Shadowrun Mafia - Game Over

[JaeReed]

You may change to any avatar not in use by another player. (For instance, female summoner is submitted, so you could do male summoner.)

*puts hand in the air* Hi, yes, I am confused.

Does this mean that we can have an avatar that is not taken by another player even if we do not have the role corresponding to that avatar?

[JaeReed]

Draft: Face

Still thinking about the avatar.

[JaeReed]

Draft: Face

Still thinking about the avatar.

Spoiler:

yay/nay?

[JaeReed]

Draft: Face

Still thinking about the avatar.

Spoiler:

yay/nay?

It works.

Ok, I'm happy with that then

[JaeReed]

Haven't read up past like page 7ish but @Fire my role being Face is what makes me party leader today. Party leader is chosen by a player after that.

The Party Leader will be selected by Mr. Johnson at night. Mr. Johnson will be informed of any restrictions of selecting the Party Leader. The Day 1 Party Leader and Mr. Johnson are linked to a roles in Pregame, and not selected by any player whatsoever. Votes to elect these roles will be "misplaced" with extreme prejudice. The title of "Mr. Johnson" may be transferred throughout the game without the owner dying.

Wanna catch up before giving my thoughts but I'm getting strong town feels from Grovyle so far.

[JaeReed]

Ok, so far what I am feeling pretty definitively here is that Grovyle & ABR are both town.

Cakez is pushing an angle I can't see coming from town, and the comment about Space Cowboy (who I also had bad vibes from) feels off as well.

VOTE: Dragons

If anyone wants me to back stuff up with quotes feel free to ask. I'm feeling kinda lazy so not gonna go through the casual chat again without prompting.

Gonna start looking into parties now, ABR.

[JaeReed]

@Lilith

VOTE: Jaereed

Two distinct things you gotta know about varsoon games.
Varsoon makes sme weird mechanics, and if this is anything like bloodborne, the original party leader is scum. ALWAYS!

That means jaereed must be lynched because of game mechanics, ALWAYS

No ifs ands or butts.

MOD META THIS GAME TO DEATH!!!


FOR BLOOBORNE!

~Fire

[also never moving my vote. This must go]

Hate this mod meta from Fire. Trying to out-mod meta Varsoon is absurd and will never work.
Plus his meta is inaccurate too. The initial leader was town in Saga, like others have noted.

I feel like by the stage in the game cakey posted he should have realized FB's push was clearly for pressure to try to get a read on me. It was pretty obvious in the fact that he continued the push after he had been disproven, and I feel like pointing out the meta thing is just for the sake of echoing others here.

VOTE: Jaereed

Jaereed is confirmed scum!
@Fire - Do I need to know anything about the setup for day 1?

I don't like this insta sheep from Vedith either.

Space Cowboy's posting is scummy, but it might just be DS's posting style. We'll see, holding off there.

VOTE: Grovyle

-dragons

Remember what ABR said about wanting to be on missions if you're scum? This fits the bill. He's picking at what is clearly an RVS wagon on me and I feel it's indicative of trying to get on my good side so that your slot is chosen for a mission. Vedith's vote was fine, imo.

The fact that Cakey acknowledged SC's posting to be scummy, then tried to dismiss it as merely being posting style and saying he'll hold off is what pings me. It's what I can imagine scum doing to avoid giving a read on their partner (or a potential mislynch if they're unsure on how the game flow is going to run).

Basically, I'm finding it hard to believe a town SirCakez would push fb of all people here over the scummier looking Space Cowboy. Or Vedith. ABR gave good reasons for Grovyle slot to be town but there is more to it than that. I'll actually go point out what I saw after this, I guess.

VOTE: Daenerys and Dragons

Unsurprising

-dragons

This also feels like a discredit similar to how Cakey acted in Cocktail party when RC replaced in.

What about that one post bothered you?

See above. The discredit train.

As far as your own posting, you're quite focused on how other people are finding your slot scummy as compared to actually reading other players so far, and I also dislike that.

[JaeReed]

Using bad and incorrect mod meta to tunnel someone is not townie at all
I kind of get what you're saying about scum not wanting to push the party leader but I don't think it makes them "conf town"

If Jae is scum it's an easy way for Grovyle to distance from a buddy early on without actually hurting the chances of them getting on the run team
If Jae is town it puts pressure on a townie in a position with a lot of power

-dragons

This is also pretty bad. The first line especially, though I'm having trouble articulating why. I don't feel like anyone who looked at what Grovyle was saying would actually believe he was truly tunneling. It feels like Cakey was surface level reading to find something to push on to take focus away from Space Cowboy, which is where the thread focus was starting to be at the time.

The second paragraph seems to run with the assumption that Grovyle is scum. It leaves no room for town motive, yet the 2nd line is actually a point for why Grovyle could be doing it as town. He's trying to spin something into being scum motivated when it's town motivated.

[JaeReed]

Firebringer, is this JaeReed push RVS, or serious? Would you make this push regardless of who held this position on D1, or are there players you wouldn't push on this basis?

Is this a JaeReed push, or a "leader day 1" push?
-Cerb

Leader Day 1 based on Mod Meta.
I have no read on Jaereed.

I just think varsoon likes to give all the treats to scum in beginning.

~Fire

Also been reading more of hte setup.
So basically anyone we lynch goes to jail and they won't flip till no one can be released.

I wonder if jail might be a good place to put strong town so as to protect them?
Or if they aren't protected in jail then that won't matter

~Fire

Both of these posts I felt were town thought processes, the latter being significantly moreso. I feel like scum might know whether they could still kill people in jail. It's not something that's necessarily impossible to fake as scum, but you're kind of relying on the other players to pick up on this kind of thing.

FB is just towntelling a fair bit imo.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Grovyle

For incorrect meta.

Varsoon had a good guy be the party leader in SaGa Frontier. Your logic is already flawed, Fire.

Ohh, well I still think jaereed is conf scum based on my own deductions on flawed logic.

LYNCH JAEREED!!

This post in particular made it clear what Grovyle was trying to do by getting a wagon on me and trying to make me feel like I was in danger of a speed lynch.

[JaeReed]

Its a They btw.

~Fire

Completely unrelated to the game but I wanted to <3 for this.

Anyway, do we want to run two adventures or do we want to play this a little more cautiously N1? I read a bit of Bloodborne's PTs when they were released and saw that the runs tended to put some people in the party at a disadvantage for the next day. I'd rather go with what majority wants here.

[JaeReed]

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

UNVOTE:

This is a massive overreaction to an early wagon. I don't feel like scum!cakey would have an emotional outburst here and in this manner.

[JaeReed]

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

UNVOTE:

This is a massive overreaction to an early wagon. I don't feel like scum!cakey would have an emotional outburst here and in this manner.

Nope. Perfectly capable of faking it.

What I mean is that scum!cakez I feel is fairly confident in his ability as scum to talk his way out of a lynch.

Generally, I would find an overreaction to be suspicious, but this is someone that I feel is a decent scum player. I'd imagine him to be a little calmer over an early wagon as such.

I also find threatening to replace out to be below the belt as far as AtE goes (I get that not everyone shares the same moral code as I do so I don't expect everyone to be swayed by that) if you're scum pretending to be upset town. There are ways to AtE without that kind of angle.

You could probably argue that he's scum pissed at being caught for reasons he doesn't think are AI. It wouldn't be the first time I've misread cakez (actually I don't think I have ever correctly read him). I'll wait and see what Lilith has to say about my responses to her.

In the meantime I'd also like to know what FB thought of the outburst.

[JaeReed]

@All

Anyway, do we want to run two adventures or do we want to play this a little more cautiously N1? I read a bit of Bloodborne's PTs when they were released and saw that the runs tended to put some people in the party at a disadvantage for the next day. I'd rather go with what majority wants here.

[JaeReed]

Generally, I would find an overreaction to be suspicious, but this is someone that I feel is a decent scum player. I'd imagine him to be a little calmer over an early wagon as such.

I also find threatening to replace out to be below the belt as far as AtE goes (I get that not everyone shares the same moral code as I do so I don't expect everyone to be swayed by that) if you're scum pretending to be upset town. There are ways to AtE without that kind of angle.

You could probably argue that he's scum pissed at being caught for reasons he doesn't think are AI. It wouldn't be the first time I've misread cakez (actually I don't think I have ever correctly read him). I'll wait and see what Lilith has to say about my responses to her.

I'm not arguing that he's scum or town based on him saying he would hypothetically replace out if he wasn't in a hydra, it's not alignment-indicative at all. Don't be swayed so easily, you pushover.

My point was more that I don't think scum!cakez resorts to AtE here. My main point was in the first paragraph, the rest was just to show my inner thought process and how it supports my conclusion there in my mind.

I can be a pushover, and I'll openly acknowledge that I'm weak to AtE and buddying, but I really think that was a town overreaction.

[JaeReed]

We didn't hate you. But you obviously harbored some vitriol towards us. You did curse. You insulted us several times. And you're wrong about us here - I don't know why you're trying to push us so seriously over a post Cakes made that sounds exactly like he did in Bloodborne. Stop.

-Daenerys

pedit: What was off about whatever comment on space cowboy? I believe cakes said they were feeling scummy, and you're getting bad vibes, so what gives?

I also think this is genuine self righteousness from this head, now that I've taken a step back to reread.

249 wasn't a bad post either from the dragons head. I agreed with him on Space Cowboy's 225, but what pinged me most was 240 as a reaction to the outburst. Having trouble articulating the issue exactly, but it doesn't read as genuine to me, and didn't at the time of posting either.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Jaereed

Jaereed is confirmed scum!
@Fire - Do I need to know anything about the setup for day 1?

I don't like this insta sheep from Vedith either.

Space Cowboy's posting is scummy, but it might just be DS's posting style. We'll see, holding off there.

VOTE: Grovyle

-dragons

Remember what ABR said about wanting to be on missions if you're scum? This fits the bill. He's picking at what is clearly an RVS wagon on me and I feel it's indicative of trying to get on my good side so that your slot is chosen for a mission. Vedith's vote was fine, imo.

The fact that Cakey acknowledged SC's posting to be scummy, then tried to dismiss it as merely being posting style and saying he'll hold off is what pings me. It's what I can imagine scum doing to avoid giving a read on their partner (or a potential mislynch if they're unsure on how the game flow is going to run).

Basically, I'm finding it hard to believe a town SirCakez would push fb of all people here over the scummier looking Space Cowboy. Or Vedith. ABR gave good reasons for Grovyle slot to be town but there is more to it than that. I'll actually go point out what I saw after this, I guess.

I didn't like Vedith's entrance either, and it wasn't because it was a wagon on you specifically. I'm not really sure why.

I don't think picking at an RVS wagon would get someone on your "good side." If it's not a serious wagon then we wouldn't get brownie points, so why would that matter?

In my experience DS is pretty solid lynchbait material and therefore, even though we think Space Cowboy is scummy, we weren't sure that their posts were scum-motivated. But since you and Cakes brought it up,

VOTE: Space Cowboy

Did you feel Vedith was trying to buddy FB? That's about the only thing I feel could be read from that which you might have disliked that I can follow logically. Otherwise, eh, I mean I can't discount your gut but I think it's worth looking in to why you disliked it at least.

The way cakez picked at the wagon made it feel like he was framing the wagon as a serious one.

Alright, but I still don't follow why cakey went after fb over Vedith in that case.

VOTE: Daenerys and Dragons

Unsurprising

-dragons

This also feels like a discredit similar to how Cakey acted in Cocktail party when RC replaced in.

What about that one post bothered you?

See above. The discredit train.

As far as your own posting, you're quite focused on how other people are finding your slot scummy as compared to actually reading other players so far, and I also dislike that.

We already explained our belief that ABR was coming after us because of a grudge from Bloodborne.

Discussing other people's reads on me is generally how I play. Sorry?

Yeah, after looking at it from that viewpoint I can see it.

Sorry Q_Q I haven't actually played with you before. What are your thoughts with regards to everyone's reads on your slot, then?

Using bad and incorrect mod meta to tunnel someone is not townie at all
I kind of get what you're saying about scum not wanting to push the party leader but I don't think it makes them "conf town"

If Jae is scum it's an easy way for Grovyle to distance from a buddy early on without actually hurting the chances of them getting on the run team
If Jae is town it puts pressure on a townie in a position with a lot of power

-dragons

This is also pretty bad. The first line especially, though I'm having trouble articulating why. I don't feel like anyone who looked at what Grovyle was saying would actually believe he was truly tunneling. It feels like Cakey was surface level reading to find something to push on to take focus away from Space Cowboy, which is where the thread focus was starting to be at the time.

The second paragraph seems to run with the assumption that Grovyle is scum. It leaves no room for town motive, yet the 2nd line is actually a point for why Grovyle could be doing it as town. He's trying to spin something into being scum motivated when it's town motivated.

Uh... basically most of what you say here is not really true. Space Cowboy wasn't getting much (if any) negative attention when Cakes posted, so there's no reason for us to be posting fluff to draw attention away from them. And I think you're misreading the second paragraph. In both cases Grov is scum, but the scenario changes depending on your alignment..?

I felt that he was getting negative attention in that a few people had expressed a dislike of his posts. Vedith in 159, for example, and he tries to push it in 177. SC's 162 I hate for some reason - I'll get back to this when I figure out why (I also dislike 175 for somewhat obvious reasons). 163 from FB. I think most were just waiting on me to respond to the RVS?

Also I just saw something that SC pointed out back there so I'm gonna break that train of thought and quickly finish this up.

The second paragraph, the fact that he's only focusing on Grov being scum is what irks me. The scum motivation changes depending on my alignment, but there's also town motivation in what Cakez posted as the reason Grov would push me if I were town. I feel like that should have been acknowledged somehow, since town does have a reason to want to get a read on me.

Anyway-- gonna want your thoughts on this thing to follow.

[JaeReed]

Basically, your meta argument is crap, we don't have enough information.

Can i quote this and shove it down your throat if Jaereed turns up to be scum?

You can certainly try, but whether or not he's scum has no bearing on the strength of your argument. Those are two wholly separate things. You may have very well come to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons though.

-Cerb

Something irks me about this post and I can't quite say what.

This is actually a good point. What I'm seeing here that bugged me on the reread was the "You can certainly try". It comes across with a tone that hints at knowing I'm town.

[JaeReed]

Basically, your meta argument is crap, we don't have enough information.

Can i quote this and shove it down your throat if Jaereed turns up to be scum?

You can certainly try, but whether or not he's scum has no bearing on the strength of your argument. Those are two wholly separate things. You may have very well come to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons though.

-Cerb

Something irks me about this post and I can't quite say what.

This is actually a good point. What I'm seeing here that bugged me on the reread was the "You can certainly try". It comes across with a tone that hints at knowing I'm town.

Scratch that. Just reread it again and that was just me derping on a skim. He does indeed entertain the fact that I'm scum. The you can try was just related to the fact that if I were scum it'd have nothing to do with my role getting party leader.

[JaeReed]

Fire how can you say that D: I am in the game. Of course it will be. ^_^

As RC used to tell me:

"It only takes one player to ruin a game"

Ill let you all guess who that will be.

~Fire

We all know it's me! I'm a horrible person

[JaeReed]

guys, we must put jaereed in a jail cell, in order to protect the shadowrunners!
Also if we have someone who can execute the treestumps, like a jailor who can also release or something.
They should instant execute jaereed.

VOTE: Grovyle

We have no way of knowing what happens in jail and you want to just randomly put the person in charge of missions in there? And how do you know if they are/are not tree stumps? For all we know they could be completely separate. In Shadowrun lore prison was really bad for a runner and they sure as hell couldn't communicate.

I read that as him trying to make his wagon on me seem like a definite threat to me. I didn't think it was a serious call, tbh. Just like how he calls for speedlynching.

[JaeReed]

Anyway-- gonna want your thoughts on this thing to follow.

@Daenerys ignore this I'm just bad at mafia lol

[JaeReed]

@Math Are you town?

[JaeReed]

guys, we must put jaereed in a jail cell, in order to protect the shadowrunners!
Also if we have someone who can execute the treestumps, like a jailor who can also release or something.
They should instant execute jaereed.

VOTE: Grovyle

We have no way of knowing what happens in jail and you want to just randomly put the person in charge of missions in there? And how do you know if they are/are not tree stumps? For all we know they could be completely separate. In Shadowrun lore prison was really bad for a runner and they sure as hell couldn't communicate.

I read that as him trying to make his wagon on me seem like a definite threat to me. I didn't think it was a serious call, tbh. Just like how he calls for speedlynching.

See, that's why I actually specifically asked him whether or not the push was just RVS or if it was real. So you believe that he wanted to put pressure on your slot for whatever reason, but that he never sincerely believed in the whole mod meta argument?

-Cerb

I believe he exaggerated his belief in the argument. He very likely played up his paranoia that scum gets all the goodies from Varsoon. After all, there's Titus to consider here as well. FB wanted the wagon to look threatening to get a read on me. It's not the first time someone who has played with me previously has tried this. I've been told it's because I'm easy to read.

[JaeReed]

Oh, oops. Thought my vote was already here.

VOTE: Space Cowboy

Was waiting for D&D's response to my case after I unvoted then I guess I forgot because of the thing I thought I saw that wasn't a thing... The thing I'll just kindly ask everyone to forget about >.>

[JaeReed]

guys, we must put jaereed in a jail cell, in order to protect the shadowrunners!
Also if we have someone who can execute the treestumps, like a jailor who can also release or something.
They should instant execute jaereed.

VOTE: Grovyle

We have no way of knowing what happens in jail and you want to just randomly put the person in charge of missions in there? And how do you know if they are/are not tree stumps? For all we know they could be completely separate. In Shadowrun lore prison was really bad for a runner and they sure as hell couldn't communicate.

