Queen of Hearts [Game Over]

[iraonavp]

Hi, everyone!

VOTE: Harkonnen97

[iraonavp]

VOTE: grapes

[iraonavp]

Policy lynch seems like a bad idea. Why don't you vote someone you think is scum-aligned?

[iraonavp]

the game is pretty much blather and I have no reads yet

this is a thing I do every game I play with Katsuki so don't worry I'm not actually serious

Okay, I think you are slightly scum-aligned for this.

But I am not going to vote you because I want to avoid making myself look like I am backing Harkonnen97's post which I don't think is a very good reason for a vote.

[iraonavp]

What? I'm not, and I'm town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

No, I don't think it will look bad on me. I just don't want to support your reasoning, and I already have a good vote on grapes.

[iraonavp]

Why are you voting me? I'm town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

I think Harkonnen97 is town-aligned, because he is fearlessly and very fast. It looks like you just caught him in fake semantic traps, I especially think Untrod Tripod's vote is scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

That doesn't make sense, but at least you are enthusiastic...

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

[iraonavp]

I think scumhunting (what I understand as putting in effort) is a pretty good reason to townread someone at this stage in the game. That's not the same as activity, though.

I get that you were prodding, but what are your thoughts on Vedith and Grapes, now that you've moved your votes off them?

idk
It's not just you, I can't remember a game I've played that I didn't get wagoned in (other then my one IC game)

I'm just naturally scummy I suppose.

(my bold)

This kind of annoys me. Is there something about your play which you think people interpret as scummy?

@CKD - What is it about grapes which makes you think they're scummy?

Can you vote someone instead of just asking questions?

[iraonavp]

doubt any response was going to change your "read". and the actual point you're working around is that I doubt hark as scum would put himself at the forefront of activity+suspicion, which is something that I think you're purposefully ignoring.

Being active and trying to put effort isn't a good reason to townread someone.

unvote

How is that a town-aligned post?

It made me think he was less town-aligned, because he is questioning a town-aligned read on himself...

I think that you are scum-aligned because this seems too theatrical, if you were town-aligned I expect you would just vote someone else or say why your opinion changed rather than unvoting silently.

[iraonavp]

I think scumhunting (what I understand as putting in effort) is a pretty good reason to townread someone at this stage in the game. That's not the same as activity, though.

I get that you were prodding, but what are your thoughts on Vedith and Grapes, now that you've moved your votes off them?

idk
It's not just you, I can't remember a game I've played that I didn't get wagoned in (other then my one IC game)

I'm just naturally scummy I suppose.

(my bold)

This kind of annoys me. Is there something about your play which you think people interpret as scummy?

@CKD - What is it about grapes which makes you think they're scummy?

BOOP BOOP BOOP SCUM ALERT

vote Froot Loop

I think that you are voting them purely for playstyle reasons of questioning people and being detached...

[iraonavp]

doubt any response was going to change your "read". and the actual point you're working around is that I doubt hark as scum would put himself at the forefront of activity+suspicion, which is something that I think you're purposefully ignoring.

Being active and trying to put effort isn't a good reason to townread someone.

unvote

How is that a town-aligned post?

It made me think he was less town-aligned, because he is questioning a town-aligned read on himself...

I think that you are scum-aligned because this seems too theatrical, if you were town-aligned I expect you would just vote someone else or say why your opinion changed rather than unvoting silently.

I think he's being extremely transparent with his reasoning and is pushing against people calling him town for what he considers bad reasons

that's enough for me at this stage in the game

So the post you quoted didn't have any relevance because he wasn't really doing that...

And he was always doing this, even while you were voting him! So this seems to me like a fake reason that you just made up now instead of explaining how his post questioning the town-aligned read on him was town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

Well between when you unvoted and your last post before that, he didn't do anything of what you described, so why were you voting him in the first place then...

[iraonavp]

It probably means that Marquis thinks you are displaying your motives clearly and in a way that is hard to fake.

FROOTLOOP, if you are not sure who to vote I suggest you vote Untrod Tripod...

[iraonavp]

FROOTLOOP, why does SirCakez' comment about him looking naturally scum-aligned annoy you?

[iraonavp]

Why are you voting FROOTLOOP, grapes?

[iraonavp]

Okay, I guess grapes is literally hiplop then so we can't tell with him at all...

Untrod Tripod's unvote was in conjunction with Marquis' post about how 132 made Harkonnen97 town-aligned, but Untrod Tripod didn't know how to explain it and just used it as an excuse.

Then, when I asked Untrod Tripod about how his response made no sense at all, he just acted confused, which is a scum-aligned response trying to escape his obviously fake read...

[iraonavp]

Can I answer your question, curiouskarmadog?

[iraonavp]

very well then!

This is the primary source, the highest concentration of scum-alignment in the thread...

[iraonavp]

Okay, I guess grapes is literally hiplop then so we can't tell with him at all...

...

this seems rather dismissive of ACTUAL scummy playing.

Well, it looks like he is not going to give us any answers... I think he would do similar things regardless of his alignment.

Also, I am confident that you are town-aligned because you are not a doctor, and I am also not a doctor in likely the same way.

[iraonavp]

Okay, I understand.

[iraonavp]

Okay, I understand.

VOTE: Seraphim

[iraonavp]

harkonnen and vedith are both obvtown

I disagree. Substantially, actually. Especially about Vedith.

Why don't you believe Vedith?

Because Vedith is scum. The post felt in my gut to be a fakeclaim. Also, if it was something that was easy to point e.g. a fabled scumslip, I would have done so. It was part reaction test, part gut, 100% a post to distinguish myself and point out the possibility of Vedith-scum which so far has been a good play given that everyone seems to now want to ignore Vedith.

VOTE: Frootloop

Nice flip flops there, Grapes!

Like my god how does a post like this come from town ever.

I disagree, and I think you are scum-aligned for it.

[iraonavp]

from this point on in the game in Day 1...lets all stop putting town labels on people.

Town post. (Sarcasm for the slower players).

in regards to my previous vote on grapes. Scum tend to try to make friends early day 1. it is human nature to "feel good" about someone who says you are town, even if you dont know you are doing it. I disagree with grapes (and cakez later) that X and X are town. there was very little reason to think that other than "this is how town players are supposed to play in a particular situation". to start (seriously) saying people are obv town this early in the game FOR NO REASON is bullshit. all it does it puts a mark on someone's back. if you are scum, it earns you friends.

I think it's a case that scum fear decent town blocks.
They want everyone to be suspected at all times. I agree that buddying happens, not as much as town calling someone town, but it does. The fact you don't want anyone to be town read/called on day 1 at all is scummy as fuck.

162 is so damn awful, and you are actually using a start date to say how someone should or shouldn't react to a post.
I'm not sure what your interact was overly with Froot, or what the actual point was. Looked to me trying to appear making an effort, when in reality, it was a waste of time.

UNVOTE: Ank
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

"what I was trying to figure out here, is if you really care." - I mean, yeah, okay!

How have we not lynched this yet? Is no one else seeing this? Is it really just me?

Okay, you are just spamming baseless nonsense now...

Seraphim's read on Vedith is pretending to be confident and I think he is scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

What?

[iraonavp]

Those posts stunk like a rotten fish

Why, he said nothing...

[iraonavp]

VOTE: PeregrineV

The series of posts about CKD doesn't sit well with me. I think there's conflicting motivations between the original response and the vote.

I don't know why Seraphim reacted like that to Vedith's claim. I can't see a reason to think particularly one way or the other about it.

What are the conflicting motivations?

I feel like I am missing something...

[iraonavp]

Those posts stunk like a rotten fish

Why, he said nothing...

Exactly, he made three posts that said next to nothing

I think that PeregrineV is a filthy lurker from what I have seen. Lots of people say nothing, like mimes, but that doesn't mean they are scum-aligned...

[iraonavp]

What?

How did you read him then if he posted almost nothing at all?

I think he is town-aligned for interacting with curiouskarmacycle's post about not being doctor...

[iraonavp]

Also, forgot this:

thenewearth, given Hark's precedent on like one of the first posts of the game, why did you not claim doublevoter?

A few things in no particular order:

(R) I really am having a difficult time getting into this game. I can't read anyone for shit. Vedith was kind of a lark to wait D1 out because I hate D1 with a burning passion and hell maybe I could get something going and see what happens. I think policy lynching a miller is probably better than most of what happens on D1 and I do honestly think that post from Vedith I quoted was pretty bad; that interaction with CKD was pretty fake even if I agree with him that CKD was ultimately "wrong" in that particular interaction given that meta doesn't exist as a real predictive output of play. I also did not like Vedith's claim but I definitely could not explain to you in words what.

