suggest that the Vedith wagon has a better composition? It really doesn't, at all.

[T S O]

Oh, how surprising that was!

[T S O]

VOTE: Aristophanes

[T S O]

Props to everyone who saw the light and and helped me lynch Delenn. Props also to Vedith for making the kill happen.

[T S O]

BotLane is also very likely town.

[T S O]

Rubbish vote.

[T S O]

I think Art's town tho...

Your reads haven't been particularly virtuoso so far.

[T S O]

Shiro - no, not modconfirmed town. Mafia can be a Dayvig, and it wasn't a hardcore bus since Saulus and the scumteam don't know each other for obvious reasons.

[T S O]

But quite, quite likely to be town. Good enough to be off the table as a lynch for a long time.

[T S O]

I'm just going to make it clear - Titus wanted to be scum and was playing a scumgame. She specifically did not want to convert, and every point made against her was both legitimate and ignored by people voting Vedith in any way. Yeah, Salamence, you too.

[T S O]

Shiro?

[T S O]

Saulus starts off as scum, LF.

[T S O]

How did you know that the scumteam knew the Saulus?

[T S O]

If your reply is not in within thirty seconds then I'll powerlynch you. How did you know that?

[T S O]

Why did you think that?

[T S O]

I was only speculating, I don't know either.

[T S O]

You're dead, get out.

[T S O]

Why did you think that?

I thought's I read it on the wiki page.

I can't find it anywhere on the Wiki page, but I think it would be a very good idea if you found it and linked it. Because if it's not on the Wiki...

[T S O]

Ika, theoretically speaking, would a scumteam know the identity of a Saulus, or would it be mutually anonymous?

[T S O]

This game is simple - we lynch Aristo, and go from there. Anyone not voting Aristo - do it.

[T S O]

Greys Holly - while you were busy catching up, or something, I started a Titus wagon which resulted in her death by dayvig and subsequent flip of Mafia Saulus. I'd appreciate it if you voted Aristo.

[T S O]

Agreed. Unfortunately, Shiro darling, it makes you look a little suspect. Point remains, we're still lynching Aristo.

[T S O]

You know all those people who refused to vote Delenn? Luna, you? Curiously, you all seem to refuse to vote Aristo as well.

[T S O]

It's almost like Aristo's scum as well.

[T S O]

It's okay, Dav, it happens to us all.

[T S O]

Victory, mollie!

[T S O]

Mollie, what do you think about an Aristo wagon? I particularly hated the style in which he defended Delenn.

[T S O]

The scumteam knew that Titus was one of them, but presumably Titus's role was being implemented like a Traitor. So associative tells are in play.

[T S O]

And there goes the person I was bouncing ideas off.

Thanks for compromising the game, Titus.

[T S O]

Can you vote Aristo before you leave? It'll just speed things up.

[T S O]

It likely contained game-compromising information of some sort.

[T S O]

The issue with messages like that is that the information contained in them probably won't affect the game. But it could, and if it does, you get branded a cheat for not replacing. It really does suck.

[T S O]

She knew that the Vedith wagon was shit - it would certainly have been interesting to see what the win condition change would have forced her to do.

[T S O]

I'm disappointed that you guys didn't pick up on some of the more overt stuff, really.

Kaboose plays almost the same as scum as he does as town - not really thinking much. He hasn't done much that's alignment indicative yet. Solid vig choice.

[T S O]

We don't actually know if we have a Vig. We also didn't know if Titus had protection of some sort. Sending it to night was basically like flipping two coins and hoping they were both Heads.

[T S O]

Aristo, if you're online and you see the wagon on you - you should try to explain your Vedith vote, among other things.

[T S O]

I'm claiming.

[T S O]

Town Black Goo. I have played extremely aggressively this game. Normally my town game is aggressive, but I have been trying to draw an early nightkill to cripple scum further. It's going according to plan.

I am claiming because I am aware that I am quite likely to receive protection tonight from town. Do not do this. If you target me with an action as town you are a moron. This isn't a gambit where you are meant to actually protect me - this is me flat out telling you that you should not target me.