I read that as him trying to make his wagon on me seem like a definite threat to me. I didn't think it was a serious call, tbh. Just like how he calls for speedlynching.

I hate that game. Blah :/ That at the start messed with all my reads.

I didn't mention that game for a reason, lol. But now that you've brought it up... Rethink your stance on Grovyle? You misread him in that game, too.

@Math Are you town?

Is it wrong that I hope they aren't so I can lynch them?

~Fire

Be nice <3

[JaeReed]

Math didn't answer my question about whether they're town

[JaeReed]

Math didn't answer my question about whether they're town

It was implied in the paragraph to Fire.

Yes I am town.

Good night.

Haha, okay. Goodnight!

Is anyone here half decent with, like, statistics or probabilities or whatever? Like, what kind of numbers do you think we should we be looking at for the team(s) to pass challenges?

[JaeReed]

Math didn't answer my question about whether they're town

Why is that question seriously asked?
Like what possible scum reaction do you expect from it though.

I don't know why people and I have seen town do it too, its not just a scum filler question.

Think the question:

Are you town?

Will lead to anything?
I have yet to honestly answer that as either alignment.
and people have used my answer to that question to read me. As if I will give any other answer than something like:

"Probably not"
"Maybe"
"I don't know"

~Fire

Eh it's more for fun, tbh. But sometimes I do get a response that I like! It's just very rare.

[JaeReed]

Is anyone here half decent with, like, statistics or probabilities or whatever? Like, what kind of numbers do you think we should we be looking at for the team(s) to pass challenges?

That won't matter, the mods said in the setup posts that the difficulty in the challenges scale relatively to team size.
So you want a team that has skills you need for the missions but also want to keep it small for scale.

~Fire

They must pick 3-5 shadowrunners. Difficulty of each mission increases with more shadowrunners.

I'm thinking less about team size and more whether I should be aiming for the stats to be well rounded enough to handle something unexpected or just stack up the numbers on what I think will be relevant to the challenge.

[JaeReed]

I don't know you but happy birthday!

[JaeReed]

@karnos deathproof implies lynchproof as well.

[JaeReed]

This feels like a bit of a suckup and a lot of their mechanics posts are bad.

I think you're reading too much in to the correction of pronouns, but agree that they seem more focused on mechanics than any scumhunting. I feel like it's an easy way for scum to hide in this game while appearing to be helpful and pro-town. I asked for opinions, not huge arguments over it.

For the missions IMHO we should be doing missions that we think have town AND a hard to find skill set. A big rule of Shadowrun games is always bring a friend and never go it alone. So I would take those mission names and guess what could be on them...Like demolitions probably need good people with demolitions...Murder probably needs good combat and go from there. List the people based on the chart who seem to match those and put the towniest of those even if they have a number or two lower.

Yeah I have down what I feel is most likely due to the names, but my fear is that one of the checks might be something I didn't think would be linked to that adventure. That's why I was hoping you'd be able to help with the probability side. We know we need to roll a 5 or 6, but I don't know how likely it is for us to roll a success given, for argument's sake, 13 dice.

[JaeReed]

Ahh, that was you? Yup, wasn't sure whether you wanted me to use it on myself so I've not done anything with it yet.

[JaeReed]

Enjoy now let's get back to mafia. I have to go but this should help. The last column is because of the first post saying you need a certain number of successes.

Thanks btw this was exactly what I wanted. Also why were you more paranoid over karnos being a suckup/buddying with the pronouns thing than me asking you for help? I would have expected you to have some concern over potential buddying there?

[JaeReed]

Eyyyy I got another strong townread. This time of the "holy crap you voiced what I thought" variety.

Math, what's your opinion on Klingon's vote on you?

[JaeReed]

Eyyyy I got another strong townread. This time of the "holy crap you voiced what I thought" variety.

Math, what's your opinion on Klingon's vote on you?

Oh? Did I miss you mentioning other strong townreads prior to this?

-Cerb

Probably not, tbh. I'm not sure I posted them in the thread.

I do think most of them are kinda obvious, though?

[JaeReed]

For me, you'd look at who I'm defending.
I just checked in my ISO and I have definitely stated most of my strong townreads. Given reasons for some, not for others.

[JaeReed]

Oh, oops. Thought my vote was already here.

VOTE: Space Cowboy

Was waiting for D&D's response to my case after I unvoted then I guess I forgot because of the thing I thought I saw that wasn't a thing... The thing I'll just kindly ask everyone to forget about >.>

Hey JR, can you explain your vote?

-Daenerys

I could. Or you could look in my ISO. 263 I think.
I'm changing it though.
VOTE: karnos

[JaeReed]

For me, you'd look at who I'm defending.
I just checked in my ISO and I have definitely stated most of my strong townreads. Given reasons for some, not for others.

Touche. Defense is a valid indicator of a townread, though I'd argue that nobody has been attacked enough to justify a defense at this point.

And...you're going to make me read your ISO aren't you? so much easier for me if you just........say the reads. In one nice little post. :/

I've still defended people.

I won't rank my townreads. I'll list them in order of how much information I feel I've given as to my reasonings for why they're townreads, though.

Grovyle, D&D, Math, ABR, RR

[JaeReed]

@RR I've put in placeholders just in case, but there's some further tweaking I'd like to do.

[JaeReed]

Math, would you place yourself at my mercy for the opportunity to make a contract with someone D2 if they accept your conditions?

It only works if the condition is accepted after it is stated in full what the condition is, so if you hate it you can reject me... I just don't like being rejected so I'll ask first if you're willing to take a post restriction purely for my amusement. You'll probably hate the restriction but it would make me happy?

[JaeReed]

Math, I have a ring that I can offer up with a condition. Once you accept, you have to complete the condition in order to be able to pass the ring on. The condition can't involve role or alignment claiming. I assume you can make your own condition when passing the ring on to another player.

[JaeReed]

Trade: Devil's Bargain Ring
To: MathBlade
Conditions: All references to yourself, such as your name or a first person pronoun, must be replaced with 'The Great and Powerful Trixie'.
Number of charges left after passing: 1

[JaeReed]

Also, JaeReed, you wasted that item on that use? [sigh]

Is it a waste if it makes me as happy as I am right now? I think not.

I tossed up using it to control the Lieutenant somewhat but this was what I decided on. Something that would keep me smiling all of D1/N1 at least

[JaeReed]

Trade: Devil's Bargain Ring
To: MathBlade
Conditions: All references to yourself, such as your name or a first person pronoun, must be replaced with 'The Great and Powerful Trixie'.
Number of charges left after passing: 1

The Great and Powerful Trixie wishes to know how to submit The Great and Powerful Trixie's agreement to the ring. The Great and Powerful Trixie also wishes to know if The Great and Powerful Trixie can abbreviate TGPT.

The Great and Powerful Trixie may not abbreviate to the best of my knowledge, as that was not within the conditions. Sorry <3

I must thank The Great and Powerful Trixie for making me quite possibly the happiest NB in this thread at this time <3

[JaeReed]

Mechanically yes, it is a waste. However, the only thing it's useful for is denying someone the ability to vote(unless that is specifically an exception to the post restriction ). So, yeah, not a big deal.

Theoretically I could have used it to force someone to only vote with majority or something. I don't think that's wise to do D1, though. I could have used it as a restriction for the adventures tonight in much the same way, but I decided against that also. When I realized I could make someone only refer to themselves as the title that I gave...Well, it wasn't really a choice anymore xP

[JaeReed]

The Great and Powerful Trixie wishes to know why you picked them.

I needed someone cool enough to accept the condition just on the basis that it'd make me happy, for one.
I'm curious about where the ring would be passed to next if given to you.
I wanted specifically this restriction and felt it would be unfair to place upon a hydra or upon someone who might not have English as a first language.

[JaeReed]

AHAHAHAHA SHIRO BUSTED ME. I was half hoping no one would notice it was an MLP:FIM reference ;p

[JaeReed]

The Great and Powerful Trixie must go to work.

VOTE: McMenno

Putting The Great and Powerful Trixie's vote back til I can come back and read what happened.

the great and powerful trixie broke post restriction

Yup I guess we'll try again tomorrow.

[JaeReed]

I'm a little wary that Menno might want to be in jail with Space Cowboy for some reason. Perhaps to permanently kill the slot? Something about this is sending up thousands of alarm bells in my head. Looking at it logically he is the only person we should be lynching today, I think. If he is trolling to that extent as town then we can't let it live to lylo, and there's a non zero chance that he truly scumslipped then tried to cover for himself.

VOTE: McMenno

L2

Townreading Koggz btw.
I have things confirmed but I'm on the verge of swapping my picks due to paranoia.

[JaeReed]

Oh and I got a PM stating I failed the post restriction sorry guys. Will try again tomorrow I was sicker than a dog this morning so probably where I messed up.

I hope you feel better now

[JaeReed]

Jaereed: I don't believe you ever answered my question about who your other options were for the ring thing?

-Cerb

I was weighing up most everyone, really. I chose the person I wanted most to have the ring outta all the players. It wasn't really a "Oh I could give it to RR or Math or Yume" type decision. Just like "well a hydra probably wouldn't be fair to make two people dance to my tune so I won't send it there" and so on.

[JaeReed]

I'm a little wary that Menno might want to be in jail with Space Cowboy for some reason. Perhaps to permanently kill the slot? Something about this is sending up thousands of alarm bells in my head. Looking at it logically he is the only person we should be lynching today, I think. If he is trolling to that extent as town then we can't let it live to lylo, and there's a non zero chance that he truly scumslipped then tried to cover for himself.

VOTE: McMenno

L2

Townreading Koggz btw.
I have things confirmed but I'm on the verge of swapping my picks due to paranoia.

What did you think of my big theory wall?

Um, honestly? The moment you said that vig should be shooting someone they scumread who wouldn't get lynched I had something to say about it and stopped reading to type out a theory disagreement to you before deciding against it. We can talk theory after the game.

I will say, I don't believe being a dayvig makes him any alignment. What I do believe is it's plausible for a dayvig who looks like they might be going to jail to decide to use their ability before they lose the opportunity to do so. In that case, using it on the person that you're a counterwagon to isn't necessarily a bad idea, imo. If the person is town then we were essentially spared the mislynch. That said, we don't get the flips, and I can also see scum motivation behind that.

Put the "should we break one of them out" talk on hold til D2 I think, when we'll have more information.

Townreading Klingon.

[JaeReed]

Okay. Been doing some thinking on McMenno and I think there are four options:
1) McMenno was intentionally trolling to try to put attention on himself and then took out Space Cowboy as a good will gesture before they got likely lynched today. (This option is also town panick McMenno after a bad troll attempt.) This option McMenno is town. Space Cowboy's alignment unknown but likely scum based on prior play.
2) McMenno scum-slipped and then tried to frame Space Cowboy and when he realized that didn't work and direction was shifting off of Space Cowboy panicked and used their power to take out a townie before their lynch. This option McMenno scum and Space Cowboy town.
3) McMenno scum-slipped thrice. First time in thread the second to ask Space Cowboy for help. This makes both McMenno and Space Cowboy scum. (The third option in detail in a minute harder to explain)

I think 3 is the least likely scenario. 1 and 2 are equally likely.

The evidence of panic could be the action of using the dayvig on Space Cowboy. "Why troll in the first place?" Eh people troll. If I asked myself why people did half the stuff they do I'd drive myself up the wall. Sometimes people just do things. The real question here is as either alignment... Why not claim you were trolling instead of doing...whatever the fuck he's doing? That's what doesn't add up for me.

Like, the only answer I can think of to that is... He wants to be in jail with Space Cowboy for some reason.

I don't think asking about the usage of his power role would have been intended for the scum PT. It's something you can do in the main thread as any alignment so I can't see him not doing it. Especially if he wanted to handwave using it on town. "Furthermore I don't see a scum McMenno taking a scum Space Cowboy to prison. Therefore if McMenno is scum then Space Cowboy surely isn't." I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I think the biggest thing that becomes clear here is that it is extremely likely that McMenno and Space Cowboy are opposite alignments. It becomes a matter of we need to decide as a group of McMenno is likely scum and therefore Space Cowboy town and break him out OR McMenno is town and Space Cowboy can rot in jail.

Of the two options I actually think this makes Space Cowboy town because of all the hoops I would have to jump through to make McMenno town world work but I wanted to see what others thought. Especially since the first post says only two people may be broken out of prison then we would want to decide this as a group and not have to force a person to make a unilateral decision on their own. Pretty much I think any attempt to break someone out of prison should be a town decision. We don't know when an attempt could happen to break someone out and if the group thinks both are scum then they should both rot in prison. Or maybe we don't take the chance. But the first post says up to two people could be broken out so I wanted to throw the thoughts out there.

I don't necessarily agree with them being opposite alignments. The rest, I'd rather us wait to break someone out if we have someone who can do that, until we have more information.

P-Edit: Menno admitted to the slip being a troll so.. eh... I still feel that should have been admitted earlier?

[JaeReed]

Well right now the prison holds two people. Those two people are likely Space Cowboy and McMenno. If I am wrong then I need to be adjusted as that is why I spilled my thoughts. What do you think about them both?

I think it's possible they were both town, but now Menno's fucked up our ability to read either of them or make any actual use of this day phase.

Would you even allow yourself to be adjusted, Math? Self-voting doesn't get your attention and I don't know how to make a strong enough statement without it (I am joking <3 This paragraph is a joke and you are fine)

I don't disagree with your pre-flips aside from the fact that Space Cowboy and Menno have the possibility of both being town that I feel should be looked at.

[JaeReed]

Agreed. Furthered by the fact I asked them to be transparent and they aren't doing anything of the sort towards a reads list except if he is right or wrong makes him trolling highly unlikely.

Furthermore trolling with a dayvig is hella risky. It feels like he is caught scum trying to say what we want to hear instead of what is really the truth. I could see trolling with a role that is not powerful but a dayvig? He could have just taken the shot and claimed ownership afterward or maybe not even claimed it at all. Like what makes you think he could be town?

Let's assume for case and point McMenno and Space Cowboy both town. Then we get into a world where we have 3-4 scum and 14 players alive and not in prison. This means either 11 town v 3 scum or 10 town versus 4 scum right now pre kill. Assuming one town kill tonight:

10 town v 3 scum or 9 town v 4 scum either is a recipe for disaster.

Hence why we need to figure out what we are doing.

The thing that makes me think he could be town is that I didn't have a solid read on him before all this went down. If someone is going to troll then it doesn't matter what role they have, they're just gonna troll.

If they're both town, who would be the scum in that scenario?

[JaeReed]

Unlikely. If we can't figure out who is town before any potential opportunities then we leave them both in jail to die. There is no reason we have to break anyone out we just have to decide as a group what is most likely and then if the opportunity arises we act on whatever the group has determined.

I figure we have three options
1) Break out Space Cowboy -- I think McMenno is scum so likely he tried to take a town on the way down.
2) Do nothing. Let the flips sort things out. -- Possible idea but that doesn't sit right with me.
3) Break out McMenno -- I hate this option. If we choose this we should just not lynch him today.

1 is the option I like the most but not until tomorrow and after we've discussed in full tomorrow. If that's even an option that we have.

[JaeReed]

I'm ready to go into night.

[JaeReed]

The Great and Powerful Trixie is becoming suspicious of koggz though. Why would a scum player cop their buddy? This does not compute for the Great and Powerful Trixie. Why would JaeReed only be a lean?

Two deaths means possibility of multiball or serial killer. I think Koggz is right in that we have to play this cautiously. The cop might have been on opposite faction or something (not sure if this fits flavor-wise).
As far as the jail plan, we don't know for sure that town can break anyone else out, let alone two people, so it's best to tread carefully there.

Is it a coincidence that Grovyle is dead?

Night action kills would have been sent by scum before my supposed guilt was announced,

so it's not like scum!karnos could have chosen to kill Grovyle after realize JaeReed's cop on me

.

Can we talk about this? It's sus considering there were two kills. Is that an admission to his scum team killing Grovyle (pre-planned defense?), or is it more likely they killed Drixx?

Not voting til party leader is ready to end the day.

@The Great and Powerful Trixie the thing you thought was a pants drop last night actually wasn't - there was no relation. I was told the thing related to it wasn't used, either. I hope that's not too cryptic.

[JaeReed]

The Great and Powerful Trixie understands what you say and nods. However while untrue it may be the reason Grovyle was killed. Do you understand why The Great and Powerful Trixie thinks this? Or do you think the Great and Powerful Trixie is on track or off track?

The Great and Powerful Trixie will consider multiball overnight. The Great and Powerful Trixie sees that point.

The Great and Powerful Trixie might be on to something, but I'm not sure whether it's a stretch or not, as I've never had to look out for that before. The Great and Powerful Trixie would know better than I on how scum play and motivations for making such kills. I just look for "who were they scumreading?" and go from there.

The Great and Powerful Trixie does not believe there could be an SK because of flavor and Lonestar or Aztechnology.

Noted.

[JaeReed]

If we do choose to go with the koggz jailbreak plan
we can also do it without the jailbreaker having to claim
by simply having everyone agree to the plan we can assume that if town can break koggz out it will happen
this way wont be roleblocked etc
and if no town has jailbreak or if jailbreaker for some reason chooses not to use ability then koggz will exit jail naturally

FYI, I can read prison chat. This could be useful if you are planning to do something with the prison, but at this point I'm all setup to be quick-lynched by scum so I'm afraid my talent won't be of any value in the near future.

What was Space Cowboy's reaction to being sent to prison? Can you sum up how that went down with Menno going in soon after?

Of note the Great and Powerful Trixie received a gun

. The Great and Powerful Trixie needs time to read the responses today to see what the Great and Powerful Trixie should do. Please do not quick hammer until The Great and Powerful Trixie is ready.