Unvote

(2) I also really hate making cases. Looking thru ISOs and picking out posts is super draining and I had forgotten how much I hated formatting on this site until I started messing with URL and quote tags. Trying to say anything compelling is so difficult since I feel evidence is needed for me to back up my claims rather than making unsubstantiated assertions which is frankly what I feel 80% of this game is. Not this game in particular just the game of Mafia itself. Anyway this is a digression.

($) This is the second time I am asking this: thenewearth, given Hark's precedent on like one of the first posts of the game, why did you not claim doublevoter?

(1234) In terms of lynching and deadline we are currently less than two days away from deadline, and nothing super substantive wagon-wise is showing up.

I am going to back up Spiffeh; I think this is scum DGB.

Vote: DGB

I am fully aware that this is "meta" of a kind but it's one borne of many games played together. I cannot discern a pattern to her postings; I can only assume she's trying to keep a low profile which is only something scum-DGB does. Once again, I am fully aware that this does not come even close to explaining my feelings on the subject. She plays like someone with something to hide, trying to swim on the rotation of the game's flow of wagons and, finding none, moves around to give the impression of activity. the vote on Peregrine is exactly the sort of post I would expect someone like DGB with the scum alignment to do.

What do the brackets mean...

So you don't really think Vedith is scum-aligned and you never did?

I think your excuses are fake and scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

Okay, Seraphim please claim in that case...

[iraonavp]

I'm not Alice, I'm just a card...

[iraonavp]

how the fuck did I get prodded in a fg game

/proddodge

Okay, you aren't voting anyone though...

[iraonavp]

fwiw i think seraphim might be bookie

What does this mean?

VOTE: Marquis

[iraonavp]

fwiw i think seraphim might be bookie

What does this mean?

what do you think it means?

Why would I ask you if I already knew what it means?

What does "bookie" mean?

UNVOTE: Marquis

[iraonavp]

fwiw i think seraphim might be bookie

What does this mean?

what do you think it means?

Okay, I actually didn't read the setup...

If you don't believe me, why aren't you voting me?

[iraonavp]

so you just claimed you're not an alice without understanding why anyone would want you to claim that?

No, I saw the part of the setup that you quoted.

I just didn't read the rest of it...

[iraonavp]

Hi, Wingback!

[iraonavp]

No, I never clicked the setup spoiler. I only read what you put in the quote, that's what I said already...

[iraonavp]

I did know, while the game was in signups I saw there was a previous game like this, and it was pretty obvious that this was what you were referring to in your post.

How is this alignment indicative anyway?

[iraonavp]

It's not even a townslip though!

All it shows is that I didn't read the setup, I wouldn't lie about that even if I was scum-aligned...

[iraonavp]

yes you wouldn't feign ignorance of the bookie confirmed to be in the game as scum, in a way that doesn't even really make sense (honestly, even if you have no clue about the setup, why would you ask that in the first place without, oh, i dunno, reading the setup), and then attempt to cover up the fact that this is what you were trying to do

I thought it was an word for describing someone like "VI", not a role...

[iraonavp]

I think you are scum-aligned because it's already obvious what my role is and that I am town-aligned, I think you are ignoring this to make superficial and one-sided arguments.

[iraonavp]

Okay, you're scum-aligned then.

VOTE: zMuffinMan

[iraonavp]

I thought it was an word for describing someone like "VI", not a role...

yeah, right, so out of all the things you could have commented on in this game, you felt the need to ask me what i meant when you already thought you knew what it meant

no

I thought you said Seraphim was lying about his role because he was a bookie, I didn't know what that was and your statement didn't make sense to me. I thought you could have been saying he was fakeclaiming as town-aligned.

I think you are scum-aligned because it's already obvious what my role is and that I am town-aligned, I think you are ignoring this to make superficial and one-sided arguments.

ya-huh, sure

i probably wouldnt have raised an eyebrow if your play was actually town but it's not

What?

Why did you never say anything before then?

My play is town-aligned, and I am town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

wait, HAHAHA

two things

the less important one first: i do not for a second believe that you went through the trouble of reading the previous setup to the point where you could skim my 448 and understand what it meant, and i especially don't believe that if you read the previous setup, you didn't think there was important information to learn from reading the setup

the more important one: i did a search of "bookie" in mafia games just in case i'd missed a previous mention of it in this thread and lo and behold, what do i find... YOU specifically talking about a bookie role in a past game

there is NO FUCKING WAY you didn't know what a bookie was

Vote: iraonavp

oh, and before anyone points out that this isn't a strong reason to think iraon is scum (i think it is, but i don't really care to argue it), read his ISO and if you still don't understand why he's scum then i'll break it down for you in very simple terms

No, I just clicked on the game and then got distracted because of the formatting.

I forgot about that game, huh. I didn't remember what it was from that game, and that was a marathon game from like a month ago...

And you're just deflecting like, even though the thing I'm pushing as if it's a scumslip isn't alignment indicative, he's still scum-aligned for vague reasons that I can handwave!

[iraonavp]

Why would I ask you if I already knew what it means?

What does "bookie" mean?

this is absolutely hilarious in the context of this http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... e#p8069245

I don't think I even learnt what bookie was from that game.

[iraonavp]

Also, forgot this:

thenewearth, given Hark's precedent on like one of the first posts of the game, why did you not claim doublevoter?

A few things in no particular order:

(R) I really am having a difficult time getting into this game. I can't read anyone for shit. Vedith was kind of a lark to wait D1 out because I hate D1 with a burning passion and hell maybe I could get something going and see what happens. I think policy lynching a miller is probably better than most of what happens on D1 and I do honestly think that post from Vedith I quoted was pretty bad; that interaction with CKD was pretty fake even if I agree with him that CKD was ultimately "wrong" in that particular interaction given that meta doesn't exist as a real predictive output of play. I also did not like Vedith's claim but I definitely could not explain to you in words what.

Unvote

(2) I also really hate making cases. Looking thru ISOs and picking out posts is super draining and I had forgotten how much I hated formatting on this site until I started messing with URL and quote tags. Trying to say anything compelling is so difficult since I feel evidence is needed for me to back up my claims rather than making unsubstantiated assertions which is frankly what I feel 80% of this game is. Not this game in particular just the game of Mafia itself. Anyway this is a digression.

($) This is the second time I am asking this: thenewearth, given Hark's precedent on like one of the first posts of the game, why did you not claim doublevoter?

(1234) In terms of lynching and deadline we are currently less than two days away from deadline, and nothing super substantive wagon-wise is showing up.

I am going to back up Spiffeh; I think this is scum DGB.

Vote: DGB

I am fully aware that this is "meta" of a kind but it's one borne of many games played together. I cannot discern a pattern to her postings; I can only assume she's trying to keep a low profile which is only something scum-DGB does. Once again, I am fully aware that this does not come even close to explaining my feelings on the subject. She plays like someone with something to hide, trying to swim on the rotation of the game's flow of wagons and, finding none, moves around to give the impression of activity. the vote on Peregrine is exactly the sort of post I would expect someone like DGB with the scum alignment to do.

Seraphim, can you explain the crumb?

[iraonavp]

And you're just deflecting like, even though the thing I'm pushing as if it's a scumslip isn't alignment indicative, he's still scum-aligned for vague reasons that I can handwave!

ive been calling you scum since yesterday

it's not "vague reasons", it's reasons i haven't talked about

I'm sure you can invent lots of nonsense that is just naturally suspicious, but if you were town-aligned you could see that there are very compelling reasons for why I am town-aligned....

[iraonavp]

even though the thing I'm pushing as if it's a scumslip isn't alignment indicative

except it is "alignment indicative" in every way it possibly could be

either you're telling the truth and you had no foreknowledge of a bookie in this setup (which would make you town) or you're lying through your teeth trying to cover up what looks to me like an obvious attempt to garner town credit

because in order for you to be telling the truth:

(1) you would have to have not read the setup, despite reading the setup in the previous game (and if you had read the setup in the previous game then you'd know the kind of important shit that gets said in the setup - like i could believe that maybe if you'd played in one of these you might have assumed same old, same old, but you haven't) and despite responding to my alice thing in a way that makes no sense even if you had read the previous setup (because you still shouldn't have had a fucking clue what i was talking about or where i was getting it all from and if you did have a clue then you should have actually checked to make sure what i was saying was relevant to the game)

(2) you would have to both not know what a bookie is (despite hard evidence in a previous game you played less than two months ago that you clearly at least knew the term even if you didn't know the role, which i don't believe but whatever, we'll leave that aside for now) and think that the one quote from me where i mentioned it was an important thing to point out and ask about (especially since if you just assumed i was calling him a VI, it doesn't make sense for you to make a big point of it over, i dunno, talking about anything else happening in the game)

I didn't read the setup... I knew it was a series of games and there was Alice in all the games from what you posted.

