Shadowrun Mafia - Game Over

[Reasonably Rational]

Firebringer, is this JaeReed push RVS, or serious? Would you make this push regardless of who held this position on D1, or are there players you wouldn't push on this basis?

Is this a JaeReed push, or a "leader day 1" push?
-Cerb

Wrong hydra! This game is Drixx and myself.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Firebringer, is this JaeReed push RVS, or serious? Would you make this push regardless of who held this position on D1, or are there players you wouldn't push on this basis?

Is this a JaeReed push, or a "leader day 1" push?
-Cerb

Leader Day 1 based on Mod Meta.
I have no read on Jaereed.

I just think varsoon likes to give all the treats to scum in beginning.

~Fire

Let's give some better background.

There have been 3 games so far with this mechanic.

In the first game, Saga Frontier the D1 leader was town, and the power they gained by being the leader was limited. They could not select a group to go with them, and they basically just gained the benefits from one adventure, in addition to a single ability, and the role with said starting role had no abilities to start.

In Space Dandy there were 3 initial party members, and the leader/captain was scum. Mechanically, being leader D1 gave scum one free roleblock, one extra vote, and the ability to have moved three slots to the other game/potentially increased the chance of their team retaining control, AND (and this is most critical) a slot on their team who captaincy would always default back to in the event that they killed the captain-elect+had killed all intervening captains. This was a fairly major mechanical advantage, allowing scum to guarantee endgame scenarios where they had control of the ship.

In Bloodborne, scum were the initial leader, AND they had full control over the membership of said party. This was easily the most power the position offered to the scum team, allowing them the ability to have potentially put the game into a quicklynching situation on D3 In a 20+ player game, had they aimed to maximize power.

So, with all that said..the likelihood of scum JaeReed based on mod meta, is purely going to be based on the mechanical interactions within this game. We must also account for the fact that Titus also worked on this game, so it won't be solely Varsoon's influence showing here.

Basically, your meta argument is crap, we don't have enough information.

-Cerb

@cowboy: I fucking wish. I wanted infiltrator to be obvscum role name that I could argue was too obviously scummy to be scum. :p

[Reasonably Rational]

Basically, your meta argument is crap, we don't have enough information.

Can i quote this and shove it down your throat if Jaereed turns up to be scum?

You can certainly try, but whether or not he's scum has no bearing on the strength of your argument. Those are two wholly separate things. You may have very well come to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Jaereed: consider appropriate skill sets for jobs. Obviously towniness comes first, but if you're torn between multiple town options, determine composition based on whose role name sounds like they would be good at whatever the job in question is.

FB: I'm not actually outright rejecting your hypothesis. I'm saying we lack the necessary information to logically arrive at that conclusion, that is all.

ABR: The mod meta push thing is SUPER weird from FB, but I do agree with the general idea that there's no scum benefit to pushing the D1 party leader. Even if they WERE scum distancing as someone suggested, it would basically be them creating an excuse to not give their team the opportunity to gain more resources/interfere with town missions.

Not so sure I buy the D&D thing though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lilith and I haven't discussed any reads yet besides both agreeing that ABR probably has a grudge against us

Randomidget is always against me, Cerb is vocally against me thinking I am a bad person, you are a friendly dude SirCakez, I fully like and enjoy playing with you and you are a great guy. Your hydra is completely fine, you guys are fine. I just think you're scum.

See space cowboys quote below for a more accurate expression of my thoughts about you ABR.

You aren't a bad person... You can just be, eh, difficult to deal with.

Regarding the adventures, bloodbornes Chalice dungeneons were explicitly announced to be damaging to those who attempted them. Saga Frontiers quests were not. I'm inclined to believe this game is somewhere in the middle, and wholly dependent upon die rolls. They can be all positive without failures, or they can be terrible if you end up with glitches or critical glitches.

Whether you attempt 2 runs or not should be dependent upon your ability to identify sufficient town players to create two teams with enough members to succeed. If you can't get strong enough town reads, or enough of them, do not attempt two.

Speaking of which. I recommend not rushing this day and instead giving JaeReed optimum time to gather reads on people amd make their decisions about how to proceed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, also, I don't believe AtE would be scum!cakez first response to a push on his slot, but I'm sure he's capable of doing it. Its not a town tell.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mathblade: all that noise was in response to FB's assertion that he could use mod meta to determine alignments at this point, and if you actually read the post(you did, right?) you should have noted that at the end I told him that the point of that whole wall of text was to demonstrate that we didn't have enough information for his hypothesis to be of much use as an argument regarding someone's alignment.

Also, generally speaking, I'm really not concerned with helping people read me. I don't care how you read me, I just care that when I find scum and prove that x must be scum for y reasons, the town falls in line.

(DS, I believe *this* particular brand of arrogance here is what some people were talking about when they were talking about me being an ass or something. You defended me, but, well, I AM sort of an asshole...but I'm not a jerk. )

Anyways, you are right in your assertion that all my posts so far have been pretty useless in terms of, well, figuring anything alignment related out. I'm sure it will all become clear shortly though.

Jaereed: I'm very precise in the verbiage used in my posts(when I'm at a computer, at least). I *specifically* used the words "You can certainly try" because I knew I was just about to point out why any attempt to "shove it down" my throat would be doomed to failure. I originally had the post saying "Sure, but..", and chose to change it to "You can certainly try" specifically to make it clear that I didn't agree with the conclusion that if JaeReed was scum, it meant Grovyle's logic was sound. Also, I DO clearly entertain the idea of you being scum, I just refuse to entertain the idea that groyvle's logic is a good reason to think you are.

Point being, don't expect to actually be able to determine anything alignment related from me by virtue of semantics, as either alignment I'm generally very careful about the exact words I use.

-Cerb

pedit: Oh. JaeReed apparently noticed that his observation wasn't correct.

Sorry.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

guys, we must put jaereed in a jail cell, in order to protect the shadowrunners!
Also if we have someone who can execute the treestumps, like a jailor who can also release or something.
They should instant execute jaereed.

VOTE: Grovyle

We have no way of knowing what happens in jail and you want to just randomly put the person in charge of missions in there? And how do you know if they are/are not tree stumps? For all we know they could be completely separate. In Shadowrun lore prison was really bad for a runner and they sure as hell couldn't communicate.

I read that as him trying to make his wagon on me seem like a definite threat to me. I didn't think it was a serious call, tbh. Just like how he calls for speedlynching.

See, that's why I actually specifically asked him whether or not the push was just RVS or if it was real. So you believe that he wanted to put pressure on your slot for whatever reason, but that he never sincerely believed in the whole mod meta argument?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This game started up quick. Reading...

@cakez head of D&D: Mundane? How so? I would think you of all people would know my early game play is fairly fluffy (with Bloodborne being the exception thar proves the rule, since I was both hydraing with Elbirn AND actively attempting to be townread cause I wanted to be hunt master)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mathblade: I forgot to respond to you earlier, but know, I do not have any x must be y for z reasons to suggest at this point, other than agreeing with ABRs point about the lack of scum motivation for Groyvles push on JaeReed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mathblade: I forgot to respond to you earlier, but NO, I do not have any x must be y for z reasons to suggest at this point, other than agreeing with ABRs point about the lack of scum motivation for Groyvles push on JaeReed.

-Cerb

EBWOP.

Couldn't let that autocorrect mistake stand. Work, btw, so I'll be around in a few hours most likely.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ok, Jae, I've done some thinking about the first mission you should do.

I'd suggest doing the scout mission first (seems much more low-risk at the start). A good party mix would be Face, Decker, and Drug Dealer. You'd have at least 1 person maxing perception (great for scouting), one each for magic and matrix, and logic. That sounds like the best mix you have (additionally, starting with a low number is good in case we find some really bad failstate first mission)

First of all, I find it incredibly off putting that you're deliberately separating roles from the players who possess them. The first priority is ensuring town go on the runs, and someone's towniness is not something which can be determined by their role name.