If that means what I think it means, I have a proposal. Actually, even if it doesn't mean what I think it means, the idea stands.

Please don't lynch me today. Vig kill me, however you can. I get why you all want to lynch me, the idea of a framer is pretty unlikely, but it's the only thing that makes sense given all I know.

However, I am sure town is on the road to doom if you merely send me to prison and fail to see a flip which would absolutely prove that a framer or similar mechanic exists. If I am going down, so be it, but let my death serve a purpose and expose the scum JaeReed (assuming they alone decided to cop me, nobody answered my question).

Please, kill me so you can see me flip green. If you send me to prison and we are handing the game over to scum.

This might not be a bad idea.

Karnos, I didn't decide alone. Grovyle was against the check, Drixx was in the run (he infiltrated) but I don't remember him stating an opinion on who to check. I hashed it out with The Great and Powerful Trixie. It was between you or Worldzmine. It was set on a timer for 1 minute before night end in case you were town and scum had you targeted for a kill in order to make the kill attempt fail.

[JaeReed]

....The Great and Powerful Trixie lovingly questions what JaeReed has been smoking and if they will share.

Translation:

The Great and Powerful Trixie Bucks their legs upwards and neighs loudly begging for an explanation of why vigging Karnos is a good idea.

The Great and Powerful Trixie is curious as to if confirmed scum Karnos is telling the truth though. The Great and Powerful Trixie supposes Koggz could confirm? The Great and Powerful Trixie says it couldn't hurt to keep hearing the story.

Humor me. If scum had the power to view the mission topic, do you think it's a stretch to assume that they would have realized I was going to choose karnos? Especially with how concerned I was in helping you get your reads sorted and the fact that we both found his play off due to meta reasons.

My main concern about this is I've seen Nacho talk his way out of a guilty before. But Nacho was fairly calm in the game where he was guiltied. I don't believe his first reaction was an emotional "no fuck you the guy who copped me is scum" but rather he was trying to work with that person to figure out where things could have gone wrong with their result. Karnos is eager to be vigged which could indicate a scum bodyguard or bulletproof or something if he's scum, or if town it could indicate that something fucked with the result (meaning either one of us is scum as he suggests, or someone could read the mission thread and knew what was going to happen).

It would be nice to have an actual flip from karnos to know for sure.

[JaeReed]

Koggz your setup of PTs ability... Does that have to be during the day phase or can you instantaneously set it up during night phase if you wanted to?

[JaeReed]

@Koggz Is it one shot? Does it happen immediately when you send in the action at night or do you have to queue it up? For example, if someone was sent to prison, and broke out during the night phase, would you be able to set them up with a PT during that night phase after they broke out?

@D&D/ABR/Random is there any confirmation that the way to trigger the prison break is via a mission?

[JaeReed]

....The Great and Powerful Trixie lovingly questions what JaeReed has been smoking and if they will share.

Translation:

The Great and Powerful Trixie Bucks their legs upwards and neighs loudly begging for an explanation of why vigging Karnos is a good idea.

The Great and Powerful Trixie is curious as to if confirmed scum Karnos is telling the truth though. The Great and Powerful Trixie supposes Koggz could confirm? The Great and Powerful Trixie says it couldn't hurt to keep hearing the story.

Humor me. If scum had the power to view the mission topic, do you think it's a stretch to assume that they would have realized I was going to choose karnos? Especially with how concerned I was in helping you get your reads sorted and the fact that we both found his play off due to meta reasons.

My main concern about this is I've seen Nacho talk his way out of a guilty before. But Nacho was fairly calm in the game where he was guiltied. I don't believe his first reaction was an emotional "no fuck you the guy who copped me is scum" but rather he was trying to work with that person to figure out where things could have gone wrong with their result. Karnos is eager to be vigged which could indicate a scum bodyguard or bulletproof or something if he's scum, or if town it could indicate that something fucked with the result (meaning either one of us is scum as he suggests, or someone could read the mission thread and knew what was going to happen).

It would be nice to have an actual flip from karnos to know for sure.

Would a flip be awesome? The Great and Powerful Trixie believes so. It is more about risk and whether it is worth it. The Great and Powerful Trixie thinks it is always dumb to not lynch conf!scum.

The Great and Powerful Trixie thinks if scum could see the topic doesn't think that is a stretch no. It could be another reason for the Grovyle kill since Grovyle townread Karnos. However as KlingonCelt said the Great and Powerful Trixie doesn't see a framer on a public cop.

Bodyguard bulletproof redirector a Titus shenanigans could be a ton of shit. If you are so concerned about him talking his way out why not lynch him here today? The Great and Powerful Trixie is confused. They blame the Blue Moon.

Last sentence, Math.

I know it's generally the correct play to always lynch a guilty but karnos doesn't look like caught scum. A flip would make me feel a lot less paranoid about the whole thing.

I'm also wondering if I shouldn't just do the thing I did last night in this thread and go ahead with that. Thoughts?

[JaeReed]

Also, in the interest of transparency, the bounty on WorldzMine is indeed a real bounty.

There is a reward, if he is lynched, for the fifth player on the wagon to vote for him. Doublevoting the following day or 1X bulletproof. So there is another reason to vig kill me, if you must, so that you can actually lynch WorldzMine later and collect the bounty. As far as I read my role, it doesn't matter if I am already dead, the reward should still occur.

I'll have moe time to post tomorrow, and I can go over more details of my role and various happenings in prison chat, if there is interest.

Karnos, does the bounty persist through multiple days?

Yeah, I'd like more info. Especially regarding the prison chat. What do Menno and Space Cowboy think about this?

[JaeReed]

ABR any specific reason you want to be with jaereed?

We are both widely townread and were on different successful missions last night, so we are able to be on the same mission tonight.

Btw, our mission was sabotaged by scum last night, they made the rolls more difficult, but we still managed to succeed.

UNVOTE:

Who is vigging who?

How do you know it was sabotaged? Were you informed? We weren't informed what our rolls were, but Drixx slot did infiltrate the mission.

Math is, they received a gun last night. Also, they failed the restriction again. Just skim the name, man

[JaeReed]

Nah im not reading mathblades posts until she drops the stupid PR.

*they

And they don't need to do it for the rest of today since they failed.

We were informed in the pt that scum sabotaged the run, making it harder.

Huh, that's interesting.

Did you guys continue to attempt to sort each other? Any idea on whether it was someone

on

the run, or someone outside of it?

[JaeReed]

I'm waiting for Koggz to get confirmation on how the PT works before I decide, Math.

[JaeReed]

So the question becomes what was so special about Karnos's posting it requires a day framer.

Holy shit Math you're right. Karnos investigate would have resolved before any night actions. I am fucking dumb.

[JaeReed]

SC was vigged, why did he go to jail as a result instead of flipping? This won't also happen with a karnos vig? What am I missing/not understanding here?

This is also a good question. I need to talk to Menno about this.

[JaeReed]

So the question becomes what was so special about Karnos's posting it requires a day framer.

Holy shit Math you're right. Karnos investigate would have resolved before any night actions. I am fucking dumb.

I'm not following the logic.

The order of events:

1. Night begins. Actions sent.

2. Missions.

3. Mission results/rewards.

4. Mission reward result.

5. Night ends.

So you are saying that actions submit in step 1 can't possibly effect results revealed in step 4?

I submit, as evidence to the contrary:

ABR any specific reason you want to be with jaereed?

We are both widely townread and were on different successful missions last night, so we are able to be on the same mission tonight.

Btw, our mission was sabotaged by scum last night, they made the rolls more difficult, but we still managed to succeed.

UNVOTE:

Who is vigging who?

&

We were informed in the pt that scum sabotaged the run, making it harder.

Unless ABR is lying scum, that should put the nail in the coffin for this crazy theory that night scum actions couldn't possibly effect the mission reward results. We already know that night scum actions sabotaged the mission itself, which occurred BEFORE the reward results.

That's not evidence. We knew that scum could affect the rolls on a mission, and I highly doubt that's a night action thing. That only means that it's more likely there was scum in {Random, D&D, ABR} sabotaging the mission from the inside. Which makes the chances of Random being scum increase for me because I put him in there A) because he said he wanted to be in a run since he had access to another PT as well, B) for D&D and ABR to get a read on him because he had been pretty null for me, and C) to get the stats well rounded enough to give the team a decent chance. Though there's a chance that I'm off on my townread instead (which Random if town should be looking into but he said he townread both of them).

If that

was

an action it could have been submitted during D1 in a manner like "sabotage the second mission" so I still don't see the point there. Someone framing you during D1 would have to be smoking something pretty strong.

We didn't narrow things down definitively until quite late in the night in any case, there were only a few hours left, then I put you on a timer to be copped, with the choices being between Worldz and you. I forgot that it would have resolved before any night actions did. Like, what you are arguing is literally that me or Math are scum. But Math didn't know for sure that I would follow through on their preference or just flip a coin or what. It was very heavily implied that I wanted to help my townreads get their reads sorted, but Worldz was also stated as a decent check, and with grovyle townreading you I could very easily have gone for Worldz instead.

I'm townreading Math, and I know I'm not scum. So the only option for me that involves you being town was that someone could read the mission thread and mess with the result through night actions. Which I'd forgotten would be impossible because you flipped during the night. I really doubt we have a day framer. A night one I coulda bought. Like, even Math couldn't have known for certain that I chose you iirc, just heavily suspected. So that means you're levelling the accusation of being scum solely on me, and I ALSO have to have a framing ability that works whenever I activate it (or my supposed scum team would have to). I can't see it.

Oh btw, while I'm thinking about Math and Karnos, Koggz you said you couldn't see town motivation for wanting a lynch over vig. While that might be true for a lot of people what you need to think about is whether it's an opinion town

MathBlade

would have. Because I did a double take too before I realized that to Math, the cop result is as good as a flip (unsure whether this is still the case, but at the time this was the conclusion I came to). You need to take into account personality. For Math, I don't believe that was a scummy thing to push.

[JaeReed]

@ABR were you informed after the mission or before the mission that scum had sabotaged it?

[JaeReed]

I dont care if mathblade is not selected for a mission. Shes not a townread.

And ABR also drinks the Blue Moon. Everyone is getting drunk lol.

You think that its unreasonable for any player to not have you as a townread?

No. I don't. I think you have played with me enough that either a) you are derping and drinking Blue Moon or B) You're scum. I don't think you are scum so the most likely option is you are derping. So I think it is reasonable for someone who doesn't know me to not townread me yet. However you I think should have a strong indication I am town.

Are you factoring in what grovyle and I said last night? That could be the reason?

[JaeReed]

I dont care if mathblade is not selected for a mission. Shes not a townread.

And ABR also drinks the Blue Moon. Everyone is getting drunk lol.

You think that its unreasonable for any player to not have you as a townread?

No. I don't. I think you have played with me enough that either a) you are derping and drinking Blue Moon or B) You're scum. I don't think you are scum so the most likely option is you are derping. So I think it is reasonable for someone who doesn't know me to not townread me yet. However you I think should have a strong indication I am town.

Are you factoring in what grovyle and I said last night? That could be the reason?

I don't follow the question?

Where we commented on our reads on you and what was affecting that.

[JaeReed]

No objections to Math lieutenant. Why do you townread PV? I have trouble reading low content posters. At best he's nulltownish, more on the side of null for me.

I kinda want to go ahead with lynching Karnos but I have reason to not want to be on the run. I'm just gonna full claim this shit. I'm drunk so it seems like a good idea and it stops us from turning in circles trying to figure shit out. I'm one of the two people who can escape from prison. So I either have to be vigged or lynched in order to get us 50% of the way to our condition for flips. I full claimed that last night in thread but the only person who survived was Math. We were gonna try to work it in a way that VCA would be useful too but see: Math only remaining living player I claimed to. I figured we'd lynch me today or tomorrow, but karnos came back guilty as well. So, up to town whether we're lynching me today and holding off on the karnos vig.

Basically my thought process is: I can confirm what karnos is saying about the prison chat, I can check in with Menno and SC on what their opinions/reads are and try to get my own read on them based on what's in prison chat, and I can get their opinion on who to break out if town ends up with that option.

That would require me breaking out during the night phase so scum doesn't just nightkill me to deny information (probably after 24 hours of nightstart), and koggz setting up a PT between me and someone Koggz thinks is town while at the same time I send a night message to someone I think is town. My thoughts on this are: If scum have a roleblocker or something to stop me from sending the night message, they can't also stop koggz setting up the PT, so there'll be a backup if I die. I'll tell both people a secret code to confirm them. (Also any town protective role could be on me if they so desire, scum might have strongman or more importantly, watcher, so use your own judgement or a coin flip or something if you wish)

So: do we lynch me and hold off on karnos either vig or lynch, or lynch karnos, or lynch someone else and vig karnos?

Quick addition with that plan btw: both Cerb and fb were hesitant about lynching a townread on purpose. I think this plan is fine though? As it is I'm useful to scum kept alive because we're not getting flips in part because of me. Once I'm dead or used my escape then I'm useless to them, and a threat since I have seen inside the prison chat.

Sorry Math <3 I drop my pants a lot. I wanted to make this a game of trust like I usually do with neighbourhoods but the rest of my "masonry" died so I figured it was better to just be open with everyone.

[JaeReed]

Spoiler: talking to confscum

Okay, that is useful. We know grovyle and drixx were town. Either you or mathblade are scum. Thinking about it, it doesn't matter who suggested my name, it would have been obvious to frame the cop target regardless of who it was.

This makes no sense
If its a Framer that messed with you like you've been pushing, then "math or Jae must be scum" doesn't fit at all
You're just scum flailing

How do you not get what I am saying?

Scum framed me BECAUSE I was going to be copped. If scum knew I was going to be copped, someone in the mission told them. of the 4 players in the mission, 2 died and flipped town. QED one of the remaining two players, Jaereed or MathBlade, are scum. Possibly both.

Unless you honestly believe scum would have some sort of spy ability to view the mission PT without being on the mission, the only other possibility is a scum JaeReed or a scum MathBlade.

This would be more believable if you were making half an effort to sort either of us, to be honest. All you're doing is saying one of us is confscum over and over again. I can't imagine any town sitting there with his thumbs up his ass like this the whole time instead of going through the content and saying "ok I think they're both scum together for x reasons" or "ok I think this person is more scummy/towny for x reasons". You are looking like you're just trying to buy yourself time.

Also, in the interest of transparency, the bounty on WorldzMine is indeed a real bounty.

There is a reward, if he is lynched, for the fifth player on the wagon to vote for him. Doublevoting the following day or 1X bulletproof. So there is another reason to vig kill me, if you must, so that you can actually lynch WorldzMine later and collect the bounty. As far as I read my role, it doesn't matter if I am already dead, the reward should still occur.

I'll have moe time to post tomorrow, and I can go over more details of my role and various happenings in prison chat, if there is interest.

This looks like scum trying to create interest in a last ditch mislynch
Which is lol

Does it? So do you think MathBlade is probably scum then? I picked Worldz based on MathBlade's scum read on him, and PoE knowing his other scum reads are town, except Koggz, but I have a strong feeling koggz is town, so defaulted to worldz.

Read the day opening. There was an accusation on wordz written out by the mod. Nobody has counterclaimed my accuser role. Does it make sense for you that a bounty hunter would be able to set a bounty on someone (accusation) and there wouldn't be any actual bounty to collect (the reward)?

I don't really care if worldz is lynched or not, but if he is lynched I want the bounty going to town, rather than scum. I want to lynch MathBlade or Jaereed today, and hopefully I'll get it after I am vigged and flip town.

Why would you trying to push people to lynch Worldz instead of you make

MathBlade

scum? You think Math needs to have perfect reads to be town? For all we know you chose him because you thought he was mislynchable if he's town. Like, this is stupid. D&D didn't bring into question the validity of your claim, what was brought into question was your motivation for trying to push the Worldz lynch because of your bounty on them.

I'm fine with vigging karnos. He can get out of jail if we lynch him.

The only problem I have with this is possible night bullshit like redirectors and scum docs being possible.

-dragons

This is unbelievable. The idea of a false guilty is something you call BS on, when it's a well known mechanic used in games and listed in the wiki, but when it comes to being killed outright you don't trust the idea because you think I'm going to magically reflect the kill onto someone else?

Do you really think my role is an accuser, + bulletproof ninja, + kill redirector, +read prison/astral/matrix, +scum nightkiller, +scum chat? Doesn't that seem like a bit much?

False guilties are as common as redirectors & bulletproof.

Being able to read the PTs means jack all, for one. I wouldn't put it past Varsoon to give that kind of a leg up to scum. Secondly, scum nightkills tend to be factional, unless you're arguing that the two kills means scum has a second person on their team that made a kill. Scum chat is a given and factional. Not sure what you're trying to get at there aside from padding your shade throwing.

As far as bulletproof ninja...wut? Where the fuck did you get that from? What we're arguing about here is a redirector. Which we're not even arguing that it's

you

. All you need is a scumbuddy with redirector abilities. You literally tried to make that sound as ridiculous as possible when it's not. Your role would likely be accuser + read PTs. Your factional abilities would be the scum factional kill and chat. YOUR BUDDIES abilities would include redirector or bodyguard or something of the sort. That's the theory. I know you can think things through a little more than you're making out right now.

That's not evidence. We knew that scum could affect the rolls on a mission, and I highly doubt that's a night action thing.

Okay, you are turning this into an argument of semantics. Obviously scum had to submit some communication to sabotage the mission, and the mission occured at night. Thus it was a night action, in my words. In the same way, my theory is that scum shared the info that I was going to be copped in scum PT, and some scum framer framed me. Call it a day action if you want, it occurred at night and had effects at night so I would call it a night action.