I did play with it before, but I have bad memory and it was a marathon game. It was important because if it meant that, you were writing him off for no reason, even though he lied about his role! Also, you did not capitalize bookie.

After all of this it's ridiculous that you are actually accusing me of... That I pretended to not know a role to try and townslip... I wouldn't do that if I was scum-aligned for exactly this reason, it can be checked!

[iraonavp]

as an addendum to point (1), i'm supposed to believe that you read all this:

Public Knowledge

There are three

Alice

s in this game. At least one of them is aligned with

Town

.
There are no 3rd party aligned roles in this game.
There is only one scum faction in this game.
Mafia member may use any ability he/she has in addition to submitting the factional night kill.
There is no daychat in this game.

Nightingale

is aligned with

Town

.
All neighborhoods (excluding any temporary neighborhoods) will be locked and become public at end of

Night 4

.
Town and Scum win conditions are public.

and thought, "maybe it's not particularly important that i know what the setup of this game is"

What?

I didn't read that, I already said!

[iraonavp]

if you were town-aligned you could see that there are very compelling reasons for why I am town-aligned....

uh-huh

yeah, sure

do go on

tell me all about these compelling reasons i should think you're town

Because I saw that curiouskarmacycle was softclaiming bodyguard because my role PM implies the existence of multiple, and I understood his request not to express town-aligned reads because all bodyguards die if they visit the same target, not just one. And, I am card like The Bulge who you guys lynched for no reason.

[iraonavp]

i didn't capitalise bookie

are you fucking shitting me

I agree, it does sound more ridiculous out of context!

[iraonavp]

zMuffinMan is extrapolating large amounts of nonsense walls from incorrect assumptions which he will retract and say that he misread, but it looks like he's right to others and he can keep his vote... By this, I mean saying that I read the setup of the previous game which I have explicitly denied reading at least three times now, and saying that I faked a townslip.

[iraonavp]

I knew it was a series of games and there was Alice in all the games from what you posted

yeah, sure, and your first thought when you read that wasn't "what's the relevance?" or "where are you getting these quotes from?" or "hey i think your point is good/shit" or anything like that

it was to claim you're not an alice

and then rather than comment on anything else happening in the next pages

to ask what a bookie was

Because everyone else was massclaiming Alice to determine them.

Nothing happened really, it was a slow time. My only strong scum-aligned read is you now...

[iraonavp]

Because I saw that curiouskarmacycle was softclaiming bodyguard because my role PM implies the existence of multiple, and I understood his request not to express town-aligned reads because all bodyguards die if they visit the same target, not just one. And, I am card like The Bulge who you guys lynched for no reason.

ah, right, and i'm supposed to believe that your role makes you town, am i?

are all bodyguards in this game town?

gee, fakegod, you're a pretty shit mod for overlooking the fact that you made a whole bunch of people innocent children in this game

Oh, I didn't think of that one...

I guess you were preparing to say that!

It makes no sense to lynch bodyguard anyway, because I can absorb the kill. So you should unvote me..

[iraonavp]

either you read the setup (in which case your actions make no sense) or you didn't (in which case your actions make no sense)

i don't give a shit

(1) relies entirely on this assumption.

Additionally, your frustration at FakeGod including unintentional innocent children in his game is noted.

[iraonavp]

Well, someone suggested it and Vedith said he was Alice. I didn't see harm in claiming it because the point of my role is being forced to die anyway...

[iraonavp]

...

Well, it wasn't a mass claim but it was no reason not to claim if it would help us solve the setup.

I did understand what you were referring to!

You specifically proposed the suggestion of a massclaim...

[iraonavp]

yeah, good work absorbing that kill last night

i have faith you'll continue absorbing them so maybe i should not vote anyone who claims bodyguard

maybe we can end up with a three bodyguard lylo and nobody votes anyone because you can all absorb a kill

I actually tried to protect you, but that was evidently a mistake!

Why are you voting me if you think I am scum-aligned bodyguard? I cannot survive to endgame regardless of my alignment.

[iraonavp]

yes, i did, and then no one followed suit (and i pretty explicitly declare "you know what, maybe i'm wrong" after vedith claimed)

but i don't see how you could possibly know what i was talking about just because you knew previous games had alices in them

It seemed obvious from the way you talked about it...

Your accusation of me being scum-aligned bodyguard is an immense reach and you know this. I am near certain that you would re-evaluate if you were town-aligned as opposed to doubling down and spamming more rhetoric about me lying...

[iraonavp]

oh and more to the fucking point, if you did know what i was talking about, then why no comment on it?

What do you expect me to say, rephrase everything you already wrote?

[iraonavp]

You know you've gone too far when you start criticizing about what I

didn't

do...

A scum-aligned bodyguard would not interact with curiouskarmacycle in that way, and you know it... If I were a scum-aligned bodyguard I would avoid revealing anything to allow more room later.

[iraonavp]

yeah because there's never been a scum bodyguard before and there's certainly no reason why fakegod would put a scum bodyguard in a game if there are multiple bodyguards in it

gee, i'm pretty dumb for thinking he would do that

all the bodyguards must be town

This sarcasm is so fake and scum-aligned because your argument is actually bad...

It means that if there is vigilante or SK I have double the chance of dying...

Still, you are deliberately omitting the possibility where I am town-aligned and get killed, to make yourself appear more town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

Now it's just a matter of time before nobody listens to zMuffinMan and then he makes a long wavery post unvoting me and everyone thinks he's town-aligned for being predatory and tunneling, when he isn't...

[iraonavp]

yeah because a scum bodyguard would never be setting up their fake-claim ever

gee, i've never seen scum crumb their role before, so maybe you have a point

You know you've gone too far when you start criticizing about what I didn't do...

what someone doesn't do when they should be doing it is a perfectly valid thing to criticise. what the fuck are you on about?

I only post if I have something to say.

Have you actually seen scum-aligned players crumb their role before? You have deliberately oversimplified something that if you looked at my ISO while town-aligned you would never vote me.

[iraonavp]

Still, you are deliberately omitting the possibility where I am town-aligned and get killed, to make yourself appear more town-aligned...

this sentence makes no sense on any level

You were talking like I already survived to LyLo and failed to die at night.

[iraonavp]

by the way, i didn't even do anything d1. i certainly didn't do anything that would warrant a town read from you. i had you as a scum read

why the fuck would you protect me n1

Because you posted a bit and I didn't want to target someone obvious because if multiple bodyguards visit the same person, they all die.

[iraonavp]

oh, yeah, i fully expect that to happen if you aren't lynched

what's your point?

That you are using it as a reason to lynch me now, it's entirely circular.

[iraonavp]

zMuffinMan does not even have any reason in mind why I would lie about my target as scum-aligned bodyguard, he's just seizing onto anything!

[iraonavp]

no it's a reason to not let you survive to lylo

i want to lynch you now because i think you're scum. your role has shitall to do with it

But you would know that is a risky idea, if you were town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

im not suggesting youre lying about your target you absolute dumbcunt

im saying your target makes no sense from the perspective youre town

So how does it make sense from the perspective of me being scum-aligned?

[iraonavp]

It's like saying to lynch a cop's innocent result before lynching the cop, no reason for it and just fake confidence...

I can easily die at night soon and you just want to make sure I don't escape and waste your kill on someone lynchable...

[iraonavp]

It's like saying to lynch a cop's innocent result before lynching the cop, no reason for it and just fake confidence...

I can easily die at night soon and you just want to make sure I don't escape and waste your kill on someone lynchable...

And this happened to me before too in your position, I pushed really hard to lynch the bodyguard because I knew I was screwed if I killed the person they protected.

[iraonavp]

So how does it make sense from the perspective of me being scum-aligned?

if you are telling the truth, your team probably picked it, not you

because you clearly don't even know what my reads were, so there's no way you actually read my posts yesterday and decided i was a priority target for you

What?