Secondly, your position doesn't even make sense, with regards to the drug dealer at least. If you're making this decision on the basis of role alone, WHY would you bring the drug dealer over the infiltrator or sniper, both of whom have exceptional stealth AND perception, or even over the bounty hunter or occult investigator, who, by role flavor, seem well suited to a scouting mission?

Whatever reason could you possibly have for wanting Koggz in particular on the run?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ensuring only town go on runs is important for three main reasons.

1) The risk of power/rewards from missions ending up in the hands of scum.
2) The possibility that scum may somehow sabotage runs and thus deny power to town.
3) Assuming these runs are handled as in prior games adventures, there will be PTs involved, and those PTs represent an opportunity to share information out of the view of scum. However, I noticed right now that there is no mention of PTs in the rules post detailing the ruless for party selection. If there are no PTS for this, I'm uncertain how it's meant to function, but in that case this concern obviously doesn't apply.

@mod: Will the crews selected for missions have PTs to communicate in? If so, how long will those PTs last?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, general notice here: anyone with any sort of negative utility aspects to your role, such that targeting you is bad, please make sure you claim it ASAP. I will be very upset with anyone attempting to claim ascetic/miller/pgo/some variant thereof after today.

I had something else to say, but it's completely left my mind.

-Cerb

Pedit: Karnos, there are more town than scum. It is almost certain that an all town composition can be created to deal with ANY mission in this game. Prioritizing certain success over denying scum power is very dumb.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

2) The possibility that scum may somehow sabotage runs and thus deny power to town.

Here is the irony: you & Space Cowboy could be doing just this, right now. Suggesting we only send the most confirmed characters at the expense of optimizing the mission group essential means sabotaging our chances of successful missions.

...

Please go read my ISO. Particularly the posts where I advise JaeReed regarding whether they should go on two runs or just one.

Then remove your head from your ass.

Then come talk to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Karnos, Scum can collect whatever benefits the mission offers. Enough to offset the same benefits gained by Town.

IME, town with a bunch of power roles is a lot stronger than sucm with extra power roles.

I recently played the "Stack the Deck" setup, which is a setup with pre-game where scum can pick extra powers, but for each power they pick town gets another PR. Scum picked exactly 0 powers, and won nicely. At the end of the game there was a bit of discussion about it, and pretty much everyone agreed that it's not worth picking anything because the risk of giving town an extra PR is much greater than the gain of an extra scum power.

Why do you think the opposite is true here?

Regardless, this whole tangent has gotten pretty far off from my original thought. I'd agree if we knew exactly who was scum, don't send them on serious missions, but historically mafiascum.net games are pretty fucking awful at finding scum on day 1. It's show less than a 50% success rate out of my past games, which means excluding "scum" from a mission today you are just as likely to be excluding a town player. It's fake strategy, something a scum suggests that might sound good but realistically can't be acted upon.

In my experience, people are quite good at identifying town, which is a very different skill from identifying scum.

That's the key here. There are generally a good number of fairly obvtown slots in the game, that establish themselves early on. Yes, sometimes scum manages to get themselves into a universally townread position, but it's FAR more likely that you'll end up with an all town composition than that you'll end up with an all town+super townread scum comp.

Within the pool of people who don't obvtown themselves though, yes, town has a very hard time identifying the scum slots.

Anyways, you're wasting time with a ridiculous position on a wholly tangential matter. Please shut up and stop. Tall about something that matters.

-Cerb

Pedit: All his posting shows is that he's misguided. There is nothing alignment indicative in any of this.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and I forgot to mention this, but any and all power gained by Town becomes significantly less helpful when scum know who has access to that power...which is what happens when scum go on missions.

In the scenario you were talking about, the problem was that you wouldn't know who on town would end up with these potentail threatening PRs, and possibly didn't even know what the PRs would be. Here, you know player x has these benefits, and you know to handle them appropriately.

Anyways, my point about wanting us to move on from this discussion still holds, I just had a relevant thought to share.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Haven't caught up. Did Cerb and Drixx wish me happy birthday? That's all that matters.

Ilu ABR and totally meant to but didn't yet so Happy Birthday! Even though the value of it has been diminished by the fact that you specifically called us out for not doing so already, I do mean it sincerely and wish you the best for your entire birthday year!

Yume: I can't? It's up to JarReed, but it's a matter of him identifying the most town slots in the game. It's difficult to do so when the game is, thus far, mostly setup speculation though. we need to move past all this.

For the record, even the broken combination DS is talking about had counters, in the form of a strongman kill available via long adventure paths, and a passive power neutralizer available via short adventure paths.

His caution is reasonable, but his example isn't nearly as catastrophic as he makes it sound.

Also, DS, I only used my power twice in that game, and technically I had to remove far more specific slots from the game than town did in order to win. Your point is taken though, the role was awesome.

Yume, is there anyone you're town reading at this point, and do you have any reason for those reads?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

D&D, why have you disappeared? Please come back and say things so I can decide if I should sheep ABR.

Individuals with default acess to PTs, that is, Yume, PV, ABR in the Astral, and Random, Detective Moonlight, and whoever ends up taking over the Nahdia slot in the Matrix...thoughts on one another?

Everyone, thoughts on likelihood of scum within those separate groupings?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Koggz, use your words please.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Random,can we please get D1 of Bloodborne you in here? I liked seeing you at least try to be more involved, aND the game so far is way too slow for my tastes, not enough content being generated at all.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Quoting a post from them is just as bad as a naked vote. Actually, it's worse, because it means you see something wrong with the post, but are refusing to be transparent in your thought process.

Please point out what it is about that post in particular that prompted to vote, as well as any other reasons you have for believing they are scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Quoting a post from them is just as bad as a naked vote. Actually, it's worse, because it means you see something wrong with the post, but are refusing to be transparent in your thought process.

Please point out what it is about that post in particular that prompted to vote, as well as any other reasons you have for believing they are scum.

-Cerb

really really

Really really.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay koggz, so do you think they're scum for calling the push bad, or do you think they're misrepresenting how hard karnos was pushing for their lynch, or do you think they're misrepresenting the reason why karnos is pushing them? Or some other reason?

-Cerb

Pedit: I ONLY make pushes early game when people do egregious things. Like, massive contradictions. Nothing of that sort has happened in this game, people just aren't talking.

Peditx2: Dunno. I REALLY didn't like the earlier post Space Cowboy made regarding team composition, the one where they basically subtly tried to suggest you should be on a scouting mission without actually having any good reasons behind it, but they've been find beyond that. karnos is annoying and contrary and being really dumb about a basic tenet of any sort of game (that is deny power to your enemies), but they're not being scummy.

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay koggz, so do you think they're scum for calling the push bad, or do you think they're misrepresenting how hard karnos was pushing for their lynch, or do you think they're misrepresenting the reason why karnos is pushing them? Or some other reason?

-Cerb

Pedit: I ONLY make pushes early game when people do egregious things. Like, massive contradictions. Nothing of that sort has happened in this game, people just aren't talking.

Peditx2: Dunno. I REALLY didn't like the earlier post Space Cowboy made regarding team composition, the one where they basically subtly tried to suggest you should be on a scouting mission without actually having any good reasons behind it, but they've been find beyond that. karnos is annoying and contrary and being really dumb about a basic tenet of any sort of game (that is deny power to your enemies), but they're not being scummy.

I said that without knowing who had which ability. I was just looking at the stats chart.

I understand that's what you claim, but the other possibility seems just as likely to me.

Everyone, thoughts on likelihood of scum within those separate groupings?

-Cerb

I'd say it's safe to assume there's a scum in both groups.

koggz think this approach is flawed
unless alignment not chosen randomly

Alignment was not chosen randomly. Each role we drafted had an alignment attached to it.

[quote="In post 460, Reasonably Rational]or do you think they're misrepresenting how hard karnos was pushing for their lynch, or do you think they're misrepresenting the reason why karnos is pushing them? Or some other reason?

-Cerb

yes
they do not feel genuine
something is off[/quote]

Okay. I'll accept that, imprecise though it may be. Thank you. That's much more useful than just the quote alone.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

koggz vote on space cowboy not naked and not because think they town

VOTE: Koggz

I think this is my biggest scum read so far. I can't really tell. Maybe pressure will help though.