How is this an argument of semantics? I'm arguing that scum probably affected the mission by

being on it

. The additional theory I threw out was in the case of all of {Random, ABR, D&D} being town, there was a possibility that scum just had to submit during the day to be effective at nightstart "sabotage a mission".

Scum couldn't have shared the info that you were going to be copped in order to have you framed because it was only decided like 3 hours before daystart, and you were then set on a timer to be copped one minute before daystart. They would have had to directly take control of a buddies action, or have the framer be a factional action. It would also have to be an action that happened instantly when submitted (hence the use of "day action" but yes it happened at night if it happened at all).

We didn't narrow things down definitively until quite late in the night in any case, there were only a few hours left, then I put you on a timer to be copped, with the choices being between Worldz and you. I forgot that it would have resolved before any night actions did. Like, what you are arguing is literally that me or Math are scum. But Math didn't know for sure that I would follow through on their preference or just flip a coin or what. It was very heavily implied that I wanted to help my townreads get their reads sorted, but Worldz was also stated as a decent check, and with grovyle townreading you I could very easily have gone for Worldz instead.

So you are a scum framer, you can frame anyone you want, and your scum buddy is telling you there is a good chance karnos is going to be copped. Please explain how you would logically choose to frame anyone else other than karnos in that situation.

If you have knowledge that player X is going to be investigated, you would absolutely frame that player if you are trying to win, no question.

Except Math did not know for sure I was going to target you, and it was only worked out with not that much time left on the clock. Considering it was around like midnight for most people your argument then becomes

the framer could only be me or Math

. I don't disagree that if there was scum on the mission they would choose to frame you because it appeared that I was leaning that way, but the timing makes it extremely specific and less and less likely to me the more I think about it.

I know I'm town. I'm not going to be talked into a fucking conspiracy theory with regards to my read on Math. They're most likely just town like I read them as. Which means either someone from the scum team could read the mission PT and was around 3 hours before, while

also having a framing ability

or you're just confscum like the cop result returned.

SC was vigged, why did he go to jail as a result instead of flipping? This won't also happen with a karnos vig? What am I missing/not understanding here?

MathBlade said they had a GUN. A gun kills, it doesn't send to jail, so that is the assumption I am working from.

Maybe MathBlade can clarify on how exactly the ability is worded.

I'd be more interested in Menno's wording for how he sent someone to jail considering that was played off as a dayvig. But you haven't thought of that at all. You're not thinking about the game, really. You're thinking about how to get mislynches off on myself/math.

[JaeReed]

Karnos, I didn't decide alone. Grovyle was against the check, Drixx was in the run (he infiltrated) but I don't remember him stating an opinion on who to check. I hashed it out with The Great and Powerful Trixie. It was between you or Worldzmine. It was set on a timer for 1 minute before night end in case you were town and scum had you targeted for a kill in order to make the kill attempt fail.

Okay, that is useful. We know grovyle and drixx were town. Either you or mathblade are scum. Thinking about it, it doesn't matter who suggested my name, it would have been obvious to frame the cop target regardless of who it was.

This makes no sense
If its a Framer that messed with you like you've been pushing, then "math or Jae must be scum" doesn't fit at all
You're just scum flailing

Can you elaborate on why it doesn't fit from your point of view?

Who should be on the next missions?

Math, Jae, you, Koggz, random, us, Sooper
The pool of players is already pretty small which sucks

You townread both of the people you were in a mission with last night despite scum sabotaging it? Can you go into that? Do you think scum sabotaging it was something they could submit during the night that happened instantly, or something lined up during the dayphase on D1?

[JaeReed]

Seriously karnos you are so obviously scum. People can check what you refer to; you are aware, right?

-Scout

Yes and? I've seen that it dozens of games, it doesn't mean anything special. Mod needed more time to resolve issues and didn't want to unlock the thread and have dead players talking, what the hell does that prove?

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not. The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

[JaeReed]

The whole "Night continues for 1 more minute. " is a red herring, because night continuing had nothing to do with the deadline to submit actions, the deadline was several hours prior.

No it is not. The ability was such that I could have copped you as soon as we reached our reward choice. I copped you one minute before night actions resolved. If I didn't I'm pretty sure we would have lost the reward.

Also, this could only be selected once per game. It's an instant cop. You are conf scum.

[JaeReed]

@Worldz if you want to be townread then do something towards solving the game instead of pushing how you should be on runs due to stats or how you "townslipped" (you didn't). Analyze, give stances, do something is isn't centered around you wanting to be on a freaking run, man.

[JaeReed]

By my knowledge, there is a 50% chance you are scum, so that makes me nervous about accepting this plan at face value. Who is to say you will be honest about what was said in prison chat?

Is this some last ditch effort to stop me from getting vigged and flipping town, revealing the investigation for the sham it is?

@MathBlade

, you can take the shot. I don't want scum getting away like this.

You're acting like my only reason for going to prison is for confirming you were telling the truth about what was in there. We still need the escape from me to reach halfway to our condition for flips.

I don't doubt you were telling the truth because even as scum it's not in your best interest to lie about that right now, given you can't be sure someone else in town doesn't have access as well. What I want is to interact with the two in prison for their opinions, confirm that you were indeed telling the truth about the contents of prison chat, and get us halfway to our flip condition.

[JaeReed]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not.

The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Except it's provably not in this game. Night deadline was aprox 12:30AM, night actually ended aprox 4:00AM.

You are accusing me of being wrong when I am provably right, while the things you are claiming can't be confirmed by anyone but you.

No, that is due to your time zone for the time stamps. The time listed in the post is the mod's timezone...

[JaeReed]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not. The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Because from my perspective, the cop action occurred after deadline, in the same time frame as all other night actions.

No, it is clear going off the times of the public cop result compared to the flips.

[JaeReed]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not. The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Because from my perspective, the cop action occurred after deadline, in the same time frame as all other night actions.

No, it is clear going off the times of the public cop result compared to the flips.

How so? Because it's shown first in a separate post? It seems like you are making assumptions on something that isn't clearly spelled out. Those assumptions might be reasonable in the absence of contrary evidence, but I have a role card that says you messed up with your assumptions somewhere.

No, that is due to your time zone for the time stamps.

The time listed in the post is the mod's timezone

...

Even if I look at the page on another browser, in which I am not logged onto the forums at all, I still see the deadline being 2+ hours prior to the public cop result post.

Because of the way I know the public cop works and it was confirmed in the mission PT so Math knows it works that way too. Whenever I submitted the action was when it took place any time BEFORE night end. I submitted it ONE MINUTE BEFORE NIGHT END so that scum could not change their kill if for some reason they decided to go for you and you were town. Since it made you unkillable last night too.

[JaeReed]

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

You were unkillable when you were publically copped... "This player that is publicly copped cannot be killed that night." So yes, scum would absolutely want to change their kill if they were targeting you because they would be denied the kill. That's if you were town, which you're not.

The post from the mod, 987 shows it was 1 minute before the deadline. The PTs were locked even though the flips didn't come later because it was late and the mod needed sleep before going through NAR.

[JaeReed]

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. I kind of want to lynch karnos. There's no longer any doubt in my mind about whether the cop investigation could have been messed with. It couldn't have been. I do not believe an instant framer exists in this game. That said, we still need to get my lynch & escape out of the way to get our flips.

I am one of the two people who can escape. A prison break I think will only allow one person to escape. There's a 50% chance I die in a prison break but if I am still alive after one I can still use my ability to escape. My role says nothing about being able to escape during the break if I live, on the contrary, it suggests I'd still be in prison even if I survived the prison break. I can't remember who it was that suggested that more than one person would be able to escape during the break but that's my answer to that.

[JaeReed]

It does not prove anything. What it proves is that it's seemingly your personal playstyle to post as you read instead of in one post. That is it.

If you cannot see where most people are getting their reads from when they drop them, then you are not analyzing people's posts. Or playing the game, really. If you asked people about a read other than yourself it'd help. Or gave your own reads and reasons.

Anything

to indicate that you have some interest in solving the game if you're town, because so far the lack of such, combined with the eagerness to "prove" you're town based off something that really doesn't prove anything with regards to your alignment is what is making people read you the way they are.

[JaeReed]

was the copping naturally public?
koggz assumed cop was public due to the drugs given to jaereed
assuming jaereed used the drugs

only koggz knew the drugs effect until d2

Copping was public, but you seeing the choices I had to choose between wasn't. That was drug effect. If I had chosen the Mr. Johnson one then it still would have been public because of me taking the drug.
Also the passing of my ring wasn't supposed to be loud, that was an effect of the drug The contract I had to do in thread but the rest was supposed to be a silent affair.

@Jae - is your role, presumably, the Prison Break mechanic mentioned in Drixx's role? In my mind that was like a mass breakout rather than one person escaping but I guess they're the same. I understood Drixx's role as: if there's a Prison Break, you have 50% chance of dying and 50% of escaping, because I took it as a mass thing.

I'd rather a Karnos lynch, but not if it won't flip him.

The whole vig thing is kind of dumb because night actions are subject to shenanigans.

Lynching him won't flip him, so what do you think is the best thing to do?

About karnos - I don't understand how a framer would work. It was night, so a day-frame isn't an option, but it was set to resolve before the end of night, so it also couldn't have been affected by a night action?

I basically agree with Scout's reads, which is nice. There's nothing from random in the PT and I want to sort D&D and Worldzmine somewhere because I think there's enough activity to get a feel for them.

-Froot

Ah it was Froot that asked. Yeah so if the prison break happens while I'm in there, presumably I'll still be in there if I don't die on that 50% chance. It says I can still use the ability to escape if I'm still alive. I think the prison break will release one person, and I'm the other person that can escape with my smooth talker ability at no risk to myself that I am aware of. I'll leave prison the moment I use it. My fear is that scum will target me for the nightkill before I can get any information to the thread. The PT + me using a night message I thought would be a good safety net. I don't find it likely that scum have two roleblocking abilities, so one person at least will receive the information I gain from the trip (or my take on it + a paraphrasing to the best of my ability).

And yeah the result on karnos could only have been affected by a framer whose action resolves immediately upon use, and not when the rest of the night actions resolve. Then they would have had to use it between the 3 hours prior to daystart where it was decided it would be Worldz or karnos, and the 1 min prior to daystart where I copped him. Then 1 min later the rest of the night actions were resolved for daystart (or would have been but it was 1am for our mod and I guess Titus needed sleep before going through all the night actions).

Kept the question to PV in there cuz I wanted it on record that I'd like to know the answer to that also.

What's your read on D&D and Worldz now?

@jaereed: i like the way PV questions karnos. Add some gut feel and the lack of people i trust...
Yeah i want them on a mission. Unless you can give me better ideas?

-Scout

Nah PV is good, I think now. 1154 and other posts like that show he's thinking about motivation for actions which I like. Shows he's trying to actively solve the game even if he doesn't post much.

Math is probs town. I wouldn't be surprised if karnos was distancing space cowboy. Vedith could be scum

Why Vedith? I liked the way he pointed out that Yume was posting earlier in the thread. Discussed it with grovyle and that's apparently a towntell for her. Which means he took someone mislynchable off the board for no reason if he's scum, unless there's enough people here that know that about Yume to make it worthwhile to do.

I'll look into the distancing theory.

[JaeReed]

Ta, Math, for the emotional help there. I got dragged into an argument that was shitting up the thread so yeah. Taking a step back to look at other stuff.

I don't think Worldz is a partner for Karnos due to Karnos placing a bounty on him. If I were scum with the ability to place bounties I'd be looking at who is mislynchable not on my team, especially as we don't get flips yet. If we had flips guaranteed I could understand a hard bus like that since neither of them were in particularly good standing, but as it is he'd have nothing to gain from sending his buddy to jail.

So if singleball I think it's likely that Worldz is town, based off Karnos' action in placing a bounty on him.

[JaeReed]

Don't get me started on that ring JaeReed.

That is quite possibly one of the hardest post restrictions I have ever seen. Thank God that was loud or my posting would have made no sense at all. If I ever pass this restriction I am going to make a much simpler something. Still no idea what.

Ahahaha sorry <3 I didn't realize it would be that hard when I decided to do it. I was mostly...trying to annoy people >.> Which is also why I took the jazz because I figured my actions as party leader being loud would be annoying to people too xP

I am quite possibly one of the worst people xP I'm sorry it culminated in ABR not paying attention to you

[JaeReed]

Don't get me started on that ring JaeReed.

That is quite possibly one of the hardest post restrictions I have ever seen. Thank God that was loud or my posting would have made no sense at all. If I ever pass this restriction I am going to make a much simpler something. Still no idea what.

Ahahaha sorry <3 I didn't realize it would be that hard when I decided to do it. I was mostly...trying to annoy people >.> Which is also why I took the jazz because I figured my actions as party leader being loud would be annoying to people too xP

I am quite possibly one of the worst people xP I'm sorry it culminated in ABR not paying attention to you

how did you know you would be loud?

I was told what effect the drug would have if I consumed it upon receiving it.

[JaeReed]

I have nothing to say right now.

Can you give opinions on the plan to lynch me for the escape?
The lynch karnos vs vig karnos?

[JaeReed]

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

You were unkillable when you were publically copped... "This player that is publicly copped cannot be killed that night." So yes, scum would absolutely want to change their kill if they were targeting you because they would be denied the kill. That's if you were town, which you're not.

The post from the mod, 987 shows it was 1 minute before the deadline. The PTs were locked even though the flips didn't come later because it was late and the mod needed sleep before going through NAR.

This is really pissing me off. I'm not sure if you are legitimately mistaken, or just fucking trolling me, but (for the last time) I checked once again. This time, I changed my time zone to pacific time, MATCHING THE MOD TIME ZONE.

976 STILL shows deadline as 12:50AM

978 with your cop reward, STILL occurs after that, at 12:59AM

You are still wrong, and your constant failure to understand this most basic aspect of time makes me really wonder why anyone should believe you about the specifics behind your public cop ability, you could certainly be describing it wrong as well, even if you aren't scum intentionally misleading us.

I'm not going to waste any further time on this particular line of discussion. I know how time works, apparently you don't. The time-stamps on the posts trumps your argument, and you aren't going to be able to change them no matter how hard you try.

Mod gets time to type.
Moving on.

I agree, but then this just seems out of crazyland:

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

I'm just trying to understand JaeReed's logic. There is no time zone where the night deadline is after the cop result, none, zero. Yes, the mod needs time to type, thank you for regurgitating my own thoughts to me, but why didn't point this out when JaeReed was spouting BS about timezones?

OMFG STOP ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WHEN I SET THE FUCKING TIMER BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN I SET IT YOU FUCK.

IT.WAS.SET.FOR.ONE.MINUTE.BEFORE.NIGHT.ENDS.

THE END.

FUCK YOU.

[JaeReed]

On the bright side, Yume's posting... So there's a positive.

@D&D It was this. It's very heavily implied there, especially after I mentioned to FB last night that I found it weird that Yume was posting since I played with Yume twice now, and she has been replaced as both alignments due to inactivity (once on the fallout shelter in Fractals, and once in yuri mafia on here. Once as scum, once as town). FB said that it was a towntell for Yume, so that put this post in a "well Yume's town" light for me. I can't see the scum motivation for Vedith to post this.

Worth noting that FB said it was weird that Vedith didn't gun for him. If you want me to paraphrase everything in the mission PT I can do so but tbh I'd

really

prefer not to bc I'm lazy as fuck. But I will if asked, for anyone who isn't confscum.

[JaeReed]

OMFG STOP ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WHEN I SET THE FUCKING TIMER BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN I SET IT YOU FUCK.

IT.WAS.SET.FOR.ONE.MINUTE.BEFORE.NIGHT.ENDS.

THE END.

FUCK YOU.

I apologize for this. I did not mean to be an ass and I feel like this crossed a line. I'm going to bed; obviously I need to.

[JaeReed]

@jae+math why are you thinking this game is singleball and therefore say 'ok worldzmine is town'? From a balance perspective, 13-4 is scumsided and 14-3 townsided af. Dont write them off as town, seriously.

My post was in the event it's single. I haven't ruled out multi, but math said they believe it's single. Which makes their conclusion of Worldz scum faulty due to the reasons laid out. It's possible for Worldz to be from a different faction but not on the same team as karnos.

[JaeReed]

RE: Potential for scum!Math - Can someone explain why? How?

Please?

@Klingon We didn't lynch Space Cowboy, Menno sent him to jail of his own accord, and then I think Menno was policy lynched for his gambits. The plan is to get us halfway towards our condition to get flips from prison already. There are two people with the ability to break out of prison and I'm one of them. Once no one has the potential to break out anymore (as in the people with the abilities are either dead or used them) then we get flips from prison.
Which means I will either need to die or be lynched to escape at some stage. We can hold off but keep in mind it'll be the only thing that will keep us from getting flips once the prison break happens (assuming someone escapes with that).

[JaeReed]

OMFG STOP ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WHEN I SET THE FUCKING TIMER BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN I SET IT YOU FUCK.

IT.WAS.SET.FOR.ONE.MINUTE.BEFORE.NIGHT.ENDS.

THE END.

FUCK YOU.

Night end and DEADLINE are two different things. Not going to let you get out this now by trying to move the goalposts.

Night ends when the mod opens up the thread for day. Deadline is when no more night actions are accepted.

Submitting your action 1 minute before deadline means jack, it can still be modified by any other night action. Submitting your action 1 minute before night ends means you submit it after the post in which it was revealed, sorry not going to let you get away with that. Either way it means nothing.

I'm not moving the goalposts, dude. You're again arguing semantics. Night end is when the mod stops receiving actions for night. Night end

is

the deadline for night actions. Night end is also day start with most games.