I did read your posts...

I would have made sure most that curiouskarmacycle stayed alive, but he's a card guard too and others might be protecting him.

[iraonavp]

It's like saying to lynch a cop's innocent result before lynching the cop

no it fucking isn't you absolute fucking dropkick

Yes it is! Completely unnecessary risk when you can just lynch me later.

I can easily die at night soon and you just want to make sure I don't escape and waste your kill on someone lynchable...

there is virtually 0% chance you die at night, unless seraphim neighbourises you (he fucking should) and we force him to kill you (he fucking should)

Yeah, unless I target the guy who is killed...

This is exactly what I said earlier about what you were doing, just posturing!

[iraonavp]

you're making it out as though i'm pushing you for your claim

i'm not

keep pretending that's what's going on

like you're the one who brought up the claim after i was already hard-pushing you, after i had called you scum d1, and now you're trying to pretend that me hard-pushing you is because of your role

get fucked

This simply isn't true!

I never said you were doing that...

You are just adapting to my claim to continue spamming at me even though it basically clears me as town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

you read my posts, saw my reads (you and bulge as primary suspects) and thought scum might kill me?

Yes, you were not lurking like half the game at least.

And well, they ended up killing grapes who was unreadable.

You don't seem to have nearly as much trouble thinking from my perspective as before when you were assuming that I would never redirect the kill...

[iraonavp]

you're never going to target a person who gets night-killed. i am calling it now. no matter how long you live in this game, you're never going to target a person who gets night-killed

and you'll continue to have excuses for why it didn't happen

"oh, i didn't want to protect the obvious ones the other bodyguards might do it"

"oh, i thought he was gonna die but it turned out to be this other guy"

"oh, don't lynch me, i'm just having an off game, i swear. i'm a bodyguard, i can't be scum, it's too risky to lynch me"

Exactly... That's why you're scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

Well, that was my target. This is null-aligned...

You are incapable of explaining why I would softclaim accidentally and heavily as scum-aligned because it sounds fake and scum-aligned. The only way you can say it is implicitly and sarcastically, and I have to admit that you did a good job.

Here your response is entirely sarcasm and condescension which is an inappropriate way to deal with someone you think is scum-aligned. It's reserved for someone you know is town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

like literally anyone who just opens my ISO and looks at the first 21 posts (before about 24 hours before the deadline) can see i spent the majority of d1 doing nothing

that's why i didn't make sense as a protect target

holy fuck

you did not read my posts

Who is a better choice then? Be specific.

I didn't think about it much, to be honest I just thought of a name...

[iraonavp]

even if you're probably one of the dumbest players i've ever seen next to titus, i don't think that you're dumb enough to think that scum would never soft-claim a role in the way you've done this game

They almost never would, you are just posturing. It is very risky and opens them up to many bad things.

Especially bodyguard, that is one of the most awful fakeclaims because you're supposed to die!

This is why I know that curiouskarmadog is town-aligned, too.

[iraonavp]

oh i dunno how about any of the people you actually said you thought were town-aligned?

This is literally just curiouskarmadog and Harkonnen, both of whom are too obvious...

[iraonavp]

also i don't believe it's a fake-claim

Tha t has no bearing on my argument, bodyguard is one of the worst roles to claim as scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

here's a thought. why did you feel the need so blatantly crumb your role to ckd?

Because I saw what he was doing, and wanted to make my claim more believable, and signal to him not to protect me.

If it was so blatant, why didn't you see it earlier?

What is your read on curiouskarmadog for this ignoring the obvious cop out of reading his play?

[iraonavp]

have you never seen scum claim bodyguard, iraon?

No, never to my knowledge.

I have been bodyguard before and played as scum-aligned against it.

[iraonavp]

tell me, iraon, how many days should we let a claimed bodyguard live?

You should let me live until LyLo, I will probably die before then though.

[iraonavp]

tell me, iraon, how many days should we let a claimed bodyguard live?

You should let me live until LyLo, I will probably die before then though.

Let me guess, you will make a sarcastic post yes, what an excellent idea if only I has considered this earlier!

[iraonavp]

And then in the next post wait no, I don't!

[iraonavp]

I think this is a TvT
Irao's response has been pretty good IMO, he argued with zMuffon for 5 pages and I don't think he'd have that conviction as scum
I think zMuffon is town too, but I don't think what he's pushing is correct

also (and I hate it when people say this in games, I almost always think they are scum instantly when they say this...but) I think Ira and Muffin are both town engaged in a town on town hate crime.

I'm not at all surprised to see people immediately think that tunneling means they are town-aligned...

Ira, do you really think Muffin is scum? to me it looks like he is scum hunting and probably tunneling.

Yes, I am beyond certain.

He doesn't really think I am scum-aligned, and he knows that people will think he is town-aligned if he cyberbullies me and spams sarcastic rhetoric... If he was town-aligned he would evaluate more and not make sarcastic and weak rebuttals to discredit valid points.

[iraonavp]

and for what it's worth, Irao would ABSOLUTELY have this kind of conviction as scum

So you think I am bussing?

[iraonavp]

I think this is a TvT
Irao's response has been pretty good IMO, he argued with zMuffon for 5 pages and I don't think he'd have that conviction as scum

also (and I hate it when people say this in games, I almost always think they are scum instantly when they say this...but)

I guess we're lynching SC then, huh?

and for what it's worth, Irao would ABSOLUTELY have this kind of conviction as scum

yep right after you lynch me.

nah I don't wanna

vote iroan

Why are you voting me?

I can't tell if you actually think I am scum-aligned or not...

[iraonavp]

I'm almost tempted to let Iraon live

What?

How does this make any sense, the only reason zMuffinMan is trying to lynch me now is because he is so supposedly certain that I am scum-aligned to allow me to die at night, even when I can always be lynched later if I was lying!

The only reason you would be tempted to let me live would be if you thought I was town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

Muffin, fyi, I didnt read the set up either...I only just now read it when you guys were going on and on about it....when you said "bookie" I just assumed it was some role you had run into before. Was going to look it and the Alice thing up later.

yes this is a natural reaction to what I said if you haven't read the setup; ignoring it and assuming im saying something irrelevant, not making a point about asking what the role is (especially when you already know what the role is)

I didn't ignore it, I said that I wasn't Alice so I must have read it... I didn't assume that you were saying something irrelevant, the meaning of your post was unclear and it was making me think that you were scum-aligned from the perspective that you were just accepting that he was fakeclaiming as town-aligned.

I didn't make a point of asking what the role was, I just asked because I didn't know... There isn't a less conspicuous way of doing that.

[iraonavp]

you raise a good point mr cake

i also think that if iraon were scum, he wouldn't argue back when someone calls him scum, he would just accept it and admit he's scum or something... i also think that if he were scum and thought his role would make him seem town, there's not a chance he'd argue about that either

i think your meta point about him (that you've never seen him roll scum but you can guess how differently he'd act) is also fairly strong

i may have to look elsewhere today

Exactly, you're scum-aligned...

See, there is no way that he makes those posts if he is town-aligned because it's just deflecting and so fake!

[iraonavp]

like he literally said "I'm town because I'm town" as an actual serious point

What?

No I didn't!

[iraonavp]

i don't think him calling himself town means much

i do think it's telling that when i asked him about the things i missed that supposedly made him obvious town, the only thing he pointed to was bodyguard crumbs, as though he was confident that this alone would make him seem town and there's no reason scum would ever do that

But it does make me clearly town-aligned...

There is no reason that I would do that if I was scum-aligned. It basically forces me to claim bodyguard at the start of the game.

[iraonavp]

I am torn on Iraon. I can't tell if his circular reasoning is driving me nuts or if he's actually scum. Right now, I'm leaning on "nuts" so I'm not super excited to lynch him over someone else. Muffiin is also town, fairly sure.

I'm town-aligned, and Untrod Tripod presumably took something out of context that I didn't even say... And zMuffinMan is not town-aligned, either!

[iraonavp]

I think ZMuffin is town but I'm not sure about IRA. Some posts which I think are weird:

Because I saw what he was doing, and

wanted to make my claim more believable

, and signal to him not to protect me.

I don't think this is something a town player would/should think about.

That is very superficial. Of course I don't want to be lynched...

@ira - why did you want to signal to CKD not to protect you?

Because I am just bodyguard, the point of the role is that you're supposed to die...