[T S O]

Claiming makes the odds of scum shooting me lower, but also prevents needless town conversions. The latter is more important than the former.

[T S O]

@TSO Serious question. Since you were planning to play pro town and wish to win. Why did you pick black goo over lover ? Black goo being a role that can easily punish town as well.

Because I selected scum in the other two and thought that in the unlikely event this set was selected, Black Goo would be more funny than putting myself at the whims of someone else, who would probably be useless.

[T S O]

Aristo wagon is still better than voting the Greninja slot on faulty probability reasoning. There are plenty of reasons why you could vote Greninja, but that's not one of them.

[T S O]

Luna - you're not going to be shot because you have zero credibility right now, while I have significantly more.

[T S O]

Shaddowez isn't playing and deserves to be force-replaced.

[T S O]

Mollie.

[T S O]

What do you expect? You openly backed the town counterwagon to scum. You can atone for that, but you can't pretend it didn't happen.

[T S O]

Do I get any town points for that TSO??

No.

[T S O]

PH's rabble case seems to be decent. I am extremely wary of not backing myself to the hilt, since Aristo is likely scum as well, but I'll do either. Aristo voters, I won't mind if you switch over, but if rabble flips town then Aristophanes dies tomorrow.

[T S O]

tso ily this game because you're killing it

WE COULD HAVE BEEN LOVERS

But then scum would have most definitely shot us! Though it would have been quite romantic.

[T S O]

Town acts as a team, not as a single leader, because if that leader's scum, that's the moment you lose, something to think about.

This is true, but in practice, without leaders town is a disjointed headless mess. A leader is easily vetted; if he gets scum lynched he's a good leader, if not he sucks.

[T S O]

Me being alive in LyLo would be a Jesus-esque miracle.

[T S O]

So this just popped into my mind but what if like TSO didn't claim and loads of people targeted him at night.

Would that like spell almost instant cult victory?

I just want to make it clear here - this is a not a throwaway comment. This is the final nail in the coffin of Shiro-town. He's scum.

Despie that tho, i still dont fully trust you, specially because you're assuming the position of town leader after the Delenn flip,

I was assuming that position before the flip. It just took the flip to make my authority stable enough.

guess what, that's the sort of thing scum likes to do, Town on the other hand likes to discuss and work as a team.

Actually, I like to do it as town. The last time I tried to discuss reads with you, you voted another player out of spite, and refused point-blank to listen to extremely compelling arguments on why you were wrong. You haven't exactly showered yourself in glory with these actions.

News Flash! Other factions (Werewolf, Alien, 3p) can also catch Mafia, the only people i fully believe to be town right now are Vedith (who is impossible to be mafia unless he literally wasted a 1-shot shooting a teammate

You realise that what you're saying is that "You could be another faction scumhunting!!" and directly after go on to clear Vedith because he's not Mafia.

Is there something I'm missing here? These are not very compelling arguments.

So this just popped into my mind but what if like TSO didn't claim and loads of people targeted him at night.

Would that like spell almost instant cult victory?

What's the point of this?

It would spell out big Cult majority (although they wouldn't be able to win unless every single other scum was converted I think) but I fail to see how this is relevant to TSO...

The confusion may be that Black Goo is actually a Town role, not Cult..?

it isn't. It was just a random thought. xD

No it wasn't, you're scum.

You know who else expressed vague avoidance of the Delenn wagon in favor of a throwaway vote on Mr Elvis?

SHADDOWEZ

LETS GET THAT SH*T DONE

A horrible vote. Get the slot force-replaced, don't lynch it when there are multiple obvious scum in our sights.

[T S O]

Shiro's still scum.

[T S O]

They shot every single obvtown player. I will admit, I did not think Ank was as town as I said I did, but I needed support from them.

[T S O]

We really need a scum lynch today. I agree the Greys thing is probably scum, but I think Shiro is a significantly better vote for some really awful posts he's made.