I will try to explain this as clearly as I can.
The public cop ability could be used at any time and your alignment would be revealed instantly. The moment I used the ability. So if I had used it halfway through the night, then the mod would have posted halfway through the night with the cop result. I set for it to be used one minute before night end. Night end is also the deadline for submitting night actions as far as I know for any game.
This meant that one minute before any night actions would be looked at, we would get the results of the cop investigation on you.
How I did this, was to tell the mod I wanted the action of copping you to take place one minute prior to the night end deadline.

In order for that result to be messed with scum would need a framer that acts instantaneously as well, because the cop investigation took place before any standard night actions. The fact that it's a once per game use only makes it more likely that it couldn't have been messed with in that way (I shouldn't play outguess the mod here but I am).

Or here:

@Mod was the cop investigate result on karnos displayed 1 minute prior to when our night actions were due to be submitted and processed for NAR?

[JaeReed]

I can't, Koggz. You'd probably have to ask the mod in PM, but I'd assume that doesn't count as the 2 person thing is specifically about escaping from prison? I don't think sneaking yourself in there and sneaking back out would count as an escape, since you were never formally in there in the first place, if that makes sense?

@ABR what do you mean I don't know what I'm doing? Do you think scum had an instant framer?

[JaeReed]

I think we should lynch Mathblade, because I think you will still try to take her on the run despite many of us (including dead town) who say she's scum. Are you willing to swap her out? If yes, with who?

One dead town who for herself modkilled. We are not lynching mathblade. They're town.

[JaeReed]

*got not for

We lynch karnos today since he's confscum. I will not stand idly by while you try to push a fucking lynch on my strongest townread when every other strong read I have had flip so far has been correct.

{Mathblade, Sooper, D&D}
{PV, Yume, Vedith}
{Random}
{ABR, Klingon, Worldz}
{Karnos}

You have given no reason for Math being scum. One of you/klingon is town and I don't know which one, but there is no case on math because no case can be made on math. Math is town. End of.

@Sooper have you sorted the runs?

[JaeReed]

There is no way RR was one of your strongest townreads. No town had him as such because nothing he said D1 wasn't easily fakeable by him as scum.

Grovyle and Drixx did not have Math as a scum read last night in the mission PT so no. 2 flipped town had them as town and one flipped town had them as scum.

You're trying to lynch town. Karnos is CONFIRMED SCUM and you want to lynch the person who can shoot him to get him to flip over him??? No. Not happening. The only reason I'm not voting karnos right now is to hold off with his inevitable self hammer til sooper has the runs sorted.

Math.is.town.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Worldz

I can get behind this.

Not lynching Math or PV. ABR needs to stop trying to control who goes on missions.

Scout, it's Math's mission that koggz was in right? I have decent confidence in Yume as town based off fb's read of her and some of the stuff she's said so far, and her stats seem roughly similar to koggz, so my suggestion is to look at her posts again since I think she'd be a good replacement.

[JaeReed]

I have nothing more to say. Still think Math is town, still think karnos needs a bullet. Lynch me tomorrow for the halfway to flips condition.

Math was not on the immediate radar for Drixx or grovyle so they had no reason to kill either of them. As SK that would be shooting themselves in the foot, so no. At least I can see a little more of ABR's thought process there now.

Why PV? Froot gave reasons at least, does anyone else have anything?

[JaeReed]

Oh yeah I can't remember if I said this but it is VERY weird that Jae took D&D. Reading up now

Because?

[JaeReed]

It would help if you actually gave half a reason why anyone was scum.

What's the VC at now?

[JaeReed]

Combining that with what ABR said makes no sense. Between the lack of content from Worldz, Peregrine V, and Random's defense of ABR (which is sketchy as hell) scum has got to be in these three.

ABR always is smart as either alignment. The fact he is completely messing up simple things confuses me. I also don't like how Kling is town for supposedly having the message. What is possible is that they pick up the message off their corpse if Kling killed Drixx. After all we only have conf scum word for it.

Who is "confirmed" Scum?

Me? No, I'm not Scum at all.

ABR?

No. That he sent the letter to Drixx indicates that he's Town.

Please don't use the word "confirmed," btw, that's a Mod-only word.

Karnos. Since he claimed the Drixx kill.

[JaeReed]

Blah.

VOTE: WorldzMine

Rather have my vote in the right place even if it's not going to matter anyway.

Go sheep ABR, I'm not voting for PV anymore so he can be scum!

Flail harder scum. Now the question becomes if you are doing this because forced or because you are fucking with my head.

Cakez, this is my issue with joining PV wagon & just trusting your read there. Confscum was on it. Now he's not after being called out on it. See: fucking with head.

[JaeReed]

Does Daenerys head have the same view?

[JaeReed]

Fine, what's your read on Random? He dodged my question and threw shade randomly.

UNVOTE:

[JaeReed]

PV is town because
- his tone sounds genuine.
- his 'fuck off abr you dont know what you are doing' is a town reaction

You described worldz, although its you hes telling to fuck off.

No. You just cherrypicked that fucking towncase. There was more to it than that, and if you think that part was sufficient then you wouldn't be on PV to start with. So no. I'm not letting you get away with that bullshit.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: random

Sorry if you felt insulted ABR, that wasn't my intent.

[JaeReed]

You may post here. Just in case it wasn't explicit before.

Will prod timers continue to run?

[JaeReed]

@ Jaread did you answer this before or not : you copped karnos with consulting others or just did it alone? I need this info for my catchup table I'm making on Astrid pt. I will post the final table in here. I just want to make sure I'm not missing claims and details help me out please.

I copped Karnos after talking it through with math. The cop occured before Night Action Resolution, so any framer would have to be an instant one, if there is a framer. I had a lot of back and forth with Karnos before realizing that, and have come to the conclusion that it's extremely unlikely that an instant framer exists, especially as the public cop ability prevented that person from being killed that night, and is a one shot for the whole game.

I claimed one of the two that can escape from prison once lynched, so we need to lynch me tomorrow for the escape so we can get closer to getting flips.
Karnos claimed to be able to put bounties on people, which would then make the 5th person on the wagon if that person is lynched get a PR (I think it was bulletproof?). He also claimed to be able to see PTs, including the Astral, Matrix, and Prison PTs.

Not sure anyone else alive & not in prison has fullclaimed at this stage.

[JaeReed]

@FA put the stuff regarding Klingon receiving ABR's message to Drixx in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

@Albert B. Rampage

- Who did you send a letter to Night 1? This is very important.

Drixx my biggest townread.

Okay.

Drixx my biggest townread.

Okay.

Significance?

What are your reasons?

Somehow ABR's letter wound up in my mailbox.

There's nothing much in it, the usual "Ohai, I haz Townz I thinks u haz townz 2" stuff.
If ABR were Scum, he wouldn't send a letter to someone he was going to kill.

"Shadowfire"

Drixx my biggest townread.

Okay.

Significance?

What are your reasons?

Somehow ABR's letter wound up in my mailbox.

There's nothing much in it, the usual "Ohai, I haz Townz I thinks u haz townz 2" stuff.
If ABR were Scum, he wouldn't send a letter to someone he was going to kill.

What makes you think he would kill you? And if you weren't the intended recipient then how did you get it? The first post says that shouldn't happen. So let's assume ABR sent this to you. Then it would make more sense to do so from a buddying or info leak perspective. I agree he wouldn't send it to someone he was going to kill but I definitely do not think this makes ABR town. ABR is a strategic player. I don't see him doing just spam as either alignment. But especially town.

I know what I use my message for each night and it sure isn't spam.

I never said anything about ABR killing me. Drixx is dead. I thought it was possible that ABR killed him. But would you send a letter to someone you were going to kill? I wouldn't. So ABR sending the letter to Drixx means ABR did not kill Drixx.

Then Karnos confessed to killing Drixx, so the letter didn't matter.

And nevermind how I got the letter, it's part of the game's mechanics, through a certain player.

I had code words in my letter to Drixx. Use some code words to authenticate that you did in fact receive my letter and not someone pretending to be me.

Post 1398: "Shadowfire"

I thought you'd post your response word but you didn't.

Here's the other Drixx word: "Mine"

Now, post your response word, please.

I am not sure how you see ABR as town when they are suggesting that an SK exists when the OP set up posts say town or scum. There were two colors green or red. Ergo single ball. I bring this up and ABR doesn't interact with it at all. ABR's slot might as well be replaced with an RNG robot that declared a slot is scum and repeats it.

However I also find it completely weird what KlingonCelt is doing. It looks like blatant message/rolefishing. It seems really odd and scary that ABR said the message went to Drixx but KlingonCelt claimed to have received a copy when redirection is impossible.

VOTE: Unvote

Something is going on there that I think will clarify which of the two are scum. Because while I think that ABR's responses are shitty I have to determine where it is just his arrogant incorrect self or if KlingonCelt is scum.

Neither of us is Scum.

ABR really did send a letter to Drixx. That he sent a letter to Drixx makes it very unlikely that he's Scum.

This isn't a matter of redirection, my getting the note doesn't mean there's a redirector.

It's specific to someone's PM, some action (like the intended recipient being killed? I don't know) can trigger a letter to be forwarded to a different address. Not exactly the same as redirection.

[JaeReed]

There wasn't anything that I could see in his role PM to make that happen. Also worth noting is that Drixx infiltrated our mission last night. The one with myself, Math, and grovyle. So 2/4 on that mission got nightkilled, after I claimed the prison escape part of my role to them. I decided to come out with that in thread in the end because I didn't know if scum had been reading the thread anyway, in which case it's better that we all know what went down, I think.

My role ties in with the mechanics in that after no more people are capable of escaping prison we will get flips from the imprisoned. Only 2 people may escape prison. So I am one of the two that can do it, so I need to either die or be lynched so I can use that ability. That only makes us 1/2 though. Not sure who the 2nd is or how that gets triggered. If there's a prison break while I'm in jail and I don't die, then I can escape after it. So presumably the other thing is a prison break that allows one person to escape.

[JaeReed]

Well wait a minute here.

If McMenno likely scum as was likely based on Karnos's play.
Random likely scum due to posting other places and not here
Karnos is conf scum so he can die in a hail of bullets

So likely one scum outside of jail still. Maybe two because this does seem like role madness.

I think that random's lurksit on Worldz probably makes them town of Random lurksacing is scum. If anyone hammered besides Karnos then I wouldn't be in such a quandary about whether or not Random is scum.

@JaeReed who are you scum readinf of the alive and imprisoned?

@Sooper Somethibg doesn't feel right about this random lynch. I think PV is one of the two scum here and Klingon and/or D&D are scum with PV.

@JaeReed poke a million pokes.

I'm a little hesitant to put that out there with us going into night so soon.

[JaeReed]

Well wait a minute here.

If McMenno likely scum as was likely based on Karnos's play.
Random likely scum due to posting other places and not here
Karnos is conf scum so he can die in a hail of bullets

So likely one scum outside of jail still. Maybe two because this does seem like role madness.

I think that random's lurksit on Worldz probably makes them town of Random lurksacing is scum. If anyone hammered besides Karnos then I wouldn't be in such a quandary about whether or not Random is scum.

@JaeReed who are you scum readinf of the alive and imprisoned?

@Sooper Somethibg doesn't feel right about this random lynch. I think PV is one of the two scum here and Klingon and/or D&D are scum with PV.

@JaeReed poke a million pokes.

I'm a little hesitant to put that out there with us going into night so soon.

Actually, refer to last night. 154. Remove all dead people when checking who I'm referring to.

The person on the top tier stays where they are.
The leftmost person on the second tier stays where they are. The right person on that tier I now think is more likely to be scum than not.
I'm unsure of the person on the third tier currently due to the way things went down with the rightmost on the 5th tier. That person I think might be town, but it's not a particularly strong read. I'd say it's one or the other.
The 4th tier, the rightmost is probably ok to stay where they are, but the other person dropped a tier.
The 5th tier, the leftmost is probably town, leaning that way on the rightmost too, but refer to what I just said about the third tier person.
The person on the second last tier moved to the top tier.
The leftmost on the bottom tier is probably around the third tier...sadly.

Refer to 128 for my thoughts on one prisoner. 130 and 131 for my thoughts on the other.

[JaeReed]

@FA I asked what would be most beneficial to Math's reads for a confirm either way and they offered 3 people, 2 scumreads and 1 townread. Between the scumreads it was Worldz and Karnos. They said the cop that would crack the game open most would probably be Worldz but only if they could read Karnos correctly without bias. They hinted that would be hard for them, so I chose Karnos. I did not tell them who I chose.

Party members were announced at hammer end of D1.
Just did a search through RR and Drixx's ISO in the mission PT and neither of them mentioned the matrix pt.

[JaeReed]

So Karnos was a traitor? That means the flip clears no one. The bounty on Worldz could very well have been to get a successful scum lynch and signal to scum that he's traitor. The copping could have been myself/math not knowing he was traitor.

Looks like he mostly claimed his role correctly. He left out the bit about being bulletproof if Worldz was town (assuming it's only if town because it specifies he may be killed in the scum bounty section). So the question is whether he bussed with the bounty to make himself known to scum, or he had it on town to make himself BP. Doesn't look like he could read the mission PTs so he shouldn't have known he was getting copped, which means that didn't factor into his decision on who to place the bounty on.

What karnos did D2:
Claimed there is scum confirmed in myself/Math due to the copping on him.
Claimed the bounty on Worldz.
Requested to be vigged instead of lynched, so that we could claim Worldz bounty.
Changed mind and was ok with being lynched to apparently flip himself from prison. Unconfirmed whether prisoners can actually do this.
Claimed the Drixx kill.

He wouldn't have had daychat being a traitor, so we can rule out scum coaching where we can't see it, at least. Did I miss anything there?

@D&D what happened with your mission last night?

[JaeReed]

Frozen, pick me, jaereed, and worldz for the "putting the band back together" run. We're gonna free PV since hes town.

You mean the "Prison Break" run? Getting the gang together is a different run.
I also can't go on another mission. No runner can be in a mission 3 nights in a row iirc.

[JaeReed]

@jae or math : anyone tried to sabotage your mission in night 1?

I don't think our mission was sabotaged N1. At least, we weren't informed of it so I'd say it's a safe bet.

I have townreads on Sooper, FA, MathBlade.

I'm not sure Karnos' hammer and wagon movements should even be analyzed yesterday. Math might know more about the validity of that theory. He was confscum from daystart so anything he did is subject to wifom. The only thing that isn't is the bounty on Worldz and his not knowing whether it was better for him to be shot or lynched. I believe those were all strategic decisions from his side. The bounty could go either way, and should be looked at with his weird behaviour regarding whether to be shot or lynched.

Potential reasons for wanting to be shot:
- If he could get a mislynch on Worldz then he would be bulletproof and he'd be able to get Math mislynched. (most likely)
- If he lynched scum Worldz then the scumteam might be able to save him with a redirect or something to get Math mislynched.
- If Math scum then it gets them towncred for shooting him. (most unlikely)

Potential reasons for switching to wanting to be lynched:
- If Worldz town he realized if he got shot during the night then he's cleared him.
- If Math scum he realized the shot wouldn't get towncred due to him being a traitor. (unlikely because he'd be thinking about this from the start)
- If Worldz scum he decided against flat out bussing because that's two for the price of one if scum don't have a way to stop Math's shot going through.

[JaeReed]

Hey I will get to this in a bit can someone repost any questions they might have had for me? I plan to iso myself to this post when I can and will answer stuff from there.

I've been keeping up with reading so far but my uncle is in the hospital (throat closing up and no one knows why) so I'm not in a mind to actually play at this stage. Sorry. I'm just not dealing well even though they've stabilized him for now.

[JaeReed]

My reads list top to bottom:

Space Cowboy [hydra of Shiro and diamond Sentinel] -- Almost certainly town
Mcmenno -- Likely Town (because D&D is likely scum. However if D&D is town then McMenno is scum)
randomidget -- Likely town
PeregrineV -- Almost certainly town

Karnos had a trolling episode for SpaceCowboy and myself at the start of the game. viewtopic.php?p=8247350#p8247350 (Trolling Space Cowboy by saying it was real in RVS and accusing me of bussing SpaceCowboy when I simply agreed with the votes. His bullshit towards McMenno at the end made me and JaeReed both think that SpaceCowboy was likely town....I don't see any other way to interpret what Karnos was doing as anything but trying to get and Space Cowboy mislynched. Me because I knew his scum meta to a T (since I taught him) and SpaceCowboy because of an easy mislynch. The number one thing I taught Karnos about scum is to look like you passionately believe what you are saying. That's the one thing he did consistently even until the point I shot him. That and throwing WiFoM everywhere. Based on Karnos's play here I think it's almost certain that SpaceCowboy is town.

McMenno is likely town but not to the level of Space Cowboy. While it was possible it's something I put very low on my priority list because of the fact I was pretty sure Karnos was scum. Admittedly I was nervous about bias as I said with JaeReed, but that seemed very much like a scum claim. It's really the mechanics that make McMenno a likely townread here. McMenno and Karnos were likely polar opposites of each other. McMenno was a dayvig and Karnos a night vig. I don't think there's a possible way for McMenno and D&D mechanically to both be town. It's pretty much a 1 v 1 with D&D for McMenno and I would feel a lot more comfortable with both of them in prison and then not have to think about which is scum and which is town.

Random -- Based on Karnos's hammer could be town or could be scum. The more likely scenario is that Random is town. However the only way I see Random being scum is if D&D is also scum and if we have Karnos, D&D, and Random all scum in jail then maybe one or 2 more scum (I think 1) at most so this case I'm not worried about. I'd leave Random in jail at this point so I don't have to try to figure out the depths of Karnos's troll.