They almost never would, you are just posturing. It is very risky and opens them up to many bad things.

Especially bodyguard, that is one of the most awful fakeclaims because you're supposed to die!

This is why I know that curiouskarmadog is town-aligned, too.

(my bold)

I'm surprised that ira has such a firm town-read on CKD based on the evidence he's said. I agree with Muffin's point that the game would be a bit broken if the bodyguards could identify each other and they'd be confirmed town which makes me think there is a scum bodyguard in the game, or, at least, that scum had knowledge about the bodyguard situation. If that's the case, it's easy to manipulate. I would imagine that a town player would entertain that idea more seriously than blindly town-reading another player who has claimed bodyguard, which I also don't think CKD has actually done.

What?

That is dumb, zMuffinMan's argument doesn't make sense except in a vacuum... There is no way that he does that if he's scum-aligned, I'm certain. Because it just locks you into a claim, it's the same thing as when people lurk so they don't have to claim.

curiouskarmadog's play from that point was also town-aligned, but I was already convinced that he was town-aligned from his first post.

You know you've gone too far when you start criticizing about what I

didn't

do...

A scum-aligned bodyguard would not interact with curiouskarmacycle in that way, and you know it... If I were a scum-aligned bodyguard I would avoid revealing anything to allow more room later.

WIFOM

No, it isn't.

I also think the original point Muffin pointed out is quite compelling. ira asked what a bookie was AND said that he thought it was a term similar to VI but there's evidence that he's previously known what a bookie is. Like, I can agree that it's possible that he forgot what the role does exactly but I don't think it's very plausible that he forgot it's an actual role, rather than a term. Either way, I don't think it'd make sense if he'd read the setup, I think it's more likely that he didn't read the setup and asked that question for town-cred.

What?

If I didn't read the setup, why would I ask that question for "town-cred" if I didn't know that it was displayed on the first post?

The entire thing that zMuffinMan is arguing is that I read the setup, his reasoning doesn't work without it! This is complete nonsense.

How could I have forgotten what the role is if it's on my team?

There is no evidence that I knew what a bookie is, just posts where I referenced it. I even asked what it was, I don't remember anyone answering.

VOTE: iraonavp

Why are you voting me if you are "not sure" to start with? I am town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

he's saying it's a bad role to claim as scum because you're meant to die with it

the logic being something like "scum wouldn't claim a role where they have to justify being alive later on"

it makes some sense if you don't stop to think that scum who actually was given the role would probably have to claim it (or risk claiming something else with their flavour - e.g. if we suppose all cards are bodyguards, then a scum bodyguard card doesn't really have another safe claim...)

I could claim anything else, even VT, and I would be more likely to survive... Why would I softclaim bodyguard of all roles early in the game if I was scum-aligned?

You are also assuming that the scum-aligned players don't have flavor claims to prop up your flimsy argument and I don't see why that would be the case.

[iraonavp]

Irao's response has been pretty good IMO, he argued with zMuffon for 5 pages and I don't think he'd have that conviction as scum

what in the actual fuck

powerlynch this shit after iraon flips

VOTE: IRAON

After he flips town?

ya im voting iraon because I totes think he's town

I actually think you do, but that's okay because I expect you to lynch me anyway...

[iraonavp]

I think this is a TvT
Irao's response has been pretty good IMO, he argued with zMuffon for 5 pages and I don't think he'd have that conviction as scum
I think zMuffon is town too, but I don't think what he's pushing is correct

also (and I hate it when people say this in games, I almost always think they are scum instantly when they say this...but) I think Ira and Muffin are both town engaged in a town on town hate crime.

I'm not at all surprised to see people immediately think that tunneling means they are town-aligned...

Ira, do you really think Muffin is scum? to me it looks like he is scum hunting and probably tunneling.

Yes, I am beyond certain.

He doesn't really think I am scum-aligned, and he knows that people will think he is town-aligned if he cyberbullies me and spams sarcastic rhetoric... If he was town-aligned he would evaluate more and not make sarcastic and weak rebuttals to discredit valid points.

scum dont tunnel. they lie and act like they are tunneling.

I know, that's what I mean...

I dont think Muffin is scum. if I had a gun pointed to my head and I HAD to pick between the two of you, I would say you were scum. he meta-ed you...he found a game where you knew what a bookie was. SO you really dont "understand" where town would immediate tunnel on you thinking they caught you in a lie?

speaking of which.

Muffin, can you provide that game again.

Because I didn't know what a bookie was, it was just a game with a bookie in it!

[iraonavp]

you raise a good point mr cake

i also think that if iraon were scum, he wouldn't argue back when someone calls him scum, he would just accept it and admit he's scum or something... i also think that if he were scum and thought his role would make him seem town, there's not a chance he'd argue about that either

i think your meta point about him (that you've never seen him roll scum but you can guess how differently he'd act) is also fairly strong

i may have to look elsewhere today

Exactly, you're scum-aligned...

See, there is no way that he makes those posts if he is town-aligned because it's just deflecting and so fake!

this doesnt make ANY SENSE at all. how is he deflecting? who is he deflecting to? What is he delfecting? how do these post mean he is scum-aligned?

He isn't giving a straight answer to SirCakez's valid point and instead has an almost pathological need to discredit anyone who disagrees with him using fake, scum-aligned sarcasm.

[iraonavp]

and for what it's worth, Irao would ABSOLUTELY have this kind of conviction as scum

So you think I am bussing?

uhhhhhhhhhhhh who would you be bussing?

zMuffinMan, how can I have conviction as scum-aligned unless zMuffinMan is also scum-aligned?

[iraonavp]

what valid point

That I have nothing to gain from arguing with you if I'm scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

@ira - I've snipped a bit but let me know if there's something you want me to answer.

I'm surprised that ira has such a firm town-read on CKD based on the evidence he's said. I agree with Muffin's point that the game would be a bit broken if the bodyguards could identify each other and they'd be confirmed town which makes me think there is a scum bodyguard in the game, or, at least, that scum had knowledge about the bodyguard situation. If that's the case, it's easy to manipulate. I would imagine that a town player would entertain that idea more seriously than blindly town-reading another player who has claimed bodyguard, which I also don't think CKD has actually done.

What?

curiouskarmadog's play from that point was also town-aligned, but I was already convinced that he was town-aligned from his first post.

Your role PM implies that there's multiple bodyguards in the game. Do you take from that that all the bodyguards are town? If you do, do you think it's possible that scum have some way of meddling with that assumption? This also backs-up the idea that scum might fake-claim BG, if they know that it's likely to buy a town-read from other(s.)

This is the post of Muffin's:

Because I saw that curiouskarmacycle was softclaiming bodyguard because my role PM implies the existence of multiple, and I understood his request not to express town-aligned reads because all bodyguards die if they visit the same target, not just one. And, I am card like The Bulge who you guys lynched for no reason.

ah, right, and i'm supposed to believe that your role makes you town, am i?

are all bodyguards in this game town?

gee, fakegod, you're a pretty shit mod for overlooking the fact that you made a whole bunch of people innocent children in this game

My point, as well, is that I think a town bodyguard would have asked these questions as well but you don't seem to have.

I didn't care about that, it's not important. If there's scum-aligned bodyguard, they would not crumb on day 1 because it's terrible to claim even if you are that role.

I also think the original point Muffin pointed out is quite compelling. ira asked what a bookie was AND said that he thought it was a term similar to VI but there's evidence that he's previously known what a bookie is. Like, I can agree that it's possible that he forgot what the role does exactly but I don't think it's very plausible that he forgot it's an actual role, rather than a term. Either way, I don't think it'd make sense if he'd read the setup, I think it's more likely that he didn't read the setup and asked that question for town-cred.

What?

If I didn't read the setup, why would I ask that question for "town-cred" if I didn't know that it was displayed on the first post?

The entire thing that zMuffinMan is arguing is that I read the setup, his reasoning doesn't work without it! This is complete nonsense.

How could I have forgotten what the role is if it's on my team?

There is no evidence that I knew what a bookie is, just posts where I referenced it. I even asked what it was, I don't remember anyone answering.

You've said that you didn't read the set-up, so you didn't know that the bookie was public knowledge. I think you asked what a bookie was so we would think that you didn't know because you're not scum. You asked what it was, then you said you thought it was a term like VI. I think it's unlikely you would have had the conversation you had in the other game and not remember, at least, that bookie is a role.

Well, I didn't remember that obviously... That game was a marathon game which was very fast, I couldn't even remember that game really.