-hebi

Are you caught up? I challenge her on this, and her response isn't terrible, though she DOES tend to just sorta use my words more than her own. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

koggz nominate firebringer for lieutenant

Alignment was not chosen randomly. Each role we drafted had an alignment attached to it.

schrodinger mislynch is this true?

koggz vote on space cowboy not naked and not because think they town

VOTE: Koggz

I think this is my biggest scum read so far. I can't really tell. Maybe pressure will help though.

-hebi

pressure might get to koggz scum
koggz town not care

Koggs, this is from the OP of the signup thread. It is NOT in the rules within the game thread, as far as I noticed.

Welcome to the Shadowrun Mafia. This game is about a war between the Shadowrunners attempting to overtake, Aztechnology. Aztechnology has run Lousiana's economic sphere and used the populace to engage in economic war, not caring about the human lives or the cost. There is no corporate accountability for executives, nor is there any ever expected. A few signs of an uprising have started to appear, such as graffiti encouraging fighting Azzis, have started to appear on Aztechnology buildings. Seizing upon this trend of populist uprising, a silent bidder (Mr. Johnson) has sent out a call for the best and brightest shadowrunners (runners for short) to try and take out Aztechnology. Mr. Johnson has sent a figurehead to deal with a randomly selected runner to give them the available missions in the landscape. To take down Aztechnology, the runners must bypass Lone Star. Lone Star, while technically a private entity, are a crew of bodyguards to the highest bidders. This makes Lone Star corporate police.
Given this is a game based on Shadowrun, there are a few mechanics that players should be aware of.

• Smalltown Mafia with a draft - All the flavor names and partial role mechanics will be revealed and selected from at the start at the pregame.
  Certain roles are determined to be scum.
  Players will receive their full role after drafting.
  
• Runs - Runners can go onto missions to generate rewards. The crews are assembled by the Party Leader and have 3-5 runners. The rewards are predetermined. Runs can be failed.
  
• Who goes on adventure? - There are limiting mechanics in place to ensure that the same players don't adventure repeatedly.
  
• Mr. Johnson and the Party Leader - Mr. Johnson is controlled by game mechanics. Mr. Johnson selects the Party Leader. The same player cannot be the Party Leader two days in a row. The Party Leader can be nightkilled or lynched normally. Being Party Leader offers no protection from death. There may or may not be other restrictions on Mr. Johnson.
  
• Role of Chance - Adventures are run by rolling 6 sided dies to perform specific tasks, just like Shadowrun. Players may impact the chances for each side to win a run. This setup will also be somewhat swingy.
  
• Neighborhoods - This is a very neighborhood heavy game. If you don't like neighborhoods, this is not the game for you.

Also, thanks Koggz! It feels good to be unreadable.

Also, it sorta depends on what your drugs do. There are certain parties who, by role name, should probably be considered likely to be more more in need of additional assistance, if your drugs can provide such. You might want to focus on assisting those slots, IF you town read them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eyyyy I got another strong townread. This time of the "holy crap you voiced what I thought" variety.

Math, what's your opinion on Klingon's vote on you?

Oh? Did I miss you mentioning other strong townreads prior to this?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eyyyy I got another strong townread. This time of the "holy crap you voiced what I thought" variety.

Math, what's your opinion on Klingon's vote on you?

Oh? Did I miss you mentioning other strong townreads prior to this?

-Cerb

Probably not, tbh. I'm not sure I posted them in the thread.

I do think most of them are kinda obvious, though?

That really doesn't work for me. I need explicit statements with reasons given. I'll pick up on less straightforward read hints whenever I get around to ISOing people, but prior to that lack of stated reads equals lack of reads period as far as I'm concerned.

-Cerb

Stupid slip.

Also, to be perfectly honest, town reads are super ephemeral. How exactly is someone else supposed to pick up on who your town reads are if you don't spell it out? Scum reads sure, you'll push them, but...town reads? You ask them questions and discuss things with them, which is the second thing you'd do with slots you're still trying to figure out, or, if you're me, with scumread slots you're trying to extract information and associatives from.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For me, you'd look at who I'm defending.
I just checked in my ISO and I have definitely stated most of my strong townreads. Given reasons for some, not for others.

Touche. Defense is a valid indicator of a townread, though I'd argue that nobody has been attacked enough to justify a defense at this point.

And...you're going to make me read your ISO aren't you? so much easier for me if you just........say the reads. In one nice little post. :/

Firebringer read list:

Town: ABR, Yume
Leaning Town: Jaereed
Null: Everyone Not Listed
Leaning Scum: Cowboy
Hoping Is Scum: Mathblade

~Fire

How can you not have a read on me FB?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, I definitely don't give alignment tells, I go out of my way to obfuscate it generally, but you...I do believe you've historically developed reads on me at a reasonable pace. Maybe I'm misremembering? Or maybe I'm just remembering games where you were scum and were thus able to make a determination off less evidence. Hmm.

Like I said earlier, Bloodborne was an exception. Only game ever where I've actively tried to be townread, and it was only because my role wanted to clearly gain loads of power to force wasted nks from scum. So yeah, idk, maybe I'm just remembering bloodborne too. :/

I'm going to sleep, but I wanna ask you about your reads so like, look at them and pretend you're me, and answer whatever questions I'd have, like...if any of the reads just came out of nowhere. Thanks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How can you not have a read on me FB?

Probably because everything you have done and said I expect out of you from any alignment.
So you are not one I think gives good tells on your alignments.

Though in Bloodborne I distinctly remember having you as strong town from day 1.

~Fire

This may have partly been due to an obv town role related interaction between me and him.

Firebringer read list:

Town: ABR, Yume
Leaning Town: Jaereed
Null: Everyone Not Listed
Leaning Scum: Cowboy
Hoping Is Scum: Mathblade

~Fire

Update

Leaning Town: Jaereed, Randomidget, Klingoncelt, and Karnos
Leaning Scum: Worldz, Cowboy, Daenarys

I agree with this except on karnos and D&D (no read on D&D slight scum lean on karnos)

That's true, there were actually two unique interactions on D1 in that game, one being the role related one with you, and the other being the masons claiming to me by referencing a conversation I had in hydra with wgeurts before. Both of those things played out in very obvious ways that showed the game *something* was happening.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Koggz: it's pretty simple. I do it all the time, though usually it's by deliberately acting in a fashion that doesn't make town like me. Basically, if you're a good late game player, and good at avoiding being mislynched, it's valuable to make yourself appear to be a potential mislynch, so that way scum don't consider shooting you.

Obviously this means it's harder for you to get town to listen to you late game, but if you're confident in the strength of the sort of cases you usually bring, that's not a problem.

That wasnt a very useful scumhunting inquiry though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I had a big multiquote then it disappeared somehow q.q
I'll just put my thoughts here

RR - at the time of your comment that said "I only make early pushes when there's massive contradictions but no one is talking" there were nearly 20 pages. How is that "no one talking"?

I didn't mind Grovyle's Koggz's vote but Space Cowboy following them on it was really awful.
Koggz is a town lean for me
Also lean town on PV
-dragons

15 pages would be more accurate, and the majority of that was groyle and space cowboy, with a bit of JaeReed and myself, and it was largely setup and mechanic discussion.

So yes, that is no one talking.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

the reason koggz ask is because the avoiding nk scenario no longer make sense after spacecowboy claim the playstyle results in quickly becoming entirely townread

You know, that's a valid point...my style is meant to keep me as a "mislynch" until mid-late game.

BUT again, a discussion about the way DA views his play styles effects isn't really relevant to anything, I don't believe...unless you have something to say about why this matters?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For me, you'd look at who I'm defending.
I just checked in my ISO and I have definitely stated most of my strong townreads. Given reasons for some, not for others.

Touche. Defense is a valid indicator of a townread, though I'd argue that nobody has been attacked enough to justify a defense at this point.

And...you're going to make me read your ISO aren't you? so much easier for me if you just........say the reads. In one nice little post. :/

I've still defended people.