[T S O]

Kthx - could you kindly explain how you think that your giant list will help at all? In any possible scenario?

[T S O]

I'd appreciate if you and Nati either caught very quickly or forwent that process entirely. I want Shiro dead today - if you could get back to me on that, it'll be far more productive than reading 20 pages of me trying to convince people to vote scum.

[T S O]

Both yours and Nati's slots are mainly null - I would scumread Nati, but shaddowez seems less likely to be strategically lurking when he actually ended up replacing. I am hoping for you to do good things so I can townread you.

[T S O]

I don't want hiplop on the table today - it won't happen, and that's the end of it. Frogger, you can camp your vote there if you want, my opinion of your slot couldn't be any worse in terms of alignment.

[T S O]

It seems likely that purple hero shot Elvis - I find it curious that they didn't shoot rabble, but it seems likely they felt rabble was an easier lynch to push so went for Elvis.

[T S O]

That points quite strongly to rabble-scum as well, really.

[T S O]

I admit - I misplayed in stating my townreads. I don't think it's a coincidence that the entire townbloc was decimated in the way it happened.

[T S O]

Frogger - there are two scenarios. Either you are scum, and Salamence was hard-defending Titus (this is exactly the sort of play I would expect Salamence to make as scum), or you're a third party and Salamence is just terrible. The former seems more likely. Your absence increases that, by the way - I would expect you to lurk more as scum than as town.

[T S O]

Rabble or Shiro - who's more likely to be scum for you?

[T S O]

Shiro's knowledge about Saulus feels extremely strongly like a scumslip.

[T S O]

Kthx - I need you focusing and not trying to do too much here. Specifically, your imput on Shiro/rabble.

[T S O]

Frogger - that's possible. If it is, show me you're town by producing some good content. That's reads on both Shiro and rabble.

If it's not clear to everyone by now, I couldn't give a fuck about anything if it's not specifically Shiro/rabble.

[T S O]

I decided to go do some research on how Mala plays as scum - according to her first post here she lurks as scum, and the three towngames didn't contain any lurking.

Her lurking here probably also points to Mala-scum.

[T S O]

Shiro - your Saulus comments are rather damning. Unless you address them, you will either be lynched today or tomorrow.

You should do that.

[T S O]

There is a solution for that - it's called replacing out.

[T S O]

I disagree with Vedith in that scum don't always play optimally, but I cannot deny that it's plausible that Shiro read the rules. I find it odd that he went to the Wiki initially rather than the rules. I also find Shiro to be unlikely to actually read them, but I'm not willing to burn a lynch today and something that can be plausibly explained.

[T S O]

VOTE: rabble rabble rabble

[T S O]

I always preach NKA as a tenet of Mafia, and perhaps the purple hero kill was simply a coincidence. But the only exceptional thing about them that I can see causing a shot would be the rabble push. Rabble was voting Vedith, rabble was voting Aristophanes.

I've decided I want this dead today.

[T S O]

Shiro - what's your read on rabble?

[T S O]

And, yes, vote up. But don't fucking hammer. I want to make a few big posts before we close the day out.

[T S O]

I do want to go for someone on both the Vedith and Ari wagons rather than a lurker. I will be looking into rabble more as I have them as unsorted right now.

~SW

Rabble was on both. Remember when we discussed NKA in the Delicious II dead chat? PH's death is extremely likely to be due to their strong and vocal Rabble scumread.

[T S O]

Mala, you have a game day of reprieve, but I can't give you any more than that.

[T S O]

@TSO:

Thoughts on who you'd want in a town block if left to lead? Also, thoughts on Luna, specifically p2025?

Vedith shot scum and discarded WW FBI Agent. Very town.

Apart from that, there is no-one I can particularly recommend right now - there are competent players (you, Nati, SW/Shin hydra) who I don't trust enough to lead right now.

As for the discards/claims lists, it's there to help when someone claims some bullshit PR or VT while discarding some PR. I don't believe for a second someone chooses vanilla over a PR.