PeregrineV -- I think the fact he was imprisoned makes him town. I don't trust D&D's story at all as to how it happened as he doesn't seem to accurately portray House's thoughts at all. What I wouldn't give to be able to see that mission so I could figure some of this shit out. With likely at most one scum in prison and Karnos likely dead then I doubt that a scum would voluntarily imprison themselves. The only way Peregrine V is scum is if this was a gambit gone wrong by PeregrineV and D&D together in which they wanted to imprison House and instead shot him. Considering PeregrineV is allergic to gambits I'm not considering this option and I put him on levels of town equal to Space Cowboy.

In short I'd break out Space Cowboy or Peregrine V (strongly leaning the latter barring any other ideas), leave Random alone and put D&D and McMenno is a single cell far far away and lose the key to those cells.

My reads among the free are as follows

The remaining scum are likely in D&D Worldz and Sooper. With a very slim chance of ABR scum.
D&D is almost certain at this point, all that's missing is the flip. I've been scum with Sircakez and he limits posting as caught scum. The fact the Daenerys head is posting more than the Dragons head(SirCakez) backs up this theory. Furthermore followed by no one really defending D&D yet very little posting or asking him questions means the remaining scum are likely inactive OR just aren't saying anything else to create distance from the D&D lynch.
If JaeReed, FA, or KlingonCelt are scum they have done a DAMN fine job and deserve the world's biggest round of applause. These are very strong townreads.

This is basically my reads also.
Only difference is I'd lean more on breaking SC out over PV because I feel SC would be more likely to do something.
Last night I thought D&D had to be scum due to the way they pushed for a PV lynch. Then PV got jailed and it started to look like scum must be sabotaging the run. I think scum have to be on a mission to sabotage it.
Klingon isn't a strong townread of mine so I'd replace her with Sooper.

[JaeReed]

For other stuff I think just refer to the mission PT? If there are questions let me know.

[JaeReed]

FA do you have no questions for me? I feel like I haven't been adequately contributing.

@Klingon my read on you is separate from missions/PTs. Why are you focusing only on those as being a reason to townread someone?

[JaeReed]

Even if you shut down the prison run there is someone here who can still escape from prison so we won't get flips.

[JaeReed]

I can break out immediately.

[JaeReed]

I can't get stuck. That would require an instant roleblocker or something. My skill bypasses NAR. You could lynch me then I can escape the moment night starts, or whenever I feel like it during the night, really. The issue with that is we don't know how many scum are alive. There's a chance we lynch me then it's game over.

I do think we should prison break as well but it's also possible to lynch me and have me escape for one of the escapes. We also don't know if the prison break allows us to choose who to break out. My guess is it probably will but that's also something to consider.

[JaeReed]

Even if you shut down the prison run there is someone here who can still escape from prison so we won't get flips.

were you reading the adventure pt at all? or the question I just asked?

your ability is for you. we get the flips of the people who are not you and who can't escape

I think you misunderstood. You asked the mod if 2 players escaped from prison would the rest flip, which is correct, they would. This does not mean to say that if we shut off the prison break we'll get flips. Because I can still escape prison if sent there. Once no living players can escape from prison OR 2 players have already escaped. That's when we get flips.

[JaeReed]

ABR, D&D, Random

[JaeReed]

@Mod if one player remains alive in the game while being able to escape jail will the imprisoned players flip regardless of that one person still being able to escape if sent to jail?

[JaeReed]

If it's really not tied to my role at all then I'd almost say go ahead and block it tbh.

[JaeReed]

I chose Random for stats. I didn't have a read on him.
I chose D&D and ABR because I thought they were both town.

I think I only mentioned my read on D&D though if we're talking in thread?

[JaeReed]

No I just didn't end up putting all of my thoughts in the thread. The party was completely my own decision. For both of them. The only thing that wasn't was RR/Drixx infiltrating my mission.

D&D I mentioned a few things on why I thought they were town.
I mentioned early on that I had a townread on both Grovyle and ABR.

Was trying to combine mission success chance with townreads, and have my strongest ones in my run so I could claim my prison escape ability and talk about what to do with it. Was hoping ABR and D&D could get a read on Random overnight since I was null on him.

[JaeReed]

Spoiler:

Ok, so far what I am feeling pretty definitively here is that Grovyle & ABR are both town.

Cakez is pushing an angle I can't see coming from town, and the comment about Space Cowboy (who I also had bad vibes from) feels off as well.

VOTE: Dragons

If anyone wants me to back stuff up with quotes feel free to ask. I'm feeling kinda lazy so not gonna go through the casual chat again without prompting.

Gonna start looking into parties now, ABR.

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

UNVOTE:

This is a massive overreaction to an early wagon. I don't feel like scum!cakey would have an emotional outburst here and in this manner.

UNVOTE:

This is a massive overreaction to an early wagon. I don't feel like scum!cakey would have an emotional outburst here and in this manner.

Nope. Perfectly capable of faking it.

What I mean is that scum!cakez I feel is fairly confident in his ability as scum to talk his way out of a lynch.

Generally, I would find an overreaction to be suspicious, but this is someone that I feel is a decent scum player. I'd imagine him to be a little calmer over an early wagon as such.

I also find threatening to replace out to be below the belt as far as AtE goes (I get that not everyone shares the same moral code as I do so I don't expect everyone to be swayed by that) if you're scum pretending to be upset town. There are ways to AtE without that kind of angle.

You could probably argue that he's scum pissed at being caught for reasons he doesn't think are AI. It wouldn't be the first time I've misread cakez (actually I don't think I have ever correctly read him). I'll wait and see what Lilith has to say about my responses to her.

In the meantime I'd also like to know what FB thought of the outburst.

Generally, I would find an overreaction to be suspicious, but this is someone that I feel is a decent scum player. I'd imagine him to be a little calmer over an early wagon as such.

I also find threatening to replace out to be below the belt as far as AtE goes (I get that not everyone shares the same moral code as I do so I don't expect everyone to be swayed by that) if you're scum pretending to be upset town. There are ways to AtE without that kind of angle.

You could probably argue that he's scum pissed at being caught for reasons he doesn't think are AI. It wouldn't be the first time I've misread cakez (actually I don't think I have ever correctly read him). I'll wait and see what Lilith has to say about my responses to her.

I'm not arguing that he's scum or town based on him saying he would hypothetically replace out if he wasn't in a hydra, it's not alignment-indicative at all. Don't be swayed so easily, you pushover.

My point was more that I don't think scum!cakez resorts to AtE here. My main point was in the first paragraph, the rest was just to show my inner thought process and how it supports my conclusion there in my mind.

I can be a pushover, and I'll openly acknowledge that I'm weak to AtE and buddying, but I really think that was a town overreaction.

We didn't hate you. But you obviously harbored some vitriol towards us. You did curse. You insulted us several times. And you're wrong about us here - I don't know why you're trying to push us so seriously over a post Cakes made that sounds exactly like he did in Bloodborne. Stop.

-Daenerys

pedit: What was off about whatever comment on space cowboy? I believe cakes said they were feeling scummy, and you're getting bad vibes, so what gives?

I also think this is genuine self righteousness from this head, now that I've taken a step back to reread.

249 wasn't a bad post either from the dragons head. I agreed with him on Space Cowboy's 225, but what pinged me most was 240 as a reaction to the outburst. Having trouble articulating the issue exactly, but it doesn't read as genuine to me, and didn't at the time of posting either.

For me, you'd look at who I'm defending.
I just checked in my ISO and I have definitely stated most of my strong townreads. Given reasons for some, not for others.

Touche. Defense is a valid indicator of a townread, though I'd argue that nobody has been attacked enough to justify a defense at this point.

And...you're going to make me read your ISO aren't you? so much easier for me if you just........say the reads. In one nice little post. :/

I've still defended people.

I won't rank my townreads. I'll list them in order of how much information I feel I've given as to my reasonings for why they're townreads, though.

Grovyle, D&D, Math, ABR, RR

Here are the quotes pertaining to the reads you were asking about. As I said, was null on Random, he wasn't doing much, so there wasn't anything to talk about with regards to him.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: karnos
Our mission was a success.
ABR and D&D are decent town reads. As are Koggz

Who should be on the next missions?

Math, Jae, you, Koggz, random, us, Sooper
The pool of players is already pretty small which sucks

You townread both of the people you were in a mission with last night despite scum sabotaging it? Can you go into that? Do you think scum sabotaging it was something they could submit during the night that happened instantly, or something lined up during the dayphase on D1?

I don't trust mathblade or randomidget

Why the sudden turnaround on us and random? As far as I can recall you were townreading them and scumreading us.

Also, how is math scum?

-Daenerys

I never said I was townreading randomidget. By the way she posts, shes scum.

Okay. What specifically about their posts are scummy? And can you answer the other two parts of my questions?

-Daenerys

[JaeReed]

@D&D can I get reads from both heads please? Going through the ISOs you look town by play. Can you also paraphrase the posts in the mission PT where PV was pressured into doing the thing that sent him to jail?

[JaeReed]

There's another explanation for the House kill that has nothing to do with his role or the adventure PTs.

[JaeReed]

Argh.

^^ What is it?

Math was saying that scum knew what the reward was and tried to get on the mission to control it. When they didn't, they had to kill House because he got control of it. I don't know what evidence there is that scum knew what the reward was. Also, if they tried to do that then, it's likely that they would've tried on the first night.

But, if the mission was only announced later, that's fair enough.

-Froot

If we assume D&D is town, and that scum can't read the mission PTs, then he could have been killed for his end of day reads, since scum wouldn't have known the reads changed.

It's the only situation in my mind that makes sense for D&D to be town. But in that case for me it's town read vs town read and I have a stronger one on math. I didn't even know if I should voice the possibility but if we're looking at all angles possible then that is one.

[JaeReed]

Could klingon try to participate more as well?

-S

I apologize to everyone. I had some issues the past 72 hours. I can be here more now.

I can say this with extreme confidence: ABR, Sooper, FA, and MathBlade are Town.

I'm interested to know more about your ABR and sooper reads

ABR sent the first letter to Drixx. Who sends a letter to someone they're going to kill?

If ABR were Scum and the Scumteam planned on killing Drixx in the future, sending him a letter would be pretty extreme buddying.

Would ABR do that? I doubt it.

I also saw the letter that MathBlade sent. Same deal, it's very unlikely that Scum would send a note like that to an intended victim.

I mean sure, it's remotely possible, but not at all probable.

I can't say more, other than it has to do with my role mechanics.

The scumteam didn't plan on killing drixx. I have a hard time believing you're paying this little attention to the game as town.

You also expressly stated this day phase that you got a letter that was going to be sent to math, not that you received one that Math sent.

[JaeReed]

God damn it.
JaeReed WHY THE HELL would you depants me?!?!?!?!?!

It was necessary, just trust me on that. I don't think sooper or FA are scum in any case.

[JaeReed]

Why was I depantsed?

I want an explanation and summary right fucking now.

I'll give you one but it can't be right now, sorry. You'll just have to trust me for now that there is a good reason for it.

[JaeReed]

@jae is KC receiving message involved in your last post 3 lines?

I'm sorry I don't follow the question here. Could you rephrase?

[JaeReed]

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

I keep scumreading D&D really heavily and then keep running into this. I really doubt Cakez makes this post as scum. I just can't see it.

ABR, you said at the time you thought Cakez was perfectly capable of faking it. Have you seen this kind of behaviour from him before as scum?

[JaeReed]

Ok, now my vote definitely stays. They had 3(?) votes on them and blew up. There was no reason for it.

I feel like if SC is scum then D&D is not, and vice versa. Especially since I already took the stance that I couldn't see that outburst coming from Cakez as scum at this point in the game, and grovyle sort of reached out to D&D there as well, so if SC were scum with D&D then they could easily have backed off here instead of doubling down.

[JaeReed]

@McMenno - Will you post something soon? Or just ask for PT claims? *glares* The Great and Powerful Trixie is worried about McMenno.

I'm sorry, I've retreated into my pts to discuss the next course of action with my buddies

the great and powerful mcmenno thinks a space cowboy lynch is very good today indeed

he would not lynch mathblade or jaereed or karnos or grovyle

he would be okay with a worldzmine or d&d or detective moonlight lynch

VOTE: McMenno

The great and powerful Trixie is sad. The Great and Powerful Trixie has no buddies but you have buddies ergo you be scum. The Great and Powerful Trixie wanted you to be town.

McMenno said McMenno has multiple PTs.

McMenno says they have buddies.

McMenno only should be in Matrix PTs because Riggers hate Astral in Shadowrun.

McMenno must explain.

Basically
I found menno's ''who is in what PT'' definitely fishy because its rolefishing and it looks bad with this:

All kills/heals must specify which PT a kill or heal is taking place in.

He also just posted in the matrix pt as if he was posting in a scum pt and then 'fixed' by saying it was the wrong pt. This was right after his post that implied multiple pt's.
I know menno to be a memer so i dont mind that last part, i find the first to be more worrying.

Before moving votes, id like to hear from grovyle.

-S


Pedit: cowboy stop slipping and fight your stuff in your hydra pt. Its useless to see you argue here.

So, we have confirmation that he has multiple PT's. 100%.

We don't know what these PT's are.

How did the post he made sound like it was intended for a scum PT?

-Cerb

oh no, I seem to have slipped it up

what an unfortunate development

[JaeReed]

Im not allowed to quote but he said that he slipped and asked cowboy to help
Yet

oh no, I seem to have slipped it up

what an unfortunate development

I believe it was just a meme. A terrible one, but a meme. That does not change my opinion on the other points i made. Still waiting for grovyle, i dont like their semi lurking.

-S

Also wait, what? He said he slipped and asked cowboy to help? So...umm. He and Cowboy appear to be scum together?

-Cerb

Absolutely not, Cerb. he's trying to frame us. If need be, I might be able to "prove" that we are town.

Absolutely not, Cerb. he's trying to frame us. If need be, I might be able to "prove" that we are town.

Also, from the context given of the original slip in the PT, it appears his implication of you occurred at the same time as the apparent PT slip. The post he made in here wasn't nearly bad enough to get him lynched on it's own, so it's unlikely the pt slip occurred with the intent of framing you, ESPECIALLY given that you were already the most likely lynch for today.

This is why I need to know the details of this event.

-Cerb

I should be sleeping, but gotta make a few comments after McMenno's weird slip.

So here is the thing. Without breaking the rules I can't quote directly what he said in the matrix, but I can say what he said is started to look incredibly weird.

So he posts something along the lines of: 'oh no I slipped, give me advice to dodge the wagon' and then he calls out space cowboy by name.

And then her makes another post claiming the previous post was accidentally posted in the wrong pt.


So, not just scummy, he would have to be really bad scum or perhaps scum pissed off at his teammates, or throwing the game to post anything like that. I don't know the player, maybe someone who has played with him before can speak about whether or not he is likely to make such a grave error and not just slip himself, but also call out a scum buddy.

TBH, it sounds like a fool's tactic. Is there any chance that the game could include a role that has a win condition based on being sent to prison on day 1? Or, maybe I am just reading too much into it, maybe the first slip was real and this is just some lame misdirect slip.

I dunno. If there is some town incentive behind such a gambit I don't see it.

Karnos: the oh no post is the same one where he calls out space cowboy by name?

Karnos: the oh no post is the same one where he calls out space cowboy by name?

If so, incredibly likely that they're both scum, which means I need to go through HIS iso as well to figure out his positions.

FA I think that's the main points of relevance. Menno later vigged Space Cowboy, sending him to jail, and Menno claimed to have been trolling basically.

[JaeReed]

Quick note to Math: I wouldn't have outed you unless it was necessary. It'll be made clear once Worldz slot is replaced and up to date, so I really just need you to trust in that for now. My theories on teams fell apart and so I'm not sure. I need to read D1 again at the very least to have an idea of what happened with the flips in mind.

[JaeReed]

So here is the thing. Without breaking the rules I can't quote directly what he said in the matrix, but I can say what he said is started to look incredibly weird.

So he posts something along the lines of: 'oh no I slipped, give me advice to dodge the wagon' and then he calls out space cowboy by name.

And then her makes another post claiming the previous post was accidentally posted in the wrong pt.


So, not just scummy, he would have to be really bad scum or perhaps scum pissed off at his teammates, or throwing the game to post anything like that. I don't know the player, maybe someone who has played with him before can speak about whether or not he is likely to make such a grave error and not just slip himself, but also call out a scum buddy.

TBH, it sounds like a fool's tactic. Is there any chance that the game could include a role that has a win condition based on being sent to prison on day 1? Or, maybe I am just reading too much into it, maybe the first slip was real and this is just some lame misdirect slip.

I dunno. If there is some town incentive behind such a gambit I don't see it.

Well, I am in no PT right now. Not matrix, not astral, and certainly not a scum PT. He is definitely trying to frame me, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop falling for it.

He's a scumfuck who is trying to frame us.

VOTE: Mcmenno

So who confirmed the part of saying Space Cowboy?
Seems a little convenient.

I did, because that is what McMenno said.

At 2:42 McMenno said something about revealing information to watchers, no downside to it, blah blah. The timing here is interesting because this is immediately AFTER his slip was first noticed in the main thread.

At 2:53 he posts saying essentially "uh oh, I slipped, Space Cowboy please help divert the wagon"

Immediately after, 2:53 time stamp, he says "wrong private topic"

Like I said in my last post, it all seems pretty absurd, nobody slips like that twice in a row. I can't see the town incentive behind such a gambit, so my take is that McMenno is trying to cover the first slip with a second fake slip, trying to make it look like the first one was intentional after the fact. If McMenno flips scum, that would strongly change my opinion of Space Cowboy, because I don't see any scenario where scum!McMenno was actually slip twice and out his scum buddy.

OTOH, if McMenno is town, he has a lot of explaining to do.

[JaeReed]

@McMenno - Will you post something soon? Or just ask for PT claims? *glares* The Great and Powerful Trixie is worried about McMenno.