I won't rank my townreads. I'll list them in order of how much information I feel I've given as to my reasonings for why they're townreads, though.

Grovyle, D&D, Math, ABR, RR

Thank you! Much obliged, etc, etc. I do believe I haven't seen any mention of me at all, other than your misunderstanding of my earlier post, so that read is basically wholly unsubstantiated at this point right?

Matrix, peeps, now that you are talking to one another...................please respond to my earlier question regarding your mutual reads on one another, and your thoughts on the likelihood of scum within the preexisting PT's.

Which, BTW, almost nobody else has answered, and I think it's sorta important.

Also, so I grabbed up all the various stats and added them up, to see how many total points exist among all roles for certain stats, and how many points each role received. Contrary to my expectations, there is a clear weak outlier in total stats in the Technomancer slot(detective midnight) at 33 total points, and weaker slots in the Rigger(Mcmenno) and Drug Dealer(Koggz) slots, at 35. Everyone else has 36, 37, or 38 points. In the different stats, logic is SUPER common with 81 total, and stealth/matrix are both relatively rare, at 59 apiece(the average is 68.8).

I don't know if any of that is helpful in any way, nothing jumps out at me immediately, but there it is. My thought going into it was that there has to be a decent all town composition for solving missions that require lots of <insert rare stat here>, so stealth or matrix, but then I realized that it's also possible that the mod simply adjusted the difficult of such tasks so they're just as difficult as the tasks which require more common stats...so I can't just go oh, there we go, 4 highest stealth slots are probably town, etc.

So, yeah. :-/ I got nothing. I might go figure out the min/max team compositions for each stat and figure out how many successes they'd roll on average, as well as the "average" composition and see what sort of rolls they'd get, to give us some idea of how many dice we'll need in given stats for a mission, if that's ever relevant, but...I might not, because again, having the stats is sorta less important to me than having the right players on the missions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also PeregrineV's lurkiness is a problem. They lurk a fuck ton as scum. This needs lots of poking. Same with KilingonCelt. Lots of lurkiness. Hell the MOD has more posts than people. This game feels lurktastic yet there is a lot of posting but from the same few voices.

I need more poking sticks and rope.

MathBlade is Scum.

They wouldn't be so concerned with PereV's and my standard NAI gameplay otherwise.

VOTE: MathBlade

It is AI here. However your responses after my push likely make you town. As town when you lurk and post you do try to sneak in periods when people are online. As scum it is a lot less. And as town you inexplicably scumread me a lot. I still remember the USMafia games maaaaan.

By calling out lurkers I can then see how they respond if at all to being called a lurker. You're wrong on me being scum but I think you are town for it.

Except that I don't lurk.

Ever.

As any alignment.

You are lying.

..

You are a low content player. Always.

You are rarely around, and you do not post very much when you are around. Always.

These are not necessarily bad things, but they are things lurkers do. Just because you are not attempting to lurk, it does not mean that your play isn't analogous to that of lurkers.

Why are you so offended by someone choosing to use a shorthand for describing your play style?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

JaeReed: Have you made your decisions regarding the mission(s)? I don't want details about your choices, I just want to know whether or not I should yell at people who attempt to end the day.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR there are like 5 posts in the matrix pt. So far i nullread the ppl in there
But i kinda dislike the way you implied that we are most likely a good PR because of low stats. If you want just openly ask scum to kill us?
Im not going to say if we have a lot of power or not for obvious reasons, but did it ever cross your mind that we have low stats because we have rasther rare stats? Maybe the combination of our stats is needed often? There are so many possibilities, why point out that single one that is not good for us?

I didn't imply anything. I noted the data ( as I'm sure *someone* on the scum team was smart enough to do already) and shared the numbers, very deliberately avoiding mentioning the obvious possibility that your role has powers to make up for the low stats.

It was Space Cowboy who came along and actually pointed out that possibility while ignoring all others (such as the fact that your role may have some unique utility on missions, or some other effect that makes up for the low stats).

Why did you believe I was the one who noted that? Do you still dislike that it was mentioned, regardless of who actually brought it up?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I had a big multiquote then it disappeared somehow q.q
I'll just put my thoughts here

RR - at the time of your comment that said "I only make early pushes when there's massive contradictions but no one is talking" there were nearly 20 pages. How is that "no one talking"?

I didn't mind Grovyle's Koggz's vote but Space Cowboy following them on it was really awful.
Koggz is a town lean for me
Also lean town on PV
-dragons

15 pages would be more accurate, and the majority of that was groyle and space cowboy, with a bit of JaeReed and myself, and it was largely setup and mechanic discussion.

So yes, that is no one talking.

-Cerb

And you townread everyone who was posting during that time?

-dragons

@Mathblade: I forgot to respond to you earlier, but know, I do not have any x must be y for z reasons to suggest at this point, other than agreeing with ABRs point about the lack of scum motivation for Groyvles push on JaeReed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay i apologise, i thought it was part of your analysis, but that wasnt you...
Of course i dislike it regardless of who mentioned it. Why would it make any difference?

Thank you sir numbers. Interesting the spread of numbers, but that was probably dangerous to do, as it's a safe assumption that the low stats roles make up for their stats in other abilities... So, if you've got a protective role, DM, Mcmenno, and Koggz are probably good ideas for a target, statisticswise. However, that's to say nothing about your reads on them, which should always be paramount. But if you townread them, and you've got a protective role, then they're likely a good choice.

Same question i asked to RR. Why?

-S

It *shouldn't* make a difference, but it's very possible you have different expectations from different players. There are some people who I'm more inclined to forgive nonsensical posting from, simply because I've played with them and I know it's NAI, while there are others where doing so would be very out of character.

It's also possible that you've established a read of some sort either of the slots involved, and this read is coloring your perception of their posting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR there are like 5 posts in the matrix pt. So far i nullread the ppl in there
But i kinda dislike the way you implied that we are most likely a good PR because of low stats. If you want just openly ask scum to kill us?
Im not going to say if we have a lot of power or not for obvious reasons, but did it ever cross your mind that we have low stats because we have rasther rare stats? Maybe the combination of our stats is needed often? There are so many possibilities, why point out that single one that is not good for us?

I didn't imply anything. I noted the data ( as I'm sure *someone* on the scum team was smart enough to do already) and shared the numbers, very deliberately avoiding mentioning the obvious possibility that your role has powers to make up for the low stats.

It was Space Cowboy who came along and actually pointed out that possibility while ignoring all others (such as the fact that your role may have some unique utility on missions, or some other effect that makes up for the low stats).

Why did you believe I was the one who noted that? Do you still dislike that it was mentioned, regardless of who actually brought it up?

-Cerb

Why are you assuming scum are data driven? And furthermore why mention the lower stats people at all? It is like you are assuming scum would do things like you. Reminds me of what got told to me a lot in the Yuri game and what I am working on fixing. Furthermore I find it weird you are okay with mechanics decisions yet post scum are trying to do data calculations to find PRs. If they were doing such a thing mechanics spec helps them which is why I tried to keep the game focused on Mafia rather than setup spec because scum can't hide there.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww.

I'm not assuming scum are data driven, it's just the absolute simplest thing in the world to do and there is literally no reason to not do it. I always assume scum are competent, and any competent team would at least do this much, while many town players *wouldn't*.

I don't understand your sentence about me being "okay with mechanics decisions but post scum are trying to do data calculations to find PRs". I didn't say that? You're putting a shit load of spin on your interpretation of my post. What do you mean by "okay with mechanics decisions?" Did you mean mechanics discussions?

ALSO sharing publicly available information with the rest of town so as to allow them to take that information into account helps to prevent the widening of the knowledge gap between factions. If scum go to this effort, and town dont, it just means scum know EVEN MORE than town did. If both go to the effort, status quo is maintained. If JUST town do it, and scum didn't think to (for some reason, for the record, if after this game I go to the scum PT and see you didn't think to do this much I'm going to mock every member of that team mercilessly), then again, the status quo is maintained. Discussing those stats prevents the worst case scenario.