If I was scum-aligned, I know there's no realistic gain from faking something like that, everyone will just say it's null-aligned. I asked what it was because zMuffinMan's statement was potentially scum-aligned.

VOTE: iraonavp

Why are you voting me if you are "not sure" to start with? I am town-aligned.

I'm not sure you're town. Your replies in this conversation have made me think you're scum.

My replies in this conversation were not there when you voted me...

[iraonavp]

I think ZMuffin is town but I'm not sure about IRA. Some posts which I think are weird:

Because I saw what he was doing, and

wanted to make my claim more believable

, and signal to him not to protect me.

I don't think this is something a town player would/should think about.

i agree with this btw (shocking plot twist, i know)

iraon's whole thing about his role softing is that scum would never do it because the role is expected to die

but from town-iraon-as-a-bodyguard's point of view, why would he want to make his claim more believable. he should have expected to die long before he ever needed to claim (i know things didn't turn out that way in this game, but the point still stands). town wouldn't be concerned about making their claim more believable because, well, a town bodyguard makes their claim believable by dying for the cause

why would he need to set up something for himself later in the game?

hint: because he didn't expect to die any time soon

So I don't get mislynched... I know there is low chances of guessing who is killed.

This is presenting in a very black-and-white way, as if there is a contradiction where there is none. You are literally saying I am scum-aligned for softclaiming my role, you can't really believe that!

[iraonavp]

I know there is low chances of guessing who is killed

gee, if that were true, that sounds like it would be a decent thing for claim to scum then

Exactly, you're making it so black-and-white and you don't really believe that...

[iraonavp]

You are literally saying I am scum-aligned for softclaiming my role, you can't really believe that!

i do, actually. though not as you're presenting it. soft-claiming happens all the time. the way you did it here, though? it looks specifically like you were soft-claiming it with a specific purpose in mind; because you thought it would make you seem town

funny enough, when going over your games, i saw you'd rolled bodyguard once before

tell me, did you crumb your role in that game?

No, I did not. I know you already checked and you're being predatory.

There's only reason to crumb when I realized that there could be multiple, when I saw curiouskarmadog's crumb.

Nobody crumbs with any other purpose than making themselves look town-aligned, ever! You are making it seem like scum-aligned motivation in a very superficial and fake way...

it looks specifically like you were soft-claiming it with a specific purpose in mind; because you thought it would make you seem town

This applies equally to curiouskarmadog.

[iraonavp]

That I have nothing to gain from arguing with you if I'm scum-aligned.

right...

i'm going to ignore the fact that you've openly stated you thought people would assume "tunneling" was a town trait...

the obvious counter-point here is that if you are scum and you didn't argue back, then you'd essentially be betting whether or not you live or die on how convincing i can be while you remain quiet, which is something i doubt you'd want to do even with someone who is less likely to get their preferred lynch to happen. arguing back really is and was your only option as scum. cakez's point is utter garbage, regardless of whether or not he's right or wrong

I'm not tunneling... You are!

You are the only one who forces me to reply back, I don't enjoy talking to you because I already know that you're scum-aligned and you are just trying to make me look bad.

[iraonavp]

and for what it's worth, Irao would ABSOLUTELY have this kind of conviction as scum

So you think I am bussing?

uhhhhhhhhhhhh who would you be bussing?

zMuffinMan, how can I have conviction as scum-aligned unless zMuffinMan is also scum-aligned?

lol

What?

[iraonavp]

I didn't care about that, it's not important. If there's scum-aligned bodyguard, they would not crumb on day 1 because it's terrible to claim even if you are that role.

It's definitely important. I get your point about it being unlikely that a scum-aligned bodyguard would crumb day 1. But I'm also thinking about your blind town-read on CKD. If there's a mechanic or reason in the game for town players to read and identify each other, I would also think that there's the possibility of scum tampering with that read in some way. That makes the likelihood of scum fake-claiming, crumbing, and anything else more likely, because they know that it's going to buy a town read from another player.

I'm not saying I think this is the case with CKD, but it invalidates your point about scum not fakeclaiming bodyguard.

No it doesn't...

It's like saying that since scum-aligned players can trick you and town-aligned players can be naturally suspicious, you should never trust anyone and just vote randomly... There is a very low chance that curiouskarmadog does that if he's scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

Been keeping an eye on iraonavp's posting given the wagon on him. I don't have a solid opinion on him yet but I thought his persistent aggression towards UT and just general willingness to state and pursue reads was vaguely townish and probably newb-town. Going to read the later posts to see what this is about.

I'm not newbie, but I am town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

Hey Wingback.

I think there's something very important that you are forgetting.

I think you are forgetting that Wingback only read the first 10 pages...

[iraonavp]

so im forcing you to reply back but cakes has a "valid point" when he says you wouldn't keep replying to me if you were scum

ok

No, that is not the case.

[iraonavp]

Nobody crumbs with any other purpose than making themselves look town-aligned, ever! You are making it seem like scum-aligned motivation in a very superficial and fake way...

well, we'll ignore the fact that you're missing the entire point of what i was saying (because i already acknowledged people crumb all the time)

the point i was making was that the way you did it here specifically looked like someone trying to get town-read for it, not laying the foundation for a believable future claim

you literally said "i see your soft and think you're town for it and im the same" - this isn't crumbing for the purpose people normally crumb, this is crumbing specifically to get town-read

by comparison, ckd's crumb doesn't really do anything like that...

Yes, you're right that I did that because I wanted to look town-aligned...

What is the reason curiouskarmadog crumbed, then?

You are simply lying, it's the same reason!

[iraonavp]

You didn't explain, you just said that I was wrong.

You are not giving a response because there was no other motive in ckd's actions.

If he isn't doing it to be read as town-aligned,

why did he crumb?

You're being really evasive...

[iraonavp]

yeah i don't think you're dumb enough to conflate the idea of crumbing with doing something with the express purpose of getting town-read for it... but like i said, if someone else doesn't think there's a difference then id be happy to break it down

You still have not given a single reason how crumbing isn't designed to make yourself look town-aligned! And that's because there are no reasons!

Just all you say is "yeah i don't think you're that stupid and literally just explained yeah you're scum well yeah crumbing != trying to look town yeah"...

[iraonavp]

"credibility to claim" explicitly equals looking town-aligned.

I crumbed to add credibility to my claim.

The claim does make curiouskarmadog and therefore me town-aligned!

This is a non-standard situation but bears no difference on my motivation, it's like I say you are scum-aligned after being checked by cop for having an ugly avatar because while town-aligned players show innocent to cop, you have an ugly avatar so that changes everything...

[iraonavp]

"credibility to claim" explicitly equals looking town-aligned.

no... no, it doesn't... it just makes a claim more believable

So that they don't get lynched. Because people believe the claim. Because they think the person claiming is telling the truth and therefore town-aligned.

, which is particularly necessary for more controversial claims or claims where a person may need to leave information behind, which is why crumbing exists

Which is particularly irrelevant to what curiouskarmadog has done.

it is not for the purpose of "looking town". nobody who does it as town does it for that purpose

Why are you lying?

The claim does make curiouskarmadog and therefore me town-aligned!

but yes, this is the difference between what you did and what ckd did. you did it with this specific intent in mind, which is what i've been saying. thanks for making this easy

As did curiouskarmsdog!

[iraonavp]

i mean, the very obvious reason that you're wrong is that a town player proves they're town via their own play; they don't need to crumb their role to make people believe they're more likely town. that's a scum thought process through and through... tell me, iraon, how often in past games have you crumbed your role? if i go looking through all of your town games, should i expect to find you crumbing roles? you don't really need to answer this, by the way. like 697, i already know the answer

Yes, it happened twice befors from memory looking at the list. This is not including ongoing games...

It's impossible to prove as town-aligned by my own play, I always get lynched for being naturally suspicious.

[iraonavp]

Why are you lying?

yep, you're definitely scum

[iraonavp]

Obviously believing a claim has relevance to alignment.

If someone has crumbed their role, it's more likely they are telling the truth to go to the effort and of locking themselves into a claim early on. Therefore, they look more town-aligned...

You have more posts than me, so in fact you are filling the thread up with junk.

[iraonavp]

If I looked at your mafia discussion posts, would I find evidence to support that you hold this belief?

[iraonavp]

Obviously believing a claim has relevance to alignment.

no

it's more likely they are telling the truth to go to the effort and of locking themselves into a claim early on

no

Yes, yes.