For the sake of completion:

Game 1: Mafia Lover, Mafia 1-shot Dayvig - chose the latter.
Game 2: Black Goo, Lover - chose the former.
Game 3: Lover, Werewolf Miller - chose the latter.

[T S O]

It certainly seems odd that scum would shoot purple hero when they were likely to push through your lynch today. It had my implicit support, and with Aristophanes flipping town it had further credence as a scum wagon. Balanced against all this, and with purple hero's only other major scumread being Fire (who was town), and no PR hinting/crumbs, you think that scum shot purple hero?

It seems a poor shot, to say the least.

[T S O]

Your cry of "nightkills can't be analysed" is just wrong. The fact that you cannot actually invent a plausible reason for purple hero being shot is a condemnation of your claims to be town.

[T S O]

Shiro - I'll respond to you later tonight. In the meantime, can you vote Rabble? Thanks.

[T S O]

Mr Elvis could have picked him as a lover.

Elvis showed zero suspicion of that slot, agreed with them at one stage, and had a scumread on the shaddowez slot.

If he didn't want to be a Lover, he would have targetted Davsto.
If he wanted to be a Lover with scum, he would have targeted shaddowez.

So him targetting purple hero makes zero sense.

Scum could have shot him. Werewolf could have shot him.[/quote]

I agree with this. The difference between us is that I can assign motivation to this action (he was going to get scum-you lynched, therefore removing him was beneficial) whereas your explanation is non-existent. It seems to assume that scum just shoot people randomly for no reason, and that purple hero just got unlucky.

Let me tell you - that's not the case on this site.

Another vig (perhaps firebringer) could have shot him.[/quote]

Firebringer gave no reads, but suggesting that he decided to use the Vig on purple hero, someone who had zero suspicion and had just pushed a counterwagon to a townflip... no.

[T S O]

Sigh.

Mr Elvis could have picked him as a lover.

Elvis showed zero suspicion of that slot, agreed with them at one stage, and had a scumread on the shaddowez slot.

If he didn't want to be a Lover, he would have targetted Davsto.
If he wanted to be a Lover with scum, he would have targeted shaddowez.

So him targetting purple hero makes zero sense.

Scum could have shot him. Werewolf could have shot him.

I agree with this. The difference between us is that I can assign motivation to this action (he was going to get scum-you lynched, therefore removing him was beneficial) whereas your explanation is non-existent. It seems to assume that scum just shoot people randomly for no reason, and that purple hero just got unlucky.

Let me tell you - that's not the case on this site.

Another vig (perhaps firebringer) could have shot him.

Firebringer gave no reads, but suggesting that he decided to use the Vig on purple hero, someone who had zero suspicion and had just pushed a counterwagon to a townflip... no.

[T S O]

Yeah, I knew you'd go to the WIFOM defense eventually. Here's the thing.

They could shoot purple hero, and waste their nightkill, in the hope that maybe someone would do NKA and maybe they'd start pushing you based on that.

Or they could save their nightkill for a better place, leave PH alive and allow them to almost certainly get you mislynched the next day.

[T S O]

I am really disappointed that you've selected this route to defend yourself - it's no fun at all crushing it.

[T S O]

Unlikely, Shiro, their play doesn't particularly make sense as scumbuddies.

[T S O]

That's nice. It's a terrible plan to stay alive, but I admire you sticking to your guns.

[T S O]

I'm offering a reason why purple hero was killed. You're not. You keep talking about making assumptions, but you have no way to explain something other than the blindingly obvious explanation that makes you scum.

[T S O]

Give me one good reason, other than something about lurking or content. I agree it's terrible townplay, but Fire played exactly the same, and he was town.

[T S O]

If you had to give a percentage of how sure you are that Greys is scum, would it be in the high nineties?

[T S O]

I think it bears repeating that I do not think Greys is town so much as I think that rabble is scum. I'll lynch the former, but I'd prefer the latter.

[T S O]

Shiro, I'm sorry, but half the game will have figured out what you are saying by now, if not more, so I'll be blunt:

Do you have an incriminating result?