Actually, the more I think about this, the less I like the fact that you outright lied about what I stated. I never said scum were doing calculations to find PRs. Why did you say that?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@dm: I don't believe it was a nonsensical comment to make either, I was merely giving an example of a reason why a post might be concerning coming from one slot while being unremarkable coming from another.

Walk me through the "no clue about cowboy". He's easily one of the slots with the most actual content to go off of.

Also, your catchup post didn't register for me at all. As in, there was nothing stated in it that made me want to ask you specific questions on the first read.
@Mathblade: Koggz is a she, and the third person thing is standard posting for her. Seconding the question about the selective mechanics discussion. Also, I already asked KC why she cared about your opinion, and she didn't bother answering.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

From that post -- I noted the data ( as I'm sure *someone* on the scum team was smart enough to do already

Yes you said that scum were doing calculations.
And scum don't have to find town. So why the hell else would they do calculations?

Thirdly why the hell do you put me as scum as a townread of yours.
You said and I quote "if after this game I go to the scum PT and see you didn't think to do this".
Guess what genius I am not in the scum PT and trying to suggest that is all kinds of bad.

Mafia is a game of reading people. I use numbers to supplement but not make my case. Posting certain things only hurts people regardless of how easy it is to do. I could use my math degree and post a shit ton of things and write a program to do a lot of things. however I find the more numbers talk the less engaged people can be.

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Pedit: KlingonCelt as they said have many different things to do in meat world at times. I asked again specifically to see if a certain response comes up. But now that you mentioned ignoring it is invalid. *sigh*

No, I said they were surely NOTING THE DATA. You put SEVERAL words in my mouth. Don't do that. Scum could easily want said data so they can utilize it to determine just how many and which town slots they need to bring with them if/when they get the chance to be party leader. I also find it *quite* likely that in a game like this the majority of, if not all, of the slots are power roles...which means the entire argument that scum are doing so in order to identify them is incredibly stupid. In addition, when I said the whole scum PT thing, the YOU in there wasn't referring to ANY slot in particular, but to the scum team as a whole. Note how I say "...you didn't think to do this much, I'm going to mock every member of that team mercilessly", where the YOU in that statement is clearly referring to those individuals who I stated I'm going to mock. I was absolutely not suggesting that you're in the scum PT. I don't do "shade casting" or subtle bullshit, I fucking tell people when someone is doing scummy things, and I clearly outline why those things are scummy and why they should die.

I believe we're simply going to have to disagree on the theory level about the value of gathering incredibly obvious data and telling the town about it.

@DM: Questioning anyone is okay. Why wouldn't it be? It would only be not okay had you established a town read on them and been vocal about it, and then ended up attacking them for little to no cause afterwards.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Actually, wtf are you saying about me putting you "as scum as a townread of mine"?

I haven't stated ANY fucking reads, other than the groyvle thing? Where the fuck did that come from?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I believe that's L-2.

I believe this is the point where I yell at people a bit to slow down etc.

That is all.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You responded to the post, but your response did not include a reason why you care if mathblade calls you a lurker.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I want a post restriction!!! :p Everyone should read my poems in space dandy 2.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lynched players wind up in prison, rather than killed outright. A maximum of two players may return from the game after being imprisoned. Lynched players do not flip until no one can be released from prison anymore. There may or may not be mechanics that allow people to communicate with those in prison. When no one can escape or be released from prison anymore, all players in prison will flip and will die. All flips are confirmed accurate (no actresses/tricksters, death millers, godfathers, etc).

^^ Lynched players do not flip WorldzMine

Indeed. In this game lynching for information, already a bad idea, is even less helpful than normal.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR what are your reads at the moment?

I really curious because you have said quite a bit, but I don't really know where you are at.

As it should be, Firebringer.

I don't vomit reads lists until I have high confidence in said reads, which means I don't do reads lists Day 1, or generally even establish reads, barring unusual events.

You do know some things though. You know that I'm not defending Space Cowboy, and I'm also not voting for him OR questioning anyone voting for him too closely about their votes. There are conclusions about my thoughts on the slot to be drawn from that.

You also know that I find your early push against JaeReed as lacking in scum motivations as far as I can tell. There are conclusions about my thoughts on your slot to be drawn from that.

You also know that I've disliked a number of things which Mathblade has said, but I have very pointedly noted that I have not called him scum at any point. There are conclusions about my thoughts on the slot to be drawn from that.

You know I think there isn't sufficient information at this point to use any sort of mod meta to determine JaeReed alignment. You didn't know that I found JaeReed lines of inquiry generally reasonable and productive, but now you do. There are conclusions about my thoughts on the slot to be drawn from that.

You know that I poked Koggz a little bit, and then stopped questioning her after the response, though I did note that her method of responding was cause for concern. There are conclusions about my thoughts on the slot to be drawn from that.

You know that I think karnos has an unenviable lack of competence in the area of optimization, but that I don't believe this lack on his part is AI. There are conclusions about my thoughts on the slot to be drawn from that.

Let me think. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other interactions that might have given you some idea of my positions and thoughts regarding various slots, but there probably are other ones.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't like responses like that.
But I guess thats best I am getting from you for now.

~Fire

Actually, you know what fire, I'm fucking stoked that you're involving yourself actively right now, when normally it's a huge fucking pain for me to get you to participate, so I'm gonna do something I avoid on D1. If there's any single slot in particular you want a concrete read on given their play up to this point, with me going through their ISO and actively working to analyze it, tell me who and I'll handle it tomorrow.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't like responses like that.
But I guess thats best I am getting from you for now.

~Fire

Actually, you know what fire, I'm fucking stoked that you're involving yourself actively right now, when normally it's a huge fucking pain for me to get you to participate, so I'm gonna do something I avoid on D1. If there's any single slot in particular you want a concrete read on given their play up to this point, with me going through their ISO and actively working to analyze it, tell me who and I'll handle it tomorrow.

-Cerb

Okay, why don't you give me thoughts on Detective Moonlight?

Will do, so kind of you to pick someone with a short ISO.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I had a big multiquote then it disappeared somehow q.q
I'll just put my thoughts here

RR - at the time of your comment that said "I only make early pushes when there's massive contradictions but no one is talking" there were nearly 20 pages. How is that "no one talking"?

I didn't mind Grovyle's Koggz's vote but Space Cowboy following them on it was really awful.
Koggz is a town lean for me
Also lean town on PV
-dragons

15 pages would be more accurate, and the majority of that was groyle and space cowboy, with a bit of JaeReed and myself, and it was largely setup and mechanic discussion.

So yes, that is no one talking.

-Cerb

And you townread everyone who was posting during that time?

-dragons

@Mathblade: I forgot to respond to you earlier, but know, I do not have any x must be y for z reasons to suggest at this point, other than agreeing with ABRs point about the lack of scum motivation for Groyvles push on JaeReed.

-Cerb

Yuck
It's been 30 pages, you should have SOMETHING by now

I had a big multiquote then it disappeared somehow q.q
I'll just put my thoughts here

RR - at the time of your comment that said "I only make early pushes when there's massive contradictions but no one is talking" there were nearly 20 pages. How is that "no one talking"?

I didn't mind Grovyle's Koggz's vote but Space Cowboy following them on it was really awful.
Koggz is a town lean for me
Also lean town on PV
-dragons

15 pages would be more accurate, and the majority of that was groyle and space cowboy, with a bit of JaeReed and myself, and it was largely setup and mechanic discussion.

So yes, that is no one talking.

-Cerb

And you townread everyone who was posting during that time?

-dragons

I like dragons head. Not sure who is who of the heads but dragons head seems to have good questions.

Dragons = SirCakez, Daenerys = lilith

From that post -- I noted the data ( as I'm sure *someone* on the scum team was smart enough to do already

Yes you said that scum were doing calculations.
And scum don't have to find town. So why the hell else would they do calculations?

Thirdly why the hell do you put me as scum as a townread of yours.
You said and I quote "if after this game I go to the scum PT and see you didn't think to do this".
Guess what genius I am not in the scum PT and trying to suggest that is all kinds of bad.