I'm sorry, I've retreated into my pts to discuss the next course of action with my buddies

the great and powerful mcmenno thinks a space cowboy lynch is very good today indeed

he would not lynch mathblade or jaereed or karnos or grovyle

he would be okay with a worldzmine or d&d or detective moonlight lynch

VOTE: McMenno

The great and powerful Trixie is sad. The Great and Powerful Trixie has no buddies but you have buddies ergo you be scum. The Great and Powerful Trixie wanted you to be town.

This is the original thing that was being pushed as a slip.

[JaeReed]

Scout was the first to out that he'd said anything in the PT that could be interpreted as a slip, and he tried to push it as memeing? Random popped in after RR said he wanted those who could read the PT/were in the PT to confirm, said he was reading up then disappeared (he did this a lot throughout the game iirc). Then karnos followed after with his post on what happened.

[JaeReed]

actually sooper slot outed the info as well disregard that.

Something went wrong there but the rest of it seems like preplanned. for a scum team with 2 or 3 memebers and a traitor its madness to just shoot each other like that.

MC is scum for no doubt though. that changes my reads around that point

The thing is, before that slip in the PT, Space Cowboy was already at L2. Menno had all of one vote on him, I think, from Math pushing that thing as a slip when it really reads more like Menno trolling regardless of alignment. It just doesn't make sense for Menno to put himself in the hot seat when SC was already looking like he was going to be lynched. And I think that regardless of alignment. Menno's actions just don't make sense.

[JaeReed]

I just lost a mafia game.
So its time to win a game here.....

I am on a 10 game losing streak...
:sigh:

@RR You answer my question?

~Fire

I won that one

so... space cowboy certainly looks a bit "panicked" after my slip, huh?

maybe he should "cool off" a bit soon

okay, there's no way space cowboy can be town

go get 'em, drones

Also, Space Cowboy is confirmed scum, lets get him!

they're being taken care of

now let's get more scum

VOTE: Worldzmine

oh, you won't have to worry about space cowboy anymore... :^)

and people don't flip when we lynch them

it looks like they...

got tha message



VOTE: Worldzmine

yes and I've sent my buddy space cowboy to prison to get loads of towncred

look at how well it's working /s

an anonymous dayvig in scum's hands... that would be quite powerful indeed

I will admit that I faked the slip... partly for the lulz and partly to see space cowboy's reaction, their wagon seemed very likely to derail

I felt their reaction was very bad so I shot them

admit that it was a mistake to fake some "slips" but it's better if I get lynched day 1 instead of in lylo so you can catch the real scum later

see y'all in prison

oh and I feel like worldzmine is town probably

both of them... if you fake one slip might as well go the full mile right

oh if sc is not scum dnd is probably scum, there was probably also some bussing going on

if sc was scum dnd is probably town

I don't have detailed thoughts because I'm phoneposting... prepare to be disappointed I suppose

I think jeaereed mathblade are town... koggz might be a sc buddy

[JaeReed]

Two slipps

people do one slipp but two slipps and the second one has a name inside it as buddy. its just means he wanted to wifom. but he didn't need to make SC look bad so why he outed that name there?

Killing SC right after they said they can prove their town is meaningful though. whatever was that wifom he decided to take it in jail with him.

Yeah I don't think SC and Menno could be scum together. Karnos' reaction to Menno's slip in the PT is weird and I'm not entirely sure what to read out of that, especially since this happened:

Okay prison = no flip, good point. I guess we can't immediately capitalize on the information gain after a lynch.

So McMenno, do you have any intention of explaining your strategy, or are you fine being read as scum?

The way Karnos was talking regarding the whole thing is weird.

[JaeReed]

I am almost thinking we lynch ABR at this point. Potential ABR and JaeReed team emerging.

ABR because to be quite frank I do not trust him and he will not explain how he is reading people as town or scum and why.
Therefore I do not trust him.

JaeReed is also likely now because at the point he did that only House, Kling, ABR, D&D, and Worldz were the ones who wouldn't have known my role. House is dead and Kling somehow got my message. This means unless any remaining scum are all in ABR, D&D, and Worldz then scum know who I am. The fact JaeReed also dodges the team question when he could have said any amount of people with a confidence level 1 is bullshit. The more likely scenario is someone in the mission PT listening to JaeReed: (FA, Sooper), Kling, or JaeReed is scum.

VOTE: Unvote

Also the conversation on SC and McMenno is kinda dumb. If D&D is scum he could have to give it to town on one scum the next or some other weird requirement we don't know. The first slip could have been a genuine slip or trolling or McMenno drawing attention to himself so it would be obvious he day vigged SC. The point is we don't know. To me if ABR and JaeReed are scum together then D&D almost certainly has to be scum unless ABR is framing D&D.

{D&D, ABR, JaeReed, Sooper}

I definitely don't want ABR shooting tonight because despite multiple requests he doesn't explain his reads. He could easily claim shenanigans and kill someone not on his list.

Math, I'm not going to bullshit a team for no reason when my reads on the remaining players are messed up as is. First, I need to sort whether my townreads on the players alive hold up with a reread. Because I'm certain I have to be townreading scum. That's the only way for things to make sense in any potential team. So I can't give you a team until I sort out who I'm currently townreading that I shouldn't be. Because anyone with eyes in this game could tell you the team isn't {Karnos, Klingon, Worldz, ABR}.

You need to be more patient. What do you think my motivation as scum would be for not answering that question? I simply don't know, so I can't answer. I don't see the point in stringing together a bunch of names when I'm questioning my read on the living players at the moment because something is not right with my thoughts on teams. I need to reread.

Current thoughts in my reread:
Remembered why I was townreading ABR, and that holds and puts him back as a TR.
Yume is still town.
Few more things from D&D ping me as town.

@FA since you wanted it claimed in the next post people made: I didn't target anyone last night with anything.

[JaeReed]

So, a more detailed paraphrasing of prison chat.

Space Cowboy was initially okay with being sent to prison, because he was apparently thinking scum!McMeeno would be lynched shortly. He asked if he could use some messaging power while in prison, mod said only powers that specifically say they can be used in prison can be used, so no. Space Cowboy posts gloatingly about McMeeno being hammered, and shortly later McMeeno joins the PT.

McMeeno links a video to elvis' jailhouse rock as his entry to the prison, and makes a short post that he has no regrets. Space Cowboy posts calling him scum, asks McMeeno so really, are you scum? McMeeno defends himself saying scum wouldn't get a dayvig in this game, power is too strong, and if he was scum why would he take the dayvig shot and claim it, pointing out he could have just anonymously taken the shot.

Space Cowboy responds that since the "dayvig" just sends to prison, it's not a real permanent death, it might be balanced with scum having it, so that doesn't mean anything.

McMeeno sarcastically responds along the lines of yeah right, I just wanted to clear my scum buddies mathblade, daenarys & dragons, and jaereed.

Space Cowboy responds saying he suspected mathblade + D&D, but jaereed is "interesting". Then he posts that he is wondering if all kills send to prison, or if some directly kill dead.

McMeeno indicates that he isn't believing a single thing Space Cowboy is saying.

Some junk back & forth posting.

Day 2 starts.

McMeeno asks if it's multiball, due to the 2 kills at night presumably.

Something about optional posting, and Space Cowboys says I take it he isn't your faction. [I'm lost as to what the posting optional thing was referring to]

McMeeno says yeah not my faction, because i am town and he is scum ["he" being me, they are talking about the public cop results]

McMeeno reacts to 985 as if it's the most absurd thing to say ever.

A little later McMeeno posts "you are actually town?"

McMeeno talks about he could have dayvigged me today if he saved it, and how he is really unsure about koggz, and wants to speak with her if she ever comes into the prison PT.

McMeeno says Space Cowboy is probably town, lets talk about the gamestate.

Space Cowboy says no idea, it seems bad, 2 dead town 2 jailed town, but if he can get broken out he can "do things", [obviously softing a powerrole]

Space Cowboy then says waiting for karnos to join in chat.

McMeeno questions why I don't just selfhammer [DUH, I want to flip, sitting in prison isn't going to give town the info they need]

Space Cowboy freaks out about JaeReed's 1061 , like he really wanted to see me just get quick-lynched.

SC complains about letting the conftown live. Corrects himself next post, *confscum. If SC ever dies and flips red, I'm going to laugh about this slip.

McMeeno asks if SC thinks it is multiball

SC is pretty sure it is, he says lots of things point to it <- 9am this morning

no further posts at this time.

Personally, my take is SC could still be scum, McMeeno seems pretty towny. I don't disagree with his point regarding his ability- if he was scum, why the fuck would he claim the kill he was making? he could have just taken the kill and stayed anonymous. Even better question: why would scum dayvig someone who is already largely read as scum, and potentially easily miss-lynched? Wouldn't scum go for a kill on a more obvtown player?

Also of note I think. This was after karnos was copped and revealed to be scum, though.

[JaeReed]

KC recieved a letter which was sent from ABR to drixx but not mine to drixx this is saying she could see the letters which were sent by ABR - something targeted ABR night 1

KC received a letter which was sent from Mathblade to me - the action must be on mathblade.

Oh lol, I see it.

[JaeReed]

wtf is the depantsed thing about

I outed Math's role to FA and Sooper last night.

[JaeReed]

Because anyone with eyes in this game could tell you the team isn't {Karnos, Klingon, Worldz, ABR}.
^^ Your quote

Let's look at the list of KlingonCelt, ABR, Worldz, D&D.

This is why your decision to depants me is troubling. Because in essence you would be betting that all the scum are in the pool of those players at the time you depantsed me you could add House as well.

IMHO you should be freaking out right now:
Because

A) There is scum in that adventure PT.
Or B) You weren't thinking about the possibility of scum in the hood pressuring you to do so.
Or C) The remaining scum team that is alive is entirely in that list. A list minus D&D you say anyone with eyes should not be believing.

So I am freaking out here wondering if I should just claim and if scum already knows what I am thanks to you. The question is why you aren't doing the same. Same with <redacted> and <redacted> and maybe <redacted>. Which means something is very very wrong.

ABR I think I misread you. You said you don't have a strongest townread and are an amnesiac who is going to be very very lazy and sleepy right? That is what I remember reading. Don't correct me if I'm wrong.

Now we further know that Kling intercepted my message.

This even further narrows the pool. So the question becomes why aren't you freaking out?

Add PV as well. So the pool was: Klingon, Worldz, D&D, ABR, House, PV. I thought House had to be scum because I thought there had to be scum in the ones that pushed you. So my pool there was {Klingon, ABR, House}. I thought there had to be scum in {PV, D&D}. I had townreads on FA and Sooper, but regardless of that if I didn't out your role it would have been bad at that point in time. That's all I can say right now. I get that you can't trust me right now, and I'm sorry, but I did what I thought was necessary.

Please don't claim until you at least know the reason and can make a level decision on it. That means after we get confirmation from Worldz slot about night actions.

I never said I'm not freaking out. I understand that I may have outed you to scum. But I also may not have. Currently, it looks extremely fucking likely, but I can't change that. All I can do right now is trust in FA's plan.

[JaeReed]

@jae he claimed the first one in 136 or the second one in his message to you?

The second.

[JaeReed]

I have two abilities. The ring and the prison escape thing. That's it.

I don't think you can argue that abilities make someone scum on their own. That said, there's conflicting information between Sooper and Kling so one of them is scum imo. Still haven't finished looking through the thread to figure things out fully.

@Math I thought it was better for town overall if you could still act last night, which is why I did what I did. At the time, to me, it seemed like the best action to take.

[JaeReed]

Thats important info

if your town that suggests scum has day actions - MC menno for example (cuase his day vig was private as well)

if there are enough town actions you an be useful for scum. for a fact it can be sueful for scum to detect wheter if someone is inside or outside a pt - but then there was already a karnoos doing that in them

My action to pass the ring to MathBlade was during the day (which means he could have confirmed that had he been on me last night).
Menno's dayvig was during the day as you pointed out.
Koggz sent me a drug during the day which made my next action loud, and all my actions as party leader that night loud if I chose to consume it.
As far as I am aware Koggz could use her ability to put someone in a neighbourhood at any time, as well. Basing that off the fact that she confirmed it was instant if she did it during the night (my thought at the time was we could lynch me, I could chat with Menno/SC, confirm whatever Karnos said, escape during the night and have a PT with someone + night message as it'd be hard for scum to mess with all of that to pass on info).

That's just the things I can think of off the top of my head.

[JaeReed]

Fine. Talk to me about Sooper and KC while I get dressed for work.

Regarding KC -- I find it odd I did not receive a single message last night. I know you got mine because of how you posted. I find it odd I did not get a message.

Regarding Sooper -- Are you arguing Sooper is telling the truth and is therefore scum?

It seems like you are starting from both people telling the truth and then finding scum and still assuming they are telling the truth. If either one of them is scum what they have claimed gets treated with as much truth as a used car salesman with a quota.

Were you expecting a message? Who from? Why?

Honestly anyone :/ I had thought JaeReed townread me pretty well and knew <redacted>. I also thought more people townread me so. Guess it was more a reality check.

The only information I had worth sending you if my message even went through was something I wasn't allowed to send you because it directly interfered with how you could claim the karnos shot. Sorry.

I get that you don't hold the same opinion as I do in the best times to out things and I'm sorry. With the information I had I thought it was the best course of action at that time.

[JaeReed]

Sooper was detective moonlight

[JaeReed]

Long weekends are the worst for anything that requires actual thought.

Does anyone want anything from me? If not I'll get back to trying to look through.

Math I feel has to be town because of the magnitude of anger at me for depantsing. I was getting paranoid but I can't see Math getting quite that mad as scum.
Sooper had a genuine frustration D2 regarding ABR not explaining reads that I resonated with at the time. He was more like the scout I am familiar with. My concern was that it was due to karnos interactions that I was townreading him but to my memory it was actually the hard defending and pushing for answers culminating in a genuine frustration leak. I'm still concerned just because I know I have reason to want him to be town because otherwise I outted math to scum.
FA is town. I'll just say because yume was town for now but there is stuff FA has done to prove that in her own right I think.
I think ABR is town too. His early D1 gave me a pretty strong townread and when I reread it I got the same vibes.

NC slot is doing stuff now so I wanna see how that goes. I'll likely end up just sheeping FA at this point. There are a lot of things from D&D's early play that have me swinging from town to scum to town and the AtE is something I need to be wary of too. I've seen a few things that I thought couldn't come from scum but the same goes for everyone in this game.

I'm still not sure on why klingon outing that she read the messages is town indicative. Especially since she lied originally and said it wasn't anything to do with her role when we were speccing whether that was a town ability to have.

That's where my thoughts are at right now. Bit of a mess so continuing my reread unless to answer questions.

[JaeReed]

seems karnos submitted an accusation on my slot. is this being taken into account?
at the moment, i only know the results of the first mission, the one sabotaged by scum that was picked by Jaereed and resulted on a cop on karnos.
i support a D&D lynch. could someone direct me to a recent case post if there is one/other reasoning? i want them lynched for their day 1 play, so i don't feel very updated.

i take back what i said earlier, by the way. could i please get a list of who explicitly claimed what actions/roles?

Karnos accusation gave him either bulletproof if he got a successful town lynch on the accused or made him known to the scum team if a successful scum lynch on the accused. The scum team could recruit him by using Mr Johnson to try to make him party leader. I think. Its been a while since I read his flip.
So the accusation on your slot could be bussing to try to make himself known or it could be him aiming to be bulletproof.

There were two missions N1. I made the teams {jae, math, grovyle} {d&d, random, abr}. My team wasn't sabotaged and we got the public copping (reasonably rational/drixx also infiltrated the mission). D&D's team was sabotaged but still passed the mission with the reward being they can block off a mission from being run.

I don't remember if anyone has been doing actual casing this game but the other reasoning is that n2 the second team for the mission ended up with d&d the only survivor because of scum sabotage again. PV got sent to jail during it and house outed his role after that. House also sent a message to ABR saying if he died that night d&d was scum. I assume from outing his role (which my understanding is he could essentially confirm someone as town).

An addition to the claimed roles is I can escape prison once sent there.

[JaeReed]

VOTECOUNT 3.3

Daenerys and Dragons (1):

Klingoncelt

SooperDetective (1):

Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting (6):

Daenerys and Dragons, SooperDetective, Not Chara, JaeReed, Frozen Angel, Mathblade

With 8 Alive, it takes 5 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2016-10-07 14:00:00)

Not Chara replaces WorldzMine. It is awesome. Please thank them immensely.

Deadline rebooted now.

We have 3+ days @KlingonCelt.

Not sure where you get 15 hours from.

Deadline's 3 days 15 hours from this post, btw.

Alright, Math this is actually bugging me at this point. How are you misreading so many posts this badly lately?

What's worse is in any other world I feel like that would have gained an fos from you, and it didn't. Plus you keep ignoring me with regards to how Klingon having read your message makes her town.

Like, am I derping here or is this really out of character for you? Are you just pissed at me so you're not answering my Klingon question and she's seriously that conftown to you that a perceived lie about the time we have left to lynch still couldn't possibly be scummy from her?

[JaeReed]

Why did you have a townread on worldz? Just the bounty?

Also to the spec that ABR and D&D are partners... Do people think ABR's early D1 push was a bus? He was pretty adamant about them being scum.

[JaeReed]

@JaeReed I am looking for a post # of an unaddressed question and can't find it. Can you requote or tell me the post?

I...thought I had posted multiple times about not understanding how Klingon's interception of your message made her town, but I must have just been thinking it and not ended up posting Sorry.

As I have stated numerous times I feel KlingonCelt is town. KlingonCelt as scum absolutely would not have done what they did IMHO.