[iraonavp]

The thread is enveloped in silence as both players scour zMuffinMan's posting history.

[iraonavp]

Okay, but there are some places where you do seem to think crumbing is alignment indicative, so you are lying... I just can't quote at the moment because I'm on mobile.

You know that you are in the minority, very sneaky and most people don't do that I am sure. Especially me, I'm not very sneaky when I'm scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

ugh...

I dont want to do this but

VOTE: dgb

I am sorry my dear, but I have a feeling you drew scum this time. hopefully we can be BFFs still after this.

But since you asked.

My role is Bodyguard.

Last night I bodyguarded you.

Players that call me scum, can die at night on their own.

If you're town... I'm leaving you wide open tonight to take the scum's bullets

It's against my wincon to help people that vote me to survive.

Look at your rolecard, what is your name, title, and role?

[iraonavp]

Okay, I am 6 of hearts.

I was a bit worried that you didn't specify compulsive, but I think you are town-aligned anyway for softclaiming.

[iraonavp]

OH HEY LOOK AT THAT

RESISTANCE TO IRAON LYNCH?
COUNTERWAGON SPRINGING UP IN ITS PLACE?

Not only are you terribly wrong on me DGB , but why do you think muffin is scum?

Yes, because people can see that I am town-aligned...

[iraonavp]

Yes, because your claim was totally town-aligned... as has been your subsequent play...

Indeed.

[iraonavp]

ugh...

I dont want to do this but

VOTE: dgb

I am sorry my dear, but I have a feeling you drew scum this time. hopefully we can be BFFs still after this.

But since you asked.

My role is Bodyguard.

Last night I bodyguarded you.

Players that call me scum, can die at night on their own.

If you're town... I'm leaving you wide open tonight to take the scum's bullets

It's against my wincon to help people that vote me to survive.

WELL WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT SHIT

What?

[iraonavp]

also the Iran Muffin continued back and forth is just noise right now..I skimmed it yes...but didnt deep dive it.

if I get a second today, I want to go check out that other game with Iran had contact with or knew about a bookie.

It was in my team, but I didn't know what it did and asked in the thread without receiving an answer.

[iraonavp]

@ira - these are the contradictions I've seen.

1. You say you didn't know what a bookie was, that you thought it was a term. Muffin finds the game that contradicts this. (I've said that I don't think it's likely you forgot it was a role at all.)

Untrue.

2. You argued that being seen as town is the only reason to soft-claim. This is contradicted by your own reasons that you gave for your softclaim.

What? Well, there was the other reason of not wanring to be protected, but that is not the main reason why and doesn't contradict my argument in a relevant way.

3. This contradiction:

Because I saw that curiouskarmacycle was softclaiming bodyguard because

my role PM implies the existence of multiple

, and I understood his request not to express town-aligned reads because all bodyguards die if they visit the same target, not just one. And, I am card like The Bulge who you guys lynched for no reason.

(my bold)

There's only reason to crumb when I realized that there could be multiple, when I saw curiouskarmadog's crumb.

That is not a contradiction.

Are you suspicious of DGB? How many bodyguards would need to come forward before you start to question that not all claimed bodyguards are town? There's three claimed bodyguards now (although I don't think ckd has explicitly confirmed) and Bulge's flip. I don't think you want to entertain that possibility because it undermines you but the fact that you're not questioning it is suspicious to me.

I can't really see any reasons for voting for me apart from UT's earlier which I responded to, so there's not much I can say.

No, I think DGB is town-aligned. There are large numbers of bodyguards just like how there were large numbers of double voters in the previous game.

[iraonavp]

Hmm I think iraon is very convincing in that muffin is scum-aligned because there is no way a town-aligned muffin derives such sadistic pleasure from having me constantly prodded by FG.

Not really, but you should vote him anyway!

[iraonavp]

What?

Why are you voting DGB for that claim?

[iraonavp]

Is she claiming your role?

I think you should really read the thread before you make a judgement though.

[iraonavp]

Okay, but is that what you think,not just something you can think? Are you bodyguard?

Seraphim might kill you, you know...

Still, how DGB claimed is not scum-aligned because there is not much time left in the day.

[iraonavp]

Okay, but is that what you think,not just something you can think? Are you bodyguard?

Seraphim might kill you, you know...

Still, how DGB claimed is not scum-aligned because there is not much time left in the day.

I can chat with seraphim about that in the pt at night

so? There were only 2 votes on her

Okay, make sure to shoot kraska, Seraphim...

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Katsuki

To avoid a no lynch.

[iraonavp]

What?

[iraonavp]

I changed my mind, not so sure kraska77 is scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion to draw and I think he just got too behind in this game and too busy to catch up, regardless of his alignment.

[iraonavp]

Katsuki, you should claim or else you will be lynched.

[iraonavp]

thenewearth, I think you are completely missing the point. I am asking that question (which zMuffinMan cannot answer by the way), to prove that zMuffinMan's argument for me being scum-aligned is nonsense and he doesn't believe it.

He says that no town-aligned player crumbs to make themselves look town-aligned, so I challenged him to give another reason why!

[iraonavp]

Look, I just disappeared from scum-aligned reads without a single word! Just trying to avoid confrontation...

[iraonavp]

What?

[iraonavp]

VOTE: zMuffinMan

Okay, I got added to the neighborhood but then Seraphim died...

[iraonavp]

uhhh :/
ira why didnt you bodyguard seraphim

Why didn't anyone else?

I didn't think he would be killed.

I guarded you thinking that he would kill you and I would die instead.

[iraonavp]

I only got added to the neighborhood only at the end of the night, if you're assuming otherwise.

[iraonavp]

thenewearth, I think you are completely missing the point. I am asking that question

Wait what? But ank was asking right?

I got confused, I actually meant FROOTLOOP, not you.

[iraonavp]

Okay, zMuffinMan is scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

Katsuki would never bus me if we were scum-aligned together...

zMuffinMan, who do you suspect now?

[iraonavp]

And I'm not PGO, I can prove that I can see the thread...

[iraonavp]

This is inconsistent with calling me for sure a scum-aligned bodyguard, and saying you believe my softclaim.

[iraonavp]

seems like an easy mislynch

Why?

i mean because i think hes scum

Why?

This makes me think that zMuffinMan is scum-aligned too. Katsuki and zMuffinMan joke a lot about being scum-aligned together and it's probably because they're trying to sow the kind of WIFOM that zMuffinMan is now invoking...

[iraonavp]

It's still against rules, you cannot talk about ongoing games even tangentially...

What if Vedith was lying? It's not fair to bring real money into the game.

[iraonavp]

This makes me think that zMuffinMan is scum-aligned too. Katsuki and zMuffinMan joke a lot about being scum-aligned together and it's probably because they're trying to sow the kind of WIFOM that zMuffinMan is now invoking...

yeeeeeeeah

because as one of the most powerful scum roles in any game, let alone this one, he would have been really concerned about "sowing WIFOM" over, oh i don't know, not actually dying

Yeah, well Katsuki always tries to sowing WIFOM...

The fact you are conscious of his role is suspicious, I didn't even consider that. Probably, you actually felt frustrated that your strongest role was being useless at some point earlier, you're projecting.

[iraonavp]

we're not talking about ongoing games

we're talking about an objective statement (that cupcake lurks as scum and is more active as town)

that statement has nothing to do with this game

and ANYONE is free to take me up on that challenge, whether it be now or after this game

because another thing i'll bet is that i've not only played more games with cupcake than anyone else here, i've also read more gmaes he's been in than anyone else here

Yes, but it is relevant to your read on Katsuki. Vedith could be lying to try and accuse you, then you put him in this position...

[iraonavp]

with brilliant statements like this, if Iran is not scum, what do you think scum would do? sort of a self fulling prophecy you are setting up for yourself.

iraon's a claimed bodyguard

how the fuck are scum going to set him up?

it's only a self-fulfilling prophecy if he never protects a single player from a night kill for as long as he lives

If there's a roleblocker, it's possible...

[iraonavp]

uhhh :/
ira why didnt you bodyguard seraphim

Why didn't anyone else?

I didn't think he would be killed.

I guarded you thinking that he would kill you and I would die instead.

work me through this line of thinking.

though now we are talking about it.

Iran...please answer this.

So I have the highest chance of dying, figured Seraphim would shoot kraska77. I'm supposed to die or else get mislhnched by zMuffinMan...