Mafia is a game of reading people. I use numbers to supplement but not make my case. Posting certain things only hurts people regardless of how easy it is to do. I could use my math degree and post a shit ton of things and write a program to do a lot of things. however I find the more numbers talk the less engaged people can be.

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Pedit: KlingonCelt as they said have many different things to do in meat world at times. I asked again specifically to see if a certain response comes up. But now that you mentioned ignoring it is invalid. *sigh*

So MathBlade is town. Don't see scum going balls to the walls here and poking such an active slot.

VOTE: Vote: Space Cowboy

Forgot to add this.

What are your non-Space Cowboy reads? Your ISO is pretty devoid.

I believe that's L-2.

I believe this is the point where I yell at people a bit to slow down etc.

That is all.

-Cerb

Why should we slow down? Space Cowboy isn't getting any townier.

Also my Grovyle scumread has turned into a town lean, forgot if I said this earlier.

-dragons

We should slow down because there is still conversation happening.

Also, you're acting like you've never played with me before. You're getting upset with me for not having reads on D1, when it should be quite clear from our play together in the past that I generally don't have reads on D1. Why is this a problem this game, when it hasn't been in the past?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, JaeReed, you wasted that item on that use? [sigh]

Is it a waste if it makes me as happy as I am right now? I think not.

I tossed up using it to control the Lieutenant somewhat but this was what I decided on. Something that would keep me smiling all of D1/N1 at least

Mechanically yes, it is a waste. However, the only thing it's useful for is denying someone the ability to vote(unless that is specifically an exception to the post restriction ). So, yeah, not a big deal.

Oh also, D&D: I don't know Mathblade very well. Why do you say he wouldn't poke such an active slot? Is this based on knowledge of his play, or is it just a general belief you have? There are other active slots that have been poked by people. Does that mean those pushing them are all unlikely to be scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The Great and Powerful Trixie wishes to know why you picked them.

I needed someone cool enough to accept the condition just on the basis that it'd make me happy, for one.
I'm curious about where the ring would be passed to next if given to you.
I wanted specifically this restriction and felt it would be unfair to place upon a hydra or upon someone who might not have English as a first language.

This implies that Mathblade wasn't your first choice, and that others were disqualified due to potential language barriers or the fact that they're in a hydra. Who were these preferred choices?

@mathblade: Good catch. First read through I completely missed the plural, and just assumed he was talking about the Matrix PT. The buddies bit is meaningless, because he's supposed to be in a PT with people to talk to, but the plurality on the PT thing is significant. Interested in seeing his response.

Groyvle, please establish your read on Detective Moonlight so I can go do my thing as promised.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The Great and Powerful Trixie wishes to know why RR and Space Cowboy are not voting McMenno after my explanation.

Because I want to hear his explanation. I don't kneejerk vote people.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Basically
I found menno's ''who is in what PT'' definitely fishy because its rolefishing and it looks bad with this:

All kills/heals must specify which PT a kill or heal is taking place in.

He also just posted in the matrix pt as if he was posting in a scum pt and then 'fixed' by saying it was the wrong pt. This was right after his post that implied multiple pt's.
I know menno to be a memer so i dont mind that last part, i find the first to be more worrying.

Before moving votes, id like to hear from grovyle.

-S


Pedit: cowboy stop slipping and fight your stuff in your hydra pt. Its useless to see you argue here.

So, we have confirmation that he has multiple PT's. 100%.

We don't know what these PT's are.

How did the post he made sound like it was intended for a scum PT?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

oh no, I seem to have slipped it up

what an unfortunate development

Welp. That certainly isn't a sufficient answer.

JaeReed, do you have everything finalized for your runs?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

oh no, I seem to have slipped it up

what an unfortunate development

Welp. That certainly isn't a sufficient answer.

JaeReed, do you have everything finalized for your runs?

-Cerb

Also, the likelihood that the other members of that PT are town has risen significantly, if you want to take that into account for your compositions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

do not fear mcmenno is here

so this is when we lynch the scum right

VOTE: Yume

Matrix, peeps, now that you are talking to one another...................please respond to my earlier question regarding your mutual reads on one another, and your thoughts on the likelihood of scum within the preexisting PT's.

not a lot has happened in the pt

I have definitely thought of the possibility that there might be "peeping toms" in here, this is heavily implied by the opening post

I would like all people who can view the matrix/astral pt to claim this, please

^

Says it is scummy without really saying why.
Bashes self-meta.
Proceeds to self meta his lurking and to excuse himself
Votes the easiest wagon to join cause ???

kk

~Shiro

put your voice where your vote is, please and thank you

VOTE: Space Cowboy

These are the only opinions he's expressed about anyone so far. Also something to take into account.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

do not fear mcmenno is here

so this is when we lynch the scum right

VOTE: Yume

Matrix, peeps, now that you are talking to one another...................please respond to my earlier question regarding your mutual reads on one another, and your thoughts on the likelihood of scum within the preexisting PT's.

not a lot has happened in the pt

I have definitely thought of the possibility that there might be "peeping toms" in here, this is heavily implied by the opening post

I would like all people who can view the matrix/astral pt to claim this, please

^

Says it is scummy without really saying why.
Bashes self-meta.
Proceeds to self meta his lurking and to excuse himself
Votes the easiest wagon to join cause ???

kk

~Shiro

put your voice where your vote is, please and thank you

VOTE: Space Cowboy

These are the only opinions he's expressed about anyone so far. Also something to take into account.

-Cerb

a light tinge of hipocrisy here, folks

just a tad

You misunderstand me. He's clearly scum. His response makes that obvious. His prior play isn't relevant. Once that was obvious, I went through his ISO to see what stances he had adopted throughout the game to see if he had listed any reads or anything, that JaeReed could use to help with his choices for the mission(s) tonight.

-Cerb

pedit: just a meme? What meme? I'm not familiar with that.

[Reasonably Rational]

Basically
I found menno's ''who is in what PT'' definitely fishy because its rolefishing and it looks bad with this:

All kills/heals must specify which PT a kill or heal is taking place in.

He also just posted in the matrix pt as if he was posting in a scum pt and then 'fixed' by saying it was the wrong pt. This was right after his post that implied multiple pt's.
I know menno to be a memer so i dont mind that last part, i find the first to be more worrying.

Before moving votes, id like to hear from grovyle.

-S


Pedit: cowboy stop slipping and fight your stuff in your hydra pt. Its useless to see you argue here.

So, we have confirmation that he has multiple PT's. 100%.

We don't know what these PT's are.

How did the post he made sound like it was intended for a scum PT?

-Cerb

Im not allowed to quote but he said that he slipped and asked cowboy to help
Yet

oh no, I seem to have slipped it up

what an unfortunate development

I believe it was just a meme. A terrible one, but a meme. That does not change my opinion on the other points i made. Still waiting for grovyle, i dont like their semi lurking.

-S

Also wait, what? He said he slipped and asked cowboy to help? So...umm. He and Cowboy appear to be scum together?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I need to know the details of what's going on in that PT.

There are some of you who can see in it. Please check and come back and share the sequence of events related to this slip. If it seems genuine, also please share with us any opinions he has expressed about any slots in the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, the only other person in there is randomidget, who is getting prodded...

Karnos said he can see both PTs.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Absolutely not, Cerb. he's trying to frame us. If need be, I might be able to "prove" that we are town.

Also, from the context given of the original slip in the PT, it appears his implication of you occurred at the same time as the apparent PT slip. The post he made in here wasn't nearly bad enough to get him lynched on it's own, so it's unlikely the pt slip occurred with the intent of framing you, ESPECIALLY given that you were already the most likely lynch for today.

This is why I need to know the details of this event.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ya know, for some reason I thought 786 waa posted by mathblade. All instances where I said "he" In thst post should be "you", since I was talking about Menno of course.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Karnos: the oh no post is the same one where he calls out space cowboy by name?

[Reasonably Rational]

Karnos: the oh no post is the same one where he calls out space cowboy by name?