They would have no reason to hit me as scum all they would see is messages and whatever "nerfed" is (which I am not going down that road per KC's ask). That is clearly town Kling trying to determine my alignment and if I am telling the truth. I would expect a scum Kling to use it on a well regarded townread to info mine. When she did I wasn't a well regarded townread.

This is Kling town IMHO.

Pedit just saw Frozen Angel's post

I do think there are reasons Klingon would hit you as scum. As an example, you'd have a lot of town roles on you last night to make sure that shot went through, so it's basically an information mine. I also think your point about the way she's pushed on being telling to her alignment isn't quite right... Because she hasn't been pushed on hard this game.

I've seen Klingon as town in C9++ where Nahdia pushed her to a mislynch. Klingon there was more involved in the game and actively trying to do something. I only saw fragments of Bloodborne, but I'm getting pinged off what I did see because I found Klingon there relied on doing things in mission PTs to get townread. She also replaced into my first newbie where she was mislynched within 48 hours - and still she managed to somehow be more involved there than she is here.

Then you've got the fact that she has contradicted herself at least twice in this day phase with regards to her role yet no one jumps on the lynchbait? To me, that points more toward her being mafia than town.

Which makes me paranoid as all hell when you say you know Klingon and this is definitely her as town. Especially when I know that townreading all of {Math, FA, Sooper, D&D, ABR} has to be incorrect at this stage. Then there's the chance I'm overthinking things and it really just is D&D remaining or something.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: D&D

Ok. I'm probably full derping in questioning my Math read, anyway.

Random threw shade on me for putting D&D in a run N1, saying it was "weird" that I did, despite coming in to D2 townreading both ABR and D&D apparently, and despite me defending D&D D1 due to Cakez AtE.

I wondered if maybe ABR could have been bussing D&D and that caused Cakez to AtE the way he did out of frustration of being bussed so hard and so early, but reviewing his ISO in the two games that FA linked he didn't bus his partners that early and the tone of all of his posts seem quite different to what his tone is here, so I'm more inclined to believe it was a genuine push from ABR. He feels more aggressive in this game when trying to lynch D&D. I'll try to bring up the posts in a sec.

[JaeReed]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Daenerys and Dragons

I thought we got along fine in Bloodborne. The vote is based on this game.

Grovyle is plainly town, your bandwagon vote is scummy as hell.

Scum would neither go after the party leader if he was town nor scum. They would suck up to him or at least be neutral so they get selected in the mission. Grovyle is confirmed town.

Let me reohrase that. Scum would not go after the day 1 party leader, whether the party leader is town or scum.

Never make a deal with a dragon.

Vote for Dragons with me to ensure victory.

There's no point in a RVS / guess the setup vote on the face.

Using bad and incorrect mod meta to tunnel someone is not townie at all
I kind of get what you're saying about scum not wanting to push the party leader but I don't think it makes them "conf town"

If Jae is scum it's an easy way for Grovyle to distance from a buddy early on without actually hurting the chances of them getting on the run team
If Jae is town it puts pressure on a townie in a position with a lot of power

-dragons

Another scummy post. Look man, I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm good at it. Trust in me, dragons is scum.

If Jae is scum it's an easy way for Grovyle to distance from a buddy early on without actually hurting the chances of them getting on the run team
If Jae is town it puts pressure on a townie in a position with a lot of power

The whole post is scummier, but this part doesn't even make sense. No townie thinks that way.

Dude you're caught. First you tried to make it seem like a personal bias but we don't have an adverserial relationship so it comes off as fake. Then you make up bad reasons to defend your bad FB vote despite acknowledging why I'm saying he's town is valid. You're entire strategy has been exposed, please die now.

I didn't curse at you. I wasn't mad at you and if people read the actual PT they would see that.

Our interaction was basically

Me: "If you didn't stop me, we'd have been way ahead."

You:"Yeah, sorry, I know I shouldn't have stopped you!"

Jaereed, Dragons is scum. If you want missions involving heavy combat and stealth, such as kidnapping, murder and scouting, I'm your guy. Pair me up with a IT guy, a demolitions guy, and we're in business. If you select other missions, I'm fine waiting until the next round.

I didn't curse at you. I wasn't mad at you and if people read the actual PT they would see that.

Our interaction was basically

Me: "If you didn't stop me, we'd have been way ahead."

You:"Yeah, sorry, I know I shouldn't have stopped you!"

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8075171
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8075175
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8075184
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8080724

etc etc

If anyone reads that last link they can see we weren't hating each other by that interaction.

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

So you stopped me from lynching Nahdia in a pivotal moment of Bloodborne which then cascaded in a series of catastrophes and lead to a town loss, and we all got over it, but if someone else "misreads" you, then it's unfair and you want to replace out? Seems legit.

So I'm really pissed off at shit IRL and this game isn't helping.
Sick of being mislynched by complete fucking dumbasses who have no fucking clue how to read me and it will cloud my judgement so I'm gonna let Lilith take charge for a bit.
I would have probably replaced out at this point if I was solo ftr

-dragons

UNVOTE:

This is a massive overreaction to an early wagon. I don't feel like scum!cakey would have an emotional outburst here and in this manner.

Nope. Perfectly capable of faking it.

Scum would neither go after the party leader if he was town nor scum. They would suck up to him or at least be neutral so they get selected in the mission.

Grovyle is confirmed town.

That's a strong statement. Odd for someone to say someone is "confirmed town" based on a handful of posts D1.

Because I'm certain. I spend most of day 1 making non-committal posts and giving zero reads until I'm sure, but scum came out early to play today so let's capitalize on it.

Generally, I would find an overreaction to be suspicious, but this is someone that I feel is a decent scum player. I'd imagine him to be a little calmer over an early wagon as such.

I also find threatening to replace out to be below the belt as far as AtE goes (I get that not everyone shares the same moral code as I do so I don't expect everyone to be swayed by that) if you're scum pretending to be upset town. There are ways to AtE without that kind of angle.

You could probably argue that he's scum pissed at being caught for reasons he doesn't think are AI. It wouldn't be the first time I've misread cakez (actually I don't think I have ever correctly read him). I'll wait and see what Lilith has to say about my responses to her.

I'm not arguing that he's scum or town based on him saying he would hypothetically replace out if he wasn't in a hydra, it's not alignment-indicative at all. Don't be swayed so easily, you pushover.

Lilith and I haven't discussed any reads yet besides both agreeing that ABR probably has a grudge against us

Randomidget is always against me, Cerb is vocally against me thinking I am a bad person, you are a friendly dude SirCakez, I fully like and enjoy playing with you and you are a great guy. Your hydra is completely fine, you guys are fine. I just think you're scum.

I don't have any problems with you either
But it really felt like, at least with the initial naked vote, that you just wanted to PL us in revenge or something akin to that.
That assumption was probably wrong since you've followed up more at least.

Hell no. I've consistently said that it's due to your behavior in this game, and nothing else. I don't want revenge against anybody, I'm here to win this game. The only player that I am at odds with is randomidget because he's acidic towards me.

McMenno vote D&D

VOTE: McMenno

Sorry dude

The last post was him voting Menno after he sent SC to jail I think, where he was basically being policy lynched (at least that was my take on the happenings; though some people were very vocal about scumreading him for it). I thought it was worth showing just how long it was before ABR switched to anyone but D&D. So basically, if one of them is scum I really think the other has to be town.

[JaeReed]

I'm here. Mostly drunk tonight but if you have questions please ask.

I went over my D&D vote at the start of this day and last night when I was speccing stuff happening. I don't really have much to add there. Got kinda distracted with other stuff that happened this day phase.

[JaeReed]

Math you still around?

[JaeReed]

Ah, I'm pretty lucky that you checked in again then!

I wanted your opinion on whether Titus would likely include something as OP as what D&D is describing their role to be. I don't have any experience with her as a mod to know how far the wifom would go. My only things I can guess off is Varsoon's Bloodborne.

[JaeReed]

To be clear, the way I'm reading it is D&D can give out guns every night to people with the only restriction being not the same person each night, and also they can shut down missions from being run each night.

But also the N1 reward was to shut off a mission permanently, and I can't see a reason for that if a player could do that already, y'know?

But there's no reason for D&D to claim that if it's not their role, and also we have more than one saying that the N1 reward was to shut off a mission permanently.

Maybe I'm not thinking along the right lines here. Also were you told that you had to specify where you were targetting? That means potentially ABR could shoot in prison yeah? That expands the flip pool I think.

[JaeReed]

The gun shot. They said that you have to specify in which thread you're shooting. I'll grab the quote.

[JaeReed]

We give out guns nightly that have to specify the thread they're shooting in (this part is pretty vague, but it worked for Math fine)

This, Math.

I'll also check tonight in the mission PT over everything Sooper has said and send a night message on whether I think it's possible since I did bring up the D&D scum possibility.

FTR it'll be the first time I'll attempt to send one all game, so any that people think I might have sent prior, I didn't.

[JaeReed]

Yes I did. I shot Karnos and had to specify Karnos. No clue if it would work in prison.

You only had to specify the person, and not which thread they were in?

[JaeReed]

From what dragons head said, you should have had to. It seems like a direct contradiction if you didn't. I can't imagine Titus not being literal enough to have mentioned that.

Also, if you're shooting someone it shouldn't matter what thread they're in, right? Because if they're alive and unlynched they are in the main thread, and if they're alive and lynched they're in prison thread. So it doesn't make sense to have that kind of clause.

If I'm right, then that makes D&D confscum, which means that they're giving guns to people they think have bad reads, because I couldn't work out how logically they had a stronger townread on you based off D1 than literally anyone else. The answer is they didn't. They thought your read on karnos was bad and gave you a gun to shoot him. They thought ABR would stick to his scumread on you and gave him a gun to shoot you, while probably thinking karnos would flip town due to shenanigans.

That's my hypothesis. Which would then make both yourself and ABR conftown if D&D flips scum.

[JaeReed]

I think Titus is literal enough in her thought process that she would have mentioned to you the conditions of the gun that you received if you had to target in a specific thread. The idea that you have to target in a specific thread is kinda weird anyway for this purpose because you would theoretically always target in the main thread. Unless there was a way to get around any protectives by targeting the same person, but in a different thread.

[JaeReed]

That last point is kinda a throwaway ftr if anyone is a protective I really don't want you to hint at anything rn. Just want ideas on the plausibility of the theory itself.

[JaeReed]

Might have defaulted. Eh, sorry. This may have been a waste of time. You're probably right.

Sorry for keeping you up. Goodnight.

[JaeReed]

And again you're being a bit selective - if we're assuming D&D's claim is accurate, why wouldn't they have tampered with the mission you and Jae were on on the first day?

Why would they have?

[JaeReed]

If I'm right, then that makes D&D confscum, which means that they're giving guns to people they think have bad reads, because I couldn't work out how logically they had a stronger townread on you based off D1 than literally anyone else. The answer is they didn't. They thought your read on karnos was bad and gave you a gun to shoot him. They thought ABR would stick to his scumread on you and gave him a gun to shoot you, while probably thinking karnos would flip town due to shenanigans.

Math shot karnos because of the guilty result, I don't know what their read was during D1 but I don't think giving the gun was related to the read on karnos. There might be another read of Math's which is bad (like their read on us!) About ABR's read on Math, you could be right. Following that logic, it'd imply that your reads are close to correct - if I were scum!D&D, I'd much rather give a gun to you than trust ABR's reads not changing but a reason not to is if you're not likely to shoot town. Anyway, I think this is a bit speculative.

I'm going to be around now because it's daytime for me and we'll vote for D&D later on as well. I'm really not keen on NC's posts there, it's possible it's scum and coasting to the end of the day. I was thinking about lynching it today and then keeping D&D around to discuss who gets the gun tomorrow (Jae/FA?) but maybe that's not as useful when we're close to the end of the game and I still think D&D is scum. Any thoughts from people who are around? I also don't think people have been scumreading Worldz/NC as strongly as we have.

-Froot

Math was with me in voting karnos D1 because he went for this weird angle of "why is it bad if scum go on missions", which he argued fervently in a manner that Math insisted they taught him during a previous game where they were scum together.

Now, if karnos had flipped normal scum this spec wouldn't be happening in the manner it is. He flipped traitor.
So, my thoughts. Math either inadvertently bussed... Or D&D thought karnos was town and gave Math the gun accordingly due to their read on him.

[JaeReed]

The reward could have gone to anyone, it just happened to land with us. Its a coincidence.

I mean we have given up we're just not scum. Neither of us enjoy posting in this game because it's just a circlejerk.

-dragons

Dude as far as point 2 I'm fucking trying but all the evidence points to you. I actually think there's shit that points to you being town but I can't weigh it against what points to you being scum. Like, if ABR wants to shoot me for this I'll gladly take the bullet but I am fucking conflicted. I honestly feel like your flip would be best but lynches don't even give that.

So it's weighing up at the base who is more likely to be scum regardless of other people's flips. Which so far points to you. I get that I might also be confbiasing because of outing Math to Sooper and FA last night, but I can't figure it to make things ok with anything but a you lynch today. Like, maybe NC? But I am inherently against lynching replacements without them having time to do shit for their slot.

It's not that it's a circlejerk anymore than any other game is. It's that I can't justify a townread on your slot anymore based off the way shit has played out anymore than I could justify a townread on a slot that quickhammered someone in place of some guy flipping mafia roleblocker later. Preferably? I want your flip. I want ABR to shoot you so I know what alignment I'm working off with your interactions. But I don't want to direct him.

Uhhh as far as the 1st bit it was more a general statement of whether they'd have one thing in the game but also an unlimited player action for essentially the same thing. It has no bearing on who exactly gained control of it.

What was the choices for N1 mission again?

[JaeReed]

I hammered space cowboy release instead of PV release despite thinking Math could be scum and despite thinking ABR was almost certainly town.

I'm sorry.

[JaeReed]

I thought that Cerb might have done the same thing as Nahdia. I worked out pretty early what Nahdia had done as I'd messaged Titus when I realized it might be possible to do exactly what Nahdia did. I believe my wording was something like "I'm not gonna be a douche and actually test it" which is funny when you consider Nahdia did it lol. Titus told me she was aware of the issue and I connected the dots.

[JaeReed]

I think we would have won if I hammered PV. I should have listened to my townread instead of my scumread.

I also hinted heavily at ABR to basically shoot Klingon last night. I did try to send a message to FA with my FOS'es being one of klingon/sooper because contradictory roles, but I also had Math/Klingon as a pair.

I really don't get why PV was clear. That's probably also on me, sorry.
Math was also being really contradictory and I just handwaved it for most of the game instead of looking more at them. It was only when I realized my townreads had to be wrong because I couldn't make a team make sense without them that I started thinking I had to actually re-evaluate my Math read.

[JaeReed]

Also yeah fb played great as always. I should have listened to him more because I know he's generally right when it comes to his townreads, so if he didn't have Math in townreads it was likely a good idea to be more wary of them.

Also FA you were really town, even if I didn't decide to sheep everyone who played with Yume in the past that she was town for contributing.

[JaeReed]

It was a pleasure to play with everyone. I probably should have replaced out when my uncle ended up in hospital because I spiralled with my depression and it made it very hard to focus on the game, but I was determined not to force someone else to read everything and also not to make deadlines draw out again or to make Titus have to try to find another replacement. My decision to not replace out was probably a bad one and likely also one of the reasons we lost the game because I never finished my reread and had a lot of points against Math from early on in my notes once I knew that karnos was traitor.

I'm so sorry to everyone who is upset at the loss for that. I also am sorry to Titus because I ended up offloading on her a lot and she was great with putting up with me. I think the idea was really neat. I misunderstood things about my own role which made me get into silly arguments about it instead of focusing on what was important. Playing with only scum chosen flips was really hard as town but I thought it was a neat idea and I had fun trying until I broke from outside influences. Thanks Titus for asking me to join, even though I kinda messed up ^^;

[JaeReed]

best move town made in this game was jae forcing mathblade to speak with an infuriating restriction. i read that part and i was rolling haha

<3 It was probably a little too hard, but since Math was scum I REGRET NOTHING.

[JaeReed]

best move town made in this game was jae forcing mathblade to speak with an infuriating restriction. i read that part and i was rolling haha

<3 It was probably a little too hard, but since Math was scum I REGRET NOTHING.

It was trolly.

I was hoping it would act like a night action leash.

How could it have been a leash?

I'm really curious as to whether Math really wanted that ring I'm not sure whether it would have been useful for them as scum.

[JaeReed]

Not sure if this is the right time to ask, but will we get released the night actions and messages and such? Also the messages that would have been sent last night?

[JaeReed]

I just wanna quit drawing BP proof scum.

That is 3 scum games in a row now with it :/

I wanna quit drawing town.
16 games on here outta 17 I think.
The last one was a troll game by nahdia and beeboy where they made everyone jesters with only 1 town and 1 scum. I don't really count that as not drawing town because everyone was self aligned really.

[JaeReed]

best move town made in this game was jae forcing mathblade to speak with an infuriating restriction. i read that part and i was rolling haha

It was pretty funny

The Great and Powerful Trixie agrees but The Great and Powerful Trixie found it hard.

I really hope you went and watched the episodes pertaining to The Great and Powerful Trixie.

[JaeReed]

@Math this link doesn't accurately portray Trixie but is still one of my favorite lines.

[JaeReed]

Nahdia jests. It was awful. Most of us were jesters and forbidden from claiming it. There was one town, and one scum, and it was painfully obvious who was who I think.

I was trolled most. I picked 3 friends. Charl/Bellaphant/Plotinus if I remember correctly. beeboy decided to give me Ranger because I idolize her. Then put me with Charloux who picked me, and then gave me the ability your biggest fan which allowed me to force Charl (who was JaeReed) to vote with me.