[iraonavp]

Yeah, well Katsuki always tries to sowing WIFOM...

yeah, cupcake spent the majority of the game talking to me and me alone because he his grand plan was to get lynched as a powerful role and sow wifom

if you knew half as much as you claim you do about what cupcake always does, you'd know he's never interacted with a scum buddy like he interacted with me here

Obviously his plan was not to get lynched!

I think that's untrue or true only very literally.

[iraonavp]

yeah, fakegod included a roleblocker in a game and they're going to expend it on you rather than use it for what it would have been designed for if it were added (because what mod adds a roleblocker in a game just to counter compulsive bodyguards? if there's a roleblocker, there's some fucking strong town power still left floating around)

See, I just post one sentence and then zMuffinMan goes into full Sarcasm Mode!

What I said was perfectly reasonable, this is just trying to discredit me as much as possible...

[iraonavp]

Sure, that makes perfect sense...

[iraonavp]

Town-aligned - DGB, curiouskarmadog, Vedith, FROOTLOOP, thenewearth, Ankamius
Null-aligned - kraska77, PeregrineV, SirCakez
Scum-aligned - zMuffinMan, Untrod Tripod

[iraonavp]

I'm supposed to die or else get mislhnched by zMuffinMan...

why is that?

What?

Because every time I don't die he gets more evidence to crush me, and if I die then I immediately win...

[iraonavp]

Okay, sure.

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

[iraonavp]

It's impossible for me to be scum-aligned because Katsuki used the Bookie action on me, and that's why he and zMuffinMan tried to get me mislynched...

[iraonavp]

IRAN, please answer these questions and quit ignoring them.

I'm supposed to die or else get mislhnched by zMuffinMan...

why is that?

What?

Because every time I don't die he gets more evidence to crush me, and if I die then I immediately win...

Win?

What?

address this comment.

also it is not making any sense that Iran "protected" kraska. if there was a possibility that Iran thought kraska could be scum, he would have to figure they would kill Seraphim last night to avoid losing Kraska..or at least minimize the damage.

Well, I didn't consider that, and I thought kraska was town-aligned.

Katsuki would never bus me if we were scum-aligned together...

also what is this statement based on?

Because I would ask nicely not to bus me like what happened before, and he didn't bus me...

also why did you not answer these the first time I asked them?

I was posting from my phone at a funeral so there wasn't much time to give a detailed response.

[iraonavp]

It's impossible for me to be scum-aligned because Katsuki used the Bookie action on me, and that's why he and zMuffinMan tried to get me mislynched...

my first move as a scum bookie would be to use the power on my buddy and proceed to bus the everloving fuck out of them. if the power was able to be used that way.

I guess my main point is you keep saying "this is what someone would do" but you clearly have no idea how mafia actually is played

tl;dr stfu

Okay, so I am town-aligned but clearing myself for bad reasons... Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to lynch you now.

[iraonavp]

Well, it looks like Maestro is town-aligned but not taking the game seriously.

[iraonavp]

sorry all for the quote wall, just not sure how to ask this any other way.

IRAN, please answer these questions and quit ignoring them.

I'm supposed to die or else get mislhnched by zMuffinMan...

why is that?

What?

Because every time I don't die he gets more evidence to crush me, and if I die then I immediately win...

Win?

What?

address this comment.

also it is not making any sense that Iran "protected" kraska. if there was a possibility that Iran thought kraska could be scum, he would have to figure they would kill Seraphim last night to avoid losing Kraska..or at least minimize the damage.

Well, I didn't consider that, and I thought kraska was town-aligned.

Katsuki would never bus me if we were scum-aligned together...

also what is this statement based on?

Because I would ask nicely not to bus me like what happened before, and he didn't bus me...

also why did you not answer these the first time I asked them?

I was posting from my phone at a funeral so there wasn't much time to give a detailed response.

1.) you said "Because every time I don't die he gets more evidence to crush me, and if I die then I immediately win..." What do you mean win?

It's like a minigame of trying to stop zMuffinMan from mislynching me...

2.)" Because I would ask nicely not to bus me like what happened before, and he didn't bus me..." when/where did you ask him not to bus you? I have no clue what you are saying here.

In a marathon game that we played before.

[iraonavp]

UT is giving me really mixed vibes which is frustrating me
Lynching him is OK I guess but I really want Scum Loop gone

oh this is such horseshit. I've been calling Froot Loop scummy all game. Given that he's a bigger scumread, why are you pushing on THE ONE OTHER PERSON who has really been trying to make that lynch happen?

Well, FROOTLOOP seems town-aligned...

This is a very scum-aligned post, like he expects to be read as town-aligned for accusing FROOTLOOP... Just sounds wrong.

[iraonavp]

deadline's in 3 days

can people make some choices please

Untrod Tripod is right, more votes on them please!

[iraonavp]

Not sure what that means, but zMuffinMan has given up on trying to mislynch me it looks like!

[iraonavp]

Look at zMuffinMan's posting, this quiet backing down is completely incongruent with his earlier sarcasm and fake confidence...

I bet he didn't think of that at all when voting Ankamius!

[iraonavp]

Speaking of scum-aligned behavior, Untrod Tripod and zMuffinMan are perfectly synchronous...

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Ankamius

[iraonavp]

I changed my mind, one of them is scum-aligned at least...

[iraonavp]

Okay, I'll vote you instead if you do that.

[iraonavp]

VOTE: zMuffinMan

[iraonavp]

Actually, this is L-1.

VOTE: Ankamius

[iraonavp]

Don't worry, he will just claim bodyguard or VT... It's fine to hammer.

[iraonavp]

No, I didn't hammer but you should...

[iraonavp]

No, zMuffinMan switched.

[iraonavp]

Does it matter?

I'm not sure are you trying to persecute me...

[iraonavp]

Okay.

UNVOTE: Ankamius

Because then Seraphim would try and shoot you, then I could die instead.

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

[iraonavp]

AND I'M SO INDIGNANT ABOUT IT THAT I POSTED IT TWICE

RAWR

very well then!

This is scum.

[iraonavp]

Sorry I've been lurking. I lost track of the game because of work and didn't have the time to catch up.

I still haven't caught up properly on today but I think Ank is a good choice for lynching.

VOTE: Ank

I see there's 18 hours left to deadline and I get that the lurking can be scummy. If there's any other reason to vote for me (UT, for example, has offered a reason which I think is contradicted by evidence) then I'm here now.

I think UT and CKD are town although it's frustrating that UT won't check his read on me. Otherwise, my reads are the same cos I haven't looked through today properly.

Okay, please just vote Untrod Tripod... Nobody else is getting lynched today, and we don't have much time!

Once Maestro moves his vote, your utility is for nothing.

[iraonavp]

And right when we switch from Ank to FL, he tries to throw his hands up in the air and pass on the gamestate.

CKD?

there is a bucket of shit that is wrong here.

1.) "WE switch". Who is we?

VOTE: Ankamius

not in the mood for that shit

I see one vote switch to FL that was UT.

2.) my "wtf" statement was I was confused how the guy voting Ank, decided to stop voting Ank and vote for FL (all the while asking Ank to join him on the FL wagon)...all of this happens 24 hours before the day ends...god, even as I type that out I am still like WTF.

3.) nobody really was talking about/voting FL (other than Cakes) late in this day, UNTIL I posted this.

mod prod Froot Loop

her last actual post with content was on Wed

4.) also bussing? is FL scum? I just noticed a lurker lurking, did a quick current meta to see if she was posting, and asked her to be prodded.

Exactly!

[iraonavp]

If I had to guess at least one scum is chilling there. Froot is one of them

also why the fuck aren't you voting for Froot with me if you're scumreading him? am I bussing Froot now?

No, you are not. I would've thought you could tell this from your role PM.

[iraonavp]

yeah, we can't lose with lynching between ank and froot

[iraonavp]

-_-
This still makes zero sense.
Ira what makes ark scum?

Actually, he was not. I was just saying that...

Instead, we are lynching Untrod Tripod!

[iraonavp]

Hi, Maestro!

I forgot to send an action, so the moderator used random.org to make me target Untrod Tripod...

Also, I am town-aligned because FROOTLOOP is not compulsive, while I am.

It looks like both of Ankamius and Untrod Tripod are town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

VOTE: SirCakez

[iraonavp]

Okay, zMuffinMan is scum-aligned then.

VOTE: zMuffinMan

[iraonavp]

Oh, wait... I thought he was claiming bodyguard...