If so, incredibly likely that they're both scum, which means I need to go through HIS iso as well to figure out his positions. We need to hold off on hammering until JaeReed has confirmed that everything he has set up for tonight is to his liking, but consider me voting in spirit. I'll make it actuality as soon as JaeReed shows up.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just lost a mafia game.
So its time to win a game here.....

I am on a 10 game losing streak...
:sigh:

@RR You answer my question?

~Fire

DM requested that I wait until after you stated your read on his slot before I looked into his ISO, so...no. Was waiting for you to show up.

Space Cowboy: It still doesn't make sense to try to take you down when, again, you're on the verge of being lynched already. If he deliberately tried to frame someone, it's better to go after someone who isn't a major suspect. Someone not widely townread either, who people could easily be convinced is scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

D&D is wrong. Menno slipped in here that he has multiple PTs, which wasn't a HUGE deal since it was easily explained away..but then in thr matrix PT, he posted what appeared to be something meant for the scum PT. He said something along the lines of " oh no I slipped, help me dodge the wagon Space Cowboy". I'm not in the PT, but that's my understanding based on what's been reported in here by DM and karnos.

You're misremembering our previous games, I assure you. I certainty didn't have strong positions on D1. I also wasn't saying we should "shut down" the wagon, but rather that we shouldn't end the day yet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just lost a mafia game.
So its time to win a game here.....

I am on a 10 game losing streak...
:sigh:

@RR You answer my question?

~Fire

DM requested that I wait until after you stated your read on his slot before I looked into his ISO, so...no. Was waiting for you to show up.

Space Cowboy: It still doesn't make sense to try to take you down when, again, you're on the verge of being lynched already. If he deliberately tried to frame someone, it's better to go after someone who isn't a major suspect. Someone not widely townread either, who people could easily be convinced is scum.

-Cerb

True, but they'd go for someone who people would believe was part of the scumteam with them. That leaves only a few people. (additionally, our wagon had shrunk by a sizable amount. I mean look at it, it's only 4 people now. It's shrunk by half. It was probably a last-ditch effort to reignite it)

This is a shitty defense. Prior to the slip, your wagon was at L-2( MAYBE L-3) still. The shrinking has occurred because people voting for you began voting for McMenno.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, he's been enough of a non-entity that few people had taken positions regarding him at that point. Almost anyone would have been a reasonable possibility as a scum buddy.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Both Detective Moonlight and karnos confirmed that. Randomidget is also in that PT, but he did not say anything about it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Karnos, I think you're wrong about the slip in the matrix PT being deliberate. Your argument is that McMenno wouldn't slip twice in a row, and I don't believe he really did. The plurality issue of his post in the main thread was a nothing issue, easily explained. He could have simply claimed someone recruited him to a hood at day start, or that he began the game in a hood with someone(other than the matrix PT). We already had one individual claim they were going to recruit someone to a hood tonight, and the signup thread said this would be a hood heavy game.

So, the first post was I guess maybe technically a slip, but it certainly wasn't something damning/bad enough for ME to consider it an outright slip. Since it wasn't something damning, why would he go scorched earth and call the slot a loss, and just deliberately call out space cowboy? Seems really implausible, leaving me to conclude that he legitimately posted that in the wrong pt. The fact that he was specifically mentioning a certain teammate DOES make it a bit suspicious(since why wouldn't you just ask your team in general for help), but I'm more inclined to believe it was wholly a slip, rather than a framing attempt.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Koggz, you believe scum had two posting members of the Matrix PT at game start?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Worldzmine
I have to look out for McMeno here!

Explain.

Also, I have this weird theory that McMenno and cowboy ARE actually scum together, he put him in prison so they can escape together tonight.

Only problem is...that's strictly inferior to forcing town to spend tomorrow lynching cowboy as well, and THEN still escaping. Unless there is some limitation on what days they can escape.

Meh. Probably just a crazy idea.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Explain.

Explain what?

Why you're still confident McMenno isn't scum. It's incredibly easy to mispost between two PTs.

Why is McMenno incapable of making such a mistake?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Space cowboy is far more active than most other slots. He could easily simply be the slot who McMenno knew was around. None of that is a defense for McMenno though....it's all a defense for space cowboy.

So, I ask you again: what was McMenno doing with thst post? What pt was it supposed to go in? His answers thus far haven't been informative at all, except to look like he's accepted that he fucked up and knows he's going to be lynched.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, I ask you again: what was McMenno doing with thst post?

He's probably trolling.

Then fuck him. Get him the fuck out of the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

UNVOTE:

I will have to think about this

I'll state right now without a full explanation that makes logical sense you should always be the lynch, and a lot of the time even if you do come up with a logical explanation, as it could simply be rationalizations.

QFT.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Koggz, you believe scum had two posting members of the Matrix PT at game start?

-Cerb

I believe it was you who said that alignment is not random, it's dependent on role drafts. Did you not consider the possibility that two scum happened to choose roles that were in the Matrix PT?

-Daenerys

Why did you phrase that question the way you did? It implies that something about what I said gives you cause to believe that I wasn't considering that possibility, when in fact I asked Koggz if she believed that, so OBVIOUSLY I considered it. I personally find it unlikely that the pt was designed with two scum in it, but it's far from impossible, and I wanted to know Koggz thoughts on the matter.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Omg JaeReed is back. Thoughts on everything? Is everything confirmed for you so we can go ahead and lynch McMenno?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Intend to hammer.

Do you have anything to say McMenno?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I kind of think Cerb is scum in this game.

~Fire

I kind of agree.

why?

The hydra's less aggressive than usual. Less wordy, not so energetic as I'm used to seeing. It could mean nothing, I expect Cerb to be a little shellshocked after Bloodborne, and it is just Day 1, but I'm keeping an eye on RR.

It's because I have a job that isn't at a desk anymore, and a 45 minute commute. You're used to seeing me when I have basically infinite time to spend on mafia. My Bloodborne irritation already wore ofr, otherwise I wouldn't be playing at all.

-Cerb

Pedit: oh shit, groyvle finally responded. Alright, gimme a bit, I'll go through DMS iso for you FB.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and JaeReed: You should do whatever you think is best. ^^ But try to decide quickly, I'll probably hammer in about 10 hours, right before I head to work, if McMenno just ignores us.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

574: Dislikes grovyle and Vedith, questions Vedith about their reads(double check if Vedith ever responds+if DM ever follows up), likes RR. Cowboy scummy, likes Jae, torn on D&D, likes mathblade. Supports karnos stupid argument. null on koggz, questions them on their naked vote.

Officially states scumreads on vedith, Grovyle, cowboy(scummy tone) and D&D, then votes Grovyle.

Most of the issues he seems to have are based on disagreeing with people about the Grovyle issues.

DM: Why don't you call me out for agreeing with ABR about Grovyle the same way you do the other supporters of their slot?

578: Questions D&D on why they didn't comment on the groyvle vote. Reasonable

582: Engages with D&D further about their mutual Space Cowboy scumreads.

584: Defends Koggz low number of reads.

600: Questions Koggz on why their "fake" naked vote was left instead of them unvoting. Good question.

631: Nullreads matrix PT members(Randomidget and McMenno(though McMenno may have not been in the PT yet at that point), accidentally attributes the PR implication about their slot to RR rather than Space Cowboy.

635: Corrects 631, and questions Space Cowboy instead.

639: Reiterates townread on RR, clarifies why Space Cowboys comment is worrisome, and says he has "no clue" about them.

649: Expresses a (weak?) townread on Karnos and Space Cowboy.

DM: what changed between your original catchup post, and this post, where Space Cowboy is no longer a scum read? Hell, what changed between 639 and 649, where you go from "no clue" to thinking he's aligned with you?

650: Clarification about Space Cowboy. They basically call them a null read at this point. Scummy tone, null to townie actions. This is worrisome.

651: Puts words in Mathblades mouth. Much dislike. He didn't say that he believes the post is AI, he says that he didn't say that YOU believed it was AI. Still thinks RR is town.

665: Questions Space Cowboy about their response to their earlier question in 635.

727: Asks for Grovyles read on their slot before RR ISO's their slot.

769: Dislikes grovyles avoidance and then asking RR for a read on them. Koggz is DEFINITELY town. Doesn't understand why people scumread cowboy, singles out worldzmine and asks for details on reads, specifically on cowboy, and asks mathblade why menno is scum(this is after the apparent slip happened)

DM: Please clarify this Koggz read. You go from null on Koggz, to attacking a reason for scumreading her, to questioning her on something, to(a good while later) deciding she's definitely town. Walk me through it please.

778: Outs McMenno's scum PT sounding post from the Matrix PT, also found Mennos question about who has access to what PT suspicious(for good cause). Doesn't vote for McMenno though, wants to hear from grovyle first.

Alright, overall, I very much dislike the inconsistency with regards to Space Cowboy. The read is all over the place, and there's no reason given for the apparent shifts, HOWEVER their actions regarding the slot are supportive of their final clarified position, which is identical to their original position. Vedith is never mentioned again after that first post, which is really really weird too. Vedith also doesn't bother answering DM's question for his slot.

What happened DM? Why no follow up with regards to Vedith?

Overall, null scum. He certainly appears to be scum hunting, and actively engaging with the game, but the lack of attempts to engage with his scum reads/inconsistency in the way he engages with them(as in, he calls out grovyle for ignoring him and lurking, but doesn't do the same for Vedith) bothers me a lot.

There you go FB.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Technically, the penalty for failing at the post restriction were never stated.

So...what does it mean?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whoops mod corrected my understanding/a sentence. Technically still have ownership. So I just try again.

O.o

So the ring is still yours?

So...what exactly does the post restriction accomplish? Meh. Don't bother answering, I don't think I need to know.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whoops mod corrected my understanding/a sentence. Technically still have ownership. So I just try again.

O.o

So the ring is still yours?

So...what exactly does the post restriction accomplish? Meh. Don't bother answering, I don't think I need to know.

-Cerb

Well I am answering so everyone understands because it was confusing the way it was worded.

As of right now it is a paperweight. If I ever finish the post restriction then I end up being able to do something similar to what JaeReed did.

It is always best to be transparent.

I keep coming this close to having a town read on you and then you mess it up by doing things like asking me not to answer a question that you open with?

So yes everyone needs to know because then everyone can understand what I am doing and why. Or do you not want people to be able to read me? FOS RR again.

My assumption was that if you had possession of it, then successfully completing it would allow you to *use* it, and I assumed it had some usage beyond just being passed around. Thus, I asked the question, then realized I didn't actually want you to tell me what it did.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Jaereed: I don't believe you ever answered my question about who your other options were for the ring thing?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have a lot to say about this when I get home.

A lot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I did the sameish thing, except I opened up my role pm in a new tab, amd all the other pms images were right there in thumbnail form....and being dumb, I clicked on WorldzMines and saw it and had to replace out.

Before I could tell the mission that McMennos "slip" seemed way overblown after seeing it myself.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, individual players lack of motivation/sense of difficulty for themselves has nothing to do with balance.

With that said, I have no thougts on the games balance actually, other than believing the flips should have come after *1* escape, not 2. The game was fundamentally a no flip on lynch game because it's not large enough for both escape effects to happen, and one of requires (d) that town deliberately mislynch ro get the flips.

Play wise that was almost certainly optimal yesterday, and shooting ANYONE was a really bad idea. Town should have lynched JaeReed amd selected the escape mission. JaeReed plans to escape that night, so 50% chance of getting that town slot back, while town revives anyone, and ABR doesn't shoot.

Town gets one more day, and all the flips.

Of abr does still shoot, 50% chance town is still okay even if he shoots town and th e prison break revives scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mathblade, Jaereed: I saw the roles for that mission.

We barely passed two of the checks. Without me that mission was likely failing, which changes everything.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lol, too much mafia...when auto correct goes for roles over rolls. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And sure it waa sheer luck. Just saying that was the state of things.

Of course, technically thr set of rolls including me in there has no relation ship to the chance of the other set without me succeeding. :p
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mmm. Also. 89% for 3 5/6s without 50%+ 1s, rolling 14 total dice? Are you sure?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's not no 5/6 though. It's AT LEAST 3 5/6 in large die pool. Pretty sure it's a good bit lower than 89%, but I'm too lazy to figure it out. :p

I mean, I feel like what you're talking about is 1-(.66^14), without accounting for the need for more than one success.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Not wanting to do the action is irrelevant. The fact that he was the best suited for handling the interference is...as I said, no way scum would trigger interference that would put them in a position where they might be removed from the game. In addition...the cost of having to fight against your lynch if you refuse to take the risk is WAY LESS than risking just outright dying while simultaneously defeating/wasting your own action if you manage to avoid death. It's like...either you get yourself killed, or you might as well have not used the ability in the first place. You guys failed to account for what motivation scum would have in placing that obstacle in your path versus that particular team composition, and that's what led you astray imo.

The second error was a massive fuck up, do not try to hand-wave it away. There was NOTHING about my discussion with Titus regarding our entry into the matrix/astral PT's that indicated there were ANY choices we had to make beyond just saying we wanted to enter them that night. I asked if I could post, and she said if I wanted to. I asked if they'd know we were in there, and she said we could do stealth.

Like, there's no practical reason WHY you would EVER announce someone joining a PT if they can, mechanically, do so quietly. If they want people to know they're in there, they'll tell them. No reason for moderator confirmation on exactly when they entered.

Actually, it really wasn't that huge ofa fuck up, EXCEPT for the fact that it directly led to our slot being killed, because there's no reason why we would have ever said anything in that PT when we had the mission PT to talk in.

That's a good point. Thanks for the feedback and for explaining it.

I wasn't trying to say that there wasn't an oversight in the way the PT entrance was handled; I obviously didn't know the exact wording of the conversation to be able to make a definite call either way, but I was just trying to think of why that might have happened.

It really sucks that's why Drixx died.

JaeReed, you're one of my new favorites. You and NC are both awesome and reasonable.

That is all.

-Cerb

Pedit: success was set as one hit needed per player brought on the mission.

[Reasonably Rational]

Naw you're good, I just went to the trouble of figuring out the1- .66^14 part and that's like over 99%. 89% works. ;p

-Cerb

Pedit: lol yeah.

[Reasonably Rational]

You can be stubborn, that's okay. You THINK about things at least and give reasons etc. Not enough people do imo.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, we didn't know what the thresholds were, or how they were determined.

Without that knowledge, you can't say for certain what the best thing to do is.

No reason why it didn't get HARDER for each additional person .

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

( as in, it could have been 1 success for 1, 2 for 2, 4 for 3, 7 for 4, etc. We simply didn't know)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Naw it wold have been dumb to assume the sample outlined exactly how it worked when the moderator refused to actually tell us what the thresholds were.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Naw, ABR is a strong independent stubborn as fuck player. Absolutely no way you MADE him do something. You may have persuaded him though.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ohhh.

Don't meta klingon. Imo, you can only reliably meta 1) bad players, and 2) players who control games, and klingon is neither. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean technically I think meta is bullshit, other than I guess telling someone what is NAI for player x.....so maybe I should have just said don't meta people unless they're bad at mafa.

-Cerb

Pedit:omg lol. That's like the worst thing to meta her on.. okay maybe not entirely, considering her scum games HAVE been universally low effort in my experience, but still. It's really hard to tell the difference between busy town klingon and scum klingon.

[Reasonably Rational]

first fuck my anger anyway. The game was fun , even the adventures. maybe not fair but really fun. Second I apologize to anyone if I insulted them during last night , you all dear to me

and I'm the one who sucks anyway and you all know that regardless.

<3 I was so happy when you replaced in and hopeful you'd blow the game apart, like I stopped watching at that point cuz I was sure you'd handle things. You don't suck.

-Cerb

Pedit: mafia is infuriating. Period. I don't even know why I keep playing. :/

[Reasonably Rational]

Nope, new titus avatar is best.

-Cerb

Pedit: what a silly game that was. Seriously.